@@buddy1155 so what you are telling me is european and american companies did not get any subsidies and tax breaks in 1920s and after world war 2 (1950s)? i cant with western hypocricy..like you have build all of your giant companies with huge amount of unfair and unethical trade practices and now that your companies are already established, you wont let any company to compete with your so called legacy brands by simply blacklisting them or taxing them .
so you are proposing all of industry be taken over by a foreign country just because you believe in a free market? No government in their right mind will do that. If it's rational may be a completely different question all together. But local constituencies losing jobs and customers is certainly a thing that can end a politicians career faster than you can say "snap election!" And market is saturated, the question is just what with. If it's from abroad you create a dependency. Remeber CoVid? Disrupted supply chains..? You want to keep your industry alive to some degree. Even if were not profitable on it's own.
@@jaorlowskibusinesses won't survive with restrictions. Wait till China hit back with restrictions EU company that depends on export will collapse too.
@@jaorlowskithe word believed in free market for decades even know it never favoured anyone apart from few individuals so Europe now need to believe in free market like it or not 😊 you can’t just say today is free market cause it favours me tomorrow now free market cause it doesn’t favour me anymore I ain’t this a hypocrisy ?
@@ka3axka370 sorry, but politicians never believe what they say. They say things because it favours them, not the other way around. If someone says "free market is great", it means they are at an advantage and want access to your market. And some people believe them because it lures them in with lower prices and competition and efficiency. And it often does, but often to the detriment of the workers or consumers, or national trade deficit, depending on the goods and volume.
Germany is the last country that can say that China's exports are overcapacity. Germany's exports account for 40% of its GDP, far more than China's 20%.
German cars are in demand all over the world for their quality and design track record. Although not perfect, they are way above the average. Chinese cars are cheap because the CCP wants to hurt the European economy.
I thought they were telling us we had to reduce our carbon footprint, now they don’t really want us to do that as cheaply and quickly as possible? It’s almost as of they have been lying to us all along and it’s just about making money😂
@@nicholasjacome341 It is possible it is real, it is also possible it’s not real. My point from the very start of this narrative is that, by definition, it is approaching impossible to model any complex system, including climate. Therefore when scientists confidently predict this or that, I know they are lying, therefore there must be an alternative motive. It saddens me that science has been corrupted by commercial interests.
I think its an combination of wanting people to reduce their carbon footprint with electric cars and wanting to protect their local car industry/peoples jobs. How can someone who makes a car in Germany compete against someone in China? Of course someone living in Germany gets paid more then someone in China.
Hey, I thought Trump taught us that tariffs and trade wars were a bad thing! Remember how the EU was going crazy over Trump protecting American automakers from the EU’s tax payer funded auto industry? They called him crazy! Now it’s okay right?
It’s not good for business so there’s validity behind them being “a bad thing” (unless you’re all in for government interventionism and against free market… but assuming you’re a conservative that’d be counter intuitive to being fiscally conservative, and free market philosophy), but it’s the right call given the geopolitical landscape with China and I think the EU is starting to see the risks being coupled to China economically.
Tariffs have been happening long before Trump. Varying opinions on them. Like many things, you just needed someone to tell you how to think. Unfortunately.
Why? China is subsidising companies, something that is illegal in western countries. Companies can get huge fines in the western world, just think about Boeing and Airbus that both got money from governments. If a company like VW gets money from the government a Chinese company can go to court and have them fined, the other way around is not possible. It is just leveling the playing field.
@@ryanwalters6184 The Chinese is polluting more than everyone else but they also do a lot to cut down emissions. If they hadn't made EV's and solar panels prices would have been double and maybe more than it is today. People need cars and EV's are far better for the environment than any other car including production pollution
On a per car basis, the Chinese subsidies are trivial. BYD, the top Chinese EV car maker had subsidies of $3.7B USD over 4 years and they sell 3M cars a year. So the subsidies amount to about $300 a car. Just a rounding error when talking about car prices. If the EU thinks subsidies are an issue, there's nothing stopping them from subsidizing their cars just like they already heavily subsidize their agricultural industry. In fact, I'm pretty sure existing EU auto subsidies are already well over $300 USD per car.
So why didn't you take into account the whole amount of subsidies? $3.7 billion is only a direct government aid. What about additional support for local battery manufacturers and rebates for car buyers, mentioned by Kiel Institute for the World Economy? I'm sure that only rebate is amounted to more that several thousands dollars per car. Additionally, according to the Kiel Institute, China gave direct payments to virtually all of its listed companies, including wind, solar, and railway - putting its aid at as much as nine times higher than the amount large EU and OECD countries such as Germany and the US offer, the report said. Of cource this is not direct aid, but it can additionally help the producer to decrease costs. And moreover, you can not take into account such possible ways of supporting as interest-free loans, tax vacations, different permissions for mining, emissions, pollution, transportation, workforce and so on, that can be easily granted by government in authoritarian countries. Of course, all these types of help is almost impossible to express in dollar amount per car and convey it to the public, but industry professionals and manufacturers can easily feel it when something is "wrong".
@@Viktor_Shcherbyna The figure I heard was $29B USD in subsidies over 13 years from 2009-2022 for batteries. Considering how many batteries China has sold over those 13 years, again it's a trivial amount per battery. When you say that China gives 9 times as much support for wind and solar, you are admitting that the US and Germany are giving more subsidies per panel or turbine blade than China since China easily produces and sells far more than 9 times as many panels as US and Germany even if your 9 times figure is accurate.. All the additional ways you mention are done by US and EU as well. In the US, there was a $7500 USD credit per EV car sold for many years and just beginning to wind down. That's just the direct subsidy in addition to other things like tax-free loans, emissions credits, etc. I'm pretty sure the EU has similar programs, but I am not as familiar with Europe. It's hard to imagine that ALL of China's aid, direct + indirect, could add up to more than $7500 USD pre car which is just the direct subsidy part in the US.
@@celanian8188 Yes, I've heard about an amount of $29 billion somewhere and agree that it seems not enough to worry about. What about solar panels, I don't know whether it is correct to attribute/spread some aid to panels produced (it is hard to argue here because I don't know any details about this industry, rules, volumes, conditions, market regulations and so on). I agree with you that the EU and US have their own programs of business support and that's why so many disputes exist about breaking WTO regulations (remember Boeing/Airbus, or how Europe bans import of agriculture from developing countries to protect its inefficient domestic farmers). But what I clearly realize is that it is impossible for car industry to have so much different production costs in different countries. According to the information from Internet, 57% of car price is attributable to raw materials and auto parts (I don't think than it is possible for China to use some Advanced/magic technologies to substantially decrease this amount in their cars not jeopardising the quality ). R&D costs make up about 16% of costs (here China can have lower costs just by stealing technologies from other manufactures, as it always did in prior years, but it is impossible to produce the car completely on stolen technologies, some R&D must still be taken). Remaining approx. 30% - labour costs, taxes, advertising. So even if we claim that China has extra cheap labour (which is not the case currently), similar quality Chinese car prices cannot vary substantially from Western/Japanese cars. Thus, as I see it, China has lowest costs everywhere: lower costs of raw materials (reduction in reliability, which is hard to notice instantly by a customer, lower costs of mining and processing - lower labour protection, higher pollution), lower costs of energy (high pollution), lower labour costs (lower protection, longer working day, 5 days of holidays a year) . All these elements can factor into lower car price. Thus, China can compete not thanks to technologies, but by harming workers, nature, quality. So, the question is whether Western world is ready to downgrade (labour protection, environment/pollution, quality, safety and reliability). I hope no, it is better to protect your achievements than degrade them. It will always be the temptation for people to earn a lot in your country, but spend little, buying cheap products from other countries, such a disbalance cannot last for a long time. That is why we are where we are now.
@@Viktor_Shcherbyna Since you seem to agree with me that subsidies aren't the reason that China is more competitive in EVs than US and EU, let's take your next points. When it comes to traditional ICE cars, China certainly doesn't have any comparative advantage and in fact lags far behind. However when it comes to EVs, China does have the advanced/magic advantages over the rest of the world. First and most obviously, China basically controls the rare earth, lithium, and graphite that make up the raw materials that go into EVs. So it's significantly cheaper for China to build batteries and electronics than anywhere else. China's infrastructure is also significantly better. BYD is located in Shenzhen where they are surrounded by all their suppliers. They can order any part and someone close by can get it to them same day very cheaply. So China has a massive advantage in the 57% raw materials and auto parts that you mention. For R&D, stealing tech can only let you catch up at best. To forge ahead you as China has, you need to plow billions of dollars in R&D. That's exactly what China has done as all the top car manufacturers such as BYD and CATL has done. By contrast, the US seems to not prioritize R&D and instead focus on share buybacks which give a short term boost to current shareholders but sets the company back in the long term. GM had $10B of stock buybacks just last year and has announced $6B this year so far. I don't think EU has the stock buyback issue, but their R&D seems mostly focused on ICE cars and not on EVs which are the future. As for labor costs, China is significantly cheaper than the US or EU, but that is not the reason that they are more competitive. After all, India's labor is even cheaper than China's and they have even less care for pollution, but India is nowhere close to being internationally competitive in cars. Labor is maybe 8% of the final cost of a car, so China's cheaper labor maybe makes up 3-5% cost advantage. Not enough to worry about or explain China's advantage which could be as much as 50% or more. I don't know enough about taxes and advertising costs in each country, especially industry specific ones, to comment on that part.
Who says Chin’s EV’s are built better ? If their EV’s are built anything like other products they sell to the West, they might look good at the start, but things will soon go wrong with them after a few years. I can’t see future vintage Chinese cars.
"Overcapacity" is another meaningless word coined by the US, much in the same vein as "rules based order". The reason why China can produce so cheaply is because of economies of scale, an efficient workforce, wide use of robotics and not being constrained by oil and gas sanctions. The spineless EU has to obey their overlord's command even though the US themselves had pretty much done the same thing through their Inflation Reduction Act. For decades, China made goods have pretty much being bought up all over the world because they are cheap, and now suddenly there's overcapacity???
The "rules based order" is particularly hilarious given they asked the UN for permission to invade Afghanistan, the UN said no, then they did it anyway. They are the hardly the best at following the "rules".
@@ryanwalters6184When German ICE cars took 50% of 26 million annual sales Chinese market, they never mentioned about " over capacity" or " market dumping", but now Chinese EVs take not even 5% of Europe or German market, they throw tantrum with " Over capacity" or "market dumping", what a hypocrite and double standard these Europeans and German are.
but the truth is that indeed it is, the only thing that changed is you were permitted to have access to our technology and have a voice online, even if it does not matter at all. be thankful a bit, its rude to be cheeky. deep down you know its true, it takes courage to admit it, be brave.
Finally, a European response. Europe has some market diversification in different sectors, but car manufacturing companies employ a significant part of the European population. We can't lose these jobs yet. These tariffs buy us time, but sooner or later, we’ll need to find other valuable markets to remain relevant on the global stage.
You are right, German car companies alone make 40 billion euros a year in the Chinese market. According to your logic, China's 1.4 billion people cannot lose their jobs and German car companies need to withdraw from China?😂😂😂
Truth is that China way ahead in EV than US, EU or rest of the world. US & EU (namingly) Germany & France automobile manufacturing is key sector of their economy so they do not welcome/allow Chinese EVs. China is already dominating rest of the world i. E other than US & EU and this trend will continue.
The tariff’s should be 40%. Here in Thailand, imported cars are taxed 50% and up… even the ones assembled here in Thailands “Special Economic zones". For example, a Ford Mustang (2024) that cost $50K in America, cost $135k in Thailand. I just looked it up
You accuse all Chinese products of being subsidized, try to think clearly, how can the economy grow if the country has to subsidize all products for other countries?
OK so that iphone made in China/India must also be treated the same way as it impacts on jobs taken away from EU and US employees. Oh wait none of those folks wants to do that kind of work for the low low pay.
Tarrifs only hurt the local customers and makes the local manufacturers complacent. What they need to do is subsidise their own industry and push them to be more effecient. In all of history tariffs never ended well for the country implementing the tariffs.
The minerals mined to make the batteries is not renewable and most batteries have a 10 year life span and then the battery is highly toxic. Please stop acting like a little child.
Then drive the same car for 30+ years, EV's are not saving the planet since they take way more resources to build and use fossil fuels to charge. Also, when is the last time you had a rechargeable battery last more than a few years?
@@oneshothunter9877horses are just like cows, their dung produces methane, and even their burbs aren't good for the environment. Quite a bid of carbon footprint.
China exports 15% of its production. Germany some 60%, plus makes some 30% of its global profit from China. Eu exports significant amounts of cars far more than 15%. Eu car makers are in for a terrible time. China will slap massive import taxes on ICE cars thereby stopping all EU and UK car exports to China, then Chinese people will be weaned of EU car makers in China. Looking forward to China slapping on big rptariffs on EU food exports, starting with pork, be great to see Danish, Spanish and French farmers go bankrupt from this. Eu is brain dead on this issue. What does the eu cal it when they subsides farming in the EU by the CAP.
The Eu was first but more importantly what would you call it? Cuz Those Chinese manufacturers are producing so many cars that they are actually selling them at a lose. Obviously china provides plenty of subsides for that in the short term but that leaves you with a question. Should you allow them to sell at your own detriment?
German manufacturers are shaking their legs as they know if they let those cars in they no longer have an edge against ev. They dominated so long with ICE car and were too late to adopt on the ev wagon. Now, the only thing they can do is find excuses and apply tariffs.
@@kreight_ Germans still export over $30B in cars to China shipped from Germany. They would be highly vulnerable if China put similar size tariffs on those cars. Which is why Germany did everything they could to stop the tariffs.
a touch screen makes a car cheaper not more expensive, tactile buttons are expensive. And software also doesn't make a car much more expensive. You program once and use it in all your cars.
@@buddy1155won't happen...VW cannot and will not make a 20k car...and even if they some how can that car won't be able to compete with a 10k made in china car.
@@imadkhaliq2941 I will not buy a 10K Chinese car but would buy a 20K VW. Don't forget that in 1950 you could buy a Beetle for only 30% of a yearly income. That would be about 20K today.
In addition to the government subsidies, Chinese labour is cheap and the Chinese regulations are lax with regards to the environment, safety and labour.
We were happy to buy cheap clothing, towels and trinkets from China then sell €6,000 LV bags and €50,000 Mercedes to China for decades. Now that higher value goods from China are in the conversation we slam tariffs on them. Let’s call a spade a spade, this is a protectionist move. Subsidies is a smokescreen. EU carmakers have enjoy subsidies for decades too. BYD made $4.1B in 2023 and enjoyed $3.7b in subsidies, in its entire history. Let’s not pretend the CCP writes a cheque every time Dieter buys an Atto to keep BYD alive
@@bugsygoo Cheap is relative. It is not as cheap as before. The inland is cheaper than the coastal. You may have a point if you are comparing the coastal to the other developing economies (depending on which one) but definitely not those from the European countries.
What is fair trade? When Western countries have a competitive advantage, they will talk about fair trade. But when China has a competitive advantage, it is called overcapacity. It's that simple.
McDonald's and Coca-Cola from the U.S., and cars from Germany are overcapacity, so why not talk about them, and why the U.S. keeps telling China to buy their agricultural products and soybeans, isn't that overcapacity?
The US government is not subsidising the sale of hamburgers and coke. What is your point? Coke and Burgers are popular because the people want them, not because they're cheaper than the local options.
@@_-kork-_what's your proof that China is subsidizing ev......the supply chains for China is superb......cheap energy, access to raw materials and cheap labor forces.....,and the eu? Germany has no access to raw materials, no cheap energy how can you make cheaper evs than china
@DutchFR1908-rj2jzChinese car manufacturers do not get money from the Chinese government. Their supply chain ecosystem of batteries, rare earths and raw materials is supported by the Chinese government. And guess what? European and American car manufacturers who manufacture their vehicles in China like Tesla also take advantage of this ecosystem to produce cars in China and export their cars around the world and make money. Furthermore, you forget that GM got bailed out from bankruptcy by the US government in 2008. Tesla gets billions of dollars in US government subsidies every year. The French government is a partial owner of Renault and Air Bus. Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet Boeing and basically all American industries in addition to the entire green energy industry gets subsidies from the US government. Listen to the state of the Union every year. It's just the American president laying our the amount of subsidies they are giving our to all sorts of industries and and companies. Without government money EU and US the farming industries would not be able to exist. Moreover here is what the West in particular the EU told China the world. "Climate change and rising temperatures are the biggest threat facing the human species." "China is the biggest polluter. China needs to do more to fight climate change." China said: Okay, so we will mass manufacturer reliable, affordable EVs that everyone can afford to help the world transition faster from internal combustion vehicles to EVs to massively reduce carbon emissions and fight climate change. Now these same EU and American officials are saying: You can't do that you are going to destroy our auto industries, and "also their oil companies".
If u cant stand the heat just get out of the kitchen. EU have sanctioned Russia with concerns on the issue of those decades of annexations. It has decoupled trade with China due to unfavorable business policies & restrictions set on cargo passage over South East Asia. You can cry a river all day long...
? China does not have extra costs, the tariff penalties are paid by the consumers in Europe so are designed to deter the Europeans buying and have no impact on the costs for the Chinese therefore maybe that basic fact should be cleared up as it is the opposite of what the expert stated!
The number one priority is to get EVs on the road and in the hands of the people who can least afford them. All these tariffs are going to do is prevent that.
Europe has every right to protect it's internal market. A race to the bottom is bad for everyone in Europe. And you do know that China does the same thing since decades, just not with cars as in this example.
I was seriously wondering about politicians, it's as if they make decisions without thinking about the consequences. Did they seriously expect China not to retaliate?
Farmers in Denmark, Netherlands, France and Spain will be hit hard and badly. The market in china will be taken quickly by Serbia, Russia and Australia.
No wonder the Chinese Premier was in Australia last week, he was probably after some pointers on how to survive a punitive European trade embargo that’s been inflicted for generations.
He was there to grant the Aussies their three wishes. No more tariffs on their wine, seafood and beef exports to China. He saved three of their industries at one go. Australia should be very thankful.
@@kamsunleong6648 Those commodities have moved on to other markets. In case you haven’t noticed, Australia has been trending away from the China trade for years. What China wanted it didn’t get, and that’s access to more green minerals from the world’s most reliable supplier.
@@seanlander9321wish and reality are different. enlighten me where else can aussie sell such amount of products with the price that Chinese could offer. in the contrary, Chinese could reach more mines from Russia and mid Asia as Russia is losing control of the pre Soviet area. AU government must be noticed and then decide to fix the relationship before too late
@@coroner3164 Get off the turps. The Russians are the most unreliable suppliers. China has learnt its lesson, and came back to give every concession the Australians asked for. Do catch up.
BYD is my choice. I do not want to pay any tariffs. I do not want to pay for over priced domestic autos. I do not care if the Chinese government is subsidizing the export price. The world is in a recession. I need a reasonably priced vehicle.
@@Vikingpoints the workers aren't making any real money, the greedy stockholders and executive staffs are making all the money in US auto manufacturing. And by the way, I've done plenty for my country. I've worked and paid taxes for over 40 years, never asked for handouts, served more than 10 years in the military (including 2 tours of duty in the middle east). I think I have earned the right to consider myself first at this point.
EU's trade deficit with China has already grown to 280 billion in 2023. How will you afford your next car when China has destroyed the last industry in Europe?
@@Vikingpointsthe only ones benefiting are the rich ceos. Europe has become richer but wages have been the same. I don’t mind billionaires losing a few millions. All these rules but no one cares about bringing back industries to europe. The companies will just move to another poor country so that they can exploit another nation (and this time not let them develop like china)
Constructive feedback: you have to fix your guests' audio situation. TH-camrs do it better. The vast majority of your guests seem to be using the inbuilt microphone of their phones or laptops and it's terrible. For this type of content, audio is much more important than video.
If Euro spend more in building their economy instead of being a US lap dog and wasting money in war, Euro is a much better state than now. Be accountable for own actions and stop blaming others.
fella the war in Ukraine is a rounding error of a decimal place for Europe's GDP, the more soviet kit that gets toasted the less Europe needs to invest in ground equipment for the next 30 years, paying for itself - sadly with the lives of Ukranians, but its not a financial problem.
The tariffs should only be equal to the Chinese subsidies to negate the artificially depressed prices. Otherwise, Europe needs to start asking themselves why they are globally uncompetitive.
Usually it is extremely difficult to calculate all these subsidies and express them in USD. China provided $3.7 billion as a direct government aid. Also there was additional support for local battery manufacturers and rebates for car buyers. Also, there was direct payments to virtually all of its listed companies, including wind, solar, and railway. What about the fact that Chinese people work in much worse environment, such as longer working day and much less holidays. So you should decide whether you are going to degrade your working conditions (to compete) or protect yourself? And moreover, you should take into account such possible ways of supporting as interest-free loans, tax vacations, different permissions for mining, emissions, pollution, transportation, workforce and so on, that can be easily granted by government in authoritarian countries.
@@andiy2521 not really. Just the principle of free trade which China has been blatantly violating for decades, e.g. artificially keeping the value of the Renminbi low, systematically conducting industrial espionage and IP theft, restricting the access to the Chinese domestic market, and now dumping their overproduction on global markets.
The problem is that EU is losing its competitiveness, and they want to keep their income advantage over Chinese. It is that simple. The EU can chose to corporate with those Chinese car makers, because the productivity has increased so much, so the life standard won't change a lot in EU, this is what free market should be, but who knows what those rich people and politicians are thinking. When those big car makers went to China for the last 3 decades, China never complaint anything but to work hard and catch up. It's not going to work for enjoying more, working less.
Chinese people do not want to do things to the end. Imagine the EU imposing tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles worth $3 billion. What if China retaliates by imposing equivalent tariffs on European cars worth $38 billion?
It's hard to imagine, because it is difficult, for example, to express all the subsidies in dollars. For example, imagine that average worker in China works 12 hours per day, don't have medical insurance and his holiday is 5 days a year. To compete "fairly" you must work in the same regime. Re you ready for that? And then imagine that China has additional huge amount of cash to subsidise its local manufactures in such ways as giving them permissions to extract natural resources almost for free, to freely pollute environment, to allow producers not to follow safety rules and so on. You will never be able to compete with such a manufacturer in your highly regulated "market" economy. And now imagine, that you are a politician, what will be your decision to protect your economy?
Wtf is overcapacity? ... in this logic no country should have capacity to export its products and only produce enough to supply its internal market ....
What is wrong with government subsidy to its industry; america gave big subsidies for its chip industry.. What is wrong with "overcapacity", its called efficiency, when german car sold to China n doing well, China never cry "overcapacity".. anglo world are really affraid of competition 😂😂 such a big LLLLL
Europe is a big market for china because of the opportunity to eliminate competition. It’s a price race to the bottom. In Australia it’s put local manufacturers out of business already. Nothing against competition but it’s just a reality waiting to happen in Europe whether soon or later unless you invest to innovate and reduce labour and operational costs which the usa is good at.
@@aight90 Volvo, Sweden, owned by Geely MG, UK, owned by SAIC MOTOR Great Wall Motors, Tula, Russia Stavropol Auto, Stavropol, Russia And during the next 3 years there will come at least 4 factories like BYD, Chery, Dongfeng, Great Wall Motors, SAIC
In 2023, China sold 30.1m new cars, while EU sold only 10.5m new cars. What EU car suffering now is to lose China market, rather than tariff Chinese ev cars.
Of course the Chinese will hit back.. Western Europe had never been a Fair in Trade.The market is turning out wards from the West. Global South markets are growing and Western Imperialism is declining in all aspects as Global Southers Wisdom , Education and Innovation are increasing.
I say we should bump them out of the WTO, remove subsidised international shipping, and place a 200% tariff on any industry with widespread use of -serf- labor.
@@mistervo8185they are cheaper for the European consumer because they are heavily subsidised by the Chinese government, this in turn gives them a competitive advantage which means they can advance their technology and increase their market share in car sales, in turn gradually hurting the Europeans as that then means that the automotive industry slowly moves away from the EU.
So, they were talking about "WTO rules", while not even considering the dispute mechanism in the WTO. In fact, they didn't attempt to engage with the WTO at all concerning Chinese EV production. The very fact that the E.U. chose to bypass the WTO means that they are working outside the WTO system, engaging in unilateral tariffs.
What I don't understand is why Chinese EVs are not cheap in Europe and why they have never been cheap - that's what the EU is saying is the problem right?
Chinese electric cars are *heavily subsidized* by many levels of Chinese government. Some people bought them, threw them away without driving, and still made profits. - That's why there are millions of new cars abandoned by owners across the country. And this is not an exaggeration.
They also use slave Labor for the materials used to produce their batteries/cars. Also, who knows how secure their data collection is when you have cameras always on in your garage.
Has China restricted the recipients of their subsidies? Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi, Tesla have all received these subsidies! Does the United States not subsidize its own related enterprises in Europe? You are avoiding reality
70% of cars produced in Germany are exported. 20% of cars produced in China are for export. But yet China has the overcapacity. If China subsidies their car industry, why can't Europe do the same. We all lose because cars are more expensive.
This has nothing to do with which car is better, but rather how the Chinese sponsored dirt cheap the factory's in order to make them cheaper so European car makers go broke and China can dominate the market. This is about China trying to create a monopoly. We abide by international rules while China evade or even ignores them. Just like their internet, they want to influence us but we are not allowed to influence them.
China was the leading country in terms of passenger car production in 2023. China continues to dominate the solar race, single-handedly producing more than 580 TWh of solar electricity in 2023.
China 🇨🇳 has refused repeated calls from the EU and US for negotiation of a *no-subsidy agreement.* The Chinese regime loves trade, but *not fair trade.*
Why they were ever allowed in the WTO in the first place is beyond me (as free trade is a requirement). Kick them out, also we should stop subsidising international shipping for them.
will it include the massive indirect subsidies through tax avoidance schemes like cayman, delaware, luxembourg,rish dutch sandwich, which are made to protected selected companies. not to mention the direct subsidies by the state to ford and tesla.china supported in the past consumers with discounts like the eu, but the eu cannot because energy is too expensive and a country in east euro needs billions. that is the real priblem.
EU government is free to give subsidies to their companies too. At least China has shown they're not greedy. Consumers are the ones that benefit from affordable prices in the end. Consumers don't care about how corporations feel
The fact that Europe is following in the footsteps of the U.S. in imposing tariffs on Chinese electric cars shows that they are not confident in their own country's electric cars. If they think that people in their own country will choose domestic electric cars, and that no one will buy Chinese electric cars, then why bother to impose tariffs?
This has nothing to do with which car is better, but rather how the Chinese sponsored dirt cheap the factory's in order to make them cheaper so European car makers go broke and China can dominate the market. This is about China trying to create a monopoly. We abide by international rules while China evade or even ignores them. Just like their internet, they want to influence us but we are not allowed to influence them.
Because the CCP is subsidising the sale of their cars to hurt the European economy. They support the war in Ukraine and plan to invade Taiwan. Why should we give them our money?
What happened to saving the environment, reduce carbon footprint, cut oil dependency? So much for green energy effort, its always in the end about the money.
The news is shrouded in political secrets, so why can't it be more direct and explain that the EU and the US are rejecting cheap Chinese EVs because of jobs and to protect their own companies (taxes); don't talk about overcapacity and excessive subsidies, every country has these problems.
Correction, the United States car market has been closed off to Chinese automakers because Chinese engineered and manufactured vehicles cannot pass our highway safety tests in the United States. Our highway safety tests are not stricter or better than European safety test, our requirements are just unique to the United States.. this is why Renault, Citroen, or Peugeot do not sell cars in the United States. They don't want you to comply with our safety regulations.
French wine, German cars, Spain pork, Italian fashion industry, Argentina beef, Swiss watch…. are all over capacity!
yes for centuries
Better if the police were German, the cooks were British, the engineers were Italian, the lovers were Swiss, and the administrators were French?
That is not the point, the point is that those companies are state subsidised and unfair competition.
@@buddy1155 Every company, also the European ones producing in China, is equally subsidised.
@@buddy1155 so what you are telling me is european and american companies did not get any subsidies and tax breaks in 1920s and after world war 2 (1950s)? i cant with western hypocricy..like you have build all of your giant companies with huge amount of unfair and unethical trade practices and now that your companies are already established, you wont let any company to compete with your so called legacy brands by simply blacklisting them or taxing them .
After decades of exporting most of its car production, Germany finally realized that over capacity can be a bad thing 😂
Putin & Kim Jong Un ...were paraded through Pyongyang ...in a Mercedes
@@senator1295 they have good taste
Lol@@senator1295
@@senator1295Made in China!
@@senator1295
Germany is proud of it too.
German trading policy in short , "Listen you Chinese we export our cars to China and you do not export your EV cars to Germany, Are you happy now?"
so you are proposing all of industry be taken over by a foreign country just because you believe in a free market? No government in their right mind will do that. If it's rational may be a completely different question all together. But local constituencies losing jobs and customers is certainly a thing that can end a politicians career faster than you can say "snap election!"
And market is saturated, the question is just what with. If it's from abroad you create a dependency. Remeber CoVid? Disrupted supply chains..? You want to keep your industry alive to some degree. Even if were not profitable on it's own.
@@jaorlowskibusinesses won't survive with restrictions. Wait till China hit back with restrictions EU company that depends on export will collapse too.
@@jaorlowskithe word believed in free market for decades even know it never favoured anyone apart from few individuals so Europe now need to believe in free market like it or not 😊 you can’t just say today is free market cause it favours me tomorrow now free market cause it doesn’t favour me anymore I ain’t this a hypocrisy ?
@@ka3axka370 sorry, but politicians never believe what they say. They say things because it favours them, not the other way around. If someone says "free market is great", it means they are at an advantage and want access to your market. And some people believe them because it lures them in with lower prices and competition and efficiency. And it often does, but often to the detriment of the workers or consumers, or national trade deficit, depending on the goods and volume.
@@jaorlowskiHypocrisy, double standards, German exceptionalism
Germany is the last country that can say that China's exports are overcapacity.
Germany's exports account for 40% of its GDP, far more than China's 20%.
German cars are in demand all over the world for their quality and design track record. Although not perfect, they are way above the average. Chinese cars are cheap because the CCP wants to hurt the European economy.
China will subsidence their manufacture and bankrupt our manufacture.. then sell whatever then want to us and obligate us to follow their rules.
wow, 40% 😮
Those are natural market conditions.
Your numbers are incorrect and it is not about over capacity, it is because those companies are subsidized by China. That is unfair competition.
I thought they were telling us we had to reduce our carbon footprint, now they don’t really want us to do that as cheaply and quickly as possible? It’s almost as of they have been lying to us all along and it’s just about making money😂
I hope you are being sarcastic because it was quite obvious long long long.... long long long.... long ago.
@@nicholasjacome341 It is possible it is real, it is also possible it’s not real. My point from the very start of this narrative is that, by definition, it is approaching impossible to model any complex system, including climate. Therefore when scientists confidently predict this or that, I know they are lying, therefore there must be an alternative motive. It saddens me that science has been corrupted by commercial interests.
I think its an combination of wanting people to reduce their carbon footprint with electric cars and wanting to protect their local car industry/peoples jobs. How can someone who makes a car in Germany compete against someone in China? Of course someone living in Germany gets paid more then someone in China.
there's a balance to be found.
If China is as politically savvy as its western counterpart, they should create its own carbon tax and tax US and EU heavily.
Hey, I thought Trump taught us that tariffs and trade wars were a bad thing! Remember how the EU was going crazy over Trump protecting American automakers from the EU’s tax payer funded auto industry? They called him crazy!
Now it’s okay right?
It’s not good for business so there’s validity behind them being “a bad thing” (unless you’re all in for government interventionism and against free market… but assuming you’re a conservative that’d be counter intuitive to being fiscally conservative, and free market philosophy), but it’s the right call given the geopolitical landscape with China and I think the EU is starting to see the risks being coupled to China economically.
Good point.
Nobody said tariff is bad thing , it just can’t have blanket tariffs to everything you have to pick and choose your fight.
Tariffs have been happening long before Trump. Varying opinions on them.
Like many things, you just needed someone to tell you how to think. Unfortunately.
@@soloyoni2000 Did you know the EU has Tarrifs on over 3000 different U.S. products? Seems like a blanket tariff to me.
The EU are hypocrites
So are the US
@@mqii its their master afterall
What else is new?
Why? China is subsidising companies, something that is illegal in western countries.
Companies can get huge fines in the western world, just think about Boeing and Airbus that both got money from governments.
If a company like VW gets money from the government a Chinese company can go to court and have them fined, the other way around is not possible.
It is just leveling the playing field.
So are the Chinese. Ask Australia.
And the looser is the consumer and the environment... Cheaper EV's is great for everyone except for greedy car manufacturers
Not when you're destroying the environment to make EV.
@@ryanwalters6184 The Chinese is polluting more than everyone else but they also do a lot to cut down emissions. If they hadn't made EV's and solar panels prices would have been double and maybe more than it is today.
People need cars and EV's are far better for the environment than any other car including production pollution
And great for public health and environment. WAY less toxic fumes leading to asthma, heart attack, etc.
@@ryanwalters6184 their CO2 emissions are quite low when looking on a per capita statistic, but that does not follow your talking point
It's like giving your neighbours ping pong balls as gifts, and leaving it to them to buy the table. Without the infrastructure, the cars are useless.
On a per car basis, the Chinese subsidies are trivial. BYD, the top Chinese EV car maker had subsidies of $3.7B USD over 4 years and they sell 3M cars a year. So the subsidies amount to about $300 a car. Just a rounding error when talking about car prices.
If the EU thinks subsidies are an issue, there's nothing stopping them from subsidizing their cars just like they already heavily subsidize their agricultural industry. In fact, I'm pretty sure existing EU auto subsidies are already well over $300 USD per car.
So why didn't you take into account the whole amount of subsidies?
$3.7 billion is only a direct government aid.
What about additional support for local battery manufacturers and rebates for car buyers, mentioned by Kiel Institute for the World Economy? I'm sure that only rebate is amounted to more that several thousands dollars per car.
Additionally, according to the Kiel Institute, China gave direct payments to virtually all of its listed companies, including wind, solar, and railway - putting its aid at as much as nine times higher than the amount large EU and OECD countries such as Germany and the US offer, the report said. Of cource this is not direct aid, but it can additionally help the producer to decrease costs.
And moreover, you can not take into account such possible ways of supporting as interest-free loans, tax vacations, different permissions for mining, emissions, pollution, transportation, workforce and so on, that can be easily granted by government in authoritarian countries. Of course, all these types of help is almost impossible to express in dollar amount per car and convey it to the public, but industry professionals and manufacturers can easily feel it when something is "wrong".
@@Viktor_Shcherbyna The figure I heard was $29B USD in subsidies over 13 years from 2009-2022 for batteries. Considering how many batteries China has sold over those 13 years, again it's a trivial amount per battery.
When you say that China gives 9 times as much support for wind and solar, you are admitting that the US and Germany are giving more subsidies per panel or turbine blade than China since China easily produces and sells far more than 9 times as many panels as US and Germany even if your 9 times figure is accurate..
All the additional ways you mention are done by US and EU as well. In the US, there was a $7500 USD credit per EV car sold for many years and just beginning to wind down. That's just the direct subsidy in addition to other things like tax-free loans, emissions credits, etc. I'm pretty sure the EU has similar programs, but I am not as familiar with Europe.
It's hard to imagine that ALL of China's aid, direct + indirect, could add up to more than $7500 USD pre car which is just the direct subsidy part in the US.
@@celanian8188 Yes, I've heard about an amount of $29 billion somewhere and agree that it seems not enough to worry about. What about solar panels, I don't know whether it is correct to attribute/spread some aid to panels produced (it is hard to argue here because I don't know any details about this industry, rules, volumes, conditions, market regulations and so on).
I agree with you that the EU and US have their own programs of business support and that's why so many disputes exist about breaking WTO regulations (remember Boeing/Airbus, or how Europe bans import of agriculture from developing countries to protect its inefficient domestic farmers). But what I clearly realize is that it is impossible for car industry to have so much different production costs in different countries. According to the information from Internet, 57% of car price is attributable to raw materials and auto parts (I don't think than it is possible for China to use some Advanced/magic technologies to substantially decrease this amount in their cars not jeopardising the quality ). R&D costs make up about 16% of costs (here China can have lower costs just by stealing technologies from other manufactures, as it always did in prior years, but it is impossible to produce the car completely on stolen technologies, some R&D must still be taken). Remaining approx. 30% - labour costs, taxes, advertising. So even if we claim that China has extra cheap labour (which is not the case currently), similar quality Chinese car prices cannot vary substantially from Western/Japanese cars. Thus, as I see it, China has lowest costs everywhere: lower costs of raw materials (reduction in reliability, which is hard to notice instantly by a customer, lower costs of mining and processing - lower labour protection, higher pollution), lower costs of energy (high pollution), lower labour costs (lower protection, longer working day, 5 days of holidays a year) . All these elements can factor into lower car price. Thus, China can compete not thanks to technologies, but by harming workers, nature, quality. So, the question is whether Western world is ready to downgrade (labour protection, environment/pollution, quality, safety and reliability). I hope no, it is better to protect your achievements than degrade them. It will always be the temptation for people to earn a lot in your country, but spend little, buying cheap products from other countries, such a disbalance cannot last for a long time. That is why we are where we are now.
@@Viktor_Shcherbyna Since you seem to agree with me that subsidies aren't the reason that China is more competitive in EVs than US and EU, let's take your next points.
When it comes to traditional ICE cars, China certainly doesn't have any comparative advantage and in fact lags far behind. However when it comes to EVs, China does have the advanced/magic advantages over the rest of the world.
First and most obviously, China basically controls the rare earth, lithium, and graphite that make up the raw materials that go into EVs. So it's significantly cheaper for China to build batteries and electronics than anywhere else. China's infrastructure is also significantly better. BYD is located in Shenzhen where they are surrounded by all their suppliers. They can order any part and someone close by can get it to them same day very cheaply. So China has a massive advantage in the 57% raw materials and auto parts that you mention.
For R&D, stealing tech can only let you catch up at best. To forge ahead you as China has, you need to plow billions of dollars in R&D. That's exactly what China has done as all the top car manufacturers such as BYD and CATL has done. By contrast, the US seems to not prioritize R&D and instead focus on share buybacks which give a short term boost to current shareholders but sets the company back in the long term. GM had $10B of stock buybacks just last year and has announced $6B this year so far. I don't think EU has the stock buyback issue, but their R&D seems mostly focused on ICE cars and not on EVs which are the future.
As for labor costs, China is significantly cheaper than the US or EU, but that is not the reason that they are more competitive. After all, India's labor is even cheaper than China's and they have even less care for pollution, but India is nowhere close to being internationally competitive in cars. Labor is maybe 8% of the final cost of a car, so China's cheaper labor maybe makes up 3-5% cost advantage. Not enough to worry about or explain China's advantage which could be as much as 50% or more. I don't know enough about taxes and advertising costs in each country, especially industry specific ones, to comment on that part.
Ban all European luxury goods would be a good starting point
Chocolate?
@@habibikebabtheiii2037 what is the big deal?
And why would that be good? China is openly supporting Russia's destabilizing war. What did the Chinese expect?
Everything but cheese. Cheese is awesome
Over capacity??? Germany exports 70% of its cars. Also built cars in low labour cost Eastern european countries
@@orionbetelgeuse1937 so why the german government do not let german buy Chinese cars?
@@orionbetelgeuse1937 It used to be good. German car sales in China are decreasing year by year. It takes time for a brand to disappear from a market.
The point is that the CCP subsides the car makers.
@@orionbetelgeuse1937same question to you why the European buy Chinese EV car if they are not good?
@@NagaYo-hr9dw Where do Europeans buy Chinese cars? I don’t see any lol.
save the world, get rid of your diesel car and go electric. But wait!!! Not with a Chinese car!!! This is not fair!!!
Bottom line: China's EV's are built better and are generally less expensive too.
Indeed, the Chinese should be buying them.
@@MROJPCthey do. Chinese consumes 80-85% of cars produced. Germans on the other hand buys only 30% of their car production.
...another word for Quality !
Who says Chin’s EV’s are built better ? If their EV’s are built anything like other products they sell to the West, they might look good at the start, but things will soon go wrong with them after a few years. I can’t see future vintage Chinese cars.
@@bazza3643 if this is true, there would be no incentives for Europe to block their products.
"Overcapacity" is another meaningless word coined by the US, much in the same vein as "rules based order". The reason why China can produce so cheaply is because of economies of scale, an efficient workforce, wide use of robotics and not being constrained by oil and gas sanctions. The spineless EU has to obey their overlord's command even though the US themselves had pretty much done the same thing through their Inflation Reduction Act. For decades, China made goods have pretty much being bought up all over the world because they are cheap, and now suddenly there's overcapacity???
Why is China so dependent on export? Only poor, weak, insecure dictatorships are.
The "rules based order" is particularly hilarious given they asked the UN for permission to invade Afghanistan, the UN said no, then they did it anyway. They are the hardly the best at following the "rules".
@@castheeuwes1085
So Germany is a dictatorship?
There should be a decent journalist who calls out the incompetence and hypocrisy of the EU
China : Green technology overcapacity
USA: Dollars printing overcapacity
Europe: Hypocrite and double standard overcapacity
China: crying over capacity.
BEVs are not green technology.
@@ryanwalters6184When German ICE cars took 50% of 26 million annual sales Chinese market, they never mentioned about " over capacity" or " market dumping", but now Chinese EVs take not even 5% of Europe or German market, they throw tantrum with " Over capacity" or "market dumping", what a hypocrite and double standard these Europeans and German are.
The world is not just EUROPE and America. You can go ahead to isolate yourselves.
Putin & Kim Jong Un ...were paraded through Pyongyang ...in a Mercedes
but the truth is that indeed it is, the only thing that changed is you were permitted to have access to our technology and have a voice online, even if it does not matter at all. be thankful a bit, its rude to be cheeky. deep down you know its true, it takes courage to admit it, be brave.
Alrite. So no need for Chinese exports to the EU and US then.
And you telling this on a media platform created by these countries lol!
@@sebastiaanl9876 the German government does not own DW. Quite different from RT, CGTN and so on.
Finally, a European response. Europe has some market diversification in different sectors, but car manufacturing companies employ a significant part of the European population. We can't lose these jobs yet. These tariffs buy us time, but sooner or later, we’ll need to find other valuable markets to remain relevant on the global stage.
So is not subsidized issues, is the loser needs more time to prepare for fight with new EV cars.
You are right, German car companies alone make 40 billion euros a year in the Chinese market. According to your logic, China's 1.4 billion people cannot lose their jobs and German car companies need to withdraw from China?😂😂😂
@@uWr.Ppel112 Xiaomi in need to people to make their SU7.
Another double standard for EU. Reduce the carbon footprint by encourage people to keep buying combustion engine car instead EV car.
BS...
You think we don't produce E-cars in Europe???
Are you living under a rock?
Another nail in the coffin of the EU.
China is failing
So scary !
LMAO
Been hearing this line since 1980
The EU defending itself against predatory Chinese trade practices is not only understandable but necessary.
Eu will be oversized North Korea
Truth is that China way ahead in EV than US, EU or rest of the world. US & EU (namingly) Germany & France automobile manufacturing is key sector of their economy so they do not welcome/allow Chinese EVs. China is already dominating rest of the world i. E other than US & EU and this trend will continue.
Which market is bigger European or Chinese? One thing i know is Europe needs Chinese market more than China needs European market 😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I'm fine with protecting the EU Automakers with the tariffs, but then also please stop giving them subsidies with our tax money.
The tariff’s should be 40%. Here in Thailand, imported cars are taxed 50% and up… even the ones assembled here in Thailands “Special Economic zones".
For example, a Ford Mustang (2024) that cost $50K in America, cost $135k in Thailand. I just looked it up
You accuse all Chinese products of being subsidized, try to think clearly, how can the economy grow if the country has to subsidize all products for other countries?
OK so that iphone made in China/India must also be treated the same way as it impacts on jobs taken away from EU and US employees. Oh wait none of those folks wants to do that kind of work for the low low pay.
EU and USA have overcapacity of sour grapes.
Tarrifs only hurt the local customers and makes the local manufacturers complacent.
What they need to do is subsidise their own industry and push them to be more effecient.
In all of history tariffs never ended well for the country implementing the tariffs.
They are too bankrupt to come up with the money, so they collect money instead
Overcapacity in Europe is putting pressure on jobs in China, so China should increase tariffs by 100% on products from the EU.
This was an irresponsible and destructive decision. The EU is at risk of falling down with these terrible protectionist measures.
What about saving the planet and stopping global warming 🤔
The minerals mined to make the batteries is not renewable and most batteries have a 10 year life span and then the battery is highly toxic. Please stop acting like a little child.
Then drive the same car for 30+ years, EV's are not saving the planet since they take way more resources to build and use fossil fuels to charge. Also, when is the last time you had a rechargeable battery last more than a few years?
Should have stayed with the horses.
With good care they last more than 15 years. 🙃
@@oneshothunter9877horses are just like cows, their dung produces methane, and even their burbs aren't good for the environment. Quite a bid of carbon footprint.
@@oneshothunter9877 or TRAINS
The US firstly said the word "OVERCAPACITY",
then Europe followed, overcapacity, overcapacity, overcapacity...... everyday
the term was used by the EU first...
China exports 15% of its production.
Germany some 60%, plus makes some 30% of its global profit from China.
Eu exports significant amounts of cars far more than 15%.
Eu car makers are in for a terrible time.
China will slap massive import taxes on ICE cars thereby stopping all EU and UK car exports to China, then Chinese people will be weaned of EU car makers in China.
Looking forward to China slapping on big rptariffs on EU food exports, starting with pork, be great to see Danish, Spanish and French farmers go bankrupt from this.
Eu is brain dead on this issue.
What does the eu cal it when they subsides farming in the EU by the CAP.
vassals have no opinion for themselves, it is always must be aline with the master thus us
Puppets always follow the actions of their master
The Eu was first but more importantly what would you call it? Cuz Those Chinese manufacturers are producing so many cars that they are actually selling them at a lose. Obviously china provides plenty of subsides for that in the short term but that leaves you with a question. Should you allow them to sell at your own detriment?
If China retaliate then ban German CAR.....
German manufacturers are shaking their legs as they know if they let those cars in they no longer have an edge against ev. They dominated so long with ICE car and were too late to adopt on the ev wagon. Now, the only thing they can do is find excuses and apply tariffs.
German cars sold in China are produced in China… this is not the case for the EVs China wants to sell in the EU
@@mqii It is not only that but China owns 99% of the ion in the world while usa owns 1%.
Chinese leadership is far smarter, they will not do anything like that "Banning"
@@kreight_ Germans still export over $30B in cars to China shipped from Germany. They would be highly vulnerable if China put similar size tariffs on those cars. Which is why Germany did everything they could to stop the tariffs.
what over capacity? isn't trade? why other countries selling is not over capaciry?
How about vw group make cheap cars again?! A decent EV starts at 40k€. Just replace the engine and forget the damn touchscreen gimmicks
VW is working on a 20K EV.
a touch screen makes a car cheaper not more expensive, tactile buttons are expensive.
And software also doesn't make a car much more expensive. You program once and use it in all your cars.
@@buddy1155won't happen...VW cannot and will not make a 20k car...and even if they some how can that car won't be able to compete with a 10k made in china car.
I 100% agree with this statement, most people just want a vehicle to get them from point A to point B. Most folks don't want the extra gimmicks.
@@imadkhaliq2941 I will not buy a 10K Chinese car but would buy a 20K VW.
Don't forget that in 1950 you could buy a Beetle for only 30% of a yearly income.
That would be about 20K today.
In addition to the government subsidies, Chinese labour is cheap and the Chinese regulations are lax with regards to the environment, safety and labour.
China's EV automation level is higher than German...
We were happy to buy cheap clothing, towels and trinkets from China then sell €6,000 LV bags and €50,000 Mercedes to China for decades. Now that higher value goods from China are in the conversation we slam tariffs on them. Let’s call a spade a spade, this is a protectionist move.
Subsidies is a smokescreen. EU carmakers have enjoy subsidies for decades too. BYD made $4.1B in 2023 and enjoyed $3.7b in subsidies, in its entire history. Let’s not pretend the CCP writes a cheque every time Dieter buys an Atto to keep BYD alive
@@rayl2505 Maybe be so but that alone can't account for the price difference.
Chinese labour is not cheap anymore. But you are right about the rest.
@@bugsygoo Cheap is relative. It is not as cheap as before. The inland is cheaper than the coastal. You may have a point if you are comparing the coastal to the other developing economies (depending on which one) but definitely not those from the European countries.
If EU and US makes tariffs, China should act with reciprocity the same as I did with bullshiter, you call me a bullshiter I call you the same.
That's good, on the long term this wil benefit EU.
@@aight90highly unlikely as 90% of our products are made in china
What is fair trade? When Western countries have a competitive advantage, they will talk about fair trade. But when China has a competitive advantage, it is called overcapacity. It's that simple.
McDonald's and Coca-Cola from the U.S., and cars from Germany are overcapacity, so why not talk about them,
and why the U.S. keeps telling China to buy their agricultural products and soybeans, isn't that overcapacity?
Coca cola is one that really overcapacity and it's harmful to human health.
The US government is not subsidising the sale of hamburgers and coke. What is your point? Coke and Burgers are popular because the people want them, not because they're cheaper than the local options.
@@_-kork-_what's your proof that China is subsidizing ev......the supply chains for China is superb......cheap energy, access to raw materials and cheap labor forces.....,and the eu? Germany has no access to raw materials, no cheap energy how can you make cheaper evs than china
@DutchFR1908-rj2jzChinese car manufacturers do not get money from the Chinese government.
Their supply chain ecosystem of batteries, rare earths and raw materials is supported by the Chinese government.
And guess what? European and American car manufacturers who manufacture their vehicles in China like Tesla also take advantage of this ecosystem to produce cars in China and export their cars around the world and make money.
Furthermore, you forget that GM got bailed out from bankruptcy by the US government in 2008.
Tesla gets billions of dollars in US government subsidies every year.
The French government is a partial owner of Renault and Air Bus.
Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet Boeing and basically all American industries in addition to the entire green energy industry gets subsidies from the US government.
Listen to the state of the Union every year. It's just the American president laying our the amount of subsidies they are giving our to all sorts of industries and and companies.
Without government money EU and US the farming industries would not be able to exist.
Moreover here is what the West in particular the EU told China the world.
"Climate change and rising temperatures are the biggest threat facing the human species."
"China is the biggest polluter. China needs to do more to fight climate change."
China said: Okay, so we will mass manufacturer reliable, affordable EVs that everyone can afford to help the world transition faster from internal combustion vehicles to EVs to massively reduce carbon emissions and fight climate change.
Now these same EU and American officials are saying:
You can't do that you are going to destroy our auto industries, and "also their oil companies".
The biggest overcapacity is EU and USA printing debt.
You guys know how many European cars were sold to China? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
EU = hypocrites 🤑🤣😂
If u cant stand the heat just get out of the kitchen. EU have sanctioned Russia with concerns on the issue of those decades of annexations. It has decoupled trade with China due to unfavorable business policies & restrictions set on cargo passage over South East Asia. You can cry a river all day long...
Agree 😂
emirzarfan
Stay out of Europe!
@@olivergarcia2304 ✌️❤️🇲🇾
US's dogs
competitions sucks huh
Yup. The Germans are pissing their pants now that they see competition is real. Just like they laughed at Tesla and now they're being beat by them
The west just keeps on coming with words.
“We don’t want the world to be saved unless it is us”
? China does not have extra costs, the tariff penalties are paid by the consumers in Europe so are designed to deter the Europeans buying and have no impact on the costs for the Chinese therefore maybe that basic fact should be cleared up as it is the opposite of what the expert stated!
The number one priority is to get EVs on the road and in the hands of the people who can least afford them. All these tariffs are going to do is prevent that.
European EV even with 25% or 55% tax on Chinese EV still won't be affordable for ordinary people anyway.
Fired the first shot and accuses the other side of "risking a trade war" if it retaliates. Grow a ball, Brussels.
Europe has every right to protect it's internal market. A race to the bottom is bad for everyone in Europe. And you do know that China does the same thing since decades, just not with cars as in this example.
You tariff me, I tariff you. It seems fair to me,.😂😂😂😂
Cope harder 🤣🤣🤣
And europeans think China won't aswer ?????? You guys are crazy....!!!
I was seriously wondering about politicians, it's as if they make decisions without thinking about the consequences. Did they seriously expect China not to retaliate?
Farmers in Denmark, Netherlands, France and Spain will be hit hard and badly. The market in china will be taken quickly by Serbia, Russia and Australia.
Don't do business with pirates. Comes from moral and good parenting, not dependant on money
No wonder the Chinese Premier was in Australia last week, he was probably after some pointers on how to survive a punitive European trade embargo that’s been inflicted for generations.
He was there to grant the Aussies their three wishes. No more tariffs on their wine, seafood and beef exports to China. He saved three of their industries at one go. Australia should be very thankful.
@@kamsunleong6648 Those commodities have moved on to other markets. In case you haven’t noticed, Australia has been trending away from the China trade for years. What China wanted it didn’t get, and that’s access to more green minerals from the world’s most reliable supplier.
He's there to tell EU China has lots of other markets. Who gives a hoot about EU. In a trade war, China has lots more arsenal than EU has.
@@seanlander9321wish and reality are different. enlighten me where else can aussie sell such amount of products with the price that Chinese could offer. in the contrary, Chinese could reach more mines from Russia and mid Asia as Russia is losing control of the pre Soviet area. AU government must be noticed and then decide to fix the relationship before too late
@@coroner3164 Get off the turps. The Russians are the most unreliable suppliers.
China has learnt its lesson, and came back to give every concession the Australians asked for. Do catch up.
BYD is my choice. I do not want to pay any tariffs. I do not want to pay for over priced domestic autos. I do not care if the Chinese government is subsidizing the export price. The world is in a recession. I need a reasonably priced vehicle.
Way to think about yourself and not the workers in your country.
@@Vikingpoints the workers aren't making any real money, the greedy stockholders and executive staffs are making all the money in US auto manufacturing. And by the way, I've done plenty for my country. I've worked and paid taxes for over 40 years, never asked for handouts, served more than 10 years in the military (including 2 tours of duty in the middle east). I think I have earned the right to consider myself first at this point.
EU's trade deficit with China has already grown to 280 billion in 2023. How will you afford your next car when China has destroyed the last industry in Europe?
Move to China, you won't need a car, you can live straight in the factory complex.
@@Vikingpointsthe only ones benefiting are the rich ceos. Europe has become richer but wages have been the same. I don’t mind billionaires losing a few millions.
All these rules but no one cares about bringing back industries to europe. The companies will just move to another poor country so that they can exploit another nation (and this time not let them develop like china)
It just shows the EU obeyed their King the US Israel 😂😂
Nah we won’t bot account
Boooo US EU, yall no longer the world leader of nothing
ya'll don't live in Texas XiBi
@@senator1295 and yall don’t live in reality. Wink wink
Cars from Eurpoe: BMW, Benz, VW, Audit......, are they overproduction?
European do not want dirt cheap cars, it must be around the minimum $30k+ range for low end models.
Exactly!!! Europeans must pay more for gas and oil, and now EVs, as the American Lords of Europe have commanded.
Yeah, and the Chinese EVs do not self ignite, no thanks, I can bear the climate change instead buying cheap HQ Chinese products...
Is anyone forcing you to buy?
@@AlexandarIvanov-uz2slyou think you are significant lol
@@AlexandarIvanov-uz2slyou know nothing about EV's let alone Chinese EV's. Stop embarrassing yourself. Do research.
seems like EUROPE is running from competition. they have enjoyed the ride for long. Its time to go off teh ride and start working hard to compete.
There's no competition when it comes to cars. Japanese, American and European cars are superior. Remember the Lada disaster? 😂😂😂
Europeans are not working 996 😂
@@TheTwangKings Edit: They *were* superior. Get up to date
@@John_Doe448 Chinese cars superior? Yes, if you are riding donkey carts 😀😀😀😀
@@TheTwangKings chinese Electric car are much better now, they arr main supplier of tesla batteries. Its BYD which supplies battery To them
Constructive feedback: you have to fix your guests' audio situation. TH-camrs do it better. The vast majority of your guests seem to be using the inbuilt microphone of their phones or laptops and it's terrible. For this type of content, audio is much more important than video.
If Euro spend more in building their economy instead of being a US lap dog and wasting money in war, Euro is a much better state than now.
Be accountable for own actions and stop blaming others.
fella the war in Ukraine is a rounding error of a decimal place for Europe's GDP, the more soviet kit that gets toasted the less Europe needs to invest in ground equipment for the next 30 years, paying for itself - sadly with the lives of Ukranians, but its not a financial problem.
@@edc1569cheap energy, dude! cheap energy!
There's only in Hungary a Chinese BYD factory i think and one build in Spain.
The tariffs should only be equal to the Chinese subsidies to negate the artificially depressed prices. Otherwise, Europe needs to start asking themselves why they are globally uncompetitive.
Usually it is extremely difficult to calculate all these subsidies and express them in USD. China provided $3.7 billion as a direct government aid. Also there was additional support for local battery manufacturers and rebates for car buyers. Also, there was direct payments to virtually all of its listed companies, including wind, solar, and railway. What about the fact that Chinese people work in much worse environment, such as longer working day and much less holidays. So you should decide whether you are going to degrade your working conditions (to compete) or protect yourself?
And moreover, you should take into account such possible ways of supporting as interest-free loans, tax vacations, different permissions for mining, emissions, pollution, transportation, workforce and so on, that can be easily granted by government in authoritarian countries.
@@Viktor_ShcherbynaHypocrisy, double standards, German exceptionalism
@@andiy2521 not really. Just the principle of free trade which China has been blatantly violating for decades, e.g. artificially keeping the value of the Renminbi low, systematically conducting industrial espionage and IP theft, restricting the access to the Chinese domestic market, and now dumping their overproduction on global markets.
The supply chain is better in China and labour cost is lower. There is no way EU can compete fairly against China when it comes to EVs.
The problem is that EU is losing its competitiveness, and they want to keep their income advantage over Chinese. It is that simple. The EU can chose to corporate with those Chinese car makers, because the productivity has increased so much, so the life standard won't change a lot in EU, this is what free market should be, but who knows what those rich people and politicians are thinking.
When those big car makers went to China for the last 3 decades, China never complaint anything but to work hard and catch up. It's not going to work for enjoying more, working less.
With practically the whole Europe and UK are in recession after the Ukraine war and post Covid, who is suffering from over capacity ?
Chinese people do not want to do things to the end. Imagine the EU imposing tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles worth $3 billion. What if China retaliates by imposing equivalent tariffs on European cars worth $38 billion?
It's hard to imagine, because it is difficult, for example, to express all the subsidies in dollars. For example, imagine that average worker in China works 12 hours per day, don't have medical insurance and his holiday is 5 days a year. To compete "fairly" you must work in the same regime. Re you ready for that? And then imagine that China has additional huge amount of cash to subsidise its local manufactures in such ways as giving them permissions to extract natural resources almost for free, to freely pollute environment, to allow producers not to follow safety rules and so on. You will never be able to compete with such a manufacturer in your highly regulated "market" economy. And now imagine, that you are a politician, what will be your decision to protect your economy?
@@Viktor_Shcherbyna talk nonsense
Wtf is overcapacity? ... in this logic no country should have capacity to export its products and only produce enough to supply its internal market ....
What is wrong with government subsidy to its industry; america gave big subsidies for its chip industry..
What is wrong with "overcapacity", its called efficiency, when german car sold to China n doing well, China never cry "overcapacity".. anglo world are really affraid of competition 😂😂 such a big LLLLL
Europe is a big market for china because of the opportunity to eliminate competition. It’s a price race to the bottom. In Australia it’s put local manufacturers out of business already. Nothing against competition but it’s just a reality waiting to happen in Europe whether soon or later unless you invest to innovate and reduce labour and operational costs which the usa is good at.
Completely fair. If China wants to sell EVs here they have to build cars in European soil. Just like China required European car manufacturers to do.
They already have factories in Europe!
@@claus-not-santano they do bot
@@aight90 Volvo, Sweden, owned by Geely
MG, UK, owned by SAIC MOTOR
Great Wall Motors, Tula, Russia
Stavropol Auto, Stavropol, Russia
And during the next 3 years there will come at least 4 factories like BYD, Chery, Dongfeng, Great Wall Motors, SAIC
China should impose high import duty on European products, include cars, wine, pork, branded products, diary products...
In 2023, China sold 30.1m new cars, while EU sold only 10.5m new cars.
What EU car suffering now is to lose China market, rather than tariff Chinese ev cars.
do you speak Xi?
0:40 surprised you didn’t confirm whether he’s called Greg or Sebastian before going to air
Of course the Chinese will hit back.. Western Europe had never been a Fair in Trade.The market is turning out wards from the West. Global South markets are growing and Western Imperialism is declining in all aspects as Global Southers Wisdom , Education and Innovation are increasing.
brake? less than a speed bump at best.
I say we should bump them out of the WTO, remove subsidised international shipping, and place a 200% tariff on any industry with widespread use of -serf- labor.
Apply that to western companies that outsourced the jobs to China too...
Germany is an integral part of the WTO!
Why bump them out?
Didnt we want to propel the use of electeic cars....
Only if you pay 3x more for a German EV that's arguably worse
How exactly the state subsidies work?
So the problem is their electric vehicles are too cheap?
Subsidies.
Lots.
So it's cheaper for the European consumers, is that what I'm hearing?
@@mistervo8185
No.
Yes.
Most important, it seems, is that those subsidies are unfair competition and lastly it will cost jobs in Europe.
@@mistervo8185they are cheaper for the European consumer because they are heavily subsidised by the Chinese government, this in turn gives them a competitive advantage which means they can advance their technology and increase their market share in car sales, in turn gradually hurting the Europeans as that then means that the automotive industry slowly moves away from the EU.
@oneshothunter9877 European car manufacturers don't receive subsides??
I wouldn't be suprised if SAIC starts manufacturing their cars in the UK or EU really soon
So, they were talking about "WTO rules", while not even considering the dispute mechanism in the WTO. In fact, they didn't attempt to engage with the WTO at all concerning Chinese EV production. The very fact that the E.U. chose to bypass the WTO means that they are working outside the WTO system, engaging in unilateral tariffs.
High quality and integrity have been the hallmarks of German manufactured goods since..forever. I hope it will always be so.
Diesel cheating is now "intefrity"?
Considering what china did to Australia, its good to see the shoe is on the other foot
😅
Trades exist because there are overcapacities on local levels, numerous of them.
So why are they sponsoring the Euro Cup?
Desperation. They think that it will popularize their brand and save them from the tariffs somehow. It won't.
They got money 💰
Every time I see those BYD ads, I lose a little bit more faith in humanity
@@v1das007 because the Europe spend most of theirs money on the Ukraine war.
@@yuugen999 Since when a Chinese green flog from Taiwan has humanity?😂😂😂
What I don't understand is why Chinese EVs are not cheap in Europe and why they have never been cheap - that's what the EU is saying is the problem right?
Chinese electric cars are *heavily subsidized* by many levels of Chinese government. Some people bought them, threw them away without driving, and still made profits.
- That's why there are millions of new cars abandoned by owners across the country.
And this is not an exaggeration.
They also use slave Labor for the materials used to produce their batteries/cars.
Also, who knows how secure their data collection is when you have cameras always on in your garage.
I want the Chinese government to subsidize my new BYD. I cannot afford a non-subsidized auto.
@@bydarkwaters2055 , That thread head is a paid troll.
The same countries that give china development assistance are now crying
I don´t even know why i should blame china at this point
Just stop it
Has China restricted the recipients of their subsidies? Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi, Tesla have all received these subsidies! Does the United States not subsidize its own related enterprises in Europe? You are avoiding reality
70% of cars produced in Germany are exported. 20% of cars produced in China are for export. But yet China has the overcapacity. If China subsidies their car industry, why can't Europe do the same. We all lose because cars are more expensive.
If the west can not can compete.
This has nothing to do with which car is better, but rather how the Chinese sponsored dirt cheap the factory's in order to make them cheaper so European car makers go broke and China can dominate the market. This is about China trying to create a monopoly. We abide by international rules while China evade or even ignores them. Just like their internet, they want to influence us but we are not allowed to influence them.
We don't subsidise our trade, or use slavery to produce our goods.
Of course we can't compete, that is the objective of a trade war.
Lol overcapacity, means the cars are better😂
China should consider lodging a complaint to the WTO if it thinks it was hard done by
China can just hit back. Did EU complain to the WTO? Pathetic hypocrites!
对等加完税，欧盟也可以呀，看欧盟农业补贴多，还是中国的汽车补贴多，呵呵
Beijing exported 5 million cars last year. What makes you think they’re gonna realize 15:07 “this battle has been lost”?
China was the leading country in terms of passenger car production in 2023. China continues to dominate the solar race, single-handedly producing more than 580 TWh of solar electricity in 2023.
so what? just waste resources, over production and exploit Chinese poor labours!
The market share of Chinese cars was 8% in the EU last year. What this has to do with solar panels I can't grasp.
@@liebfraumilch3518you were ok when it was American and European companies getting the benefit of that cheap labor and weak regulations
Building solar with one hand and coal power with another. And then they call us the hypocrites.
They call it freedom of trade.
Wumaos not happy with the news from the comments 😅
Do NOG forget to mention US is applying 100-percent tariffs in China's EV! WHY can EU do the same?
what does it achieve, to make the dump people happy?
And suddenly capitalism and free markets are a bad thing. Seriously the EU should at least be upfront with their hypocrisy
Because EU are selling cars in large scale to China at the same time.
China 🇨🇳 has refused repeated calls from the EU and US for negotiation of a *no-subsidy agreement.*
The Chinese regime loves trade, but *not fair trade.*
Why they were ever allowed in the WTO in the first place is beyond me (as free trade is a requirement).
Kick them out, also we should stop subsidising international shipping for them.
Chinese cars are better than Tesla. Subsidies are simply an excuse. Tesla gets loads of subsidies. I don't dee Tesla getting banned.
will it include the massive indirect subsidies through tax avoidance schemes like cayman, delaware, luxembourg,rish dutch sandwich, which are made to protected selected companies. not to mention the direct subsidies by the state to ford and tesla.china supported in the past consumers with discounts like the eu, but the eu cannot because energy is too expensive and a country in east euro needs billions. that is the real priblem.
The US subsidizes its own EV market too
EU government is free to give subsidies to their companies too. At least China has shown they're not greedy. Consumers are the ones that benefit from affordable prices in the end. Consumers don't care about how corporations feel
if china retaliation, west call "with anger". But if Europe retaliation, west call " base on WTO rule".
The fact that Europe is following in the footsteps of the U.S. in imposing tariffs on Chinese electric cars shows that they are not confident in their own country's electric cars.
If they think that people in their own country will choose domestic electric cars, and that no one will buy Chinese electric cars, then why bother to impose tariffs?
This has nothing to do with which car is better, but rather how the Chinese sponsored dirt cheap the factory's in order to make them cheaper so European car makers go broke and China can dominate the market. This is about China trying to create a monopoly. We abide by international rules while China evade or even ignores them. Just like their internet, they want to influence us but we are not allowed to influence them.
Because the CCP is subsidising the sale of their cars to hurt the European economy. They support the war in Ukraine and plan to invade Taiwan. Why should we give them our money?
"Look, EVs are so expensive. I guess we just have to keep building more ICE cars instead..."
What happened to saving the environment, reduce carbon footprint, cut oil dependency? So much for green energy effort, its always in the end about the money.
Who in Hades wants a Chinese exploding EV? Or even a Tesla Cybertruck? I prefer my old Diesel, but were I ever to go EV I'd go effing Euro or Japan.
Japan doesn't have EV lol
eruo us and japan get their batteries from china.
The news is shrouded in political secrets, so why can't it be more direct and explain that the EU and the US are rejecting cheap Chinese EVs because of jobs and to protect their own companies (taxes); don't talk about overcapacity and excessive subsidies, every country has these problems.
Correction, the United States car market has been closed off to Chinese automakers because Chinese engineered and manufactured vehicles cannot pass our highway safety tests in the United States.
Our highway safety tests are not stricter or better than European safety test, our requirements are just unique to the United States.. this is why Renault, Citroen, or Peugeot do not sell cars in the United States. They don't want you to comply with our safety regulations.
Remember when you banned the VW van..?
@@Memovox When was this?
@@theylied1776 You own Google. Use it, cowboy.
@@theylied1776 Google is American. Use it.
They are not safety regs, it’s regulation to stop imports.
The communist republic of the USA cannot deal with capitalism.