Why Damage Over Time DPS Is Deceptive
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
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Was talking too quickly at the beginning, meant to say that 2^2 = 4 and 2^3 = 8
2+2=4 quick math
At this point, this section of the knowledge pool should be called PoE Theory.
_"you know DoT capping is deceptive right?"_
_"ooh.. I don't know much theory. I just do some maps and leave."_
It doesn't matter if you're just following a build but if you're looking to push it further it's useful knowledge to just know that "DoT DPS number can go more up than PoB says"
@@subtractem nonono it was a compliment. I'm all ears trying to follow along. Thanks for the content.
Meanwhile, I'm sitting over here preparing for an Ignite build (of all things) potential league starter in 3.25. Nice outro by the way.
"2 to the 3 is 4"
Sub, have you been listening to Terrance Howard again?
1 times 1 is 2, he's revolutionizing math!
I love the intersection of topics here
Definitely hoping 3.25 brings an "....of Howard" transfigured skill gem that doubles your DPS.
DoT DPS is limited by the tone of hydrogen.
This is why I fell in love with the Viper Strike of the Mamba + Low Tolerance + Sadism build that ZiggyD promo'd last league. It feels like playing a hit based build because the damage comes out so fast, but then the prolif / alchemist mark does huge dot damage that can easily rocket to dot cap without a massive ramp window. Highly recommend trying the Low Tolerance / Sadism playstyle!
Math in the first 30 seconds it’s a PoE video
Love this kind of in depth content during the quiet month
Absolutely loved this video. I want more math, science, and coding explaining other poe mechanics! 😅
I find it funny that I’m a recent graduate in biomedical engineering and this is all quite relative from studies to now PoE.
imagine if the change that for long. double the damage
I would definitely love videos explaining a lot of these mechanics, like leech.
The only way i can really use POB is to compare whether a number is higher or lower than before.
I love this video. What about a video explaining Map modifiers and why some are less scary or more scary. I know it depends on your build but I know when I was learning how to play I had no idea what most of the map modifiers actually meant. But great video man!
Thanks Sub for the intro to computer science for improved POE video. Interestingly this same 32 bit integer limit applies to boss life as well, which is why there is a boss life cap in deep delve
"All models are wrong. Some models are useful"
--George Box
POB is useful.
"That is why real computers use Two's Complement"
Well... one of the reasons. I think the biggest reason is that your adders just work for both positive and negative numbers, whereas sign-magnitude does not have this property. (-1 + 1 would end up being -2)
I believe One's Complement does work with normal adders, except for some edge cases. Still has the problem of negative zero, though.
(Then again, so do floats and nobody cares. But they also have infinities and way too many NaNs...)
2,147,483,647 is also max HP cap of a monster. That's why deep delvers below 5000 depths don't encounter bosses with billions of HP because the HP cap is also the 32-bit signed integer.
For more info: th-cam.com/video/nC_En939Ing/w-d-xo.html - deep delve guide by Conner
So, the DoT/HoT per minute thing is technically required for some kind of cool reasons. In order to keep the client and server in sync, everything is done as some sort of integer calculation, because floating points are inconsistent. And if the damage/healing was per second, there'd be weird situations at low levels where 10% increased damage over time doesn't hit a breakpoint or 1 flat fire damage would inflict an ignite that rounded down to zero damage per second and didn't ignite at all. We can argue back and forth about whether they made the right calls to handle these issues, but it was a good few years before the DoT cap was even an issue so I can see why they went the way they did.
Explain that to me as if I was a 6 years old. 🥴
They said there'd be no math!!!
Thank you, dot are my favorite to play.
@subtractem, great video man, but the binary part is partially correct. 1111 -> -1 and 1000 -> -8
Reason is, the first number defines if number is positive or negative, meaning "0000" would be +0, while 1000 is (-1 * 2^3) = -8
Another small example: 0111 = (0*2^3) + (1*2^2) + (1*2^1) + (1*2^0) = 7. Hope this small explanation clarifies.
Hi there musica,
Sorry for the confusion but I specifically say in the video that I'm using sign-magnitude representation and not 2's complement because I don't want to confuse people that aren't computer scientists. You are explaining 2's complement which is correct for how things actually work but that's not what I was using as an example here. Cheers :)
Here's the wiki post explaining the difference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_number_representations
Great video, thanks for that. The hair looks ridiculous but I'm 50 so take that into account. Much love and respect :)
I agree I actually cut it in immediately after seeing what I looked like in the video!
My computer must be fake 😂. Jk love the video dood, keep it up!!
Don't think I've ever made a build over 5M dps. Wild
Poe is the only game that requires computer knowledge to play
10 year old : mom, i think im ready for college now
70% less damage taken means you are dealing that much less damage correct ? So you are actually doing 30% of your DoT cap, not 70% extra on top of your full cap.
You are dealing the same amount of damage, the monster just takes less. It's two different sides of how it is calculated on the back end.
damn how hard is to get dis shit right in-game...
I'm too dumb for this class. 😅 But seriously, I stopped playing DOT builds because they are too complicated to build around. The fact like you said, you gotta dedicate precious mods for things like adjusting ailment speed.
People love to configure their own buffs in PoB, but rarely the monster ones (outside of just changing the Boss config.).
For me, I try to identify what my ideal effective DPS is, then configure around that (e.g. I'm playing a mapping build and want 'actual' 35m DPS, then I'm going set the Delirous Effect to 80% to ensure I'm still hitting it if I'm planning on running a lot of deli maps; or checking I'm still at 35m even with buffs down (or at least in the ballpark)).
Any DoT build is worth having some good overhead baked into it above and beyond the 35m 'under ideal scenarios' cap.
You need ~65m dps to feel 'half as good' in 80% deli as you would in an ordinary map at DoT cap.
Didn't understand a damn thing, have an 8th grade comprehension of anything. So, I'll let you off the hook this time just tell me how to build builds and we'll get along just fine. Interesting video none the less thanks :)
Don’t know anything about computers or hacker mans, but I found that absolutely fascinating. Thanks for the awesome content
next poe video: c++ for beginners lol
Would have been great to show how the DoT cap matches up against the life bars of uber bosses. I.e. if you’re Uber DoT capped on say an ignite, how long does it take for Uber Exarch to die, how long for Uber Maven to phase?
My biggest gripe with the DoT cap discussion is that it’s brought up in so many contexts where it simply doesn’t matter and still used as an argument against DoT builds vs hit-based builds in those contexts.
So if GGG changes to using unsigned integer, my scorching ray totems will double in DPS!!
I found you because during my first league (Lake of Kalandra) I was suggested to play bane. I'm patiently waiting for you to show me how to make the new blight + contagion hit the dot cap. I've been enjoying it as it's a simple gem swap to true blight to fight bosses.
Thank you for this break down of poison dps. Going to check my pob later lol
Why do you have a dead cat on your head?
Is path of exile CS50? Always has been.
ty for this man, i was always wondering about this after playing EA last league
Yes, please. A video in effective life pool.Thanks so much for this video
Oh man programming concepts
Yes and this is why EA is good. Easy 100 mill DPS for ubers.
Why does he have a pompadour haircut?
Was waiting to cut it until right before I left for LA. It's cut now. ;)
thanks for the good video 🙂
Fck, POE player now also need a Computer Science degree to play the game, great.
Turns out all computer games are based on computer science! Games can be more fun the more you know about how they work!
Bleed exist, i play bleed, the only problem is that dot cap is just a dream
Amazing video man, I always love when you go into the math deeply
Maybe you can fix my Srs Instability ignite build xD
I wish they would change PoB to not automatically DoT cap. It should just be a warning.
A hypothetical 2000000000000 DoT build is much more effective than a if the stars align "DoT cap" one (all else being equal) even if they both supposedly deal the same damage.
It's only when you get into deep delve, etc, that the DoT cap really comes into play. For most other stuff, more damage is better even if "DoT capped" because something is almost certainly making you not hit that cap.
If you know how to get the change made, please do.
I'm not really familiar with poison PoB.
But I know for ignite the "combined total damage" is totally misleading and PoB should, IIRC, use "average damage + total DoT DPS" instead, which you still have to calculate yourself.
Want to get good at PoE? Easy! Just get a CS degree! 🤣
00:24 But nobody asks how is the DoT cap 😞
Thank you. This is very educational lesson.
great video
@Subtractem , Why is there 24 projectiles linked to Soulrend in the Uber build PoB , wouldn't it only be 2 projectiles for the one outgoing and the returning projectile ? Makes a HUGE difference in the dps numbers so curious.
If you hover over the soulrend of the Spiral, it tells you how many projectiles it shoots, base is 5 projectiles + 5 from awakened greater multiple projectile support and 2 from forbidden flesh and flame, all of those return, so you end up at 24. You can also selfcast your soulrend of the Spiral once to see that it shoots many projectiles on just one use, and with CwC the skill gets used multiple times a second.
I believe if you stand right on top of the boss, "inside of him", all 12 projectiles hit and then again when return. But you are correct. In almost any other scenrio you'd get only 2 hits, like you said.
I've always known the opposite of dot cap and mitigation interaction? are you claiming that the dot cap respects damage mitigation?
As far as I understand and what the wiki and pob say is that the cap only applies to actual damage taken, not how much you can do (which tracks based on what Ubers feel like as you scale past the cap).
ah, nvm i see. 120mil confused me
would love to see a caustic arrow of poison guy from you :D with mabye even ssf in mind :D
Haha! Stream is in a couple hours don't worry. Probably just going to farm up a poco gem though to speed things up. Not sure I have the time to upgrade all tej bow gear
@@subtractem ah damn :( also cant watch stream :( im EU and work early morning so gotta get some sleep :P
Love the video, great job 💪🏻
I thought higher poison duration meant you can stack more poison i.e. more damage? Or do you mean you want to hit dot cap in as few poison stacks as possible hence lowering poison duration is ideal?
Lots of bosses will either go immune or drop debuffs, wasting large sections of the damage you've stacked up. Meanwhile, the longer it takes you to ramp, the longer it'll take to kill the boss even if they don't drop debuffs because it takes you so many seconds to hit that cap. So the quicker you can hit cap (as long as you can stay there) the faster your kill will be. Not to mention the reduced overkill damage and shorter time to kill while clearing leading to smoother and safer play.
@@OtterSeaborne8901 I think my question is more like why is increased poison duration implied to mean slower ramp? is that not a separate stat (i.e. poison deal damage faster)?
What he’s saying is while yes, higher duration means you can stack more poisons and increase damage is true, bosses can clear your stacks and your ramping up damage will start from 0 resulting in a much lower effective dps.
So a truly powerful poison bossing build is one that can avoid that by reducing the amount of time to achieve dot cap, this would be with a combination of variables stacks/dmg/duration.
- Reduce amount of time to apply stacks (increase action speed)
- Increase total poison damage (larger ticks).
- Reduce duration, apply same total damage over shorter period of time (larger ticks).
While on paper stacking lots of poisons over a longer period of time may result in a higher number, in reality your dps will be much lower than a build that can apply either 1 big fast poison (mamba) or a number of short poisons.
However there are caveats, you need to consider your play style. Are you bossing (the prime argument for this play style) or you fighting crazy juiced rare mobs. Is your action speed good enough to support faster poisons or will your poisons fall off before you manage to apply your next stack.
Ps. Don’t get me wrong this style is not just for bossing it’s extremely strong also for mapping if you can get the numbers to support it. Just keep in mind the topic here is dot cap, not a general guide on how to apply good dps with poison builds.
Increased duration in a vacuum has no effect on ramp rate, but player power is finite, so duration is negative compared to other poison stats like increased cast/attack speed to stack more poisons per second or increasing the damage of each poison, both of which increase ramp rate.
PoB's dps calculation is the damage the target takes at max poison stacks, which is calculated by multiplying poison duration by how many poisons you apply per second. Adding more duration increases that dps number because it increases your max stacks, but it doesn't get you there any faster and you'll be doing the same damage as before at the same rate until you apply stacks beyond your previous max.
If you were consistently getting to max stacks while dpsing e.g. due to Swift Affliction lowering your poison duration to 1.5s, then increased duration would be a noticeable dps gain. If on the other hand, you were rarely getting to or sustaining max stacks e.g. due to the boss phasing by the time you hit max stacks, increased duration would not make your build feel any differently, despite your PoB dps increasing. This is where a new player could get tricked into thinking duration is better than other stats because it always increases PoB numbers.
Ultimately, poison is a balancing act of mechanics to do the most effective damage and finding the proper mix requires a lot of consideration towards the type of content you're tackling.
@@discrep Thanks a lot! That 3rd paragraph really clears things up. So what subtractem said is fixed on the notion that you alr have dot cap on PoB, hence poison duration is a negative and is quite a bait. Thanks!
I think I need to take a calculus class just to understand the first few minutes.
I started swapping my toxic rain build to your cwc build. it's like half done and already so powerful. u da man I appreciate the build it's so much fun.
edit: I was able to do uber elder so easily and bonus, I got a 100 Div watchers eye literally first time I ever killed him in my life lmao.
the DoT cap is a result of the game calculating all damage over time on a "per minute" basis which is then divided per 60 for displaying purposes to the player (for example in the character panel).
The game uses a 32-bit sized variable to store and "work" with this "per-minute DoT" value. 32-bit means there are 32 "bits" which can either be 1 or 0. The maximum value of such a field is 11111111111111111111111111111111 which is 4,294,967,295 in decimal. However, the game treats this value as a "signed" value. This means the left-most bit is used to indicate if the number is positive or negative, effectively cutting the available "absolute" range in half. This means the value in decimal can now range from -2,147,483,647 to 2,147,483,646.
If we now go ahead and divide the maximum possible (positive) value 2,147,483,646 by 60 (to display the damage "per second" instead of "per minute") we end up at 35,791,394 - the DoT cap. this is now a hard cap so even if you put on more dot damage it wont go higher.. earlier you could go over and this would result in a Null value making the game deal 0 damage.
That is...what the video is about yes.
Good bot posting the video's subtitles.
Nice TL;DW 🤣
With regards to EHP.
I think players really need to understand how layers of defense interact and function.
Especially with things like conversion. The order of operations in damage calculations
How to actually go from basic HP + Suppression + some armor, to endgame tankiness where you’re not getting 1 tapped 3 times per map
Bridging the gap between understanding what you need and HOW to actually get it
One-Shot Defences vs Multi-Hit Defences is a very interesting topic. It's common knowledge that one-shot defence is more important in PoB, but that's because we use PoB for bosses, but now with the introduction of Valdo's and T17 maps, multi-hit defences are also important. It's very hard to find a balance so your build can do all content safely.
@@GE_Photon_Lord Theres literally a setting specifically to turn it (gain on block) off, and if you select any appropriate boss skill instead of leaving it on default its also unlikely to hit infinite