As a French man, the way you present this contrevertial event is really appreciated. You seem to take care to read the facts from a neutral perspective. I fully understand why the Royal Navy attacked in such a way and I fully blame French command for this. Once defeat was near they should have sailed all ships and crews, with full loads of fuel, munition, equipment out of France and all the way to the US. French Merchent fleet should have sailed witn full cargos of equipment and goods to Britain to help them sustain themselves in the months to come. National pride in France suffered greatly from this defeat and a greater commitment from France - before its fall - to help the UK stay in the fight would have helped us keep our honor even if the land campaign was a resounding defeat
Yeah a high capacity assault cake. No cake should be able to hold that many candles. 5 candles is more than enough. Wee need to ban these dangerous weapons of birthday festivities. Think of the kids! But in all honesty I was so releaved to hear that that particular situation was resolved peacefully. Having to fire on the men who were just prior gathered to wish you a happy birthday would have been awful. I don't know if i could have followed those orders.
To look back with a piece of your birth cake in your mouth to your ships 15 inch guns pointed at you ! Dont screw up ! Talk about looking down the barrel .
The way I read him, Admiral Gensoul was an aristocrat, probably making his rank via political appointment rather than merit and achievement. The fact he never spoke on the matter post war up until his death though, makes me wonder if he truly grasped the enormity his own errors.
@@mad_max21lol, you must know absolutely nothing about French or European history in general to make this statement. Basically your thesis = after the FR, the existence of aristocracy was deleted and forever more, the idea of lineage, houses/families with century of wealth and political connections and/or a rarefied social class ceased to exist. Sure..
As a Frenchman, I really appreciate the effort you gave into thorough researching for this episode. I entirely agree with your perception of the event. Even though the British had breached some articles of neutrality when firing upon the French vessels, it was vital for this French fleet to be put out of action so long as its loyalty to the Allies was in doubt. Failure to have done so could have had very dramatic results on the war as a whole, not just the Med theatre. I cannot bring myself to blame the British for this, as belligerent Churchill was, since if they had not done it the Allies could have lost the Med, leading to the potential fall of Egypt, allowing the Axis to seize the Middle East, and then I will let you imagine what would be the end result... Gensoul and Vichy are the culprits of this tragedy. Vichy first because they are traitors, flat out traitors. There is a reason why 1940 to 1944 are regarded as the darkest years in all of French history, not because of the military defeat but because of the collaboration regime. Had these nazi sympathisers not been put in power following the debacle of 1940, and real French patriots kept control of the military, the entire French fleet would have carried on the fight alongside the British just as it had done up to that point. As to Gensoul, not only did he fail his men and let them die in the worst circumstances possible, at the hand of their allies, but his refusal to join forces with the British in by itself shows that Gensoul was willing to collaborate with Vichy/the enemy and lay down his arms and worse, perhaps fight against the Allies. Even still, he could have simply sailed to Fort-de-France and regrouped with the rest of the demobilised fleet. No deaths, no breach of orders. But no, that would have to sensible! Mers-el-Kébir is also the perfect representation of why Britain always had an edge on France and why it was more successful. In military terms, the quality of British equipment was never excellent, almost always inferior when compared to French equipment. Be it in gunsmithery (beginning in the musket era, France had tougher musket designs and overall established itself as a nation of excellent gunsmiths even until today), troop quality (Britain was the last major European military to finally adopt a professional army while France had a long history of having a well-trained standing army), and in ship design (yes, as much as it seems incredible, French ship designs, starting in the 18th century, were regarded as among the best in Europe very close to that of the Dutch. And guess who thought that too. The Royal Navy itself! Read about the Commerce-de-Marseille class for example), and in to a lesser extent depending on which field we look at, innovations. France had an edge on Britain in terms of means. BUT! One thing France did/does not have or at least did/does not have consistently throughout history is an effective leadership. Britain always, ALWAYS, had that edge over France. Where France had a single outstanding general, Britain had two. Where France had a single great minister or adviser, Britain had a whole cabinet and a Prime Minister of great cunning. Where France had one successful admiral surrounded by ten incompetent other, Britain had two matchless admirals and countless naval geniuses. France ended up with the best tools, but Britain ended up with the best minds. Look at the Seven Years War, look at the Napoleonic Wars, look at the Invasion of Algeria, look at the intervention in Mexico, look at Franco-Prussian War, look at the Lebel in WWI, look at inter-war France, look at French rifle stocks in 1939, look at WWII, look at Indochina, look at the Algerian War, look at France today. At Mers-el-Kébir, another French incompetent and worthless leader led so many valiant sailors manning some of the better ships of this conflict to their futile deaths while on the other end clear-sighted and thoughtful British commanders had endeavoured whole-heartedly their very best to prevent this tragedy. It has always been so and it will always be so...
Not actually french despite my name but ya I agree. Would have made the Battle for the Atlantic look like a minor skirmish if the French fleet had switched hands.
Votre réponse empile les contre-sens historiques et les erreurs mais c'est surtout la démonstration d'une d'une rare veulerie ... Un chien soumis léchant les pieds de son maitre.
VAN GORP Votre réponse à vous empile la haine et la bêtise mais c’est surtout la démonstration d’une rare rare simplicité... Un serpent perfide qui n’a ni tête pour penser ni cœur pour avoir d’émotion.
@@blackbokis3064 1° Si vous n’êtes pas français: J'allais vous répondre point par point quand j'ai relu : "Votre réponse à vous empile la haine et la bêtise mais c’est surtout la démonstration d’une rare rare simplicité... Un serpent perfide qui n’a ni tête pour penser ni cœur pour avoir d’émotion." En fait , vous n’êtes mêmes pas francophone ! Vous ne faites que répétez que ce que vous avez lu en anglais. Une version anglaise et simplifié de l'histoire de France... Mais par pitié, ne vous faites pas passer pour un français. Le pire c'est vous croyez probablement être francophile. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ 2° Si vous êtes français: Vous n’êtes pas digne de ma haine simplement du mépris qu'on doit à un individu aussi servile et prétentieux. vous n'avez qu'une connaissance d'autodidacte des sujets sur lesquels vous blablatez, une absence totale de compréhension des enjeux de l'époque. Dénoncer la simplicité quand vous n'avez si manifestement aucune formation en sciences historiques n'est qu'une preuve supplémentaire de votre prétentieuse imbécilité. la conclusion s'impose d'elle-même: vous n’êtes qu'un simple c.... qui à partir de références superficielles et incomprises se fait mousser en crachant sur la France. Pitoyable... POSTS
Fadm Chester Nimitz was once asked by one of his staff officers "Why do you have a photo of Douglas MacArthur in such a prominent place?" The Answer - "To remind me not to be a Horses Ass." Gensoul could have taken that to heart.
@@looinrims Great Britain was at War, on her own and fighting for her life. The stakes were high in the extreme. This was no time to go wobbly. For the sake of your loved ones and fellow countrymen, I sincerely hope you never have to go to war to defend your country.
To be fair the French should of seen this coming. They were rolled by the Germans and thought they could wait it out in the middle of the Allies and Axis. Those ships should've been long gone by the time France surrendered.
In his book “The Second World War: Their Finest Hour” Winston Churchill indulged in a bit of “what if”: How vain are human calculations of self-interest! Rarely has there been a more convincing example. Admiral Darlan had but to sail in any one of his ships to any port outside France to become the master of all French interest beyond German control. He would not have come like General de Gaulle with only an unconquerable heart and a few kindred spirits. He would have carried with him outside the German reach the fourth Navy in the world, whose officers and men were personally devoted to him. Acting thus, Darlan would have become the chief of the French Resistance with a mighty weapon in his hand. British and American dockyards and arsenals would have been at his disposal for the maintenance of his fleet. The French gold reserve in the United States would have assured him, once recognised, of ample resource. The whole French Empire would have rallied to him. Nothing could have prevented him from being the Liberator of France. The fame and power which he so ardently desired were in his grasp. Instead, he went forward through two years of worrying and ignominious office to a violent death, a dishonoured grave, and a name long to be execrated by the French Navy and the nation he had hitherto served so well.
"How vain are human calculations of self-interest!" spoken well for a man who was a whore to finance and global banking power so that he could buy nice cigars, live the high life and thus have the "honored grave" in the multicultural era, despite his hatred for the indians who ironically won the war for him (enlisted in ridiculous number to get away from the India that the UK was starving to death), despite his support for gassing "inferior tribes", despite taking a course of action that let half of Europe fall to communism. Well, his grave isn't very "honored" now; it's rightfully sitting in a box in some British square, and the inheritors of the British isles will melt this f#ckwits statue down and use it to make a mosque dome, if anything. The man who sold the world.
Winston also had to prove to President Roosevelt that he (Britain) would do whatever had to be done. I've always had mixed feelings about this, as many people do, but Churchill was begging the US for support, and Roosevelt was dealing with the Isolationist sentiment which constituted a huge segment of the population and Congress. It was high risk, and there really wasn't a happy outcome. Britain couldn't take the risk, and Roosevelt needed proof that Britain really had the backbone to what had to be done.
Well, that is what separates men with spine, and sheeple. A great many of the tragedies in this world happen because when a man is tested between making that deadly choice between greatness and cowardice, too many cannot step off the path of the easy and compliant.
Gensoul's performance here reminds me of the quote from Hunt for Red October when the Konovalov's torps homed in onto itself- "You arrogant ass, you've killed us"
Yeah, and if he had followed the brits conditions the same would have happened, except with the civilian population falling entirely under occupation. Gensoul had no choice.
@@lsq7833 The civilian population *did* fall under occupation, first of the fascist puppet regime aligned with the Nazis, later to the fascist Axis powers themselves.
Could not agree more. Plenty of blame to go around, but Admiral Gensoul shoulders the most as 1) he was the leader on the spot (the buck stops there), and 2) his conduct in placing his personal pride, with his perceived affront at the rank of the British emissary (and it's not like the British sent a mere lieutenant or some such), above his obligation to his fleet/men is unconscionable and indefensible.
One would have to think how Admiral Gensoul's own Captains thought of the snub to their rank. They are the officers an Admiral directly commands and he goes all, men of your rank are not worthy to smell my bad breath. Opposite of leadership.
@@dreamingflurry2729 History has to be seen in the context of the time. The French at the time were no colony being treated like dirt but an ally and a major power. Your non sequitur about treatment of others by the British through the context of French colonialism is pretty silly. Nobody just jumps up and says "Hey we want to ruled and controlled by some foreign nation, turn us into a colony!" Finally British propaganda. War. And? So? Considering Germany's track record at the moment made the British look like saints.
@@dreamingflurry2729 Really ? In a war that truly can be described as being between good and evil, you do not fight cleanly. You fight to win. Your opinion is both sanctimonious and bigoted. I suppose a little crypto fascist like you would have preferred Hitler to have won.
@@dreamingflurry2729 not because they might turn into enemies, but that the enemy you were fighting together might seize valuable assets if those assets aren't moved completely out of reach. What, you're going to trust Hitler when he says he doesn't want your ships? Can we even count the times that Hitler said, "Just give me this, I dont want anything else" and a month later he's making more demands? Hm, Rhineland, rearmament, ships over 10,000 tons, Sudetenland, the rest of Czechoslovakia, Poland ... Now we're supposed to trust that Hitler won't decide he needs those ships and just come take them? Or trust that the new French government, which just broke its promise not to seek a separate peace, will scuttle the ships before the Germans can seize them? However distasteful the final outcome, the British did what was necessary at the time given their decision to continue resisting Hitler. If Gensoul had just accepted one of the options offered by the British, an option Darlan had already approved of (relocation to French colonies in the Americas), then those thousand or so French sailors would have lived to join the Free French in 1942.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 at Dakar, Dorsetshire cruiser had the order to sink the Richelieu if he intended to go to the indies. Churchill wanted tje french fleet down.
Cunningham managed to talk the French admiral in Alexandria into giving up his ships peacefully, and he was pretty annoyed at the pressure Churchill laid on to open fire.
Sir Andrew Cunningham was one of the Navy’s most notable commanders of WW2, and any future capital ships the Navy builds would be fully justified if his name was given to one of them. Possibly with an HMS Jellicoe in the same class.
It helps that you have an overwhelmingly superior force at hand and the enemy has no chance to win or escape (as was the case in Alexandria). The significantly more powerful French force in Oran (both in absolute and relative terms - compared to the threatening RN force) did have a chance (and a sizeable portion of it did escape)
@@RedXlV And the fact that he encouraged other war-crimes (fire-bombing cities with now outlawed phosphorus-bombs! Churchill was a man of action, a true bulldog, but he was also a criminal IMHO! Killing civilians (directly, if they are collateral damage it is bad enough!) is a no go in war and everybody who does it should be executed IMHO!)
@Blesava Konjina Nonsense. The French ships were manned and ready to sail. The French were given every opportunity to continue with the war effort or to stay out of it, but they chose to make it clear that they would become a nazi-aligned threat to the British war effort and so had to be sunk. Just imagine being the Admiral of a strong French fleet and abandoning your alliles to fight alongside the Nazis, who had invaded your country. Gensoul was weak and stupid.
@Blesava KonjinaWhy would the British land more troops when France had already switched sides and joined the Nazis? The point was that the strength of the fleet at Mers was enough to clear the British out of the Med, and seeing as the French were on the side of the Nazis, that fleet had to be neutralised. While the French performed their coward act, the British kept fighting for 5 more years - the navies of all the other countries invaded by the Nazis sailed to England to keep fighting alongside their allies while the French instead collaborated with the enemy.
36:05 "The British were coming" given the naval history between the British and the French. That's not exactly the kinda of news a French Admiral wants to hear.
@@leodesalis5915 I get the deep History between the French and British... but don't forget that it had sort of be "reset" during WWI when both fought as allies... mostly on French soil... also against the Germans. The actual LIVING memory at the time (personal experiences, as opposed to knowledge gained from History books) was of France and GB being allies.
@@Nyet-Zdyes Yeah of course but in England it's always been a joke to hate on the French no matter what happens it's the same as the Americans, people like Churchill and Monty that summed up the stereotypical opinion of our allies
@@Nyet-Zdyes and no matter how far you go back everyone in British history had one reason or another to dislike the French or at least have something to rag on then about
There exists a lesser known communique attributed to Admiral Gensoul which may shed some light on why the British attacked, it reads as follows: "Your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries". I'll get my coat...👍
Hey??? Hamsters are cute and clever animals! Don't insult the little guys. I laughed for a while when I saw that comment. Still one of the best moments in movie history. Monty Pythons Flying Circus never failed to entertain!!!
If that isn't the sum of the French military in 1940- brave men, brave and competent junior and field grade officers Colonel and below- lead by incompetent, arrogant and/or lazy General and Flag grade officers- seems to be a carryover from WW1 - weather they tried to or not.
it didn't help with many of their leaders aged in their 70's and 80's. Totally out of touch with reality and way behind the times with regards to technological improvements, developments and modern military tactics. The french had more and heavier tanks than the germans, they had a powerful and modern navy. Much of their strategy was of a defensive nature and was exposed when the maginot line was flanked. But as for the navy they had many bases within their colonies to fall back on. But the rapid collapse of their country came before the dithering old cronies posing as leaders could make a decision.
It may seem like a morally right thing to say that it was a bunch of “brave and competent junior and field grade officers” and to blame the leadership, but this is just a simplistic way explanation. Militaries of all countries are lead by senior leadership because over many years it has been shown to be more reliable. Also this is the same excuse Hitler sympathizers often gives to Wehrmacht. “Ooh, but they were just honorable soldiers carrying out orders. They were innocent and all the bad things were done by the SS.” Un...no. Of course the French aren’t Germans but the idea that everything in any war is just leadership’s responsibility seems to be excusing any military from any wrong doing by default.
@Nickolas Schneider Yes, of course I realize that. It is difficult for me to imagine that anyone in the world who has seen at least one documentary about the war would not know it. Yes, I do mean that many people perpetuate the myth of "innocent Wehrmacht" . Of course the people who are known to have committed specific acts of heroism may deserve respect for those acts. I also agree that German soldiers who were drafted to war deserve pity in a sympathetic way. But respect as veterans, if it implies "heroes", or for carrying out their duty, then no. If it makes you feel better, I am Russian American, and I think that soviet soldiers who participated in any kind of looting and violence against civilians do not deserve adoration or respect simply for having followed the draft orders. Particularly because Putin's russia today has an extremely unhealthy cult like thing about USSR and WW2 especially now when Putin and his supporters really exploit it.
A few years ago I investigated this tragedy and have to say that Drachinifel's analysis is absolutely top notch. If only all documentaries were this thorough. Well done. To add, The British got much of their oil from the Persian Gulf and it was shipped through the Suez Canal to the Mediterranean. As Drachinifel pointed out, when Reynaud came to office, one of his first acts was to sign an agreement with Chamberlain that said neither France or Britain would sign an armistice or peace agreement without mutual consent. Churchill agreed to releasing France of this agreement providing either the French fleet either join the British or neutralize their fleet so that the ships could not fall into German hands. So Churchill felt betrayed when he read the terms of the Vichy - German agreement that the French fleet was to return back to ports in France, and be placed under German guard. What Churchill did not know , was that Petain had insisted that the French fleet be disarmed in North Africa. So the bottom line was this , France had the second largest fleet in Europe. So had the French fleet landed in the hands of the Kriegsmarine , the Kriegsmarine and the Italian navy could have cut Britain off much of its oil supply and the war would have been over for Britain. Churchill could not put the fate of Britain into the hands of Darlan's solemn word .
The bottom line is this: London made demands without considering the French position. Bible says to "put yourself in their shoes". French position: protect Algeria from invasion. *What did Churchill offer to protect Algeria when the French ships left?*
even with all the history between Great Britain and France, this was still heart breaking to listen to. Nothing would have made me more proud as a Brit than to have heard a new twist to the battle of the denmark straights, of Hood, Prince of Wales and french battleships working together to sink bismark. 🇬🇧🇨🇵 God bless all involved in this tragedy.
Almost every British veteran of WW2 that cared enough to write author Nicholas Pringle ,said they regretted having fought in WW2 , and given the chance to go back would not have fought , their letters were compiled in " the unknown warriors" by Nicholas Pringle
@Gordon Freeman what you remarked is so true. Of course the French weren’t going to let the brits tell them what to do and they fought the land campaign very badly. Britain just couldn’t take a chance of that navy falling to the nazis
@TheSatanicTicTac France had been ordered by the Axis to render control of their fleet over to the Germans and Italians--the British had reasons to doubt Britain's very survival if the Axis then did what they had done repeatedly and readily many times over recent years: blatantly betray their international agreements for the sake of conquest and opportunism. So the British ultimatum was absolutely necessary--either Darlan violates the Axis orders of the armistice by not giving his fleet over to German control, or he violates the Axis orders of the armistice. Simply keeping the ships for themselves, in their own control, was not an option unless they became a free navy and continued to fight the Axis. And the British gave them a whole slew of options, which was entirely reasonable. Remember, they had both the option to just scuttle their ships (which basically satisfies the letter of the armistice, since the ships were going to be supposedly "disarmed" anyway), or to sail them to a neutral nation's ports for the duration of the war (which also basically satisfies the armistice, since a neutral nation is not going to let them be used in the war lest its own neutrality be compromised. And Gensoul rejected the very basis of being an officer--to either make decisions when presented with a situation in which a decision must be made, or to consort with their superiors to get THEM to make a decision based on all the information you could give them. Gensoul both refused to make a decision and actively decided to not give absolutely critical information to his superiors when he was asking for THEM to make a decision for him (despite already having pre-existing orders from his superior officer that laid out what he was to do if his fleet was threatened with seizure or an ultimatum). The British did NOT want to open fire on the French ships. The French gave them no choice BUT to open fire. Because you can't bet your nation's very existence on a bunch of sailors and officers managing to scuttle their ships no matter what despite orders from the Axis (to which their leadership had agreed to) saying otherwise.
@@russty81ify In fact Somerville's orders began "You are charged with carrying out perhaps the most disagreeable orders that any of His Majesty's admirals have been given ...."
Many point to the fact that the French eventually scuttled ships, but to me, this just highlights the waist of life brought on by the admiral in charge of the French fleet.
Had Mers el Kebir not happened in some way or another, it's an open question whether the French fleet would've scuttled itself since the political calculus at the time would have been completely different. With MeK and subsequent battles the Vichy French knew their fleet was doomed one way or another and scuttling the fleet while daring the Nazis to 'punish' them was a gamble vs not scuttling and getting bombed and bombarded to death by the Brits / US who clearly weren't going to let the Nazis use that fleet in any way other than scrap / salvage.
Military and political leaders have to make decisions with the information they have at the time . So arm chair historians making claims with after the fact information is worthless . The absolute worst are generals and politicians who make claims after the war is over . Most famously , Halder of the OKH . .
@josephdestaubin7426= The Nov. 1942 invasion of the “Zone Libre” by the Germans in response to the Allied operation Torch in North Africa removed any reason for Marine Nationale (the French Navy) to abide by the Armistice clauses. The logical decision would have been for the French Admirals to order the Toulon fleet to sail for North Africa and join the Allies, since the Pétain-Laval government had no longer any degree of independence from German occupation! But following the Mers-el-Kébir 1940 attack, there was such an enmity of the MN High Command towards the British that the Admirals in charge at Toulon (Jean de Laborde & André Marquis) did not follow the last-minute order from Algiers of Adm. François Darlan (commander of all French Forces at the time) to send the Toulon MN fleet to Africa and instead chose to follow his previous standing order to scuttle the fleet if Toulon were invaded. Laborde was for that reason condemned to death (later commuted to a 15 year prison sentence) at the end of WW II. The fleet in Toulon able to cast off for Africa represented about a quarter of Marine Nationale, which at the start of WW II was ranked fourth in the world. While honorable and wildly applauded by the US press, the Toulon 1942 scuttling could have been avoided, and the MN vessels, refitted in US arsenals, could have contributed to the war, both in European and Pacific waters. This is where the July 1940 Churchill decision to attack the MN fleet at Mers-el-Kébir casts its long shadow. __ .
@@christianfournier6862A classic example of the French being pompous asshats, who are only out for themselves and would be more than happy with fucking over everyone else. Typical of the entire French culture.
I have seen several docs about this event and this vid is easily the best. From the info, to the personal view really comes together quite well! Great job
Thank you once again for fantastic content. Your channel has become by far my absolute most watched on TH-cam! I have a 45 minute drive to and from work each day and your Drydock videos are all i listen to. I'm up to episode 49. Yours is the most technically competent and interesting channel I know of. Keep up the work!
These early days of WW2 don't get enough attention. They didn't have the pitched battles of the later days, but my goodness, the uncertainty, terror, and betrayal is enough to cause nightmares.
I'm not sure where you get the lack of pitched battles from. Most of the country of Poland was a battlefield. Northern france had huge battles take place. The low countries commited their entire forces and Norway held out against incredible odds. Not to mention the huge battles happening in China. And that's not even a year into the war!
Totally agree with Adam B. There was a lot of blood and desperation since 39 and for many 37. IMHO, the generally told & known story of WW2 in the US is bracketed by Pearl Harbor and the atom bomb. More and more it's just the atom bomb.
Such a shame. In England the war is taught as a world war. We learn it all. There is a tendancy to forget about China too much. It's often dismissed as a civil war with added Japan. but it's still taught in passing. I often wonder how much better America might manage if it's people knew more about the world that wasn't just about how it effects America. I've been over a few times and met amazing and lovely people. But it's astonishing how little that said people know about the world :(
Gensoul was only a honest militaryman who obeyed the orders of the legal government. France, at that time, was neutralized by the armistice treaty., that Pétain never broke, and never had the intention to break. Mers-el-Kébir was in fact nothing but an unuseful crime and felony, and in more, a military failure, since the french fleet was only temporarily a bit lessened by the loss of an old dreanought and other more little ships; the four modern line battleships stayed untouched, except the Dunkerque who was later rather quickly repaired.
@@felix25ize You get nowhere appealing to me to remember Marshall Pétain's honorable nature: je me souviens le Vel d'Hiv. (If you're going to use latter events to justify your position, that opens the field for me to do the same.) As for Gensoul's supposed honesty - his inability to fully appraise the authorities back home that he was trying to appeal to for a decision is not what I'd describe as the act of an honest man. I'm just a former blue shirt scum, but if I ever bungled a sitrep as badly has Admiral Gensoul failed in his communications to the Vichy government I'd have lost my rating and likely faced time in Leavenworth
@@OtakuLoki Pétain later engaged in collaboration, the nazi pistol aiming his temple, and becoming older ; but never to the point of engaging his fleet and army besides the nazis; and Mers -el-Kébir showed him ( and also to the french population) what kind of allies were the englishes , and that was quite something as a reason for his later attitude ( and the attentism of most of the french population ). With such friends, you do not need ennemies ... De Gaulle, at his burial, even brought him justice, which was impossible in the political climate of the immediate afterwar, when he only had as reasonnable option to change his death condemnation into prison ...
Your assessment is spot on, although I would not consider "legality" to carry any weight. Did Hitler consider legality when he ordered German troops into the Rhineland...or invaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway...etc? By the time Mers-el-Kebir happened, legality was a sham. At that point, it was all about survival. By issuing the ultimatum, Churchill was fulfilling his obligation to ensure the survival of Britain. Hitler had thrown legality under the bus long before that.
LOL In other words "we are excused when we drop bombs and murder other people because the Germans crossed imaginary lines to unite with other Germans and invaded fake countries we set up to keep Europe weak" The UK loves its Sith vs. Jedi fantasy about the world, even while it sinks in the dumpster fire of wreckage that goes back to the avoidable wars it "won". The British are basically the American neo-cons of the next century.
@@ipsoepsum6880 Fake countries? Like Poland that can trace its history back to 1025, or Norway and Denmark which are even older? You have an interesting world view to say the least. So the Nazis were fine to invade whoever they wanted on the flimsy pretext of "uniting Germans" but the British were wrong to try to stop them? And don't even use words like "murder" when your favourite guys were responsible for the greatest atrocities in history. Seriously.
But what legality? Legality made by victors forced on a nation? That is a complicated topic and just saying that it’s legal, like situations like that are covered extensively by some common law and not just made up on the spot especially back then, makes no sense.
@@Icetea-2000 ...um, it's not clear to whom your remarks are addressed. For my part, my point was that "legality" is essentially an irrelevant criterion during a condition of total war, which was the condition in evidence during WW2. Indeed, in an absolute sense, "legality" is a relative, arbitrary criterion at any time. It is determined by political laws, which typically are not anchored in rational or moral principle. So, if you expected me to disagree with you, I can't accommodate you. The fact that legality is ultimately rooted in the edicts of transient political systems makes it a dodgy criterion at best and a wholly unsuitable criterion at worst for determining the rightness or wrongness of any action.
Interesting that Admiral Gensoul apparently never talked about it, even though he lived another 30+ years. Are there any contemporaneous French records available?
Narrative in postwar France, (up to today, but more forcefully in the early days) was staunchly De Gaullist, with the man himself actually either ruling or being a major influence in the country. No wonder Gensoul kept quiet on the subject.
He probably never talked about since in hindsight he realized what an absolute idiot he was. And he was again too prideful to admit it. Maybe talking about it is like talking to a captain??
This is one of your finest videos. Thankyou for doing it, it is admirable the effort you put in to make sure that fact is the basis for logic. It is such a tragedy which us Brits aren't proud of and for that reason aren't taught about, when it is exactly these type of lessons which everyone needs to be aware of to learn from.
The best analysis of the situation I have ever seen. The sad thing is indeed the tragedy of war in that people die for various reasons and those that fail to justify their deaths and those that try to.
Thank you for this episode and the research to highlight all the events behind the Mers El Kbir incident. I never knew about the sailing of the French fleet to the U.S. was in the orders from the Vichy Government, that really changes in my eye how we Brits played it.
Sir, Your video documentary is spot on. The reasoning, documentation and analysis was refreshing to view here on youtube. I give you a 15 on a scale of 1-10 !! A very Great contribution to history you have provided here. Thank You
What odd here is that both sides had a willingness to allow the ships to go to the USA. Since the US was still essentially neutral, they could've sent over an escort for the ships to return to America and nobody would've bothered them. Germany would've grumbled but they certainly wouldn't have opened up on an American fleet at this point in the conflict since bringing the US into the war almost 18 months earlier than they actually entered the conflict would've been disastrous to the Axis. So really, the whole conflict comes down to the British fear driving them to a rapid resolution, and the French taking a too 'laissez-faire' approach to something so crucial to the situation. Had both sides actually negotiated at the Admiral to Admiral level to start with, even with guns levelled at each other, they could've probably come across the American solution at the same point, kept it quiet and had the US intervene to help out, thus the only potential win-win in the whole mess. Instead, we got tragedy all the way around and 80 years later... still anger and hatred. Again, the human factor driving unnecessary loss.
Great idea if it could have been pulled off but what happens if whilst you wait the long time for the Americans to be informed, agree, put to sea and then cross the Atlantic, the French Fleet are sent to France to be seized or seized in north Africa by the Axis (Italians you would suspect) or dispersed around multiple ports and you've lost the ability to bottle them up if it all goes wrong, with the state of the French government of that time (and the events leading up to) no deal could be relied upon that didn't have immediate effect. The Royal Navy could blockade Mers-el-Kebir with a sufficient force to keep the French there or fight the Italians, there wasn't enough ships in the med to do both. Whatever outcome it was going to be it had to be decided that day.
It wasn't that crucial at the moment, at least from my read on it. The French were signaling in their own French way that they didn't expect the Germans/Italians to do much of anything with the fleet for a while since they were occupied elsewhere on land. It was the fears that have been outlined that really panicked the British into wanting this decided so rapidly. The ships weren't going anywhere and any land forces to try and take them by force would've taken weeks to assemble and get marching. In that same time, the US could've had a small naval force there and escorted them away. They could've even reflagged them as US ships and had them sitting in the middle of the Med for a week or so for a US ship to start escorting them. There are a lot of tricks that could've been employed to keep them out of both British and German/Italian hands which would've been the point.
I think it unlikely that the US would have agreed to escort the French ships - it simply wasn't politically viable for the US. Many in the US and elsewhere, most especially in the US congress, would've seen that as a US fleet escorting British prizes of war and thus as a violation of US neutrality. Captain Holland pointed out to Gensoul (or was it one of his subordinates?) that both his orders and the British ultimatum allowed the French ships to go. Sommerville didn't speak french. Gensoul didn't speak english. So they couldn't negotiate directly with one another.
A chance to have a chance to grab a bunch of French warships to look at? Yeah, they would've taken them, even Congress isn't that stupid. It was okay'd by both sides so there wasn't a political cost anyway. No significant risk.
@@SHcinema Sorry but that is wishful thinking, the german navy was well outnumbered, the addition of the modern French leaflet would have more than doubled the german capability not necessarily in number but type and modernity. No choice surrender the ships or face destruction.
A comprehensive and insightful look at tragic events. My thoughts on this are more clear with the behind the scenes descriptions that you have related. Fascinating video. My thanks!👏🤨
There is another factor that Drachinfel missed that I believe is important to think about. At this point in time France had been knocked out of the war, and Britain was effectively alone and facing a probably invasion threat ("Operation Sealion"). This was not a time for half-measures; Britain had to show Germany and the rest of the world that it was serious about fighting to the end. Whatever the other facts are about the Mers-el-Kebir attack, the destruction of the French fleet showed everyone that Britain was not going to roll over die, and hence that Germany was not going to gain yet another easy victory. It has been argued that this was one of the factors that convinced Hitler that any invasion attempt was unlikely to succeed, allowing Britain to continue the fight and act as a platform for the final defeat of Germany.
But there has not been a destruction of the french fleet ! There were four french dangerous modern line battleships that Churchill feared; only one has been damaged, the Dunkerque, and rather quickly repaired; the Strasbourg escaped ( by painting in yellow an officer of the Hood with the coloured splashes of her shells ) and the Richelieu and the Jean-Bart were not there; but the destruction of the old dreadnought Bretagne and other more little vessels made more than 1300 casualties. In fact, only an unuseful and treatrous mass murder... Actually, no place for complacency ...
@@felix25ize How can it possibly be described as traitorous? France had capitulated to Germany and so Great Britain owed no allegiance whatsoever to Vichy Government France.
@@DraigBlackCat Do you mean that not stabbing in the back our fleet with more than 1300 casualties would have been an act of allegiance to Vichy ? Btw; the fleet was docked, neutralized and not , by any mean, destined to attack Great Britain, only to potentially protect north Africa. Of course, if you wanted to be more than 100% sure of that, the best was this ruthless stalinian way mass assassination (there are many people who may, one day or another, harm me, do you believe that I will preventively murder them for that reason?). I repeat: no place for complacency ...
The truth is that when Germany invaded France, the French admiral refused any of the five options that would've saved the French Mediterranean fleet. Yet when it was certain the allies were going to win the war- the French scuttled their fleet as promised to the Germans- that's screwed up, stupid and vindictive.
Gensoul was clearly in the wrong refusing to talk to a captain, but on the second attempt where he actually met Holland they probably should have actually sent Somerville along side Holland in an attempt to appease the bastard. If he’s such an egomaniac maybe Somerville showing up would have buttered him up.
In those days I wonder how in touch he was with what had been going on. Its bad enough there would be no TV in those days but on board ship there would have been no newspapers, no cinema news and possibly no news radio when not in port and perhaps no contact with civilians. He would doubtless have been getting military news and orders. The political situation and the subjugation that the vichy treaty meant might not have sunk in. he could have been thinking he was head of a fleet for a politically viable and independent part of France so business as usual - so what if we lost a bit of the north, why should i betray France and hand over to a foreign power and upset the apple cart.
@@bluebird1046 pretty sure he couldnt watch cnn. The British experimental TV service was suspended for the war.. Tv transmitter towers were not widespread either. I don't think the French had one at all and if they did I'd bet the war they didnt have any on their ships
Absolutely. People like that are very easy to manipulate; all you have to do is flatter them. The method of getting your way with a narcissist is to pretend to be as much in love with them as they are with themselves (Mr Trump anyone?).
I'm in agreement with Croweater, if Admiral Somerville had negotiated directly with Admiral Gensoul and took Captain Holland as his interpreter with the written terms things might have gone very differently. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. A lot of the French military leadership also hated the British and regarded them as willing to fight to the last drop of French blood. After the sinking any stray French warship would have a tough choice on their hands but the intact French navy falling into German and Italian hands would probably meant an axis victory and a stronger, better equipped and earlier invasion of Russia, Hitlers real goal and they might have taken Moscow and knocked Russia out of the war. I can see why Churchill gave that order.
My grand father witnessed it. He was on an ammunition transporter, and the Harbour Captain forbade his ship to remain with the Other ships. He was based outside the harbour and when they saw the Royal Navy coming they just let the Anchor go, and escaped.
An enthralling education.... feels like I was there. To err is human... so many lives at the mercy of I'll thought decisions.... truly the tragedy of war, thanks mate
God, now I'm super bummed out. But thank you for that. This was a skillful and obviously well researched retelling and analysis of war history that did not seek to glorify combat. In fact, the editorial thesis placed a premium on avoiding bloodshed and not treating exchange of fire as inevitable. I wish more war historians took this approach with their recounting of historical events.
It wasn't mentioned or isn't much acknowledged but the attack also cemented other Allied and neutral opinions (especially the USA) that the UK was going to continue fighting the war in mid-1940.
_DK_ - it also had a sequel in the Invasion of Madagascar. The allies were concerned that the Japanese would use it to cut off India - a genuine fear - meaning that it had to be taken from the Vichy regime. The USA was deliberately kept out of the invasion so that the British would take the propaganda hit, keeping the Americans’ image as a “clean” peacemaker Again, more casualties were caused on the Allies by the French than upon the Axis...
That claim is repeated on and on by the British propaganda trying to both overestimate its achievements and importance in WW2 as well as justify this action of outright agression. Drachinifel at least didn't buy it (he mentions that consideration being of secondary importance at best to the British decision makers at the time).
@@VersusARCH If Britain didn't hold out the war in Western Europe would've been over and America would've just been in the Pacific. How supportive of Russia would America have been if It was just Hitler and Stalin fighting it out in Eastern Europe.I understand the hard feelings on this topic but this is on the Vichy and Free French governments for not seeing them ships as a future headache and having them leave when the Free French government did.
@@robert48044 Germany would have still attacked the USSR and everything would have ended more or less the same (UK would reenter the war as France did).
I come to opinion why European forces were defeated by German Nationalist. . They became to liberal pacifist as they are today . To hear The French President this year say liberalism is the only way . Haaaaahaaaaaa! The reports from the Germans that most there weapons were found only dropped once and most of there weapons were abandon leads to the liberal policy of putting weak leberalist in charge.
His options were to give the ships to the brits or the fascists. Regardless of what happened to them after the war, failure to give them over to the British is a colossal ethical and moral failure, to the point of being disgusting
@@About37Hobos but he had the option to do neither (by essentially going on vacation in America) and he instead chose to let 13,000+ of his own men die for no reason Edit: 1,300+ not 13,000+ 🤦😅
The whole of France was guilty of pride after having won world war 1, this in conjunction with their misunderstandings of how war as a whole would develop is what ultimately led to their downfall.
The entire affair had nothing to do with any threat by the French fleet. It was brought on by a political miscalculation by Churchill. Catapult was Churchill's way out of his miscalculation.
@@jamesm3471 Then again, only two battleships from the 1930s/40s ever got into a situation where their presence was justified. Failure is the norm for battleships of that time.
@@JohnE9999 Washington at 2nd Guadalcanal (South Dakota didn't contribute to that battle) and Duke of York at North Cape. Everything else never justified their costs.
Thank you for this in depth look at one of the lesser known episodes in naval history. One is forced to wonder how many of these there are, most glossed over because of history tending to focus on major events and even that interpretation having inaccuracies and misconceptions in various places. And some tragedies we’ll never even know about, mainly because most if not all of the individuals involved did not survive the incident.
One must never forget the fact Darlan had, even pre-war, always taken care of his own self promotion and preservation regardless of everything and everyone. Even at the expense of his own service branch and country. The man never stopped playing his own game, to the bitter end.
What an excellent well thought-out synopsis by an intelligent person. What a terrible tragedy, again due to human pride. Thank you for your time and effort in making this content.
This action had nothing to do with human pride. The primary reason why it took place was because of a political miscalculation by Prime minister Churchill combined with panic in the Roosevelt administration- in which Churchill made a poorly worded statement to U.S. President Roosevelt which resulted in FDR drawing a conclusion which Churchill had never intended. This action was Churchill's way out of that miscalculation, and had nothing whatsoever to do with any actual threat posed by the French Navy.
@@manilajohn0182 Yes correct. Of course, Washington DC knew of the perfidious nature of the European empires, incl. London/British Empire. *And of course if London and Washington were such "great friends" as our history wish to lead us to believe, then why on earth would Washington DC have kicked the meddling "London lord"-types off the American continent?* After 2 wars (1776 and 1812), and London initially siding against Washington DC during the American Civil War and the Mexican American War (later on), it was obviously quite clear to Washington DC that London was a meddling "perfidious Albion" trying to gain a foothold on the North American continent, and turning it into a "Europe 2.0". Luckily for the American people, the USA had "weak neighbors to the north and south, and only fish on both sides" (loosely quoting Bismarck). Imagine if Canada and Mexico/Spain had been stronger, and not been "weak neighbors"... You would have been turned into a "Europe 2.0", with London "hopping on the scale this side or that", during war as well as during peace, just "balancing powers", as they proudly self-confessed to doing across the English Channel.
@@ralphbernhard1757 I would agree with you, but only if, by "...the perfidious nature of the European empires...", you're referring to every empire which has ever existed there. Every nation in history has looked to its own interests first- and "In time of war, laws are silent". It's not pretty, but there it is. Every nation's indulged in that, including the U.S. They'll do so if they see the need arising, or if they may stand to benefit from it. I certainly agree with you regarding we Americans being lucky regarding Bismarck. It's a prime example of Alexandrian frontiers- and Mackinder's geopolitics and geostrategy in action, but in the outer crescent rather than the pivot area. The difference between the two is that the pivot area has potentially far greater access to resources.
@@manilajohn0182 Yes, correct of course. All existing and aspiring empires are "perfidious by nature". Self-serving, more or less. Or as I always say "nobody does anything for free", and that includes all empires. Some might be more benevolent than others, but there is always a "price tag" for "help", and "help" is often self-serving. It reminds me of the airline safety message of "put on your own oxygen mask first before helping others". That's how "empires" tick. They "put on their own oxygen mask", and only then "help others"...sometimes :-) Mackinder is great. But unfortunately London did not seem to understand nor follow their own geopolitical "logic", and somehow missed the USA's rise "across the pond". Or the fact that there might be some long-term grievances resulting from history. Logic almost dictates that London should have sought to unite Europe, not play their "divide and rule" games with the continental powers. After WW1, they descended one rung, and after WW2 they would lose their markets to the USA, their sphere of interest in Central Europe/Baltics/most of the Balkans to Moscow, the nr.1 position as "ruler of the world, the privilege of "Pax Britannica, both to the USA", their self-determined role of "balancer of powers" for the continent, their stated goal of being the "decider of wars" on the continent, and finally their "Empire".
@@ralphbernhard1757 Personally, I don't see Britain uniting Europe as a realistic proposition. Language barriers alone precluded such an attempt. Toss in self- aggrandizement, mutual suspicions, and animosities based on historical confrontation, and that's a non- starter. Humanity's struggling to do that even today, and we had one nation as holding practically every military, economic, and political card available at the helm- and a number of other major willing partners. Human beings aren't ready for it even today, and judging by current events, they likely won't ever be. In any case, Britain isn't at the center of what's wrong in the world. That position is held by man himself, regardless of nationality.
I don’t see the controversy. The Poles refused to surrender in any official capacity, evacuated their Navy and fought on with the Allies until Germany's surrender. The French created a collaborationist regime instead of evacuating their naval assets. They were fair game however slight the possibility of their ships ending up in German hands.
Lies upon lies. Vichy was a neutral state, the attack on Mers-El-Kébir is what gave them the perfect excuse to collaborate with the Axis. Even though in 1942 when Germany annexed what remained of France, on direct order of Admiral Darlan, they destroyed what was remaining of their navy to prevent it of being captured by the Germans.
@@anaon7025 I think your point is that the French were not monolithic in WWII. The collaborationists got an excuse while others, like Darlan, tried to walk the tense middle road of preserving what their nation had without it being destroyed by either side in the war (which failed, by such a time you can't fence sit and they should have did what the Poles and others did despite the cost to their nation that they left behind). There is more there too. The Resistance and its infinitely numerous factions wound up fighting one another more than they did the Nazi's or Vichy.
@@anaon7025 Neutral state my arse. You deported Jews and fought the Allies in Operation Torch. The Poles had huge moral high ground over French actions.
@@PolakInHolland Absolutely mad how the French narrative is still so much that they did a great job in WW2. Such a bad look to not admit to faults or mistakes. See how they dealt with getting caught doing state terrorism in New Zealand in the 80's. Such noble behaviour en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
Gensoul witheld the most viable option of sailing for the French west indes. He effectively lied and bears most responsibility for the outcome. The French needed to keep their fleet intact without handing it over to the axis. The fleet was virtually the last bargaining chip that the French had. The threat of handing these ships over to the British was sufficient to keep the Germans out of the South of France. Relocating to the French West indes could have kept the ships out of both British and German hands.
@@pathutchison9866 This was 1940. The Japanese were not in the war yet. This would have moved the ships to the other side of the atlantic, close to the USA. Apart from a couple of submarine journeys, the Japanese never visited the Atlantic.
@Michael The best option was for them to move to a french west indian port. They would have remained out of reach of the Germans and Italians and served as a bargaining chip for the Vichy government. I doubt that the german u boats would have been too much trouble for them. They could have sailed out of the danger zone in convoy at 22 knots.
PS. For his arrogance, Gensoul denied a part of this bargaining power by loosing ships, he let his sailors down, he lied about his options, all for the sake of his pride. The French should have shot him.
@Michael He could not turn the fleet over to the british because its mere presence was keeping the germans out of the south of france. As for submarines, wolf pack tactics had nt been developed yet and the type 7C was only good for about 7 knots submerged and about 14 knots on the surface. The only subs on the area were french.
That was seriously interesting. Great doco mate. I agree entirely with your take on the bottom line, as far as responsibility is concerned. Yet another example from history, of ego causing disaster.
Drachinifel, where the damnable decisions of an unworthy officer doomed 1300 of his men, your thorough, thoughtful analysis brings honor to their sacrifice for a new generation. This was a masterful video. More than explaining a moment in the past, you have given a lesson and a warning to leaders from men who no longer could. Bravo Zulu.
This was a wonderful episode. Great analysis. One positive effect of this action was that Roosevelt, who was not sure of Churchill's tenacity to continue the fight against Germany, was convinced of it and began to foster the provision of assistance as far as the Congress and population would allow.
I don't think Admiral Gensoul actually cared so much about the fact that the British had sent a captain to negotiate with him. I fully believe he made a fuss about it to buy his fleet time to come up to steam and to see if the British were actually serious. In my opinion, Admiral Gensoul wasn't entirely unjustified in refusing to hand over his fleet or scuttle it in harbor. In hindsight, his best options were to join with the Royal Navy or scuttle them, but he did not have the gift of hindsight. As you had mentioned, many observers on both sides thought the Brits were mere weeks away from brokering a peace with Germany. Mers-el-Kebir was the first test of the Vichy government's legitimacy, and just surrendering the ships would have dire consequences for the French afterwards both for the sailors, for the Vichy government, and for the fleet as a whole. From the French perspective, the Vichy government was France's best bet at resuming a "normal" life with some degree of autonomy. Granted, they couldn't really trust the Germans, but what choice did they really have? If they opposed the Germans and the Brits did seek a separate peace, then they'd be subjugated in whole, like the Poles. There's no telling what would happen to the families of the sailors and officers. The Vichy government would seem weak and unwilling to back German interests (remember, the Vichy government staying neutral also served Axis interests, as its fleet wouldn't fall into British hands, and the French colonies in North Africa wouldn't have to be occupied by Axis troops). If this is the case, Vichy France becomes a liability the Germans would be unlikely to put up with. There is some degree of validity behind this, as when the Vichy troops in North Africa put up only a token resistance against the Allies in Operation Torch, the Germans invaded Vichy France and tried to take the ships at anchor in Toulon. Granted, I'm not slamming the British, either. They had no reason to trust the Germans would keep to their word, and so long as the French fleet existed, they would always pose a threat to the Royal Navy. Both sides did the best they could in a really bad situation. As unfortunate as it was that so many French sailors had to lose their lives and see all those ships sent to the bottom, the deed had to be done one way or another.
@@kemarisite In effect, that would show the world that the Vichy government was weak and lacked a will of its own. Again, this was the *very first* serious test of the Vichy government's legitimacy. I'm not just pulling this from my ass, either. Mers-el-Kebir would lead to most French colonies remaining loyal to the Vichy government rather than de Gaulle, with events like the Battle of Dakar (with the imcomplete French battleship Richelieu opening fire on the Royal Navy force rather than scuttling), the Battle of Madagascar, and the initial fighting between Vichy French and Allied troops during Operation Torch.
@@XXStoogieXX the very first test for the new government, and yet the fleet in Alexandria agreed to be interned. Somehow, I'm not buying the significance you're giving it.
@@kemarisite The fleet in Alexandria and the fleet in Plymouth and Portsmouth were all in British ports and not really subject to the will of the Vichy government. Nobody (including the Axis) expected the French ships to leave British ports in one piece. The fleet at Mers-el-Kebir on the other hand was fully autonomous, and the British had to come to them to enforce their will.
@@XXStoogieXX so, as I understand your opinion, Vichy, or rather Gensoul since he was actively denying his government important information, HAD to show the world they/he could make their own decisions by refusing all British demands? And then, having shown off its independance, Vichy had no problems following Getman orders to strip jews of citizenship and send them to the death camps, along with all the other undesirables as the Nazis defined them? No problems putting their economy to work for the German war effort? No problem sending their civilians to Germany for forced labor along with about 2 million soldier POWs? I guess the Vichy government had to take pride in demonstrating its independance at Mers-el-Kebir and Toulon because they weren't independant of Germany in any other way until the Free French came back in 1944.
First of all thanks for taking the time and the efforts to review the documents and the events from the british side. Secondly, I'm probably one of the few if not the only french posting comments. To be complete, my grand father was a sailor at Mers El Kebir on July 3rd 1940, so do not expect me to agree on most of your comments ! You're stating that Darlan was no longer trusted, that Gensould was not capable to communicate, that french gave false information to the british, that the fleet in Alexandria surrendered already and thus British navy had full right to "use force". First, "use force" means killing at point blank 1,297 men in 16 minutes. Yep, the fleet was disarmed. I recall my grand father telling me he had to remove the cylender head of his gun days before the battle took place, and that all men and officers from North Africa (Pieds noirs) like him were sent on shore. He saw most of the battle from land, and could only his friends, mostly from Brittany, facing the choice to drawn or swim in the water which were covered with burning fuel. So, yes, the fleet was not a direct threath to the british Navy. Just remember, that the last shot between France and Great Britain was fired .. 125 years ealier ! What about Alexandria ? Well, first admirals Godfroy and Cunningham were french and british, but also brothers in law, that helped the communication. When Cunningham received the same orders than Somerville he showed Godfroy the "utterly repugnant" orders. The french fleet received then the order to fight against the british fleet. The two fleet were extremely close but did not engage. Finally italian planes attacked the Alexandria port and received fires from both fleet. The french proposed a different term than the one proposed by the british, they would empty their fuel tanks and leave the firing mechnism at the french consulate. The agreement was signed and put in place on July 7th 1940. Knowing this, Somerville had other options, and did not try to engage seriously with Gensoul. Furthermore, I don't know how Gensoul would have been informed on the fate of the fleet in Alexandria on July 3rd when it all happened 4 days later his fleet had been attacked !! You are picturing Gensoul as a total idiot merely incapable to overcome the fact that a subordinate comes to negociate. On June 24th Admiral Dudley North, who was based in Gibraltar came onboard the Douglas to Mers-el-kebir to meet with Admiral Gensoul and Admiral Jarry. During that encounter Admiral Gensould informed Admiral North that he would not take action unless ordered by the new governement in France, and that he gave his assurance that the fleet would not surrender to neither Germany nor Italy. Gensoul informed North that armistice clauses were being enforced 6 hours after the signature in Rome of the armistice. North shaked hand with Gensoul and returned to Gilbraltar. He reported to London that the french fleet was ready to sunk itself in case of a German or Italian attempt to size it, and that they were being disarmed. Knowing this, London still sent on July 1st the order to attack the fleet in Mers-El-Kebir. When Somerville reached Gibraltar on July 1st, he met with North, and told him "he was ashamed to share his orders". When sharing the orders with the captains of his fleet, they told him the orders were "disgusting". Somerville sent a message back to London explaining that his men were reluctant to carry the orders and that he was suggesting amending the text to be handle to the french. Admiral Pound replied that there were no change in the orders, and that they had to be carried. On July 3rd, Captain Holland and Lieutnant Dufay met, and they were extremely god friends, but the formalism of the british communication was very badly perceived. First, all communications were made first by lights, indicating to all that the french Admiral was receiving an ultimatum, then the written document handled by Holland was signed not by North nor Somerville but the cabinet of war. While the negociations were on-going, british ships pointed their guns onto the french fleet, clearly indicating their intention. When Holland left finally receiving the answer from the french repeating that they would garantuee that no sheeps would surrendre to the German nor Italian, but that the french could not abide by the british terms, Holland replied in french « Permettez-moi de vous dire d'officier à officier, qu'à votre place, ma réponse eût été la même. » (Let me tell you, as an officer, in your position, I would have replied exactly the same way). Gensoul sent a new message then "Ne créez pas l'irréparable." (do not do what cannot be repaired) and "Suis prêt à recevoir votre délégué pour discussion honorable." (I'm ready to meet your delegate in order to discuss honorably). Waiting for reply, Gensoul and the sailors can see the british planes droping mines at the entrance of the port. Holland is finally coming back, and the discussion happens with Gensoul himself who's asking if mining the port entrance is the way to manage an honorable discussion. He's asking for the option to move to French West Indies. Is that option still on the table ? Aftr some discussion Holland says that the option is still valid and Gensoul accepts to sail with reduced staff if the fleet is under direct German or Italian threath. The message is passed, but there is no flexibility on the British side. At that time, the British receive the message that the fllets in Algiers and Toulon are sailing to support Mers-El-Kebir. Holland takes a boat to his fleet, while men are going to the combat position at 16h25. At 16h55 Somerville's fleet opened fire. 16 minutes later, when only the gun posted on the coast could reply he stopped. 1,297 sailors were killed. More french sailors died during these 16 minutes by friendly fire than by ennemy fire in 5 years ! Admiral North was relieved of his command in December 1940 for his objection to the Mers-El-Kebir attack. Darlan told Churchill the fleet would not surrender to Germans nor Italians, on June 16. On June 17 and 18, boats that can leave Brest are sailing away to Casablanca and Plymouth, while the ships that cannot take the sea are destroyed on site in Cherbourg, Brest, Lorient, La Palice and Verdon. Even De Gaule gives his words to Churchill that the fleet would not surrender. On June 23rd Darlan repeat to Churchill the fleet would not pass onto German nor Italian control. Weygand also makes a similar statement. But I would say if British do not trust French early June anymore, French do not either. Indeed, after the retreat at Dunkerque, Churchill clearly wants to save his planes for the battle ahead and do not commit any air support to help the french troops that are left alone facing Germans. He's not sending back trrops to fight on the continent, and that means that France is totally alone. Prime Minister ask on June 16th the agreement to the british for a separate armistice. London refuses. Paul Reynaud then resigned as he's in a deadlock, neither he can continue the fight nor he can stop it. Petain takes over with only one thing on his agenda, the armistice. Is Darlan a person Churchill cannot trust at that time ? Darlan gave his words, showed he was ready to destroy its own navy when needed, he got no support in return. Darlan was killed on December 24th 1942, one month after his orders to destroy the french fleet rather than surrendering to the german were carried out in Toulon. Darlan was buried right in the middle of the military cimetery at Mers-El-Kebir cimetery. I had the chance to visit the place in 2009 and he and his men are still there, facing the sea where the attack came from. Overall, I do not think 1,297 men died because a french Admiral was sticking to the etiquette, and another could not be trusted. Clearly Churchill was looking to send a message that British troops were ready to keep on the fight, even if that included the killing of former allied troops. Message was received, but don't re-write history as it pleases you.
Fact 1 - Under no circumstances could that French fleet be used against the UK and it's commonwealth. Fact 2 - The French government, what was left of it, was seriously compromised and playing games for which there was no way for them to win. Fact 3 - Under no circumstances could that French fleet be used against the UK and it's commonwealth. Fact 4 - The Germans were never to be trusted. Period... Fact 5 - Under no circumstances could that French fleet be used against the UK and it's commonwealth. Lastly before I listen to some "historian" bemoan the actions of the British government and fleet for what they were forced to do I will take my cue from a grieving mother of one of the French sailors who LOST HER SON on one of the French ships that day. She had the coffin draped in both the French flag AND the British flag. She KNEW that the only hope for France was going to come from the British being able to hold out against the Nazis and her faith in that bore more fruit than a thousand "historians" refusing to look at the fact that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES COULD THE FRENCH FLEET BE USED AGAINST THE UK AND IT'S COMMONWEALTH
The French admiral displayed much of the same class distinction & haughtiness that resulted in WW1 and the deaths of MILLIONS. Tactically, the French admiral should have recognized that a fleet that is moored in the harbor is almost defenseless against a fleet with the maneuverability, armament & positioning of the British. As for this and MANY arguments of historians today? They fail to recognize the minutia of international law, custom & what is "cricket" DISAPPEAR when bullets start flying...especially 15 inch rounds weighing over a ton!
Agree, even if he’s upset with the British admiral sending a “mere captian” he at least could of demanded the British admiral who could of then either come with said captain to be translator or told the French admiral I don’t speak French talk to him he’s my lesion
You know technology outpaced tactics at the end of 1914, right? Blaming the blood letting on arrogance and haughtiness alone shows your abject ignorance of the events in question. It took 3+ years to develop tech and tactics which would overcome the deadlock. Do you think they werent TRYING to work it out?
@@sugarnads what? What tactics?? Even in WW1 that was unacceptable behaviour, if the French government found out he was being lazy with his message (say the Brit’s risked it and ask the French government and got the truth across) he would been court martial see for incompetence and for nearly getting the fleet killed.
You are defending such an attack on a neutral nation? Guess you are pro Japanese, pro Pearl Harbor as well. Oh, we have cornered some old ladies in this room, let's put the boot to them!
When the Allies invaded French North Africa in November 1942 commander Dwight D. Eisenhower struck a controversial deal with Darlan, recognizing him as High Commissioner of France for North and West Africa. In return, Darlan ordered all French forces in North Africa to cease resistance and cooperate with the Allies. Less than two months later, on 24 December, Darlan was assassinated by Fernand Bonnier de La Chapelle, a 20-year-old monarchist and anti-Vichyiste. Touching end to a snake.
I'm an American so take this as you will but as I look back at history there seems to be a lot of miscommunication where the French are involved. I suspect there are subtleties of their culture that we still don't understand. Seemingly inexplicable decisions made time and again. Rather interesting.
@@IcyTorment you are biased. clearly you have adopted moral standards of the brits and brutish Americans. Which are double faced. A smiling face to the front a beautiful facade but at the back holding a knife and the tail of a snake. Dishonorable war mongering and immoral culture that pretends to be virtuous whilst breaking all of their own morals constantly, though carefully veiled by well crafted indoctrination lies and propaganda. Just look at all the atrocities caused by them. They aren't good people. Sure they are genetically and culturally the most similar to myself, but just like most others, they aren't good people. They aren't good at all, everything is shades of grey and the allies both now and then were far far far in the darkest corner together with Germany and many others. Humans are often quite immoral and disgusting as a collective society. Yet they can't see it because they are blind to their own faults.
@naurius there really were options that did not require the French to give up their ships. In fact, most options did not require this. @David Wilhelm- the French navy, during the generation that these Admirals were from, was chaotic and nonsensical in hindsight, but that's hindsight. This man had the chance to continue the fight in one way or another, but chose to soothe his pride at his men's expense. That's not subtlety, it's narcissism.
@@nocensorship8092 what does that even mean? There's lots of allusion, lots of words, but no substance. It's nonsense if there are no details. If there are details, then you'll find that most, if not all, military powers have their atrocities and their benevolence. It's because they're run by humans, which have these same moments, and rely on the strict application of orders.
@nocensorship8092 clearly, you've adopted the self-centered superiority complex of... whatever you are. As you can see, Darland was trying to hide aspects of the armassist from the British. Gensoul was trying to lie about the options given to the French fleet. To put a blanket statement that the Americans and the British are British and have no morals yes unfounded and quite frankly prejudiced. I could say the same for you because you actually sound like a Muslim. Americans and British and westerners at least take action. When it comes to muslims they just talk in circles and never come to an agreement and then you wonder why you're so fractured.
Oh God I can't take this anymore. First Jingles has a 40min video. Then I go to get fish and chips (they were very nice). I comeback to find the history guy has uploaded a video (which was excellent) and, now I find this video which I'm sure will be brilliant. Thanks Drachinifel!
I had expected this video to start with Copenhagen, back then England also refused the existence of an uncommitted possibly competive fleet, there is nothing new aboukt Mers-El-Kebir, other than that the french navy hadn't read the naval historybooks, if they had, they had been much more aware of the danger, they were in.
Best explanation of how this incident turned from allies to mutual distrust, to what appears to be a mix of ego and arrogance leading to death and destruction. Moving the fleet to the Caribbean would appear to have been both the smartest & easiest solution.
Back in the days of sail, that is what would have happened. British Admirals had wide-ranging powers, even of a political nature for obvious reasons. It was also the most successful days of Empire. Strange how historians would conclude that it was "generals sitting in Chateaus far away from the action" which lost many battles in WW1 and early-WW2, rather than allowing front-line commanders and officers to lead from the front, given "objectives", not *specific orders.* True. The specific orders by the Admirality, coupled with Churchill's "settle matters quickly" had 2 main effects: 1) it took the decision out of the hands of Admiral Somerville 2) put emense pressure, by dictated orders (rather than "objectives") Even Churchill must have instinctively grasped that it was a mistake, and he prepared 2 speeches for Parliament. One conciliatory, the other more defiant...
Excellent analysis, I still side with the British on the decision to open fire on the French fleet. That French admiral was such a jerk to be offended at the particular rank of the messenger. To me, by the summer of 1940, one was no longer in a position to justify taking Hitler's Germany at their word, whether on or off a signed document. The whole tension buildup leading to the war was built upon Hitler breaking promises. As far as I am concerned, from the contemporary perspective, that French Fleet was a threat. I believe that the French Fleet in North Africa should have said "To Hell with the Vichy Govt, we will continue to fight!".
Yes I agree, even General de Gaulle justifies the operation by declaring on July 8 on London radio: “[…] by virtue of a dishonorable commitment, the government of Bordeaux had agreed to deliver the ships to enemy discretion. There is not the slightest doubt that in principle and out of necessity the enemy would have used them either against England or against our own Empire. Well, I say it bluntly, they had better been destroyed. " God bless all these sailors.
@@alexh479 Huh except Vichy absolutely never agreed to give the ships. It was already written clearly in the treaty that they would scuttle their ships if anyone tried to seize them. Which is what happened at Toulon actually
@@loicguermeur4256 just because one declares something a mistake later in life does not mean it was not the right one at the time under the circumstances
@@davilanetworks382 but it was. For example, Dakar and the whole french West africa colonies were about to join deGaulle and stood with Vichy until 1942. Regardless all the damages with others french people and decisions. That’s called a mistake. And by the way, The attack on Tarente in octobre was far more usefull.
My father was there serving as the CEPO on board the cruiser, HMS Naiad. His previous ship HMS Ajax was also there. He discussed this action with me two or three times and was always of the opinion that the fleet had sailed there to negotiate and when that failed they had no option outside taking the action they did. He regretted the loss of life but was pleased not to have had to fight the French vessels later on. As his time in the Med was already hard enough; Battle of Crete, convoy protection etc. before eventually being torpedoed and spending a number of hours in the water, it is no wonder that he and the majority of his comrades supported the British fleet erring on the side of caution. Regards
Where French High Command's legendary incompetence after WW1, National Pride, and miscommunication struck home. Somerville still had a good reputation still after this incident in the Royal Navy, so at the very least I'm happy about that.
regarding bad leadership post ww1; man, i really feel for the poor french dudes on the ground when reading about some of the shenanigans vis a vis Generals Gamelin - Weygand including dissmissing the former for the latter as Commander in Chief while the Battle of France is underway. Yikes.
There was a video by the Chieftain that showed the exact same problems in the army: Officers acting only under direct written orders as well as not cooperating with each other. They'd rather capitulate than act without or against orders. Apparently, this was the result of harsh punishments from top brass in several cases where orders had not been followed to the word. It's bad when your men are more afraid of their superiors than of their enemy.
Indeed sir. Admiral Somerville did not open fire at the start... Could he have done anything else?.... from my perspective... No. Somerville did the right thing.
not quite... A part of France that chose to collaborate with the germans...or closed their eyes as log as they remained untouched... anyway, they had very little choice, and british navy did what they had to do
@typo pit love the Anglo-Saxons, they arrange the story as it suits them so that it is always the fault of others. in 1938 the french wanted peace just like the british which led to the munich accords. If you make sense, you should also say that half of the British were for Hitler
@@patrickbotti2357 the British fled to their island, the Soviets had to retreat several thousand kilometers but only the French generals were idiot? Did the American generals do better at the start of the war with Pearl Harbor and the loss of the Philippines? the only difference is that France did not have a sea or an ocean to protect himself nor the possibility of retreating for 1000 km before reorganizing itself
A VERY WELL ARGUED CASE… VERY COMPELLINGLY & COGENTLY EXPLAINED… And your conclusion regarding where the blame must principally lie for this eminently avoidable tragedy, is one which - in my humble opinion - is the only one that the known facts leading up to it, emphatically support.
The French have gone down as a baffling bunch in this era. Admiral Darlan's behavior during Operation Torch which ultimately led to his death, was obstruction at every level. General Girot did the same. Both men presuming they were to lead Allied forces as payment for their cooperation. de Gaulle was likewise difficult to work with, but he lived to explain himself. As such his motives are clearer at least. His methods are dubious at best. History has judged virtually all the French high command in North Africa harshly. And it's episodes like this that make it obvious why. They were obstreperous, arrogant, powe hungry, and had a habit of listening only to what they wanted to hear. They were also shocking in their level of combat incompetence. What's more, they were led by General Petan, a man who had no excuse to be a poor actor in war. France has a proud tradition at arms. It's absolutely baffling these men undermine that tradition at every opportunity to show their mettle.
It happens in peace time that those sorts rise to power in any military. It's not baffling - the reasons for careerists and tactical & strategic incompetents coming to lead is because the leadership in war has almost an antithetical skill set and way of leading to what exists in peacetime military bureaucracies. And you always enter a war, unless you are initiating it which usually means you've prepped, seasoned some new good war leaders, and have a plan, on your back foot and with your least useful leading. I mean, assuming there was no high level interference, if the USN had put to sea (even just for a short cruise in the neighborhood) more of their Pacific Fleet from Pearl Harbour, knowing the Japanese were out in force *somewhere*, they might not have taken the hammering they did and the war might have been shortened. Nobody conceived of a bold first strike like that, but any war fighter, if they put themselves in Japan's inferior but aspiring expansionist military and government, would have recognized that as a bold opening that might really even the playing field. Yes, sending say 2/3rds of the fleet to sea would have had a cost, but it sure might have made a difference to how the first phase of the War played out. I think the Japanese would still have hammered Pearl, but the Americans could then have moved to engage or at least been around to contribute in the first years of US involvement.
Petain was a great leader. France's problem was that they had too few Petain's and too many Communists. Petain was not responsible for the poor state of the French military (he fought bitterly in the interwar period against cutbacks and downsizing) and he certainly wasn't responsible for the ill advised "alliance" with the treacherous Brits or the foolish decision to declare war on the Germans. Petain had a a plum diplomatic "retirement" position in Spain when the war broke out. Franco urged him to stay in Spain but unlike De Gaulle, Petain's sense of honor precluded the possibility of him abandoning his country. He went back, did the best he could to try to extract France from the mess it had gotten itself in to, but France's internal enemies were too much for the old man to overcome. Petain really needed to kill a lot of people (he should have had De Gaulle assasinated abroad as well) but asking an 80 year old man to oversee an internal purge of the scale that was necessary was just too much to ask.
@@scottwillie6389 Declaring war on Germany was the right thing to do, diplomatically speaking, otherwise France would look like a coward by not keeping its promise to Poland after failing to answer to Hitler's annexation of Czechoslovakia the year before. The fact you manage to shit on communists (who had little real power in French politics until the middle of the war) and mention the brits were 'treacherous' seems like you want to paint him as a hero. Remember he was condemned to death for what he did, his quiet agreement to shuttle as many jews he could to Germany upon request being one of many accusations levied against him by French military tribunals.
@@thewitherchannel1053 he was condemned to death by the regime that was installed by the invading Brits and Americans. To the victor go the spoils. France was defeated, and unlike the Germans (who treated the defeated French quite generously and allowed them to maintain their existing government and rule themselves), the Brits demanded the fall of the French government and installation of puppet regime. That they were ultimately too afraid to carry out the sentence demonstrates just how loved and respected Petain was among the true French population.
Mers-el-Kebir convinced Roosevelt that England meant business and that resources sent there would not be wasted. While the French were uselessly busy massaging their hurt pride.
It’s interesting that no one that I can see has brought up Churchill’s thought on Oran/Mers-El-Kebir. He considered that it drove home to Roosevelt that the British were deadly serious about continuing to fight on despite facing the German juggernaut alone (except for the dominions) at that point. Cheers!
@@dovetonsturdee7033 ah, yes, lives, people..they are collateral to british interests, of course. yet you forget that the unacceptability of that same premise is why your heavenly angel regime justified its war with germany in the first place. The Polish border question, which was obviously in german interests to resolve, could not be resolved by force. FAIL
@@ipsoepsum6880 Did you really just try to blame the British for Nazi Germany's actions? Lmao You're criticizing the British for seeing lives as collateral as if Nazi Germany was somehow better than them.
I thought I knew a lot about this attack & many of the other great vids, boy you been doing some research/reading sir! Very well done & absorbing content. Ty
Sadly, crass arrogance and stupidity are not unique to French Naval Officers as there was still a tendency for the upper ranks of European navies to be staffed by members of the upper classes
Excellent presentation, I enjoyed watching this. I have read about this before but you put the issues very clearly and I feel that I have a much better understanding of this very controversial episode. There is an interesting parallel - in 1943, when Italy sought an armistice with the Allies, the Germans feared that the British would get their hands on what was left of the Italian fleet and sank whatever they could find. On 9 September 1943 German glider bombs sank the brand new, 46,000 ton battleship Roma, with the loss of Admiral Bergamini, CinC of the Italian fleet and most of her crew.
Yes but sadly that was not so easy. The Germans were occupying France and the civilians would have badly suffer about such a move because the armistice terms stated that the French fleet would remain neutral.
Had he done so he would have been a national hero whose name would be spoken in honor around the world to this very day; instead he is a footnote of history, rarely noted and mocked whenever he is.
@@psour33 Then even more reason the Fleet must be destroyed, because the same reason would be used to force those ships be used against the Allies.
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@@loremipsum3610 Given the fact the fleet was destroyed when the germans entered toulon, saying the french fleet would have been used against the allies is bullshit. Two modern battleships were lost to the allies during the scuttling in 1942
156k views on such a minor topic, youtube crowd really is knowledge hungry seekers of truth. And lets not forget the wonderful content providers for creating videos like these for us.
Well, it depends how you define a minor topice. If you look at it, everything can be a minor topic. What is important is the consequences of such minor incidents. ANd by the way. how many French sailors died in this one? Twelve or thirteen hundred, or even more?
At Mers El Kebir, the British gave and left every chance to the French. The main responsibility for this lies with the English-speaking French admirals, namely Admiral François Darlan, Admiral Gensoul and Admiral Leluc. Admiral Darlan who from June 13, 1940, in Tours, did not understand at all, or did not want to understand, the legitimate concern of the English explained by Prime Minister Winston Churchill during this inter-allied conference, where he was then Darlan are already thinking of joining Marshal Pétain and Generalissimo Weygand, also Anglophobes, in the camp of defeatist traitors. This British concern was duly motivated by the fear that the Germans and Italians would completely seize the French fleet. At the same time from Mers El Kebir, in Alexandria (Egypt), French Admiral Godfroy reacted very well, understanding very well the very clear demands of the British. We forget or we wrongly hide that during this conference on June 13 in Tours that Prime Minister Churchill will ask a second question asking if it was possible to hand over to the British army the 400 German airmen, shot down since May 10 1940, and prisoners of the French. This request was fully justified by the fear that these airmen would later bomb Great Britain. The President of the French Council, Paul Reynaud, will immediately say YES! and will order Generalissimo Weygand to execute this surrender as soon as possible. What's going to happen ? Nothing good. The German prisoners will be strangely transferred to Toulouse, and therefore, never delivered to our British allies. After June 17, 1940, the defeatist Pétain will free the prisoners to send them back to Germany (which is the second act of collaboration of Pétain) and weygand factieux did not carry out the order of the French Government. Arrived in Germany where Goering, in person, will come to welcome them at the station to invite them and transport them to his Manor of KarineHall to celebrate in a large hearty meal and very well watered, their outings. And of course, all these 400 German airmen, will all participate in the Battle of Britain, where their bombardments will cause many deaths among British civilians. So the British understood very well the reversal of the alliance of the new French government from June 17, 1940, and the betrayal of the Franco-English agreement of March 28, 1940. And the British will still insist on the subject of the French fleet again sends a delegation on June 22, 1940, to Bordeaux where Pétain and Darlan will remain impassive and deaf and will not grant anything confirming this cooling of Franco-English relations. In addition to Mers El Kebir, he let it be known that Admiral Leluc in Toulon would clearly transmit what was an imbecility, to Admiral Gensoul, the dispatch of a French fleet. Of course this message will be heard by British Admiral Cunnigham's Bitannic fleet, who will thus be forced to put an end to the negotiations in progress, and to the truce, by opening fire. Admiral Gensoul dragged out the negotiations for half a day, refusing to receive the British emissary, Captain Holland, whom he knew well from before the war in Paris. And Gensoul will not take any saving measures to keep the French boats away since the beginning of the morning.
@@ralphbernhard1757 In point of fact, one of the options, the transfer of the fleet to the French West Indies, might well have been acceptable to Darlan. Unfortunately, Gensoul never saw fit to inform Darlan, or anyone else in the French administration, of the full text of the British ultimatum.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 With re. to France, your above "standpoint" is pure bias. To every French officer and leader, (loyalty) the future of French N. Africa came first, and sailing the French navy away, or handing it over to British control, would have left Algeria/Tunesia wide open to an attack (most likely by the "hyena" Italy).
Thank you for an excellent documentary. I'm going through all the WW2-related videos, DVDs, and documentaries that I can find, in historical order (which will probably take me as long as the war to get through), and this is undoubtedly one of the best. Your level of research is impressive and your analysis of both sides' options is insightful. I enjoyed it very much.
Had to listen to this twice to make sure I understood Drach's viewpoint. I've struggled to find the rationale behind the FN decisions that led up to this, Whitehall and the Admiralty had drawn some very obvious and clear lines in the sand, the least of which for the FN was just to leave the Med or any other Theatre of War and retire to maybe a French holding in the Caribbean and sit the War out. I know you try and avoid the more recent conflicts but this was one of the best bits of research I've come across regarding the events, Anglo phobia was not restricted to King then.
Yes but unlike the Bombardment of Copenhagen 1807 they aimed at the ships. In Copenhagen they used a church as aim point thereby killing 3500 mostly civilians - even the British press at the time was not impressed.
A very thought-provoking and well-presented analysis. Having examined quite a few sources in this matter, I agree that the tragedy hinged on the negotiations around Admiral Gensoul and his reactions to the situation. IMHO, I believe that Gensoul was motivated by a combination of arrogance and wounded pride that led him to respond as he did. Let's face it, France had lost in a humiliating way to Germany, so national pride was wounded and doubtlessly his too, then the dreaded British turn up wanting to take his fleet out of his control and worst of all, sending a mere captain to negotiate with him! The fact that he rejected Captain Holland immediately and out of hand, refusing to accept any explanation as to Holland's role, speaks volumes for Gensoul's state of mind. One thing that might have helped would have been for Admiral Somerville to meet personally with Gensoul and have Holland act as his interpreter - and I'm not sure why this was not actioned... Still, the fact that Gensoul was so duplicitous with his own government in providing an inaccurate sitrep and options presented to him, seems to indicate that he wanted to manipulate the situation to support his own personal agenda.
Except Gensoul would still have perceived that as a huge slight that Somerville had to get someone of LOWER rank (Holland) to speak on his behalf, he wanted it to be Admiral to Admiral ONLY and given that Somerville barely spoke any French apart from the odd small sentence how well do you think that would have gone over for Somerville?
Of course the Germans used it as a propaganda tool after the fact... Though 3 years later they would do almost the same against the Italian battleships after their capitulation (only without negotiating first).
@@johndoe5432 War crimes? So you think fire bombing cities is totes legit... But you'd draw the line at sinking a couple "neutral" warships to stop them from being captured by the enemy? Except it's legal if the neutral nations are under the orders of an enemy nation, so it's not actually a war crime...
... including the USN, i.e. the unhinged Anglo-loathing Fleet Admiral Ernest King.... Just ask the families’ of the thousands of merchant sailors manning the hundreds of freighters and tankers that went to the bottom off the east coast of the U.S. and Canada without hardly any American ASW response 🤬 during the Kreigsmarine’s Operation Drumbeat in 1942-43....
The Sink the Bismarck film, which was shot during WW2 when the British still didn't want the Germans knowing they had cracked Enigma, used this explanation for how they correctly guessed what the Lütjens/Bismarck's course would be after the engagement with Hood & PoW.
Having nearly come to blows with French colleagues over this precise issue I listened to this with great interest. There are those who remember the Vichy propaganda better than the facts.
The fact that Britain showed up and executed their allies because they were following an armistice so their nation wasn’t burned to the ground and depopulated? That’s not propaganda, this is what we call a war crime
Pinned post for Q&A :)
May I suggest the series on strikes known as the "Bombardment of Ancona" on the 23rd of May, 1915 to be included on "THE" list?
As a French man, the way you present this contrevertial event is really appreciated. You seem to take care to read the facts from a neutral perspective.
I fully understand why the Royal Navy attacked in such a way and I fully blame French command for this. Once defeat was near they should have sailed all ships and crews, with full loads of fuel, munition, equipment out of France and all the way to the US.
French Merchent fleet should have sailed witn full cargos of equipment and goods to Britain to help them sustain themselves in the months to come.
National pride in France suffered greatly from this defeat and a greater commitment from France - before its fall - to help the UK stay in the fight would have helped us keep our honor even if the land campaign was a resounding defeat
I saw the intro for this video, why when a battleship fires some debris came out from the turret ??
@@nitsu2947 That debris is probably the remains of the silk bag of the propellant charges.
Thanks for covering this. I hope one day the 1941 Bombardment of Genoa gets the same treatment.
"Armed with nothing but a cake and 27 candles."
Awh. 😞
Right in the feels dude. Can you imagine having to shoot at someone you were supposed to be at a party with?
Yeah a high capacity assault cake. No cake should be able to hold that many candles. 5 candles is more than enough. Wee need to ban these dangerous weapons of birthday festivities. Think of the kids! But in all honesty I was so releaved to hear that that particular situation was resolved peacefully. Having to fire on the men who were just prior gathered to wish you a happy birthday would have been awful. I don't know if i could have followed those orders.
That's a goddamn heartbreaker.
To look back with a piece of your birth cake in your mouth to your ships 15 inch guns pointed at you ! Dont screw up ! Talk about looking down the barrel .
I'm glad I'm not alone in having my heart sink at hearing that, I'm glad it worked out so well.
The way I read him, Admiral Gensoul was an aristocrat, probably making his rank via political appointment rather than merit and achievement. The fact he never spoke on the matter post war up until his death though, makes me wonder if he truly grasped the enormity his own errors.
French aristocrat who was born after any French royalty were in power. Sure.
@@mad_max21 i have bad news about who took power after the resolution, especially post-empire....
@@mad_max21lol, you must know absolutely nothing about French or European history in general to make this statement. Basically your thesis = after the FR, the existence of aristocracy was deleted and forever more, the idea of lineage, houses/families with century of wealth and political connections and/or a rarefied social class ceased to exist. Sure..
@@RobinTheBotThis guy, right?
@@The_ZeroLinedoesn't really matter a girls scout troop would cause French military to surrender.
As a Frenchman, I really appreciate the effort you gave into thorough researching for this episode.
I entirely agree with your perception of the event. Even though the British had breached some articles of neutrality when firing upon the French vessels, it was vital for this French fleet to be put out of action so long as its loyalty to the Allies was in doubt. Failure to have done so could have had very dramatic results on the war as a whole, not just the Med theatre. I cannot bring myself to blame the British for this, as belligerent Churchill was, since if they had not done it the Allies could have lost the Med, leading to the potential fall of Egypt, allowing the Axis to seize the Middle East, and then I will let you imagine what would be the end result...
Gensoul and Vichy are the culprits of this tragedy. Vichy first because they are traitors, flat out traitors. There is a reason why 1940 to 1944 are regarded as the darkest years in all of French history, not because of the military defeat but because of the collaboration regime. Had these nazi sympathisers not been put in power following the debacle of 1940, and real French patriots kept control of the military, the entire French fleet would have carried on the fight alongside the British just as it had done up to that point. As to Gensoul, not only did he fail his men and let them die in the worst circumstances possible, at the hand of their allies, but his refusal to join forces with the British in by itself shows that Gensoul was willing to collaborate with Vichy/the enemy and lay down his arms and worse, perhaps fight against the Allies. Even still, he could have simply sailed to Fort-de-France and regrouped with the rest of the demobilised fleet. No deaths, no breach of orders. But no, that would have to sensible!
Mers-el-Kébir is also the perfect representation of why Britain always had an edge on France and why it was more successful. In military terms, the quality of British equipment was never excellent, almost always inferior when compared to French equipment. Be it in gunsmithery (beginning in the musket era, France had tougher musket designs and overall established itself as a nation of excellent gunsmiths even until today), troop quality (Britain was the last major European military to finally adopt a professional army while France had a long history of having a well-trained standing army), and in ship design (yes, as much as it seems incredible, French ship designs, starting in the 18th century, were regarded as among the best in Europe very close to that of the Dutch. And guess who thought that too. The Royal Navy itself! Read about the Commerce-de-Marseille class for example), and in to a lesser extent depending on which field we look at, innovations. France had an edge on Britain in terms of means.
BUT! One thing France did/does not have or at least did/does not have consistently throughout history is an effective leadership. Britain always, ALWAYS, had that edge over France. Where France had a single outstanding general, Britain had two. Where France had a single great minister or adviser, Britain had a whole cabinet and a Prime Minister of great cunning. Where France had one successful admiral surrounded by ten incompetent other, Britain had two matchless admirals and countless naval geniuses. France ended up with the best tools, but Britain ended up with the best minds. Look at the Seven Years War, look at the Napoleonic Wars, look at the Invasion of Algeria, look at the intervention in Mexico, look at Franco-Prussian War, look at the Lebel in WWI, look at inter-war France, look at French rifle stocks in 1939, look at WWII, look at Indochina, look at the Algerian War, look at France today. At Mers-el-Kébir, another French incompetent and worthless leader led so many valiant sailors manning some of the better ships of this conflict to their futile deaths while on the other end clear-sighted and thoughtful British commanders had endeavoured whole-heartedly their very best to prevent this tragedy. It has always been so and it will always be so...
Not actually french despite my name but ya I agree. Would have made the Battle for the Atlantic look like a minor skirmish if the French fleet had switched hands.
Votre réponse empile les contre-sens historiques et les erreurs mais c'est surtout
la démonstration d'une d'une rare veulerie ...
Un chien soumis léchant les pieds de son maitre.
Neu Guinea Compagnie Very nice writeup here. Well read
VAN GORP Votre réponse à vous empile la haine et la bêtise mais c’est surtout la démonstration d’une rare rare simplicité...
Un serpent perfide qui n’a ni tête pour penser ni cœur pour avoir d’émotion.
@@blackbokis3064
1° Si vous n’êtes pas français:
J'allais vous répondre point par point quand j'ai relu :
"Votre réponse à vous empile la haine et la bêtise mais c’est surtout la démonstration d’une rare rare simplicité...
Un serpent perfide qui n’a ni tête pour penser ni cœur pour avoir d’émotion."
En fait , vous n’êtes mêmes pas francophone !
Vous ne faites que répétez que ce que vous avez lu en anglais.
Une version anglaise et simplifié de l'histoire de France...
Mais par pitié, ne vous faites pas passer pour un français.
Le pire c'est vous croyez probablement être francophile.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
2° Si vous êtes français:
Vous n’êtes pas digne de ma haine simplement du mépris qu'on doit
à un individu aussi servile et prétentieux.
vous n'avez qu'une connaissance d'autodidacte des sujets sur lesquels vous blablatez,
une absence totale de compréhension des enjeux de l'époque.
Dénoncer la simplicité quand vous n'avez si manifestement aucune formation en sciences historiques n'est qu'une preuve supplémentaire de votre prétentieuse imbécilité.
la conclusion s'impose d'elle-même:
vous n’êtes qu'un simple c.... qui à partir de références superficielles et incomprises
se fait mousser en crachant sur la France.
Pitoyable...
POSTS
Fadm Chester Nimitz was once asked by one of his staff officers "Why do you have a photo of Douglas MacArthur in such a prominent place?" The Answer - "To remind me not to be a Horses Ass." Gensoul could have taken that to heart.
lol, logic be damned by this comment section
Britain committed a war crime, sorry
@@looinrims Great Britain was at War, on her own and fighting for her life. The stakes were high in the extreme. This was no time to go wobbly. For the sake of your loved ones and fellow countrymen, I sincerely hope you never have to go to war to defend your country.
@@wongfeihung6285 with Germany, not France
Also I could replace Great Britain with Germany, does that validate their war crimes?
No
@@looinrims The French surrendered to the Germans, thus their fleet was indirect control of the Germans. Making the French Fleet the enemy.
@@looinrims Once France was a puppet government of Germany, they were at war. You have the mind of a child.
@12:10 "And pray they don't alter it any further". Love this slipped in Empire Strikes Back reference!
Imagine celebrating your birthday with sind french officers and then getting the order to blow up the guys who just gifted you a nice cake.
War is hell. Cake or no cake.
'these are times that try men's souls'
the Cake is a Lie, sorry someone had to, i'll get my coat.
To be fair the French should of seen this coming. They were rolled by the Germans and thought they could wait it out in the middle of the Allies and Axis. Those ships should've been long gone by the time France surrendered.
Bad behaviour among the French - and cake...seem inextricably linked somehow.
A nice touch at the end to give a few moments silence to honour the loss of the sailors.
Joe how are you doing where is peter
@@hoangho6781 I'm ok, I think Bonnie wants to kill me though. I haven't seen Peter since he went skydiving.
I heard he went to China after the skydiving trip haven’t heard him since
Sure does a lot of good for everyone decades after the crime.
Like the tooth
In his book “The Second World War: Their Finest Hour” Winston Churchill indulged in a bit of “what if”:
How vain are human calculations of self-interest! Rarely has there been a more convincing example. Admiral Darlan had but to sail in any one of his ships to any port outside France to become the master of all French interest beyond German control. He would not have come like General de Gaulle with only an unconquerable heart and a few kindred spirits. He would have carried with him outside the German reach the fourth Navy in the world, whose officers and men were personally devoted to him. Acting thus, Darlan would have become the chief of the French Resistance with a mighty weapon in his hand. British and American dockyards and arsenals would have been at his disposal for the maintenance of his fleet. The French gold reserve in the United States would have assured him, once recognised, of ample resource. The whole French Empire would have rallied to him. Nothing could have prevented him from being the Liberator of France. The fame and power which he so ardently desired were in his grasp. Instead, he went forward through two years of worrying and ignominious office to a violent death, a dishonoured grave, and a name long to be execrated by the French Navy and the nation he had hitherto served so well.
Winston was brutal, but on a point.
"How vain are human calculations of self-interest!"
spoken well for a man who was a whore to finance and global banking power so that he could buy nice cigars, live the high life and thus have the "honored grave" in the multicultural era, despite his hatred for the indians who ironically won the war for him (enlisted in ridiculous number to get away from the India that the UK was starving to death), despite his support for gassing "inferior tribes", despite taking a course of action that let half of Europe fall to communism. Well, his grave isn't very "honored" now; it's rightfully sitting in a box in some British square, and the inheritors of the British isles will melt this f#ckwits statue down and use it to make a mosque dome, if anything. The man who sold the world.
Winston also had to prove to President Roosevelt that he (Britain) would do whatever had to be done. I've always had mixed feelings about this, as many people do, but Churchill was begging the US for support, and Roosevelt was dealing with the Isolationist sentiment which constituted a huge segment of the population and Congress. It was high risk, and there really wasn't a happy outcome. Britain couldn't take the risk, and Roosevelt needed proof that Britain really had the backbone to what had to be done.
Well, that is what separates men with spine, and sheeple.
A great many of the tragedies in this world happen because when a man is tested between making that deadly choice between greatness and cowardice, too many cannot step off the path of the easy and compliant.
Well said, all.
DOUGout
Thanks for doing this Drachinifel, this is a part of history that never gets taught here stateside.
You should follow ‘The History Guy’. Regards
Already do, he’s great!
Yea. This gets swept under the rug.
Don't forget about Mark Felton's channel.
adam alton what bullshit school did you go to?
Gensoul's performance here reminds me of the quote from Hunt for Red October when the Konovalov's torps homed in onto itself- "You arrogant ass, you've killed us"
BEST COMMENT AWARD!
Yeah, and if he had followed the brits conditions the same would have happened, except with the civilian population falling entirely under occupation.
Gensoul had no choice.
@@lsq7833 What's even more frightening is the French Admiral going on vacation at the beginning of World War II what the heck is that all about?
@@lsq7833 The civilian population *did* fall under occupation, first of the fascist puppet regime aligned with the Nazis, later to the fascist Axis powers themselves.
+1 Like, I remember that quote!
Could not agree more. Plenty of blame to go around, but Admiral Gensoul shoulders the most as 1) he was the leader on the spot (the buck stops there), and 2) his conduct in placing his personal pride, with his perceived affront at the rank of the British emissary (and it's not like the British sent a mere lieutenant or some such), above his obligation to his fleet/men is unconscionable and indefensible.
One would have to think how Admiral Gensoul's own Captains thought of the snub to their rank. They are the officers an Admiral directly commands and he goes all, men of your rank are not worthy to smell my bad breath. Opposite of leadership.
@@dreamingflurry2729 History has to be seen in the context of the time. The French at the time were no colony being treated like dirt but an ally and a major power.
Your non sequitur about treatment of others by the British through the context of French colonialism is pretty silly. Nobody just jumps up and says "Hey we want to ruled and controlled by some foreign nation, turn us into a colony!"
Finally British propaganda. War. And? So?
Considering Germany's track record at the moment made the British look like saints.
@@dreamingflurry2729 Really ? In a war that truly can be described as being between good and evil, you do not fight cleanly. You fight to win. Your opinion is both sanctimonious and bigoted. I suppose a little crypto fascist like you would have preferred Hitler to have won.
You either on are side or with Hitler? There's no neutral or gray area to hide your fleet there Vichy!
@@dreamingflurry2729 not because they might turn into enemies, but that the enemy you were fighting together might seize valuable assets if those assets aren't moved completely out of reach. What, you're going to trust Hitler when he says he doesn't want your ships? Can we even count the times that Hitler said, "Just give me this, I dont want anything else" and a month later he's making more demands? Hm, Rhineland, rearmament, ships over 10,000 tons, Sudetenland, the rest of Czechoslovakia, Poland ... Now we're supposed to trust that Hitler won't decide he needs those ships and just come take them? Or trust that the new French government, which just broke its promise not to seek a separate peace, will scuttle the ships before the Germans can seize them?
However distasteful the final outcome, the British did what was necessary at the time given their decision to continue resisting Hitler. If Gensoul had just accepted one of the options offered by the British, an option Darlan had already approved of (relocation to French colonies in the Americas), then those thousand or so French sailors would have lived to join the Free French in 1942.
I would have thought sailing to a French colony in the West Indies would have been the one leaving the most possibilities for them..
Unfortunately, when passing on the British ultimatum to his government, Gensoul didn't mention that as one of the options.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 Churchill had no intention to let the ships go to the indies.
@@loicguermeur4256 Your evidence for that comment being?
@@dovetonsturdee7033 at Dakar, Dorsetshire cruiser had the order to sink the Richelieu if he intended to go to the indies. Churchill wanted tje french fleet down.
@@loicguermeur4256 Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide a credible source for your claim?
Cunningham managed to talk the French admiral in Alexandria into giving up his ships peacefully, and he was pretty annoyed at the pressure Churchill laid on to open fire.
This is one of the reasons why, regardless of his reputation, I've always held Churchill in low regard.
Sir Andrew Cunningham was one of the Navy’s most notable commanders of WW2, and any future capital ships the Navy builds would be fully justified if his name was given to one of them. Possibly with an HMS Jellicoe in the same class.
It helps that you have an overwhelmingly superior force at hand and the enemy has no chance to win or escape (as was the case in Alexandria). The significantly more powerful French force in Oran (both in absolute and relative terms - compared to the threatening RN force) did have a chance (and a sizeable portion of it did escape)
Having a month with them in your own port under your guns is not the same.
@@RedXlV And the fact that he encouraged other war-crimes (fire-bombing cities with now outlawed phosphorus-bombs! Churchill was a man of action, a true bulldog, but he was also a criminal IMHO! Killing civilians (directly, if they are collateral damage it is bad enough!) is a no go in war and everybody who does it should be executed IMHO!)
Man, should have called this one as follows:
“Mers-el-Kebir: When Leadership Fails”
Anyhow, great episode.
Failed leadership, I mean that is so WW2 France is it not?
Amen brother.... this is one example... where the French Admiral was determined to fuck over his own command.
@Blesava Konjina Nonsense. The French ships were manned and ready to sail.
The French were given every opportunity to continue with the war effort or to stay out of it, but they chose to make it clear that they would become a nazi-aligned threat to the British war effort and so had to be sunk.
Just imagine being the Admiral of a strong French fleet and abandoning your alliles to fight alongside the Nazis, who had invaded your country. Gensoul was weak and stupid.
@ZebsFrend If the people at the top are incompetent there is not a whole lot anybody can do about it.
@Blesava KonjinaWhy would the British land more troops when France had already switched sides and joined the Nazis?
The point was that the strength of the fleet at Mers was enough to clear the British out of the Med, and seeing as the French were on the side of the Nazis, that fleet had to be neutralised.
While the French performed their coward act, the British kept fighting for 5 more years - the navies of all the other countries invaded by the Nazis sailed to England to keep fighting alongside their allies while the French instead collaborated with the enemy.
This is my favorite 'weird war tale' of ww2. Your voice is perfect for this stuff. Great job with everything.
36:05 "The British were coming" given the naval history between the British and the French.
That's not exactly the kinda of news a French Admiral wants to hear.
The only nation more fearful to hear that would be the Spanish, maybe that's why they stayed out of it, they knew what would happen
@@leodesalis5915 ye probably lol
@@leodesalis5915 I get the deep History between the French and British... but don't forget that it had sort of be "reset" during WWI when both fought as allies... mostly on French soil... also against the Germans. The actual LIVING memory at the time (personal experiences, as opposed to knowledge gained from History books) was of France and GB being allies.
@@Nyet-Zdyes Yeah of course but in England it's always been a joke to hate on the French no matter what happens it's the same as the Americans, people like Churchill and Monty that summed up the stereotypical opinion of our allies
@@Nyet-Zdyes and no matter how far you go back everyone in British history had one reason or another to dislike the French or at least have something to rag on then about
There exists a lesser known communique attributed to Admiral Gensoul which may shed some light on why the British attacked, it reads as follows: "Your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries". I'll get my coat...👍
They just could not wait until he gave the order: 'Fetchez la vache.'
The response was:' I fart in your general direction"
Now that's funny
Hey??? Hamsters are cute and clever animals! Don't insult the little guys. I laughed for a while when I saw that comment. Still one of the best moments in movie history. Monty Pythons Flying Circus never failed to entertain!!!
@@davidsuzukiispolpot I've always to reply with that comment. Just never had the guts to do so! 😃
If that isn't the sum of the French military in 1940- brave men, brave and competent junior and field grade officers Colonel and below- lead by incompetent, arrogant and/or lazy General and Flag grade officers- seems to be a carryover from WW1 - weather they tried to or not.
Whether!
whether or weather incompetent or spellcheck , you decide
it didn't help with many of their leaders aged in their 70's and 80's. Totally out of touch with reality and way behind the times with regards to technological improvements, developments and modern military tactics. The french had more and heavier tanks than the germans, they had a powerful and modern navy. Much of their strategy was of a defensive nature and was exposed when the maginot line was flanked. But as for the navy they had many bases within their colonies to fall back on. But the rapid collapse of their country came before the dithering old cronies posing as leaders could make a decision.
It may seem like a morally right thing to say that it was a bunch of “brave and competent junior and field grade officers” and to blame the leadership, but this is just a simplistic way explanation. Militaries of all countries are lead by senior leadership because over many years it has been shown to be more reliable. Also this is the same excuse Hitler sympathizers often gives to Wehrmacht. “Ooh, but they were just honorable soldiers carrying out orders. They were innocent and all the bad things were done by the SS.” Un...no. Of course the French aren’t Germans but the idea that everything in any war is just leadership’s responsibility seems to be excusing any military from any wrong doing by default.
@Nickolas Schneider Yes, of course I realize that. It is difficult for me to imagine that anyone in the world who has seen at least one documentary about the war would not know it. Yes, I do mean that many people perpetuate the myth of "innocent Wehrmacht" . Of course the people who are known to have committed specific acts of heroism may deserve respect for those acts. I also agree that German soldiers who were drafted to war deserve pity in a sympathetic way. But respect as veterans, if it implies "heroes", or for carrying out their duty, then no.
If it makes you feel better, I am Russian American, and I think that soviet soldiers who participated in any kind of looting and violence against civilians do not deserve adoration or respect simply for having followed the draft orders. Particularly because Putin's russia today has an extremely unhealthy cult like thing about USSR and WW2 especially now when Putin and his supporters really exploit it.
A few years ago I investigated this tragedy and have to say that Drachinifel's analysis is absolutely top notch.
If only all documentaries were this thorough. Well done.
To add, The British got much of their oil from the Persian Gulf and it was shipped through the Suez Canal to the Mediterranean.
As Drachinifel pointed out, when Reynaud came to office, one of his first acts was to sign an agreement with Chamberlain
that said neither France or Britain would sign an armistice or peace agreement without mutual consent.
Churchill agreed to releasing France of this agreement providing either the French fleet either join the British or neutralize their fleet so that the ships could not fall into German hands. So Churchill felt betrayed when he read the terms of the
Vichy - German agreement that the French fleet was to return back to ports in France, and be placed under German guard.
What Churchill did not know , was that Petain had insisted that the French fleet be disarmed in North Africa.
So the bottom line was this , France had the second largest fleet in Europe. So had the French fleet landed in the hands of the Kriegsmarine , the Kriegsmarine and the Italian navy could have cut Britain off much of its oil supply
and the war would have been over for Britain.
Churchill could not put the fate of Britain into the hands of Darlan's solemn word .
The bottom line is this: London made demands without considering the French position.
Bible says to "put yourself in their shoes".
French position: protect Algeria from invasion.
*What did Churchill offer to protect Algeria when the French ships left?*
@@ralphbernhard1757 You have repeated yourself. Refer to your other version of this for my response.
That was in my opinion a very well reasoned and explained story of the events. Thank you!
Fine work, Drach, as always.
This one was exquisite.
".....and that is the ultimate tragedy of war."
even with all the history between Great Britain and France, this was still heart breaking to listen to. Nothing would have made me more proud as a Brit than to have heard a new twist to the battle of the denmark straights, of Hood, Prince of Wales and french battleships working together to sink bismark. 🇬🇧🇨🇵 God bless all involved in this tragedy.
@Gordon Freeman the British 🇬🇧 couldn't afford those French vessels to fall into German and Italian hands. Simple .
@Gordon Freeman I did I was basically agreeing with u . Relax have a cookie.. bhehehhe
AMEN.
Almost every British veteran of WW2 that cared enough to write author Nicholas Pringle ,said they regretted having fought in WW2 , and given the chance to go back would not have fought , their letters were compiled in " the unknown warriors" by Nicholas Pringle
@Gordon Freeman what you remarked is so true. Of course the French weren’t going to let the brits tell them what to do and they fought the land campaign very badly. Britain just couldn’t take a chance of that navy falling to the nazis
Churchill could not trust Britain's future to the promises of one French Admiral no matter how good that person's intentions.
@TheSatanicTicTac you think that truth matter to anglo-american
@TheSatanicTicTac I see your point but the royal navy didn't have a crystal ball
@TheSatanicTicTac exactly everyone from the top brass to the able seaman must of felt a huge sense of shame.
@TheSatanicTicTac France had been ordered by the Axis to render control of their fleet over to the Germans and Italians--the British had reasons to doubt Britain's very survival if the Axis then did what they had done repeatedly and readily many times over recent years: blatantly betray their international agreements for the sake of conquest and opportunism.
So the British ultimatum was absolutely necessary--either Darlan violates the Axis orders of the armistice by not giving his fleet over to German control, or he violates the Axis orders of the armistice. Simply keeping the ships for themselves, in their own control, was not an option unless they became a free navy and continued to fight the Axis.
And the British gave them a whole slew of options, which was entirely reasonable. Remember, they had both the option to just scuttle their ships (which basically satisfies the letter of the armistice, since the ships were going to be supposedly "disarmed" anyway), or to sail them to a neutral nation's ports for the duration of the war (which also basically satisfies the armistice, since a neutral nation is not going to let them be used in the war lest its own neutrality be compromised. And Gensoul rejected the very basis of being an officer--to either make decisions when presented with a situation in which a decision must be made, or to consort with their superiors to get THEM to make a decision based on all the information you could give them. Gensoul both refused to make a decision and actively decided to not give absolutely critical information to his superiors when he was asking for THEM to make a decision for him (despite already having pre-existing orders from his superior officer that laid out what he was to do if his fleet was threatened with seizure or an ultimatum).
The British did NOT want to open fire on the French ships. The French gave them no choice BUT to open fire. Because you can't bet your nation's very existence on a bunch of sailors and officers managing to scuttle their ships no matter what despite orders from the Axis (to which their leadership had agreed to) saying otherwise.
@@russty81ify In fact Somerville's orders began "You are charged with carrying out perhaps the most disagreeable orders that any of His Majesty's admirals have been given ...."
Many point to the fact that the French eventually scuttled ships, but to me, this just highlights the waist of life brought on by the admiral in charge of the French fleet.
Had Mers el Kebir not happened in some way or another, it's an open question whether the French fleet would've scuttled itself since the political calculus at the time would have been completely different. With MeK and subsequent battles the Vichy French knew their fleet was doomed one way or another and scuttling the fleet while daring the Nazis to 'punish' them was a gamble vs not scuttling and getting bombed and bombarded to death by the Brits / US who clearly weren't going to let the Nazis use that fleet in any way other than scrap / salvage.
Military and political leaders have to make decisions with the information they have at the time .
So arm chair historians making claims with after the fact information is worthless .
The absolute worst are generals and politicians who make claims after the war is over .
Most famously , Halder of the OKH .
.
Excellently done, thank you!
@josephdestaubin7426= The Nov. 1942 invasion of the “Zone Libre” by the Germans in response to the Allied operation Torch in North Africa removed any reason for Marine Nationale (the French Navy) to abide by the Armistice clauses.
The logical decision would have been for the French Admirals to order the Toulon fleet to sail for North Africa and join the Allies, since the Pétain-Laval government had no longer any degree of independence from German occupation!
But following the Mers-el-Kébir 1940 attack, there was such an enmity of the MN High Command towards the British that the Admirals in charge at Toulon (Jean de Laborde & André Marquis) did not follow the last-minute order from Algiers of Adm. François Darlan (commander of all French Forces at the time) to send the Toulon MN fleet to Africa and instead chose to follow his previous standing order to scuttle the fleet if Toulon were invaded. Laborde was for that reason condemned to death (later commuted to a 15 year prison sentence) at the end of WW II.
The fleet in Toulon able to cast off for Africa represented about a quarter of Marine Nationale, which at the start of WW II was ranked fourth in the world. While honorable and wildly applauded by the US press, the Toulon 1942 scuttling could have been avoided, and the MN vessels, refitted in US arsenals, could have contributed to the war, both in European and Pacific waters. This is where the July 1940 Churchill decision to attack the MN fleet at Mers-el-Kébir casts its long shadow. __ .
@@christianfournier6862A classic example of the French being pompous asshats, who are only out for themselves and would be more than happy with fucking over everyone else.
Typical of the entire French culture.
I have seen several docs about this event and this vid is easily the best. From the info, to the personal view really comes together quite well! Great job
Very interesting breakdown and analysis. I learned a lot new about the Mers-el-Kebir incident here. Excellent video, Drachinifel.
That moment of silence at end... It really touched a cord. What a gentleman Drachinifel
Gave me chills.
12:03-12:12 A Empire Strikes back reference!? lol " I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." LMAO
Thank you once again for fantastic content. Your channel has become by far my absolute most watched on TH-cam! I have a 45 minute drive to and from work each day and your Drydock videos are all i listen to. I'm up to episode 49. Yours is the most technically competent and interesting channel I know of. Keep up the work!
These early days of WW2 don't get enough attention. They didn't have the pitched battles of the later days, but my goodness, the uncertainty, terror, and betrayal is enough to cause nightmares.
I'm not sure where you get the lack of pitched battles from. Most of the country of Poland was a battlefield. Northern france had huge battles take place. The low countries commited their entire forces and Norway held out against incredible odds. Not to mention the huge battles happening in China. And that's not even a year into the war!
Totally agree with Adam B. There was a lot of blood and desperation since 39 and for many 37. IMHO, the generally told & known story of WW2 in the US is bracketed by Pearl Harbor and the atom bomb. More and more it's just the atom bomb.
@@AtomicBabel Yes, I am American, so my education of WW2 is very American-centric
Such a shame. In England the war is taught as a world war. We learn it all. There is a tendancy to forget about China too much. It's often dismissed as a civil war with added Japan. but it's still taught in passing.
I often wonder how much better America might manage if it's people knew more about the world that wasn't just about how it effects America. I've been over a few times and met amazing and lovely people. But it's astonishing how little that said people know about the world :(
@@Skyhawk1998 isn't it wonderful to have so much info available at your fingertips 🙂 ?
The passion you bring for your condemnation upon Admiral Gensoul is a thing of beauty to hear.
Gensoul was only a honest militaryman who obeyed the orders of the legal government. France, at that time, was neutralized by the armistice treaty., that Pétain never broke, and never had the intention to break. Mers-el-Kébir was in fact nothing but an unuseful crime and felony, and in more, a military failure, since the french fleet was only temporarily a bit lessened by the loss of an old dreanought and other more little ships; the four modern line battleships stayed untouched, except the Dunkerque who was later rather quickly repaired.
@@felix25ize You get nowhere appealing to me to remember Marshall Pétain's honorable nature: je me souviens le Vel d'Hiv. (If you're going to use latter events to justify your position, that opens the field for me to do the same.)
As for Gensoul's supposed honesty - his inability to fully appraise the authorities back home that he was trying to appeal to for a decision is not what I'd describe as the act of an honest man. I'm just a former blue shirt scum, but if I ever bungled a sitrep as badly has Admiral Gensoul failed in his communications to the Vichy government I'd have lost my rating and likely faced time in Leavenworth
@@OtakuLoki Pétain later engaged in collaboration, the nazi pistol aiming his temple, and becoming older ; but never to the point of engaging his fleet and army besides the nazis; and Mers -el-Kébir showed him ( and also to the french population) what kind of allies were the englishes , and that was quite something as a reason for his later attitude ( and the attentism of most of the french population ). With such friends, you do not need ennemies ... De Gaulle, at his burial, even brought him justice, which was impossible in the political climate of the immediate afterwar, when he only had as reasonnable option to change his death condemnation into prison ...
@John Higgins Especially if those arguments are here to drown the fish by defending an undefendable crime...
@John Higgins Neither do I
Thoroughly enjoyed listening to this very concise take on this tragic event. It deserves to be seen many more people. Thank You
Your assessment is spot on, although I would not consider "legality" to carry any weight. Did Hitler consider legality when he ordered German troops into the Rhineland...or invaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway...etc? By the time Mers-el-Kebir happened, legality was a sham. At that point, it was all about survival. By issuing the ultimatum, Churchill was fulfilling his obligation to ensure the survival of Britain. Hitler had thrown legality under the bus long before that.
LOL
In other words "we are excused when we drop bombs and murder other people because the Germans crossed imaginary lines to unite with other Germans and invaded fake countries we set up to keep Europe weak"
The UK loves its Sith vs. Jedi fantasy about the world, even while it sinks in the dumpster fire of wreckage that goes back to the avoidable wars it "won". The British are basically the American neo-cons of the next century.
@@ipsoepsum6880 Fake countries? Like Poland that can trace its history back to 1025, or Norway and Denmark which are even older? You have an interesting world view to say the least. So the Nazis were fine to invade whoever they wanted on the flimsy pretext of "uniting Germans" but the British were wrong to try to stop them? And don't even use words like "murder" when your favourite guys were responsible for the greatest atrocities in history. Seriously.
Well said.
But what legality? Legality made by victors forced on a nation? That is a complicated topic and just saying that it’s legal, like situations like that are covered extensively by some common law and not just made up on the spot especially back then, makes no sense.
@@Icetea-2000 ...um, it's not clear to whom your remarks are addressed. For my part, my point was that "legality" is essentially an irrelevant criterion during a condition of total war, which was the condition in evidence during WW2. Indeed, in an absolute sense, "legality" is a relative, arbitrary criterion at any time. It is determined by political laws, which typically are not anchored in rational or moral principle.
So, if you expected me to disagree with you, I can't accommodate you. The fact that legality is ultimately rooted in the edicts of transient political systems makes it a dodgy criterion at best and a wholly unsuitable criterion at worst for determining the rightness or wrongness of any action.
Interesting that Admiral Gensoul apparently never talked about it, even though he lived another 30+ years.
Are there any contemporaneous French records available?
Narrative in postwar France, (up to today, but more forcefully in the early days) was staunchly De Gaullist, with the man himself actually either ruling or being a major influence in the country. No wonder Gensoul kept quiet on the subject.
He probably never talked about since in hindsight he realized what an absolute idiot he was. And he was again too prideful to admit it. Maybe talking about it is like talking to a captain??
Nobody ever sent an Admiral to interview him.
I laughed a little too hard at that!
@@rogerwilco2 Underrated comment.
This is one of your finest videos. Thankyou for doing it, it is admirable the effort you put in to make sure that fact is the basis for logic. It is such a tragedy which us Brits aren't proud of and for that reason aren't taught about, when it is exactly these type of lessons which everyone needs to be aware of to learn from.
The best analysis of the situation I have ever seen. The sad thing is indeed the tragedy of war in that people die for various reasons and those that fail to justify their deaths and those that try to.
Thank you for this episode and the research to highlight all the events behind the Mers El Kbir incident. I never knew about the sailing of the French fleet to the U.S. was in the orders from the Vichy Government, that really changes in my eye how we Brits played it.
Sir, Your video documentary is spot on. The reasoning, documentation and analysis was refreshing to view here on youtube. I give you a 15 on a scale of 1-10 !!
A very Great contribution to history you have provided here. Thank You
What odd here is that both sides had a willingness to allow the ships to go to the USA. Since the US was still essentially neutral, they could've sent over an escort for the ships to return to America and nobody would've bothered them. Germany would've grumbled but they certainly wouldn't have opened up on an American fleet at this point in the conflict since bringing the US into the war almost 18 months earlier than they actually entered the conflict would've been disastrous to the Axis. So really, the whole conflict comes down to the British fear driving them to a rapid resolution, and the French taking a too 'laissez-faire' approach to something so crucial to the situation. Had both sides actually negotiated at the Admiral to Admiral level to start with, even with guns levelled at each other, they could've probably come across the American solution at the same point, kept it quiet and had the US intervene to help out, thus the only potential win-win in the whole mess. Instead, we got tragedy all the way around and 80 years later... still anger and hatred. Again, the human factor driving unnecessary loss.
Great idea if it could have been pulled off but what happens if whilst you wait the long time for the Americans to be informed, agree, put to sea and then cross the Atlantic, the French Fleet are sent to France to be seized or seized in north Africa by the Axis (Italians you would suspect) or dispersed around multiple ports and you've lost the ability to bottle them up if it all goes wrong, with the state of the French government of that time (and the events leading up to) no deal could be relied upon that didn't have immediate effect. The Royal Navy could blockade Mers-el-Kebir with a sufficient force to keep the French there or fight the Italians, there wasn't enough ships in the med to do both. Whatever outcome it was going to be it had to be decided that day.
It wasn't that crucial at the moment, at least from my read on it. The French were signaling in their own French way that they didn't expect the Germans/Italians to do much of anything with the fleet for a while since they were occupied elsewhere on land. It was the fears that have been outlined that really panicked the British into wanting this decided so rapidly. The ships weren't going anywhere and any land forces to try and take them by force would've taken weeks to assemble and get marching. In that same time, the US could've had a small naval force there and escorted them away. They could've even reflagged them as US ships and had them sitting in the middle of the Med for a week or so for a US ship to start escorting them. There are a lot of tricks that could've been employed to keep them out of both British and German/Italian hands which would've been the point.
I think it unlikely that the US would have agreed to escort the French ships - it simply wasn't politically viable for the US. Many in the US and elsewhere, most especially in the US congress, would've seen that as a US fleet escorting British prizes of war and thus as a violation of US neutrality.
Captain Holland pointed out to Gensoul (or was it one of his subordinates?) that both his orders and the British ultimatum allowed the French ships to go.
Sommerville didn't speak french. Gensoul didn't speak english. So they couldn't negotiate directly with one another.
A chance to have a chance to grab a bunch of French warships to look at? Yeah, they would've taken them, even Congress isn't that stupid. It was okay'd by both sides so there wasn't a political cost anyway. No significant risk.
@@SHcinema Sorry but that is wishful thinking, the german navy was well outnumbered, the addition of the modern French leaflet would have more than doubled the german capability not necessarily in number but type and modernity. No choice surrender the ships or face destruction.
A comprehensive and insightful look at tragic events. My thoughts on this are more clear with the behind the scenes descriptions that you have related. Fascinating video. My thanks!👏🤨
There is another factor that Drachinfel missed that I believe is important to think about. At this point in time France had been knocked out of the war, and Britain was effectively alone and facing a probably invasion threat ("Operation Sealion"). This was not a time for half-measures; Britain had to show Germany and the rest of the world that it was serious about fighting to the end. Whatever the other facts are about the Mers-el-Kebir attack, the destruction of the French fleet showed everyone that Britain was not going to roll over die, and hence that Germany was not going to gain yet another easy victory. It has been argued that this was one of the factors that convinced Hitler that any invasion attempt was unlikely to succeed, allowing Britain to continue the fight and act as a platform for the final defeat of Germany.
But there has not been a destruction of the french fleet ! There were four french dangerous modern line battleships that Churchill feared; only one has been damaged, the Dunkerque, and rather quickly repaired; the Strasbourg escaped ( by painting in yellow an officer of the Hood with the coloured splashes of her shells ) and the Richelieu and the Jean-Bart were not there; but the destruction of the old dreadnought Bretagne and other more little vessels made more than 1300 casualties. In fact, only an unuseful and treatrous mass murder... Actually, no place for complacency ...
@@felix25ize How can it possibly be described as traitorous?
France had capitulated to Germany and so Great Britain owed no allegiance whatsoever to Vichy Government France.
@@DraigBlackCat Do you mean that not stabbing in the back our fleet with more than 1300 casualties would have been an act of allegiance to Vichy ? Btw; the fleet was docked, neutralized and not , by any mean, destined to attack Great Britain, only to potentially protect north Africa. Of course, if you wanted to be more than 100% sure of that, the best was this ruthless stalinian way mass assassination (there are many people who may, one day or another, harm me, do you believe that I will preventively murder them for that reason?). I repeat: no place for complacency ...
The truth is that when Germany invaded France, the French admiral refused any of the five options that would've saved the French Mediterranean fleet. Yet when it was certain the allies were going to win the war- the French scuttled their fleet as promised to the Germans- that's screwed up, stupid and vindictive.
@@stephenmcdonagh2795 As promised to the britishs, not to the germen. ("answer selected " ; Yes but by who ?)
Thank you Drachinifel. It is excellent explanation of this historical episode. Excellent analysis.
Gensoul was clearly in the wrong refusing to talk to a captain, but on the second attempt where he actually met Holland they probably should have actually sent Somerville along side Holland in an attempt to appease the bastard. If he’s such an egomaniac maybe Somerville showing up would have buttered him up.
In those days I wonder how in touch he was with what had been going on. Its bad enough there would be no TV in those days but on board ship there would have been no newspapers, no cinema news and possibly no news radio when not in port and perhaps no contact with civilians. He would doubtless have been getting military news and orders. The political situation and the subjugation that the vichy treaty meant might not have sunk in. he could have been thinking he was head of a fleet for a politically viable and independent part of France so business as usual - so what if we lost a bit of the north, why should i betray France and hand over to a foreign power and upset the apple cart.
@@redf7209 there definitely were tvs in those days
@@bluebird1046 pretty sure he couldnt watch cnn. The British experimental TV service was suspended for the war.. Tv transmitter towers were not widespread either. I don't think the French had one at all and if they did I'd bet the war they didnt have any on their ships
Absolutely. People like that are very easy to manipulate; all you have to do is flatter them. The method of getting your way with a narcissist is to pretend to be as much in love with them as they are with themselves (Mr Trump anyone?).
I'm in agreement with Croweater, if Admiral Somerville had negotiated directly with Admiral Gensoul and took Captain Holland as his interpreter with the written terms things might have gone very differently. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. A lot of the French military leadership also hated the British and regarded them as willing to fight to the last drop of French blood. After the sinking any stray French warship would have a tough choice on their hands but the intact French navy falling into German and Italian hands would probably meant an axis victory and a stronger, better equipped and earlier invasion of Russia, Hitlers real goal and they might have taken Moscow and knocked Russia out of the war. I can see why Churchill gave that order.
My grand father witnessed it. He was on an ammunition transporter, and the Harbour Captain forbade his ship to remain with the Other ships. He was based outside the harbour and when they saw the Royal Navy coming they just let the Anchor go, and escaped.
I like the Star Wars reference he worked in there.
Quick, witty.
lol, nice one Drach!
An enthralling education.... feels like I was there. To err is human... so many lives at the mercy of I'll thought decisions.... truly the tragedy of war, thanks mate
Drach : you’re using Darlan’s photograph for Gensoul.
God, now I'm super bummed out. But thank you for that. This was a skillful and obviously well researched retelling and analysis of war history that did not seek to glorify combat. In fact, the editorial thesis placed a premium on avoiding bloodshed and not treating exchange of fire as inevitable. I wish more war historians took this approach with their recounting of historical events.
It wasn't mentioned or isn't much acknowledged but the attack also cemented other Allied and neutral opinions (especially the USA) that the UK was going to continue fighting the war in mid-1940.
_DK_ - it also had a sequel in the Invasion of Madagascar.
The allies were concerned that the Japanese would use it to cut off India - a genuine fear - meaning that it had to be taken from the Vichy regime. The USA was deliberately kept out of the invasion so that the British would take the propaganda hit, keeping the Americans’ image as a “clean” peacemaker
Again, more casualties were caused on the Allies by the French than upon the Axis...
That claim is repeated on and on by the British propaganda trying to both overestimate its achievements and importance in WW2 as well as justify this action of outright agression. Drachinifel at least didn't buy it (he mentions that consideration being of secondary importance at best to the British decision makers at the time).
@@VersusARCH If Britain didn't hold out the war in Western Europe would've been over and America would've just been in the Pacific. How supportive of Russia would America have been if It was just Hitler and Stalin fighting it out in Eastern Europe.I understand the hard feelings on this topic but this is on the Vichy and Free French governments for not seeing them ships as a future headache and having them leave when the Free French government did.
@@robert48044 Germany would have still attacked the USSR and everything would have ended more or less the same (UK would reenter the war as France did).
I come to opinion why European forces were defeated by German Nationalist. . They became to liberal pacifist as they are today . To hear The French President this year say liberalism is the only way . Haaaaahaaaaaa! The reports from the Germans that most there weapons were found only dropped once and most of there weapons were abandon leads to the liberal policy of putting weak leberalist in charge.
The French admiral was guilty of the sin of pride.
Yet again enlisted get fucked over by officer pissing matches
His options were to give the ships to the brits or the fascists. Regardless of what happened to them after the war, failure to give them over to the British is a colossal ethical and moral failure, to the point of being disgusting
@@About37Hobos but he had the option to do neither (by essentially going on vacation in America) and he instead chose to let 13,000+ of his own men die for no reason
Edit: 1,300+ not 13,000+ 🤦😅
The whole of France was guilty of pride after having won world war 1, this in conjunction with their misunderstandings of how war as a whole would develop is what ultimately led to their downfall.
The entire affair had nothing to do with any threat by the French fleet. It was brought on by a political miscalculation by Churchill. Catapult was Churchill's way out of his miscalculation.
ne thing is for sure : the Dunkerque was a beautiful ship.
Indeed. A real shame she never got to go cruiser killing.
@@jamesm3471 Then again, only two battleships from the 1930s/40s ever got into a situation where their presence was justified. Failure is the norm for battleships of that time.
@@bkjeong4302 The Washington and South Dakota at the 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal?
@@JohnE9999 Washington at 2nd Guadalcanal (South Dakota didn't contribute to that battle) and Duke of York at North Cape.
Everything else never justified their costs.
@@bkjeong4302 King George V and Rodney vs. Bismark?
Thank you for this in depth look at one of the lesser known episodes in naval history. One is forced to wonder how many of these there are, most glossed over because of history tending to focus on major events and even that interpretation having inaccuracies and misconceptions in various places. And some tragedies we’ll never even know about, mainly because most if not all of the individuals involved did not survive the incident.
Gensoul sounds like, as they say, "le huge prick"
Le Très huge prick
Le Très Grande Prick.
"le flacid prick"
Le gros traître.
Le grand con
Very fine analysis, Drach. I've never heard such an in depth and clear study of this horrible tragedy. Thank you!
One must never forget the fact Darlan had, even pre-war, always taken care of his own self promotion and preservation regardless of everything and everyone. Even at the expense of his own service branch and country. The man never stopped playing his own game, to the bitter end.
What an excellent well thought-out synopsis by an intelligent person. What a terrible tragedy, again due to human pride. Thank you for your time and effort in making this content.
This action had nothing to do with human pride. The primary reason why it took place was because of a political miscalculation by Prime minister Churchill combined with panic in the Roosevelt administration- in which Churchill made a poorly worded statement to U.S. President Roosevelt which resulted in FDR drawing a conclusion which Churchill had never intended. This action was Churchill's way out of that miscalculation, and had nothing whatsoever to do with any actual threat posed by the French Navy.
@@manilajohn0182 Yes correct.
Of course, Washington DC knew of the perfidious nature of the European empires, incl. London/British Empire.
*And of course if London and Washington were such "great friends" as our history wish to lead us to believe, then why on earth would Washington DC have kicked the meddling "London lord"-types off the American continent?*
After 2 wars (1776 and 1812), and London initially siding against Washington DC during the American Civil War and the Mexican American War (later on), it was obviously quite clear to Washington DC that London was a meddling "perfidious Albion" trying to gain a foothold on the North American continent, and turning it into a "Europe 2.0".
Luckily for the American people, the USA had "weak neighbors to the north and south, and only fish on both sides" (loosely quoting Bismarck).
Imagine if Canada and Mexico/Spain had been stronger, and not been "weak neighbors"...
You would have been turned into a "Europe 2.0", with London "hopping on the scale this side or that", during war as well as during peace, just "balancing powers", as they proudly self-confessed to doing across the English Channel.
@@ralphbernhard1757 I would agree with you, but only if, by "...the perfidious nature of the European empires...", you're referring to every empire which has ever existed there. Every nation in history has looked to its own interests first- and "In time of war, laws are silent". It's not pretty, but there it is. Every nation's indulged in that, including the U.S. They'll do so if they see the need arising, or if they may stand to benefit from it.
I certainly agree with you regarding we Americans being lucky regarding Bismarck. It's a prime example of Alexandrian frontiers- and Mackinder's geopolitics and geostrategy in action, but in the outer crescent rather than the pivot area. The difference between the two is that the pivot area has potentially far greater access to resources.
@@manilajohn0182 Yes, correct of course.
All existing and aspiring empires are "perfidious by nature". Self-serving, more or less.
Or as I always say "nobody does anything for free", and that includes all empires.
Some might be more benevolent than others, but there is always a "price tag" for "help", and "help" is often self-serving.
It reminds me of the airline safety message of "put on your own oxygen mask first before helping others".
That's how "empires" tick. They "put on their own oxygen mask", and only then "help others"...sometimes :-)
Mackinder is great.
But unfortunately London did not seem to understand nor follow their own geopolitical "logic", and somehow missed the USA's rise "across the pond".
Or the fact that there might be some long-term grievances resulting from history.
Logic almost dictates that London should have sought to unite Europe, not play their "divide and rule" games with the continental powers.
After WW1, they descended one rung, and after WW2 they would lose their markets to the USA, their sphere of interest in Central Europe/Baltics/most of the Balkans to Moscow, the nr.1 position as "ruler of the world, the privilege of "Pax Britannica, both to the USA", their self-determined role of "balancer of powers" for the continent, their stated goal of being the "decider of wars" on the continent, and finally their "Empire".
@@ralphbernhard1757 Personally, I don't see Britain uniting Europe as a realistic proposition. Language barriers alone precluded such an attempt. Toss in self- aggrandizement, mutual suspicions, and animosities based on historical confrontation, and that's a non- starter. Humanity's struggling to do that even today, and we had one nation as holding practically every military, economic, and political card available at the helm- and a number of other major willing partners. Human beings aren't ready for it even today, and judging by current events, they likely won't ever be.
In any case, Britain isn't at the center of what's wrong in the world. That position is held by man himself, regardless of nationality.
I don’t see the controversy. The Poles refused to surrender in any official capacity, evacuated their Navy and fought on with the Allies until Germany's surrender. The French created a collaborationist regime instead of evacuating their naval assets. They were fair game however slight the possibility of their ships ending up in German hands.
Lies upon lies. Vichy was a neutral state, the attack on Mers-El-Kébir is what gave them the perfect excuse to collaborate with the Axis. Even though in 1942 when Germany annexed what remained of France, on direct order of Admiral Darlan, they destroyed what was remaining of their navy to prevent it of being captured by the Germans.
@@anaon7025 I think your point is that the French were not monolithic in WWII. The collaborationists got an excuse while others, like Darlan, tried to walk the tense middle road of preserving what their nation had without it being destroyed by either side in the war (which failed, by such a time you can't fence sit and they should have did what the Poles and others did despite the cost to their nation that they left behind).
There is more there too. The Resistance and its infinitely numerous factions wound up fighting one another more than they did the Nazi's or Vichy.
@@anaon7025 Neutral state my arse. You deported Jews and fought the Allies in Operation Torch. The Poles had huge moral high ground over French actions.
@@PolakInHolland Absolutely mad how the French narrative is still so much that they did a great job in WW2. Such a bad look to not admit to faults or mistakes.
See how they dealt with getting caught doing state terrorism in New Zealand in the 80's. Such noble behaviour en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior
@@anaon7025If Vichy only was needing an "excuse" to collaborate with the Nazis, then they were hardly very neutral, were they?
Gensoul witheld the most viable option of sailing for the French west indes. He effectively lied and bears most responsibility for the outcome. The French needed to keep their fleet intact without handing it over to the axis. The fleet was virtually the last bargaining chip that the French had. The threat of handing these ships over to the British was sufficient to keep the Germans out of the South of France. Relocating to the French West indes could have kept the ships out of both British and German hands.
Could that have put the ships in danger of being take. By the Japanese? I don’t know the answer, just asking the question.
@@pathutchison9866 This was 1940. The Japanese were not in the war yet. This would have moved the ships to the other side of the atlantic, close to the USA. Apart from a couple of submarine journeys, the Japanese never visited the Atlantic.
@Michael The best option was for them to move to a french west indian port. They would have remained out of reach of the Germans and Italians and served as a bargaining chip for the Vichy government. I doubt that the german u boats would have been too much trouble for them. They could have sailed out of the danger zone in convoy at 22 knots.
PS. For his arrogance, Gensoul denied a part of this bargaining power by loosing ships, he let his sailors down, he lied about his options, all for the sake of his pride. The French should have shot him.
@Michael He could not turn the fleet over to the british because its mere presence was keeping the germans out of the south of france. As for submarines, wolf pack tactics had nt been developed yet and the type 7C was only good for about 7 knots submerged and about 14 knots on the surface. The only subs on the area were french.
That was seriously interesting. Great doco mate. I agree entirely with your take on the bottom line, as far as responsibility is concerned. Yet another example from history, of ego causing disaster.
Your analysis,& judgments are spot on...I agree 100%.
Drachinifel, where the damnable decisions of an unworthy officer doomed 1300 of his men, your thorough, thoughtful analysis brings honor to their sacrifice for a new generation. This was a masterful video. More than explaining a moment in the past, you have given a lesson and a warning to leaders from men who no longer could. Bravo Zulu.
Probably the best historical vid I've ever seen. If YT did awards like BAFTA, it would win something.
“Altering the deal, and pray I don’t alter it any further”...nice! Good use of a line from that other historical documentary
This was a wonderful episode. Great analysis. One positive effect of this action was that Roosevelt, who was not sure of Churchill's tenacity to continue the fight against Germany, was convinced of it and began to foster the provision of assistance as far as the Congress and population would allow.
Thank you for all your hard work!
I don't think Admiral Gensoul actually cared so much about the fact that the British had sent a captain to negotiate with him. I fully believe he made a fuss about it to buy his fleet time to come up to steam and to see if the British were actually serious.
In my opinion, Admiral Gensoul wasn't entirely unjustified in refusing to hand over his fleet or scuttle it in harbor. In hindsight, his best options were to join with the Royal Navy or scuttle them, but he did not have the gift of hindsight. As you had mentioned, many observers on both sides thought the Brits were mere weeks away from brokering a peace with Germany. Mers-el-Kebir was the first test of the Vichy government's legitimacy, and just surrendering the ships would have dire consequences for the French afterwards both for the sailors, for the Vichy government, and for the fleet as a whole. From the French perspective, the Vichy government was France's best bet at resuming a "normal" life with some degree of autonomy. Granted, they couldn't really trust the Germans, but what choice did they really have? If they opposed the Germans and the Brits did seek a separate peace, then they'd be subjugated in whole, like the Poles. There's no telling what would happen to the families of the sailors and officers. The Vichy government would seem weak and unwilling to back German interests (remember, the Vichy government staying neutral also served Axis interests, as its fleet wouldn't fall into British hands, and the French colonies in North Africa wouldn't have to be occupied by Axis troops). If this is the case, Vichy France becomes a liability the Germans would be unlikely to put up with. There is some degree of validity behind this, as when the Vichy troops in North Africa put up only a token resistance against the Allies in Operation Torch, the Germans invaded Vichy France and tried to take the ships at anchor in Toulon.
Granted, I'm not slamming the British, either. They had no reason to trust the Germans would keep to their word, and so long as the French fleet existed, they would always pose a threat to the Royal Navy. Both sides did the best they could in a really bad situation. As unfortunate as it was that so many French sailors had to lose their lives and see all those ships sent to the bottom, the deed had to be done one way or another.
This ignores the same option that Gensoul ignored, the ability to remove the threat by relocating to French colonies in the Americas.
@@kemarisite In effect, that would show the world that the Vichy government was weak and lacked a will of its own. Again, this was the *very first* serious test of the Vichy government's legitimacy.
I'm not just pulling this from my ass, either. Mers-el-Kebir would lead to most French colonies remaining loyal to the Vichy government rather than de Gaulle, with events like the Battle of Dakar (with the imcomplete French battleship Richelieu opening fire on the Royal Navy force rather than scuttling), the Battle of Madagascar, and the initial fighting between Vichy French and Allied troops during Operation Torch.
@@XXStoogieXX the very first test for the new government, and yet the fleet in Alexandria agreed to be interned. Somehow, I'm not buying the significance you're giving it.
@@kemarisite The fleet in Alexandria and the fleet in Plymouth and Portsmouth were all in British ports and not really subject to the will of the Vichy government. Nobody (including the Axis) expected the French ships to leave British ports in one piece. The fleet at Mers-el-Kebir on the other hand was fully autonomous, and the British had to come to them to enforce their will.
@@XXStoogieXX so, as I understand your opinion, Vichy, or rather Gensoul since he was actively denying his government important information, HAD to show the world they/he could make their own decisions by refusing all British demands? And then, having shown off its independance, Vichy had no problems following Getman orders to strip jews of citizenship and send them to the death camps, along with all the other undesirables as the Nazis defined them? No problems putting their economy to work for the German war effort? No problem sending their civilians to Germany for forced labor along with about 2 million soldier POWs? I guess the Vichy government had to take pride in demonstrating its independance at Mers-el-Kebir and Toulon because they weren't independant of Germany in any other way until the Free French came back in 1944.
First of all thanks for taking the time and the efforts to review the documents and the events from the british side. Secondly, I'm probably one of the few if not the only french posting comments. To be complete, my grand father was a sailor at Mers El Kebir on July 3rd 1940, so do not expect me to agree on most of your comments !
You're stating that Darlan was no longer trusted, that Gensould was not capable to communicate, that french gave false information to the british, that the fleet in Alexandria surrendered already and thus British navy had full right to "use force".
First, "use force" means killing at point blank 1,297 men in 16 minutes. Yep, the fleet was disarmed. I recall my grand father telling me he had to remove the cylender head of his gun days before the battle took place, and that all men and officers from North Africa (Pieds noirs) like him were sent on shore. He saw most of the battle from land, and could only his friends, mostly from Brittany, facing the choice to drawn or swim in the water which were covered with burning fuel. So, yes, the fleet was not a direct threath to the british Navy. Just remember, that the last shot between France and Great Britain was fired .. 125 years ealier !
What about Alexandria ? Well, first admirals Godfroy and Cunningham were french and british, but also brothers in law, that helped the communication. When Cunningham received the same orders than Somerville he showed Godfroy the "utterly repugnant" orders. The french fleet received then the order to fight against the british fleet. The two fleet were extremely close but did not engage. Finally italian planes attacked the Alexandria port and received fires from both fleet. The french proposed a different term than the one proposed by the british, they would empty their fuel tanks and leave the firing mechnism at the french consulate. The agreement was signed and put in place on July 7th 1940. Knowing this, Somerville had other options, and did not try to engage seriously with Gensoul. Furthermore, I don't know how Gensoul would have been informed on the fate of the fleet in Alexandria on July 3rd when it all happened 4 days later his fleet had been attacked !!
You are picturing Gensoul as a total idiot merely incapable to overcome the fact that a subordinate comes to negociate. On June 24th Admiral Dudley North, who was based in Gibraltar came onboard the Douglas to Mers-el-kebir to meet with Admiral Gensoul and Admiral Jarry. During that encounter Admiral Gensould informed Admiral North that he would not take action unless ordered by the new governement in France, and that he gave his assurance that the fleet would not surrender to neither Germany nor Italy. Gensoul informed North that armistice clauses were being enforced 6 hours after the signature in Rome of the armistice. North shaked hand with Gensoul and returned to Gilbraltar. He reported to London that the french fleet was ready to sunk itself in case of a German or Italian attempt to size it, and that they were being disarmed. Knowing this, London still sent on July 1st the order to attack the fleet in Mers-El-Kebir. When Somerville reached Gibraltar on July 1st, he met with North, and told him "he was ashamed to share his orders". When sharing the orders with the captains of his fleet, they told him the orders were "disgusting". Somerville sent a message back to London explaining that his men were reluctant to carry the orders and that he was suggesting amending the text to be handle to the french. Admiral Pound replied that there were no change in the orders, and that they had to be carried. On July 3rd, Captain Holland and Lieutnant Dufay met, and they were extremely god friends, but the formalism of the british communication was very badly perceived. First, all communications were made first by lights, indicating to all that the french Admiral was receiving an ultimatum, then the written document handled by Holland was signed not by North nor Somerville but the cabinet of war. While the negociations were on-going, british ships pointed their guns onto the french fleet, clearly indicating their intention. When Holland left finally receiving the answer from the french repeating that they would garantuee that no sheeps would surrendre to the German nor Italian, but that the french could not abide by the british terms, Holland replied in french « Permettez-moi de vous dire d'officier à officier, qu'à votre place, ma réponse eût été la même. » (Let me tell you, as an officer, in your position, I would have replied exactly the same way). Gensoul sent a new message then "Ne créez pas l'irréparable." (do not do what cannot be repaired) and "Suis prêt à recevoir votre délégué pour discussion honorable." (I'm ready to meet your delegate in order to discuss honorably). Waiting for reply, Gensoul and the sailors can see the british planes droping mines at the entrance of the port. Holland is finally coming back, and the discussion happens with Gensoul himself who's asking if mining the port entrance is the way to manage an honorable discussion. He's asking for the option to move to French West Indies. Is that option still on the table ? Aftr some discussion Holland says that the option is still valid and Gensoul accepts to sail with reduced staff if the fleet is under direct German or Italian threath. The message is passed, but there is no flexibility on the British side. At that time, the British receive the message that the fllets in Algiers and Toulon are sailing to support Mers-El-Kebir. Holland takes a boat to his fleet, while men are going to the combat position at 16h25. At 16h55 Somerville's fleet opened fire. 16 minutes later, when only the gun posted on the coast could reply he stopped. 1,297 sailors were killed. More french sailors died during these 16 minutes by friendly fire than by ennemy fire in 5 years ! Admiral North was relieved of his command in December 1940 for his objection to the Mers-El-Kebir attack.
Darlan told Churchill the fleet would not surrender to Germans nor Italians, on June 16. On June 17 and 18, boats that can leave Brest are sailing away to Casablanca and Plymouth, while the ships that cannot take the sea are destroyed on site in Cherbourg, Brest, Lorient, La Palice and Verdon. Even De Gaule gives his words to Churchill that the fleet would not surrender. On June 23rd Darlan repeat to Churchill the fleet would not pass onto German nor Italian control. Weygand also makes a similar statement. But I would say if British do not trust French early June anymore, French do not either. Indeed, after the retreat at Dunkerque, Churchill clearly wants to save his planes for the battle ahead and do not commit any air support to help the french troops that are left alone facing Germans. He's not sending back trrops to fight on the continent, and that means that France is totally alone. Prime Minister ask on June 16th the agreement to the british for a separate armistice. London refuses. Paul Reynaud then resigned as he's in a deadlock, neither he can continue the fight nor he can stop it. Petain takes over with only one thing on his agenda, the armistice. Is Darlan a person Churchill cannot trust at that time ? Darlan gave his words, showed he was ready to destroy its own navy when needed, he got no support in return. Darlan was killed on December 24th 1942, one month after his orders to destroy the french fleet rather than surrendering to the german were carried out in Toulon. Darlan was buried right in the middle of the military cimetery at Mers-El-Kebir cimetery. I had the chance to visit the place in 2009 and he and his men are still there, facing the sea where the attack came from.
Overall, I do not think 1,297 men died because a french Admiral was sticking to the etiquette, and another could not be trusted. Clearly Churchill was looking to send a message that British troops were ready to keep on the fight, even if that included the killing of former allied troops. Message was received, but don't re-write history as it pleases you.
Heart breaking reply. Thank you. Merci beaucoup.
Fact 1 - Under no circumstances could that French fleet be used against the UK and it's commonwealth.
Fact 2 - The French government, what was left of it, was seriously compromised and playing games for which there was no way for them to win.
Fact 3 - Under no circumstances could that French fleet be used against the UK and it's commonwealth.
Fact 4 - The Germans were never to be trusted. Period...
Fact 5 - Under no circumstances could that French fleet be used against the UK and it's commonwealth.
Lastly before I listen to some "historian" bemoan the actions of the British government and fleet for what they were forced to do I will take my cue from a grieving mother of one of the French sailors who LOST HER SON on one of the French ships that day. She had the coffin draped in both the French flag AND the British flag. She KNEW that the only hope for France was going to come from the British being able to hold out against the Nazis and her faith in that bore more fruit than a thousand "historians" refusing to look at the fact that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES COULD THE FRENCH FLEET BE USED AGAINST THE UK AND IT'S COMMONWEALTH
The French admiral displayed much of the same class distinction & haughtiness that resulted in WW1 and the deaths of MILLIONS. Tactically, the French admiral should have recognized that a fleet that is moored in the harbor is almost defenseless against a fleet with the maneuverability, armament & positioning of the British.
As for this and MANY arguments of historians today? They fail to recognize the minutia of international law, custom & what is "cricket" DISAPPEAR when bullets start flying...especially 15 inch rounds weighing over a ton!
Agree, even if he’s upset with the British admiral sending a “mere captian” he at least could of demanded the British admiral who could of then either come with said captain to be translator or told the French admiral I don’t speak French talk to him he’s my lesion
You know technology outpaced tactics at the end of 1914, right?
Blaming the blood letting on arrogance and haughtiness alone shows your abject ignorance of the events in question.
It took 3+ years to develop tech and tactics which would overcome the deadlock.
Do you think they werent TRYING to work it out?
@@sugarnads what? What tactics?? Even in WW1 that was unacceptable behaviour, if the French government found out he was being lazy with his message (say the Brit’s risked it and ask the French government and got the truth across) he would been court martial see for incompetence and for nearly getting the fleet killed.
You are defending such an attack on a neutral nation? Guess you are pro Japanese, pro Pearl Harbor as well. Oh, we have cornered some old ladies in this room, let's put the boot to them!
When the Allies invaded French North Africa in November 1942 commander Dwight D. Eisenhower struck a controversial deal with Darlan, recognizing him as High Commissioner of France for North and West Africa. In return, Darlan ordered all French forces in North Africa to cease resistance and cooperate with the Allies.
Less than two months later, on 24 December, Darlan was assassinated by Fernand Bonnier de La Chapelle, a 20-year-old monarchist and anti-Vichyiste.
Touching end to a snake.
Excellent exposition of events and detailed information!
I'm an American so take this as you will but as I look back at history there seems to be a lot of miscommunication where the French are involved. I suspect there are subtleties of their culture that we still don't understand. Seemingly inexplicable decisions made time and again. Rather interesting.
@@IcyTorment you are biased. clearly you have adopted moral standards of the brits and brutish Americans. Which are double faced. A smiling face to the front a beautiful facade but at the back holding a knife and the tail of a snake. Dishonorable war mongering and immoral culture that pretends to be virtuous whilst breaking all of their own morals constantly, though carefully veiled by well crafted indoctrination lies and propaganda. Just look at all the atrocities caused by them. They aren't good people. Sure they are genetically and culturally the most similar to myself, but just like most others, they aren't good people. They aren't good at all, everything is shades of grey and the allies both now and then were far far far in the darkest corner together with Germany and many others. Humans are often quite immoral and disgusting as a collective society. Yet they can't see it because they are blind to their own faults.
@naurius there really were options that did not require the French to give up their ships. In fact, most options did not require this.
@David Wilhelm- the French navy, during the generation that these Admirals were from, was chaotic and nonsensical in hindsight, but that's hindsight. This man had the chance to continue the fight in one way or another, but chose to soothe his pride at his men's expense. That's not subtlety, it's narcissism.
@@nocensorship8092 what does that even mean? There's lots of allusion, lots of words, but no substance. It's nonsense if there are no details. If there are details, then you'll find that most, if not all, military powers have their atrocities and their benevolence. It's because they're run by humans, which have these same moments, and rely on the strict application of orders.
@nocensorship8092 clearly, you've adopted the self-centered superiority complex of... whatever you are.
As you can see, Darland was trying to hide aspects of the armassist from the British. Gensoul was trying to lie about the options given to the French fleet.
To put a blanket statement that the Americans and the British are British and have no morals yes unfounded and quite frankly prejudiced. I could say the same for you because you actually sound like a Muslim.
Americans and British and westerners at least take action. When it comes to muslims they just talk in circles and never come to an agreement and then you wonder why you're so fractured.
Oh God I can't take this anymore. First Jingles has a 40min video. Then I go to get fish and chips (they were very nice). I comeback to find the history guy has uploaded a video (which was excellent) and, now I find this video which I'm sure will be brilliant. Thanks Drachinifel!
Damn straight my man
I had expected this video to start with Copenhagen, back then England also refused the existence of an uncommitted possibly competive fleet, there is nothing new aboukt Mers-El-Kebir, other than that the french navy hadn't read the naval historybooks, if they had, they had been much more aware of the danger, they were in.
Came here for the Copenhagen reference
Best explanation of how this incident turned from allies to mutual distrust, to what appears to be a mix of ego and arrogance leading to death and destruction. Moving the fleet to the Caribbean would appear to have been both the smartest & easiest solution.
Back in the days of sail, that is what would have happened.
British Admirals had wide-ranging powers, even of a political nature for obvious reasons.
It was also the most successful days of Empire.
Strange how historians would conclude that it was "generals sitting in Chateaus far away from the action" which lost many battles in WW1 and early-WW2, rather than allowing front-line commanders and officers to lead from the front, given "objectives", not *specific orders.*
True.
The specific orders by the Admirality, coupled with Churchill's "settle matters quickly" had 2 main effects:
1) it took the decision out of the hands of Admiral Somerville
2) put emense pressure, by dictated orders (rather than "objectives")
Even Churchill must have instinctively grasped that it was a mistake, and he prepared 2 speeches for Parliament.
One conciliatory, the other more defiant...
"....pray they don't alter it any further..."
Only a fool trusted Darth Schickelgruber twice
Excellent analysis, I still side with the British on the decision to open fire on the French fleet. That French admiral was such a jerk to be offended at the particular rank of the messenger. To me, by the summer of 1940, one was no longer in a position to justify taking Hitler's Germany at their word, whether on or off a signed document. The whole tension buildup leading to the war was built upon Hitler breaking promises. As far as I am concerned, from the contemporary perspective, that French Fleet was a threat. I believe that the French Fleet in North Africa should have said "To Hell with the Vichy Govt, we will continue to fight!".
Yes I agree, even General de Gaulle justifies the operation by declaring on July 8 on London radio: “[…] by virtue of a dishonorable commitment, the government of Bordeaux had agreed to deliver the ships to enemy discretion. There is not the slightest doubt that in principle and out of necessity the enemy would have used them either against England or against our own Empire. Well, I say it bluntly, they had better been destroyed. "
God bless all these sailors.
@@alexh479 Huh except Vichy absolutely never agreed to give the ships. It was already written clearly in the treaty that they would scuttle their ships if anyone tried to seize them. Which is what happened at Toulon actually
@@alexh479 Even Churchill said it was a mistake.....
@@loicguermeur4256 just because one declares something a mistake later in life does not mean it was not the right one at the time under the circumstances
@@davilanetworks382 but it was. For example, Dakar and the whole french West africa colonies were about to join deGaulle and stood with Vichy until 1942. Regardless all the damages with others french people and decisions. That’s called a mistake. And by the way, The attack on Tarente in octobre was far more usefull.
My father was there serving as the CEPO on board the cruiser, HMS Naiad. His previous ship HMS Ajax was also there. He discussed this action with me two or three times and was always of the opinion that the fleet had sailed there to negotiate and when that failed they had no option outside taking the action they did. He regretted the loss of life but was pleased not to have had to fight the French vessels later on. As his time in the Med was already hard enough; Battle of Crete, convoy protection etc. before eventually being torpedoed and spending a number of hours in the water, it is no wonder that he and the majority of his comrades supported the British fleet erring on the side of caution. Regards
Very well done work on such a charged issue.
it's a sad truth but the UK had to do this. it was the right call.
Where French High Command's legendary incompetence after WW1, National Pride, and miscommunication struck home. Somerville still had a good reputation still after this incident in the Royal Navy, so at the very least I'm happy about that.
regarding bad leadership post ww1; man, i really feel for the poor french dudes on the ground when reading about some of the shenanigans vis a vis Generals Gamelin - Weygand including dissmissing the former for the latter as Commander in Chief while the Battle of France is underway. Yikes.
@@dndboy13 Yea imagine being a French conscript during that shitstorm.
They did bloody well at Cassino though, apparently.
There was a video by the Chieftain that showed the exact same problems in the army: Officers acting only under direct written orders as well as not cooperating with each other. They'd rather capitulate than act without or against orders.
Apparently, this was the result of harsh punishments from top brass in several cases where orders had not been followed to the word. It's bad when your men are more afraid of their superiors than of their enemy.
Indeed sir. Admiral Somerville did not open fire at the start... Could he have done anything else?.... from my perspective... No. Somerville did the right thing.
Excellent analysis. Typical of the French intransigence shown throughout the war.
And postwar to this day even
not quite... A part of France that chose to collaborate with the germans...or closed their eyes as log as they remained untouched...
anyway, they had very little choice, and british navy did what they had to do
@typo pit love the Anglo-Saxons, they arrange the story as it suits them so that it is always the fault of others.
in 1938 the french wanted peace just like the british which led to the munich accords. If you make sense, you should also say that half of the British were for Hitler
Not the French in general bu their idiotic commandment which was fighting another war.
@@patrickbotti2357 the British fled to their island, the Soviets had to retreat several thousand kilometers but only the French generals were idiot? Did the American generals do better at the start of the war with Pearl Harbor and the loss of the Philippines? the only difference is that France did not have a sea or an ocean to protect himself nor the possibility of retreating for 1000 km before reorganizing itself
A VERY WELL ARGUED CASE… VERY COMPELLINGLY & COGENTLY EXPLAINED… And your conclusion regarding where the blame must principally lie for this eminently avoidable tragedy, is one which - in my humble opinion - is the only one that the known facts leading up to it, emphatically support.
The French have gone down as a baffling bunch in this era. Admiral Darlan's behavior during Operation Torch which ultimately led to his death, was obstruction at every level. General Girot did the same. Both men presuming they were to lead Allied forces as payment for their cooperation. de Gaulle was likewise difficult to work with, but he lived to explain himself. As such his motives are clearer at least. His methods are dubious at best.
History has judged virtually all the French high command in North Africa harshly. And it's episodes like this that make it obvious why. They were obstreperous, arrogant, powe hungry, and had a habit of listening only to what they wanted to hear. They were also shocking in their level of combat incompetence.
What's more, they were led by General Petan, a man who had no excuse to be a poor actor in war. France has a proud tradition at arms. It's absolutely baffling these men undermine that tradition at every opportunity to show their mettle.
It happens in peace time that those sorts rise to power in any military. It's not baffling - the reasons for careerists and tactical & strategic incompetents coming to lead is because the leadership in war has almost an antithetical skill set and way of leading to what exists in peacetime military bureaucracies. And you always enter a war, unless you are initiating it which usually means you've prepped, seasoned some new good war leaders, and have a plan, on your back foot and with your least useful leading.
I mean, assuming there was no high level interference, if the USN had put to sea (even just for a short cruise in the neighborhood) more of their Pacific Fleet from Pearl Harbour, knowing the Japanese were out in force *somewhere*, they might not have taken the hammering they did and the war might have been shortened. Nobody conceived of a bold first strike like that, but any war fighter, if they put themselves in Japan's inferior but aspiring expansionist military and government, would have recognized that as a bold opening that might really even the playing field.
Yes, sending say 2/3rds of the fleet to sea would have had a cost, but it sure might have made a difference to how the first phase of the War played out. I think the Japanese would still have hammered Pearl, but the Americans could then have moved to engage or at least been around to contribute in the first years of US involvement.
Petain was a great leader. France's problem was that they had too few Petain's and too many Communists. Petain was not responsible for the poor state of the French military (he fought bitterly in the interwar period against cutbacks and downsizing) and he certainly wasn't responsible for the ill advised "alliance" with the treacherous Brits or the foolish decision to declare war on the Germans. Petain had a a plum diplomatic "retirement" position in Spain when the war broke out. Franco urged him to stay in Spain but unlike De Gaulle, Petain's sense of honor precluded the possibility of him abandoning his country. He went back, did the best he could to try to extract France from the mess it had gotten itself in to, but France's internal enemies were too much for the old man to overcome. Petain really needed to kill a lot of people (he should have had De Gaulle assasinated abroad as well) but asking an 80 year old man to oversee an internal purge of the scale that was necessary was just too much to ask.
@@scottwillie6389 Declaring war on Germany was the right thing to do, diplomatically speaking, otherwise France would look like a coward by not keeping its promise to Poland after failing to answer to Hitler's annexation of Czechoslovakia the year before. The fact you manage to shit on communists (who had little real power in French politics until the middle of the war) and mention the brits were 'treacherous' seems like you want to paint him as a hero. Remember he was condemned to death for what he did, his quiet agreement to shuttle as many jews he could to Germany upon request being one of many accusations levied against him by French military tribunals.
@@thewitherchannel1053 he was condemned to death by the regime that was installed by the invading Brits and Americans. To the victor go the spoils. France was defeated, and unlike the Germans (who treated the defeated French quite generously and allowed them to maintain their existing government and rule themselves), the Brits demanded the fall of the French government and installation of puppet regime. That they were ultimately too afraid to carry out the sentence demonstrates just how loved and respected Petain was among the true French population.
Kabayoth history written by the victors
Mers-el-Kebir convinced Roosevelt that England meant business and that resources sent there would not be wasted. While the French were uselessly busy massaging their hurt pride.
The US had declared war on Germany in March 1933.
@@MarkHarrison733 I recommend you open up a history book.
@@TomFynn Judea had officially announced its declaration in March 1933.
@@MarkHarrison733 For you, reality is something that happens to other people, isn't it?
@@TomFynn We all know who controls the United States.
It’s interesting that no one that I can see has brought up Churchill’s thought on Oran/Mers-El-Kebir. He considered that it drove home to Roosevelt that the British were deadly serious about continuing to fight on despite facing the German juggernaut alone (except for the dominions) at that point. Cheers!
Quite true. FDR apparently said, when informed of the action, that in a similar position he would have done the same.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 ah, yes, lives, people..they are collateral to british interests, of course. yet you forget that the unacceptability of that same premise is why your heavenly angel regime justified its war with germany in the first place. The Polish border question, which was obviously in german interests to resolve, could not be resolved by force. FAIL
@@ipsoepsum6880 Did you really just try to blame the British for Nazi Germany's actions? Lmao
You're criticizing the British for seeing lives as collateral as if Nazi Germany was somehow better than them.
I thought I knew a lot about this attack & many of the other great vids, boy you been doing some research/reading sir! Very well done & absorbing content. Ty
The French admiral couldn't have been that....oh...oh dear
Sadly, crass arrogance and stupidity are not unique to French Naval Officers as there was still a tendency for the upper ranks of European navies to be staffed by members of the upper classes
Excellent presentation, I enjoyed watching this. I have read about this before but you put the issues very clearly and I feel that I have a much better understanding of this very controversial episode.
There is an interesting parallel - in 1943, when Italy sought an armistice with the Allies, the Germans feared that the British would get their hands on what was left of the Italian fleet and sank whatever they could find. On 9 September 1943 German glider bombs sank the brand new, 46,000 ton battleship Roma, with the loss of Admiral Bergamini, CinC of the Italian fleet and most of her crew.
12:07
Do my ear deceive me, or was that an Empire Strikes Back reference?
Yes, yes it was.
@@Xino6804 Nah, Robot Chicken
Tuning3434 : gotta love that Robot Chicken 🐔
How is it an Empire Strikes Back reference?
@@MBKill3rCat
It's a reference to this scene from Empire Strikes Back: th-cam.com/video/qd8hy032uLc/w-d-xo.html
Once again brilliant presentation
The French should have sailed their ships to allied waters to fight on for their country against the fascists.
Yes but sadly that was not so easy. The Germans were occupying France and the civilians would have badly suffer about such a move because the armistice terms stated that the French fleet would remain neutral.
Having listened to the options given. The French admiral was the cause of this action. Followed by the same attitude of de gaule complete egotists.
Had he done so he would have been a national hero whose name would be spoken in honor around the world to this very day; instead he is a footnote of history, rarely noted and mocked whenever he is.
@@psour33 Then even more reason the Fleet must be destroyed, because the same reason would be used to force those ships be used against the Allies.
@@loremipsum3610 Given the fact the fleet was destroyed when the germans entered toulon, saying the french fleet would have been used against the allies is bullshit.
Two modern battleships were lost to the allies during the scuttling in 1942
156k views on such a minor topic, youtube crowd really is knowledge hungry seekers of truth. And lets not forget the wonderful content providers for creating videos like these for us.
Well, it depends how you define a minor topice. If you look at it, everything can be a minor topic. What is important is the consequences of such minor incidents. ANd by the way. how many French sailors died in this one? Twelve or thirteen hundred, or even more?
At Mers El Kebir, the British gave and left every chance to the French.
The main responsibility for this lies with the English-speaking French admirals, namely Admiral François Darlan, Admiral Gensoul and Admiral Leluc.
Admiral Darlan who from June 13, 1940, in Tours, did not understand at all, or did not want to understand, the legitimate concern of the English explained by Prime Minister Winston Churchill during this inter-allied conference, where he was then Darlan are already thinking of joining Marshal Pétain and Generalissimo Weygand, also Anglophobes, in the camp of defeatist traitors.
This British concern was duly motivated by the fear that the Germans and Italians would completely seize the French fleet.
At the same time from Mers El Kebir, in Alexandria (Egypt), French Admiral Godfroy reacted very well, understanding very well the very clear demands of the British.
We forget or we wrongly hide that during this conference on June 13 in Tours that Prime Minister Churchill will ask a second question asking if it was possible to hand over to the British army the 400 German airmen, shot down since May 10 1940, and prisoners of the French. This request was fully justified by the fear that these airmen would later bomb Great Britain. The President of the French Council, Paul Reynaud, will immediately say YES! and will order Generalissimo Weygand to execute this surrender as soon as possible.
What's going to happen ? Nothing good. The German prisoners will be strangely transferred to Toulouse, and therefore, never delivered to our British allies.
After June 17, 1940, the defeatist Pétain will free the prisoners to send them back to Germany (which is the second act of collaboration of Pétain) and weygand factieux did not carry out the order of the French Government.
Arrived in Germany where Goering, in person, will come to welcome them at the station to invite them and transport them to his Manor of KarineHall to celebrate in a large hearty meal and very well watered, their outings.
And of course, all these 400 German airmen, will all participate in the Battle of Britain, where their bombardments will cause many deaths among British civilians.
So the British understood very well the reversal of the alliance of the new French government from June 17, 1940, and the betrayal of the Franco-English agreement of March 28, 1940. And the British will still insist on the subject of the French fleet again sends a delegation on June 22, 1940, to Bordeaux where Pétain and Darlan will remain impassive and deaf and will not grant anything confirming this cooling of Franco-English relations.
In addition to Mers El Kebir, he let it be known that Admiral Leluc in Toulon would clearly transmit what was an imbecility, to Admiral Gensoul, the dispatch of a French fleet. Of course this message will be heard by British Admiral Cunnigham's Bitannic fleet, who will thus be forced to put an end to the negotiations in progress, and to the truce, by opening fire.
Admiral Gensoul dragged out the negotiations for half a day, refusing to receive the British emissary, Captain Holland, whom he knew well from before the war in Paris. And Gensoul will not take any saving measures to keep the French boats away since the beginning of the morning.
Incorrect.
They gave an ultimatum any Brit himself would never have accepted, if ever in the same position, obviously hoping it'd be turned down.
@@ralphbernhard1757 In point of fact, one of the options, the transfer of the fleet to the French West Indies, might well have been acceptable to Darlan.
Unfortunately, Gensoul never saw fit to inform Darlan, or anyone else in the French administration, of the full text of the British ultimatum.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 With re. to France, your above "standpoint" is pure bias.
To every French officer and leader, (loyalty) the future of French N. Africa came first, and sailing the French navy away, or handing it over to British control, would have left Algeria/Tunesia wide open to an attack (most likely by the "hyena" Italy).
@@dovetonsturdee7033 In the West Indies, they could not protect French citizens and subjects of French North Africa.
@@ralphbernhard1757 Really, when the Italians had just embarked on a military campaign against Egypt? Nonsense.
Thank you for an excellent documentary. I'm going through all the WW2-related videos, DVDs, and documentaries that I can find, in historical order (which will probably take me as long as the war to get through), and this is undoubtedly one of the best. Your level of research is impressive and your analysis of both sides' options is insightful. I enjoyed it very much.
Had to listen to this twice to make sure I understood Drach's viewpoint. I've struggled to find the rationale behind the FN decisions that led up to this, Whitehall and the Admiralty had drawn some very obvious and clear lines in the sand, the least of which for the FN was just to leave the Med or any other Theatre of War and retire to maybe a French holding in the Caribbean and sit the War out.
I know you try and avoid the more recent conflicts but this was one of the best bits of research I've come across regarding the events, Anglo phobia was not restricted to King then.
*Battle of Copenhagen intensifies*
French Navy: ah shiet, here we go again.
Yes but unlike the Bombardment of Copenhagen 1807 they aimed at the ships. In Copenhagen they used a church as aim point thereby killing 3500 mostly civilians - even the British press at the time was not impressed.
that brits seem to have a habit of sinking their allies ships whenever they're a madman running about the continent
@@MaxwellAerialPhotography i would not call Napoleon a mar man .
Murderous Kitten But perhaps the Brits would be inclined to call him that in the 18-hundreds ;-)
@@laugechristophersen9913 well , weaklings always call great man mad :D
Great vid Drach, thanks for your hard work in making this. Such a senseless tragedy.
A very thought-provoking and well-presented analysis. Having examined quite a few sources in this matter, I agree that the tragedy hinged on the negotiations around Admiral Gensoul and his reactions to the situation. IMHO, I believe that Gensoul was motivated by a combination of arrogance and wounded pride that led him to respond as he did. Let's face it, France had lost in a humiliating way to Germany, so national pride was wounded and doubtlessly his too, then the dreaded British turn up wanting to take his fleet out of his control and worst of all, sending a mere captain to negotiate with him! The fact that he rejected Captain Holland immediately and out of hand, refusing to accept any explanation as to Holland's role, speaks volumes for Gensoul's state of mind. One thing that might have helped would have been for Admiral Somerville to meet personally with Gensoul and have Holland act as his interpreter - and I'm not sure why this was not actioned...
Still, the fact that Gensoul was so duplicitous with his own government in providing an inaccurate sitrep and options presented to him, seems to indicate that he wanted to manipulate the situation to support his own personal agenda.
Except Gensoul would still have perceived that as a huge slight that Somerville had to get someone of LOWER rank (Holland) to speak on his behalf, he wanted it to be Admiral to Admiral ONLY and given that Somerville barely spoke any French apart from the odd small sentence how well do you think that would have gone over for Somerville?
Of course the Germans used it as a propaganda tool after the fact... Though 3 years later they would do almost the same against the Italian battleships after their capitulation (only without negotiating first).
Yeah, war crimes do tend to make for rather good propaganda don't they?
@@johndoe5432 War crimes?
So you think fire bombing cities is totes legit... But you'd draw the line at sinking a couple "neutral" warships to stop them from being captured by the enemy?
Except it's legal if the neutral nations are under the orders of an enemy nation, so it's not actually a war crime...
@@sergarlantyrell7847 Hey, speaking of fire bombing cities wanna talk about Dresden? Good old RAF, what a bunch of heroes.
This French admiral was a pompous fool from a bygone era, you also had his type in a lot of other navies, including th RN
... including the USN, i.e. the unhinged Anglo-loathing Fleet Admiral Ernest King....
Just ask the families’ of the thousands of merchant sailors manning the hundreds of freighters and tankers that went to the bottom off the east coast of the U.S. and Canada without hardly any American ASW response 🤬 during the Kreigsmarine’s Operation Drumbeat in 1942-43....
Bygone now but not then.
The Sink the Bismarck film, which was shot during WW2 when the British still didn't want the Germans knowing they had cracked Enigma, used this explanation for how they correctly guessed what the Lütjens/Bismarck's course would be after the engagement with Hood & PoW.
@@abatesnz apparently that secret was kept into the 1970s...long after the war
@@abatesnz The sink the Bismarck film was made in the early1960's!!! Ultra was not declassified until the mid 1970's
Having nearly come to blows with French colleagues over this precise issue I listened to this with great interest.
There are those who remember the Vichy propaganda better than the facts.
Why would you tolerate having a French colleague in the first place?
@@juliosunga3530 With all due respect, that is neither nice nor funny! Sorry!
@@patrickbotti2357 Nobody said it was.
The fact that Britain showed up and executed their allies because they were following an armistice so their nation wasn’t burned to the ground and depopulated?
That’s not propaganda, this is what we call a war crime