Is “Dune” A Perfect Movie? Neil deGrasse Tyson And Stephen Colbert Agree To Disagree
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มี.ค. 2024
- America’s favorite astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson tests the limits of his friendship with “Dune” superfan Stephen Colbert by pointing out potential scientific plot holes. Stick around for more with Neil and check out his book, “Starry Messenger,” available now in paperback.
#Colbert #NeildeGrasseTyson #StarryMessenger #Books #Dune
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Stephen Colbert brings his signature satire and comedy to THE LATE SHOW with STEPHEN COLBERT, the #1 show in late night, where he talks with an eclectic mix of guests about what is new and relevant in the worlds of politics, entertainment, business, music, technology and more. Featuring bandleader Louis Cato and “THE LATE SHOW band,” the Peabody Award-winning and Emmy Award-nominated show is broadcast from the historic Ed Sullivan Theater. Stephen Colbert took over as host, executive producer and writer of THE LATE SHOW on Sept. 8, 2015. - บันเทิง
Neil's face at the plausible explanation of the ornithopter's propulsion. 🤣😂🤣
If I remember correctly, antigravity propulsion (suspensors) in Dune uses the Holtzman Effect. The effect is most likely the reason why shields, which also use the Holtzman effect, drive sand worms into a killing frenzy. Therefore, to use a ship powered by the Holtzman effect in the desert would “be a death sentence.” That’s why you see suspensor craft used on Caladan and behind the shield wall in Arakeen, but not for sustained travel in the desert. The exception there are the carryall and spotter aircraft, but since the spice harvesters are attracting worms anyways, that isn’t really a concern.
I mean… the wings would never survive
Always timestamp
That's good.@@elijahczysz3057
4:23 this explanation doesn't make sense because we know anti-gravity works in an even smaller scale since they have anti-gravity suits too
On a practical note, I really appreciate the tip about the sound-insulating qualities of sand. Turning my bedroom into a beach could be the solution to blocking out my downstairs neighbors...
Yes, that would work if the floor could hold the weight. But you could feel the vibrations in the sand itself, like tge shai-halud can.
Also you'd ran the danger of fast pooping sand snakes popping up out of nowhere.
if only MythBusters were still making episodes; this be an interesting theory to tackle (especially since nothing would make me more happier than knowing the perfect way of dampening outside noise so i can figure out if i AM hearing sounds in my head or not).
I wanna make acoustic panels filled with sand.
@@imdiyu Good idea. I wonder if stylish sandbags are a thing...
One of my most favorite things in this world is watching two well known and highly respected nerds arguing about sci-fi. Please, do this more, it's awesome!
Problem is it’s a fucking pre-rehearsed skit. They weren’t discussing anything they were doing a routine. Colbert had the props ready for Neil, his writers had his jokes written for him. The show sucks.
@@Eric_In_SFDon't watch in then, bro
@@Eric_In_SFGo watch Fallon then
He spoke at his and my Alma Matar- Hook’em Horns pumping out the brainiacs! 🤘
I agree.
I audibly laughed when Neil mentioned how low his bar is for deciding to appear on something
Wasn't he the science advisor for Sharknado?
I laughed inaudibly like a mime
@@NUBCAKE101 lnol 😂
(Laugh not out loud)
I saw NGT on The Adam Friedland Show, so i can attest to this.
🤣So true. And you know he had to preface it like that to be taken seriously too.😂 He's no dummy.
Hate to break it to ya, Stephen, but NDT is right (by a huge margin). According to Wikipedia: "The concept [of multiverse] first appeared in the modern scientific context in the course of the debate between Boltzmann and Zermelo in 1895."
Oh, you beat me to it. lol
NDT is definitely right.. but it is possible that Moorcock was the first person to use the word "multiverse" in this context. Even now the word isn't defined - Max Tegmark and Brian Greene have proposed 4 different classes of multiverses - none of which are like the MCU's idea.
@@jonasfermefors I'm pretty sure that the correct classification of the multiverse would have to include Loke holding the timelines in his fists. Everyone knows that ;)
@@jonasfermefors Yeah, tends to happen a lot. People discussing a concept and then years later someone giving it a recognizable name.
I was thinking 1910-5, crazy it was even earlier!
Fun fact not all snakes slither. The Gaboon viper is a great example of many. Seriously look it up. It's super weird to see and the snake has the longest fangs of any snake and is super deadly. Seriously, it's so weird but kind of scary too.
It's still a kind of undulating motion, pushing against its scales. That's pretty much what Stephen suggested.
Glad you pointed this out about the Gaboon viper. This gorgeous, uniquely marked viper uses rectilinear motion like a caterpillar. Watching it's calm movements belies it's venomous ability. Fortunately, it's not a very aggressive snake, but it's bite is fatal to humans.
@@temporaladvisor3958 Yeah the most dangerous part of the snake is it being so timid until the split second it isn't. It's probably the most bipolar of all snakes. I'm fine you're cool, now you're envenomated and about to die, then right back to everything is fine. They are nuts. At least with a mamba you know for sure how it's going to act.
Australia has a desert dwelling snake that kinda dances side-ways over the surface of the sands.
A side-winder (?)
@@TheKrispyfort America has that too but not all species of snakes worldwide slither. Some prefer locomotion in a straight line using their stomach muscles.
The sandworms aren't chasing the sound, they are go after the vibrations. The thumpers are rhythmic, because it essentially mimics someone walking, but as if someone were stomping their feet instead. --and sand does make noise if the sand particles are very different sizes. That's how there are singing sand dunes. The frequency of the sound is found by f=sqrt[(g*sin(angle of the slope))/d], where g is the gravitational constant and d is the diameter of the particles.
Oh. That's interesting! But what slope am I measuring the angle of?
Sound and vibration are the same thing.
@@uddaloknag1751 The slope of the dune
@@AWSVids Sound is a wave that moves through a medium.
@@Taricus Which is exactly what vibration is. Are you unaware of the fact that sound is vibration? Why are you even arguing against this? Try looking at the defintion of sound: "In physics, *sound is a vibration* that propagates as an acoustic wave through a transmission medium such as a gas, liquid or solid."
Nice to hear that shout out to Michael Moorcock. 84 years old and still writing with great creativity. It would be great to see a movie on Elric and his sword, Stormbringer, the stealer of souls. 😎
My People 😁
Neil obviously didn't read the book. Alot of his issues are answered there.
Hugh Everett (*Physicist) in 1957 presented the theory of "The Multiverse". Not far ahead, but definitely before 1960.
William James, philosopher did it in 1895
And the idea of alternate reality has been around as long as humans have been trying to make sense of reality.
The idea of infinite worlds was first suggested by the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Anaximander in the sixth century BCE
That's when the theory was properly established. But the notion of a multiverse has been present amongst astronomers and philosophers. And in 1952, in Dublin, Erwin Schrödinger gave a lecture explores the plausibility of the multiverse using quantum physics.
Yea might wanna google that.
I only read the novels once, but don't worms have a corkscrew like system inside their bodies that produces tremendous heat propelling them through the sand similar to a torpedo? It's expelled out the back of the worm creating spice.
Also, arrakis is filled with caverns and the thumpers force energy into the top of the caverns making a drum like sound. It's so prevalent and shallow at some points they have "drum sand" that can make noise even through human footsteps.
Hello, I haven't read the novels recently, but I don't recall a detailed explanation of their movement. :)
I read them about 10yrs ago and I don't remember that
I haven't the read the books at all, but you convinced me xD
yes!, these are points explained by Frank Herbert in the books. I think it could also be pointed out that these stories were written in the 19twenties.
I’ve read all the books multiple times, I don’t remember anything resembling what you’re remembering
the reason they use the grapple hooks, is to raise the scales to irritate the worm thus keeping them above the sand and in a straight line or turning by pulling hared on one side or the other.
Exactly.
Worms and snakes can both use rectilinear motion. NDT is wrong.
While sounds in air don't travel well in sand, vibrations (such as thumping on sand) can travel through sand. NDT is wrong.
NDT is wrong a lot, though.
@@Dudemon-1 Sounds in AIR do not travel through sand at all. They travel through air. That's why the sounds is IN THE AIR.
@@ThereIsNoOtherHandleLikeMine What about vibrations? You might feel it, but not hear it...🤓
@@Artjedi44 Sound is vibrations. Did you have a point?
“Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.” ― Mark Twain
I believe that is on a plaque in Congress if not mistaken, and all politicians are to bow beneath it before entering.
No, you're wrong. We have Boobert and MTG.
Nah, they make up facts and distort them
The GOP mantra
I guess that was the main attraction of the tourist trip on Jan 6. lol.
If our 'leaders' paid MORE attention to Twain we all would be better off.
What's so funny is when I read Dune in my 20s, and would imagine the worms, which are supposed to be all scary as hell apparently, all I could see in my head were the worms from the animated portion of the 1988 Classic Beetlejuice.
Me... I think of the ALASKAN BULL WORM! from SpongeBob.
Me too but I was a mother of 6 hiding in my bathroom reading book & smoking a blunt☮️ don’t judge. Six kids. They’re all adults & still don’t know ✌️
So... terrifying then?
Those things were scary AF, tho, especially watching it as a kid
Yea, those were likely inspired by the sand worms from Dune. The movie Tremors also had creatures that were likely inspired by the sand worms from Dune.
here's just a couple details missing here: 1 - sandworms are blind and orient themselves by their feeling of vibration. It doesn't matter if sands make sound. It still vibrates. 2 - there's different kinds of arenous terrain in Arrakis. You know in Dune 1 when at some point Paul and Lady Jessica run across the desert and it's night and a worm is closing by? That's "drum sand", it makes a drum sound if you don't do the Fremen walk.
Not to mention this was all inside Herbert's head and doesn't need to make sense from a scientific point of view anyway lol it's not a science textbook it's a novel.
Stephen did a shout out to Michael Moorcock, father of steampunk?! Another reason to adore him. Love Neil too!
That made me so happy, although he only coined the word half a century after the theory came about.
Fun facts: the many worlds hypothesis was first suggested in 1957 by Hugh Everett III, whose son is the musician behind the Eels. The scientific community was unreceptive, so he left to work for military contractors. So NGT is technically correct there as far as a scientist first suggesting a multiverse as a way to explain quantum physics. However, Jorge Luis Borges published Garden of Forking Paths in 1941. This and other works of his definitely describe the idea.
@@robesdebah4811There is in fact some evidence to suggest that a 6th centry BCE Greek philospher called Aximander considered such a possibility; but what remains of his writings make it unclear as to whether or not he believed that many worlds did exist, and if so, whether or not they ran parallel to each other or in succession. More recently, an 1895 debate between Boltzmann and Zermelo certainly concerned the concept, but did not name it.
Moorcock who wrote Elric which was the original white wolf, which the Witcher was ripped off as by Sapkowski after proofreading books in Poland.
@@TheSuspira666 I have gotten into so many arguments with Witcher fans who refuse to acknowledge its obvious Elric "homage."
Wow. You actually made NDT shut up after Stephen-splaining why 'thopters have wings.
That's quite the achievement!
but mini suspensors that a size of a ball are a thing in dune. But I doubt you can substitute suspensors for ornithopter when flying on open desert. I mean suspensor is done by Holtzman effect, same technology that the shields use. And shield drives worms into frenzy.
NDT also needs to shut up on the worm locomotion problem. You're an awesome advocate for science NDT, but you don't know sh!t about biology. Annelids move by linear peristalsis (sequential contraction along their length), not by slithering (side to side pushing) like snakes do. Get YOUR facts straight, NDT.
he calls it a 'perfect movie' but if the Fremen were real he would cower in terror in a corner and refuse to tell any jokes about how they were being colonized and wiped out by the Harkonen, would say "gosh it's soooo complicated, and there's very fine people on both sides, anyway, *whoopie cushion*" pathetic
Meanwhile, harkonen people flying to the to mountain peaks using anti gravity suits
Yeah, but that shows me something positive about both men.
One can make a case for something ludicrous and make it plausible even as an entertainer.
The other, as a scientist, can actively change his mind, thoughts, or perspectives on an issue the moment he is presented with information or insights he had never considered before.
This shows the intelligence of such men. Which, I suppose, is why they're both at the top of their game. ❤
This is a funny debate. In any case, Dune Part 2 was freaking amazing!!!
I hope so...Dune bored me, even the original Dune wasn''t great but looked stunning
This made my unwavering reverence towards NDT waver. During the 70s Frank Herbert attracted a following like George R. R. Martin does today. I saw him speak twice at my university and there wasn’t an auditorium large enough to contain the demand. Much of his popularity among nerds was the scientific accuracy in his details and this was due to Herbert seeking out the leading scientist in the fields he was writing about (biology, ecology, political science…) and offering to ghost write their research papers. So unless NDT has been doing cutting edge research into the propulsion of the Saharan earth worm, I’m siding with Frank Herbert.
I always love it when these two get together to chat! Scientist vs geek is always an interesting discussion on topics like this! 😊
Come on NDT... sound is transferred because it is DRUM SAND
Neil didn't do his "research".
In the movies the worms come even when it isn't drum sand.
Take a drum, fill it with sand, try to play
Then what’s the point of sand walking EVERYWHERE?
Walk without rhythm, and you won't attract the worm.
Kudos to Frank Herbert who knew about the sand-sound-muffling thing, hence making him create the concept of "drum-sands".
This dude really does go through the universe sucking the joy out of everything.
Regarding Neil's comments about the worms. Snakes move in zigzags but worms contract and extend lengthwise. The dune worms also vibrate the sand around them so it somewhat liquefies and it's easier to move through.
That's how they move: vibrations and small contractions and extensions.
Yeah, NDT is a tool.
Mr. Tyson: I routinely gather large nightcrawlers for fishing, on rainy nights, and I can verify that they do absolutely stretch out straight, and crawl without bending, as snakes, for instance, do. Their straight line presentation helps them stand out in the beam of my flashlight. Often, when I find a particularly large worm, I say, "Shai Hulud!" as I scoop it into my worm container. Thanks for all you do.
Micheal Moorcock, Elric, Corum, Cornelius, those are some books that need to be rediscovered and turned into movies.
Yesss
Yes!!!
I'm re-enjoying "The Books of Corum" via audiobook. If you're looking for media, start there, it's a fresh way to absorb Moorcock's fiction beyond the paper bound route. And the voice actor performed very nicely to boot. ;)
I'm sorry to contradict an astrophysicist, but there is sand that transmits sound. Sand of the right material and of a uniform size can squeak (at beaches in Australia especially) or hum (in 40 locations around the world).
NDT needs to get a herpetologist onto his show. Snakes absolutely can move in a straight line. It's called "rectilinear locomotion." In particularly, VERY LARGE snakes can move this way. So if you want to compare a SANDWORM to a SNAKE, you gotta take into consideration the biggest snakes we have here on Earth. This could be a good Star Talk subject, since it wasn't until 2018 before scientists figured out precisely how snakes do it.
To be fair, he said "have you ever seen a snake chase you in a straight line?" Rectilinear motion is really slow. It's not a chase method, it's maybe a sneaking technique.
also sand dunes can actually make low frequency rumbling sound... so... yeah i guess it is possible to attract worm by sounds of sand
th-cam.com/video/WWrb1iyCLlI/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=PBSTerra
I mean, the Shai-Hulud don't hunt via sound. They hunt by detecting vibration from miles away. The rhythmic nature of a vibration could be different then windblown sand or falling rocks indicating an intelligence of some level, and therefore food.
NDT bringing up Ophiucus is dope man, I love it!
I like to think that the reason why we have 12 signs instead of 13 is due to something like what happened in the Chinese Zodiac--one of the other signs (i.e. mouse in CZ) played a prank/pissed off Ophiucus (cat) which led to Ophi being kicked out of the pantheon.
The Ophiuchus debacle was funny to watch. A bunch of people who will defensively say horoscopes are "just for fun, jeez" had their panties all up in a twist at the mere suggestion they might have actually been [adjacent sign] instead of [sign]. Astrology people are crazy.
You could even hear some gasps from the audience during that remark, horrified to think they might be LIBRAS. Like I'm sorry about that tattoo on your wrist, but I thought it was "just for fun, jeez".
I was Scorpio until 1 minute ago. My whole life is about to change.
Cusp gives me the right to pick between 2 horoscopes.
Still, tired of that "game" as a teen.
He's depicted as a dude holding a giant snake. Beat that, Aquarius.
It's not the thumping sound that calls the worms. Any country-raised fisherman will tell you that you get worms to crawl out of the ground through creating vibration. Frank Herbert likely knew this
Yeah, NDT is wrong a lot.
You miss the point entirely lol, what exactly do you think sound is? Its literally vibration. The reason he is complaining is because sound doesnt travel that far through sand (or vibrations) in the movie it is depicted that they come from miles away. Now i understand that what they use in the movie is called drum sand and thats different but his point still stands.
@@Shotgunz999 -- The difference is vibrations through air (sound) vs vibrations through the sand grains, transmitted via the grain-grain contact points. A layer of sand will do well to insulate sound in air from passing through, but vibrations from, say, earthquakes, will transmit.
@@Shotgunz999 vibrations in air is sound, vibrations in sand is not. He is right
I know of NDT, I’ve never actually watched anything he’s in (only little clips like this). I’m sure he’s an incredibly smart person, but for the first time here he sound ridiculous.
This conversation would be completely normal for any two SF geeks getting together and cheerfully geeking out over their favorite subjects. The astrology talk was also completely on point. Us nerds love these discussions more than most people love the Olympics.
ETA: the main difference is that if the discussion is not in front of a camera, both will have their phones in hand to google all of that. And the person being proven wrong will be delighted at having learned something new.
So true! Sooo true!
Pretty accurate as a whole, but your edited part is exactly how my friends' conversations go. I'm sure that it's not the way most conversations are, especially here on the internet, but I'm very happy to see people who still want to learn and not just "win" an argument
As a nerd, yes.
Don't google, DuckDuckGo. Just sayin.
Idunno, I get tired of the gatekeeping and the knowitall attitude. I’m a proud nerd, but our people could do better.
It's interesting that Neil's objections to Dune are related physical systems such as sandworms and ornithopters, without addressing problems related to the spice, e.g. how it allows some people to see the future (or at least possible futures).
That's a biochemistry question, not a physics question! :D
It's called suspension of disbelief. A skill that NDT and many young men on the Internet lack.
Spice is downright magic. The worm and the ornithopters are something trying to blend in into our understanding of physics, hence it can be criticized for fun.
@@thatjeff7550So is sandworm anatomy but that didn't stop him.
both did not adress the most glaring problem with the Thopters: Their wings would fly off. Like, instantly. The combination of required wing load and beating frequency would likely shatter any material in seconds. They looked absolutely awesome, though. And plausible, although they are really not ;-)
neil, the sound engineers ACTUALLY WENT OUT IN THE DESERT AND THUMPED SAND.
You just can't take this man seriously
First time I have heard Michael Moorcock on US TV. I always wondered if the multi-verse was his invention, or if he was ahead of other sci-fi writers.
P.S. His 'End of Time' series are still my favorite sci-fi novels.
Oh my gosh, I can finally call out Neil deGrasse Tyson!!! The thumper isn't hitting the sand. It is NOT using the sand to make the sound. The thumper is "knocking" within itself in its mechanism. And then that sound is attracting the worms.
I’m with Stephen. Neil is so wrong in every way.
Such a fun and entertaining interview 👏 ❤
Actually the book is more accurate than the movie. The book explains that for the thumper you need drumsand which is hardened sand that echoes the thumper’s vibrations. For the movements, the worm actually does move around like a snake, the hooks are to open up the ducts of the worm so that it is unable to go into the sand. Since it remains above the sand, the rider can be on top. In fact, in the book it is mentioned that if hooks are not placed correctly, the worm can roll over and kill the rider to save itself.
Villeneuve likes to brag that he's so faithful to the book, but he doesn't understand squat about it. And NDT needs to read the damn book, rather than rely on a director who doesn't understand the source material.
Is that why Paul knocks around on the sand before he places his thumper in the worm riding scene? I noticed they showed the ducts opening, as you mentioned, too.
@@Newt0rz yes. He was looking for drumsand so that the thumper’s sound and vibrations and echo.. the worm ducts are essential for the worm. Water kills the worm and hence, if the freeman achieve their dream of a water flowing utopia, they will lose the precious worms. Its a dichotomy. the book shows a lot of time passes for Paul to learn the Freeman ways. The first book where the 2nd movie culminates is supposed to be years ahead of Paul’s father dying. Paul’s son was supposed to die in the battle while his sister was supposed to kill the Baron. It had a significance as the further story has a connection between Baron and Paul’s sister.
You should say the book elaborates more than the movie because everything you explained about the book in your comment is in the movies. In the first film, towards the end when Paul and Jessica are crossing the desert, Paul steps on drumsand and acknowledges it. He goes "it's drumsand" before the worm starts to attack them. In the sequel film when Paul is struggling to gain his footing on the worm, he hooks his blades into the skin flap of the worm and pulls it up, exposing the ducts which causes the worm to stop rolling because before he did that, the worm was beginning to turn and Paul was starting to dangle off the side of it so yeah. Also before Paul's first ride, he looks for drumsand so he can place the thumper.
"America's favorite astrophysicist" is Carl Sagan.
@VideoNozoki I thought that was Oppenheimer 🌝
Love hearing the shoutout to Michael Moorcock's Multiverse!
Dune and Dune Messiah were great sci-fi books back in the mid-70's, and they were both very well written and absorbing. I remember impatiently waiting for the third book, which I found terribly boring halfway through. In fact, that was the first time I did not compulsively finish a book that I had started! Can't weigh in on the movie, though, as I haven't seen it.
Yes, thanks! Those books blew my mind in high school and college.
Children of Dune is still kind of ok, but then it gets weird. God Emperor of Dune is a slow burn, but Heretics of Dune, that´s when I had to take a break.
Honestly, you gave up on Children right before it really takes off, and God Emperor is an incredible philosophical piece if nothing else
@@McHobotheBobo God Emperor is a slow examination of the nature of power and leadership
@@McHobotheBobo what books do you think they should cover of next? Also I keep hearing that that the last few books of the franchise were either bad or not, film worthy. Do you know anything about that?
NDT has made an entire career out of being the “ummmm Ackchually” guy.
And trading on his association with Carl Sagan. Sagan at his worst is better than NDT at his best.
“There are big machines that fly, so why would the ornathopters need wings?”
That’s like saying “we already have hot air balloons, why don’t they just put hot air in helicopters? Then you wouldn’t need propellers” lol
4:22 Also, because the "floaty effect" that makes other things fly is based on the 'Holtzman Effect' in the Dune universe, which is the same effect used to make Shields. And, as mentioned in the movie, using the Holtzman Effect in the open desert drives the Worms into a frenzy. Jeez, NDT, do some research...
Also, what Stephen was talking about is called Rectilinear locomotion, and it's a real thing with some snakes!
Hmm could that be why the harkannans in the beginning of part two refused to turn on their shields? I was wondering why.
Stephen and Neil degrasse Tyson debating the physics of sandwurms is everything I didn’t know I needed. This is hilarious to me 😂
Funny thing about Neil saying you can't feel vibrations through sand and somebody (Frank Herbert) not doing the research on this:
Just watched Planet Earth II episode 4 - Deserts and in it there's the golden mole which swims through the sand AND is completely blind as relies on its perfect hearing to hear vibrations in the sand that termites or locusts make to come up from underneath the sand and eat them.
Looks like Neil is the one not doing his research
Sorry to contradict Neil, but snakes are not limited to the serpentine locomotion he described. Of the (at least) five methods of locomotion available to snakes, the relevant one to this conversation is called rectilinear locomotion. It's a surprisingly smooth form of forward movement in a straight line, accomplished using specialized muscles to manipulate their belly scales in contact with the ground. Without this ability, they wouldn't be able to do typical snaky things like slithering into narrow burrows.
In my past 40 years as a geophysicist I can honestly state that seismic waves (sound) propagates through sand just fine.
In a universe where something like the spice exists, interstellar travel exists, the Voice exists and people can see the future, NDT is dissing on how sandworms move 😂😂
Good points by Neil. But the Heighliners though has propulsion are essentially massive carriers. The space folding of the holzman engines is how they move vast distances
Two notes on sandworns.
First, Stephen is right, just as our little worms, the sandworms move by some kind of reverse peristalsis, moving the outer edge of their circular bodies in a motion to move.
Second, the thumper isn't attracting sandworms with sound, it's the vibration on the sand, similar to how desert snakes and spiders find their prey.
And third, worms aren't snakes. There's a diagram of the anatomy of a sandworm in the Dune Encyclopedia, and it somewhat resembles a gigantic earthworm with teeth and a very aggressive attitude.
Multiverse from Hugh Everett's 1957 thesis done under John Wheeler
I'm so loving how the comments section is out-nerding out NDT and Stephen 💜🪐☄️🕳️🔭🔥
NDT has clearly never been in sand dunes and heard them "sing" from the friction of moving particles in the wind or when you slide down a steep slope...we used to make the dunes resonate for fun as kids...And the compact sand, you can definitely thump it and the sound travels far...its spot on. Frank Herbert is definitely basing this on actual experiences in sanddunes...ecologically I have always found dune impressive. Neil should stick to the stars. His recent delvings into biology and ecology have been off target.
FH got the idea for Dune from his research on the creeping sand dunes in Oregon (I think it was Oregon; might have been Washington), and how planting certain types of grasses might slow down the desertification in that area. So yeah, he definitely did his research. He went from intending to write an article to writing a massive SF masterwork.
I thought the worm could also pick up on the vibrations of the thumper. The shifts in sand can be picked up on through frequency... No?
Yay! Steely Dan’s “Peg” bringing him out! Love it and love NDT 😊👏🏼👍🏽♥️
4:55 "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." Fun fact: That is actually one of the core rule for Star Trek scripts laid out by Roddenberry in the TOS and TNG writers bibles: "Star Trek is not fantasy: We extrapolate our science fiction from real world scientific concepts and theories."
It has telepaths and telekinetics, and characters such as the Q who can essentially poof things into existence, but the idea is that there is some scientific explanation for all of it.
@@wizardsuth The question is: What is the exception and what is the rule. The Roddenberry guidelines where not holy and could be broken, but you needed to have a reason for it. Q for example is a character which allows to question anything in the universe, a "joker character". But since he was a character, these broken rules needed to be articulated and explained through his dialogue and did not happen "just because". The Roddenberry guidelines were like the base formation of a team: Every member can break the formation (a defender can join an offensive attack) but then has to go back. This was also the case with these guidelines from the Star Trek writers bibles.
@@TheTuubster Q is basically Trickster. You get into an exasperating situation, there's a problem to solve, and you come out of it with a life lesson you didn't have before.
And the thing about SF kinds of science is that it has to be both plausible and consistent. That's why travel to the edge of the Milky Way is so ridiculous when comparing TOS and Voyager. It took Kirk a few hours to travel the distance that Voyager expected to take 70 years to travel, assuming they didn't find any short cuts.
Sound might be insulated, or is it the rhythmic vibration from the thump.
The Worms go straight when the grappling hooks tear/lift a scale and the worm keeps that open wound above sand.
Astrologically you get both, the 12 house zodiac clock and the 13 house one. Both are useful for introspection and numerical superstition accounting for cosmic inflation and population growth
love that they played Steely Dan's song "Peg" to introduce him!!!! i think it came out in 78'
The outtake where NDT explains the zodiac signs is really the only part of the movie I'd want to see!
what he described is vedic astrology, only Western is behind
Neil deGrasse Tyson on Toy Story: "Thats not how Toys would walk and talk"
Every science nerd does that with their favorite movies and shows. It's one way for us to actually get even more enjoyment out of it. Compare it to people knowing all the football stats. That would bore me to tears, but greatly enhances the experience for them.
Science nerds generally love finding plot or continuity errors and discussing them. For one thing, getting to the bottom of why something doesn't work can help you figure out how it could be made to work. It's like a gearhead tinkering with a perfectly ok car to turn it into something better.
Another great pastime we have is noticing the flaw, but then reason out an in universe way for why it wasn't a flaw but actually just the way it would actually work that way. It's a way to practice your reasoning skills without having to worry about any restrictions or real life consequences.
@@Jacqueline_Thijsen it’s not that deep, the movie is a movie, not a documentary. Sci-fi is science fiction for a reason. It doesn’t say nonfiction. Saying a movie has scientific flaws when it was fiction to begin with is kind of dumb
@@stimswwolf7867 It's kinda dumb the same way memorizing football stats is kinda dumb. It's something people enjoy doing. For fun.
@@stimswwolf7867 No, it's not dumb. If something is marketed as science fiction, it needs to have some degree of plausible science in it, either currently known science or plausibly extrapolated from currently known science.
@@Shan_Dalamani well, Dune has nailed just that. They converted the science of how vibrations in sand works
I love it when we get glimpses of how smart Colbert is
That "deal with it" with the hand gesture from Better Off Ted
LOL
Sound traveling in sand depends on the alignment of the grains and how the contact each other. There are a few famous spots around the world where there are 'singing' sand dunes that ring harmonically, and also produce 'roars' and 'booms'. The following parameters need to be met for this to be possible (from Wikipedia): certain conditions have to come together to create singing sand:
The sand grains have to be round and between 0.1 and 0.5 mm in diameter.
The sand has to contain silica.
The sand needs to be at a certain humidity.
And the the most common frequency emitted seems to be close to 450 Hz.
Specific locations globally have "singing" sand dunes that produce various sounds like harmonics, roars, and booms. These sounds occur under specific conditions that influence how the sand grains vibrate and interact with each other.
Near Tobermory (Ontario Canada), there is a beach called "singing sands"; but when they put in the parking lot, they paved the singing part.
The sad thing is 50 years ago( golden age of science) people would disagree because they didn’t understand the science. Now they disagree because they choose to not care.
ja, but isnt that sound they are generating and that we are hearing carried via air? NDTs argument is, that a creature living INSIDE the sand wouldnt generally be able to hear sound directed AT sand somewhere else, because the sand itself doesnt carry the sound that far.
It’s space sand anyway
Thank you for the Michael Moorcock name drop. My favorite fantasy author. Elric is great, Corum is phenomenal.
same
Per the question of the multiverse "The concept first appeared in the modern scientific context in the course of the debate between Boltzmann and Zermelo in 1895."
Glad that Neil guested in the show again. It's always great to watch him banter with Stephen or is it the other way around haha.
Here I am again trying to watch the interview in sequence, since whoever’s in charge of posting these can’t add a segment number or at least post them in the correct order. Why?
That’s a first world problem if I’ve ever heard one
Laziness? Carelessness? It's annoying not to have the rest of it.
@@katica04 Im sorry it didnt occur to me to that children are starving while Im trying to watch a talk show interview at three in the morning. WTF
@@kobiee2x137 why do you assume I was being mean?! My goodness people are terrible online, thinking the worst. Go ahead, reply with another response of how terrible I am, I’m waiting
My current first world problem is being annoyed by a random stranger on the internet
LOVE that tie Neil, I want one
5:56 😄Tyson havin' a _Saturday Night Fever_ moment? I guess that's groovy. 😄
The term multiverse was coined by American philosopher William James in 1895 to refer to the confusing moral meaning of natural phenomena and not to other possible universes.
The concept as we know it first appeared in the modern scientific context in the course of the debate between Boltzmann and Zermelo in 1895. But goes back to the ancient Greeks.
I thought he was talking about the movie Tremors w/ Kevin Bacon 🤣
Perfect time to rewatch the key and peele sketch
Not a biologist, Neil missed the hydraulic propulsion of segmented annelids.
(Earthworms.)
Each segment is a hydraulic jack. But, yeah, there should be rippling pulsations of wormquakes as each segment alternates between short & wide, long & thin.
I have a problem, though, with the worms' speed of travel through the high friction fluid of sand.
Lookit me, angling for Chuck Nice's sidekick gig. Not really, I love to see those guys work together!
Loved the Ophiuchus part. I've known about this for years and it's so cool to hear NDT mention it. According to the Zodiac, I'm a Sagittarius, but when I was born the sun was actually in Ophiuchus.
Worms and snakes move differently.
The Dune sand worms (DSW), possibly a variety with similar body plan and general configuration of terran Annelida, could very well go straight as an Terran earth worm does.
And, the riding of the DSWs is dependent upon forcing the surface plates of ringed segments to part, exposing the spiracles and soft connective tissues which are very tender, and the DSWs do not want sand in their spiracles and between their segment plates because that chaffs.
However, the DSW would have learnt by now that the little pests remove themselves eventually. They are spicy after all.
Of course, snakes are sauropsids, so before that amniota, before that tetrapoda, and on and on. They're tetrapods, so an entirely different taxonomy, snakes like all tetrapods derived from Sarcopterygy (lobed fin fish). Hell, 😂 they're vertebrates.
Worms are that invertebrate shit I don't study enough.
Yeah but the sand worms are definitely more like snakes than worms. No way they could support their mass without a skeleton structure, like a snake. Unlike a worm.
I forgot to mention that annelids that live in geolith also have protrusions that act like oars, allowing them to 'swim' in a straight line through the substrate.
They don’t hear the thumper they feel the vibrations
There are no vibrations in sand, or at least very bad ones.
Oh my sweet summer child, this world is too complex for you
Sorry, Neal, but when the construction site over the road was doing vibrocompaction I could feel it 400 yards or so away. We were on sand strata about 2 miles deep. Can’t recall if it was gravels or bedrock below that.
THERE IS LITERAL VIDEO OF THE SOUND TEAM RECORDING THE THUMPS IN SAND FOR THE FILM
I do miss Carl Sagan...
indeed. makes NDT look like a toddler
This poor man's Sagan is unbearable
I'm telling you, check out this guy I've been following for a while called RL Poole on the channel @thehauntedsky. He destroys NDT and it is hilarious. I want to hear them debate physics, and see this egotistical gasbag get humbled. Can't stand this guy, and RL Poole tears through him like a woodchipper. Truly epic stuff if you hate Neil like I do.
@@erickgomez7775as is your comment
@@erickgomez7775your comment is unbearable
Are they talking about Tremors?
I love watching these 2. They’re both funny and smart and clearly have fun together.
Sweet! Bringin back old skool Colbert Report with "I accept your apology."
Drum sand was discussed in the first movie. Its a part of the world
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but at last check vibrations still go through sand right? Example being an Earthquake happens you'd still feel it even on the beach or in a desert? While it may be called a 'Thumper' could that not be just due to the sound it makes that we hear from the machinery working which is creating the same kind of waves that happen when an earthquake happens in which then the sand worm picks up on that and heads for the source which isn't necessarily sound? I mean, in this case with the odd step it may mimic things the sand worm doesn't consider a 'threat', where as the vibrations of the thumper replicate similar ones to the spice harvesters and so attack it to defend the territory, having learned that those and the ones humans make when walking normally are a threat to be dealt with, but not yet figured out thumpers.
I'm a geologist with a background in application of geophysics. Sand does attenuate seismic/acoustic waves to some degree, but it doesn't completely stop the waves in their tracks. For example, seismic resolution is heavily affected in deserts - specifically deserts covered in sand dunes. However, the waves are actually echoed within the sand dunes and re-emitted over time. This is why it's an issue in seismic surveys. In the case of Dune, we're not worried about the signals returning. So, if the worms are found within giant sand dunes, the seismic waves would likely still reach them.
@@tychojhin4820-- As a geologist with similar background, I thank you for posting this. I concur.
NDT spouts off incorrectly A LOT.
“Someone didn’t do the research” yea, it was you Neil
Acoustics are different from VIBRATIONS. The ground, sand, will still propagate vibrations. In fact, it is better through a more solid medium then the "looser" molecularly dense air.
AS for the worms propulsion,...
yeah, worm farts. Smell the spice!
Physicist and educator, Sean Carroll has advised on several big sci-fi films and he says... It's not his job to tell the film makers that they can't do that but to figure out a plausible way to make it work.
NDT teaching people to engage with art in all the wrong ways
Vibrations can travel through sand if the vibration is high enough. So theoreticlally the "thumper" in Dune could work. Have to side with Stephen on this.
Yeah, and in behind the scenes footage from the first movie the sound designers show how they buried microphones at different distances in the desert to record sound effects. For the thumper I believe they used a rubber mallet.
The video’s on youtube somewhere.
compacted sand can be a good resonator. Singing Dunes are a real thing.
These two together are my favorite.
nice to hear De La Soul - Eye Know after so many years for the intro for a fav NDT
What struck me in both movies was why does anyone go outside during the day? Surely the night would be more bearable.
Early morning and evening are bearable. At high noon the temperature becomes extremely hazardous.
Because it’s almost impossible to get a good film of the worm at night
BUT IT'S DRUM SAND
To respond to Neil about the flying vehicles:
1. Levitating anti gravity vehicles and people move slowly and precariously because they are balancing on the gravitational field the same way a magnet floats on a magnetic field. They can only speed up fast way from physical objects like in space.
2. For fast powered flight then they need proper aerodynamic flying vehicles, with wings or propellers to produce lift, and control surfaces.
I just love the fact that Stephen gets to use the word "peristaltic". I think that's a first for late night TV!
From what I can find looking on sites like researchgate, sand only does a good job blocking sound at higher frequencies. This means that even if humans can't hear the thumps, the sand worms could feel them.
3:18 Pure gold about the "straight" snake
Worms are not snakes. They move like an accordian through soil. NDT was wrong on this.
Check out the movement of the Gaboon viper. They move like caterpillars.
Actually...Check out caterpillars. 🤣
Annelids can go straight in soils, thanks to accordion motion mentioned above coupled with a plethora of small protrusions that act like oars.
Neil needs to admit he doesn't know much about biology.
Well, Neil does have a point but those thumpers were extra loud.
Holy crap he just made a Michael moorcock reference I'm assuming he's talking about the champion eternal series what's the dynamic of a champion in every universe the first multiverse