THE 90% RULE- How I look at Arrow & Broadhead Choice
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2023
- Throughout this video series on Truth About Arrows I have tried to give you logical things to consider when choosing your bow & arrow combination. In this segment I talk about the 90% RULE that I use mentally for considering Broadheads, Shot Angle and Arrow Choice. There will always be a debate about types of projectiles and the variations of options. I go with what has proven to work time and time again for me. This video gives you something to think about when making your choices. Everyone has a different viewpoint on many of these topics, I ask that you keep an open mind and think through these topics instead of just simply not knowing about the pros and cons. In the end a well placed arrow eliminates either side of the arguments about broad heads and my goal is for everyone to choose the option that lets them hit the middle- the soft spot! Don't neglect practice or whatever gear choice makes you shoot the best groups!
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I agree shot placement is the most important thing. I hunt whitetails mostly from a tree stand and i prefer a entry and exit hole. I easily blow through them with a 1.75" mechanical.
JD always makes me smile. This guy just shot sub 1MOA with a bow from 80 yards. I think he can use any broadhead he wants and find success 😅
JD is good enough with a bow and carries such weight as an influencer that he could provide a compelling argument as to why he would take an eye shot at 60 yards. But, he has the humility to recognize that for the majority of hunters, the convenience and increased accuracy they can get from a mechanical probably makes them a little more lethal if their setup is not optimally tuned. While I prefer fixed blade, I can understand why JD is putting this video out.
At 80 yards 1 moa is .8 inches. Still incredible shooting
Now, that is something for us all to really think about and ponder, great explanation brother on your point of view, I also always aim for the soft spot.
A 539 grain arrow is not what i see most mechanical shooters using. You snuck into heavy. I certainly wouldn’t compare most of the mechanical heads to a hatchet either unless your hatchet is made of cheap Chinese steel and folds up like a cheap lawn chair if it hits anything more dense than jello. You’re a great shooter John and avoiding bone should be everyone’s goal. Lots of us choose more substantial heads (or go back to them) after witnessing substantial expandable failures. If you’ve never had one fail and you have confidence by all means use what you think is best. But planning to execute a perfect shot every time with no margin for error or contingency plan is not on my list of ethics. Any broadhead or arrow combination does not excuse poor shot selection or passing a bad shot because it’s too risky. YMMV
A more applicable comparison would be getting stabbed with a regular knife or a putty knife. Sharpened up that putty knife and then ask the same question.
The mechanical broadhead is not capable of bashing your skull the same way an axe is. You don't pound tent pegs with the back of a mechanical broadhead.
Everybody has an opinion, staying with iron will 125. Mechanical have failed to many times. Pass through is a must for me, just saying.
This has been a great series John. The increased drop from the heavier arrow is expected and undeniable. What I would like to see, and what I think really matters, is what happens if you misjudge the yardage in a real world hunting scenario, how much additionally do you miss by with each heavier arrow? For example, shoot your 4 different arrow weights again with your sight set for 48 (correct tape for each arrow weight) but have the target at 52. If you hit 1” low with the 415gr arrow and 8” low with the 680gr arrow, that’s significant. If it’s 1” low with the 415gr arrow and 4” low with the 680gr arrow, the heavier arrow isn’t as disadvantageous as the total drop would indicate. Thoughts?
Interesting perspective. I was hunting elk last year and called in a massive big old bull. At 34 yards shooting a 80lb bow with a 31.5” draw he dropped and spun on the shot and put his shoulder in-between him and the arrow. If I was shooting a mechanical I would have lost a bull of a lifetime, my iron will penetrated through the should and into the lungs, he died within 300 yards. Mechanicals are great when they hit the right spot and function. I choose fixed because I want the extra 10% ha.
At 80lbs u should be able to put just about any broadhead through a shoulder lol.
31.5” draw is a cheat code!
@@kylen1922 Rage woulda melted and turned to mush.. Getting nowhere. Leave mechanicals for turkeys who are shooting turkeys
@@kylen1922 you would think! Not trying to cast shade on anyone using mechanicals or John. I just like the peace of mind for me personally.
No elk, but a handful of whitails over the years have taken a rocket miniblaster through BOTH shoulders from the ground and the arrow has gone 15-25 yards past the deer. My wimpy ass bow is only 74 lbs and 29.5" draw. Also, my arrows are exactly 5 gr/lb as this was my ibo 3d bow back in the stone ages. There are always anomalies, but I doubt a mech head would have had any trouble with one shoulder on an elk with that specific shot.
That group at 77 is unreal! Your school of knock playlist really helped me shoot more consistent groups, still have to work to do though
A surgical sharp cut on contact broadhead will cause more trauma than a giant cheap metal mechanical. A full pass through will cause the animal to die faster. We should be hunting to kill, not to wound. Yes the hatchet will do more blunt force damage but that’s not how arrows kill
Would you rather have a scalpel blade cut through your abdomen or a scottish claymore?
Unless shock trauma like a bullet delivers is being delivered through the body, all you're relying on is cutting and hemorrhaging. The hatchet cuts more tissue than the knife, the claymore cuts more tissue than a scalpel. A 1.5-2" quality mechanical like a sevr cuts more tissue than a 1" fixed blade. The best part is that you can get them as sharp as a fixed head, with better flight characteristics and a better wound channel. Unless you hit the offside shoulder on a quartering shot, or you take a frontal shot, the odds of a mech and a fixed head passing through aren't different enough to justify the smaller cut most of the time. If you can't get a mech sharp, or get it to pass through a deer, something's wrong.
@@papajohnsy6659 I’m not denying you can’t get a flapper as sharp as a cut on contact but you know damn well people aren’t doing that. I’m not even denying people get pass throughs when everything goes right. Even John said they only work 90% of the time, my argument is that you should plan for the 10% to make sure you’re a more ethical hunter
Yes you’re relying on hemorrhaging, which happens faster with sharper blades and a pass through. Are you saying you pass on quartering shots? The flight characteristics are minor and can be overcome. I can shoot my 150 grain Iron Wills out to at least 90 yards and they hit right with my field points. Chris Bee just tested a bunch of mechanicals and they were hitting over a foot off in all directions. You still have to do the same amount of tuning.
A better comparison would be the hatchet vs machete. Or the claymore vs katana. As you said, arrows don’t kill with shock trauma, there’s not enough positives to limit your shots with mechanicals. I’m not saying you shouldn’t use them, just know the limits
@papajohnsy6659 Thanks for your input. Your mechanicals will work until they don't. They take some shots and angles off the table. If your able to hunt multiple states and get lot's of opportunities I can see your point to a degree. But when you hunt your own state and have precious few days afield, you take what you get which is made more possible with a over the top setup. Not looking for marginal or maybe ot or I think so. That is most of the hunters out there.
So from the information given he is for a heavy arrow system he said he's shooting 500+ grains above 70# draw weight that is a heavy setup... id say that does aid in mechanical heads being a lil more effective
New to your channel, absolutely love the content and information!!! Thank you
ive smacked the elk humerus at 46 yards broadside and had no problem breaking it with a 650 grain and single bevel and 63 pounds and 30 inch draw. I prefer less trauma. The first arrow went all the way through on a quartering to and exited the rear ham. It didn't hit any bone and she just stood there. On the second shot, when i hit the bone the real trauma happened and she freaked out and sprinted down the hill and tripped over a brush pile then died shortly after. Had she not tripped, she may have been a half mile away. Less trauma in the head with a vital shot is way better than high trauma in the head and it runs frantically off until it falls over which could be quick or it could be a lot longer.
We tend to overthink things. One doesn’t need frankenpoundage. First deer I’ve taken was with a vintage 50# Martin Warthog Magnum, 467 gr. Camo Hunters 2117 with Satellite broadheads @ 10 yards. Complete pass through. Heck, a 40# recurve will kill deer all day long. Kinda like rifle hunting and arguing about what’s the best caliber. Just grab a 30-30 and go hunting. Know your gear and limits.
That Martin Warthog was actually.the compound bow that Ashby began the metal study with.
It's a myth he only used longbows. He used an 80s era compound as well, but for far fewer of the shots.
I've shot diagonally, quartering away, and gotten forty two inches of penetration on a cow elk and broken the off side humors on the way out. Using an Ashby formula arrow of course.
Oh yeah, and it was with a fifty eight pound recurve.
Whatever you use, you have to cut the good stuff. If you do not, no broadhead will get it done. The good stuff is forward on any animal on the planet.
Ashby all the way. When I switched to trad I couldn't believe the results from single bevel!! I tell all my compound friends to try them. I have shot through 2 deer in humorus, both died in sight. 45 pound long bow
Great vid, thanks Mr. Dudley!
Consider this massive detail .
You’re wrong about preferring the arrow to stay in the wound channel. paramedics, EMTs, and first responders are trained that any penetrating wound with a foreign object in it to leave the foreign object in and stabilize whatever is left outside of the wound, because massive hemorrhaging will happen when it is removed. when the object is in the wound channel it is slowing blood loss and preventing the massive drop in blood pressure.
As one of those people, I agree.
I can also say that EMS can bring me people with unilateral pneumothorax all day long, because they will survive. Same with abdominal stab wounds.
Stab wounds to the chest rarely make it to the hospital, on the other hand. Not if they got deep enough to hit that pulmonary trunk or aorta.
With the way an arrow and broadhead is shaped, a tiny carbon shaft isn't doing anything to stop blood from pouring out of a hole made from a 2" broadhead. This is the worst justification for fixed blades.
I second "caseyhille8293" comments below. 1MOA with a bow is OUTSTANDING! It's even hard to do with a rifle setup on a good day. Keep going John Dudley and thank you for putting together these video.
Amen Brother! Couldn’t agree more!
Like you said in one of your videos a while back, perfect practice makes perfect. A well placed shot is more important. Melissa Backman kills elk just fine! Good video!!🎯
Regardless of what side of the fence we’re all on we owe it to the game we hunt to be as accurate and as lethal as possible for a clean ethical kill. We must tune our bows, practice and take ethical shots for our set up. From personal experience I say shoot your broad heads to make sure they group with your field points, if not keep tuning and practicing until they do. When a bh company says they fly like your field points, they mean out of a tuned bow.
In many cases it’s a plain lie. The physics of a broadhead are not the same as a field point. The further the distance the more that factors in. Even a legit expansion that fully closed will still shoot low of a field point past 60 just from friction in flight alone
@@nockonarchery agree. Some are better than others. I shoot Swhackers and they have less profile than most and hit nearly identical to field points at 20 and 30yds. Because Swhackers are so forgiving, I broadhead tune with my worst flying fixed 4 blades first. The Sevrs have a low profile also.
Definitely got me thinking. Im a brand new hunter and have settled on a single bevel fixed blade. I pull 63# 28" draw with 420gr arrows. From the research I did using fixed blades lighter arrows seemed best. This has me thinking about that choice when I go to get new arrows. Thanks for the information in a common sense way.
Great groups! Thanks for the input JD but Give me pass thrus for my style of hunting all day so I can be home eating back straps with the family by night. . I mainly hunt from a tree saddle at elevation. I only shoot 60 lb from the saddle for ease of draw and execution while swinging from trees. For my style of hunting in my region, its cut on contact around 500 grains to get that paint roller blood trail coming from the exit wound on the lower quarter of the opposite side of the animal. With a COC, bring on the scapula on these smaller southern deer, not that I'm aiming for it but it does happen. I also encounter wild hogs in my neck of the woods occasionally. They give a hefty grunt and hit the thicket with mechs into their shield with extemely difficult vital area (golden triangle). In my experience, mechs make for long nights in the river botooms because these animals in high pressured MS don't hold still very long and perfect 12 rings don't always happen in my experiences. I need blood everywhere in the wet forest floor to make sure I get a quick recovery. Also, the animals react differently when a clean pass thru is achieved. Like Forrest said in the movie: it's like the animal thinks "something just jumped up and bit me"! 😂😂. I've witnessed them bound about 40 yd and just stand there literally dead on their feet until collapse. With mechs, they react like theyve been slapped on the rump with a hearty HA-YAH and they bolt off in a wild sprint. Our regions and hunting styles differ and we must figure out what works best for us as individuals and respect one anothers styles and choices.
According to John animals don’t have ribs? Ribs are bones too. Also what happens when the animals move and the scapula gets in front of the vitals? 2 holes bleed out faster than one, ask any combat medic and they’ll tell you.
I find myself in absolute agreement with most things from you Mr. Dudley. I am hunting Roosevelt elk in steep brushy terrain on the coast range. In a few spots we are likely to see an elk die within sight but most of the time they are going to disappear into reprod or thick brush. Following tracks can often be impossible. I believe exit holes for blood trailing are key to recovery. I will agree that expandable broad head you are using by all reviews is pretty impressive. Using your 90% analogy I am probably in that small group of 10% of all elk hunters. Thank you for all of your content.
Agree with everything you say here. Shot placement is everything and if you can’t hit your mark it doesn’t matter what you shoot. But I also know about Murphy’s law and anything that can happen will happen eventually. I also know an animal can react and change the shot placement. That’s why I like fixed heads. Shot mechanicals for a long time and had no problems with them. But I’ve had great success with single bevel fixed heads and have had the same success because of shot placement. And like I said to begin with that’s all that matters anyways
Great analogy. I’ve always had great success with expandable too. Keep the info coming!
JD you’re one of the best. I’m willing to say most couldn’t shoot that group at 77 yards. I wish everyone who picked up a bow including myself was as consistent as you are. I’m a 27 1/2/60 set up. I shoot fixed blade for when I don’t hit exactly where I want to. I figure on a marginal shot, 2 holes have to be better than one. My arrow is around 550 grains, which most consider to be on the heavy side.
That’s a great place to be at your DL
That makes a lot of sense. I'm a new bow hunter and before I go I want to make sure I can make the best shot as possible. I just subscribe to you and what I watch so far Im liking.
Something I would recommend is practice shooting after u get your blood pumping. Do some running and then shoot. It's a different ball game when u have animal infant of you.
@@kylen1922 thanks for the tip. I've been shooting a lot. I like the running idea..
I usually shoot mechanical heads but last year I tired fixed blade heads one thing i immediately noticed was even with good hits animals took longer to die im use to shooting them with whitetail specials and usually they dont leave my sight
I carry both with me in. I run the Valkyrie system and have fixed and mechanical broadheads that weigh the same. If there’s a situation that favors on vs the other I have the option to choose. Right tool for the right job
Well said. Moderate cut mechanical heads are my go to and have been for 25 years. On the 300 + blood trails I've been on they consistently produce the best results
Structural integrity thicker blades I would consider expandables shot placement is Also a big factor.
How do you feel about the sharpness of the mechanical broadhead blades? Do you sharpen them? I’ve noticed so many mechanicals the edges of the blades are absolutely terrible out of the box. Many different brands too. What’s your take on that?
You should just have ranch fairy on to discuss it would be an interesting convo
I really don’t think they’d argue about much. RF mainly preaches perfect arrow flight and structural integrity. When he brings up 650gr arrows, it’s based on a need, generally heavy bone like hogs and African game. On Ashbys penetration laws (listed in order of importance) it’s #12.
@@unsupportedultra I agree, this is why I am saying I think it would be an interesting convo. Their ven diagram overlaps nicely in the middle.
@@Adamjmckay There was an interview between RF and Aaron Snyder that went the same way. They really didn’t but heads much.
They did, Ranch Fairy agreed he was preaching heavy arrows and single bevels because of big hogs.
Thanks John but I beg to differ a little. Your one of the best there is and you get a lot of hunting opportunities. The average hunter has limited days in the field and limited opportunities. Can't sit and wait for a broadside shot. Frontal especially for a bull elk who will come in for a fight is not off the table as they ain't coming in sideways. A heavier setup with a sharp single bevel broadhead can and does go clean through. Two holes always better. Most expandable heads are not surgically sharp. Average guys who are the majority need to maximize our very limited opportunities. We just are not as good as you. You are one of a few guys of your caliber that is trying to help.Thank you.
I hear you, but bad shots equal poor recovery rates and sleepless nights. I wait for acceptable shots and get as close to 100% recovery as possible. Good luck
@@TheBladeSled Thanks brother. I don't think anyone in our community would disagree with that. We all want to make ethical and accurate shots. Ethical can change based on your skill level and your equipment. We can and should practice a lot, perfect practice but equipment can broaden your shot selections. Good hunting to you.
What is ethical with is a .22 is not the same as what is ethical with a .30-06.
Even with limited opportunities I would pass a bad shot on any trophy in fear of no recovery. Being in nature and the excitement of seeing animals up close is way more important than the harvest!
The average hunter should be able to practice enough where they know better than to aim at a shoulder blade. Plus you don't need to be a world class hunter to be accurate enough to kill a deer. If anyone can't designate the appropriate time to become efficient with a bow they shouldn't bow hunt
On fire this season.
I've been using a fixed muzzy Mx3 broadhead and have had success with the 1.25. it's a hair wide than traditional broadheads.
I'm not sure I understand. I have two blade fixed traditional broadheads that are one and a half inches wide.
Well, I picked the axe, lol. Even though more scary looking it wouldn't get to my internals. That said I shoot Sevr 1.5's mainly. I keep a fixed in my quiver for certain situations.
In my career, I have seen hundreds of gunshot wounds well over a 100 stabbings and lots of assaults.
I choose the axe in the second. Getting stabbed is fucking terrifying. I think I'd rather be shot with a handgun than stabbed.
Regardless it's a stupid comparison. A mechanical broadhead is not an axe. Try splitting wood with one.
A more applicable comparison would be getting stabbed with a putty knife or regular knife. What would you choose then?
Of course no one aims at bone, but everything we do aim at is very well surrounded & protected by bone. That's why we build heavy arrows. One of the most important factors in bowhunting penetration & lethality is structural integrity of the broadhead. There is absolutely no way that an expandable head is more durable than a fixed blade. The gap between ribs narrows with every quartering degree until, eventually, no gap exists at all & you're left shooting at a solid wall of bones at a diagonal angle. Are you going to take that shot with a head that has known and proven weak spots designed to fold those blades backwards? I think not. Which would you rather get stabbed with? A retractable razor knife, or a Bowie knife? And which do you think stands a better chance against bone?
So if a heavy/fixed blade combo is better for low poundage setups then that tells me in terms of efficiency it’s a better arrow, and thusly only gets more deadly when you add poundage to the equation, and by so doing those heavy bone areas don’t have to be avoided as much and that ups the options as far as shot angles you are able to take ethically. And by heavy I mean 450-550grains taw. Not talking 600-insanity!! 😂
You are right in this assessment. One thing I’ll add is that animals have a vote on shot placement because they move. The target he’s shooting at will be in the exact same position for one shot or a thousand shots. Live animals, not so much. In 33 years of bow hunting I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the times an animal hasn’t moved at the shot. That’s why I use what has proven to work in all situations, not just ideal scenarios.
Great video.
I’m 28” DL and 67 pounds DW shooting a 437 grain arrow with a 100 grain fixed broadhead and 75 grain insert/outsert leaving my bow at 285 fps. I’m thinking to probably increasing my arrow weight up to 500 grains but I’ll lose speed for sure. Recommendation? Thank you
Totally agree John!
Had one go in and crumble into the opposite shoulder. It continued to tear up the vitals, and the elk went 15 feet and layed down. Had to be a little careful when cleaning it. Carbon arrow peices and broadhead all over inside.
Good stuff!
If you take more than one animal per year I think it makes sense to go with a tough, heavy fixed blade that can be reused. I think we can agree most mechanicals are one and done, and going through more than one of the
Per year gets pricey.
When I accidental cut myself shaving the bleeding is hard to stop. So in essence that is what I want to hunt with a super sharp blade over a blunt blade.
If 90% of our roads are paved, we should never need a 4wd truck
Dudley is an awesome archer, but it’s so obvious he’s all about his sponsors and promoting the products that pay him the most.
That's the feeling I can't shake. He hates the iconoclastic nature of this revolution.
That knife would go all the way through you not just in then back out its kind of a misleading question. With a heavy arrow backing it would also be like an axe with a very sharp head
Not to mention the forces involved. The momentum behind an axe swing is outrageous. An ax head dropped on you from 3 feet high or swung by a toddler probably has comparable momentum and kinetic energy to an arrow shot.
When people start splitting wood with an arrow, I'll buy into the comparison.
I like the rebuttals to a lot of the extreme FOC talk. It's easy to travel down the rabbit hole with 600+ grains. Your arguments come off as the voice of reason. Most importantly I like that the entire conversation has expanded to most folks understanding that a hunting arrow should be at least 450 something grains for most shooters, and not getting confused with 'heavy' arrow speak for not shooting 'out of the box' arrows.
I think that 450-520 is that whitetail sweet spot.
@@unsupportedultra I agree, for ball parking each persons setup its a good spot for whitetail and should be encouraged.
Funny. I weighed my hunting arrows which were complete pass throughs on the last three deer I shot…400.8 grains. I guess that didn’t actually happen? The point is whitetail are not thick-skinned, heavy-boned animals. If you shoot a decent broadhead, and put it somewhere in the breadbasket, you’ll have a dead deer, provided you tube your bow. An arrow that is flying in a perfectly straight line (tuned) will punch thru. That same arrow out of tune won’t. JD’s whole point of the 90% is that if you place your shot in the correct position, the mechanical will produce more trauma than a fixed. That’s indisputable. That being said, I shoot QAD Exodus BH’s and love them.
@@AK3lms 450 is just a ballpark. Draw weight, arrow length is going to change that. My point is adding some weight is normal. How much depends on the situation but it doesn’t have to be extreme to find success. People put themselves in these light or heavy “camps” but very few are shooting stock arrows with 100gr tips
Thank you again.
What’s wrong with quartering to? From what I understand Elk often come in frontal or quartering to. Seems in that situation cut on contact would be ideal and makes you capable of taking that shot rather than having to wait for broadside.
A full frontal is different for me than a quarter too. The frontal offers a much larger kill zone on entrance. The quarter too is a tough on for me. The choice is either a super tight space between the front arm or super tight to the front shoulder and you know you’re going to have a single lung liver
More trauma, less drama. These videos are freakin' great!!!
A wide broadhead produces a wide wound at close range up to 40m and what will happen at 70m? Will this wound be deep enough? The maximum penetration is narrow 2-bladed broadheads that penetrate from 10m through a 40mm wooden board, I checked.Maybe it's better to use such broadheads at 70m?
I personally use a really light arrow 390 grains and I have shoot 2 inch mechanical heads to 1 1/8 inch fixed and obviously the 1 1/8 fixed penetrated more but it wasn’t as impressive as I thought it was going to be.. Most of the 2 inch mechanical head kills I made the fletching would bury on hit side and as the deer ran away the arrow would pull through the exit hole. on 1 1/8 inch fixed the arrow retained enough energy that the arrow would pass completely through and be laying on the ground just on other side of the deer.. The fixed head only gave me the advantage of being able to get the super stiff fletching to pass through the animals.. When you get to a 1 3/8 inch cut special things happen with blood trails on average and when you get to that size fix head with a 90 percent letoff bow it isn’t forgiving with form flaws.. 1.5 inch cut mechanical heads is what I have found to be a sweet spot for my setup.. I would never use a arrow this light for elk most my shots on deer are under 40 yards. I have used same bow same arrow just different heads for the last 10 years and usually give a head 10 kills and switch to different style and different cut size I also process my own deer and really look to see what the arrow hit and see what arrow did on impact. It would amaze some people on how any style of head how much a arrow can deflect on ribs of just muscle tissue for that matter.
A 1 1/8" fixed blade like a Slick Trick Magnum has a total cut of 2.25 " (1 1/8 + 1 1/8), which is more than a 2" mechanical. A Slick Slick Standard would have a total cut of 2", which is more than your 1.5" mechanical. If flight is the same, I will take a fixed blade over a mechanical any day. No rubber bands or screws on my broadheads for me.
You can argue all you want I tested a magnus 4 blade stinger and a sik 4 blade fixed heads the stinger had bigger bleeders then the sik but the sik has a 1 3/8inch main blade vs 1 1/16 inch on stinger and on average the sik had better blood trails. But with a 1 3/8 inch fixed head it was much less tolerant to form flaws in awkward hunting situations.. Sure make the argument even when you introduce torque with a field tip it affects the shot. I would say to that you are probably talking couple inches at most at 30 yards but that big fix head could go 6 inch off target compared to mechanical and you have a much better chance of the arrow recovering with a mechanical vs fixed head where it’s still wobbling at impact with a animal..???? Isn’t a fully stable arrow hitting game even more important in the Ashby reports then foc???
@@allenr6687 I am not arguing with anyone, & I could care less what others chose to use. Sounds like you test whatever you use & that is what matters most. If you have faith in mechanicals, that is what you should use. Some of what you shared in the end is purely speculation. A fixed blade head that passes through the boiler room is much easier to find than broadhead that may not pass through & be carried off. My main point is that a small broadhead like the Slick Trick Standards (1" blades) has the same total cut as a 2" mechanical, because 1" + 1" = 2" (basic math). Good luck this season!
Very tru what what he is saying ..
Yep, this is a GREAT common sense explanation to the heavy arrow/fixed head fad that’s getting popular. No arrow, nor even most hunting bullets fare well hitting those huge shoulder/leg bones at extreme angles. To each their own, shoot what you want, but hit em in the vitals. Accuracy wins every time.
That's a cool hatchet.
My arrow weight is 645gs. Bow is 20 years old. 200g Cutthroat broadhead. Causes no trauma. Deer dies in 10 seconds. Shoot what you like party animals. Hunting is beautiful.
I am shooting a Easton axis 5mm 400g with a wrap and lighted nock with a 100gr broad head any idea what my arrow weights ????
Several observations: Not many commenting on the 510 grain arrow with weight up front....that's getting into RF territory and he even has a 500 grain arrow build video. Another one is the knife/hatchet comparison to BHs. That hatchet will break bones much easier than the knife so I'm not sure how that compares to a mechanical. Another observation is since when does the archery hunting world not stress the need for maximum penetration and pass throughs??? That's a head scratcher. Also, if everyone, no matter their choice of bows, arrows or BHs, or their draw length or arrow speeds hit a broadside animal in that black square, we wouldn't be having this debate. And, no one ever mentions a well tuned bow. How many commenting on here know how to tune their own bow? it's very easy (for the most part), but most give you the "deer in the headlights" look when you ask them.
"I'm shooting a 539 grain arrow out of a 74# bow..." PLUS you know his draw length is 32" or something. Other than the mechanical, that is very similar to RF setup and THEN SOME due to his draw length and pull weight... Its disappointing that he is not listening to the common ground points. NO ONE wants to hit bone, but that's close to where the great vessels are. If you do aim closer to guts instead of the V, I agree, you want a HUGE expandable over a single bevel. BUT id rather aim closer to the bone and then have the KE behind it with a single bevel to get it through.
That's my whole problem with the video. The sheer force involved in an ax being swung at you creates an entirely different scenario.
The correct comparison would be, would you rather be stabbed with a butcher knife or a putty knife.
Only an idiot would choose a butcher knife if the comparison were apt. But even so, after twenty years of taking x rays and cat scans on trauma victims, I'd still rather be hit with an axe. Knife attacks are freaking terrifying.
Okay so I shoot a EVL 32 60 lb.max Draw 28 inch draw length. What weight of arrow would you suggest that would have that mix of speed and enough weight to push a mechanical through a whitetail chest cavity
i shoot #60 27.5 DL 440gr total weight. No issue with pass throughs using 2” Rage, Swhacker or Sevr. I would not go below 420 grains. I’m happy between 430 and 470 gr total weight.
@@TheBladeSled thank you.
Remind me again how a rear stabilizer will affect my shooting
Your the man dud!!! ❤
Awesome video, but what about mechanical failures?? Definitely happens.
Certain ones and certain design yes. I stick with trypans, dead meats or sevr
Same kind of debate in rifle hunting, guys want bullet to blow through the animal but some say they want the bullet to stop before leaving the animal, so expend it's energy inside the animal. I think a broadhead inside and animal that is thrashing or running to get away will cut things up a lot more and create un-healable damage. A pass through in the lungs and they are down soon, as well as the heart. I've not had good blood trails with Vipertricks, better with a magnus stinger. Pass through with both, and broke a rib on each side with the ViperT, @55yds, never found the arrow. And they are just 420g arrows.
But, broadhead and bullets do not kill the same way. They just don't. There is very little hydrodynamic shock from an arrow. What you cut is what you get.
A .30-06 bullet will only go a couple of feet in water, But a bow fishing arrow will go twenty.
I agree with your thinking on this. Don't base your whole setup on the small chance of what if's. I have used both fixed and mechanicals and would say that both have their place. I can see why the guys from hunting public choose the heavy arrows and single bevel heads they shoot because of the type of hunting they are doing. Sneaking up and stalking deer on the ground and getting all kinds of interesting shots. I either hunt from a tree stand or a blind and am careful about my shot placement. I can say I absolutely love the blood trails from a good mechanical compared to a small fixed blade. I am partially color blind and the difference in the amount of blood helps me a ton in tracking an animal. Two holes are very good to have for sure but they aren't always the best. I shot a buck with a small fixed blade on a broad side shot and hit in what I thought was a great spot. I watched the deer slowy walk out of sight and waited a couple hours and started tracking. Had very little blood and trailing was hard. Lost the blood trail in a field of tall grass and ended up jumping the buck still alive 3 hours after the shot. Had to back out and come back the next morning to recover. I'm positive if I had been shooting the 2.5" swhackers that I'm shooting now most of the time that the buck would have probably dropped in site and saved a lot of heartache. But honestly everything all depends on your equipement and your personal ability and what you are capable of. Know your limitations and base your shots on that. If you hear that little voice in your head saying I don't think I can make that shot...then don't.
I've seen the same stories with big mechanicals,
Blood trails are not predictable. Marketing hype.
@@davidholliday2703 You're right they aren't predictable. But the bigger the cut you are putting through an animal the chances of a better blood trail go way up. That's just science. I'm also going off of personal experience. I'm not knocking fixed blades by any means. I still have them and use them.
Blood trails are not predictable. Individual experience is anecdotal. See the damage caused by the rotational effect of a good single bevel. The failure rate of mechanicals and the shot angles they eliminate is to thin for me. Keep hunting brother and I wish much success regardless of what you shoot.
@@davidholliday2703 Yep same to you. I also agree with the shot angles and only take shots that I'm confident in.
My apologies dud! I wondered about such a disturbing question 🤦🏽 and didn’t have the foresight to see where you were going with it when asking which I’d rather be hit with. Great explanation! Thanks!
So John, what's your cut off for using an expandable? I'm a 27.5" draw, 72#, 435-455 grain arrow.
I have no issue with double lung pass throughs shooting #60 27.5 DL 440 total arrow weight and 2” expandable like Rage, Sevr, Shwacker. I prefer Swhacker, partly because no wasted energy on the entrance. So they seem like a great choice if unsure you have enough power for 2” cut mechanicals. They make 1.75” cut version too, but I stick the 2” cut in the dirt so no need to reduce cutting diameter. Only time not a pass through would be a horrible shot into heavy bone. And if it’s quartering away you can bury them in opposite shoulder but it’s already passed through the vitals. Short blood trail. Try them!
26" draw length, 70# draw weight. Dud, you shooting a mechanical at elk? If so, what arrow weight and to what distance?
You are on the borderline. Stick with a smaller expanding head and 30 yds or less
Let's be real honest here & use real common sense - A Slick Trick Magnum will have a total cut of 2.25" (1 1/8" + 1 1/8"), which is more than a 2" mechanical. The smaller ST Standards have a 2" total cut, which is identical to a 2" mechanical broadhead. I am just using ST as a reference (not endorsing them). You can have your hatchet blade with it's rubber bands, tiny screws, and flimsy blades. If they fly the same, I will pick a fixed blade over a mechanical broadhead every day. If someone wants to shoot 70 pounds or more and throw a hatchet through a deer or elk, that's perfectly fine. If it's an elk, however, I will take the broadhead that penetrates better. A 2" mechanical looks impressive, but that's deceptive. A 1" fixed 4--blade has the same total cut. A broadhead like a Swhacker may have 1" blades in fllight that flip out 2" blades. A ST Standard with 1" blades will also give you 2" of total cut. A 3" Swhacker or other larger cuts are surely more, but you better have the horsepower to push that through!
You've also elected to ignore difference between cut size and cut width. A 2" mechanical is cutting a much wider area than a 1x1 fixed head. The wider the cut of the broadhead the wider and larger the entrance and exit holes. This is because hide and tissue separates when cut, like a bunch of rubber bands. As you cut a wider and wider hole, it also gets wider along the opposite axis. That hole is harder to cover and generally allows more blood letting all else equal. That's why deer shot with a 2" mechanical can look like they've had a fire axe to the ribcage.
@@papajohnsy6659 You are ignoring an entire dimension, & that is not OK. You should be comparing a 2" cut that is one dimensional to a 2" total cut that is two-dimensional going through a three-dimensional body cavity. If you want to ignore an entire dimension of a 4-blade broadhead, that is YOUR choice. Just don't ask me to do that! The math is quite simple! If someone likes mechanical broadheads, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't like rubber bands, tiny screws, and flimsy blades on my broadheads. If you can blow 2" mechanicals through a deer, you have nothing to worry about! Just because you love a one-dimensional cut doesn't mean a 4-blade fix guy can't point out his broadhead may have the same or even more of a cut going through the broiler room. Yes, the cuts may look different, but I am not convinced they are always more deadly (especially if you factor in penetration issues with mechanicals for some folks).
John, what mechanical do you use?
I like seeing the target elk antlers hanging from the tree in the BG
All this info is great! The only problem i have is that its all based on a 30"to 31" draw. Me being a 27" draw i feel cant follow the same logic as you. To shoot a big mechanical like that with your arrow weight im at a massive disadvantage, like a 40fps disadvantage which now lowers the momentum as well making it harder to push that big mechanical through the hide and ribs
My wife is 26/40 for specs. She just shoots only inside 30yds
I'm 26.5 draw with 450 grain arrows and I have had zero issue with expandables in regards to penetrations. You just gotta find your happy medium.
@@kanyewest1365what draw weight?
@@brentbusick2245 70 lbs
@@kanyewest1365 well then you wouldn’t have an issue with an expandable 🤦🏻😂
John... I wish you would address your bow peers. When I first started archery hunting (late in life) several factions sent me down a lot of bad paths. I spent a lot of wasted money and almost gave up several times.
I even remember making the same argument you now make in both archery talk and suckslide. Man the absolute disgusting commentary I got...
What you say makes sense and my gun world experiences affirm. However every one in the archery world wants to make bow hunting some God like skill.
Thank you
What if I am shooting 50# @ 28" with a 430 gr. arrow with about 61# of k.e.? Can I still use a mechanical for whitetails?
If it’s close yes. Otherwise a fixed blade is a good option
With your setup I would try a 1.75” cut Swhacker first. Swhacker uses less energy for entry than other mechanicals. I shoot 2” Swhacker at #60 27.5 dl 440gr total weight and bury them 4 to 6” in ground after double lung on Midwest whitetails. I sharpen them razor sharp first.
I had a big deer take a step on release resulting in a gut shoot, fortunately the broadhead was a Rocket Buck blaster hybrid with 1 in. Fixed and 3 2.75in mechanical blades . The deer went 30 yards and fell over in site. Big holes matter especially when things go wrong!
Just getting into archery hunting and my son and I share the bow so it's set up at 52 lbs. We will be hunting whitetail. Would a fixed broadhead be better at that poundage vs mechanical? I was thinking fixed was the way to go, but after watching this video I'm not sure.
To many factors bow ibo speed your draw length ect a 370 ibo bow @50lbs 29inches has more energy than a 315 ibo @ 70lbs
We have killed a couple truck loads of white tail and pigs with 45- 50# bows and rage ss heads. They don't make them anymore but the sever 1.5 should serve you well
@@user-hc4jn8sd2u interesting. Honestly didn't know that so thank you for the info. Is there a calculator or something where you can plug in IBO, draw length, etc to get an idea on energy output?
@@challin01 yes, you'll have to look up an arrow speed calculator, plug your values in, then take that speed and put it into an energy calculator with your arrow weight. A couple of quick google searches should set you up for that.
FIXED!
I like single bevel fixed blades with bleeders. I like having tool steel and I just can’t get past using a head that is for the most part one and done, which almost all mechanicals are. Not that I need to use it twice, but the fact that obviously it has less of a chance to keep its integrity inside the animal.
So what are some of the expandable broad heads you recommend
He said he shoots Dead Meat, Sevr, or Trypan.
Choosing between fixed blade and mechanical broadheads depends on the hunter's preference, the type of game being pursued, bow type, and shooting conditions. Both can be highly effective when used properly. It's advisable to experiment with both, understand their characteristics, and choose what aligns with your hunting style and the game you're after. Always ensure that your broadheads are sharp and well-maintained to guarantee optimal performance. Thanks for the video!
Sharp is important. Most mechanical blades and some fixed blades are not shaving sharp out of box. So I sharpen them razor sharp no matter is new or used.
That white looks sic!!! Why dont they offer that version!
People don't want to hit bone, they just want to be prepared incase they do, everyone wants to hit the soft spots and the comparing a tomyhawk and knife to fixed blade and mechanical broad heads is just silly.
Yep. Imo)))---> single bevel
Dudley's broadhead choice works well for him. Unless the animal reacts to the shot, he is going to hit it exactly where he is aiming. The common archer has a fraction of Dudley's shooting skill - most are trigger punchers and if their arrow hits where they are aiming - it is luck. What is Dudley's broadhead recommendation for them?
Practice more to improve your form and shot process. Too many people only shoot a few times a year and don't focus on becoming a better archer then they blame the equipment when they take a bad shot.
@@scottblack8786 I have seen fairly popular TH-cam hunting channels, where most of the shooters hold their finger away from the trigger while aiming, before slapping the trigger when their sights align with the target. Every errant shot they make is a product of this mistake. But my question still remains - what broadhead should an archer of this nature use?
I think we all agree Shop placement is number one. that being said these are live targets and they move constantly if you tell me you put that arrow 100% in a spot you’re aiming every time either you’re a liar or you haven’t shot enough animals. When things go right awesome the deer is dead anyway when things go wrong I want something on the end of my arrow that can take it and keep going!
Preach on Brother Dud! I’m 31.5” and shooting 63 lbs. I’m trying to run a combination of the biggest cut mechanicals thru every whitetail I get a chance at in two states this year. I’m over this high arrow weight, must shoot fixed line being forced at us everywhere you watch/read.
You’re thinking about the trama/cut wrong. The cut length is what’s important. An extremely sharp fixed blade will provide a far superior cut for a longer distance through the animal. There’s a give and take with both options. I’ve shot both and have experienced failures with mechanical broadheads. So far zero failures with fixed blades and deer dead within 40 to 50 yards. I base my decisions on my failures not my successes.
I agree w you. Penetration and structural integrity of the head is usually better w fixed.
I get to track a lot of animals each year. Probably 4X the average hunter. Many of which aren’t mine which is good for experience. Many friends shoot different heads ect. I have experienced less overall blood on fixed head tracking. Even when there is 2 entrance and exit holes.
@@nockonarcheryI agree. I’m an outfitter in northern Alberta and between deer, elk, moose and bears every year I track 20-30 animals. Small, coc heads overall produce less blood. A mechanical by and far has created better blood trails but we have to consider shot placement with all heads. I tracked a single lung shot bear in May for over 6 kms (3 ish miles?) with a 1” fixed head, 2 holes. Small droplets of blood that were on average 20-30 yards apart. We never found the bear as the blood stopped and he never laid down once. A single lung bear with a grim reaper mechanical bled a significant amount more and laid down inside of 500 yds. Arrow stayed in. Food for thought. Both were quartering too slightly, inexperienced archery hunters taking what might look like a broadside shot but as we know with big bears it can be sometimes hard to determine angle, especially in low light situations.
@@nockonarcheryto add to that. I guided a hunter last year that took a frontal shot on a bull moose at 15 yards with a 2” mechanical. He made a good shot and the bull died inside 20 yards, blood pouring out like dumping a 5 gallon pail. Mechanicals certainly have their place and most certainly cause massive trauma when placed correctly.
I like your style, accurate broadhead and a big cut, forget the "what if" arrow
Don't make a bad shot.
Looking forward to more videos..
Meanwhile waddels bouncing expandables off a rib bone on whitetails
Pass through with heavy arrows and a fixed blade broad head is superior to any mechanical. If 90 % of that Elk is not fatal, why shoot at an arrow and mechanical with limited penetration?
I will say i haven't had any failures on mechanicals that I am aware of. But i have had a deer move and hit bone and lose it, it sucks. I dont feel like i can blame that on a mechanical though. And really, it is probably experience that i need more of. But i switched to high quality single bevel for that reason as i prefer a pass through.
Let me start out by saying this. Dudley is a much better shooter and hunter than I am, and he’s shot and killed countless more elk than I have. But this is not the first video I’ve seen with an expert talking about lung shots saying that the lungs “deflate”. Lungs do not “deflate” they aren’t like balloons filled with air. They are more similar to a sponge filled with liquid. And when they get punctured the air outside the lung presses into the sponge causing it to compress. It doesn’t actually collapse, it compresses, and the technical term for it is a pneumothorax. Most trauma to a lung is not going to make it completely useless. The effectiveness of a lung shot is from the loss of blood. If you’ve ever had a pneumothorax you have a good understanding of what it feels like and how it affects you physically.
The old ax verses knife comparison sounds good in theory but doesn't take into consideration a number of factors. I think most hunters would agree that a smaller two hole pass through is as good as, and often times, superior to a single hole with a large cut diameter. Think about one lung shots. One lung shots are one of the worst kinds of shots you can have on a deer. They go a long long way when trying to track them and the longer the distance you have to track the more the odds go up that you will not find that animal. Not to mention when hunting whitetail from an elevated treestand... What good is a huge cutting diameter on the entry hole if you get no pass though from some of the steeper angles you end up shooting at? I've seen and heard too many times a hunter could not find the deer because he could not find any blood due to the blood pooling up inside the deer because he didn't get a pass through. Look at a lot of these hunting videos and you'll see very poor penetration and th only reason they found the deer is they hit the heart and it dind't go very far. How many ohter videos do they not show becasue they couldn't find the deer.
I shoot 470 grain gold tip airstrikes. Topped with 50 grain titanium half out and 15 grain collar with severs on the front. I called them flying ashtrays nothing survives clean quick kills well maybe not so clean a lot of carnage.
So what’s your broadhead of choice? I shoot Rage trypans
I shoot trypans, sevr, dead meat and have tried others. I’m not devoted to one mechanical
A better example would be a hatchet vs a spear. I bet the answers would change.
Yup
Hatchet vs being run through with a sword..
Last season I hit ribs with a 2” rage on both full pass threw 2” hole on both sides, my arrow ended up buried in the cedar post! 450grain
If you hit a deer in the vitals you’re going to hit a rib, it’s nothing to brag about
@@bigz5262 not “bragging” just saying my 450grain arrow had no problem breaking 2 bones and passing threw with a mechanical
@@Texaslivinoutdoors ribs aren’t a concern, they’re softer bones
@@bigz5262 👍
A small head like a Slick Trick Standard (1" fix blade) has the same 2" total cut (1" + 1" ) as your 2" Rage. A Slick Trick Magnum has more (2.25" total cut). No rubber bands, screws or flimsy blades for me unless accuracy was an issue. If they fly the same, I will take the fixed blade every time!
I really think that if someone is THAT worried about “missing” the kill spot, then why the hell are they even shooting a bow?? if your not confident enough to hit a basketball at 30 yards with an arrow then put down the bow and grab a gun… I personally will not think any less of you for gun hunting..
34 years of bow hunting I have never hit forward and I haven’t tracked a deer more than 100yard with a rage or a sevr we owe it to the animal to take an ethical shot even if it’s an animal of a life time
Amen sir dud!!!!!!! Accuracy is key and big cuts crucial.
Do you also believe in the theory that a lighter Arrow also translate into a louder shooting bow and a heavier Arrow translates into a quieter shooting bow... that being said do you think the animal will move more if they hear more sound or less sound because everybody knows more sound can be heard from a longer distance than less sound...
Listen to my last podcast. I talk about this later in the podcast. Both could be argued for sure. Heavy arrows do equal quieter bow. Although many bow today are quiet
Not to be johnny raincloud over here, and i want to make it clear that john Dudley is a phenomenal archer and bow hunter and i have tons of respect for his work, but the analogy with the knife and hatchet is very poor. Comparing them to broadheads. A hatchet is swung with a great deal more force and with a different motion than a knife is used to stab. If you want to make the comparison it would be more accurate to ask whether you would want to be stabbed with a knife, or be stabbed (in the same physical motion with same amount of force) with a hatchet. In that scenario i and most people would pick being stabbed by a hatchet over a knife because it wouldn't penetrate like a knife would. Arrows fly the same and hit with the same motion and ener whether its a mechanical or fixed head (assuming they are the same weight and on the same arrow)
Case in point. I shoot a Rage Hypodermic. Last year I had a pass through on a turkey I found him but this year I used a Rage Extreme Turkey Broadhead. Turkey died in site. The Pope and Young bear I killed last year I hit the off side shoulder. The bear died in 10 seconds. Arrow in him. The mule deer I killed last year died within a 100 yards. Good blood arrow in him. Thanks for the information. Keep it coming 🤘