How to Shoot the Shockwave w/ Demonstrated Concepts
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ค. 2022
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Rhett Neumayer is a guy with some really interesting and innovative thoughts on small arms training and handling. He runs Demonstrated Concepts, offering training classes on a variety of different firearms. You can check out his web site here:
demonstratedconcepts.com
Today, he is going to teach me how to properly use a Shockwave-type shotgun - exactly the thing I got some notoriety for haranguing a Mossberg rep about at SHOT several years ago. To Rhett, this configuration offers a number of advantages (including not being NFA regulated and being smaller than a stocked gun) and his shooting technique overcomes its limitations while exploiting its advantages.
So...let's see if I can get some shots on target without punching my teeth out!
Contact:
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THIS is why I love Forgotten Weapons! Ian doesn't care about "being right", he just wants to learn! He doesn't let ego get in the way of discovery! We need more of that in life in general and the firearms world in specific; because there are A LOT of people who create an opinion for themselves and never change their minds after that instant. Thank you Ian ♥
Gun Jesus is all forgiving
FB and social media subconsciously made many people less able to admit being wrong because "everyone is watching" and also the idea that anyone who is ever wrong about anything can never be trusted again ever, which is a ridiculous premise because it would mean nobody could be trusted since everyone is wrong thousands of times throughout life.
Someone had to develop a way to shoot a gun after it was made.
Great comment. And a great observation. This is exactly how I feel when I watch Ian with instructors or other channels but wouldn’t have thought to phrase it as you have.
you have to actually shoot these things to see how impossible some of these movie stunts are....
Ian "Nope that sucked. I hit myself right in the face with my knuckle."
Camera guy "Don't do that"
Ian "Yup"
I was in tears laughing
His hands were shaking so hard before that shot.
I was expecting the cameraman to say "Stop hitting yourself!", the way an older brother might say.
Bro same lol
I believe that was the voice of Matt Haught, a well known shotgun trainer
@@DWalter.27 I think that was just Karl. You wouldn't know this, but he actually won red oktober light division with his Arsenal SLR104
As a retired British shotgun coach, I have to agree that “stockless” shotguns can be fired quite safely and accurately without endangering eyes and teeth. The technique of “cheeking” the gun can only be done with pumps or semi-autos, but regular over-unders and side by sides can be shot using the technique taught by Percy Stanbury, the famous shotgun teacher in London. His “trick” was to push forward with the forend, and pull back with the trigger hand, as if stretching the gun like a piece of elastic. This holds the gun in “suspension” and soaks up most of the recoil. I have seen people shooting very fast close flying targets with this method, and the buttplate never touches their shoulder.
Sure mate. Big expert.
The pumping motion and the muscles involved should flow like a bow and arrow with one. My two cents as just an enthusiast is that if you aim this and treat it similarly to a bow. Holding the gun out in front of you. Pumping forward and then drawing back. As you pull the gun into tension with this motion you pull the trigger and begin pushing forward to rack the shotgun again. Thus when it does recoil you are actively pushing it forward with both arms in a way that cant be done with most weapons. Allows for very fast and intuitive follow up shots. Edit: also being such a short barrel with the other hand weld being right underneath the barrel and strapped to it. There is no muzzle flip that cant be controlled
That "pushing away" is standard practice if shooting uncomfortable/high recoiling gun.
@@gw5436 nice bait 🎣
@@ng.tr.s.p.1254 Everyone having a good mature conversation, but there always has to be that one douchecanoe.
Looking at this from a martial arts lense, by keeping your trigger hand, arm, shoulder, and lats flexed and solid, you transfer the recoil absorption into your lower trunk. Your face moves with the recoil impulse, keeping that gun from punching your teeth as your upper body drifts back as one solid unit. The tension allows for a quick reset for follow up shots. This is essentially all muscle memory after you do enough reps.
True. But it still looks like a really good way to give yourself Tennis elbow. The initial shock goes straight to the tendons in your elbow when you are flexing like that before the momentum goes to your trunk. And slugs aren't exactly known for gentle or smooth recoil.
@@cellphone3010 I thought tennis elbow was caused by over extension? It's how I got it and it took over three years to completely recover :(
@@cellphone3010 Not really. Tendonitis is caused by long term repetitive action over months or years, often due to the over stressing of a particular area in isolation (had it due to my job using power tools for hours on end every day). Once a person gets comfortable with going though a motion like this shooting technique, it becomes a tense and release mechanic. To go back to the martial arts analogy, you don't stay braced to absorb a kick the entire time, but tense only when you know it's coming. Same thing with this shooting technique. You tense just before the shot, hold through any follow up shots, then relax.
@@cellphone3010 not true, the only way anyone can get tennis elbow is by actually playing tennis
Without pushing through and throwing it off.
Imagine not being able to fire a stockless shotgun like the Terminator
Or in this case, like Kyle Reese
very true
T2 my man.
Hello there.
My home defense setup is a Harley and a cut down Winchester 1887 Shotgun. Finding a house with a long enough hallway is the real tricky part.
I love how Ian keeps an open mind and is receptive to learning, as well as being able and willing to change his perspective on something by putting forth effort and attempting to do so. Shows a lot of integrity that isn't quite so common on this platform.
Thats why his reaction to the MOA of the Franklin Armory football bullet surprised me.
Isn’t common among most folks,
He *is* a trained engineer. It shows.
@@lairdcummings9092 He's a degree'd engineer. I'm unsure of how much experience he as as a working engineer or what additional formal training he has in the engineering field.
@@thomasbecker9676 that's more than sufficient training in how to maintain an open mind. I rest my case.
As a 32 year old woman that has struggled learning the shockwave compared to other platforms, i really appreciate this wrist strap. If you follow along this video with a shockwave in your hands it helps tremendously. So much useful information that is changing the way i hold and aim the shockwave for the better. No more punching myself in the face and explaining to everyone my husband did not hit me!
Ywnbaw
I'm purely curious. What is better about this weapon (for home defence) than almost any 9mm pistol? Considering total firepower, reloading, ability to use it one handed, very close range, in a scuffle, with one arm/hand/shoulder/hip impaired, weight, bulk, ease of use, target acquisition, accuracy, training/currency and convenience, speed of use, no requirement for a wrist wrap and any pints that you may find important to compare: Which would you really prefer for home defence?
@@luchsmaballz I simply prefer a shotgun for home defense. I have pistols for concealed carry outside of my home but i wouldn't ever choose a pistol round before a shotgun in terms of home defense. call it irrational but after learning how to use a shockwave i just prefer it. Try to rationalize things all you want bud 😂
@@camimayer5359 I personally prefer shotguns for the stopping power. If some addict high on fentanyl breaks into my house then he isn't going to react much to getting hit by 9x19 since fentanyl is 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine, but 12x70 buckshot will do something for sure regardless of pain tolerance.
Ya but....in the dark will you be able to get your hand in the wrist strap? How about considering the Mossberg .410 with Critical Defense ammo??
Ian, this is your version of Skallagrim's "end him rightly". You're re-examining something you ridiculed- and certainly NOT without qualification and reason- that made you famous, and giving it a second chance to work. Nice job!
When Ian is firing pommels instead of slugs, then he will truly “end him rightly”
Skallagrim and Ian, these are the crossovers I live for
@@den2k885 gun Jesus and grumpy Viking.....a match made in heaven
Fancy seeing another skallagrim enjoyer here. I suppose that it only makes sense that you'd watch both Gun Jesus' and Sword Jesus' content.
@@angelsfallfirst7348 I mean I think there's a decent crossover from people who enjoy (often obscure) firearms to people who enjoy swords/axes/maces/etc.
The fact Ian didn't stop after a solid face slap (or 3) is a testament to how willing he is to learn this new style, which after a box or so seems like he has it down.
The effort to overcome already established techniques was enlightening and impressive.
I'm particularly interested in this technique due to a medical issue. My heart pacemaker had to be relocated to my right (dominant) shoulder due to an infection. It leaves me unable to shoulder and fire a stocked firearm.
I've found that, under stress, until you make it really ingrained in your conditioned response/reflexes, you will revert to what you've been doing for years. You really have to put yourself under intense pressure to see what happens, as sometimes you will do things that never happen when just doing regular range training.
Not very impressive. 17:23 this guy is chicken winging it after all the speeches.
@@alexb7641 how many rounds do you think Ian has fired with his elbow out?
Rhett is one of my favorite "thinkers" on the gunternet. He's also useful as a shibboleth for identifying people to not listen to.
Honestly, Rhett has a lot of very unique well thought out ideas on a ton of stuff. He is a very high level shooter and tests the ideas under pressure with a lot of shooting. Really like his stuff
Yep,
Anybody who calls bs on this hasn't seen his shooting videos. Not only an excellent shot, not only a critical thinker capable of creative solutions, he is also able to teach it effectively.
I love Rhett’s videos and have a recoil strap as well. I have said this in other comments, he is the Jedi Master of all things “stockless”!
He's a very cheeky guy.
With no stock on the shotgun you get 20% ADS movement speed, and 6% sprint speed. But you get more ADS bullet spread and 15% recoil increase, unless you use other attachments to mitigate that.
Laser sight and you can hipfire with no penalty, op attachment. Never leaves my room.
Very interesting, not familiar with your terminology though, I will google it.
@@howardmaryon It's a joke about video games.
Definitely a 20% loss in control as well
And 80% more loot drops
If you make the bird head grip longer, you would end up with a stock similar to a Portuguese/Japanese style matchlock musket. This debate is much older than one might think.
Mate that was exactly what i was thinking japanese matchlocks cheek stocks but i guess the kick of the ole black powder guns is more progresive than the modern 12..
How do we justify the added length to the feds?
Are you going to claim it's a 2 handed grip?
Slap a ball on the end and you also have a club or mace. 🤣
@@lordhefman It's to defend the life of your dog.
@@FoxtrotFleet I'm just saying, I like the idea but I can totally see some fed claiming it's a stock.
I think the most important thing to take from this is that we should always try to walk off our comfort zone and be open minded about everything. I still think this kind of stock is BS but the cheek wielding is a interesting concept.
I bought a shockwave right when they came out as a joke but I've grown to actually like it a lot.
I did a similar wrist loop to brace my right hand because my very first shot with it was a 2 1/2" slug and I almost dropped the thing.
@Robert Sears Did you try it?
@@the_inquisitive_inquisitor Bad choice for a first shot xD
@@Aggemannen117 It was an indoor range so they said I couldn't use spreadshot. Didn't shoot it again for 6 months
After getting used to it I can bust clays pretty well with it but not as good as with a full stock
@Robert Sears This guy would out shoot most people using this technique. He proved it works.
Rhett put a lot of time, effort, and thought into this, and can demonstrate it on the range. I respect that. It's more than most people here can say.
Bro this is like learning thr baseball grip merhos on guitar. It sounds crazy at first but it does allow things conventional approaches don't.
I'm not sold on this as a technique but it's interesting to see and i give Ian credit for being open minded.
the cheek pistol idea is what sold me
Lucas it works. As stated there is no where for the gun to go if done in a correct manner..
@@gregchamberlain7554Yeah but to be consistent with it is a whole issue in and of itsef
You would have to retrain for what I would argue is minimal benefit. I would also bet you can be more accurate, faster with a stock.
Still. What Carl and Ian said still is true. You need to practice quite a bit more to make one of those guns work as well as a regular one with a stock.
Rhetts point is that you should practice and when you do, practing only one technique is much more efficient. Stating that Using a stock close quarters will require practice of two or more ways of getting that stock out of the way when necessary.
But they were wrong to be so harsh on a new concept that pushes for new ideas.
Don’t stop progress, it takes more skill to do other things but what does that matter?
It takes a bit more time to get use to it?
Nothing wrong with that.
And what if someone just wants one for fun not a serious tool?
Which I think the whole point in these were anyway.
You need to practice with a regular stock before it works well too. Why do you think a bird's head grip would be some magic bullet that magically makes a person a marksman?
@@timhorton8085 with respect where did Rhett, Ian or anyone above say anything like that? What was said was that it is possible to fire a birdshead effectively without punching yourself in the face. It would require practice but only of one technique which is more efficient than using a stocked gun would require practice of two or more ways of getting that stock over your shoulder, etc in a cqb situation.
@@CJ4S147 They didn't, that's the point. Voelund said you need to practice to get good. That's true with every firearm regardless of grip or technique.
"In this episode, Ian flogs a dead horse whilst desecrating the holy Chicken Wing."
That horse had it coming!
@@MesaperProductions indeed it did
Why the Chicken wing? Is it an IMPOSTA?! 😂
When I was a little kid, my grandfather's "truck gun" was a Remington pump .22 that he's trimmed the stock down to a birdshead. This very similar to the technique he used and taught me almost 40 years ago, right down to elbow-to-the-ribs. The big difference is the thumb and the strap, which should make 12ga more manageable. General purpose technique? No. Special technique for special purpose tools? Yes.
That sounds like a perfect little truck gun.
@@justindunlap1235 my wife bought a Shockwave in .410.... I laughed but it's turned out to be my favorite toy for clay rabbit she uses it as a truck gun it fits right in the door... can't even see it...
Kevin, your brain disconnects for non-cheek weld type shooting. I don't have any issues going between a long gun as opposed to a Shockwave or a Tac-14.
I wouldn't call myself an expert in anything, but I always felt that the Shockwave was more conceptually sound than Ian gave credit for.
I think its pretty neat he gave it a second chance.
Lived/live in Alaska and Maine. The Shockwave was/is my favorite weapon when I had to go into deep thick brush. I mounted a good quality laser sight on it that was grip-activated. In the spring you are dealing with Moose Cows with calves and the same with Bear Sows and cubs. The Shockwave was perfect for keeping close to the body and not getting tangled in briars and other undergrowth. The laser sight made it so I could hip fire it and put rounds on target. As with all weapons training is the key.
That guy is a really good teacher. Seems very patient and understands that skills take time and effort to master, but also understands the importance of cross-application of skills.
I too find it humbling and amazing to see Ian keep an open mind on a subject that he had already expressed his personal opinion on but was still willing to learn when someone came with a different opinion and a in this case, came also with a method that a stockless shotgun can work and be effective.
Fascinating to see just how much more nuanced this technique is than just "have a recoil strap and hold the grip on your cheek."
Watch videos of Japanese samurai reenactors with cheek stock matchlocks. They have a hold that makes the recoil go sideways away from their faces. They sometimes shoot some real hand cannons with 1” plus bores. The muzzle sweeps away to the side.
I have shot a 50 caliber cheek stock matchlock that way and it works.
I was about to reply the same thing! I was going to say that if you search "samurai guns" you'd see videos of a similar technique.
shhhh, stop bringing logic, research, and alternative information sources into this.
@@Armored_Muskrat There was a point due to armor. Breastplates, pauldrons, and the like do not work well with shoulder stocks. Cheek stocks persisted among armored soldiers. For the Japanese, that was until the mid-19th century. Cavalry carbines had cheek stocks well into the 1600s.
@@Armored_Muskrat matchlocks had stocks before they were brought over to Japan.
I looked up those videos, and it seems like they use a completely different technique. Where this guy is mostly concerned with absorbing the recoil into your arm, the old Japanese were concerned with redirecting the recoil. They seem to stand completely to the side perpendicular to their target and hold the fire control arm out to the side to guide the firearm away from their face. Now I kinda wanna see these guys try that out to see how well that works.
I'm impressed that Ian took the time to try something new and then admitted that he was in error--that it was a matter of technique. I learned something, too.
For folks that seem confused by the point of this, it's not demonstrating that a stock less shotgun is better, it is showing that with practice you can get a lot of the same effect out of a gun that is in a less than optimal configuration due to stupid gun laws. You also retain the advantages of its relatively compact form factor over a conventional SBS.
Yes, if this is not something you want to take the time to learn and perfect, it's not for you.
Yes if you want to avoid NFA entanglements, and get a short shotgun, there are bullpups.
But I would note that the bullpup shotguns out there have their own unique manual of arms, unconventional idiosyncrasies like trying to load a KelTec, or multiple magazines and awkward pump throw.
There is no free lunch.
Based take
@Jill Kews Yeah a shorter version of what I said.
He had to do a lot of out of the box thinking and unorthodox practice to get this technique locked down, but he likely wouldn't have done so if this gun didnt exist. And it only exists because it exploits an NFA loophole. That is its whole point. Everything afterwards is just trying to justify its purchase.
Buy that isn't what is being said in this video at all. 16:22 Rhett is given the opportunity to basically say what you said and he doesn't. He *prefers* this over a stocked SBS.
@@sheldoniusRex For the form factor and compactness. He also laid out his use for it( here and elswhere). Its a truck gun and concealable in places that an SBS is.
For what he is uses it for it is preferable, and he has spent so much time with it it's more familiar now too.
I remember reading about his process working this technique out on forums a couple of years ago.
Also, he is teaching a class here, it's his brand, hes not going to knock it.
I personally don't have a use for either a shockwave or this technique, so it's all academic for me.
@Beaverish Buck Teeth The stubbie gun he is using isn't considered a short barreled shotgun, unlike the one Ian had. Thanks to dumb laws here, shotguns with less that an 18 in barrel require lots paperwork, special dealers and come with inherent legal issues. The one without the stock however is as easy to acquire as an 18in one, so it gets you a shorter gun without all the hassle.
I have a Mossberg Shockwave that I haven't had out yet. This was an extremely informative video... Thank you!!!
same. just bought my 590 shockwave last night.
I'm very skeptical of this design of shotgun, but I give the guy credit for taking it work. Colour me suprised.
Clint smith had a good video on how to use the Shockwave
I bought one as a joke a couple years ago and I've grown to actually like it a lot. I can hit clays with mine pretty consistently - although definitely worse than with a full stock.
@Robert Sears can you explain why?
@Robert Sears Smh
@Robert Sears I believe my lying eyes, not you.
Simply having a very short stock would give you basically the same length in use, but with your shoulder eating the recoil and giving more stability.
LMT’s compact stock or a lot of PDW stocks seem great for this application
Agreed, this is a solution in search of a problem.
The reason for the shockwaves size and grip is that it is not classified as a short barrel shotgun, so requires no registration and tax stamp, so while a stocked gun would of course be better for most sensations, you can’t get the barrel length as short without a tax stamp
@@Whitpusmc this is created due to NFA regulations.
@@RaddestDad Yes I get it, but for me I’d rather either pay the $200 and get a firearm that I feel more comfortable using or use an AR.
As a civilian I’m not going to be doing CQB or room clearing, I’m getting to a position of tactical advantage and calling the police. An AR or even a regular shotgun works fine for holding my position. Maybe SWAT or SF would find an application for this but they can just use a short barreled shotgun, no tax stamp needed. So it still seems like more of a range toy. BUT each to their own and I’m not claiming to be an expert, just my opinion.
I loved this. This is the kind of experimentation and demonstration that helps improve firearms usage. I think there is a place for these super shorties.
Two of the best innovator and knowledgeable gun tubers I am super glad to see them together imagine what those two could come up with if they worked together on random wild ideas
Found Demonstrated concepts from i think thunder ranch or someone else talking about shooting shockwave/tac14s, this man can shoot his ass off. He does what a lot of other folks in the industry only dream of. Actually getting people excited to get out and learn.
This collab makes my day… and then I get to watch the video. Thank you
The cool thing of this technique is the built in negative reinforcement.
Would it be positive reinforcement because you get something?(a punch in the lip) Negative would be taking something away, right?
@@jart83 The thing being taken away is tranquility.
@@jart83 I think it then becomes Positive Punishment as the thing added is a punishment rather than reinforcement
This was awesome to see, been watching the Demonstrated Concepts videos since I think Lucky Gunner first recommended him, love his outside the box thinking that the firearms community needs!
A specific technique that you have to do exactly right versus a good stock that points naturally...
A good stock with an additional $200 tax stamp, waiting period, fingerprinting, a registry, and having to notify law enforcement when you leave the state...
This technique for this type of shotgun is not "new" what so ever. It IS good to see it on video, to quickly show how it is done, to demonstrate it to folks that can not seem to understand how effective it truly is. I have been showing folks here and there this for decades. THANK YOU for helping bring this to light !!
Rhett has mentioned before that this is not a new technique he "discovered" just something that works for him and he wants to bring exposure to for modern shooters.
@@DarkMatter946 Indeed, thus the "THANK YOU for helping bring this to light !!" . Because this is Forgotten Weapons, not Rhett's channel...and I do not recall Rhett making any mention of the age of the technique in this video.
@@spektr540hemi I apologize if I came off any type of way in that reply. I was referencing other content in which I've seen Rhett talk in depth about himself and the things he teaches. Have a good weekend ✌️
@@DarkMatter946 No worries and no offence taken. Thank you for the clarification tho'. My reply was hasty and obviously clumsy... I was attempting to agree and elaborate further. Also, thank you for the kind sign off, far too little of that sort of thing these days. To wit I would like to extend the same curtesy to you in return, have a good week end.
@@spektr540hemi For sure, man! Too much hate in the world. Let's make the internet a nicer place!
Been waiting for a video like this to show me what would be the proper grip, stance and compressed hold for something like a Remington Tac 13. Thanks boys!!! Especially you, Ian!
In Canada where getting a permit to carry a hand gun for wilderness defense is near impossible short shot guns which are legal and can be carried in a wilderness setting are a very viable option
you can do a lot worse than a stockless 12 gauge for presumably bear defense. i would take it over a .44 magnum.
@@richardlooch2109 we also have short barrel stock less lever actions.
@@longstar550 if i were to get a lever gun a major concern for me would be accuracy. and a stockless platform isnt great for that.
I would prefer the shockwave over a handgun for being in the wilderness anyway because of the variety of ammunition types. Not only can it be used for defense but you got 12 gauge flares for signals in emergency & dragons breath to start fires(you may burn down the forest but you definitely won't freeze)
@@seansimmons73 can’t have dragon breath in canada ,or any type of incendiary ammo, but flares ammo are legal
So basically, you use your bunched up arm AS a stock, braced against your ribs.
99% of yall are missing the point. There are states where a "firearm" is a lot easier to acquire than other firearms. There are states where NFA items are banned. There are states where a braced shockwave would be an "assault weapon".
This is one of those weird niche things that is a middle finger to the ATF, and to local governments, that are too bureaucratic & moronic to understand the real issues.
I like that someone is coming up with good ways to fill in some of the questionmarks left by weird/nonstandard, but popular, firearms designs, That are marketed & sold like crazy.
Not gonna lie, this idea actually makes a lot of sense to me for my current situation. This "firearm" could be a lot less of a headache than my other options (AR, P365) if i had to get into a defensive encounter in my current situation. 🤷♂️ i dont yet own a shockwave/12ga "firearm", but this manual of arms might just convince me otherwise
Except then he claims its just as good as having a stock…
Kudos to Ian for being willing to literally take one on the chin and either eat his knuckles or his words.
Fantastically enlightening. Thanks to demonstrated concepts and to you, Ian.
I love the way just as Ians kinda coming around on it and getting better, you can hear someone in the background going "I think I'm done for the day, my elbow reaaaally hurts!"
I believe that is John Correia from Active Self Protection that says that. You see him in the background a couple of times.
@@jeffreywacker3598 yeah I thought that looked like him, he'd be the type to whinge like that.
This guy got a rep for whining or what?
Good for him to recognize the pain and respect it. Nothing badass about injuring yourself.
John Correa had an elbow injury he was talking about in another video; I believe it was unrelated to this training
Cool to see Rhett here, his content is very interesting
one of the biggest takeaways i'm seeing and that ian demonstrates (and painfully) so well is the need to learn a completely new way of shooting for this method. fully squared off stance, completely tucked shooting arm, loose grip and trigger slap. contradictory in nearly every way to typical shooting basics. very difficult to say the least. great job. i dig this. might look in to it further.
This guy is awesome to have figured this out.
Fun concept, might be worth to learn just to explore more and maybe find something in combination that gives you even more than one or the other.
I would encourage to explore it for sure. Ive been shooting my shotgun like this. I actually took a deer with mine last year. I run an 18 inch barrel and it still is a very small form factor. Works excellent. Im also using his cheek-weld concept for my AR pistol and find its working very well for me.
@@PracticalReformation you know? Doing this with a shotgun instead do an aow makes a certain amount of sense. If you decide you don't like it in a few years you can just throw a stock on. I might actually do this
as a last resort you can use it as a club
@Robert Sears try it out. Its not a joke, seriously it works.
@@cwg9238 for retention in close quarters such as if you were surprised by an assailant while trying to clear your home or something thats another big advantage over traditional shotgun is that there is no stock to interfere with using it as to defend yourself or fend off someone at point blank range. It allows you the leverage to ensure someone cant take it from you as well.
this is like the school bully of guns: "stop hitting yourself! stop hitting yourself! stop hitting yourself!"
Thank you for bringing this content forgotten weapons kind sir. The practical application of shooting techniques shown coupled with your personal review (and vetting the chaff from the wheat, no doubt) of them are a welcome and worthwhile addition to the channel as far as this interested follower is concerned.
Being from a different country with much more restrictive fire arm laws, even when in a shooting club and with a fire arm license, the techniques shown are not something that we can put in to practice here. Very informative to view.
Allowing others with an interesting or innovative approach to training and use of firearms like this to shine on your channel, giving them a stage...a class act mr. McCollum.
Following your channel with much pleasure from the Netherlands. With kind regards.
yes! rhett is awesome glad to see a video with ian!
He aims it like my friend aimed my pistol grip shotgun (that I sold). I was too scared to aim it like that because I was afraid it end up whacking myself in the mouth, so I held it at my hip. Notice I said I sold it……
Your smarter than I am, 30 years ago I was messing around with a pistol grip 870, still got the scar on my face to prove it
Back in the 20’s and 30’s era, in the reign of Bonnie&Clyde, and she wielded the BAR like a champion combat master (all 98 pounds of her) Clyde took a RemM11 (Browning Auto-5 sans magazine cutoff) sawed the stock off just behind the pistol grip, ran a cross bolt thru a leather strap about an inch or so wide and long enough to loop over his shoulder ( a single point sling! ) and sawed the barrel off just in front of the magazine. He could hang it over his shoulder and conceal it under an overcoat, but “whip it” out at a moment’s notice to fight. He called it his “whippit gun”. Bound to have kicked like an ornery farm mule, but it was effective. John Dillinger knew a very talented gunsmith in Chicago who converted a 5” Government Model 1911 to full auto, he mounted a Thompson vertical finger grip forearm to it and cut several magazines and components down and welded them back together to make functional extended magazines (genius!!!) If anyone wants to see them you can look up the pictures of their gun collections taken by the FBI. There used to be a video of them shooting the 1911, I haven’t looked at it in years, don’t know if our YT overlords have deemed it unworthy to see or not.
Fascinating concept that I love learning about!
This method works very well in VR where it's isnt easy to attach your controller to a stock. A tube with a tennis ball and some rubber band will work. Aiming in VR became much more stable with cheek wielding. This really helped me out.
Excellent video. More Rhett please. The guy knows his stuff.
I think many folks commenting below are missing the point of this. The Shockwave is indeed a niche weapon but it is still a 12 guage shotgun which is a powerful defensive tool when used within its limitations. This technique is offering a means of turning the Shockwave from a novelty into a viable defensive tool that is very handy in extremely close up encounters. As a former vehicle borne soldier and as a current trucker these sorts of ultra compact weapons and the means by which to use them effectively is very interesting to me. Plus it is always nice to see some out of the box thinking.
You're talking to deaf ears. People don't care if it's just an explanation on how to use it better. They just want to hate on it because the video didn't prove it's better than all the other guns in existence.
@@Armored_Muskrat "Exactly right"? Ian did it in 3 or 4 tries and his mistake was holding it like a normal longer shotgun. Keeping his arm away from the torso instead of close. And even he said that worse case scenario you just hit your chin with your knuckle and nothing else. There's even comments of police officers here saying they did shoot like this too because other shotguns are too big and wouldn't allow them to handcuff people or chase them in closed spaces. Saying it's the worst because you're using different standards is the real problem. It's like saying revolvers are the worst ever, specially the big caliber ones, because you can get glocks with long mags and less recoil.
Crazy that I just watched Ian's cheek pistol video again about 2 hours ago.
Ian IS the TH-cam algorithm.
They don't call him gun Jesus for nothing. Just making the algorithm work in mysterious firearm related ways
What you've done with that strap is truly a revelation for that firearm! Shear genius!
Thanks for giving space for new ideas
I'd rather an 18" barrel with a short stock instead. I appreciate the commitment to trying to make this platform work, and I can definitely appreciate kicking it to the NFA SBS rules, I would never trust this method to be reliable in a stressful situation.
Just for kicks, check out Rhetts channel, he actually prefers the full 18" barrels
Have you ever tried it, or have you come to a conclusion with no experience in the matter?
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz This is absolutely designed for awkward angles and negotiating obsticals. Just look at his TH-cam channel and you'll see him demonstrating its effectiveness
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz And you think a full size shotgun with a stock is good for weird angles?
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz So all the folding and collapsible stocks, along with the MP5K were all invented and mass produced and mass adopted for no fucking reason?
Interesting.
I am interested in the Shockwave because it is one of the few shotguns that will cycle the mini-shotgun shells which I thought might mitigate the recoil some. I had not considered shooting it from this position.
That guy is a remarkable communicator, really understood what he explained.
His concepts are interesting because of what he's able to pioneer using a red dot
I like that people are trying to adapt this weapons design. I tried a brace on my shockwave and frankly it lost its magic and just wasn't appealing. Granted this technique needs practice and dedication but just like anything else it can be done. Great to see Ian coming back to this and being open.
Why follow tradition that works when you can work really hard to look like a fool right? 😜
@@beargillium2369 "why train to become more effective when i can arbitrarily appeal to "this is how we always did it"
@@callsignapollo_ you might want to look up the word "arbitrary"
@@beargillium2369
All hail the smart guy in the room. You've figured it all out for us. Thank you, O wise and calcified dinosaur of Fuddtastic ideals.
@Bear Gillum
His use of the word was entirely apt.
Sounds like we need to get the CAD bois out and ready to design a purpose built grip.
Pretty smart concept. He is transmitting the recoil through his ribs down to his centre of gravity 👍👍
I've spent a good bit of time with a birdshead grip Mossberg like this one. Even with a lot of practice I don't find it as useful as a short stock that has a pistol grip such as the type on a Benelli M1.
Oh yeah the one you can put on M1, M2, M3, M4...
That stock doesn't look short.
Ive tried both. I prefer the shockwave.
I find it interesting that the comments section is an odd mix of admiring that Ian is willing to try new things or condemning the concept on its face as garbage.
Both can be true lol.
It is garbage, like taking a pinto to the drags, yeah you can do it but no body sane thinks its a good idea.
@@ancientrenegade9243 Honestly, most firearms are basically the pinto.
For example, all those hyper small 9mms that weight nothing and are going to have much higher recoil.
This is despite that people ran away from the M1911 for having too much recoil, when mathematically due to the M1911 being a lot heavier. It has recoil only so much worse than a Glock 19.
@@ancientrenegade9243 nobody is talking about doing the firearms equivalent of racing with a stock less shotgun. The Pinto is more useful than a race car for 90% of car owners. I don't think this is the end all be all for shotguns, but to say it's trash and has NO use whatsoever for anyone is presumptuous.
@@DarkMatter946 ah I see the 'I can't afford a HK' crowd have arrived.
In this episode Ian unlearns how to hold a gun for target shooting.
Mossberg needs to hire this guy to make a promo video
Never seen Ian look so terrified as that first shot. Literally shaking at 7.00. Brave dude!
Isn’t he essentially creating a stock out of his arm structure?
*ATF has entered the chat*
yep, I think it probably works better too if you have some more meat and knowledge of structure/muscles/flexing. If everything is flexed into the side of your body, there's not really anywhere for the recoil to go, vs holding it out there's nothing buffering it.
@@RacerX-124 😂😂👍
He is creating a shock absorber/spring, as opposed to a shoulder stock which will be much longer.
@@RacerX-124 the ATF approved them as FIREARMS not a shotgun.. Totally legal I'm afraid..
Remember when the "C clamp grip" was "a weird technique"..?
About 30 yrs ago I was showing some friends how this basic technique...Mossy 590 with the old mossy pistol grip. One of my budies did indeed give himself a bloody lip, even after watching his rather small girlfriend do it flawlessly. To this day He just refused to learn. He also refuses to understand the "C clamp", and still uses the old chicken wing bladed stance for shoulder fired weapons.
Glad to see Rhett on your channel.
Im excited now! Im going to get that strap and next time i go to the range im going to practice this. I was kind of afraid to do anything but shoot from the hip or stomach level.
I'm still unconvinced by its benefits, inside a building you're still no better off losing a few inches, the only place I can reasonably see it being better than a full length short barrel shotgun would be if someone is behind a open door, and even then you'll still be presenting a shotgun barrel side on before you're on target to actually point at that target, you could back away from the door as you enter, but you can do that with a stocked shotgun just as easily.
A shotgun with a stock can also be more feasibly fired one handed braced against your shoulder, it'll be a wild ride either way but certainly no worse than firing it like a pistol, and as for firing from inside a car... If you've got to fire from inside a car out, and you're at risk of being shot at, getting out the car is more important, police officers call cars driving tombs for a reason and while you couldn't fire a full length shotgun without a open window or by feeding your passenger muzzle blast you're still limited to the same firing arcs with 3, 4 even 5 inches off the guns length, so I really can't see how it's any better, unless you're storing it somewhere, in which case yes it's smaller, but is it enough smaller, to be worth carrying over something significantly more compact like a pistol with a laser pointer? I don't think so personally
A homeowner clearing a house is usually a bad idea. Personally if a guy is hiding on either side of an open door he's made a huge mistake in thinking he has cover. He doesn't, he has concealment. If i know he's there im just shooting through the drywall. Houses mostly offer concealment at best, not cover. Almost anything in the home can be fired through effectively (so if you have others in the home be mindful).
@Exeunt Omnes - TH-cam is a terrorist organization im not alone but no kids so everyone important is already in the room with me anyway :)
If your barrel is pointed up and you meet some one around a corner then it's generally harder to shoot them. If it's pointed down then you can shoot their lower body.
He actually addresses this in one of his Instagram posts. With a stopless shotgun you've got a shorter overall length, and you're able to drop levels IE bend the knees and get the firearm into a firing position all while being in a more advantageous position overall. So it's less about moving it up and more about changing levels and it's probably easier to change levels and you'll have more biomechanical strength doing that as well
@@yardsale09 lot more muscle usage mind
@@yardsale09 Hmm. Idk.
@@yardsale09 or you could use a 5-9" pistol/SBR 9mm carbine and it will do anything a pump shotgun will do and it will do it better. Worried about not doing enough "damage"? Pull the trigger twice. You can put out way more shots from a 9mm carbine in the same amount of time as you could use a pump shotgun. And all without the worries of short stroking it, etc.
A carbine is just better. Like others have said, this is just trying to find a use for something thats a product of silly legal restrictions.
@@bp968 That is amazingly dumb. A drug addict high on who knows what can take multiple magazines without flinching. By the time you're done wasting a million magazines you'll be bleeding due to all the stabs you got in the neck and chest. I've seen cops die like that multiple times. (And some even started shooting from 15 feet away while running backwards to try to stay away from them and they still got stabbed in the chest and died.)
Something that rip a chunk of their body while kicking them back is always better.
i think he's an innovator, props. great vid
I would go with a Semi Auto for this. I'm not into home defence but could see this being a good fit for special forces and police tactical squads. I'm glad that Ian is willing to change his mind if given more information! That to me says a lot about the man. Cheers for OZ
Rhett is a visionary, taking old concepts and rethinking them, Ian has such integrity he can make a video and admit he was mistaken. I'm really glad these two got together and I hope to see Rhett make the rounds on all the firearms channels on TH-cam.
Just because somebody figured out a way to adapt to a bad design and make it useable, doesn't mean Ian was wrong in the first place.
@@netpackrat if you can take a design that is well nigh unusable as the birds head shotguns are when compared to standard shotguns and make it better than a standard shotgun for CQB and home defence, you have changed the game, Ian was correct in his first assessment of the gun, but Rhett flipped the dynamic and Ian was smart enough to recognize it.
Well here is the thing. If you want to use it his way , then do it. If you dont then dont. Hes merely explaining his technique and showing what he can on a short video platform. Probably not for everyone but i myself think it's interesting amd had a lot of thoughts about the same thing myself. No need to criticize it. Either do it or dont.
Get that calm, considered, well-actualized approach out of here, this is the comment section.
@@sean7456 yeah what was i thinking?
I bought a Henry Mares leg back in 2014. I would 'cheek' it like demonstrated in this video. I could hit steel at 75 yards with no issues. Very effective technique
always good to learn a new method!
Something I can't remember being said is that when you chickenwing the but of the gun will tend to move in towards your face when it recoils. Pressing your elbow to your body the but of the gun will instead move slightly up on recoil. That is in addition to the added stability and ability to soak recoil. So tuck that elbow even if it feel unnatural at first.
my wrist hurts watching you guys shoot this
Excellent video, thank You. I appreciate the knowledge. It is improving my shooting.
I love Rhett's presentation style.
I don't deny that Rhett can effectively shoot using this technique. However it begs the question "Is the marginal upside of a few inch reduction in overall size worth learning a new skillset that is counter to all of the time and muscle memory you've spent during your life shooting long guns?"
It seems like an answer to a question no one is asking. I've seen lasers and lights attached to one of these and by 'firing the beam', you can hold it any way that you like. This doesn't look like a technique that improves anything, unless you want to use an optic. And even then, meh.
@@pistonar They clearly showed why this technique is beneficial. Because without it there is literally no point to this gun, the effective length in shooter's arms is exactly the same unless you compress it.
That's it for me. Doable, but pointless and will never be better for shooting than a stock.
@@Reriiru The first major problem with the cheek method is getting your hand inside the recoil strap from any relaxed state, and going into emergency-mode. It's absolutely vital to the entire process. If the mess hits the fan and you grab your gun, you probably want to fiddle as little as possible in order to simply be able to fire the weapon safely and accurately. Second issue: no off-hand capability whatsoever. Unless you want to tie on another strap, transitions to off-hand is not an option. And, even if you did put on another recoil strap, again, you will be fiddling to ensure your hand gets into the strap when you need to be looking for threats.
It's a very interesting method. Quite novel. It does have certain advantages, but for the generally-stated purpose of "self-defense in tight confines"? Is it really that-great a choice over SBS? Or just use a big-bore handgun in the first place?
@@SpartacusColo And he mentions near the end when they are discussing the strap that it's not required, it's just the way he prefers to teach the method. Still, valid points though that do need to be considered.
I think there's a rabbit hole effect here, trying to take a platform and progress for knowledge how far you can take it is one thing thats perfectly fine, turning it from an experiment to a 2 day class seems like justification for that effort.
Unless it fundamentally changes the way you shoot. And approach close quarters gunfights in general.
He's done a lot more than just proof of concept testing. He's advocating for an entirely different musculoskeletal grip than what people are familiar with... but in by no means is wrong.
It reminds me identically of breaking concrete with a jackhammer, something a very small percentage of people have done for any amount of time. Well, there's two ways to run a jackhammer, either you fight the weight and the 'recoil' and it beats the piss outta you all day... or you 'lock in' with your elbows tucked and your upper body like half flexed, yes it takes more work (energy) but you end up, ironically less tired and far more productive at tearing up concrete. Meaning the technique actually makes the tool perform better. Who knew?
Point being, there is a technique for everything. Let's call it a manual of arms for running bird's head firearms... what Rhett has repeatedly demonstrated, taught, and proven time and again, is that the 'clench' is a method to successfully control any object in space that interfaces with just two hands.
Accurately.
All the minute but critical physical details reminds me of instructing martial arts.
He can obviously translate what he feels in his own technique into useful instructions for teaching it to other people. That is not a trivial skill. He can also read how other people are applying the instructions given and tell them what they need to fix in their own technique.
That guy is an excellent physical instructor.
To anyone doubting this method I encourage you to check out the demonstrated concepts youtube channel and watch rhett's other videos, specifically the ones on his ar15 pistols and 9mm pistols. His house clearing and vehicle work videos are excellent.
ooo would have liked to known about this when doing SAT/BAF and having to move a full-length moss 500 through the hatches on the ship
…. I bet the weaver stance was different, new and awkward at one time as well :-)
Who knows what history will choose for the future?
I've got one if these shotguns for backpack kit while hunting for predator defense. It's small, light, easy to pack, and packs more than enough wallop. The trade off is that you have to practice with it to be proficient. This definitely isn't a newcomers shotgun, or one I'd just toss a buddy who hasn't a good amount of shotgun experience. Cudos to Ian for keeping an open mind and trying new techniques 😁
Probably can't make it to the course but rewatching the videos over and over, I'm willing to try it.
Wondering if the SAS MP5 3 point sling tension training doctrine could be applied for an even easier process
this plus a semi auto shotgun, which should be less snappy, could help a lot.
Check out his youtube channel, he goes over all of this
All hail Sir Ian the Open-minded, Savior of Forgotten Francophone Feu Feu, Debunker of Dumbassery, Breaker of Bird's Beak Boom-boom Balls, and THE Gun Hey Zeus.
Sir Ian and his many contributors are willing to revisit previous conclusions, especially when the earlier assessment and conclusion was as "right" as right can be.
Outstanding job, Sir Ian.
I’m taking Demonstrated Concepts course in August on birds-head grip shotguns. Real excited.
Love the shotgun jujitsu technique of leveraging body mechanics. Without the stock you get so much mobility. The close body chicken wing and strap are very innovative techniques.