Good video! If you haven't, you should read the Raven x Lucius support -- it's about as explicit as subtext can get. One small correction: Jeritza isn't paywalled. He was a free addition to the game, just late (clearly intended to be in from the beginning, but the game was rushed).
Damn, I never use Lucius so I forgot how gay they were together. Fuck, I'm gonna have to choose between Canas and Lucius for my guiding rings in future playthroughs now.
The Priam discussion has always bothered the. Ike being gay and Ike being sterile are two wildly different things. Why couldn’t he have had a surrogate mother help him start a family with Soren or Ranalf? Gays can have children, it’s happened for thousands of years.
For some of these characters while the S rank was pretty tamed, I found the wake up scenes were the most romantic. For example, with Diamant his S rank could be taken as platonic, but both his dialogue and voice acting in the two S-rank wake up scenes make it pretty explicit that the relationship is actually romantic and it seemed like they risk some minor flirting even as early as his B rank wake up.
Nice, I'll have to watch his wake up scenes! The only reason I excluded them is I wanted to focus on the supports since the wake up scenes are kinda easy to miss, especially if you aren't taking your time with Engage, but I wish I at least mentioned them!
I know it's a lot to ask for, but I'd love if in future games we could get *multiple* S-rank conversations for some characters: one platonic and one romantic.
@@I_Am54738 Fates had them, but they didn't have conversations and were purely for Friendship Sealing iirc. Three Houses was the only game to actually have A+ conversational supports. Personally though I feel that A+ being platonic and S being romantic implies a friendship can't possibly be as deep as a romance, which I'm not a fan of.
The "That's deserves a like" is more on the lines of "My body is ready" From Frederick, is, a meme. So I think that Rosado was the one who friendzoned Alear since he is the one who puts the nail of the coffin calling the relationship a friendship
IMPO, I think the 'no-big-deal' vibe Engage went for in regards to queerness is just as valid as specifically mentioning queer issues. Like, sure, there are situations that happen specifically to queer folk that straight-cis people will never get, and having that in fiction is a good way to make them aware of that, but sometimes, I just want to have a good sapphic romance without all the gayngst. Yanno? (Context; speaking as a cis-lesbian)
Definitely see where you're coming from and it's pretty close to how I feel about Engage. Like yeah, having queer characters in media who have that as part of their character is great and important, but it really doesn't feel like Engage is the place for that just with the whole energy the game has with romance taking more of a backseat anyway. A nice side effect of that is getting completely normalized and destigmatized relationships which is easy to appreciate!
Hot take: engage making every character player sexual is good. Romance was never about representation but rather fan service. And I think it’s good for everyone to be romanceable regardless of gender cause everyone wins that way.
I know im a little late to the conversation but a lot of the lighter romantic s ranks get a lot more romantic in the unique wake-up events especially with diamant, he will confess his love for you in your sleep and tell you that you softened a warriors heart. Although Amber sadly still is completely ignorant to the fact that your married
It's so weird having Fogado be in the questionable state his S rank is, mostly because it's so incredibly obvious how it made into a platonic one. Replace 'ally' with 'boyfriend' and all of a sudden, lines like "I bet you ask everyone to be your ally" from Alear make *so* much more sense.
If you ask me, that whole scene just *reads* better if you replace the world ally with boyfriend lmao. It is so clearly meant to be a romantic scene that having them say ally over and over comes across as unintentionally funny to me. Like it’s so clear that it was meant to be romantic and still reads as such, but for some reason something was changed so that it couldn’t be and it was done in the quickest and easiest way possible.
The reason why people mention the localization a lot is that apparently it changed all S supports with characters under 18 (based on in-game ages) to be platonic. Since half the cast is ~16/17, you get characters like fogado inserting “friends” into the dialogue to make it seem platonic. Not sure what to think of it, but it does show a problem of a game about teenagers heavily encoring romance.
Yeah, it's a shame they don't make canon ages more obvious, like they literally had the character cards in the game, they could have just put the ages there!
@@garfieldkermit It's because clearly some of the ages changed at some point. (See: Saphir does not feel like she's only in her 30s-40s. Vander is... Not as young as he's stated!?)
For the engage s-ranks. You can tell whether they are supposed to be romantic by looking at which finger they are wearing the ring on. Intended romances wear it on the ring finger!
I have always liked Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn for their us of queer themes like found family. I especially like the branded who are in universe mixed race, but serve as a pretty allegory effective for being gay, hitting on things like religious bigotry, familial abandonment, fear of being found out and don’t ask don’t tell. This allows characters like Soren to still deal with queer issues without a character like Ike being defined by queer suffering. It also makes Ike and Soren’s support read like a coming out scene (unfortunately this was censored by localization). It also gave us the shirtless tower scene with a certain spoiler character which is… very gay. Also, the Edelgard ending was apparently more romantic in every language outside of English, so it is good to see localization is still up to their old tricks
Honestly, the more I hear about the the radiance games the more I want to play them, at this point I might just emulate. And that's interesting about Edelgard, it's a shame it got changed so much!
@@garfieldkermit I would definitely recommend playing them, warning since it is an older title the 5 support limit is still in place. For the gay supports in POR I would recommend doing Ike and Soren (obviously), Zihark and Maurim, Mist and Jill (after chapter 20)(unfortunately this one is undone do to them going with BoydxMist and JillxHaar in the sequel), lastly Lucia and Ilyana (this one is weird as Lucia has a pretty gay solo ending in Radiant Dawn that talks about Elincia, but only has a paired ending with Bastian) (Ilyana, Zihark and Maurim have no endings in Radiant Dawn) Then radiant dawn has a somewhat weird support system so you only get like a line or 2 Radiant Dawn, but pair have Ike talk to Soren, Edward and Leonardo, have Reyson talk to Tibarn, have Fiona talk to I think Leanne, Tanith talk to Sigrun (Of these only Ike and Soren have apaired ending. However, I do not mind too much, as when you have something as obvious as Nailah and Rafiel who are canonically married not have a paired ending, well...) I think the best thing about Tellius is the general lack of deniability as when obvious straight ships don't go through it opens the door for queer ships and since so few characters have paired endings there is not the question of, but why doesn't x gay ship have one. Also, in Radiant Dawn your eye out for parallels between IkexSoren, MiciahxSothe and a certain gay spoiler couple These games have issues of course, especially when it comes to them trying to write more feminine traits into amab characters it makes characters like Kyza come off as offensive even when they are framed in a sympathetic light. While characters like Oliver and Valtome who are villains and not framed in a positive light, are just down right offensive because of this. However, I will always love these games, because it felt like they cared and put in an effort in a way no other game really has, and I think the good in them far out shines the bad. Unfortunately, I think they are not talked about enough because of lack of knowledge and that people need things to be without a shadow of a doubt cannon for it to be considered representation, i.e. it needs to be obvious for 100% of a straight audience Sorry, for the essay, but I hoped that helped
@@aureliumsol8572 Thanks for all the feedback, and yeah I've seen that most of the queer audeince for the duology acknowledge the queerness while the game still retains a little plausible deniability to avoid being canon. it's interesting to consider how the game would be changed if it was made now, another comment mentioned hoping it would get the echoes treatment and I agree since making games that people are so passionate about more legally accessible and with better support options seems to be a good idea!
@@garfieldkermit Personally, I think a remaster with voice acting and some additional supports (also just actual supports in Radiant Dawns case) would be best, as there are other games ahead of it for the echoes treatment and it would be unfair to skip them Also, if you are playing through the games there will probably be things you miss without a greater knowledge of the series. If you have a patreon I could contact you through there and explain them to you
@Aurelium Sol Nice! I'm not planning to play them that soon since I don't like to play games that are too similar that close together, so I'll wait a lil while and then play another FE game! Also don't have a patreon but I'm gonna make me discord public soon so I'll let you know when I do!
Great video, once again (and thanks for the shoutout)! And I absolutely love the thumbnail on this one, Botanautical did a great job! I've never played any FE games, so my only direct exposure to these characters is via Smash Bros. But they've always struck me as being particularly popular among some of the queer friends I've made over the years. I wonder what it is about these games that attracts us, lol? Probably aesthetics. Anyway, I'm personally not a great fan of the 'quantum-sexuality' approach that's seen in Engage, where the characters are effectively bi (or pan) but *only* for the MC (seemingly). Because although it's a nice for fantasy fulfillment, it doesn't seem to say much narratively; and because it would be just as easy to flick that switch back off if the game ever gets ported somewhere with more strict laws against queer expression. That said, it's better than nothing. Still, I do tend to prefer when a character is written to be the sexuality they are, and it's consequential to the story. But I like art that makes statements. That said, I can also appreciate when a characters sexuality *isn't* consequential, but it comes up in passing and is never really questioned or commented on... Like most of the queer characters in something like the Dragon Prince, for example. Honestly, I just like seeing queer characters in my media in general, as heroes and villains alike. As people.
Thanks again! And yeah representation is a weird one when it comes to the best form to get it in, and while I like what Engage did, making it a little harder to censor would always be appreciated!
While Three Houses was far from perfect, I do like how dynamic the potential romantic interactions between the non MC playable characters were. Not a lot in the way of explicitly gay characters, but, in addition to the more ambiguous examples, there's definitely a mix of explicitly straight, explicitly bi, and even ones you can basically differentiate as explicitly pan vs bi. Like, some characters have a few clear varied preferences between a partner that is the opposite sex vs one that that is the same, while others have very little regard for the gender/sex of characters they're interested in based on all the ways they can interact throughout the game, and that's not just in supports and endings. Dorothea is a very good (but not the only) example of what I'm talking about. She starts the game off intending to use the Academy like it's a dating app. Since a pairing that can result in a blood related offspring would be the best at insuring the stable financial future she's interested in, she's trying to scout male prospects that she could be compatible with in a very transactional manner. But, when a girl strikes her fancy she can't help being a shameless flirt, even if it's pretty clear she is not considering any of the girls seriously for relationship goals right then, which actually causes a fair bit of trouble in some interactions (in particular, kinda love how Ingrid has no room for this girl nor the player making assumptions about her being a glammy tomboy, on top of the fact she's the de facto Pegasus Knight of the game, which is easily the unit archetype with the greatest likelihood of having at least one character with sapphic coding under its banner in each game of the franchise). Still, as things progress, Dorothea is really just a hopeless romantic at heart, and the only pairings that go anywhere for her are the ones with actual passion involved, her worries for a stable personal future always taking a back seat whenever things get serious no matter who she ends up with. I'm personally Asexual, but am very in love with the idea of other people being in love with each other, so blanket wish fulfillment S Supports that make no distinction for gender do very little for me but smack of wasted potential. Not truly queer representation if no unique dynamics are in play at all, it's just an easy content redundancy clout grab. Technically better than nothing, but not REALLY if the series has already handled things with more nuance previously. Plus, paired endings between all characters is such a staple part of the Fire Emblem series that helps give individual playthroughs better context with relatively little necessary effort from the developers (especially in a game with no branching paths). Losing out on those, both romantic and platonic, is a huge blow. ...Though, I suppose Engage basically wasn't going for a story with lasting impact, so maybe it was for the best? Might as well throw out the wish fulfillment bone if the most a story knowingly and purposefully aspires for is cheap entertainment.
I think my favorite queer-coded relationship in the series is Eirika and L’Arachel from Sacred Stones, whether or not it’s reciprocated L’Arachel practically proposes in their A support and even in the main story they’re pretty gay. I may just be biased but i think if they weren’t both women people would say they’re explicitly romantic
Nice, I'll have to check it out! And yeah, sometimes with queer subtext the best way to stop second guessing is to think 'this would be seen as romantic if it was straight' lmao
As someone who'd only seen Boucheron's and Alfred's S supports, I'm a bit sad to see that the actual amount of explicitly romantic/close enough to romantic supports is lower than I'd realized. Voiced romantic support dialogue between same gender characters was definitely a nice step up though. I did feel like Engage had some playfully bisexual energy at times, probably because it (mostly? Always?) just has the same dialogue regardless of Alear's gender. A line that stood out to me was from Alfred near the start of the game, along the lines of "I'll be your sword and shield. Or a flower to comfort you" which struck me as so sweet, he instantly won me over.
Yes! I've seen so many people complain about Alfred, but he was genuinely one of my favorites, and I almost chose him instead of Bunet, he's such a sweet character and really captured the light-hearted tone of the game!
I love Diamant, I love his S support, but felt if they subtract word "fighting" and maybe "mutual support" then it gotten more romantic support, it's just I feel like there's no Hetero explanation for Diamant melting a medal to ring, which was so important to his support conversation with Alear.
Honestly really appreciate engage for the route it went for queer representation. Video games are unique as medium in that they’re so much more interactive than any other type of storytelling. Making a world which bi-normative makes for really compelling interactivity for all players to create their own unique stories. If it were a heteronormative world with queer exceptions, it limits how you interact with the world and the characters within it.
Imo, the gayest Fire Emblem game by far is Warriors: Three Hopes. You have characters like Dorothea explicitly stating her bisexuality, as well as Shamir stating she's into women, plus Yuri implying that he's done his fair share of sleeping around with other men. Unlike other FE games, the player gets exposed to queerness outside of just S Supports, and I love how not subtle it is, too 🏳️🌈
Also included is lindhardt flirting with both versions of Shez in his support, lysithea and shez's supports is less explicit but still there imo, and several other supports too
Awesome video! I've been dreaming about good Fire Emblem representation since I headcanoned Miriel and Sully in Awakening. Somehow I've always felt the vibes were super queer in the series in general which is one of my favorites. Great examination of this topic :)
I don't know if someone else has mentioned it but Priam doesn't exactly confirm Ike's "straightness" You see... Ike has a little sister named Mist who does happen to have a romantic love interest in Boyd's existence. I don't know much about Priam but it is also worth saying that the Ragnell isn't 100% tied to Ike's lineage so for all we care Priam may just be a fraud or a distant relative to Ike thanks to Mist. So Ike may still be gay and happy with Soren/Ranulf woohoo !
I'm a bit late, but Awakening & Fates have had LGBT supports modded into them. Some are better written than others, but it's still fun to have the option.
I wouldn’t believe those articles that said the 16 romance options. I think all of them are romantic except citrine who’s platonic, and diamant and jade’s whos s supports are vague. I believe saphir’s s support is romantic since alear says “I love that about you”. Yunaka and boucherons also feel romantic to me. But yeah im glad I got options that aren’t just twinks and sadists. More power to people that like guys like them but they’re not my type.
I don't blame you, Niles has extremely archetypal Antisocial Personality Disorder that it's laughable. Feels like they just opened the DSM V and made Niles out of the symptoms lol. Like him having his own 'rules' he follows and thinking he's a moral and good person despite... yeah. Not a well known sign of APD but when you've seen it in so many APD patients your mental alarm system goes !!! And it's also scary that so many people genuinely are attracted to his personality despite those signs. His spouse would very likely end up dead in a decade, comparing him to other antisocial patients. You can't help but feel sad for the poor suckers they manipulate into thinking they're nice and moral people, right up until they commit atrocities. He maybe even has S^xual Sadism Disorder, but that's only a disorder if it causes disorder in your life, if you cope well you're good. Sorry. Psychology is my area of study and the fact that characters like Niles are so genuinely liked (not liked as in lmao he's a mess, liked as in I Would Marry Him IRL) is really scary to me. Those are the people you end up seeing in therapy due to abuse or you end up seeing an obituary of. Breaks my damn heart...
Yeah, like the options pre-Engage were fine, but the lack of choice really sucks so I'm happy that people don't have to sacrifice their preferences as much in Engage!
I definitely appreciate the way genderlocked S supports were left out of Engage and how characters don't treat you any differently based on which avatar you chose. However, like you mentioned, this system makes having explicitly gay or lesbian characters impossible in the way that Ike and Leon were portrayed. While having bisexual characters is good and meaningful itself, it stings a bit to be railroaded out of specific gay or lesbian experiences/conversations, and makes the GBA supports almost feel better at adequately representing queerness. I can't say I have a solution for this; IntSys has a track record of choosing queer romantic options that are heavy and often hurtful stereotypes, but making everyone just catch-all bi shafts potential narratives. Can't win em all, but what we have now is better than what Awakening/Fates gave and I appreciate that a lot. I grew up always playing male avatars to have the option to romance women in games like Harvest Moon while swearing back and forth that I was definitely not a lesbian (suppressed religious upbringing etc etc). When Awakening came out I was still in denial but once again chose M!Robin, and then M!Corrin, because I "just wasn't interested in any of the male options". Silly to admit that FE may have helped me both cope and realize some things about myself. To have the option to choose otherwise nowadays is something I'm super grateful for from my favorite franchise, and I'm cautiously optimistic for future entries. Anyway, I appreciate the video! There is a long history of subtle queer narratives in FE that deserves attention, so thank you for also linking to those discussions.
Glad you enjoyed it! I'm hoping that it does get better after this since regressing after Engage would be a shame, but yeah if they include it as an actual character trait it would be appreciated!
Interesting video. I've done a few videos myself on queer subtext in FE, most notably a big comparison of Three Houses and Three Hopes in that regard. I also have a much older piece on the entire series up to Three Houses...but that was one of the first videos I ever made and isn't terribly high quality. Anyway, it's good that you've acknowledged this series's long history of subtext, but I wouldn't count out the more recent games in that regard either. I've never cared for the odd self-insert quality of Avatars and how their gender variability can lead to some lazy decisions (recycled scripts and, as you pointed out, the knowledge that their S rank options are basically a menu toggle that IS chose not to flip until Engage). That's why I tend to overlook them in favor of more of the probably unintentional subtext like what can be found in older games. I outright left the Avatars out of my big Houses/Hopes comparison, for example, and still found over an hour's worth of discussion material for the other characters. It's perhaps not deliberate queer representation, but it can be entertaining nonetheless.
Mauvier x Alear is by FAR my favorite, but I admit bias because Veyle deserves good things. I left a whole rant going over their A and S Support in detail, but in summary, thanks to Alear, Mauvier feels happiness for the first time in a VERY long time, and in the S Support they're both extremely mindful of each other and their emotions, and I think they're one of the sweetest pairings in the game. Edit: Here's the Long Rant if you care! I'm EXTREMELY passionate about Mauvier x Alear compared to literally EVERY other ship in the game! First it was just the Vibes (Veyle's sibling and her knight, because she deserves to be surrounded by people who love her), but then I went through the supports and started to genuinely adore the pairing. Alear believes wholeheartedly that Mauvier is a good person who simply strayed on his path, and wants to help in any way they can. Mauvier is convinced he can never atone for his actions, no matter how much good he's doing in the current day. In their A-Support, Alear finally breaks down some of his walls and Mauvier feels whole-hearted happiness for what is implied to be the first time in a VERY long time, and credits Alear for helping him find his path again. In their S Support, Alear comments on how much more Mauvier smiles than before, showcasing an actual lasting impact Alear's actions have had on him, and Mauvier states that Alear helped him learn to trust again, both himself and others. Alear, in a shocking turn of events, decides AGAINST presenting the Pact Ring in a show of cold feet. Mauvier finds it strange that Alear hid something from him, and notices the Pact Ring dropped on the ground. Mauvier then quickly reasons out why Alear would have it ("Divine One... do you mean to...") before quickly pivoting to requesting the ring for himself ("Will you give me this ring?") in a move to, I believe, not put Alear on the spot. Mauvier knows that Alear is nervous, and that they hid the Pact Ring because they intended to propose but lost courage, so he does it for them. Alear clarifies that requesting the ring makes them partners, and askes if that's what Mauvier wants. Mauvier then confesses his love, saying that Alear saved him, body and soul, and that his feeling of thankfulness grew until Alear was extremely special to him. Upon seeing the Pact Ring, he finally acknowledged those feelings, but notes that he's not yet worthy of the ring. He asks Alear to wait for him, until he's worthy of it. It is now Alear's turn to confess; this is when they reveal that they're drawn to Mauvier's kind heart and have attempted to propose SEVERAL times before losing courage, and that they're thankful Mauvier asked for them. This showcases that they ALREADY believe that Mauvier is worthy of the ring, so much so that they wanted to propose several times, never second guessing their decision because of MAUVIER, but because they lost courage. They explicitly state that the only reason they haven't proposed before now is because they were scared. They had so much time to rethink their decision, but they always knew Mauvier was worthy, it never crossed their mind that he wasn't, which I think is one of the sweetest things in any of these S Supports. I also believe this is the only support where Alear shows genuine cold feet before proposing, especially this strong (usually it's just brief hesitation or nervousness, not what's implied to be several separate instances on separate days of not having the courage to propose) but I could be wrong. The only reason Alear gets the courage is because Mauvier finds it strange that Alear hid something from him and sees the Pact Ring, and I think it's sweet that Mauvier knows that Alear's nervous and decides against putting them on the spot, instead confessing his own feelings first. They briefly comment on Veyle (who noticed they were in love before either of them, yay for Veyle), before Alear proposes and Mauvier accepts. Mauvier says that he never thought he'd feel happiness, but that now he'll know nothing else, and he'll always remain by Alear's side. Sorry for the long rant but these two are adorable and I love them. I genuinely think this is one of the sweetest pairings in the game, and I love that they're so mindful of each other's emotions. Alear helps Mauvier to realize that he deserves to feel happy, while not minimizing his actions, only emphasizing what good he's CURRENTLY doing, and Mauvier notices Alear's nervousness and decides to confess his love first, so they're not put on the spot with a potentially embarrassing or anxiety-inducing question. It's so sweet that they support each other, and at this point the thing that drew me to this ship (Veyle's two favorite people loving each other and protecting her as their family) is just a nice bonus!
Thank you for the long comment, I always love to see what people think about the Engage romances (especially since engage seems to be kind of underappreciated already which sucks), I never romanced Mauvier but it's great to see his character had so much depth! :)
Also spoilers for the story of engage. I feel like alears story can easily be read as a trans allegory. A fell dragon who hates that they were born fell and to an abusive father leaves home and becomes a divine dragon where they are more comfortable in their skin. The lines the lords have after the reveal are also very similarl ines of support to how people might react to a trans friend
I was able to play Fire Emblem POR and RD late last year and I wish they would remaster these games and make them accessible again because, even though they weren't my first Fire emblem game, they became my favorites for so many reasons.
If i say because Claude wasn't bi is that petty?? But genuinely because the trailers didn't really grab me, I'd also felt pretty burned out after playing all 3 routes of Fates, so another long game that encouraged 3 long playthroughs just felt like too much of an undertaking - I'll probably go back to it at some point, but I'll have to be in the mood for something so long :)
@@garfieldkermit not that many since most of these are ones that other people have mentioned (and i havent played all the routes or gotten all the supports) but from what I remember most of the blue lion males apperently can be seen with subtext, Sylvain at the bare minimum has a support where he is mentioned that he flirted with a man once (though i cant remember if it was by accident), additionally I have seen people point to Mercedes and Petra as having bisexual energy and some people also mention hilda and marriane but that could just be shipping. on another note the voice actor for cklaude actually would have liked for claude to have been another same sex option, when someone made an edit of his ending to have male byleth instead of female byleth he responded with support. also i dont know the validity of these claims BUT i remeber someone saying that claude and raphael were intended to be same sex romance options at some point in development, not that they gave any proof, and If i am being honest, i think this might just have been wishful thinking (with claude having those bisexual undertones himself and being a lord and raphael fitting in with the macho or "bara" stereotype that gay men tend to gravitate towards) I definitely recommend at least watching the 3 houses support conversations at some point in time, the game not so much since it can be a bit of a slog but I (from an outsiders) perspective do think 3 houses has much better and mush more well developed characters than engage, and you might be able to see where these ideas come from, since I am usually pretty bad with subtext.
@@garfieldkermit oh and uh also, the radiant games have like, a fuck ton of speculated same sex romance or at the very lest have a ton of people who headcannon queer romances between the chracters, due to the circles I am in this is speculated when it comes to the laguz royals as well as elincia and nephenie. honestly, i hope we can get a remake of this game soon, and that it gets the echos treatment, so that we get a lot more about these characters and mabey even some new ones that flesh the story out more.
@@garfieldkermit last reply and I'm really sorry to be bothering you like this but i just remembered that in sacred stones some people believe lyon is bisexual due to him stating that he at one point loved ephiam. I am not sure if this is different in the Japanese version however. sorry again😅
@@iguessthisismyworkaccountl8437 Haha no need to apologize I appreciate it! I did watch a couple of the supports in 3h for research but since I haven't interacted with the characters too much otherwise it is hard to get fully attached. However, it is nice to see so many people approaching it subtextually! And also big on the radiance games getting the echoes treatment, from what I've seen the stories are well liked but apparently the gameplay is a bit of a slog, at this point I think I would probably just watch a playthrough!
lmao when I first saw supports were fully bi (I got people arguing that they're pan, but you get me) I screamed lmao. I was quite hesitant on wether I should buy it or not since I care a lot about the story, but I decided to jump for it just for that (Because I'm also quite interested in the dating sim paart ;v) Also I always saw Lindon's support as overtly romantic since they decide to be partners and even though the word doesn't necessarily mean romantically in engage it seems to be used in almost all romantic supports and also I think in his wake up events he mentions 'you chose this old fellow as your partner' which imo implies exclusivity? and idk I feel a bit like a detective trying to read some romances in engage but I still like it better this way
@@AnakhaSilver was* his late wife has explicitly died long ago, so imo he is available despite of that (if anything, I see the devs clarifying she's dead rather than waiting for him at home as them making it clear he's an option)
Pandreo Lyndon as a character was hilarious. Wouldn’t have said no to getting him earlier instead of other characters that I didn’t care for (which was a lot of them, unfortunately).
I chose Chloé for F!Alear, and Pandreo, Alcryst, and Louis got to fight over M!Alear. I think Engage did a good job, the placement of the ring annoys me for the Likely Romantic options, but whatever, at least the dialogue is good, I am not going to be picky about which finger the ring is on
Fun fact, miitopia was rated 18+ in russa for havibg implied seame sex relationships when the game makes it vaige on perpose so that you dont marry your gramma or whatver. You cant win with some poeple
As much as engage is a step forward, the supports are similar to fates and 3 houses in the fact that every character has to be romance options and all avatar protags (barring Robin as they're written more as a character than a avatar) are blank slates and most of the supports fall flat. Corrin plot and support wise is the nice character everyone loves and gets by purely by that in supports, Byleth listens and offers advice and different perspectives, and Alear does the same. While some supports feel genuine, most of them feel forced and fall flat because they don't have much personality to offer and most rep in the 2 games prior are more plentiful and genuine with the side character supports with each other whether outright stated or in subcontext as even with good characterization, all 3 protags still get reminded of their titles and in some cases it's used in some occasions to separate the two characters in their supports like Alear and Pandreo's support where Pandreo confesses his love but states it can't happen because of their differences in positions and while it's been used throughout the years with different supports it's shown more with the avatars since they arguably have less to work with beyond their titles and limited characterization. Engage does a lot more with representation than any title for romance option and it's great but it still feels off for every character to fall in love with someone flat (personality wise) that offers nothing beyond being nice and showing interest in their past or hobbies and I understand avatars being a blank state but when they're this involved in the plot and have connections to the cast outside of supports (family, long time friends, etc.) they need to have more of a personality and showcase their interests and hobbies more or make them more relatable
Alear isn't... Flat tho? The poor kid has like. Negative self esteem, obvious PTSD, etc. You being unable to catch on to the subtler parts of their personality is on you.
@@AnakhaSilver here's the thing though: none of that is a new or unique take for the avatar protags. Insecurities? After learning about what they did in the parallel timeline and what they could become, Robin had insecurities and Corrin (in conquest especially) is riddled with them. PTSD? Corrin, within a short span, loses their mentor and father figure, their mom, has to choose between siblings, in all but revelations loses some of those siblings, loses their half sibling and their cousin, and watches their step father die in front of em as a child, and (in conquest) has to commit acts that goes against their morals just so they can live and for their (foster) father's entertainment and both Byleth and Robin show signs of it too. I'm not saying that the characters are completely felt themselves it's just they all feel like repeats and like they have a criteria to fill (ex. a parent die in front of them, memory loss, evil parent, etc.) only main difference is alear is the only one to not only sacrifice themselves for a sibling, but also the only one to die and come back 3 times. The point of supports is to give us insight on the character's personality since a majority of them don't get screentime outside of their beginning chapter, a character specific prologue, or if the character is relevant to the chapter and the avatars don't really provide a whole lot. Robin loves tactics and will collect books and keep the army in top condition, Corrin collects knickknacks works hard while chatting with the army over their interests, Byleth trains and advises the army while occasionally taking time to deal with their godlike status, and Alear completes some or all of those to some effect. A majority of supports will call attention to their status, then talk about the other characters while the protag shows interest, then the characters will express endearment and that's about it, no real time spent on building a background on the character and giving them more of a personality that the main story doesn't and there's not a lot of avatar supports that do that and that's the point I was trying to make. We know the protag has issues but it's seen (for the most part) exclusively in the main story, not the supports so we don't really get character building outside of whatever tidbits we get. The only avatar protag we learn a lot about from is Corrin and that's due to how many characters know them personally and it's not saying much since the writing (at least in the localization) isn't the greatest so while Alear has some character it's nothing new or developed much outside the main story and I hope this gets my point across better
@@nobraincelljustworm Just because it's not new or unique doesn't make it FLAT. Also like. Corrin is a horrible example of PTSD, given that they NEVER show it. Fates is a TERRIBLE example of writing, and Byleth is ACTUALLY flat characterization-wise. Byleth is ESPECIALLY big on the sin of being a flat character. As for most characters not getting much screentime... I mean, people need to pick between characters making a tone of appearances or permadeath. It would take TONS of coding to code for every variation of characters living vs dead. Bylteth's personality is "teacher and former mercenary." Corrin is "hopelessly naive and thinks wars can be won with smiles and friendship." Meanwhile, Alear is a lot subtler but like... They have more of their history fleshed out than Robin and I ADORE Robin. All we know about Robin's history is "was born in Plegia, mom ran away when infant with them, somehow ended really far south in Ylisse???"
@@AnakhaSilver as I said it feels flat to me (my opinion) since a lot of story beats alear goes through are repeats when it's boiled down in a nutshell and I never said alear's character is completely flat I said their SUPPORTS FEEL flat due to it being a reuse of avatar protags' support system. Fates is bad story wise but I appreciate what small effort is shown in the gradual breaking down of corrin in conquest and how their interests and hobbies are brought up in supports and Byleth is next to both Mark and Kris in terms of flatness avatar wise especially since we get the game telling us byleth is opening up but we don't see it. Robin is the best example of a avatar that is both a balance of a blank slate that fits in the story as while they have story relevance at least part of the story would work fine without their inclusion and while they show emotion, Robin is good at being in the background. Why the supports feel flat is because alear is HEAVILY involved in the story and they're treated as a blank slate avatar which in the case of corrin onwards doesn't work because they're either completely bland or have too much story relevance and personality to be a avatar and with a character heavily involved the avatar support system doesn't work because it's a character making note of the avatars' position (ie their status like prince/ess, teacher, etc.), the avatar learning about the other character, and then the avatar gets married after said character confesses their love for the avatar. We don't learn anything about the avatar in the supports because they're being treated as a blank slate so we can insert ourselves and the problem is AGAIN the fact that the avatars are so involved in the story and have a clear personality but all of that gets thrown away when it comes to the supports and even story wise alear follows the avatar criteria (dead parent/s, evil parent, etc.) so story wise sometimes they feel flat because it's been done before and yeah they have a different reaction and it affects them differently it starts feeling bland and to some extent forced or lazy writing, it's not a attack on alear but a call to attention why alear's supports feel flat because they're so involved to the story that them being a avatar (a blank slate that uses the generic avatar protag support formula like Robin (though it works better for them) corrin, and byleth) works against them because of their story involvement
I'm a bit saddened that you ddin't talk about Lucius x Raven, even though they are not confirmed they are heavily implied to basically left everyone else and live together
I do think you miss the mark on Diamant, because he's a lot more subtle. Because that's the kind of person he is. He's more a person of action than words--so the melting down to make a ring says it all. Also, Rosado, if anything, is a trans MAN??? Also he always read as explicitly aroace. ...Also Ghirahim uh. Is more than stereotypes. He literally says that he and Link are tied by the "red thread of fate" which is pretty romantic in Japan? So that's... Not subtle at all.
I played as the female character and she gets hit on a lot by both male and female characters.🥰🥰🥰🥰 I can’t go five minutes without some of the characters hitting on me or stalking me just wanted to stare at us when we’re sleeping. Or they won’t stop talking about how hot my character is in both the males and females are saying that even villains will hit on too.😮😮😮😮😮😮
Soleil's story was not interpreted by "many fans" as a conversion therapy story. It was seen that way by people who never even played the game and were going off of a sarcastic tweet and also like to pretend bisexuals don't exist. Just like how no one who's actually played these games thinks Forrest and Rosado are trans, considering that no, NEITHER of those characters are "hinted at being trans women". Also, wow, imagine genuinely saying Vivian, Tony, Isabelle and Bolson don't actually count or matter as representation. And saying Bolson being any kind of representation at all is entirely in our imaginations and we're only saying he's gay because of stereotypes...minutes after trying to claim Rosado and Forrest are hinted at being trans in their respective games just because they're femboys with gender-nonconforming appearances, interests and personalities.
I personally feel like three houses did queer representation better than engage. Engage approached same sex relationships via all characters being "player sexual" meaning that any romanceable characters can be romanced regardless of gender. Which is a step in the right direction, but kind of a cop out for real representation as it doesn't directly acknowledge if the relationship is same sex or not heteronormative and usually ignores gender all together. While three houses same sex relationships were technically via bisexual characters, they would directly acknowledge romantic feelings between the same sex characters, something that was a lot more vague and glossed over in engage.
Chloe's skill is literally being bisexual and Merrin's is literally being sapphic. Vs "sike, this is actually platonic when you thought it would be romantic!" in Three Houses for most of the men that AREN'T locked behind Ashen Wolves and "Heehee, only attractive wimminz and tiny loli dwagon" for the women. I MUCH prefer Engage, because you get things like Etie and Goldmary who feel like their FOREPLAY is arguing with each other, as an example. I'm enby so something about the way Three Houses handled it, like it was mostly candy for the straights (note all the dudes you CAN marry in the end are bishonen with pretty looks that could look remotely feminine).
You’re playing the game for the wrong reason if this is what you care about in fire emblem since it has little bearing on gameplay and zero on the story
Good video! If you haven't, you should read the Raven x Lucius support -- it's about as explicit as subtext can get. One small correction: Jeritza isn't paywalled. He was a free addition to the game, just late (clearly intended to be in from the beginning, but the game was rushed).
Thank you and I can't believe I missed that, I'll make sure to clarify in the description!
Just pinned this for the jeritza correction!
Damn, I never use Lucius so I forgot how gay they were together. Fuck, I'm gonna have to choose between Canas and Lucius for my guiding rings in future playthroughs now.
The Priam discussion has always bothered the. Ike being gay and Ike being sterile are two wildly different things. Why couldn’t he have had a surrogate mother help him start a family with Soren or Ranalf? Gays can have children, it’s happened for thousands of years.
For some of these characters while the S rank was pretty tamed, I found the wake up scenes were the most romantic. For example, with Diamant his S rank could be taken as platonic, but both his dialogue and voice acting in the two S-rank wake up scenes make it pretty explicit that the relationship is actually romantic and it seemed like they risk some minor flirting even as early as his B rank wake up.
Nice, I'll have to watch his wake up scenes! The only reason I excluded them is I wanted to focus on the supports since the wake up scenes are kinda easy to miss, especially if you aren't taking your time with Engage, but I wish I at least mentioned them!
I know it's a lot to ask for, but I'd love if in future games we could get *multiple* S-rank conversations for some characters: one platonic and one romantic.
Haha, we can dream at least!
Yeah, Persona and Fire Emblem need to continue influencing each other in this regard.
Didnt they used to have A+ Rank which basically was platonic relationship ?
@@I_Am54738 Fates had them, but they didn't have conversations and were purely for Friendship Sealing iirc. Three Houses was the only game to actually have A+ conversational supports. Personally though I feel that A+ being platonic and S being romantic implies a friendship can't possibly be as deep as a romance, which I'm not a fan of.
The "That's deserves a like" is more on the lines of "My body is ready" From Frederick, is, a meme.
So I think that Rosado was the one who friendzoned Alear since he is the one who puts the nail of the coffin calling the relationship a friendship
IMPO, I think the 'no-big-deal' vibe Engage went for in regards to queerness is just as valid as specifically mentioning queer issues. Like, sure, there are situations that happen specifically to queer folk that straight-cis people will never get, and having that in fiction is a good way to make them aware of that, but sometimes, I just want to have a good sapphic romance without all the gayngst. Yanno?
(Context; speaking as a cis-lesbian)
Definitely see where you're coming from and it's pretty close to how I feel about Engage. Like yeah, having queer characters in media who have that as part of their character is great and important, but it really doesn't feel like Engage is the place for that just with the whole energy the game has with romance taking more of a backseat anyway. A nice side effect of that is getting completely normalized and destigmatized relationships which is easy to appreciate!
Enby bisexual: I appreciate that it's not mired in queer suffering.
Hot take: engage making every character player sexual is good. Romance was never about representation but rather fan service. And I think it’s good for everyone to be romanceable regardless of gender cause everyone wins that way.
I know im a little late to the conversation but a lot of the lighter romantic s ranks get a lot more romantic in the unique wake-up events especially with diamant, he will confess his love for you in your sleep and tell you that you softened a warriors heart. Although Amber sadly still is completely ignorant to the fact that your married
It's so weird having Fogado be in the questionable state his S rank is, mostly because it's so incredibly obvious how it made into a platonic one. Replace 'ally' with 'boyfriend' and all of a sudden, lines like "I bet you ask everyone to be your ally" from Alear make *so* much more sense.
If you ask me, that whole scene just *reads* better if you replace the world ally with boyfriend lmao. It is so clearly meant to be a romantic scene that having them say ally over and over comes across as unintentionally funny to me. Like it’s so clear that it was meant to be romantic and still reads as such, but for some reason something was changed so that it couldn’t be and it was done in the quickest and easiest way possible.
The reason why people mention the localization a lot is that apparently it changed all S supports with characters under 18 (based on in-game ages) to be platonic. Since half the cast is ~16/17, you get characters like fogado inserting “friends” into the dialogue to make it seem platonic. Not sure what to think of it, but it does show a problem of a game about teenagers heavily encoring romance.
Yeah, it's a shame they don't make canon ages more obvious, like they literally had the character cards in the game, they could have just put the ages there!
@@garfieldkermit It's because clearly some of the ages changed at some point. (See: Saphir does not feel like she's only in her 30s-40s. Vander is... Not as young as he's stated!?)
For the engage s-ranks. You can tell whether they are supposed to be romantic by looking at which finger they are wearing the ring on. Intended romances wear it on the ring finger!
Completely missed that, I'll keep an eye out for it if I replay!
I have always liked Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn for their us of queer themes like found family.
I especially like the branded who are in universe mixed race, but serve as a pretty allegory effective for being gay, hitting on things like religious bigotry, familial abandonment, fear of being found out and don’t ask don’t tell. This allows characters like Soren to still deal with queer issues without a character like Ike being defined by queer suffering. It also makes Ike and Soren’s support read like a coming out scene (unfortunately this was censored by localization). It also gave us the shirtless tower scene with a certain spoiler character which is… very gay.
Also, the Edelgard ending was apparently more romantic in every language outside of English, so it is good to see localization is still up to their old tricks
Honestly, the more I hear about the the radiance games the more I want to play them, at this point I might just emulate. And that's interesting about Edelgard, it's a shame it got changed so much!
@@garfieldkermit I would definitely recommend playing them, warning since it is an older title the 5 support limit is still in place.
For the gay supports in POR I would recommend doing Ike and Soren (obviously), Zihark and Maurim, Mist and Jill (after chapter 20)(unfortunately this one is undone do to them going with BoydxMist and JillxHaar in the sequel), lastly Lucia and Ilyana (this one is weird as Lucia has a pretty gay solo ending in Radiant Dawn that talks about Elincia, but only has a paired ending with Bastian) (Ilyana, Zihark and Maurim have no endings in Radiant Dawn)
Then radiant dawn has a somewhat weird support system so you only get like a line or 2 Radiant Dawn, but pair have Ike talk to Soren, Edward and Leonardo, have Reyson talk to Tibarn, have Fiona talk to I think Leanne, Tanith talk to Sigrun (Of these only Ike and Soren have apaired ending. However, I do not mind too much, as when you have something as obvious as Nailah and Rafiel who are canonically married not have a paired ending, well...)
I think the best thing about Tellius is the general lack of deniability as when obvious straight ships don't go through it opens the door for queer ships and since so few characters have paired endings there is not the question of, but why doesn't x gay ship have one.
Also, in Radiant Dawn your eye out for parallels between IkexSoren, MiciahxSothe and a certain gay spoiler couple
These games have issues of course, especially when it comes to them trying to write more feminine traits into amab characters it makes characters like Kyza come off as offensive even when they are framed in a sympathetic light. While characters like Oliver and Valtome who are villains and not framed in a positive light, are just down right offensive because of this.
However, I will always love these games, because it felt like they cared and put in an effort in a way no other game really has, and I think the good in them far out shines the bad. Unfortunately, I think they are not talked about enough because of lack of knowledge and that people need things to be without a shadow of a doubt cannon for it to be considered representation, i.e. it needs to be obvious for 100% of a straight audience
Sorry, for the essay, but I hoped that helped
@@aureliumsol8572 Thanks for all the feedback, and yeah I've seen that most of the queer audeince for the duology acknowledge the queerness while the game still retains a little plausible deniability to avoid being canon. it's interesting to consider how the game would be changed if it was made now, another comment mentioned hoping it would get the echoes treatment and I agree since making games that people are so passionate about more legally accessible and with better support options seems to be a good idea!
@@garfieldkermit Personally, I think a remaster with voice acting and some additional supports (also just actual supports in Radiant Dawns case) would be best, as there are other games ahead of it for the echoes treatment and it would be unfair to skip them
Also, if you are playing through the games there will probably be things you miss without a greater knowledge of the series.
If you have a patreon I could contact you through there and explain them to you
@Aurelium Sol Nice! I'm not planning to play them that soon since I don't like to play games that are too similar that close together, so I'll wait a lil while and then play another FE game! Also don't have a patreon but I'm gonna make me discord public soon so I'll let you know when I do!
Great video, once again (and thanks for the shoutout)! And I absolutely love the thumbnail on this one, Botanautical did a great job!
I've never played any FE games, so my only direct exposure to these characters is via Smash Bros. But they've always struck me as being particularly popular among some of the queer friends I've made over the years. I wonder what it is about these games that attracts us, lol? Probably aesthetics. Anyway, I'm personally not a great fan of the 'quantum-sexuality' approach that's seen in Engage, where the characters are effectively bi (or pan) but *only* for the MC (seemingly). Because although it's a nice for fantasy fulfillment, it doesn't seem to say much narratively; and because it would be just as easy to flick that switch back off if the game ever gets ported somewhere with more strict laws against queer expression. That said, it's better than nothing.
Still, I do tend to prefer when a character is written to be the sexuality they are, and it's consequential to the story. But I like art that makes statements. That said, I can also appreciate when a characters sexuality *isn't* consequential, but it comes up in passing and is never really questioned or commented on... Like most of the queer characters in something like the Dragon Prince, for example. Honestly, I just like seeing queer characters in my media in general, as heroes and villains alike. As people.
Thanks again! And yeah representation is a weird one when it comes to the best form to get it in, and while I like what Engage did, making it a little harder to censor would always be appreciated!
While Three Houses was far from perfect, I do like how dynamic the potential romantic interactions between the non MC playable characters were. Not a lot in the way of explicitly gay characters, but, in addition to the more ambiguous examples, there's definitely a mix of explicitly straight, explicitly bi, and even ones you can basically differentiate as explicitly pan vs bi. Like, some characters have a few clear varied preferences between a partner that is the opposite sex vs one that that is the same, while others have very little regard for the gender/sex of characters they're interested in based on all the ways they can interact throughout the game, and that's not just in supports and endings.
Dorothea is a very good (but not the only) example of what I'm talking about. She starts the game off intending to use the Academy like it's a dating app. Since a pairing that can result in a blood related offspring would be the best at insuring the stable financial future she's interested in, she's trying to scout male prospects that she could be compatible with in a very transactional manner. But, when a girl strikes her fancy she can't help being a shameless flirt, even if it's pretty clear she is not considering any of the girls seriously for relationship goals right then, which actually causes a fair bit of trouble in some interactions (in particular, kinda love how Ingrid has no room for this girl nor the player making assumptions about her being a glammy tomboy, on top of the fact she's the de facto Pegasus Knight of the game, which is easily the unit archetype with the greatest likelihood of having at least one character with sapphic coding under its banner in each game of the franchise). Still, as things progress, Dorothea is really just a hopeless romantic at heart, and the only pairings that go anywhere for her are the ones with actual passion involved, her worries for a stable personal future always taking a back seat whenever things get serious no matter who she ends up with.
I'm personally Asexual, but am very in love with the idea of other people being in love with each other, so blanket wish fulfillment S Supports that make no distinction for gender do very little for me but smack of wasted potential. Not truly queer representation if no unique dynamics are in play at all, it's just an easy content redundancy clout grab. Technically better than nothing, but not REALLY if the series has already handled things with more nuance previously.
Plus, paired endings between all characters is such a staple part of the Fire Emblem series that helps give individual playthroughs better context with relatively little necessary effort from the developers (especially in a game with no branching paths). Losing out on those, both romantic and platonic, is a huge blow. ...Though, I suppose Engage basically wasn't going for a story with lasting impact, so maybe it was for the best? Might as well throw out the wish fulfillment bone if the most a story knowingly and purposefully aspires for is cheap entertainment.
I think my favorite queer-coded relationship in the series is Eirika and L’Arachel from Sacred Stones, whether or not it’s reciprocated L’Arachel practically proposes in their A support and even in the main story they’re pretty gay. I may just be biased but i think if they weren’t both women people would say they’re explicitly romantic
Nice, I'll have to check it out! And yeah, sometimes with queer subtext the best way to stop second guessing is to think 'this would be seen as romantic if it was straight' lmao
As someone who'd only seen Boucheron's and Alfred's S supports, I'm a bit sad to see that the actual amount of explicitly romantic/close enough to romantic supports is lower than I'd realized. Voiced romantic support dialogue between same gender characters was definitely a nice step up though.
I did feel like Engage had some playfully bisexual energy at times, probably because it (mostly? Always?) just has the same dialogue regardless of Alear's gender. A line that stood out to me was from Alfred near the start of the game, along the lines of "I'll be your sword and shield. Or a flower to comfort you" which struck me as so sweet, he instantly won me over.
Yes! I've seen so many people complain about Alfred, but he was genuinely one of my favorites, and I almost chose him instead of Bunet, he's such a sweet character and really captured the light-hearted tone of the game!
I love Diamant, I love his S support, but felt if they subtract word "fighting" and maybe "mutual support" then it gotten more romantic support, it's just I feel like there's no Hetero explanation for Diamant melting a medal to ring, which was so important to his support conversation with Alear.
The second Ivy appeared she was my Queen! 🥰 Hands down she was Alear's wife in my playthrough and probably always will be.
Honestly really appreciate engage for the route it went for queer representation. Video games are unique as medium in that they’re so much more interactive than any other type of storytelling. Making a world which bi-normative makes for really compelling interactivity for all players to create their own unique stories. If it were a heteronormative world with queer exceptions, it limits how you interact with the world and the characters within it.
I'm new to the series and am considering this my introduction to Firing my Emblem
Imo, the gayest Fire Emblem game by far is Warriors: Three Hopes. You have characters like Dorothea explicitly stating her bisexuality, as well as Shamir stating she's into women, plus Yuri implying that he's done his fair share of sleeping around with other men. Unlike other FE games, the player gets exposed to queerness outside of just S Supports, and I love how not subtle it is, too 🏳️🌈
Also included is lindhardt flirting with both versions of Shez in his support, lysithea and shez's supports is less explicit but still there imo, and several other supports too
Awesome video! I've been dreaming about good Fire Emblem representation since I headcanoned Miriel and Sully in Awakening. Somehow I've always felt the vibes were super queer in the series in general which is one of my favorites. Great examination of this topic :)
I don't know if someone else has mentioned it but Priam doesn't exactly confirm Ike's "straightness"
You see... Ike has a little sister named Mist who does happen to have a romantic love interest in Boyd's existence. I don't know much about Priam but it is also worth saying that the Ragnell isn't 100% tied to Ike's lineage so for all we care Priam may just be a fraud or a distant relative to Ike thanks to Mist.
So Ike may still be gay and happy with Soren/Ranulf woohoo !
I'm a bit late, but Awakening & Fates have had LGBT supports modded into them. Some are better written than others, but it's still fun to have the option.
I wouldn’t believe those articles that said the 16 romance options. I think all of them are romantic except citrine who’s platonic, and diamant and jade’s whos s supports are vague. I believe saphir’s s support is romantic since alear says “I love that about you”. Yunaka and boucherons also feel romantic to me. But yeah im glad I got options that aren’t just twinks and sadists. More power to people that like guys like them but they’re not my type.
I don't blame you, Niles has extremely archetypal Antisocial Personality Disorder that it's laughable. Feels like they just opened the DSM V and made Niles out of the symptoms lol. Like him having his own 'rules' he follows and thinking he's a moral and good person despite... yeah. Not a well known sign of APD but when you've seen it in so many APD patients your mental alarm system goes !!!
And it's also scary that so many people genuinely are attracted to his personality despite those signs. His spouse would very likely end up dead in a decade, comparing him to other antisocial patients. You can't help but feel sad for the poor suckers they manipulate into thinking they're nice and moral people, right up until they commit atrocities.
He maybe even has S^xual Sadism Disorder, but that's only a disorder if it causes disorder in your life, if you cope well you're good.
Sorry. Psychology is my area of study and the fact that characters like Niles are so genuinely liked (not liked as in lmao he's a mess, liked as in I Would Marry Him IRL) is really scary to me. Those are the people you end up seeing in therapy due to abuse or you end up seeing an obituary of. Breaks my damn heart...
Yeah, like the options pre-Engage were fine, but the lack of choice really sucks so I'm happy that people don't have to sacrifice their preferences as much in Engage!
I definitely appreciate the way genderlocked S supports were left out of Engage and how characters don't treat you any differently based on which avatar you chose. However, like you mentioned, this system makes having explicitly gay or lesbian characters impossible in the way that Ike and Leon were portrayed. While having bisexual characters is good and meaningful itself, it stings a bit to be railroaded out of specific gay or lesbian experiences/conversations, and makes the GBA supports almost feel better at adequately representing queerness. I can't say I have a solution for this; IntSys has a track record of choosing queer romantic options that are heavy and often hurtful stereotypes, but making everyone just catch-all bi shafts potential narratives. Can't win em all, but what we have now is better than what Awakening/Fates gave and I appreciate that a lot.
I grew up always playing male avatars to have the option to romance women in games like Harvest Moon while swearing back and forth that I was definitely not a lesbian (suppressed religious upbringing etc etc). When Awakening came out I was still in denial but once again chose M!Robin, and then M!Corrin, because I "just wasn't interested in any of the male options". Silly to admit that FE may have helped me both cope and realize some things about myself. To have the option to choose otherwise nowadays is something I'm super grateful for from my favorite franchise, and I'm cautiously optimistic for future entries.
Anyway, I appreciate the video! There is a long history of subtle queer narratives in FE that deserves attention, so thank you for also linking to those discussions.
Glad you enjoyed it! I'm hoping that it does get better after this since regressing after Engage would be a shame, but yeah if they include it as an actual character trait it would be appreciated!
Jeritza is free DLC actually... buuuuuut is only available in one of the 4 routes
Can't win , can win :v?
Ah i didn't know he was locked to a certain route, which one is it?
@@garfieldkermit Crimson Flower exclusively.
Interesting video. I've done a few videos myself on queer subtext in FE, most notably a big comparison of Three Houses and Three Hopes in that regard. I also have a much older piece on the entire series up to Three Houses...but that was one of the first videos I ever made and isn't terribly high quality.
Anyway, it's good that you've acknowledged this series's long history of subtext, but I wouldn't count out the more recent games in that regard either. I've never cared for the odd self-insert quality of Avatars and how their gender variability can lead to some lazy decisions (recycled scripts and, as you pointed out, the knowledge that their S rank options are basically a menu toggle that IS chose not to flip until Engage). That's why I tend to overlook them in favor of more of the probably unintentional subtext like what can be found in older games. I outright left the Avatars out of my big Houses/Hopes comparison, for example, and still found over an hour's worth of discussion material for the other characters. It's perhaps not deliberate queer representation, but it can be entertaining nonetheless.
Yeah it seems like there is a really rich history of queer subtext in the series, I'll have to check out your videos!
Maren the wolf girl, is technically a furry She really loves animals a little too much, that she is attracted that you’re a dragon so.❤❤❤
Mauvier x Alear is by FAR my favorite, but I admit bias because Veyle deserves good things. I left a whole rant going over their A and S Support in detail, but in summary, thanks to Alear, Mauvier feels happiness for the first time in a VERY long time, and in the S Support they're both extremely mindful of each other and their emotions, and I think they're one of the sweetest pairings in the game.
Edit: Here's the Long Rant if you care!
I'm EXTREMELY passionate about Mauvier x Alear compared to literally EVERY other ship in the game!
First it was just the Vibes (Veyle's sibling and her knight, because she deserves to be surrounded by people who love her), but then I went through the supports and started to genuinely adore the pairing. Alear believes wholeheartedly that Mauvier is a good person who simply strayed on his path, and wants to help in any way they can. Mauvier is convinced he can never atone for his actions, no matter how much good he's doing in the current day. In their A-Support, Alear finally breaks down some of his walls and Mauvier feels whole-hearted happiness for what is implied to be the first time in a VERY long time, and credits Alear for helping him find his path again.
In their S Support, Alear comments on how much more Mauvier smiles than before, showcasing an actual lasting impact Alear's actions have had on him, and Mauvier states that Alear helped him learn to trust again, both himself and others. Alear, in a shocking turn of events, decides AGAINST presenting the Pact Ring in a show of cold feet. Mauvier finds it strange that Alear hid something from him, and notices the Pact Ring dropped on the ground. Mauvier then quickly reasons out why Alear would have it ("Divine One... do you mean to...") before quickly pivoting to requesting the ring for himself ("Will you give me this ring?") in a move to, I believe, not put Alear on the spot. Mauvier knows that Alear is nervous, and that they hid the Pact Ring because they intended to propose but lost courage, so he does it for them. Alear clarifies that requesting the ring makes them partners, and askes if that's what Mauvier wants. Mauvier then confesses his love, saying that Alear saved him, body and soul, and that his feeling of thankfulness grew until Alear was extremely special to him. Upon seeing the Pact Ring, he finally acknowledged those feelings, but notes that he's not yet worthy of the ring. He asks Alear to wait for him, until he's worthy of it. It is now Alear's turn to confess; this is when they reveal that they're drawn to Mauvier's kind heart and have attempted to propose SEVERAL times before losing courage, and that they're thankful Mauvier asked for them. This showcases that they ALREADY believe that Mauvier is worthy of the ring, so much so that they wanted to propose several times, never second guessing their decision because of MAUVIER, but because they lost courage. They explicitly state that the only reason they haven't proposed before now is because they were scared. They had so much time to rethink their decision, but they always knew Mauvier was worthy, it never crossed their mind that he wasn't, which I think is one of the sweetest things in any of these S Supports.
I also believe this is the only support where Alear shows genuine cold feet before proposing, especially this strong (usually it's just brief hesitation or nervousness, not what's implied to be several separate instances on separate days of not having the courage to propose) but I could be wrong. The only reason Alear gets the courage is because Mauvier finds it strange that Alear hid something from him and sees the Pact Ring, and I think it's sweet that Mauvier knows that Alear's nervous and decides against putting them on the spot, instead confessing his own feelings first. They briefly comment on Veyle (who noticed they were in love before either of them, yay for Veyle), before Alear proposes and Mauvier accepts. Mauvier says that he never thought he'd feel happiness, but that now he'll know nothing else, and he'll always remain by Alear's side.
Sorry for the long rant but these two are adorable and I love them. I genuinely think this is one of the sweetest pairings in the game, and I love that they're so mindful of each other's emotions. Alear helps Mauvier to realize that he deserves to feel happy, while not minimizing his actions, only emphasizing what good he's CURRENTLY doing, and Mauvier notices Alear's nervousness and decides to confess his love first, so they're not put on the spot with a potentially embarrassing or anxiety-inducing question. It's so sweet that they support each other, and at this point the thing that drew me to this ship (Veyle's two favorite people loving each other and protecting her as their family) is just a nice bonus!
Thank you for the long comment, I always love to see what people think about the Engage romances (especially since engage seems to be kind of underappreciated already which sucks), I never romanced Mauvier but it's great to see his character had so much depth! :)
Also spoilers for the story of engage.
I feel like alears story can easily be read as a trans allegory. A fell dragon who hates that they were born fell and to an abusive father leaves home and becomes a divine dragon where they are more comfortable in their skin.
The lines the lords have after the reveal are also very similarl ines of support to how people might react to a trans friend
I was able to play Fire Emblem POR and RD late last year and I wish they would remaster these games and make them accessible again because, even though they weren't my first Fire emblem game, they became my favorites for so many reasons.
Same! They're so expensive for how relatively modern they are, and with how popular the series is, a remake would make so much sense!
Girl how could you skip three houses?
If i say because Claude wasn't bi is that petty??
But genuinely because the trailers didn't really grab me, I'd also felt pretty burned out after playing all 3 routes of Fates, so another long game that encouraged 3 long playthroughs just felt like too much of an undertaking - I'll probably go back to it at some point, but I'll have to be in the mood for something so long :)
speaking of subtext. 3 houses has that, like, alot.
Nice! Have you got any favorite examples?
@@garfieldkermit not that many since most of these are ones that other people have mentioned (and i havent played all the routes or gotten all the supports) but from what I remember most of the blue lion males apperently can be seen with subtext, Sylvain at the bare minimum has a support where he is mentioned that he flirted with a man once (though i cant remember if it was by accident), additionally I have seen people point to Mercedes and Petra as having bisexual energy and some people also mention hilda and marriane but that could just be shipping.
on another note the voice actor for cklaude actually would have liked for claude to have been another same sex option, when someone made an edit of his ending to have male byleth instead of female byleth he responded with support.
also i dont know the validity of these claims BUT i remeber someone saying that claude and raphael were intended to be same sex romance options at some point in development, not that they gave any proof, and If i am being honest, i think this might just have been wishful thinking (with claude having those bisexual undertones himself and being a lord and raphael fitting in with the macho or "bara" stereotype that gay men tend to gravitate towards)
I definitely recommend at least watching the 3 houses support conversations at some point in time, the game not so much since it can be a bit of a slog but I (from an outsiders) perspective do think 3 houses has much better and mush more well developed characters than engage, and you might be able to see where these ideas come from, since I am usually pretty bad with subtext.
@@garfieldkermit oh and uh also, the radiant games have like, a fuck ton of speculated same sex romance or at the very lest have a ton of people who headcannon queer romances between the chracters, due to the circles I am in this is speculated when it comes to the laguz royals as well as elincia and nephenie.
honestly, i hope we can get a remake of this game soon, and that it gets the echos treatment, so that we get a lot more about these characters and mabey even some new ones that flesh the story out more.
@@garfieldkermit last reply and I'm really sorry to be bothering you like this but i just remembered that in sacred stones some people believe lyon is bisexual due to him stating that he at one point loved ephiam. I am not sure if this is different in the Japanese version however.
sorry again😅
@@iguessthisismyworkaccountl8437 Haha no need to apologize I appreciate it! I did watch a couple of the supports in 3h for research but since I haven't interacted with the characters too much otherwise it is hard to get fully attached. However, it is nice to see so many people approaching it subtextually! And also big on the radiance games getting the echoes treatment, from what I've seen the stories are well liked but apparently the gameplay is a bit of a slog, at this point I think I would probably just watch a playthrough!
lmao when I first saw supports were fully bi (I got people arguing that they're pan, but you get me) I screamed lmao. I was quite hesitant on wether I should buy it or not since I care a lot about the story, but I decided to jump for it just for that (Because I'm also quite interested in the dating sim paart ;v)
Also I always saw Lindon's support as overtly romantic since they decide to be partners and even though the word doesn't necessarily mean romantically in engage it seems to be used in almost all romantic supports and also I think in his wake up events he mentions 'you chose this old fellow as your partner' which imo implies exclusivity? and idk I feel a bit like a detective trying to read some romances in engage but I still like it better this way
Lindon is married tho...
@@AnakhaSilver was* his late wife has explicitly died long ago, so imo he is available despite of that (if anything, I see the devs clarifying she's dead rather than waiting for him at home as them making it clear he's an option)
Pandreo
Lyndon as a character was hilarious. Wouldn’t have said no to getting him earlier instead of other characters that I didn’t care for (which was a lot of them, unfortunately).
9:20 I would give SA correction to all of them.
I chose Chloé for F!Alear, and Pandreo, Alcryst, and Louis got to fight over M!Alear. I think Engage did a good job, the placement of the ring annoys me for the Likely Romantic options, but whatever, at least the dialogue is good, I am not going to be picky about which finger the ring is on
Fun fact, miitopia was rated 18+ in russa for havibg implied seame sex relationships when the game makes it vaige on perpose so that you dont marry your gramma or whatver.
You cant win with some poeple
As much as engage is a step forward, the supports are similar to fates and 3 houses in the fact that every character has to be romance options and all avatar protags (barring Robin as they're written more as a character than a avatar) are blank slates and most of the supports fall flat. Corrin plot and support wise is the nice character everyone loves and gets by purely by that in supports, Byleth listens and offers advice and different perspectives, and Alear does the same. While some supports feel genuine, most of them feel forced and fall flat because they don't have much personality to offer and most rep in the 2 games prior are more plentiful and genuine with the side character supports with each other whether outright stated or in subcontext as even with good characterization, all 3 protags still get reminded of their titles and in some cases it's used in some occasions to separate the two characters in their supports like Alear and Pandreo's support where Pandreo confesses his love but states it can't happen because of their differences in positions and while it's been used throughout the years with different supports it's shown more with the avatars since they arguably have less to work with beyond their titles and limited characterization. Engage does a lot more with representation than any title for romance option and it's great but it still feels off for every character to fall in love with someone flat (personality wise) that offers nothing beyond being nice and showing interest in their past or hobbies and I understand avatars being a blank state but when they're this involved in the plot and have connections to the cast outside of supports (family, long time friends, etc.) they need to have more of a personality and showcase their interests and hobbies more or make them more relatable
Alear isn't... Flat tho? The poor kid has like. Negative self esteem, obvious PTSD, etc. You being unable to catch on to the subtler parts of their personality is on you.
@@AnakhaSilver here's the thing though: none of that is a new or unique take for the avatar protags. Insecurities? After learning about what they did in the parallel timeline and what they could become, Robin had insecurities and Corrin (in conquest especially) is riddled with them. PTSD? Corrin, within a short span, loses their mentor and father figure, their mom, has to choose between siblings, in all but revelations loses some of those siblings, loses their half sibling and their cousin, and watches their step father die in front of em as a child, and (in conquest) has to commit acts that goes against their morals just so they can live and for their (foster) father's entertainment and both Byleth and Robin show signs of it too. I'm not saying that the characters are completely felt themselves it's just they all feel like repeats and like they have a criteria to fill (ex. a parent die in front of them, memory loss, evil parent, etc.) only main difference is alear is the only one to not only sacrifice themselves for a sibling, but also the only one to die and come back 3 times. The point of supports is to give us insight on the character's personality since a majority of them don't get screentime outside of their beginning chapter, a character specific prologue, or if the character is relevant to the chapter and the avatars don't really provide a whole lot. Robin loves tactics and will collect books and keep the army in top condition, Corrin collects knickknacks works hard while chatting with the army over their interests, Byleth trains and advises the army while occasionally taking time to deal with their godlike status, and Alear completes some or all of those to some effect. A majority of supports will call attention to their status, then talk about the other characters while the protag shows interest, then the characters will express endearment and that's about it, no real time spent on building a background on the character and giving them more of a personality that the main story doesn't and there's not a lot of avatar supports that do that and that's the point I was trying to make. We know the protag has issues but it's seen (for the most part) exclusively in the main story, not the supports so we don't really get character building outside of whatever tidbits we get. The only avatar protag we learn a lot about from is Corrin and that's due to how many characters know them personally and it's not saying much since the writing (at least in the localization) isn't the greatest so while Alear has some character it's nothing new or developed much outside the main story and I hope this gets my point across better
@@nobraincelljustworm Just because it's not new or unique doesn't make it FLAT. Also like. Corrin is a horrible example of PTSD, given that they NEVER show it. Fates is a TERRIBLE example of writing, and Byleth is ACTUALLY flat characterization-wise. Byleth is ESPECIALLY big on the sin of being a flat character.
As for most characters not getting much screentime... I mean, people need to pick between characters making a tone of appearances or permadeath. It would take TONS of coding to code for every variation of characters living vs dead. Bylteth's personality is "teacher and former mercenary." Corrin is "hopelessly naive and thinks wars can be won with smiles and friendship."
Meanwhile, Alear is a lot subtler but like... They have more of their history fleshed out than Robin and I ADORE Robin. All we know about Robin's history is "was born in Plegia, mom ran away when infant with them, somehow ended really far south in Ylisse???"
@@AnakhaSilver as I said it feels flat to me (my opinion) since a lot of story beats alear goes through are repeats when it's boiled down in a nutshell and I never said alear's character is completely flat I said their SUPPORTS FEEL flat due to it being a reuse of avatar protags' support system. Fates is bad story wise but I appreciate what small effort is shown in the gradual breaking down of corrin in conquest and how their interests and hobbies are brought up in supports and Byleth is next to both Mark and Kris in terms of flatness avatar wise especially since we get the game telling us byleth is opening up but we don't see it. Robin is the best example of a avatar that is both a balance of a blank slate that fits in the story as while they have story relevance at least part of the story would work fine without their inclusion and while they show emotion, Robin is good at being in the background. Why the supports feel flat is because alear is HEAVILY involved in the story and they're treated as a blank slate avatar which in the case of corrin onwards doesn't work because they're either completely bland or have too much story relevance and personality to be a avatar and with a character heavily involved the avatar support system doesn't work because it's a character making note of the avatars' position (ie their status like prince/ess, teacher, etc.), the avatar learning about the other character, and then the avatar gets married after said character confesses their love for the avatar. We don't learn anything about the avatar in the supports because they're being treated as a blank slate so we can insert ourselves and the problem is AGAIN the fact that the avatars are so involved in the story and have a clear personality but all of that gets thrown away when it comes to the supports and even story wise alear follows the avatar criteria (dead parent/s, evil parent, etc.) so story wise sometimes they feel flat because it's been done before and yeah they have a different reaction and it affects them differently it starts feeling bland and to some extent forced or lazy writing, it's not a attack on alear but a call to attention why alear's supports feel flat because they're so involved to the story that them being a avatar (a blank slate that uses the generic avatar protag support formula like Robin (though it works better for them) corrin, and byleth) works against them because of their story involvement
I'm a bit saddened that you ddin't talk about Lucius x Raven, even though they are not confirmed they are heavily implied to basically left everyone else and live together
I wanted to avoid talking about the games I hadn't played too much, but from what I've seen from the comments they seem like a very popular couple!
I do think you miss the mark on Diamant, because he's a lot more subtle. Because that's the kind of person he is. He's more a person of action than words--so the melting down to make a ring says it all.
Also, Rosado, if anything, is a trans MAN??? Also he always read as explicitly aroace.
...Also Ghirahim uh. Is more than stereotypes. He literally says that he and Link are tied by the "red thread of fate" which is pretty romantic in Japan? So that's... Not subtle at all.
I played as the female character and she gets hit on a lot by both male and female characters.🥰🥰🥰🥰
I can’t go five minutes without some of the characters hitting on me or stalking me just wanted to stare at us when we’re sleeping.
Or they won’t stop talking about how hot my character is in both the males and females are saying that even villains will hit on too.😮😮😮😮😮😮
You don't like three houses
I can get it it can be a bit much on war crimes
Soleil's story was not interpreted by "many fans" as a conversion therapy story. It was seen that way by people who never even played the game and were going off of a sarcastic tweet and also like to pretend bisexuals don't exist. Just like how no one who's actually played these games thinks Forrest and Rosado are trans, considering that no, NEITHER of those characters are "hinted at being trans women".
Also, wow, imagine genuinely saying Vivian, Tony, Isabelle and Bolson don't actually count or matter as representation. And saying Bolson being any kind of representation at all is entirely in our imaginations and we're only saying he's gay because of stereotypes...minutes after trying to claim Rosado and Forrest are hinted at being trans in their respective games just because they're femboys with gender-nonconforming appearances, interests and personalities.
👏👏👏👏🌈
:)
I personally feel like three houses did queer representation better than engage. Engage approached same sex relationships via all characters being "player sexual" meaning that any romanceable characters can be romanced regardless of gender. Which is a step in the right direction, but kind of a cop out for real representation as it doesn't directly acknowledge if the relationship is same sex or not heteronormative and usually ignores gender all together. While three houses same sex relationships were technically via bisexual characters, they would directly acknowledge romantic feelings between the same sex characters, something that was a lot more vague and glossed over in engage.
Chloe's skill is literally being bisexual and Merrin's is literally being sapphic. Vs "sike, this is actually platonic when you thought it would be romantic!" in Three Houses for most of the men that AREN'T locked behind Ashen Wolves and "Heehee, only attractive wimminz and tiny loli dwagon" for the women. I MUCH prefer Engage, because you get things like Etie and Goldmary who feel like their FOREPLAY is arguing with each other, as an example. I'm enby so something about the way Three Houses handled it, like it was mostly candy for the straights (note all the dudes you CAN marry in the end are bishonen with pretty looks that could look remotely feminine).
You’re playing the game for the wrong reason if this is what you care about in fire emblem since it has little bearing on gameplay and zero on the story
Such a pointless thing to rant about 🤣🤣🤣