han and horner is pretty underrated, the mines are so strong to weaken enemy waves so ur ally dont die, ive been clearing this without horner units without problems.
I agree that Tychus is S material here as he is most mutations, but you do have to play really well, it's not that hard to slip up and just loose the game because you don't actualy have many back up plans if your strongest outlaws die.. I think that all of the strong "I def" commanders (Karax, Swan, Mengsk) are far easier to play here than Tychus. They win pretty reliably and while their loose condition can be mended by making like 1 or a few more static buildings next time so that the waves don't crash through. With Tychus you always have plenty of oportunity to just misclick in a major fight and just loose the game there :D
Tychus is still fairly easy to play and is able to go out to kill a thrasher, TP back to clear a wave on his side and TP again if needed ; all that in the same minute. Zeratul and Stetmann may very well be able to do everything as well. Meanwhile, Karax is 90% dependant on his ally to prevent thrashers from destroying the temple. Swann is just a bit less needy and his flaming turrets are probably the most OP for this mutation. Mengsk is far less dependant for killing thrashers, but his static defense might not be as good.
@@pulp0negr0 I agree with the logic if you play really relaxed or the I def mode only, however, if you try really hard to macro and micro properly with Karax and Swan, as much as you have to micro with Tychus and your ally holds his half you can macro up to air units and kill trashers the key is not to engage the waves let them crash into your static and fly in when the trashers are undefended. Mengsk is like very S here I think. He just defs with bunkers+turrets and esos+topbars kill the trashers np. With a Karax ally you can hold your side with 4-5 bunkers (you adjust the troopers upgrades to the comp) and like 6-8 turrets. If there isn't a Karax you make 1 more bunker, 2 more turrets and have like 2-3 workers repair If you loose a structure just replace it after the fight.. Ofc you can always overdefend too, doesn't hurt much, its just that you begin to run out of army suply so you have to unload the surpluss bunkers to load the esos.. Also if maxed (that was my most common issue) just walk down a bunker suply worth of troopers down a lane, they die realy fast and you have space to drop that bunker on the trasher again. :D
Im so average at this game when someone scores someone lower than the other person i already agree with that one usually lol. Abathur is a b for most players. A lot of people that watch this are better than average players and you three are all definitely better than regular people. So definitely something to keep in mind for the audience. I think figuring out who the audience is for the rankings will help navigate different opinions. So leaning towards the lower score if regular people are the audience and leaning towards the higher score if its the more advanced players. Also those advanced players will occasionally also have different opinions based on their style so I think they are more the exception to the rule than the standard. I know a few people who mastered han and horner. That being said when we get a ss like last week i can even solo while snacking lol
I only won this map with a hard carry from Dehaka, as Raynor I got all my production wiped at like 22 minutes. I tried to just defend with bunkers and tanks but couldn’t keep up as it became APM intensive. Defending 3 sides rather than just one ramp.
@@kingpet Also going full sky fleet means the broodlings and civilians are free to march on the base and temple. You do need some base defense to start. Check twotuu soloing this as p0 with full temple
Karax p1 + Mengsk p3 combo is prety imba here. Just mass static with both and kill the trashers with ESO barage + topbars.. The only trick is not to max out on Mengsk so you can drop a bunker/troopers on the trasher. ESO barage with chronoboost kills the trashers really fast, but even if you never coordinate that with the ally it doesn't really matter.. Just drop zerg or bunkers or even parashoot in troopers and quickly upgrade them to anything and micro or not because with p3 Mengsk if armed they do substantial damage just by dying :D Also with Mengsk p3 I would say taking only one expo gas mine is enough and those 3 extra soiders, even though it doesn't mean much probably helps more than floating thousands of gas mid and lategame. I know having more population would make him even more op but it would feel so nice to be able to make at least 50 more troopers. By the end of this map I always have like at least 5000, oftentimes, much more resurces banked so I just give the workers weapons too and theres still plenty of money left..
You are so biased in favor or against some commanders... 😄 Artanis does not need P1 at all to use storms. I won easily on my first try with P0 : mass zealots, archons with storms and just enough dragoons to deal with air hybrids. I was with a Karax ally against marines and tanks, so it could have been worse... But I didn't get an easy Zerg comp either. It's funny how another Protoss commander got a special "except P1" S-tier while being more difficult to pull off and just as situational - if not more - as Artanis. I'm far from being an Artanis fanboy, but if A-tier means something like "strong but situational because lacking at least one quality", those two commanders clearly belong this same tier. Other than that, I agree that Zeratul doesn't really need P3 (even though it should be much appreciated) to be S-tier here.
Having a Karax ally does make most commanders look stronger, it helps alot, heals buildings(and mechanical units depending on prestige), unity barier, Karax players often make powerful static, some even overdo it, very strong topbars dont hurt either. On this map and mutation Karax can either overproduce static and use topbars to defend basicaly everything ,or, if defending part is split fairly with an ally, make an air fleet and just snipe the trashers at oportune moments. The only trick is not to engage the waves with the air fleet directly let the waves crash into static + topbar defence, and kill the trashers with planes while they are undefended..
I'm not sure why you think Alarak's AOE is harder to use than Artanis's. Chad ascendants are so much better than high templar. The destruction ball is easier to use than storms, requiring pointing in a general direction without needing to pinpoint aim, it stacks much more efficiently, it deals with moving targets better, and rapidfire benefits it more. Ascendants can also be used to take out hybrid, they will always have energy, and their increasing shields makes them much more forgiving than HT. Archons are also trash and you never want to make them unless you absolutely have to. This is an easy week and Artanis can manage fine, but he's usually near the bottom for a reason.
As one guy in comments said to me, their lists are for solo games, thats reason why ± all slow commanders are at low tier. If they did lists not for solo, ratings everywhere will be other. Raynor will become op, vora p2 will be good and etc. And for me, because this list is for solo games, this and all their lists are useless.
@@igororeskovic4586 Well, there is a difference between making things easier and actually doing things : that's why I would also put Karax in A-tier (for many mutations, by the way). A support commander, as good as he might be, still relies a lot on his partner to push out and target objectives. That's where I think that this week, for once, Artanis is fairly good (and Guardian Shell ftw). I had to do most of the job with this Karax ally (I actually had to help him defend his side of the base after I killed the first thrasher AND the wave on my side) and I could have done it with another partner.
@@PastryScent I said nothing specific about ascendants. I just think that overall, Alarak is more difficult to pull off as a commander. You don't have Guardian Shell, you have a hero unit to micro and ascendants are powerful, sure, but not casual-friendly. On the other side, you make storm sound difficult and/or inefficient and it's clearly not the case. By the way, archons are absolutely not "trash" in a mission which has you deal with thousands of infested/broodlings... 😆 I agree with the fact that Artanis is clearly capped in terms of power compared to the best commanders. I just don't see any reason why he shoudn't receive a little credit where it's due.
30:13
a moment of silence for CtG's cooking
Dehaka: definitely eat and then jump. Died three times and lost half my drones because of this, but pack leaders OP, so won anyway.
han and horner is pretty underrated, the mines are so strong to weaken enemy waves so ur ally dont die, ive been clearing this without horner units without problems.
yes but this tier list is done keeping solos in mind.
I agree that Tychus is S material here as he is most mutations, but you do have to play really well, it's not that hard to slip up and just loose the game because you don't actualy have many back up plans if your strongest outlaws die.. I think that all of the strong "I def" commanders (Karax, Swan, Mengsk) are far easier to play here than Tychus. They win pretty reliably and while their loose condition can be mended by making like 1 or a few more static buildings next time so that the waves don't crash through. With Tychus you always have plenty of oportunity to just misclick in a major fight and just loose the game there :D
Yes on this.
Tychus is still fairly easy to play and is able to go out to kill a thrasher, TP back to clear a wave on his side and TP again if needed ; all that in the same minute. Zeratul and Stetmann may very well be able to do everything as well.
Meanwhile, Karax is 90% dependant on his ally to prevent thrashers from destroying the temple. Swann is just a bit less needy and his flaming turrets are probably the most OP for this mutation. Mengsk is far less dependant for killing thrashers, but his static defense might not be as good.
@@pulp0negr0 I agree with the logic if you play really relaxed or the I def mode only, however, if you try really hard to macro and micro properly with Karax and Swan, as much as you have to micro with Tychus and your ally holds his half you can macro up to air units and kill trashers the key is not to engage the waves let them crash into your static and fly in when the trashers are undefended.
Mengsk is like very S here I think. He just defs with bunkers+turrets and esos+topbars kill the trashers np. With a Karax ally you can hold your side with 4-5 bunkers (you adjust the troopers upgrades to the comp) and like 6-8 turrets. If there isn't a Karax you make 1 more bunker, 2 more turrets and have like 2-3 workers repair If you loose a structure just replace it after the fight.. Ofc you can always overdefend too, doesn't hurt much, its just that you begin to run out of army suply so you have to unload the surpluss bunkers to load the esos..
Also if maxed (that was my most common issue) just walk down a bunker suply worth of troopers down a lane, they die realy fast and you have space to drop that bunker on the trasher again. :D
Im so average at this game when someone scores someone lower than the other person i already agree with that one usually lol. Abathur is a b for most players. A lot of people that watch this are better than average players and you three are all definitely better than regular people. So definitely something to keep in mind for the audience. I think figuring out who the audience is for the rankings will help navigate different opinions. So leaning towards the lower score if regular people are the audience and leaning towards the higher score if its the more advanced players. Also those advanced players will occasionally also have different opinions based on their style so I think they are more the exception to the rule than the standard. I know a few people who mastered han and horner.
That being said when we get a ss like last week i can even solo while snacking lol
I only won this map with a hard carry from Dehaka, as Raynor I got all my production wiped at like 22 minutes. I tried to just defend with bunkers and tanks but couldn’t keep up as it became APM intensive. Defending 3 sides rather than just one ramp.
How do you lose this as Raynor unless you go p3 full sky Terran
@@zachariastsampasidis8880 Besides you being an ass, he did win.
@@zachariastsampasidis8880 actually going p3 full sky terran is the best way to not wipe. bio would get burned by the fire.
@@kingpet what are bunkers and tanky firebats?
@@kingpet Also going full sky fleet means the broodlings and civilians are free to march on the base and temple. You do need some base defense to start. Check twotuu soloing this as p0 with full temple
H&H hellbats will die, but when they do, they'll burn all the broodlings and infested with their on death effect, so that's nice.
Karax p1 + Mengsk p3 combo is prety imba here. Just mass static with both and kill the trashers with ESO barage + topbars.. The only trick is not to max out on Mengsk so you can drop a bunker/troopers on the trasher. ESO barage with chronoboost kills the trashers really fast, but even if you never coordinate that with the ally it doesn't really matter.. Just drop zerg or bunkers or even parashoot in troopers and quickly upgrade them to anything and micro or not because with p3 Mengsk if armed they do substantial damage just by dying :D
Also with Mengsk p3 I would say taking only one expo gas mine is enough and those 3 extra soiders, even though it doesn't mean much probably helps more than floating thousands of gas mid and lategame. I know having more population would make him even more op but it would feel so nice to be able to make at least 50 more troopers. By the end of this map I always have like at least 5000, oftentimes, much more resurces banked so I just give the workers weapons too and theres still plenty of money left..
You are so biased in favor or against some commanders... 😄
Artanis does not need P1 at all to use storms. I won easily on my first try with P0 : mass zealots, archons with storms and just enough dragoons to deal with air hybrids. I was with a Karax ally against marines and tanks, so it could have been worse... But I didn't get an easy Zerg comp either.
It's funny how another Protoss commander got a special "except P1" S-tier while being more difficult to pull off and just as situational - if not more - as Artanis.
I'm far from being an Artanis fanboy, but if A-tier means something like "strong but situational because lacking at least one quality", those two commanders clearly belong this same tier.
Other than that, I agree that Zeratul doesn't really need P3 (even though it should be much appreciated) to be S-tier here.
Having a Karax ally does make most commanders look stronger, it helps alot, heals buildings(and mechanical units depending on prestige), unity barier, Karax players often make powerful static, some even overdo it, very strong topbars dont hurt either.
On this map and mutation Karax can either overproduce static and use topbars to defend basicaly everything ,or, if defending part is split fairly with an ally, make an air fleet and just snipe the trashers at oportune moments. The only trick is not to engage the waves with the air fleet directly let the waves crash into static + topbar defence, and kill the trashers with planes while they are undefended..
I'm not sure why you think Alarak's AOE is harder to use than Artanis's. Chad ascendants are so much better than high templar. The destruction ball is easier to use than storms, requiring pointing in a general direction without needing to pinpoint aim, it stacks much more efficiently, it deals with moving targets better, and rapidfire benefits it more. Ascendants can also be used to take out hybrid, they will always have energy, and their increasing shields makes them much more forgiving than HT. Archons are also trash and you never want to make them unless you absolutely have to.
This is an easy week and Artanis can manage fine, but he's usually near the bottom for a reason.
As one guy in comments said to me, their lists are for solo games, thats reason why ± all slow commanders are at low tier. If they did lists not for solo, ratings everywhere will be other. Raynor will become op, vora p2 will be good and etc. And for me, because this list is for solo games, this and all their lists are useless.
@@igororeskovic4586 Well, there is a difference between making things easier and actually doing things : that's why I would also put Karax in A-tier (for many mutations, by the way). A support commander, as good as he might be, still relies a lot on his partner to push out and target objectives. That's where I think that this week, for once, Artanis is fairly good (and Guardian Shell ftw). I had to do most of the job with this Karax ally (I actually had to help him defend his side of the base after I killed the first thrasher AND the wave on my side) and I could have done it with another partner.
@@PastryScent I said nothing specific about ascendants. I just think that overall, Alarak is more difficult to pull off as a commander. You don't have Guardian Shell, you have a hero unit to micro and ascendants are powerful, sure, but not casual-friendly. On the other side, you make storm sound difficult and/or inefficient and it's clearly not the case. By the way, archons are absolutely not "trash" in a mission which has you deal with thousands of infested/broodlings... 😆
I agree with the fact that Artanis is clearly capped in terms of power compared to the best commanders. I just don't see any reason why he shoudn't receive a little credit where it's due.