T'Pol I believe. And the whole time I watched Enterprise back in the day all I ever thought was "why would a Vulcan get a boob job and lip injections?" It's illogical!
It's weird. The Enterprise-era Orions are almost cartoonish in their visual appearance, and yet they seem more... I dunno, "appropriate," I suppose? The Discovery Orions just look like humans who happen to have green skin. Granted, Orion FEMALES have always looked like humans who just happen to be green, but the almost cartoonish look of the males in ENT seemed to suggest that the Orions had a very obvious sexual dimorphism.
Female orions might look human but they are still 90'th percentile in femininity /attractiveness and not like an average human female. Culturally it's clear that the writers were inspired by the Barbary corsairs with the Orion culture. I think they were way more interesting and Discovery's treatment seems pretty low effort by comparison.
This is a constant problem, not just in Trek. Even given technological & makeup limitations, aliens in earlier Trek at least felt alien *psychologically*. They may have been sympathetic, & people could identify them, but they were also clearly something beyond the human mindset. It's an empathy problem, I think. For all folk talk about inclusion & understanding different perspectives, there's little actual evidence for even understanding the idea that - for example - the sexual dimorphism prevalent in one sapient species may be so extreme that we get civilisations like the Orion. Even the more fleshed-out species have facets that simply wouldn't make sense for humans: the ultra-logical Vulcans having a deeply ritualistic & spiritual culture, the Klingons being a galactic power despite an honour system that rewards promotion by death, Cardassians managing to survive despite provoking several of the galaxy's most belligerent empires from a resource-starve homeworld. Their minds are alien - it's humans who are missing something. Aliens arent just quirky neurodivergent humans cosplaying, they're supposed to transcend immediate human understanding & prompt humanity to meet them halfway
(Regarding the Orion specifically, I think there's an argument to be made that they are a pastiche of Edgar Rice Burroughs' aliens, who were the original "hot alien woman with a different skin colour" & whose males were often huge & imposing. )
@@alharron2145 It's pretty obvious that the writers of Discovery are very anthrocentric, and in order to be civilized, an alien species has to be nearly indistinguishable from their human counterparts, different skin colors and facial prosthetics notwithstanding. It's really sad and conceited and honestly very lazy. These new writers are terrible stewards of the Star Trek property. They trample all over it as if to say, "I MADE THIS" instead of being respectful of what was already established and what was already working. Yes, sometimes change is good. But change for change's sake is worthless and pandering.
@@TheMegalusDoomslayer too be fare most people that hate it today hate it because they find shit to hate in everything else... Yes it was run by a bit of a misogynist but if you watch some if it and especially as the show continued it even made running jokes about how some of the more sexist stuff wasnt ok
God, how the hell does Discovery make plain green body paint look bad? They made 23rd Century Klingons look like mutant Uru-kai, the Andorians have so much unnecessary face ridges, the Trill have unibrow spots. Can they adapt one alien race right?
People were mostly upset that it didn't incorporate books/games and other non canon content. Mainly FASA from the 70's. But in hindsight, it did a hell of a lot better respecting Alpha canon than the current live action series. And it gave us a good story on the origin of human looking Klingons.
I still remember when Temple of Doom was the bad Indiana Jones movie. Then Kingdom of the Crystal Skull came out and Temple of Doom got _so much better._
@@scockery It was her. The story goes that Big Show was encouraged to pick her up and shake her violently like a ragdoll, and he was hesitant because he thought he would seriously hurt her.
@@Velldog It's supposed to be Star Trek. When was the last time a species wasn't a single race with a singe culture (except for the plot)? Also I wrote that they might have shaved but I doubt it since they have some stuff on their hads.
Std is truely the most grotesque sci fi in all of tv history. How it continued to get funding despite abysmall ratings is something i just cant make sense of.
Didn't Journey To Babel have a normal sized Orion male surgically altered to look like an Andorian? He was surgically altered, but I don't think they'd shave a foot or two off a guy's bones in the process. How did those Orions shrink so much between ENT and TOS? Did the Orions steal Kahn's DNA too?
Larger, more muscular Orions first appeared in The Animated Series. They weren't quite the enormous dudes of ENT, & they wore more clothing (even their heads were covered, so we can't directly know if they were bald), but there was still a fair through-line to Enterprise in a general "TOS era is always a bit different" way. Still, it's easily conceivable that there were outliers like Thras (who was still 6' tall) who could be surgically altered to resemble other species, just as the comparatively short Arne Darvin was really a Klingon. The problem with modern Trek is they've inverted it: now hair & human-average build is the norm, making them less distinctive & interesting as a result. Has there been a single big & bald Orion on Discovery, SNW, or even LD at all? I'd be happy for intraspecific variation (weird that we haven't had a bald, muscular, female Orion yet) but modern Orion men being effectively just human men with green skin is enormously unimaginative & dull.
In STD they wear a prosthetic mask that covers most of their face. It makes the actors look like they got an injection of botox. Once again it's another waste of money, when a simple green bodypaint (like on ENT and TOS) would do the job and cheaper.
You may on Lower Decks the they had an episode with an Orion pirate outpost and it was pretty much exactly like how the Orions were depicted on Enterprise.
I like how they explained the ridges/no-ridges difference. And it didn’t require an entire story arc from a prequel. Simple: the ones with ridges are Northerners
Orion male/pirate in normal star trek Big, strong looking, usallu bald, dangerous, can snap anyone in 2. One of the reason to be feared. Rough looking Orian females: sexy, sending pheromones arround controlling men. Manipulation and subterfuge.. The real slave master. Orion on STD Male: has hair that is shaped to be male kpop idol dresses as a kpop male. Thin and small, doesn't show any physical treat to be feared. Small and submissive, Female: even weirder, not sexy, not showing manipulation or subterfuge. Bigg green lips. And very very weird green color. Clothes like a biker, not showing that she uses her natural pheromones to controll people.
In complete fairness, it's possible that, in the natural diversity of an entire species, the ENT Orions we saw were just from a culture/region/profession/demographic/etc. that was more likely to have males who were roided out hunks of beef... On the other hand, this would require Trek to feature an alien race with subtlety and internal variety, besides their "hat." Classic Trek was not great at this (The Klingons were probably the richest developed-mostly as in "they characters from multiple points on the 'honorable' gradient," "some of them were not warriors by profession-at least, not all the time" and "they sometimes produced works of fine art"), and NuTrek's only tool in this area is the Retcon Mallet of Good Fortune.
But they were trying to put forth that only a specific type can be like the Orion syndicate. Strong and powerful looking men and hot ass women who are also cunning and smart
I mean all we can really draw from this is the bouncers at the slave market are big and bald. All the bouncers I know in really life are big bald men. But most humans and normal sized with hair too.
So.... you saw a small portion of their people and assume they are ALL like that. That's like going to kid rock concert and think the entire world looks like those people....
And the female Orions were always depicted with hair. It's not a stretch to believe that male Orions are able to grow hair, too. But they could shave it or go bald, just like human men.
it's odd to see Brent Spinner again, but I guess it's a common thing for every star trek to show up some actors cameos from Previous Star Treks but with a different role and character.
On TOS, they said that Rigellians shared some anatomy with Vulcans. I thought that Orions were right next to Rigel colonies. It would make sense that (much like Nimoy’s makeup having a greenish hue) the Orions then would also have blood that is green. Thus, I am now totally confused as to why the Lower Decks Orion girl has red blood on her.
Nothing saying male Orions can't have hair. It just looks weird. But then again the Discovery Orions look weird even without the hair. Something about the texture of the makeup I think. Also isn't Discovery suppose to be a post-apocalyptic future? The fact that the Orions look more clean cut and formal after then apocalypses then they did before is just weird and off-putting.
Yeah! I greatly enjoyed that depiction in the show. Kinda like the Hirogen. Large and intimidating! Very predator-like in comparison to us puny humans. Forget STD. It's a farce. ☹
Another piece of evidence that demonstrates that Discovery, Strange New Worlds, and Picard take place in a separate universe from the Prime Universe (Enterprise, TOS, Next Gen, DS9, Voy, LD, Progedy, and the first ten movies).
What about the Orion band playing instruments whilst Vina danced in The Cage? None of them looked like the ones in Enterprise-just guys painted green in dark wigs.
@@nathancrawford6029 What about them? I guess like humans, Klingons, etc. they have individuals of different sizes and shapes - besides, makeup and budgets improve. But nothing about the Orions in "Enterprise" counters TOS (beyond the blue Oree-Ons of the animated series - a different species or race? The colorist was color blind? Mistakes slip through the cracks?). The shows in the Discovery Universe change almost everything on purpose, seemingly just because. To be fair the creaters of "Discovery" may never have seen "Star Trek" and may have only heard about it from friends. The Enterprise grows from 289m (2254 "The Cage") to about 450m ("Discovery") and then back to 289m (2265 "Where No Man has Gone Before) - not to mention all the other changes to the ship's design and layout. The uniforms are extremely different. They went from those weird blue jump suits to the JJ Abrams like uniforms without even trying to match those in the pilots (2254 & 2265 - You know between which "Discovery" and SNW is said to take place). Red uniforms didn't exist until after Kirk was in command for awhile (command was dirty gold, engineering/support was tan, and science/medical was dark blue - no black collars). In TNG Picard did what he could to prevent the Federation from making Data copies so the android's "offspring" (he argued a new species and race) wouldn't be used as slaves then somehow changed his mind to fight for Data-slaves. The Eugenics War moved from 1992 to 2024. The Federation uses criminals as slave labor. Starships, like in the JJ Abrams Universe, use windows instead of view screens on the bridge. Robert April is no longer of the same cultural and historic background (white English guy to African American). Phasers shoot bolts instead of beams just like in the Abrams Universe. Warp drive effects looks like "Star Wars" hyperspace (again like Abrams). Starfleet knew about Tribbles before the Prime Universe. Section 31 was anything but covert. While not exactly a universe change, the ship sizes seem to be designed for those with self esteem issues (again like the Abrams universe). What the hell did they do to the Klingons? The transporter effects are very different, etc, etc, etc.) The Discovery Universe better fits with the Abrams movies. I do feel that "Discovery" and it's spin offs are apart of "Star Trek", just like the Mirror Universe is, but they are separate and different from the Prime Universe.
Also the Kelpians were being culled by a vindictive species, but they were not slaves in this universe, only in the Mirror Universe. They literally confused the Mirror and Prime universe Kelpians up, it's such confused writing.
Enterprise had nitpicks, some worse than others, but it was overall still a good Trek show and it totally had its big moments, just nobody asked for a Prequel to TOS. Discovery can't even get its internal continuity right... and is again a tacked on prequel to TOS, just that they are not even trying anymore to make it fit... or even just "good entertainment".
"Star Trek: Discovery" introduces events that slightly diverge from the original "Star Trek" series. It's hinted that it may be set in an alternate future timeline. Moreover, when we encounter the Orions in "Discovery," it represents them thousands of years in the future, so naturally, things are different. This future includes inter-racial breeding and multiple cultural differences. "Picard" also incorporates time travel events, suggesting some events from the original timeline have been altered. Furthermore, at the end of "Star Trek: TNG," we encounter alternate versions of Picard, indicating that changes have occurred within the time continuum. While many major plots and events, such as those involving Pike, remain, there are notable alterations in the timeline. later its discussed from a character who's from another world and timeline who wants to go back to his home and in that episode, they mention timelines in the meeting they had. this means only the main events in enterprise are canon now and archer also is out there time traveling with the one race helping the temporal agents Aswell, archer didn't die remember that he altering time to repair things, problem with that is Danual and archer out there doing this changes events, and I know this is the directors idea but I wished they would admit yes timey whimsy stuff is happening it'd explain the inconsistency. though there are many Picard episodes and discovery episodes explaining that yes that is what is happening. and if you play star trek online it makes so much more sense.!
I didn't care for Enterprise take on Klingons much. In fact I'd go as far as to say they shouldn't have been in the show...at least not from day one. Still better than Klingorcs.
The Disco 3200 era Orion man was a by-product of breeding with humans....it made them weak....like what Quark said about the federation, it’s like ‘root beer’!
Just thought up a future DISCO storyline for season 4; Orion leader rises up to ‘Make Orions Strong Again’ by purging all human DNA through transporter technology which splits Orion’s into two individuals; 1 Orion and 1 Human, yet two different personalities and issues exist. Ethical DISCO Michael begs ands cries for justice to get them to transporter merge the two back into 1 Orion !! Can u Name the many recycled Trek episodes??
I mean... you saw what they did to klingons. Which doesn't even make sense given what we know about relationships between humans and klingons. They literally made them look like monsters.
As much as I am not a fan of the general Make-up and alien design/re-design department on STD. I will say that I am actually alright with the height and general build of the Orions shown in STD. Because the Orions seen in the enterprise were slavers, prison guards, and the like, and just as in real life, there are certain jobs and professions that bigger, beefier men and women are more suited for and tend to be hired because of their physique. So if I ran a slave market with multiple species, some having potentially mega-strength, I would want big beefy guards who can't get lice and not just rely on the slave implants.
A good writer is sympathetic and understanding of their audience - particularly their human intelligence - and respects, uses, or if cleverly done, can even toy with it for effect. So while Frai 2300 is willing to do the writer's job for them, a discerning audience doesn't. The writer respects the audience's intelligence and memory, and if the writer will showcase something contrary to what is established, it's done intentionally and thus a clear reason is expected, or at least hinted at if it's a fairly minor thing that isn't part of the plot. I can't speak about the Orions because I already gave up on DIS and PIC. If Orions were presented the same randomly sudden way as Klingons were, then it's the same mistake all over again. If the episode(s) revealed something about Orions shown, such as class, job, etc. - anything that clearly shows that they may not be the slavers we know, sure, I get you. BUT Again comes expectations. If we previously had no reason to believe the diversity existed, the writer's have to acknowledge breaking that expectation. Star Trek is a universe where there are even aliens whose members *all* look alike, and if you only ever show a species with a certain range of variances, we can't expect any more because that's human extrapolation on alien biology. Again, awareness of the audience must be shown. A recent - but super obvious - example is the Pakleds, where someone specifically said "aren't they supposed to be like a joke?" The audience surrogate is an important tool for these things. If something significant enough is portrayed differently, a good writer at least hints at acknowledging it and at most, explains it. It's not our job to compensate for lazy writing. So again, I'm not watching it, so hopefully you know better if enough context was provided to show respect to the audience.
I could accept that if it wasn't so clearly done because the Enterprise Orion makeup was clearly a 6-8 hour affair in a makeup chair and the Discovery orions makeup essentially a low effort grease paint job and almost certainly done because they don't have the budget. Knowing what I do about makeup I can't not see that. With the Enterprise orions I'm thinking "wow that's some nice makeup" and the Discovery Orions have me thinking "ugh low effort"
Try comparing Klingons from TOS, Next Gen and Discovery. If you look at them chronologically, they first looked like white vampires, then they looked like tanned humans, then they looked like long haired ridged forhead, fanged people.
Andre The Giant comes to mind every single time I've watched T'Pol get herself picked up by that giant lump of man meat.I feel like rewatching Enterprise since at least that show was much more entertaining,and made more sense than STD,Picard,and that god awful animated show Lower Decks.
There are specific ethnic groups in Orion Society. The most well known in Enterprise were the Pirates. In Star Trek Strange New Worlds, the Orions were the scientists. The Pirates and the Scientists were often mistaken to be of the same Ethnic group.
Well TNG made first officers have beards. I wonder what strange biological canon could explain that, when TOS first officers only had beards in the mirror universe.
Yeah, but we didn't have twitter and youtube to make a big deal out of minor aesthetic choices and/or budget cuts. I mean, STD has enough problems... even with the neo/retro/whatever Klingons a distant memory.
So many missed opportunities for Trek series, limited length or full: -TMP era Kirk 5 year Mission 2270-2275 or so -Kirk missions between St5 and 6, 2287-2293 -Development and launch of original 1701 with Capt April and his 5yr Mission 2245-2250 -Anthology series or mission ship based series set 2190-2230 or so. -Romulan War Archer era, animated with original actors, anime or Clone Wars style -Series set post Picard 2420-30 or so, any ship - Animated Picard prequel set on the Verity with Picard and Raffi, original voice actors -Animated Titan Riker series with Original tng actors -Sce series with Geordi But that's just me
Good Lord, did you see how our green boy's hands wrapped all the way around Tpaul's ribcage?
The Big Show is not a man to be trifled with.
Right beneath her mellons. A Lucky man, he was.
i noticed that aswell and had to go back and see if they used a model dummy to enphasise it...think its real O.O
T'Pol I believe.
And the whole time I watched Enterprise back in the day all I ever thought was "why would a Vulcan get a boob job and lip injections?" It's illogical!
@@joshuaewalker something something appeal to the emotional human males to get them to lower their emotional defenses
Is that the Big Show?
Yes it is. He was great in that episode
That was indeed the Big Show.
It's gonna the big man show tonight
Weeellllll....
Back when UPN was hosting Smackdown. Taking advantage of that network talent!!
Funny scene when the Orion is holding T'Pol like a doll 😂
We will learn to love Enterprise after all and Discovery’s one true achievement will be Enterprise’s redemption.
we always loved enterprise from the start
I'm one of those people.. I love TOS thru DS9, skipped Enterprise. I'm on season 4 now and it's becoming one of my favorites.
DS9 > Next Gen > TOS > ENT > VOY. Loved them all not a fan of nutrek, ST Picard had its moments but 1st season was disappointing.
Akin to what new star wars did for the prequels except enterprise was actually good lol
@@sixty9inchnails191 Nah. We didn’t.
It's weird. The Enterprise-era Orions are almost cartoonish in their visual appearance, and yet they seem more... I dunno, "appropriate," I suppose? The Discovery Orions just look like humans who happen to have green skin. Granted, Orion FEMALES have always looked like humans who just happen to be green, but the almost cartoonish look of the males in ENT seemed to suggest that the Orions had a very obvious sexual dimorphism.
Female orions might look human but they are still 90'th percentile in femininity /attractiveness and not like an average human female. Culturally it's clear that the writers were inspired by the Barbary corsairs with the Orion culture. I think they were way more interesting and Discovery's treatment seems pretty low effort by comparison.
Enterprise Orions look like they’re from an alien culture, Discovery Orion’s are just humans with green skin
This is a constant problem, not just in Trek. Even given technological & makeup limitations, aliens in earlier Trek at least felt alien *psychologically*. They may have been sympathetic, & people could identify them, but they were also clearly something beyond the human mindset.
It's an empathy problem, I think. For all folk talk about inclusion & understanding different perspectives, there's little actual evidence for even understanding the idea that - for example - the sexual dimorphism prevalent in one sapient species may be so extreme that we get civilisations like the Orion. Even the more fleshed-out species have facets that simply wouldn't make sense for humans: the ultra-logical Vulcans having a deeply ritualistic & spiritual culture, the Klingons being a galactic power despite an honour system that rewards promotion by death, Cardassians managing to survive despite provoking several of the galaxy's most belligerent empires from a resource-starve homeworld. Their minds are alien - it's humans who are missing something.
Aliens arent just quirky neurodivergent humans cosplaying, they're supposed to transcend immediate human understanding & prompt humanity to meet them halfway
(Regarding the Orion specifically, I think there's an argument to be made that they are a pastiche of Edgar Rice Burroughs' aliens, who were the original "hot alien woman with a different skin colour" & whose males were often huge & imposing. )
@@alharron2145 It's pretty obvious that the writers of Discovery are very anthrocentric, and in order to be civilized, an alien species has to be nearly indistinguishable from their human counterparts, different skin colors and facial prosthetics notwithstanding. It's really sad and conceited and honestly very lazy. These new writers are terrible stewards of the Star Trek property. They trample all over it as if to say, "I MADE THIS" instead of being respectful of what was already established and what was already working. Yes, sometimes change is good. But change for change's sake is worthless and pandering.
Discovery orions and andorians look like toys
they really do have this plastic look to them
Not to mention that christmassy sparkle in their skin that reminds me of a deck of snow and the way it sparkles in the sunlight..
Modern Trek is going to age very very badly. It's so "of its time".
That hasn't stopped people from fawning over TOS.
@@TheMegalusDoomslayer TOS was actually good
@@TheMegalusDoomslayer too be fare most people that hate it today hate it because they find shit to hate in everything else... Yes it was run by a bit of a misogynist but if you watch some if it and especially as the show continued it even made running jokes about how some of the more sexist stuff wasnt ok
@@mem1701movies Based on?
@@lonesurvivalist3147 or they've never watched it
God, how the hell does Discovery make plain green body paint look bad?
They made 23rd Century Klingons look like mutant Uru-kai, the Andorians have so much unnecessary face ridges, the Trill have unibrow spots.
Can they adapt one alien race right?
They are pioneers so no
The body paint is dark and glossy. It makes the Andorians and Orions look terrible. ENT did it right
@@elanderan1104 it has too much sparkle to it too.. disco andorians and orions look like they have that deck of snow sparkle to them..
Licensing disagreements...
No Literally, that's why the every race is different in some way...
@@enterprisethesylveon5787 I figured, the Kelvin movies did the same thing.
0:26 It's only one second. But it's all I needed to understand how Orion Females could easily dominate the Quadrant if they really wanted to.
I was debating who was hotter in these scene, the Orion or T'Pol
Too bad Discovery made Orions unattractive in their quest to be "woke".
I love how Enterprise who was previously shit on for disrespecting cannon, is now the beacon of "true Star Trek"
People were mostly upset that it didn't incorporate books/games and other non canon content. Mainly FASA from the 70's.
But in hindsight, it did a hell of a lot better respecting Alpha canon than the current live action series. And it gave us a good story on the origin of human looking Klingons.
It's like how everyone is saying the Star Wars prequels are not so bad anymore
Well, I didn't think it could get worse... then it got worse.
I still remember when Temple of Doom was the bad Indiana Jones movie. Then Kingdom of the Crystal Skull came out and Temple of Doom got _so much better._
Oh times, have they changed.
Got to love the Big Show.
Glad to see brainiac is getting work after losing to superman
I like the Enterprise vision of the Orions best. They nailed it!
Big Show in the Big Show
Oh man I love the enterprise Orion men.
I see the make up department is now one person doing everything!
Low budget probbaly.
Its a good thing Discovery is exclusive to CBS All Access. Makes it easier to ignore.
Here in the UK it's on Netflix, so very difficult to read star trek and not want to watch :(
@@Morgue12free it’s decent give it a watch. The overall story I find quite decent
It’s in the 32nd century, 1000 years later can change things.
Good gravy he looks more like a miniature hulk than an Orion (I think it the hair).
He looks like he belongs in he-man 😂😂
I wonder if the super mutants from fallout were inspired by these guys?
fallout came out in 1997 my guy but you said this 3 years ago so i probably shouldnt bother replying anyways. lmao screw it
@@r.graves5531 The originals yes, but the aesthetic bares a ton of resemblance to the Fo3 take on them.
I once had the privilege of high-fiving the Big Show. I'm 5"7', and my entire hand fit into his palm. Dude is legitimately freakishly huge.
The look on T'pal has he is holding her makes me laugh every time I see it.
I can imagine there were a couple silly takes when Wight picked up Blalock like a toy during rehearsal. And her stiff posture had me howling.
He's sampling Mount Tar'Hana and Mount Seleya.
Was it Blalock or a stand-in, though? It looks like her, but that's the whole point of editing, etc.
@@scockery It was her. The story goes that Big Show was encouraged to pick her up and shake her violently like a ragdoll, and he was hesitant because he thought he would seriously hurt her.
Well maybe being bald was just a fashion but going from big tall strong guys to painted humans is quite a big change for a 1000 years.
It's like seeing Big Hairy American Bikers and then seeing little Chinese men and saying that it's ridiculous that they are both human...
@@Velldog yeah, that would be stupid. And what does it have to do with Orion slave traders?
@@dominov Not all Orions have to be Big Tall Strong Guys who shave their head?
@@dominov Hey, someone with a similar opinion. Hello!
@@Velldog It's supposed to be Star Trek. When was the last time a species wasn't a single race with a singe culture (except for the plot)? Also I wrote that they might have shaved but I doubt it since they have some stuff on their hads.
Std is truely the most grotesque sci fi in all of tv history. How it continued to get funding despite abysmall ratings is something i just cant make sense of.
Because it almost doesn't require any marketing and everyone will watch it anyway. DISCO also introduced a lot of new folks to the franchise.
It introduced a handful of non-thinking people to plastic Trek. Not a good thing.
STD is an abomination
0:00 he looks like hes from warhammer 40k
I'm pretty sure there is some 40K AI art that look that. He also looks like Brainiac from Injustice 2.
That is Big Show from WWE.
Didn't Journey To Babel have a normal sized Orion male surgically altered to look like an Andorian? He was surgically altered, but I don't think they'd shave a foot or two off a guy's bones in the process. How did those Orions shrink so much between ENT and TOS? Did the Orions steal Kahn's DNA too?
Larger, more muscular Orions first appeared in The Animated Series. They weren't quite the enormous dudes of ENT, & they wore more clothing (even their heads were covered, so we can't directly know if they were bald), but there was still a fair through-line to Enterprise in a general "TOS era is always a bit different" way.
Still, it's easily conceivable that there were outliers like Thras (who was still 6' tall) who could be surgically altered to resemble other species, just as the comparatively short Arne Darvin was really a Klingon.
The problem with modern Trek is they've inverted it: now hair & human-average build is the norm, making them less distinctive & interesting as a result. Has there been a single big & bald Orion on Discovery, SNW, or even LD at all?
I'd be happy for intraspecific variation (weird that we haven't had a bald, muscular, female Orion yet) but modern Orion men being effectively just human men with green skin is enormously unimaginative & dull.
Is it just me or does futurorion look more rubber faced than all the forehead aliens from season 1 TNG in 1987?
Yes, yes they do.
In STD they wear a prosthetic mask that covers most of their face. It makes the actors look like they got an injection of botox. Once again it's another waste of money, when a simple green bodypaint (like on ENT and TOS) would do the job and cheaper.
Anyone here agree that Tendi from Lower Decks is fine?
Indeed,as we find out Orions might still be up to their usual tricks in later LD episodes
We will never see new Star Trek episodes with sexy Orion seductresses again. :(
You may on Lower Decks the they had an episode with an Orion pirate outpost and it was pretty much exactly like how the Orions were depicted on Enterprise.
Big Show lookin like Shrek from space
They tried so hard to be woke, but they discriminated against the Big and Tall community.
loool, nice
Lovin the Shrek vibe in Enterprise !!! THIS iS My SWAMP !!!
Big Show picking up T'pal and smiling has to be the funniest thing I've ever seen in Star Trek.
Almost as dumb as when they decided to make Romulans bald...
Bald romulans? Where was this?! The only bald romulan I remember was orum in VOY unity but that’s because he was a borg drone
@@njb1126 He means the Romulan with male pattern baldness in Star Trek Picard.
@@njb1126 Probably from Star Trek the Star Trek.
I liked the Abramsverse Romulans the best.
I like how they explained the ridges/no-ridges difference. And it didn’t require an entire story arc from a prequel. Simple: the ones with ridges are Northerners
Orion male/pirate in normal star trek
Big, strong looking, usallu bald, dangerous, can snap anyone in 2. One of the reason to be feared. Rough looking
Orian females: sexy, sending pheromones arround controlling men. Manipulation and subterfuge.. The real slave master.
Orion on STD
Male: has hair that is shaped to be male kpop idol dresses as a kpop male. Thin and small, doesn't show any physical treat to be feared. Small and submissive,
Female: even weirder, not sexy, not showing manipulation or subterfuge. Bigg green lips. And very very weird green color. Clothes like a biker, not showing that she uses her natural pheromones to controll people.
@Captain SeaSparrow 3d season is more like "look I can cry" and even I'm not n1 I still do all important things.
He hold her casually like his cat 😅.
The Orion men remind me of super mutants
0:15 Well it's the Big Show! (WWE theme song)
Orion men were big and bald. Discovery makes them skinny and have hair on their heads.
maybe a few centuries of evolution made em small and week minded
@@randomrazr Thats possible.
@@randomrazr Or maybe they just don't have the budget to do the makeup.
Or maybe they hire big guys to handle slaves, and Orions might have access to razor technology, which some choose to use and some don't.
1:16 She looks and acts like she would go to Starfleet HR and ask them to fire one of their officers for telling her to calm down.
Well, they kicked all the "toxic white males" out of the series, so of course their new villain has to be a Karen.
The Orionese, otherwise known as the “Karenoids”.
In complete fairness, it's possible that, in the natural diversity of an entire species, the ENT Orions we saw were just from a culture/region/profession/demographic/etc. that was more likely to have males who were roided out hunks of beef...
On the other hand, this would require Trek to feature an alien race with subtlety and internal variety, besides their "hat." Classic Trek was not great at this (The Klingons were probably the richest developed-mostly as in "they characters from multiple points on the 'honorable' gradient," "some of them were not warriors by profession-at least, not all the time" and "they sometimes produced works of fine art"), and NuTrek's only tool in this area is the Retcon Mallet of Good Fortune.
But they were trying to put forth that only a specific type can be like the Orion syndicate. Strong and powerful looking men and hot ass women who are also cunning and smart
I mean all we can really draw from this is the bouncers at the slave market are big and bald.
All the bouncers I know in really life are big bald men. But most humans and normal sized with hair too.
Is that The Big Show from WWF?! Lol
Yup.
They were small in TOS too. Remember Journey to Babel?
Yes, good call! There was an Orion male who masqueraded as an Andorian. He was around average height.
Sssshhh. We don't use logic here... Discovery, bad..
Perhaps they stole Kahn's DNA too. I mean if you look at 24th century Klingons and compare them to Arne Darvin there is a height difference there too.
There are always outliers in every society. Those who don't quite fit.
So.... you saw a small portion of their people and assume they are ALL like that. That's like going to kid rock concert and think the entire world looks like those people....
Big Show should be in more Sci Fi 🙂
Adding hair. So about 25% different.
It's like seeing Big Hairy American Bikers and then seeing little Chinese men and saying that it's ridiculous that they are both human...
So they can avoid the licensing issues.
And the female Orions were always depicted with hair. It's not a stretch to believe that male Orions are able to grow hair, too. But they could shave it or go bald, just like human men.
it's odd to see Brent Spinner again, but I guess it's a common thing for every star trek to show up some actors cameos from Previous Star Treks but with a different role and character.
On TOS, they said that Rigellians shared some anatomy with Vulcans. I thought that Orions were right next to Rigel colonies. It would make sense that (much like Nimoy’s makeup having a greenish hue) the Orions then would also have blood that is green. Thus, I am now totally confused as to why the Lower Decks Orion girl has red blood on her.
Quark: "You call that an auction?"
Orions are the Chads of Star Trek.
On Enterprise they were clearly based the barbary pirates.
Nothing saying male Orions can't have hair. It just looks weird. But then again the Discovery Orions look weird even without the hair. Something about the texture of the makeup I think.
Also isn't Discovery suppose to be a post-apocalyptic future? The fact that the Orions look more clean cut and formal after then apocalypses then they did before is just weird and off-putting.
Yeah! I greatly enjoyed that depiction in the show. Kinda like the Hirogen. Large and intimidating! Very predator-like in comparison to us puny humans. Forget STD. It's a farce. ☹
And a very bad farce indeed.
You're just silly. Chinese Farmers and NBA players aren't exactly copy and pastes of each other. Why would all Orions be?
I just figured out how Emperor Georgiou destroyed Qo'nos! She dropped a giant barrel on it.
Another piece of evidence that demonstrates that Discovery, Strange New Worlds, and Picard take place in a separate universe from the Prime Universe (Enterprise, TOS, Next Gen, DS9, Voy, LD, Progedy, and the first ten movies).
What about the Orion band playing instruments whilst Vina danced in The Cage? None of them looked like the ones in Enterprise-just guys painted green in dark wigs.
@@nathancrawford6029 What about them? I guess like humans, Klingons, etc. they have individuals of different sizes and shapes - besides, makeup and budgets improve. But nothing about the Orions in "Enterprise" counters TOS (beyond the blue Oree-Ons of the animated series - a different species or race? The colorist was color blind? Mistakes slip through the cracks?).
The shows in the Discovery Universe change almost everything on purpose, seemingly just because. To be fair the creaters of "Discovery" may never have seen "Star Trek" and may have only heard about it from friends.
The Enterprise grows from 289m (2254 "The Cage") to about 450m ("Discovery") and then back to 289m (2265 "Where No Man has Gone Before) - not to mention all the other changes to the ship's design and layout. The uniforms are extremely different. They went from those weird blue jump suits to the JJ Abrams like uniforms without even trying to match those in the pilots (2254 & 2265 - You know between which "Discovery" and SNW is said to take place). Red uniforms didn't exist until after Kirk was in command for awhile (command was dirty gold, engineering/support was tan, and science/medical was dark blue - no black collars).
In TNG Picard did what he could to prevent the Federation from making Data copies so the android's "offspring" (he argued a new species and race) wouldn't be used as slaves then somehow changed his mind to fight for Data-slaves. The Eugenics War moved from 1992 to 2024. The Federation uses criminals as slave labor. Starships, like in the JJ Abrams Universe, use windows instead of view screens on the bridge. Robert April is no longer of the same cultural and historic background (white English guy to African American).
Phasers shoot bolts instead of beams just like in the Abrams Universe. Warp drive effects looks like "Star Wars" hyperspace (again like Abrams). Starfleet knew about Tribbles before the Prime Universe. Section 31 was anything but covert. While not exactly a universe change, the ship sizes seem to be designed for those with self esteem issues (again like the Abrams universe). What the hell did they do to the Klingons? The transporter effects are very different, etc, etc, etc.)
The Discovery Universe better fits with the Abrams movies. I do feel that "Discovery" and it's spin offs are apart of "Star Trek", just like the Mirror Universe is, but they are separate and different from the Prime Universe.
I know a Super Mutant when I see one ☢️
Also the Kelpians were being culled by a vindictive species, but they were not slaves in this universe, only in the Mirror Universe. They literally confused the Mirror and Prime universe Kelpians up, it's such confused writing.
Well, they must be at least 25% different :/
For a moment there I thought those were the super mutants from Fallout.
Take any random small group of humans. Expect any of them to "represent" all humans?
There's an episode of Star Trek Continues called Lolani where Lou Ferrigno plays an Orion. He was excellent.
the only thing less canon than enterprise is discovery.
Enterprise did have some canon issues, but nothing in the field of Discovery's. Show writers just don't know the lore, simple as.
Enterprise had nitpicks, some worse than others, but it was overall still a good Trek show and it totally had its big moments, just nobody asked for a Prequel to TOS.
Discovery can't even get its internal continuity right... and is again a tacked on prequel to TOS, just that they are not even trying anymore to make it fit... or even just "good entertainment".
Now the Klingons are bald
*Cool comparison clips!* ⭐😃👍
"Star Trek: Discovery" introduces events that slightly diverge from the original "Star Trek" series. It's hinted that it may be set in an alternate future timeline. Moreover, when we encounter the Orions in "Discovery," it represents them thousands of years in the future, so naturally, things are different. This future includes inter-racial breeding and multiple cultural differences. "Picard" also incorporates time travel events, suggesting some events from the original timeline have been altered. Furthermore, at the end of "Star Trek: TNG," we encounter alternate versions of Picard, indicating that changes have occurred within the time continuum. While many major plots and events, such as those involving Pike, remain, there are notable alterations in the timeline. later its discussed from a character who's from another world and timeline who wants to go back to his home and in that episode, they mention timelines in the meeting they had. this means only the main events in enterprise are canon now and archer also is out there time traveling with the one race helping the temporal agents Aswell, archer didn't die remember that he altering time to repair things, problem with that is Danual and archer out there doing this changes events, and I know this is the directors idea but I wished they would admit yes timey whimsy stuff is happening it'd explain the inconsistency. though there are many Picard episodes and discovery episodes explaining that yes that is what is happening. and if you play star trek online it makes so much more sense.!
it took a 1000 years to cure baldness
Big show can totally play Heavy weaponsguy from TF2!
Star Trek was made for men and for boys to show how to grow up and to accept everyone pure air quality
Orion girl: For your information many orions have only been pirates for five years.
Orion pirate queen from TOS: BULLSHIT!!! cough cough.
Then again, Discovery completely ignored canon established in Enterprise about the way Klingons are supposed to look like in the 2250s.
So really, what were we expecting? If we can't expect the Klingons to actually be Klingons then what hope do we have for the Orions or the Andorians?
@@pittland44 No ridges due to the augment virus, and a fact that was referenced in DS9. It would be a few decades later when they would re-appear.
@@gedias1 And that was a great episode when they explained why the Klingons lost their ridges. The writing team for STD are all gutter trash.
@@pittland44 It would have been awesome if the Klingons looked human in the first two seasons of Discovery, then having the new look 900 years later.
I didn't care for Enterprise take on Klingons much. In fact I'd go as far as to say they shouldn't have been in the show...at least not from day one.
Still better than Klingorcs.
The body paint in Discovery is bad. It's so glossy and dark on the Orions and Andorians.
That's the big show
Where were they in the later Star Trek?
Me when I get a teddy bear for Christmas 0:16
What was DATA doing on this show?
The Disco 3200 era Orion man was a by-product of breeding with humans....it made them weak....like what Quark said about the federation, it’s like ‘root beer’!
Just thought up a future DISCO storyline for season 4; Orion leader rises up to ‘Make Orions Strong Again’ by purging all human DNA through transporter technology which splits Orion’s into two individuals; 1 Orion and 1 Human, yet two different personalities and issues exist. Ethical DISCO Michael begs ands cries for justice to get them to transporter merge the two back into 1 Orion !! Can u Name the many recycled Trek episodes??
I mean... you saw what they did to klingons. Which doesn't even make sense given what we know about relationships between humans and klingons. They literally made them look like monsters.
Nobody ever realized that Star Trek was actually Fallouts future and that the supermutants survive long enough to leave Earth
The buff ones are hotter too.
As much as I am not a fan of the general Make-up and alien design/re-design department on STD. I will say that I am actually alright with the height and general build of the Orions shown in STD.
Because the Orions seen in the enterprise were slavers, prison guards, and the like, and just as in real life, there are certain jobs and professions that bigger, beefier men and women are more suited for and tend to be hired because of their physique.
So if I ran a slave market with multiple species, some having potentially mega-strength, I would want big beefy guards who can't get lice and not just rely on the slave implants.
Careful or you might be thrown off the "shit-on-everything-new" bandwagon. How dare you make an argument for diversity in Star Trek racial features?
A good writer is sympathetic and understanding of their audience - particularly their human intelligence - and respects, uses, or if cleverly done, can even toy with it for effect. So while Frai 2300 is willing to do the writer's job for them, a discerning audience doesn't. The writer respects the audience's intelligence and memory, and if the writer will showcase something contrary to what is established, it's done intentionally and thus a clear reason is expected, or at least hinted at if it's a fairly minor thing that isn't part of the plot.
I can't speak about the Orions because I already gave up on DIS and PIC. If Orions were presented the same randomly sudden way as Klingons were, then it's the same mistake all over again. If the episode(s) revealed something about Orions shown, such as class, job, etc. - anything that clearly shows that they may not be the slavers we know, sure, I get you.
BUT
Again comes expectations. If we previously had no reason to believe the diversity existed, the writer's have to acknowledge breaking that expectation. Star Trek is a universe where there are even aliens whose members *all* look alike, and if you only ever show a species with a certain range of variances, we can't expect any more because that's human extrapolation on alien biology. Again, awareness of the audience must be shown. A recent - but super obvious - example is the Pakleds, where someone specifically said "aren't they supposed to be like a joke?" The audience surrogate is an important tool for these things.
If something significant enough is portrayed differently, a good writer at least hints at acknowledging it and at most, explains it. It's not our job to compensate for lazy writing.
So again, I'm not watching it, so hopefully you know better if enough context was provided to show respect to the audience.
I could accept that if it wasn't so clearly done because the Enterprise Orion makeup was clearly a 6-8 hour affair in a makeup chair and the Discovery orions makeup essentially a low effort grease paint job and almost certainly done because they don't have the budget. Knowing what I do about makeup I can't not see that. With the Enterprise orions I'm thinking "wow that's some nice makeup" and the Discovery Orions have me thinking "ugh low effort"
It is almost like, almost, mind you, a people's preferences might change over nearly 100 years... So maybe the Orions had a Manbun phase.
Big show hand framing some prime chesticles
Try comparing Klingons from TOS, Next Gen and Discovery. If you look at them chronologically, they first looked like white vampires, then they looked like tanned humans, then they looked like long haired ridged forhead, fanged people.
wow I never knew BigShow got to feel-up Jolene Blalock?! lucky....
Human time is done! This is the age of the Super Mutant!
Good gravy, I don't watch Discovery so I thought I was watching some CG cutscene from a Star Trek game. I didn't realize that was a live-action Orion.
Guess they evolved or used to shave their heads. Whatever.
Logical.
Andre The Giant comes to mind every single time I've watched T'Pol get herself picked up by that giant lump of man meat.I feel like rewatching Enterprise since at least that show was much more entertaining,and made more sense than STD,Picard,and that god awful animated show Lower Decks.
Weeeeeelllllll it’s the big greeen!!!!
There are specific ethnic groups in Orion Society. The most well known in Enterprise were the Pirates. In Star Trek Strange New Worlds, the Orions were the scientists. The Pirates and the Scientists were often mistaken to be of the same Ethnic group.
Well TNG made first officers have beards. I wonder what strange biological canon could explain that, when TOS first officers only had beards in the mirror universe.
I can’t believe Big Show picked up T’Pol like a rag doll.
I do he lifts people bigger than her for a living. She was definitely a pillow compared to them 😂
@@TheDarkarrow7 her boobs look like a pillow to me.
In all honesty I stopped watching when Enterprise started, but I never knew Big Show had a bit part in it. I wonder who else showed up for a moment...
Was that the Big Show?
haha nice
I mean the difference in time is like 1000 years. It's not too much to assume they evolved passed the "all brawn and no brains" part of their biology.
Wellllll, well it's the Big Show!
I thought of the incredible hulk, really did.
poor lil ole t'pol being held up like a piece of meat
Thanos of Orion.
The original Trill have forehead ridges in TNG. Starting in DS9 they just all have a double heat rash.
Yeah, but we didn't have twitter and youtube to make a big deal out of minor aesthetic choices and/or budget cuts.
I mean, STD has enough problems... even with the neo/retro/whatever Klingons a distant memory.
Terry Farrell made that "heat rash" look gooood!
So many missed opportunities for Trek series, limited length or full:
-TMP era Kirk 5 year Mission 2270-2275 or so
-Kirk missions between St5 and 6, 2287-2293
-Development and launch of original 1701 with Capt April and his 5yr Mission 2245-2250
-Anthology series or mission ship based series set 2190-2230 or so.
-Romulan War Archer era, animated with original actors, anime or Clone Wars style
-Series set post Picard 2420-30 or so, any ship
- Animated Picard prequel set on the Verity with Picard and Raffi, original voice actors
-Animated Titan Riker series with Original tng actors
-Sce series with Geordi
But that's just me