Roguelikes dont make narrative sense.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- mfw my character dies the most horrible death but i start another run and they are fine
LMFAOO
Songs used (In Order):
CRABLOOSHI - READ BY THE BOOK | PHIGHTING OST
• READ BY THE BOOK - CRA...
Enter the Gungeon OST - Office Party Massacre
• Office Party Massacre
insaneintherainmusic - Meta Knight’s Revenge (Jazz Cover)
• Kirby Superstar: Meta ...
shiinokenta - Kirby’s Adventure Nightmare Jazz Remix
• Kirby's Adventure Nigh...
Hades OST - God of the Dead
• Hades - God of the Dead
Chrono Ark OST - Crimson Wilderness Boss
• Chrono Ark OST - Crims...
Chrono Ark OST - Show Time
• Chrono Ark OST - Show ...
Chrono Ark OST - Field 1-1
• Chrono Ark (EA) - FIel...
Chrono Ark OST - Hope for Existence
• Chrono Ark OST: VS Wit...
Tokyo Music Walker - EARLY SUMMER
• 🎷 Jazzy Piano (Free Mu...
Chapters
00:00 - Intro
01:35 - Part 1
04:53 - Part 2
05:55 - Part 2.1
08:52 - Part 2.2
11:30 - Part 3
16:35 - Part 4
28:23 - Conclusion - เกม
hey guys future sagunn here!!
after learning alot from your guys' amazing comments and criticisms (ty sm) it has come to my attention that there are some horrendous faults in my arguments either from me just simply not understanding or catching certain parts of story (i am dumb), or just not explaining my argument well enough (clarity issues). this is my first time making a video like this so please bear with me...
I should've aimed to compare HOW roguelikes handle story telling compared to other games, for example, most roguelikes dont have that many story/lore based cutscenes which unveil most of the plot unless it is an introduction cinematic, or the ending of the story. The "journey" part of their story is replaced with raw gameplay, the run, which the player partakes in. Some games still try to have story sprinkled inside of their gameplay by making tid bits of lore like journal entries or data logs, but that takes a bit away from immersion as I would rather see the story be presented in front of me and my gameplay, than having to read about it off to the side. The plot just ends up being "heres a situation, get to the end goal" and the "journey" which would be in the middle of those two points is taken up by the actual roguelike gameplay, which usually isnt self sufficient enough to add to the story in a meaningful/emotional way.
I based these arguments off of MY experience playing roguelikes, and that has its faults because it generalizes my arguments specifically just from how I experienced them , but I would like to address that learning more about the lore/stories of these roguelike worlds requires a decent amount of labor which ISNT intertwined with the gameplay (via game cutscenes, story events, etc), but rather, reading text, go lore hunting, etc.
And the games which do flesh out their narrative, purpose, and story, do so successfully, but to an extent. Their narrative is sufficient enough to keep the player intrigued, but usually nothing more. I dont think I have had the ending of a roguelike make me cry, and thats usually due to their more simplistic plot, lack of stakes and pressure, or just flat out not aiming to invoke that reaction from their playerbase. Compared to other genres which utilize rich storytelling, the difference in how the story effects the player is drastic when you compare the story from a roguelike to another storytelling genre. Like, Omori made me cry like a bitch for atleast 30 minutes straight.
These points, along with the points i mention in the video, is why I truly never become fully immersed in a roguelike, and just take them at a gameplay level value. The "resolve" you usually feel when completing a story based game is from the reflection of the journey and however long it took you to get their, this "resolve" is not only from beating the GAME, but also completing the STORY. When I beat a roguelike, the "resolve" you usually feel is from beating the GAME, because the story doesn't seem to be prominent enough in the gameplay for it to invoke any reaction/emotion out of the player.
I love reading all your comments and I look forward to reading more comments under this one!! thank u for reading this and sorry for my pitfalls and yappity yapping. I am going back into my hole now to make the next video!!!
Oh yea my comment wasn’t a criticism was just saying something that wasn’t in the video , your video is great not perfect of course (nothing can be perfect) still glad that you read it though it’s cool that you do that. a lot of TH-camrs only read like say couple of comments then stop reading them. (This doesn’t classify into bigger TH-camrs is a little hard to read comments but some still read a lot of them)
Chrono Ark is my game of the year
I’m gonna sound like the biggest nerd, But the binding of Isaac does actually have a reason for its replay ability. In the latest ending of the game it shows that this is just Isaac dad and Isaac making a story. At least that’s what Isaac is remembering. All the game play is about is Isaac little imagination world he came up with as a coping mechanism. Some bosses (it lives mainly) show how he wished he was never born killing his self in the womb. And in the segment where you are ascending to “home” you hear Isaac’s parents fighting. There’s tiny bits of his imagination world that is real, and go to real life. (I probably explained this poorly if you want to know more check out an lore video on Isaac) That’s why I think Isaac has the best reason for why he keeps on coming back to life.
As I said in the comment I probably explained this really badly so if your confused and want to know more you can just totally look up a lore video on Isaac there’s a lot of good ones most have the same main idea with some other theory’s they have
Yeah Isaac folds story into itself better than any other roguelike, but it keeps it extremely hands off so lots of people don't get it. I really like the idea that tboi is a story that Isaac is using as a coping mechanism, it makes perfect sense that the game restarts instantly when it ends if he's using it as a coping mechanism. Until repentance this wasn't part of the story, and most interpretations were that this was his dream/nightmare as he suffocates in the chest, but this adds the additional layer of why this specifically is what he's imagining as he dies.
I wrote an in depth explanation on how Dead Cells does make sense with both the reason your character goes back to the beginning and why the world changes each run. I swear it makes sense, but I'm not going to write the same thing again.
I don't think the entire game of isaac and the problems he faced with parents are fake, but I agree the Basement is a coping mechanism
oh wow, yeah i never knew it was that deep
Whenever you die in Gungeon you get shot by the gun that can kill the past, presumably sending you back in time to before you EEEEEEEEEENTER THE GUUUNGEEON so you can yknow... redo stuff
Thank you I felt like I was going insane with how he ignored that
As for the characters' true endings being their past, and the main objective is getting the bullet that can kill the past, I'd also assume the characters' reasons for going in there is to do exactly that
OOOHHH, my bad yall
where does the game tell you that? or is that the gun referenced in the past endings?
@@sagunn It's the gun effect after you die I think. But you also missed that there's a map item that explains that the dungeon is constantly changing and that's why every run is different
@@pubberhubber3462 oooh, I have never ran into that item I recall, or read the tid bit for that
THE CHRONO ARK VIDEO IS REAL ok i can die now
I only saw this now, but as the representative Charon in both Chrono Ark discords:
maybe we'll give you a chance once you acquire true darkness.
DO U REMEMBER ME!?!?!? I LOVE YOU CHARON I HAVE A DISCORD BANNER OF YOU!!!!
12:36 DOMIAN LIKE "DOMAIN EXPATION MALEVOLENT SHRINE"
I feel like with a lot of gaming, there's a resistance to non-linear narratives. I've seen plenty of traditional roguelikes that have really interesting things going on narratively and for their world, and I've seen lots of open world games coming out lately that can't shake the idea that they have to tell a linear narrative so hard that your progression through the game is gated by your story progression and it clashes with the open world aspects. I think developers and writers are still entrenched with the tools they've learned with how to tell a conventional story, and readers standards are still rooted in conventional story telling, so trying out new things ends up falling flat for creators and the audience.
Personally, I really hope to see more writers start to tailor stories around a player's experience with the game. I think games have a massive untapped potential in terms of narrative experience that isn't particularly well explored yet. It's kinda like the idea with visual art that you need to know the rules before you can break them, I think story telling is much the same way. There are ways to break the rules of conventional story telling in ways that work, we just need to explore it more and be okay with stepping out of the comfort zone of linear narratives to find those ways.
Dang, now I want a deep analysis video about why linear and clear-cut narratives passed as more of a "story" conventionally than ones with infinite paths and multiple endings.
i am very much all for change in that sense, love seeing possibilities
To be fair, most stories ARE linear story telling (not always chronological, but at least in a fixed order). If it's diaries, findings, texts, etc, then you should usually not call it story but lore/setting/background. Which is fine, of course, and works for some genres. Especially open world, metroidvania or the like...
For example: Hollow Knight has a ton of great lore and background, and a complicated and wonderful setting. But the "story" is not that special. Very simple and no drama, and only a single 'twist'.
Lobotomy Corporation is considered a rogue-like and replaying the game is actually something you're forced to do and is narratively one of the most important things in the story. I highly recommend the game!
Sharing PTSDs, I see.
@@ultimaxkom8728 Best painful thing I've ever been through
your voice is great and your enthusiasm is so wholesome.
you have great growth potential! You're on a good path!
Chrono Ark that you've shown gave me many insights as an aspiring designer. Thank you for bringing up such a hidden gem. 11/10. +1 for the good data. Oh, also I like the begging joke.
20:26 no no no no, Azar, Phoenix and the Forgotten King. Lucy does forget, but she subconsciously remembers little bits of the previous loops.
thank u for correction!! (i am so stupid!!)
Doesn't the "gun that can kill the past" explain why you can retry in Enter The Gungeon in-universe?
yes
The Void Rains Upon her Heart is a game I could say has a pretty good story. A alien girl known as a Zaraden is in a place that is dark, has monsters everywhere and is constantly raining. She uses “love” to befriend the monsters and be friends with them. Win or lose, eventually they will forget about you and in the case of a won run, the void is gone temporarily but it will always come back and she will try again and again. If you couldn’t tell,it’s about depression or just hopelessness in general.
I just got Chrono Ark like two days ago! I really hope more people play it because its seriously amazing
I'm one of those weirdos who plays games mostly for the story. Besides cult of the lamb, Hades, Going Under and lobotomy Corp (although some people would argue that last one isn't a rouge lite) I've never been interested in rouge likes or rouge lites.
It felt so nice to have someone from the other side of the equation put these thoughts into words.
Anyways, going to go buy Chrono Ark now.
Edit: I FORGOT ABOUT INSCRYPTION! DANIEL MULLINS IS AN AMAZING DEV! PLAY THE HEX IT'S SERIOUSLY UNDERRATED!
Some people mentioned about Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina already, so here's just another thing to add. Chrono Ark has banger OSTs, some made by Studio EIM. Guess which other games that also have banger OSTs by Studio EIM? My, what a coincidence!
So if you like Chrono Ark's music, do give LobCorp and Ruina a try.
Enter the gungeon deaths to me make sense.
You aim to get the gun to kill the past.
But failing you get shot by the that same gun that sends you back before you started the run. Keeping you there for all time.
While you go back, the gungeon and what’s down there stays. After each death you do get shot.
Since if you use the gun to kill the past without the bullet it fires a blank and just brings you back. Not far enough.
You need the actual bullet.
I find it more of a “curse” of the gungeon kinda. Since everyone kinda is stuck there due to their desires.
oooh, WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT THE GUN SHOOTING YOU WHEN YOU DIE THE GUN OF THE PAST
@@sagunn it’s the same reticle as the gun to the past! They are identical! The bullet is the only difference that tears time enough to send you back.
The question is, who’s shooting it? Lol
@@Red_SteampunkerWhat about the stuff the shows up around the characters though? Like the tent near the marine or the table with the hologram player on it? It’s not there immediately,it just starts showing up after some deaths.
@@vipersniperpiper6093 I’ve never noticed that. I need to look at that closer. Sounds interesting tho.
I personally like the way Cutlist Simulator does it. Every "run" you are a completely different person, and, save for some origins, your past life influences your current one.
Hey Sagunn! Love to see you back in the fray!
Rearding Rogue-likes, the two I regularly hear praise of are Hades and God of War Valhalla. In both of these games the revival aspect is bulit in to the lore with the main characters being canonically revived after every session through divine means. Not only does this allow for interesting character interactions with bosses who have bested you multiple times, but it allows for more depth to be peeled away at with every playthrough. I haven't played either unfortunately but I think they serve as good examples of Rogue-likes whose narratives lean into the mechanics of the genre. Lovely video as always and I can't wait to see what you have planned for us next!
Edit: Oop! You beat me to Hades! A lot of the aspects of Hades were also incorporated into God of War Valhalla which I appreciate!
I'm a story guy, so the problems you talked about are what made me drop a lot of roguelikes even though I enjoy playing them. I'll definitely be checking out Chrono Ark. Good video!
Also, Hades mentioned ‼ I absolutely love this game. Bought the game when it was still an Epic-exclusive with Lernie as the final boss. When 1.0 dropped and everyone started streaming it, I was so happy for the devs because they truly created a gem of a game. Defo 2020 GOTY for me.
Splatoon 3 Side Order is a roguelite and it's story requires it to be beat like 12 times. I was pretty bored playing it so many times but I still did so only for the story.
I think there are plenty of ways to give roguelikes good stories, I just don't think most roguelikes are trying hard to have them.
yooo fire video
also, on topic, play pokemon mystery dungeon
I know you mentioned Pokemon on this video, but not mentioning pmd, even in passing, is kind of a missed opportunity
i saw someone else recommend it but lobotomy corporation while not a traditional roguelike, uses that descriptor very well in the way the restarts correspond with the narrative. Cant reccomend it enough. also side note with that Chrono ark mention, the sequel to lob corp library of ruina prolly shares having some of the best deck building in a game w CA! (imo)
i loveee slay the spire
Doesn't Dead Cells literally have jokes about its Story making no sense, or something like that.
Also 30:12 Little Baby Scared of Leshy.
me no like horor :c
chrono ark mentioned i hit like
I played chrono ark prior to this video, just reaffirmed my positive experience with the game.
16:53 pay me.
sigh...
Nice video pal
I see a lot of narrative reasons in other rogue lite/like games as to why you have to replay the game everytime I think the difference between this and a game like hades is because yeah maybe in terms of lore it'll make sense for example oh whenever you kill the final boss the world goes back in time for you to do it all over again but that just feels like an excuse rather than an extension of that world. Also why does everyone forget about pyre in the supergiant roster ;-; its by far my favorite game.
When I saw skul the hero slayer. I knew that I had to watch this video
love little bone
Chrono ark best game
I wasn't sure if I would like this video at first because I couldn't tell what the basis for your critique was. I was thinking to myself "yeah of course Isaac doesn't have a running linear narrative throughout, its a symbolic journey of an abused child's trauma" and then you introduced Hades and I was like "oh, I guess some roguelikes CAN have a linear narrative" lmao.
nah you good, this video was like all over the place, i was trying to address narrative story telling, binding of issac is very ceonceptual though and i like that
Nice
my favorite roguelike is Noita, it has a story "probably"
well i know there is lore in that game somewhere but the devs rly dont want u to find it kek
Personally didn't agree, also Wizard of legends if I recall is a magic gauntlet put forth to test people on if they are a wizard of well legends, so I thought it was obvious the test had classic magic trope where if you take too much damage you get sent back home. The player doesn't always have to "die" to restart in a rouge like. Maybe just defeated.
so somethings
dead cells and binding of isaac do technically have a reason for the repeats
isaac's entire game happens inside the imagination of a child, and dead cells has a lot of lore bits explaining the fact that, you don't die, the body youre using gets broken, but you yourself do not die, not going to go into too much detail into it but there's a lot of lore to it
secondly, I want to talk about the roguelike genre definition, and the reason why google has it defined like that, it's cause, well, that's how rogue (the game) plays like
so originally roguelike was just a description of games that played like rogue (how much like rogue was wildly debated but that's another topic entirely)
it's also why there is also the discussion of naming stuff roguelites instead that never went through and instead people just call roguelikes that play like rogue "traditional roguelikes"
lots of history of how we got here
if youre curious what a modern traditional roguelike plays like, the two latest i can think of are caves of qud and the newest mainline entry in the mystery dungeon series, Shiren 6 (shiren 5 is on steam but not 6)
definately will check those out, ty for the educated comment very much!!
I'm surprised by how many of the games in the list of idk characters actually belong to the power trip section, side note I kind of hate calling them that. Wizard of Legend while never directly stated likely belongs to none of the listed categories as the dungeon run is actually a sports completion and it's unlikely they would let you die in a sporting event.
What game was at 0:52? I keep a list of merfolk/fishpeople in vidya games so I would like to add the character here to the list, Lol.
Also... I'll be the one to drop the obligatory "these games are not very roguelike" comment. I know you touched a little on this in the video, but in actuality the term 'Roguelike' was born as a metric of how similar or dissimilar a game is to 'Rogue'. If you go try out Rogue and the many, many games inspired by it (NetHack, DCSS, or Caves of Qud as a modern example), you'll learn pretty quickly why the term exists. The definition you assigned to "Roguelike" is exactly what people mean when they say "Roguelite" (note the T).
The word has obviously taken on a much different public connotation nowadays, but I'm fond of both Roguelikes and Roguelites, so I and many others still appreciate being able to distinguish between the two wildly different genres.
All this to say, I do think game genre names are kind of ridiculous and non-descriptive, but I feel "Roguelike" was once a fairly useful term, so I'll fight for it!
the game is called uh... "Monster girls and the mysterious adventure 2" (please dont judge me)
On top of this, yeah i completely agree with your argument, one of my faults with this video was that i just stuck to the more "modern" definition of roguelike since I am kinda a youngster and grew up with them, will definatelly look at Rogue and its modern examples. ty for the time invested in ur comment!!
Roguelikes for me are almost entirely about gameplay... BUT DAMM!!!! I have to play chrono ark :D
funny fella
I think returnals narritive is excellent, if you havent played it already, it is really good game
this aged poorly when Chrono Ark came out...
yeahh dont remind me... GAME IS OUT THO GO PLAY!!!!
most of these roguelikes explain how their characters come back pretty coherently.
i think it's pretty clear that in risk of rain you're playing a disposable character. captain's literal name isn't "captain" thats his role on the ship. same thing with huntress, mul-t, basically all of them except rex, acrid, and void fiend. their names are mostly job titles, which implies they're just drones being sent to petrichor in droves. sure they all keep a consistent gender and backstory, but that seems less like saying "you are the same person every time" and more like "random backstories would be boring, twice the character models would be tedious".
in wizard of legend, you aren't fighting to the death, you are playing in a competition to test the most powerful wizards of the realm and they send you back for failing because- again- its just a really prestigious competition. they aren't out to murder contestants.
slay the spire and enter the gungeon take place in a strange and incomprehensible eldritch location, with the gungeon canonically already having strange powers around time and with every death playing an animation of you being shot by the gun that can kill the past. it seems pretty clear both of those are just kinda an awful repetitious purgatory
your character is immortal in dead cells. you see them kinda crawl back into a body each time. i mean, they don't explain how he got that way or how he keeps finding new bodies but it's pretty clearly explained.
i love ur comment it addresses a lot which i basically didnt know (except for the circumstances in deadcells and wizard of legend, i know about the competition thing and deadcells doesnt explain how the guy dies), throughout my gameplay expierence i never really did understand what was going in games like risk of rain or gungeon/slay the spire because i dont think the game clearly addressed what was really happening, they address it in their extra tid bits of lore readings and dungeon logs but unless i take the extra time and labor to go through those, i would not know anything.
also in wizard of legend I though the story had higher stakes then that? you beat the other champions, but then there is that one guy at the end which has all the elements and the choas stuff? is he evil or is he like, just oooh special
Look the only rogue-like (barely a rogue like the only element is what abno you get) I enjoy the story of is Lobotomy corporation and maybe Isaac though story for that game you have to piece that out yourself
Alright, rest time is over. Angela is calling you over to take care of Queen of Hatred. Just don't mess it up.
What's the game at 0:31?
its a roguelike war strategy game called prime of flames! its like fire emblem in a way i think..? very niche and small community but really good game
@@sagunn thanks!
Noita
And Scourgebringer
Great video, but I will state this video assumes everything is using a linear narrative. Almost no rogue-like uses a linear narrative. Even Hades doesn't because it loops over and over and over. I know a video title wouldn't be called rogue likes make no linear narrative sense, but the way you talk about each game makes it sound like that was indeed an assumption you made. All said and done your video is good. Just keep in mind how your own take does come across as uninformed.
I completely agree, and yes I am very uninformed! This video was coming from the perspective of someone who doesn’t pick up on story elements in games too well. Also you are correct, I threw the word “linear” around randomly, I think if I used a term which addresses just quality of narrative story, this video would have made more sense as that was what I was trying to address. Thank u for the comment and kind words!
Hades makes sense
whoever got my voodoo doll stroke da tip a lil
Gow Valhalla did one of the best stories for one of these imo