Got recommended this by the algorithm and loved the video. Leaving the whole like/comment/sub package, and waiting for those other fighting the game vids ;)
Thats where I think the accessibility shines in a positive way. If something is difficult to do, make it easier, not nonexistent. It's like the move from Guilty Gear Accent Core to Xrd, in many ways on release Xrd was the "easier Guilty Gear" game that Arcsys had been seeking, but they did it in a way that didn't simplify things too much, just made existing things such as inputs and jump canceling easier.
I think I just found another goldmine of fighting game video essays. I am really excited to see what you produce next, this video was simply spectacular.
Really good look into how something like introducing a new type of controller can completely mess up the way a game plays and how fighting games have worked on preventing such issues from happening, loved this video.
Really good video, I'm watching some of the other fighting game videos from your channel and I feel like I found another me. Keep up with this series, It's really well made and the topic is something I care a lot
What's pretty funny is that in it's time the old Melty was apparently considered the "easy game" of the time (I remember LK talking about that at one point where he was talking about how Melty was perceived back then when he was comparing Dragon Ball and Melty). But from my own limited experience with MBACC (I tried it out for a couple days) I didn't really have any trouble with half circle motions and was able to consistently whiff punish people using Ciel's EX half circle move (I think it was 41236C) even though I didn't play the game that much; I also had a 22 input for a reversal which was really neat (or the move I mentioned earlier if it was more appropriate). I was however terrible at the game obviously, but motions weren't the issue. I actually find the half circles in MBACC easier to do than the half circle back, forward (632146) motions in Strive (I play on pad, and I'm really bad at those; for whatever reason I keep accidentally hitting up (making me jump if I'm not buffering from another move) on the way back to the right).
I will say this was a super good explanation on how "leniency" actually help a lot of the player (especially in the new surge of variative controller design that the player use) on a sidenote i really wanted some game to have an option to turn on and off the leniency in the setting so that accidental special/super input wouldnt happen in some case (especially it will be beneficial for joystick/arcade stick player, where they wouldnt have some messy input to begin with) So it will still "accessible" for the whole audience but also could benefit the high level player to avoid any accidental input mistake when they use stick controller Which mean stick controller and button only controller now have a clear advantage, in before if the leniency couldnt be turn off then hitbox/keyboard just more precise than any stick controller, but in the future if it could be turn off then stick could have advantage over accidental miss input (while button only controller could still have advantage in case of precise input, which is really good for charge character)
9:50 Agree 9:53 Intensely Disagree I get your point about half circles being difficult in MBAACC, I wont argue that, but input leniency already exist in it(and a lot more games than you'd expect). But even if it didn't, you are *⌈malding⌋* because some games want you to actually do the thing that activates a move, instead of letting you use the move even when you didn't use the correct input(so horrible). Some games emphasize on execution more. Like Melty Blood. Others focus more on fundamentals. Like SFIII. And through out your video, you were saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Inputs should come from intent, not execution". I disagree, you shouldn't disregard execution because it's very limiting. Misinputs will always exist even in the SSB and you can't just try to be rid a game of execution because of that. If you don't want to play a game with high execution, that's fine, but don't go around calling stricter systems poor because you can't be bothered to do some basic inputs. TL:DR git gut
Good video. I play on on PC, and i don't have any other controller except keyboard. I know that on arcade stick motion inputs are easy, but if you try do it on keyboard... Especially full circle motion. It's just don't feel good, because you always mostly track correct input, but not the game. You don't think about your decisions. And i can do motion inputs stable, but it's very uncomfortable on keyboard. Just sharing my experience.
Play breakers revenge, its buttons are really responsive, has alot of great command normals, the input timings are lenient and its so fun to play. It's my street fighter and really underrated.
Another point to consider is that the Mortal Kombat and Injustice games seem specifically designed for console and controllers. You notice they never ask for a diagonal input. A quater circle is just down and forwards instead of down, downforwards, forwards. This makes the game far more lenient when played with a D-pad, since motion controls tend to feel off on thumbsticks. Like, honestly, would a hadouken be any different if it just required down and forward? If you're worried about players being able to input it faster than simply add an extra frame or two to the startup of the move itself. Motion inputs were made for arcade sticks, if they want to continue, they need to be more lenient.
melty blood half circles are propaganda spread by big french bread to put op moves behind an execution barrier to purposefully nerf keyboard players : )
I one day decided to pick up Blazblue Chrono Phantasma because I was interested in experiencing the story and playing as the characters. I had watched ALL the cutscenes of the previous two games (cause they weren't available on PS4 and my PC at the time was a steaming pile of garbo) so I was hyped to properly dive into the series...I shit you not I got stuck on the tutorial. I needed to perform a half circle for Ragna to do some kind of dash forward or uppercut move and no matter how much I tried I could never pull it off consistently. I maybe did it 1 or 2 times by mistake, confused and dumbstruck. In the end I used the auto combo system to just finish the story content. Now I am BY NO MEANS experienced in fighting games. The most I have been involved with them is owning Smash Bros Brawl + playing Tekken and Soul Calibur at my friends place. Still Jubei said the game gave plenty of time to pull of that move and I just COULDN'T. Idk maybe I am just ass at traditional 2D fighting games (I am), but as basically a brand new player that half-circle seemed like an impossibility. I wonder if that game had a "close enough" system, but if it did...ha, yeah I might just suck. That was years ago so Idk maybe I'd do a smidge less terrible or maybe even worse!
stuff like this makes me think about the ethics of making a macro type program that would convert failed inputs to be more in line with the modern lenient inputs also maybe dash macro cuz god i hate doube tap dash
heritage for the future has “close enough” inputs for all of its motion inputs, and it came out in 1999. Just thought it would be interesting for you to know
Help! I sometimes jump while inputing a dp motion when I get excited, how do I avoid this issue? I also have it when I try to do half circle suppers in ggst
I honestly never had any issues performing half circle inputs on my basic switch pro controller in meltly. Z inputs on the other hand... Thank christ my main doesn't need to use them. But in all fairness I can't do z inputs in any game.
Dang, that really sucks to hear. I've heard similar experiences from other people, and unfortunately, it seems like input reading isn't a thing I've ever seen patched in pretty much any fighting game. I love Goldlewis' design too, but it's a shame it's gotta be like this.
sometimes simplifying to close enough to make things easier can lead to things being more annoying. I main arcana heart, who play a lot of characters, and its really annoying how it often does 623 or 214 when i try to 22. cuz for some reason the game reads something as close enough. weiss has a 623 and 632146 command grab, and i find i often accidentally command grab because the game reads 6321236 as close enough when i want to dp and accidentally over rotated. nazuna has a similar opposite issue where i often try to 641236x and get her 623 motion. I am glad that you dont have to be perfect with double half circles in newer games though, since that motion was hell in old games.
I don’t agree that it should be “easier” to do inputs in my opinion but then also I think it’s a good thing because none of my friends play fighting games and they have no clue how to do them so it helps them either get into them or at least play for a bit. I agree you shouldn’t have to make practice a part time job but for me it’s something about getting a combo down on cvs2 or MvC2 that makes it so much more worth it
If you think making the controls to be intuitive as to reliably convert your intentions into actions is good design then you need to get rid of motions altogether imo At least if thats the end goal
As an arcade stick player, I actually find half-circles to be easier than the Shoryuken (623) motion. The reason is that a half-circle is a smooth motion; there are no abrupt changes in direction. On the other hand, for a Shoryuken motion, you have to go from forward to down abruptly, and that is jarring to me. You either have to wait for the stick to return to neutral, so you can then do a QCF and get the input out, or you have to manually maneuver the stick to go from forward to down to do the input. Either way, it doesn't feel "smooth." The upside is that I still can't do Shoryuken motions on demand despite playing on a stick for almost a year now. If my character has a DP, I just don't risk it anymore because I know I'll fail and then eat a meaty into a long combo. If there's any motion input that I wish death upon, it's the Shoryuken motion. I honestly think fighting game devs should replace it with HCB (half-circle back).
Most fighting games have also been shaving off half-circles whenever possible (and sometimes even DPs). FighterZ, Strive and now Type Lumina are amazing examples of that. Under Night as well, to a certain extent.
I understand the attachment towards what has been hardly obtained. That been said, it shouldn't be assumed that there couldn't be a way to implement a enjoyable level of difficulty without using what has been used in the past, in this case motion inputs. The fighting game genre ain't what it was, and a 2020s kid isn't a 90s one, with time comes change and if there's a way to make this style of games more accesible and even fun, then I think everyone should embrace this development.
What are your thoughts on having special moves be on a cooldown? I'm asking since you don't think that motion inputs should be inherently hard to do and cooldowns are a way of cutting out the middle man. Would love if you answered this question as some games have dabbled with them.
you don't have to execute perfectly in mbaacc. it's just people being spoiled by newer titles with their bigger buffers> at the time, 8f input buffer was really generous. but Melty's inpot system required you to hit all of the directions (unless it was kohaku's pretzel) of the move and then a button after within 8f unless you manually buffer it.(632147B) is tk half circle for instance in MBAACC(most notably used in C-arc's advanced corner bnb).
Honestly, I don't agree, there's some kind of satisfaction in looking at your input history and see that all your half circles were clean, besides, some characters are designed with strict input leniency in mind For example Naoto in Blazblue can cancel his dodge with a dash; specials are enhanced if he does them from a dash; one of his bnbs is canceling a 6D with his dodge (214A) and then dash cancel that into his rekkas to confirm (236B) So the input would be 6D>214A>2366B If you do a half circle forward B though, you get a super
You are right in saying there is a huge sense of satisfaction when it comes to execution, so obviously, making it easier might make that feeling not as strong for some. However, at least for me, I think a lot more is lost in not being able to do a move in the first place. I will say, though, I think BBCF does a really good job at accommodating players as a whole. While an extraordinarily complex game, there's still fun to be had at a lower level with simpler combos and easy-to-perform motions (like more lenient half circles as I mentioned in the video). I'll also say that input overlap is a whole other beast entirely, but I've got a few choice words for that.
I HARD disagree that all motion inputs should be lenient. Execution isn’t about fighting the controller, it’s about fighting your own limits. When I play a game with really lenient motion inputs, I can’t help but feel a lack of the kinetic joy that comes from knowing that YOU pushed yourself to the point where you can execute something difficult. I’m not going to act like fighting games are “supposed to be this way” and I’m genuinely glad that there are new games that cater to different kinds of players, but what would platforming as a genre be if they were all easy or all hard? If you can’t do consistent half circles in melty blood, that means YOU weren’t willing to push yourself to master it, and that’s completely fine.
Got recommended this by the algorithm and loved the video. Leaving the whole like/comment/sub package, and waiting for those other fighting the game vids ;)
Found another goldmine of a channel. Keep up the good work.
RUN UP FIREBALL? HAVE A DP.
Man, this one hurts way too much.
Yes this is a big annoyance for me as well
Thats where I think the accessibility shines in a positive way. If something is difficult to do, make it easier, not nonexistent. It's like the move from Guilty Gear Accent Core to Xrd, in many ways on release Xrd was the "easier Guilty Gear" game that Arcsys had been seeking, but they did it in a way that didn't simplify things too much, just made existing things such as inputs and jump canceling easier.
I think I just found another goldmine of fighting game video essays. I am really excited to see what you produce next, this video was simply spectacular.
Really good look into how something like introducing a new type of controller can completely mess up the way a game plays and how fighting games have worked on preventing such issues from happening, loved this video.
I found a hidden gem of a video, thank you youtube algorithm
Really good video, I'm watching some of the other fighting game videos from your channel and I feel like I found another me. Keep up with this series, It's really well made and the topic is something I care a lot
You sir gained a new subscraiber, i like the way you talk and the points you make
What's pretty funny is that in it's time the old Melty was apparently considered the "easy game" of the time (I remember LK talking about that at one point where he was talking about how Melty was perceived back then when he was comparing Dragon Ball and Melty). But from my own limited experience with MBACC (I tried it out for a couple days) I didn't really have any trouble with half circle motions and was able to consistently whiff punish people using Ciel's EX half circle move (I think it was 41236C) even though I didn't play the game that much; I also had a 22 input for a reversal which was really neat (or the move I mentioned earlier if it was more appropriate). I was however terrible at the game obviously, but motions weren't the issue. I actually find the half circles in MBACC easier to do than the half circle back, forward (632146) motions in Strive (I play on pad, and I'm really bad at those; for whatever reason I keep accidentally hitting up (making me jump if I'm not buffering from another move) on the way back to the right).
it was famous for being one of the most accessible FGs at the time.
@@noticeme6412 it kinda still is tbh
I would say it is still relatively accessible
nice, gonna be looking forward for that part two
Ahri on da percs
Wow, as a long term player of hisotensoku (or used to) its so strange seeing touhou mentioned in a video essay about fighting games.
I will say this was a super good explanation on how "leniency" actually help a lot of the player (especially in the new surge of variative controller design that the player use)
on a sidenote i really wanted some game to have an option to turn on and off the leniency in the setting so that accidental special/super input wouldnt happen in some case (especially it will be beneficial for joystick/arcade stick player, where they wouldnt have some messy input to begin with)
So it will still "accessible" for the whole audience but also could benefit the high level player to avoid any accidental input mistake when they use stick controller
Which mean stick controller and button only controller now have a clear advantage, in before if the leniency couldnt be turn off then hitbox/keyboard just more precise than any stick controller, but in the future if it could be turn off then stick could have advantage over accidental miss input (while button only controller could still have advantage in case of precise input, which is really good for charge character)
This is the last video of the series. Haha. Happens to the best of us, hopefully you can get back on that horse and finish the videos you had in mind
Yeah, I got caught up in the start of semester chaos, but I'm doing my best to catch up. Sorry about that, the delays are bothering me too, honestly.
@@elporteltv No, no. Its completely understandable. It really is.
Pretzel on, brave input soldier of god
9:50 Agree
9:53 Intensely Disagree
I get your point about half circles being difficult in MBAACC, I wont argue that, but input leniency already exist in it(and a lot more games than you'd expect). But even if it didn't, you are *⌈malding⌋* because some games want you to actually do the thing that activates a move, instead of letting you use the move even when you didn't use the correct input(so horrible). Some games emphasize on execution more. Like Melty Blood. Others focus more on fundamentals. Like SFIII. And through out your video, you were saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Inputs should come from intent, not execution". I disagree, you shouldn't disregard execution because it's very limiting. Misinputs will always exist even in the SSB and you can't just try to be rid a game of execution because of that. If you don't want to play a game with high execution, that's fine, but don't go around calling stricter systems poor because you can't be bothered to do some basic inputs.
TL:DR git gut
Basement dweller.
Showing Xbox fridge, the Razer toaster, and (especially) the wifi router that looks like a PS5 is a great visual gag.
Good video. I play on on PC, and i don't have any other controller except keyboard. I know that on arcade stick motion inputs are easy, but if you try do it on keyboard... Especially full circle motion. It's just don't feel good, because you always mostly track correct input, but not the game. You don't think about your decisions. And i can do motion inputs stable, but it's very uncomfortable on keyboard. Just sharing my experience.
Play breakers revenge, its buttons are really responsive, has alot of great command normals, the input timings are lenient and its so fun to play. It's my street fighter and really underrated.
Another point to consider is that the Mortal Kombat and Injustice games seem specifically designed for console and controllers. You notice they never ask for a diagonal input. A quater circle is just down and forwards instead of down, downforwards, forwards. This makes the game far more lenient when played with a D-pad, since motion controls tend to feel off on thumbsticks.
Like, honestly, would a hadouken be any different if it just required down and forward? If you're worried about players being able to input it faster than simply add an extra frame or two to the startup of the move itself.
Motion inputs were made for arcade sticks, if they want to continue, they need to be more lenient.
melty blood half circles are propaganda spread by big french bread to put op moves behind an execution barrier to purposefully nerf keyboard players : )
I don't know if I do or don't want Lumina to fix half circles at this rate lol
I one day decided to pick up Blazblue Chrono Phantasma because I was interested in experiencing the story and playing as the characters. I had watched ALL the cutscenes of the previous two games (cause they weren't available on PS4 and my PC at the time was a steaming pile of garbo) so I was hyped to properly dive into the series...I shit you not I got stuck on the tutorial. I needed to perform a half circle for Ragna to do some kind of dash forward or uppercut move and no matter how much I tried I could never pull it off consistently. I maybe did it 1 or 2 times by mistake, confused and dumbstruck. In the end I used the auto combo system to just finish the story content. Now I am BY NO MEANS experienced in fighting games. The most I have been involved with them is owning Smash Bros Brawl + playing Tekken and Soul Calibur at my friends place. Still Jubei said the game gave plenty of time to pull of that move and I just COULDN'T. Idk maybe I am just ass at traditional 2D fighting games (I am), but as basically a brand new player that half-circle seemed like an impossibility. I wonder if that game had a "close enough" system, but if it did...ha, yeah I might just suck. That was years ago so Idk maybe I'd do a smidge less terrible or maybe even worse!
stuff like this makes me think about the ethics of making a macro type program that would convert failed inputs to be more in line with the modern lenient inputs
also maybe dash macro cuz god i hate doube tap dash
8:45 THIS SHOULD NO LONGER HAPPEN
Hadoken and DP (or any other move) don’t have to be overlapping after Mortal Kombat and SF5
heritage for the future has “close enough” inputs for all of its motion inputs, and it came out in 1999. Just thought it would be interesting for you to know
Help! I sometimes jump while inputing a dp motion when I get excited, how do I avoid this issue? I also have it when I try to do half circle suppers in ggst
I honestly never had any issues performing half circle inputs on my basic switch pro controller in meltly.
Z inputs on the other hand...
Thank christ my main doesn't need to use them.
But in all fairness I can't do z inputs in any game.
Loved the video keep up the good work👍
Saldy no jump protection on Goldlewis half circles. Visual design clicked for me, but sadly can't do them vertical halfcircles.
Dang, that really sucks to hear. I've heard similar experiences from other people, and unfortunately, it seems like input reading isn't a thing I've ever seen patched in pretty much any fighting game. I love Goldlewis' design too, but it's a shame it's gotta be like this.
The 89.../87...HS specials were designed to be cancelled into rather than used from neutral.
no jump protection but if youre fast enough you can do them in neutral lol you gotta be very fast tho
sometimes simplifying to close enough to make things easier can lead to things being more annoying. I main arcana heart, who play a lot of characters, and its really annoying how it often does 623 or 214 when i try to 22. cuz for some reason the game reads something as close enough. weiss has a 623 and 632146 command grab, and i find i often accidentally command grab because the game reads 6321236 as close enough when i want to dp and accidentally over rotated. nazuna has a similar opposite issue where i often try to 641236x and get her 623 motion.
I am glad that you dont have to be perfect with double half circles in newer games though, since that motion was hell in old games.
Great vid! Keep it up yo
5:49 good to know I'm not normal
I don’t agree that it should be “easier” to do inputs in my opinion but then also I think it’s a good thing because none of my friends play fighting games and they have no clue how to do them so it helps them either get into them or at least play for a bit. I agree you shouldn’t have to make practice a part time job but for me it’s something about getting a combo down on cvs2 or MvC2 that makes it so much more worth it
I think melty had pretty easy execution for the most part
But i also understand the struggle
"there's a high chance that goldlewis won't have any issues for even HITBOX players"
oh honey
If you think making the controls to be intuitive as to reliably convert your intentions into actions is good design then you need to get rid of motions altogether imo
At least if thats the end goal
Does gg strive still use this "close enough" system? Im looking to get into it but how the inputs work would play a big part in my decision
hey, nice video
Hitboxes are WAY more precise than sticks.
As an arcade stick player, I actually find half-circles to be easier than the Shoryuken (623) motion. The reason is that a half-circle is a smooth motion; there are no abrupt changes in direction. On the other hand, for a Shoryuken motion, you have to go from forward to down abruptly, and that is jarring to me. You either have to wait for the stick to return to neutral, so you can then do a QCF and get the input out, or you have to manually maneuver the stick to go from forward to down to do the input. Either way, it doesn't feel "smooth." The upside is that I still can't do Shoryuken motions on demand despite playing on a stick for almost a year now. If my character has a DP, I just don't risk it anymore because I know I'll fail and then eat a meaty into a long combo.
If there's any motion input that I wish death upon, it's the Shoryuken motion. I honestly think fighting game devs should replace it with HCB (half-circle back).
Hope you've included KOF for its half circle and pretzel motion and precise timing it needs and the overall complexity and the uniqueness of it.
Imagine losing to the steering wheel guy 💀
Melty is on the easier execution end at the time cause of the buffers.
also, MBAACC and vanilla melty are not the same.
thanks mr algorithm
Most fighting games have also been shaving off half-circles whenever possible (and sometimes even DPs). FighterZ, Strive and now Type Lumina are amazing examples of that. Under Night as well, to a certain extent.
Accessibility = kusoge
I understand the attachment towards what has been hardly obtained. That been said, it shouldn't be assumed that there couldn't be a way to implement a enjoyable level of difficulty without using what has been used in the past, in this case motion inputs. The fighting game genre ain't what it was, and a 2020s kid isn't a 90s one, with time comes change and if there's a way to make this style of games more accesible and even fun, then I think everyone should embrace this development.
Wow!
What are your thoughts on having special moves be on a cooldown? I'm asking since you don't think that motion inputs should be inherently hard to do and cooldowns are a way of cutting out the middle man. Would love if you answered this question as some games have dabbled with them.
gg
you don't have to execute perfectly in mbaacc. it's just people being spoiled by newer titles with their bigger buffers>
at the time, 8f input buffer was really generous. but Melty's inpot system required you to hit all of the directions (unless it was kohaku's pretzel) of the move and then a button after within 8f unless you manually buffer it.(632147B) is tk half circle for instance in MBAACC(most notably used in C-arc's advanced corner bnb).
also, the tk half circle for c-arc was easy, just don't input it fast and add 7
Honestly, I don't agree, there's some kind of satisfaction in looking at your input history and see that all your half circles were clean, besides, some characters are designed with strict input leniency in mind
For example Naoto in Blazblue can cancel his dodge with a dash; specials are enhanced if he does them from a dash; one of his bnbs is canceling a 6D with his dodge (214A) and then dash cancel that into his rekkas to confirm (236B)
So the input would be 6D>214A>2366B
If you do a half circle forward B though, you get a super
You are right in saying there is a huge sense of satisfaction when it comes to execution, so obviously, making it easier might make that feeling not as strong for some. However, at least for me, I think a lot more is lost in not being able to do a move in the first place.
I will say, though, I think BBCF does a really good job at accommodating players as a whole. While an extraordinarily complex game, there's still fun to be had at a lower level with simpler combos and easy-to-perform motions (like more lenient half circles as I mentioned in the video). I'll also say that input overlap is a whole other beast entirely, but I've got a few choice words for that.
I know the link you mean. If the timing were a frame or two more generous I don't think that overlap would be quite so bad.
I HARD disagree that all motion inputs should be lenient. Execution isn’t about fighting the controller, it’s about fighting your own limits. When I play a game with really lenient motion inputs, I can’t help but feel a lack of the kinetic joy that comes from knowing that YOU pushed yourself to the point where you can execute something difficult. I’m not going to act like fighting games are “supposed to be this way” and I’m genuinely glad that there are new games that cater to different kinds of players, but what would platforming as a genre be if they were all easy or all hard? If you can’t do consistent half circles in melty blood, that means YOU weren’t willing to push yourself to master it, and that’s completely fine.
Scrub