Would the Nürnbergisches Gesangbuch 1677 in block chords provide better training for composers than the Neapolitan practical counterpoint tradition? Really!?
@@petervantour5008 this question is not correctly formulated. You are comparing a book of musical works with a pedagogical tradition, and forgetting that this book comes more or less from same tradition or is coherently associated to it. The start with harmonisation of choral melodies however, will provide a better result than starting with the instrumental partimentos focused on concert performance.
@@petervantour5008 I compare harmonization with through vs. partimento in the early stages of education of a composer in general. Not the way you formulated the question (by the way no counterpoint). Anyways I am honored by your comment since you are an author of an influencial book. Thanks very much for the question!
Navigating the intricacies of partimentos and figured bass becomes a potential stumbling block or as you call it, "trap", only when one rigidly adheres to the rules without allowing for creative deviations. It embodies the philosophy of "learning the rules before breaking them." In the realm of music, a creative discipline, experimentation is crucial for the evolution of new musical styles. Despite the stringent traditions of the Neapolitan times, music students often find themselves compelled to adhere strictly to the teachings of their instructors. In acknowledging the ever-changing landscape of modern audiences and their distinct musical preferences, it's evident that the rules of the past may not always align with contemporary tastes. Partimento and Figured bass, once integral but now somewhat overlooked, stand as a testament to the disciplined era they originated from. The revival of improvisation in jazz by musicians offers a glimpse into a realm where rules are bent, if not broken entirely. Gjerdingen's work appears as a rediscovery of this lost musical art or, perhaps, an astute deduction of recurring patterns during the historical periods when partimentos and figured bass were prevalent. His findings shed light on the dynamic relationship between structure and creativity within musical history.
It is this but not only this. The whole thing is more taught as a discipline for early music performers than for composers. For quantitative reasons we have more research and material by and for these people. So there is less interest in the contemporarity of the matter - from aesthetic point of view - and in the experimentation, as you said. But even for basic didactic purposes, key is the melodic line, and this misses in most of the partimento methods, because they aim to advanced students, considered as professional musicians, principally professional ACCOMPANISTS. It just happens that most of the people still can’t harmonize a melody… And for a composer, this is a crucial skill that comes before figuration and tricks to sound polyphonic. It all comes to understand that some disciplines are called historic for a reason… and they are part of especialized studies. For harpsichord players all the partimentos are vital. For organists and composers it is relative, and this new trend can be a „trap“ and the secret to annoying melodies: because it anulates the evolution of music from Haydn on and on towards melodic and harmonic inventions than supress the hegemony of the bass line and 4 part harmony as source of harmonic and musical ideas.
@@LearnCompositionOnline You know the great romantic masters learned from partimento right? They did not have a problem with melody. It's not about "sounding polyphonic" it's recognizing the link between counterpoint and melody through monody
I've started with partimento recently, what bibliography would you recommend to learn the classical style of harmony and counterpoint, from the perspective of mozart, for example?
Hallo! Thanks for the question. I get this question all the time … There is NO BOOK, because your practice and the ARTISTIC feedback with philosophical and scientific basis (what means a lot of experience reading and writing ) is what matters most. Most artists are doing art, not writing books. Principally if i don’t know you i can’t recommend books unless i recommend a lot of books. For example: not everyone is able to read Diether De La Motte, and even if one could, his books are AN EXAMPLE of how to teach and study, not „The Thing“. Some exercises by Hindemith and some considerations by Schoenberg are equally important, but you can’t depend on their books without losing time and risking not achieving your goal better and faster. You have to combine a set of things and musical disciplines togheter and improvisation is in the core or this, beyond partimento. Improvised harmonisation of melodies comes as equally important and this Praxis was obvious for an ancient composer. This is what i do on my lessons and my channel gives a preview for this as I can in a TH-cam format. You can book a consultation for 50€ and I give you a customised program . If you can’t do this, practice piano, watch the videos that are there first, search for Keller „Schule des Generalbassspiels“ or equivalent, and the Harmony of Diether de La Motte. One gives practice and the other gives historical and stilistical understanding, but this is not a guaranteed recommendation because i don’t know you. I got recently a fixed position as Kantor, and probably know what i talk about ;)
Hallo! Thanks for the question. I get this question all the time … There is NO „the BOOK“ , because your practice and the ARTISTIC feedback with philosophical and scientific basis (what means a lot of experience reading and writing ) is what matters most. Most artists are doing art, not writing books. Principally if i don’t know you i can’t recommend books unless i recommend a lot of books - --👆this does NOT mean i also don’t use books as primary sources (instead pf youtube!!)---. For example: not everyone is able to read Diether De La Motte, and even if one could, his books are AN EXAMPLE of how to teach and study, not „The Thing“. Some exercises by Hindemith and some considerations by Schoenberg are equally important, but you can’t depend on their books without losing time and risking not achieving your goal better and faster. You have to combine a set of things and musical disciplines togheter and improvisation is in the core or this, beyond partimento. Improvised harmonisation of melodies comes as equally important and this Praxis was obvious for an ancient composer. This is what i do on my lessons and my channel gives a preview for this as I can in a TH-cam format. You can book a consultation for 50€ and I give you a customised program . If you can’t do this, practice piano, watch the videos that are there first, search for Keller „Schule des Generalbassspiels“ or equivalent, and the Harmony of Diether de La Motte. One gives practice and the other gives historical and stilistical understanding, but this is not a guaranteed recommendation because i don’t know you. I got recently a fixed position as Kantor, and probably know what i talk about ;)
@@LearnCompositionOnline If he wants to learn how to compose like Mozart he should learn the way Mozart learned. You can disagree with the methods, but they are 100% the way to learn to compose like Mozart. Partimento is just a part of that, but pointing him toward useful resources won't make you 50/hr. Not sure what you being a Kantor has to do with it tbh
Hi, I'm currently doing a lengthy Partimento course with someone online. I've nothing but good to say about my experience. You are of course correct to say that courses like this won't reveal the genius for example Handel shows here: th-cam.com/video/G2iwJCLe1pg/w-d-xo.html but what does? Does Prout, does Kitson? does Schenker? Of course they don't. But for someone who grew up musically untrained, everything helps. The goal is to get inside the scores of Handel, Scarlatti, Bach, & apply all knowledge gained, & from there you're on your own... the fun starts. You have enough ammunition to begin trying to figure out for yourself what makes their works great. One should also study invertible counterpoint, canon etc & realise how important the introduction of elements horizontally helps... the dynamics of Time. Also for example, I'm learning how to use the basic fact of prepared dissonances to give me confidence of what is truly happening on the upbeats & downbeats. My name is Sean & I'm from Ireland. Thanks for your video.
@@LearnCompositionOnline Thanks for your gracious response Brother. But do you think I'm right or wrong on this? I'd really appreciate your opinion. I think the key to musical study for the sake of composition is being confident in distinguishing between the esssential, as Kitson rightly called it & the inessential. After this, all is good. Its just people like me, who weren't priveleged to have a musical upbringing, never had the chance for this. People born into music, often don't just get how blessed they were. Personally my natural background was highly musical but I was adopted so though in a truly loving family, I never got the piano lessons etc. Sometimes I think that if Mozart, Beethoven had been born into bog standard families they simply would have become delinquents because their creativity would have had no outlet. I think its an interesting point!
It is so: basically i give the advice that leads people to be a better film composer or better church musician and get employed as i do. I give my own proof of the theory. In this sense, more general bass with chorals als partimento, helps to get a faster result regarding solid craftsmanship. But the partimento stays important, today i opened a mass based on a partimento line: this was the quickest way to give the lamento tone for the Passion, and a quick way to sketch a improvisation of many notes on right hand
@@LearnCompositionOnline Thanks. Maybe we'll be in touch again. You're clearly a classy guy who cares enough to respond thoughtfully to strangers. God Bless & Best Wishes. Sean.
@@franciscoaragao5398 I am not drunk in this video. If I were drunk, why do you waste 7:57 minutes watching and more one commenting? Watching your channel i realised that you have a lot to teach…
i have to check out again, i guess you speak about 46 Vorspiele by j.C. Bach, i gonna post in the community tab . But all my books are going into boxes right now...!
Answering before some people ask again (idk why): It is about the difference between partimento and figured bass, especially choral, from the pedagogical point of view . The video is not about explaining the rule of octave. It is also in a big part for whom already knows about it.
I'm gonna risk to offer unrequested advice, but I've noticed that you're getting negative comments that aren't really constructive. It's true that, even if you warn that it is an improvised video, a scheme of what you want to convey can help following the information and avoid unnecessary repetitions. Also, the use of the word trap in the title feels like clickbait. What you want to warn is against it as the only tool in the composer's, but it looks like you dismiss the "American partimento school", and the polemizing tone doesn't fit so well the content. Now for the actual content, I'd say that the question you pose is somehow sterile; as you mention, this practice is directed towards a craftsmanship that fell out of fashion in favour of other methods. It is sort of back to the roots movement, so it's not pursuing the XIX - XXth composers ideas. And there's nothing wrong with that, right? Hope this helps you!
No nothing wrong, since many ways leads to home. But for who wants to be a composer under my teaching framework , there is the problem i mention, principally regarding melodic, harmonization, and also motivation.
@@LearnCompositionOnline I'm studying harpsichord, and teach music for a living. What I find very compelling of this approach is the importance given back to improvisation, as the practical knowledge that stands between composition and interpretation. Music as a language that once all composers were fluent in.
@@CTABPOGIN for musicians it is only good, better than reapeting concerts. The preludes non-mensures are excellent for interpretations. FLorian Birsak teached me then exactly for this.
@@wibewin3835 the video is not about explaining the rule of octave. It is also in a big part for whom already knows about it. It is about the difference between partimento and figured bass, especially choral, from the pedagogical point of view
Would the Nürnbergisches Gesangbuch 1677 in block chords provide better training for composers than the Neapolitan practical counterpoint tradition? Really!?
@@petervantour5008 this question is not correctly formulated. You are comparing a book of musical works with a pedagogical tradition, and forgetting that this book comes more or less from same tradition or is coherently associated to it. The start with harmonisation of choral melodies however, will provide a better result than starting with the instrumental partimentos focused on concert performance.
Well, it was not me who made this comparison 😀.
@@petervantour5008 I compare harmonization with through vs. partimento in the early stages of education of a composer in general. Not the way you formulated the question (by the way no counterpoint). Anyways I am honored by your comment since you are an author of an influencial book. Thanks very much for the question!
Navigating the intricacies of partimentos and figured bass becomes a potential stumbling block or as you call it, "trap", only when one rigidly adheres to the rules without allowing for creative deviations. It embodies the philosophy of "learning the rules before breaking them." In the realm of music, a creative discipline, experimentation is crucial for the evolution of new musical styles. Despite the stringent traditions of the Neapolitan times, music students often find themselves compelled to adhere strictly to the teachings of their instructors.
In acknowledging the ever-changing landscape of modern audiences and their distinct musical preferences, it's evident that the rules of the past may not always align with contemporary tastes. Partimento and Figured bass, once integral but now somewhat overlooked, stand as a testament to the disciplined era they originated from. The revival of improvisation in jazz by musicians offers a glimpse into a realm where rules are bent, if not broken entirely.
Gjerdingen's work appears as a rediscovery of this lost musical art or, perhaps, an astute deduction of recurring patterns during the historical periods when partimentos and figured bass were prevalent. His findings shed light on the dynamic relationship between structure and creativity within musical history.
It is this but not only this. The whole thing is more taught as a discipline for early music performers than for composers. For quantitative reasons we have more research and material by and for these people. So there is less interest in the contemporarity of the matter - from aesthetic point of view - and in the experimentation, as you said. But even for basic didactic purposes, key is the melodic line, and this misses in most of the partimento methods, because they aim to advanced students, considered as professional musicians, principally professional ACCOMPANISTS. It just happens that most of the people still can’t harmonize a melody… And for a composer, this is a crucial skill that comes before figuration and tricks to sound polyphonic. It all comes to understand that some disciplines are called historic for a reason… and they are part of especialized studies. For harpsichord players all the partimentos are vital. For organists and composers it is relative, and this new trend can be a „trap“ and the secret to annoying melodies: because it anulates the evolution of music from Haydn on and on towards melodic and harmonic inventions than supress the hegemony of the bass line and 4 part harmony as source of harmonic and musical ideas.
@@LearnCompositionOnline You know the great romantic masters learned from partimento right? They did not have a problem with melody. It's not about "sounding polyphonic" it's recognizing the link between counterpoint and melody through monody
Thank for this video and I love this song and the composition.
Thx! Do you mean the last one?
Yes, the Christmas song.@@LearnCompositionOnline
I've started with partimento recently, what bibliography would you recommend to learn the classical style of harmony and counterpoint, from the perspective of mozart, for example?
Hallo! Thanks for the question. I get this question all the time … There is NO BOOK, because your practice and the ARTISTIC feedback with philosophical and scientific basis (what means a lot of experience reading and writing ) is what matters most. Most artists are doing art, not writing books. Principally if i don’t know you i can’t recommend books unless i recommend a lot of books. For example: not everyone is able to read Diether De La Motte, and even if one could, his books are AN EXAMPLE of how to teach and study, not „The Thing“. Some exercises by Hindemith and some considerations by Schoenberg are equally important, but you can’t depend on their books without losing time and risking not achieving your goal better and faster. You have to combine a set of things and musical disciplines togheter and improvisation is in the core or this, beyond partimento. Improvised harmonisation of melodies comes as equally important and this Praxis was obvious for an ancient composer.
This is what i do on my lessons and my channel gives a preview for this as I can in a TH-cam format. You can book a consultation for 50€ and I give you a customised program .
If you can’t do this, practice piano, watch the videos that are there first, search for Keller „Schule des Generalbassspiels“ or equivalent, and the Harmony of Diether de La Motte. One gives practice and the other gives historical and stilistical understanding, but this is not a guaranteed recommendation because i don’t know you.
I got recently a fixed position as Kantor, and probably know what i talk about ;)
Hallo! Thanks for the question. I get this question all the time … There is NO „the BOOK“ , because your practice and the ARTISTIC feedback with philosophical and scientific basis (what means a lot of experience reading and writing ) is what matters most. Most artists are doing art, not writing books. Principally if i don’t know you i can’t recommend books unless i recommend a lot of books - --👆this does NOT mean i also don’t use books as primary sources (instead pf youtube!!)---. For example: not everyone is able to read Diether De La Motte, and even if one could, his books are AN EXAMPLE of how to teach and study, not „The Thing“. Some exercises by Hindemith and some considerations by Schoenberg are equally important, but you can’t depend on their books without losing time and risking not achieving your goal better and faster. You have to combine a set of things and musical disciplines togheter and improvisation is in the core or this, beyond partimento. Improvised harmonisation of melodies comes as equally important and this Praxis was obvious for an ancient composer.
This is what i do on my lessons and my channel gives a preview for this as I can in a TH-cam format. You can book a consultation for 50€ and I give you a customised program .
If you can’t do this, practice piano, watch the videos that are there first, search for Keller „Schule des Generalbassspiels“ or equivalent, and the Harmony of Diether de La Motte. One gives practice and the other gives historical and stilistical understanding, but this is not a guaranteed recommendation because i don’t know you.
I got recently a fixed position as Kantor, and probably know what i talk about ;)
@@LearnCompositionOnline If he wants to learn how to compose like Mozart he should learn the way Mozart learned. You can disagree with the methods, but they are 100% the way to learn to compose like Mozart. Partimento is just a part of that, but pointing him toward useful resources won't make you 50/hr. Not sure what you being a Kantor has to do with it tbh
Hi, I'm currently doing a lengthy Partimento course with someone online. I've nothing but good to say about my experience. You are of course correct to say that courses like this won't reveal the genius for example Handel shows here: th-cam.com/video/G2iwJCLe1pg/w-d-xo.html but what does? Does Prout, does Kitson? does Schenker? Of course they don't. But for someone who grew up musically untrained, everything helps. The goal is to get inside the scores of Handel, Scarlatti, Bach, & apply all knowledge gained, & from there you're on your own... the fun starts. You have enough ammunition to begin trying to figure out for yourself what makes their works great. One should also study invertible counterpoint, canon etc & realise how important the introduction of elements horizontally helps... the dynamics of Time. Also for example, I'm learning how to use the basic fact of prepared dissonances to give me confidence of what is truly happening on the upbeats & downbeats. My name is Sean & I'm from Ireland. Thanks for your video.
You are welcome!
@@LearnCompositionOnline Thanks for your gracious response Brother. But do you think I'm right or wrong on this? I'd really appreciate your opinion. I think the key to musical study for the sake of composition is being confident in distinguishing between the esssential, as Kitson rightly called it & the inessential. After this, all is good. Its just people like me, who weren't priveleged to have a musical upbringing, never had the chance for this. People born into music, often don't just get how blessed they were. Personally my natural background was highly musical but I was adopted so though in a truly loving family, I never got the piano lessons etc. Sometimes I think that if Mozart, Beethoven had been born into bog standard families they simply would have become delinquents because their creativity would have had no outlet. I think its an interesting point!
It is so: basically i give the advice that leads people to be a better film composer or better church musician and get employed as i do. I give my own proof of the theory. In this sense, more general bass with chorals als partimento, helps to get a faster result regarding solid craftsmanship. But the partimento stays important, today i opened a mass based on a partimento line: this was the quickest way to give the lamento tone for the Passion, and a quick way to sketch a improvisation of many notes on right hand
@@LearnCompositionOnline Thanks. Maybe we'll be in touch again. You're clearly a classy guy who cares enough to respond thoughtfully to strangers. God Bless & Best Wishes. Sean.
You took 7:57 minutes to say “First of all”.
Should i apologise to you?
I don't think drunk guys in videos should apologize, beber.
@@franciscoaragao5398 I am not drunk in this video. If I were drunk, why do you waste 7:57 minutes watching and more one commenting? Watching your channel i realised that you have a lot to teach…
What's the book you show with fugatos?
i have to check out again, i guess you speak about 46 Vorspiele by j.C. Bach, i gonna post in the community tab . But all my books are going into boxes right now...!
this book: pls follow www.patreon.com/posts/bachs-son-for-76513232?Link&.
Answering before some people ask again (idk why): It is about the difference between partimento and figured bass, especially choral, from the pedagogical point of view . The video is not about explaining the rule of octave. It is also in a big part for whom already knows about it.
I'm gonna risk to offer unrequested advice, but I've noticed that you're getting negative comments that aren't really constructive. It's true that, even if you warn that it is an improvised video, a scheme of what you want to convey can help following the information and avoid unnecessary repetitions. Also, the use of the word trap in the title feels like clickbait. What you want to warn is against it as the only tool in the composer's, but it looks like you dismiss the "American partimento school", and the polemizing tone doesn't fit so well the content.
Now for the actual content, I'd say that the question you pose is somehow sterile; as you mention, this practice is directed towards a craftsmanship that fell out of fashion in favour of other methods. It is sort of back to the roots movement, so it's not pursuing the XIX - XXth composers ideas. And there's nothing wrong with that, right?
Hope this helps you!
Hallo! Nice to meet you. Who are you? Professional musician? Harpsichordist?
No nothing wrong, since many ways leads to home. But for who wants to be a composer under my teaching framework , there is the problem i mention, principally regarding melodic, harmonization, and also motivation.
@@LearnCompositionOnline I'm studying harpsichord, and teach music for a living.
What I find very compelling of this approach is the importance given back to improvisation, as the practical knowledge that stands between composition and interpretation. Music as a language that once all composers were fluent in.
@@CTABPOGIN for musicians it is only good, better than reapeting concerts. The preludes non-mensures are excellent for interpretations. FLorian Birsak teached me then exactly for this.
great vid
Thx! Subscribe to be notified for more like this
Much of the time is wasted for saying unnecessary thing and the real point unfortunately is missed. Sorry
What is the real point? Can you say it? And what was unnecessary?
@@LearnCompositionOnline I consulted the site to understand the rule of 8ve, till he end, i didn' understand anything, that's why I said!
@@wibewin3835 the video is not about explaining the rule of octave. It is also in a big part for whom already knows about it. It is about the difference between partimento and figured bass, especially choral, from the pedagogical point of view