Control Testing Ignition Coils (Part 3 Of An 8 Part SD Premium Series)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2024
- To join my on-line technician training classes (ScannerDanner Premium) visit www.scannerdanner.com/join-sc...
In this part 3 video we will be reinforcing what we've learned so far on a live car. As well as determining if we can view coil trigger signals with a test light. Then finally we switch to a 2016 GMC with a misfire that just had a new coil installed, without a fix. #picoscope #rosedaletech #scannerdannerpremium
operation and wiring of a 3 or 4 wire C.O.P. ignition coil [1:00]
"control testing" ignition coils, 2, 3 and 4 wire designs [6:00]
live demo, using a lab scope (Picoscope) on a C.O.P. system [11:00]
warning on using a filter and a trigger at the same time [16:00]
can we use a test light to check a coil trigger signal (base circuit control) [21:35]
connecting an LED & incandescent test light to transistor base circuit [23:30]
a request to check a 2016 6.0L GM with a misfire [28:40]
importance of checking the amplitude of a trigger signal, power and ground testing [32:50]
live misfire study begins 2016 GMC Sierra 3500 6.0L VIN G engine [35:10]
measuring ignition coil current ramps at the fuse box [37:35]
syncing the current ramps with the #1 coil trigger signal [39:50]
warning on setting a trigger [43:50]
spark test on the new coil with my test light [47:05]
cranking compression sound test [49:50]
relative compression test with a lab scope [50:35]
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For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdanner.com/join-sc... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![Ignition System Testing - Primary Current [Audi A6 part 1 of 2]](/img/n.gif)
To join my on-line technician training classes (ScannerDanner Premium) visit www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html
In this part 3 video we will be reinforcing what we've learned so far on a live car. As well as determining if we can view coil trigger signals with a test light. Then finally we switch to a 2016 GMC with a misfire that just had a new coil installed, without a fix.
Im watching from Philippines,
Tanks for your sharing like this vid.
I learn to much to your a lot video
And i subscribe to you maybe. 5 to 6 years now❤️
Thank you for this video.
@@humbletech3167 thank you so much! You've been with me for a long time! What is your user name on premium so I can thank you there too?
Sorry im not included to your premium
I dont have money inought to buy or log in to your primium.
I wish someday you have reffle or free give away scantool. Yess i want scantool like your snapon or autel but i dont have money to by.
Tanks.. Im glad For replying me i wish to many subscribers coming to you and more life to you
Tanks God bless you Always and your FAMILY❤️
Sorry for my english😊
@@humbletech3167 you're English is fine my friend. Thanks so much, sorry I misunderstood
There should not be one person that watches this video that walks away with any doubt on their testing procedures . Very well done Paul 👏
thanks so much Keith!
Not to take away from ScannerDanner's videos, but Keith we miss yours! Hope you're doing well in your life's new chapter!
@@ablackformula doing very well thanks . Taken a few new turns in this career move that I wasn't quite expecting , but still affecting what is provided to the industry as a whole . Hopefully able to make some videos again soon 🙏
But we need some 5 minute straight from the cell phone filmed 1 handed videos
@@kdautomotive1165 😂, I wouldn't know how to do it any other way
SD, man I can tell The Good Lord has given you a gift to teach and help others understand . What a fantastic intro course to PICO/Scoping a coil and scoping principles in general. I’m a fan of watching world class experts do what they do because it’s impressive when you see true talent in action. Keep being a blessing to those you teach friend. Love learning from you. I’m thinking read the plug, check compression and valves too.
Thank you brother
Thank you Paul for this great teaching lesson , not every 3 wires coil work that way , example Mercedes Benz and BMW the 3 wire coil pack the transistor is not in the coil is in the ECM . Thak you I have learn a lot from you as just wanted to say thanks . 😊
If it is a European car, I can see them doing that lol
So I'd be like I described in this video for the secondary, where it has a separate ground.
Mecedes M271 EVO engine ( W204 C200/C250 or W212 E200/E250 ) ), 3 wire COP is basically a 2 wire COP with extra ground for noise reduction. One pin for +12v power from the fuse box Front SAM, one pin for the -12V tigger from ECM and one pin is to cylinder head ground, this is the noise reduction one.
I LOVE SCANNER DANNER FOR ITS GOOD TEACHINGS, IS ALWAYS A GAIN FOR!!💞💞👊👊
I LOVE SCANNER DANNER FOR ITS GOOD TEACHINGS, IS ALWAYS A GAIN FOR ME!! 💞💞👊👊
Great lesson really liked the way you explain things.
In the past I had experiences of compression problems that ended up being a slightly lose spark plug
Beautiful, Love it what an awesome diag you nailed it in the end👍
Thanks for educating us SD👍
Thanks Caleb & Stay Safe Guy's❤
OMG Paul, what a great video. Very educational. Can't wait for #2 vid.
Great job 👍
Earl, this is part of an 8 part series on my premium channel. You will need to subscribe to watch them, I won't be uploading this whole series here. Thank you! Sorry to disappoint
Thanks for that Paul, the ignition system are always fun
cool are we picking back up the coil control diagnostics series awesome!!
That's job security when you outshine your fellow instructors and when they bring the problem cars to you. That's awesome!
Thats why he did not want to be filmed
My first language is spanish but i love your videos... I`ve learned a lot and also English. XD
Thank you for another perfect video!!!
Thanks for sharing Paul... Cheers.
Love it keep up the good work
Thank you Mr Danner
Good information Danner. Thanks
AWESOME!👍👍👍
Very, very interessting Video Paul. I can you unterstand good, i have not good english. Thanks for your Videos. All good for you and your Family. Thanks.
So great info thanks man
Good information. than you for your time.
do you use an artinari on the scope leads when checking the square wave form on control wire on 3 wire coil or is it just the one built into amp clamp when checking amperage?
I tried the timing light test a couple of times ~30 years ago but it can be misleading. Even if the coil is defective, it can still spark on exhaust stroke on waist spark systems. It'll fire at half the frequency but that can pass unnoticed.
Great 👍
Around. 14.30 to 15.30 you can see the difference in voltage changes between the feed side and the ground side.:. when current starts to flow through the coil the voltage on the coil's feed side slightly drops, whereas on the ground side voltage slightly rises. Nice!
Early VW and Audi 1.8T 20V (1995-~1998) used 3 pin passive COP (with separate igniter on airbox). 3rd pin is for secondary winding ground connection.
Hi there my bolt has snapped inside on alternator with red wire on it can I still start van without it vauxhall vivaro!!!
dood watching this a second time too bad you didn't find that sticking valve compression problem and yes let's do a sync with a specific cylinder event to find affected cylinders with compression problem when the class gets back maybe; your like the mad scientist who just doest quit till he finds the glitch lol!!
Would there be a concern of creating another problem as far as trying to do the swap coil procedure what if it is shorted and has burned out the driver in the computer then you swap it and burn out another driver?
Hello how are youll today hope all goes well tan you for the video I have got to now a lot keep up the good work bless I would have loved to be there thanks for all
I was looking for just this test the GM coil near plug I did this same test yesterday and had questions about my scope pattern not lining up correctly I also seem to have no spark (spark tester confirmed)but how can I have current ramp and no spark continued learning in 5,4,3,2,
Hello how are youll today hope all goes well bless tank you'll for the video.i have got to now a lot keep up the good great work tanks for all.i woold loved to be there tanks a lot . from Austin soleyn of stvincen WID bless
Thanks for teaching Scanner Danner and happy Sunday🙏👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
You said that picoscope bnc terminal have power in the outside and ground at the center ( in about 11min.), I always thinking that is opposite, don’t you think?
Hey Paul I'm thanking you again thanks to you teachings I now work a job im making $28 an hr. It great to be making that much for ones. But now I have a question for you. I work with 4 other machines and they hate scops. Even time i pull mine out they go nuts telling to pur that pos away that I should be able to diag without it. I know that the scop is the best tool to have. What should I do its frustrating to be in this spot.
Ignore them! There will be a time where you'll be able to prove yourself and it will shut them up. But let your work silence them. No need to talk or to defend yourself. Proud of you man!
Sir Paul, good day and may the god with you and your family. I just want to ask if, we can always use the LED test light on all low current circuits, as long as low current,I mean if we cannot hurt the module rather than using a incandescent test lights,.. specialy on which the driver is inside the computer or modules which is a very low current circuitry?....2nd is.,, the test lamp that good to use for outputs ex.actuators,solenoids,motors etc.....to verify the integrity of circuits and the present of current is incandescent test lamp as a load,and not a LED?
You have it all right. You can safely use the LED test light anywhere, in low and high power circuits because it wont load the device/circuit under test. However its high impedance and rectifying effects limits its usefulness when testing the circuit path integrity.
Hi Paul, as I have never used the scope and I just want to how the procedure for testing the primary and secondary ignition which abit confused .
Is it probing the coil while plugged in mean I am checking primary and coil unplugged means testing secondary.
Thanks
Sign up for the 14 day free trial I offer on my website and watch the other 7 parts to this series! You won't be disappointed.
www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html
Hope to see you there.
Hello. Paul If the control wire is shorted in a ground controlled circuit, since current follow the path of least resistance; will the current flow through the driver as well when commended on? Your answer would be very appreciated.
Power side switched circuit would cook the driver.
Ground side switched circuit would just turn the output on all the time, no driver damage.
@@ScannerDanner Thank you so much for your response. It is highly appreciated.
Paul quick question. Are the "transistors" that are built in to the coils true transistors or something like mosfet IBGT in nature? If they are truly transistor based, I think (in theory you could break the circuit to measure base current) and see if the transistor is switching and isn't fried. Mosfets are voltage threshold based (so base current isn't a thing it's zero) and saturates the substrates to low value RDs on (drain to source resistance while on - acting as close as possible to a short circuit). Anyways, I was trying to think about how you demonstrated the test light bulb / led situation and how perhaps these 2 types of semiconductors could throw a monkey wrench in troubleshooting tactics - - or perhaps open a new perspective to interpreting what we see on the scope or what our tools reveal. Great video as always!
I think in this context the transistor terminology/schematic symbol represents a collection of components. I think its an igbt with microcontroller frontend. Just think - if there is a pin which outputs diagnostic information like on the 4 wire coils, youd realise that these coils have a lot of intelligence in them
I'm not sure my friend, sorry
I have a 2014 cruze 1.4L has a coil pack my problem it's that burnt the coil in cylinder 1 and also the coil fuse after like a min. of start up,
My question is, do you think the pcm is holding the control to long on groung and over-charging the coil ??? or it could be the engine ground ???
First question. Was this an aftermarket coil? Or was it a factory one? Second question or comment, you absolutely need to test the PCMs control of this coil to be sure. Yes, it is possible the PCM driver failed and caused this as well as a wiring problem.
@@ScannerDanner first burnt the factory coil pack and the fuse also, replaced the fuse and then aftermarket coil pack same thing again burnt it after a min. or so.
many people told me it could be a engine ground, but I watch your video and I think it could be the pcm control,
@@100ega8 Have a good look into the pcm connector. These are known for leaking coolant through the harness into the connector and causing shorts. The root cause seems to be a bad ECT sensor.
This realization, that you can't get to the coil negative primary wire in a COP system was a forehead slapping moment for me. It didn't really sink in until I tried to find it one day. And I loved your demonstration of how an incandescent light with low resistance can drop voltage enough to almost erase the signal. By the way, is it fair to say that when testing primary voltage on an ignition coil there will never be enough of a voltage spike to justify a 10:1 voltage reducer to protect the scope? Is the voltage spike on the primary side naturally low because of the small number of windings on the primary side? Is it only needed on the secondary, or on injector leads?
On the style where you cannot get to coil -, yes, there is never a concern. But on the 2 pin COPs, that would not be true as you can tap into coil - and you'll see upwards of 400+ volt spikes on those. Definitely scope damaging signals for sure.
@@ScannerDanner Oh, of course! Brilliant explanation, that last piece of the puzzle just fell into place for me.
IGF = I GOT FIRED LOL THATS HOW I REMEMBERED IT
lol
IGF - I got Fire
IGT - I got Timing
How I always remembered Yota :)
@South Main Auto Repair LLC
I like yours Eric O.👍
I remember it as:
IGT: Ignition Triggered
IGF: Ignition Field (Collapsed)
Great ending. The real question is why the timing light failed? Was the timing light test gone before and after the ig coil was replaced? I think it is possible that the increased secondary current observed could be related to the cylinder's mixture/and compression curve....
Timing lights are triggered by the high KV, not current, which is super small. Low compression equals low kv to fire the plug. This is why the timing light test failed.
Do you have to use an attenuator on your scope if you are back probing the turn on turn off signal control wire?
You do not need an attenuator to check the control signal. This control signal is low voltage and there is no "inductive spike" on it.
as juergen said, no, not on this design, but also it is important that you know what the maximum voltage your scope can handle. For this model pico it is 200vdc spikes, anything higher than that I must use an attenuator. If I was viewing coil primary voltage (coil negative), then yes, I would absolutely want to use an attenuator
@@ScannerDanner awesome thank you.
So I would assume the Toyota diagnostic wire would also not require an attenuator as well?
@@mikesabin8568 that is correct
Where do you teach how to do a relative compression test if I am not in your class but am a subscriber?
I offer online classes via my website as you can see here. And I provide everything you need to be able to practice this stuff on your own. Obviously I cannot offer a global hands on class.
But we do offer in person training at Rosedale Technical College in Pittsburgh Pa
Where do I watch part 4 of this series?!
From my website:
To join my on-line technician training classes (ScannerDanner Premium) visit www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html
I offer a 14 day free trial. Thanks! Hope to see you there.
43:21 Not sure why but your vehicle in that still pico image has one injector event in 720* of engine rotation(that I can see) then no injector events for the rest of the screen capture? If that is valid I would be looking into that. Not spark-related (for now). I would be looking at inputs cam crank. Again if that pico image was in fact valid. I would also think this would have stalled the engine or at least made it run really bad if this was the case?? confused??
The images we are looking at on this box van are coil firing events with the current probe connected to the odd Bank and then even bank of cylinders at the fuse box and the voltage trace being one single coils trigger signal
What do you mean when your setting a trigger on the scan tool?
Lab scope you mean? Check out my picoscope basics part 1 and 2 videos for an answer to that
@@ScannerDanner So setting a trigger is basically when you want to look at the your details of the data?
@@johnmincik7246 setting a trigger will take a repeating waveform (like a fuel injector or ignition coil) and it tells the scope when to draw it on the screen. It then makes the signal stationary. This is hard to describe in text, check out these two videos.
th-cam.com/video/81AGbZcgCZs/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/ntJJYhkmR4I/w-d-xo.html
Hi
I have a Pontiac Montana 3.4 2004, The problem when trying to turn it on, it turns on for less than two seconds because and ECU stops fule injectors , I have quit. A lot of your videos about (ICM) and I have tested all the sensors,CKP signa,5 Volt Referenc,Control signal for Ignition ,working perfectly and there is no short circuit, the connection with the ecu is also excellent and no Check Engie on the dashboard , I suspect the protection system turns the car off after a second. My question is about your experience, can the Anti-theft system PassKey III, make the car turn on for a second and turn it off? Note that the lock alert sign disappears when the key is placed in the socket, and there are no error MIL. Sorry for the broken language, I live in Africa where I am thousands of miles away from you and there is no one to help me except for your videos.
Yes absolutely the antitheft system can do that.
No codes at all?
Cam and crank signals good?
I have the same desktop background.
IGF- Ignition Feedback
In service info I've read it's called an ignition confirmation signal. But I like ignition feedback. That would just make too much sense lol
Have you ever had a radio condenser causing a misfire ?
I think I have had one short out and blow the ignition coil positive supply fuse??
Are all 8 parts in premium now?
Yes, in my chapter 22 playlist
Hi ScannerDanner , I have subscribed to your channel after search TH-cam for help, and this channel is the best resource going. I been trying to get my Harley going with its ECM system going for weeks, it cranks but no spark, I have fault traced most of the system, and replaced the crank sensor,spark plugs and leads, and new coil.
These coils has four wires , 12v source, ion sense, ECM front trigger, and ECM rear trigger, but it doesn't have a GND
I have tested the wiring to the coil with a test light which confirm , I have source, ECM front trigger, and ECM rear trigger both pulses when cranked.
My digging around on the net has confirmed these coils don't use a negative GND on the secondary and rely on the spark jumping the gap to compete the circuit with the source linked to both primary and secondary of the coil, is this correct the way these three coils work , source, sense, and trigger, do you have a video on fault finding on these type of coils.
I just watched your bad block GND video, and my next step is going to check voltages, maybe not enough to jump the gap.
ECM front trigger and ECM rear trigger?? These are goofy names, one of those is definitely a ground and the other is a switched signal from the ECM
@@ScannerDanner Thanks for the reply, The ECM front, ECM rear are for front & rear cylinders, I have now found out this coil doesn't have the igniter on the coil but built into the ECM, so the ground is from the ECM side. I am now looking at a voltage drop and bad ground as my next possible fault, as the signal for the triggers is flickering very weak when testing with test light to ground, I also brought a USB oscilloscope yesterday. This has been a learning experience trying to fault find.
Hi scannerDanner I removed the battery box to get access to the block ground underneath, and sure enough the point where the main negative lead from the battery attaches to the motor, there is a voltage drop, the other 4 ground wires attached to the frame was fine. It didn't look badly corroded, but I disassembled and cleaned all the terminals of the ground , it fired straight up. your channel is a great resource , thank you
Hey man you're so cool I wish I had come across your channel years ago I'm just now learning something from my phone doing it myself type of guy you know I'm in Jamaica no one doesn't know this I'm a shamed to say this but I'm not bright but I'm practically very skilled i got a 3-cylinder carburetor engine just driving just learning the stuff someone would ask why am I just now learning this stuff I did not do well with anyone trying to teach me something that I cannot understand when I can understand something I catch on very fast and people they tell me I'm wrong but I think I'm not because if you cannot visualize and make sense of something it does not make any sense am I right but what I would really like right now is to get computer ? You know what I mean 🤫 if you don't mind I ask I would like some schematic diagram for my car it's a 96 daihatsu I don't have the cash but it's my project car my toy sorry and I mean not just the original but the upgrades as well thank you 👍
We don't have those here but you can check the data base first to see. This is the DIY version of the same service info I use eautorepair.adtrk.biz/?a=10817&c=24&p=r&s1=
Hey, SD, I have a question. After every lesson I generally do my best to apply that what you taught into practice, so I went to my brother in law's Mercedes C200 1.8 and back probed the coils (COP).
There are three wires, so one power feed and one ground (they share the same wire colours as the rest of the coils) and a control wire. If this helps, they are all the same gauge.
But when I tap into the control wire, all I am seeing is a secondary ignition waveform. I'm not seeing any sort of pulsing on and off signal.
Am I doing something wrong here? I mean, it isn't magic, those coils have to know when to turn off and on.
Is it some sort of power/ground side switching?
I haven't watched your other lectures on premium about ignition coils, so maybe I'm missing something obvious. I didn't have time yet as I was trying to diagnose a very slight misfire which I think I have. The secondary ignition waveform differs on one coil at the oscillations produced during spark. I compared to the other three and they all have around 4+ ups and downs (coil intermediate section?) This one coil only produces one.
I can feel I'm on the right track, as this waveform followed the coil but I watched this lecture just to make sure that the wires were showing proper values.
Thank you!
Although, if it's something obvious, you can give me a clue, I'll try to figure it out by myself. ;)
EDIT:
Although, I've just realised that primary and secondary ignition waveforms are very similar (as per Pico 6 Automotive).
I'll maybe go and study a bit more... Seems that I've been seeing a primary waveform in the wire this whole time.
But, where does the control come from?
I have some videos on the Euro design. Essentially the 3-wire coils are 2-wire designs. Coil positive (12v supply) and coil negative is switched directly by the PCM. The extra wire is a ground for the secondary winding. Instead of tying into coil +, they connect it to - (ground). GM HEI coils did it this way to many, many years ago. So what you are seeing is a primary voltage waveform, which mirrors exactly the secondary circuit.
@@ScannerDanner aaaaah, I see. That's what was confusing me. I'll definitely go check those videos out, do you remember the titles?
Thanks for the reply.
@Farseer1995 the one in particular I'm thinking of is on a 2016 Mini with a misfire, but that one is on my website.
I think I have one here on a VW Passat but that was a waste spark coil design (same thing though with the secondary winding being grounded)
BTW I offer a 14 day free trial to SD Premium, cancel before the 14 days are up and you won't be charged the $11 for the next month.
www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html
@@ScannerDanner I'm already on premium! I'm loving it, such a treasure trove of knowledge, it's dizzying. :)
I was watching your three part series about ignition waveforms, and in the meantime stumbled upon this video on YT.
Once I finish that 3 part I'll look into the videos you've named here, thank you so much.
I try to go with a certain plan following your chapters, but sometimes I need to skip around and find some random videos depending on the car problem I'm working on. I wasn't planning on doing ignition now, but my brother in law is one of those people that fuses to the car seat and feels every single ripple and he wants that gone.
All the best!
@Farseer1995 awesome! Here is the link to the mini
scannerdanner.com/scannerdanner-premium-chapters/misfire-case-studies/861-2017-mini-cooper-countryman-s-intermittent-misfire.html
Thank you!
Yup engine problem, burnt valve maybe🤦♂️
I say collapsed dod lifter.
@@allanb3222 oh yeah could be that too....what year is that🤔it may have DOD(DOD is a dumb design🙄)
@@allanb3222 I don't think those vans came with dod? I could be wrong, but I thought 4.8, 6.0 or 6.6l diesel only in those?
@@PhillyDee215 It's a 2016. So it's an l96. I thought it was dod, but it doesn't have that. But it does have vvt. Still it could be a collapsed lifter though. I would use an dial indicator gauge and measure the valve lifts at the rocker.
@@allanb3222 can't wait to see what they come up with😏i just took heads off a Chevy 6.0L....it killed my back so bad🙄
Is Cap a fugitive, why is he so afraid of the camara.
Personal preference
The new ignition systems with computer controls, should be done away with and go back to points, plugs, condenser, but with a CD ignition. NO STINKING COMPUTERS.
If the amperage is spiking lower than others then you would need to check power and grounds? either than that a higher spike can be a new aftermarket coil?
People love to spend their free time chilling with friends/family or watching movies or doing some other interesting things. I spend my free time watching your videoes.
I follow you from A-Z. I also started putting pocket screw driver in my pocket exactly like the way you do. Sorry for copying you.
I loved the fact you went on further diagnosing the actual cause of the misfire in this video.
Thank you.