So basically the K-system creates a VU-like environment by re-establishing "zero" at a choice of locations from 12-20dB below full scale(0dBfs). Monitors can then be calibrated to 83dB SPL at one of those points. Who here thinks that peak-based digital meters(with zero at the top of the scale) helped egg on the loudness war as well as the wishes of musicians to make their music louder?
this is great i have been leaning this way for a while now just got out new mixed back from nashville and they are just cooking the meters right out the gate much thanks randee
Thanks a lot man, i use to work with nuendo before and my mixes where sounding really clean at the time, now with logic it was getting really dirty and finally here is the reason why. Thanks a lot!!!!!!
Question: Why do you use the meter before your Mastering plug ins? Wouldn't be better to use it afterwords to check if you are not squashing the dynamic range?
I understood that the idea would be to send a -18db into the mastering plugins to avoid distortion....but you could still squash the dynamic range in the Mastering...what then? tnx
The music in the background is too loud, we cant focus on the topic and the conversation...Should be better mixed, specially if your talking about levels...! The info seems really great...!
To get the best from the K-Metering system , proper monitor calibration is necessary . Not the best explanation but there were some nice points in between . Thanks for the Vid.
Public service note: Bitwig Studio has K-20 metering built-in. It's a super-interesting, innovative DAW worth a look. I bought it the other day:) Thanks for the video James - from now on I'll use K-20 (can't use K-14, but K-20 is better than the regular meters).
Damn I always wondered why my waves plugs used to clip even though my channel was well below 0dBFS. It's all so much more clear now. Setting up the K-system from now on.
OMG, I've been doing this wrong and the penny has just dropped. Just experimented on a mix and its sounds as good as your sort of mix now. I've spent years getting this wrong! Thanks so much! ! ! ! I've been getting evrything v slightly mushed and distorted running all my lovely emulations too hot.
Tip for coping with the background music: I found that turning on closed captioning - although not a perfect transcription - helped me focus on what he's saying and tune out the music pretty successfully.
Dubspot you ar renowned for your quality and the content of the video is top notch. What is a let down is the music over such an important topic. You didn't even cut it when James plays his example (2:14) and the old age dj term 'clanging' came to mind. come on Dubspot you're better than that :)
All love all kinds of music, im a musician and i never put down anyones music for any reason. Music is music, a talent that comes from us humans, and I enjoy it as much as I can while I am living on this planet and grateful for the people including myself that makes music.
I was really enjoying the foreground music but I found the excellent information on metering and gain staging to be a real distraction. I’m a big sook so I can’t focus my listening wholly on the inane dance track, instead all I can hear is this constant information you’ve so clearly laid out in the background.
Wrong it's RMS at Zero so average. " Rock and electric pop music take advantage of this "loud zone", since climaxes, loud choruses and occasional peak moments sound incorrect if they only reach 0dB (forte) on any K-system meter." this is taken from Bob Katz article about his K-system. I find it quite puzzling that you would not fully understand the concept behind a plugin that you are promoting.
I sum out to analogue and noticed that I signal not peaking in logic can cook the channels on the desk... perhaps I should allow it to meter high in logic, and use a pad on the desk's channels. I guess that would have the same affect?
thats gonna depend on your interface or other hardware you are running boss. check out some of the external hardware they make, i personally like the presonus monitor station. but there are other options as well.
Basically, analogue gear works with voltages and uses VU metering. 0VU equates to +4dBu which is professional line level. The point is, when we send our analogue signal to our DAW and is converted +4dBu becomes -18dBFS on our digital meter. Psychologically we want to then push our levels up because we see all that lovely headroom being 'wasted'. The problem is when we want to send our signal back out for possessing it's now too hot. Our processors/plugs are still expecting +4dBu/-18dBFS
James, if you put a modelled plugin on a channel, just pulling fader down, i.e. using K Metering, has no affect as the plugin is PRE fader so the "voltage" will still be cooking the plugin???! Maybe a simple work around would to put a "Trim" plugin at the top of the channels, and set that to -14db or -20db. Then the signal will be attenuated BEFORE it goes into the modelled plugins on the strip, and therefore not cooking it?? Maybe the likes of Waves have taken into account digital "voltage" and adapted the plugins accordingly??? I don't know! Just a thought! Thanks for the vids
Great point. In the video he mentions that the waves plugins were working best around -20dB but how do we know waves didn't compensate or take into account this digital voltage and adapt like you say??
What about new plugins that weren't modeled after hardware ? There are a few compressor plugins i'm using that you have to turn the gain up all the way to get 3 db of compression. It's annoying. The waves don't seem to do this, but it's not even across the board. It forces you to have to turn up from -18 to compensate.
If I'm mixing and mastering my own music using only digital plugins (I know this is far from ideal but I still want to get my music to a level where it can be played out and do not have hardware or a mastering engineer) should I still be mixing with levels this low? I always thought if you mixed super low levels and then let the limiter and master compression do all the work that you lost all your dynamics and punch and end up with a loud but lifeless and squashed track?
How annoying is that music in the background! Why get the very talented Wiltshire in to share his knowledge then destroy the video with over bearing music??
Really hard to concentrate on what your saying with the music in the background
James Billinger yea. which especially hilarious in a video regarding misconceptions about loudness :P
Please lose the background music! Playing a music bed under demo music is bad form and makes the demonstration ineffective.
+MixmanD28 For the love of God. Please!
It is awesome when people who know their shit talk shop.
Much respect to the Freemasons!
Thanks you for taking the time to share.
I was about to mention the background music... but it looks like I don't have to:)
very good explanation.. insightful
Excellent- the K-metering tips make perfect sense. the message then is 'Stay cool and don't get too hot!' many thanks.
So basically the K-system creates a VU-like environment by re-establishing "zero" at a choice of locations from 12-20dB below full scale(0dBfs). Monitors can then be calibrated to 83dB SPL at one of those points.
Who here thinks that peak-based digital meters(with zero at the top of the scale) helped egg on the loudness war as well as the wishes of musicians to make their music louder?
THANKS FOR THE INFO!!!!
Nice video, but the music is too loud in the background.
Great advise! I strongly recommend everyone to change that setting in Logic. I changed it recently and found it extremely helpful!
This is poetry to my ears. Thank you! I did this on my Logic session and it IMMEDIATELY made a HUGE difference! Haha, who knew. He does.
I have always wondered why I ended up with crappy mixes in logic. Invaluable . Thanks.
this is great
i have been leaning this way for a while now
just got out new mixed back from nashville and they are just cooking the meters right out the gate
much thanks
randee
Thanks a lot man, i use to work with nuendo before and my mixes where sounding really clean at the time, now with logic it was getting really dirty and finally here is the reason why. Thanks a lot!!!!!!
Question: Why do you use the meter before your Mastering plug ins? Wouldn't be better to use it afterwords to check if you are not squashing the dynamic range?
Wow!!! That preference (db-meter) is one helpful tip!! Thanks!
Huge difference by changing the settings in level meter in Logic! Good advice!
Good video. He just explained the basics of gain staging in Logic which is the difference between an amateur mix and a pro one.
I understood that the idea would be to send a -18db into the mastering plugins to avoid distortion....but you could still squash the dynamic range in the Mastering...what then? tnx
Great info... Just tried it and mix does have more clarity.
Your tutorials are great, but please don´t use background music when you talk, and never when you try to explain a sound example. Thanks
Amen. It's absolutely horrible. I couldn't sit through it.
The music in the background is too loud, we cant focus on the topic and the conversation...Should be better mixed, specially if your talking about levels...! The info seems really great...!
I will pay a monthly fee for James tutorials. Love this guy.
Thanks for explaining this - very helpful.
THANKYOU James x
brilliant, love your sample pack also. the best snares ive ever heard. best money ive spent in a while.
that background. love it.! used in wynter gordon's "believer".
Yeah, Sectional db Linear. I remember finally having that implemented. My first production in Logic drove me crazy because of Exponential metering
Such a great video!
Thank you.
Awesome! Thank you for this!!
There's that guy Raz Klinghoffer , that has some really cool technics, he mixed on of my songs, so if you're looking for an engineer this is your guy
make a video on how to setup multiple studio monitors in logic
EXCELLENT INFORMATION..
awesome video! thank you for posting this
all that aside what he said about changing the mixer setting to linear db instead of exponential ive found to be a great idea. cheers
I wish I could watch this video. But the music that should probably be IN THE BACKGROUND is so annoying it makes it impossible to watch...
To get the best from the K-Metering system , proper monitor calibration is necessary . Not the best explanation but there were some nice points in between . Thanks for the Vid.
Awesome, thanks for sharing your insight. Love your work.
Great advice, thank you.
Public service note: Bitwig Studio has K-20 metering built-in. It's a super-interesting, innovative DAW worth a look. I bought it the other day:)
Thanks for the video James - from now on I'll use K-20 (can't use K-14, but K-20 is better than the regular meters).
Everyone should know this.... Thanks!!!
i had to replay it to notice the background music after reading comments >.
informative video, but the music was too loud and unnecessary, very distracting.
Thank you so much, this is going to make mixing a lot easier now!
Thanks , makes good sense .
Damn I always wondered why my waves plugs used to clip even though my channel was well below 0dBFS. It's all so much more clear now. Setting up the K-system from now on.
Fantastic work on this channel. You got skills. Let me know when you upload new clips, maybe we can help somehow.
OMG, I've been doing this wrong and the penny has just dropped. Just experimented on a mix and its sounds as good as your sort of mix now. I've spent years getting this wrong! Thanks so much! ! ! ! I've been getting evrything v slightly mushed and distorted running all my lovely emulations too hot.
thank you very much for the upload! the background music is a bit distracting
As soon as he starts talking the background music should stop or go down to a barely audible level.
The free Voxengo SPAN does have K-Metering (and correlation) as do
Studio One's loudness meter :D
Tip for coping with the background music: I found that turning on closed captioning - although not a perfect transcription - helped me focus on what he's saying and tune out the music pretty successfully.
Dubspot you ar renowned for your quality and the content of the video is top notch. What is a let down is the music over such an important topic. You didn't even cut it when James plays his example (2:14) and the old age dj term 'clanging' came to mind. come on Dubspot you're better than that :)
thanks man :) its littlebit clearer right now for me :) big up!
Background music bed is distracting. This shouldn't have been added imo.
Great tips
When i record my vocals "singing" it sounds so unprofessional help!!
Great video and info, but lose the music over him talking. Very, VERY distracting!
He's using the K system for balancing voice and music.
same for me - the music in the backround is very anoying and it even stays if he gives an soundexample...but thanks for the video anyway...
Awesome.
DAMN MUSIC LOUD MAYB U SHOULD HAVE SUNG THE INFO!
its really hard to concentrate on what he is saying because of the great music in the background.
I do not know if you like the music or u are sarcastic......but sure is hard to concentrate with that loud music
All love all kinds of music, im a musician and i never put down anyones music for any reason. Music is music, a talent that comes from us humans, and I enjoy it as much as I can while I am living on this planet and grateful for the people including myself that makes music.
I was really enjoying the foreground music but I found the excellent information on metering and gain staging to be a real distraction. I’m a big sook so I can’t focus my listening wholly on the inane dance track, instead all I can hear is this constant information you’ve so clearly laid out in the background.
2:35.. which is it? Aim for zero average or peak?
I believe it's aiming for peaking at zero
Wrong it's RMS at Zero so average. " Rock and electric pop music take advantage of this "loud zone", since climaxes, loud choruses and occasional peak moments sound incorrect if they only reach 0dB (forte) on any K-system meter." this is taken from Bob Katz article about his K-system. I find it quite puzzling that you would not fully understand the concept behind a plugin that you are promoting.
Gold! this tutorial.
K stands for Bob Katz.
Yes, it's the same for Logic X so ensure your metering options are set properly (Sectional).
great advice!
thanks :) the best thing was the logic linear mixer setting..top advice
Is there a way to do linear metering on ableton?
omg Roland MKS-80 in the rack behind him.. this man is insane!
BRAVO!!!!
you could also use FabFilter Pro L which has k metering on it
Logic Pro X defaults to sectional db linear, guess they corrected it. Great video, thanks.
So, before sending it to a mastering engineer. Have you level set at -6.0dB or -14dB?
I sum out to analogue and noticed that I signal not peaking in logic can cook the channels on the desk... perhaps I should allow it to meter high in logic, and use a pad on the desk's channels. I guess that would have the same affect?
Great Video James! Question... How does Reason's mixer level compare to this type of situation? anything worth noting there? TY for the great vids
Niceeeeeee
Why do every fucking interesting video on youtube have shitty music in the background, that makes u go crazy?!?!
damn thanks for really good answer, its littlebit clearer for me right now ;) thanks man!
Great info although I don't rub Logic, I have Cubase 7. New metering is pretty useful
Mr James thank u bra u really help me.
awesome
thats gonna depend on your interface or other hardware you are running boss. check out some of the external hardware they make, i personally like the presonus monitor station. but there are other options as well.
Good info, the irony of the backing track was deafening though!
Basically, analogue gear works with voltages and uses VU metering. 0VU equates to +4dBu which is professional line level. The point is, when we send our analogue signal to our DAW and is converted +4dBu becomes -18dBFS on our digital meter. Psychologically we want to then push our levels up because we see all that lovely headroom being 'wasted'. The problem is when we want to send our signal back out for possessing it's now too hot. Our processors/plugs are still expecting +4dBu/-18dBFS
thank you
Would you please do a review of Logic Pro X?
James, if you put a modelled plugin on a channel, just pulling fader down, i.e. using K Metering, has no affect as the plugin is PRE fader so the "voltage" will still be cooking the plugin???!
Maybe a simple work around would to put a "Trim" plugin at the top of the channels, and set that to -14db or -20db. Then the signal will be attenuated BEFORE it goes into the modelled plugins on the strip, and therefore not cooking it??
Maybe the likes of Waves have taken into account digital "voltage" and adapted the plugins accordingly??? I don't know!
Just a thought!
Thanks for the vids
Great point. In the video he mentions that the waves plugins were working best around -20dB but how do we know waves didn't compensate or take into account this digital voltage and adapt like you say??
What about new plugins that weren't modeled after hardware ? There are a few compressor plugins i'm using that you have to turn the gain up all the way to get 3 db of compression. It's annoying. The waves don't seem to do this, but it's not even across the board. It forces you to have to turn up from -18 to compensate.
good tips
From Fl studio to logic - this is going to be hell for me.
If I'm mixing and mastering my own music using only digital plugins (I know this is far from ideal but I still want to get my music to a level where it can be played out and do not have hardware or a mastering engineer) should I still be mixing with levels this low? I always thought if you mixed super low levels and then let the limiter and master compression do all the work that you lost all your dynamics and punch and end up with a loud but lifeless and squashed track?
Great.
Muito Amigo!! Parabéns!
very nice tips
How come you are using Logic James Wiltshire?
but if we use the gain plug in and lower the gain by 14 dB, its the same thing as K-meter right?
Whats the second camera angle for? Thx.
Would you only worry about the master channel peaking at -4dB ?
Dude... I cannot hear what you are saying!! Maybe you should mix this clip?
How annoying is that music in the background! Why get the very talented Wiltshire in to share his knowledge then destroy the video with over bearing music??