I love orientalist operas so much. Offenbach's Ba-Ta-Clan, Auber's Le Cheval de Bronze, Adam's Si j'etais roi, Gretry's Le caravane du Caire and Zemire et Azor (both fabulous), The Geisha by Sidney Jones (highly inappropriate lyrics). L'Orocolo is just teriffic and packs a lot of action into a single act. I'm glad you included it.
In the early 1900s, a Bavarian composer - fed up with the mannerist and ornamental way of depicting Eastern cultures in music - intended to write the ultimate Orientalist opera ... Salome.
When I saw the title my mind immediately went to my own favorite example, Rimsky’s Golden Cockerel so I was thrilled you included it with such enthusiasm.
Another fantastic list! I'm sure Edward Said would approve. 😁 Found the Leoni opera on Presto Music, going to stream it today. Never even heard of it. Thank you!
Amazing video Dave! As always! Maybe this could become a series? I would suggest/request a video on operas in the spanish theme which are not zarzuelas, to see how other composers view spain, I think that could be fun!
Interestingly, two operas I would have awaited from you, didn't come: "Djamileh" and "Padmavati". There's also a french opera in chausson-ravelian mode, "Marouf", which I like very much; and not to forget one of the few german operas without heaviness, Cornelius' "Der Dieb von Bagdad". But I hope you'll proceed with that wonderful cultural appropriations, which give us so much pleasure.
I've known the Cornelius as Barber of Baghdad. I've always thought that the title character, Abu Hassan Ali Ebn Bekkar, a bass who is endlessly garroulous, conceited, full of himself and will never shut up, was modeled on Wagner whom Cornelius knew. I believe that bit of mockery alienated Cornelius from the Wagner circle.
Thanks for this great list! Love it! As with music, Orientalism in art history is an important historical phenomenon. Orientalism is the term that is used for art, as well. "Orientalism" isn't necessarily understood to be a problematic word. There are many major painters who did Orientalist subjects - Ingres, Delacroix, Whistler, Monet, Renoir, Matisse - to name a few. Yes, many writers and academics sanctimoniously drone on about the political aspects believing (falsely, I believe) that increasing awareness and knowledge will address the political problem. By the way, there's also the matter of self-orientalism - I think an example might be the promotions I've seen for the big Shen Yun show (I've not seen the show itself). I have an ethnomusicologist friend who considers much of Tan Dun's music to be self-orientalizing.
As unique and insightful an opinion on Puccini's dilemma (over the final plot resolution of Turandot) as I've ever heard: "...a living, breathing, pulsating, heaving woman....nahhh...have you ever SEEN Turandot? You think THAT"S going to happen?" (LOL)
Turandot and Calaf deserve each other. My own pet ending is Timur comes back in at the end and says it turns out that Liu is only wounded and is going to be OK.
I don't know if you could consider Britten's Curlew River an opera but somehow I feel it should be in some list of yours, strangest orientalist works or something. It was modeled on the mystery play, which is some sort of proto-opera (but what would those medieval player think if they suddenly got plopped into a performance of The Mikado?).
There's a brief moment near the end of Savitri when her "dead" husband awakens (he says: "Savitri..is it thou?") that is simply indescribable in its beauty, so I'll stop trying (it involves the entrance of the off-stage women's chorus that Holst so ingeniously integrated into this score). But get the Janet Baker version, conducted by Holst's daughter Imogen (I can't vouch for any other performance). Thanks for your opening addressing of the "appropriation/Orientalism" issue. Puccini's "Butterfly" is indeed very respectful of the material, despite the libretto's occasional elements of caricature, a product of the times. But Cio-Cio San is one of the truly great, noble characters in all of opera (and let's not forget the wise and caring Sharpless, who does his best to prevent the tragedy). I only wish that your logical, open-minded view about the Orientalism issue will be adopted by the opera profession worldwide, which seems to be caught between the artistic/financial need to present these great works and their cultural/political concerns which are, alas, a very real thing, thanks to academia and "progress." LR
Salieri's "Tarare" is another fine opera with orientalist themes. Dare I say I like it more than "Abduction"? Rameau's fairy tale "Zaïs" is another favorite for me.
I have a question unrelated to this particular video, if you'll forgive me: I found in an old musical autograph collection a note signed by a composer named Edward German, described by the encyclopedia as "the successor of Arthur Sullivan." Apparently, when not composing light, comic opera, he tried his hand at conducting and symphonic writing. My question for you, given your ponderous knowledge of classical music and opera is this: Is German a composer of any historical note or merit? Did he write anything important or worth hearing? Thanks in advance!
May I answer with a yes? Merrie England is a superb operetta, libretto Basil Hood. It would likely have been set by Sullivan if he had lived. German's completion of Sullivan's The Emerald Isle is very fine. His Tom Jones has been recorded, he did some memorable incidental music and dances for Nell Gwynn. Hus 2nd symphony "Norwich" is not a great work but it's a very good one and has been recorded on Dutton Epoch with other music of his. German himself recorded it acoustically! By the way, he insisted his name was pronounced with a hard G. Especially so during WW1!
Since we're counting The Abduction from the Seraglio for this category I'd add Rossini's Italian Girl in Algiers (which I love) and The Turk in Italy. The second act of The Egyptian Helen is more than a little orientalist. And any opera with Crusaders in it probably has a few "Saracens", as Argante is called in Rinaldo.
Charles Loeffler was supposed to write an opera from Okakura's play, 'The White Fox'. He never got around to it due to miscommunication over rights to modify the text. It's a shame, would have sure been a delightful work considering Loeffler's technique
I remember watching a PBS program on Chinese-American actress Anna May Wong that included a modern artist, Doan Ly, reproducing Wong's stage act. She sang a song called "Sweet Jasmine" which I immediately recognized as one of the themes from Puccini's "Turandot." Obviously it was a traditional Chinese melody Puccini borrowed for his opera. I also liked your comments about Mascagni's "Iris," though rather than calling it "'Butterfly' on steroids" I'd say, "It's 'Rigoletto' moved to Japan." I have the Bonynge/Sutherland recording of Leoni's "L'Oracolo" somewhere in my CD collection and should dig it out sometime.
You must be familiar with Groucho Marx and Helen Traubel doing that duet from "The Mikado" ("...And I think I am sufficiently decayed..."). It's from a TV "Mikado". Groucho loved G&S, and he must have had the time of his life doing this.
Other emblematic examples are Giulio Cesare by Handel and Les Indes Galantes by Rameau. Another funny example : Handel wrote an opera named Fernando which took place in Spain ; then, apparently for political reasons, he re-named it Sosarme and it took then place in the Middle East. Which proves that the music had no connection whatsoever with the location !
Just for the record, and I could be wrong, but I don’t get from Said’s writing that making orientalism a dirty word is any part of what he’s trying to do. It seems to me his project is about power relationships and how those show up in and are reinforced by ideas about non-Europeans rather than nomenclature. But more importantly, I love your videos and your writing.
That's my understanding of Said's book. I believe that he also loved French Orientalist literature, at least that's one of the things I got from reading his book so long ago.
Dear Dave, you should have saved your Thai Crisp illustration for this video, because that's what you gave us: something operatic, Oriental, and scrumptious. Thank you. Wesley
I don't accept Said's whining either. I once heard a performance of Savitri played outdoors and, despite threatening inclement weather, it was sheer magic. I'd add Bizet's Djamileh, Pearl Fishers, and Meyerbeer's L'Africaine/Vasco da,Gama. Auber's Le Cheval de Bronze is Chinese but has no musical local color whatsoever, so the delightful overture will do. Another hilarious treat, dramatically and musically, is Offenbach's Ba-ta-Clan. Sullivan's The Rose of Persia deserves more exposure as well. I'd nominate Massenet as music's greatest master of local color or couleur locale as the French say.
As you say, when other cultural influences are found in Western culture it's Western cultural appropriation. The opposite, when other cultures are influenced by Western culture, is Western cultural imperialism. Any cultural exchange involving us Westeners is inherently bad, apparently. It's all nonsense mainly peddled by self-loathing Western academics of course - borrowing interesting stuff from other tribes is surely a phenomenon as old as our species. I wouldn't be surprised if our Homo Sapiens ancestors borrowed some hair styles and dance moves from those Neanderthals down the valley.
I think Nietzsche had it right when he suggested that weak cultures attempt to assert dominance over strong cultures through the use of guilt and terminological revisionism.
LOVE this post, thank you! Terrific choices for your list! Enough of this "woke" nonsense! I have Chinese friends who laugh at this insanity, one of whom owns a bookstore which he calls THE ORIENTAL BOOK SHOP. Let's just all put duct tap on our mouths and stop speaking altogether! There is an ancient Oriental belief that cats, observing how stupid humans are, all decided to just stop speaking. I'm sure your trusty feline friends could verify this first hand.
A Japanese-American friend of mine loves Gilbert and Sullivan and adores the Mikado. He knows it's all about silly ass Victorian (and more recent) Englishmen and Japan is the ingenious disguise. He doesn't care a fig about "yellowface" makeup and costuming.
Agreed; noble sentiments. However, opera companies are stuck in the middle of this argument, and unfortunately must avoid offending ANYONE...even a single person....if they hope to continue drawing their artsy, mostly left-wing audiences. I think of the recent "Golden Edition" of the great old Warner Brothers cartoons on dvd, where we must endure a live prologue by Whoopi Goldberg explaining that these cartoons are "products of their time"; I assume Warner would not have released them without this. Which is all well and good...but what do Opera Companies do to sufficiently beat their breasts and repent when they present any of these "Oriental" operas....or the 3 Mozart/DaPonte operas, the Magic Flute, Traviata, etc , and the endless list of operas that feature "outdated" attitudes towards women (and which are continually the companies' "big sellers")? Where does it end?
@@HassoBenSoba The depiction of Asians in the operas Dave mentions tend to be much better than the depiction of Asians in much of broader popular culture. Renaming Ping, Pong, and Pang in Turandot Jim, Bob, and Bill as the Canadian Opera Company did or only casting Asians for Japanese roles in Butterfly as SFO did is ridiculous, and I am inclined to say that opera companies and audiences simply should accept that this is a Western art form. But I think you (I mean generally, not you specifically) are the problem if you don't see any issue with the way Asians are depicted in, say, Sixteen Candles and Breakfast at Tiffany's, of if you don't see any issue with the fact that Asians until recently were overwhelmingly depicted only as spiritual martial art masters, nerdy science kids with thick glasses and bowl cuts, or as Mulan. Asians in Asia and Asian immigrants don't get the problem either, but the children of immigrants sure do.
I love orientalist operas so much. Offenbach's Ba-Ta-Clan, Auber's Le Cheval de Bronze, Adam's Si j'etais roi, Gretry's Le caravane du Caire and Zemire et Azor (both fabulous), The Geisha by Sidney Jones (highly inappropriate lyrics). L'Orocolo is just teriffic and packs a lot of action into a single act. I'm glad you included it.
In the early 1900s, a Bavarian composer - fed up with the mannerist and ornamental way of depicting Eastern cultures in music - intended to write the ultimate Orientalist opera ... Salome.
Thank you for standing up for The Mikado, and for the other recommendations
When I saw the title my mind immediately went to my own favorite example, Rimsky’s Golden Cockerel so I was thrilled you included it with such enthusiasm.
Another fantastic list! I'm sure Edward Said would approve. 😁 Found the Leoni opera on Presto Music, going to stream it today. Never even heard of it. Thank you!
For your top 11, you could add Roussel’s boisterous Padmavati.
I like this exotic style of Opera. I like the Massenet operas. I also like Meyerbeer's L'Africaine. A good biblical Opera is Nielsen's Saul and David.
Right there with you on Massenet. Underrated overall.
Vasco is by far Meyerbeer's best work.
Amazing video Dave! As always! Maybe this could become a series? I would suggest/request a video on operas in the spanish theme which are not zarzuelas, to see how other composers view spain, I think that could be fun!
Interestingly, two operas I would have awaited from you, didn't come: "Djamileh" and "Padmavati". There's also a french opera in chausson-ravelian mode, "Marouf", which I like very much; and not to forget one of the few german operas without heaviness, Cornelius' "Der Dieb von Bagdad". But I hope you'll proceed with that wonderful cultural appropriations, which give us so much pleasure.
I've known the Cornelius as Barber of Baghdad. I've always thought that the title character, Abu Hassan Ali Ebn Bekkar, a bass who is endlessly garroulous, conceited, full of himself and will never shut up, was modeled on Wagner whom Cornelius knew. I believe that bit of mockery alienated Cornelius from the Wagner circle.
Thanks for this great list! Love it!
As with music, Orientalism in art history is an important historical phenomenon. Orientalism is the term that is used for art, as well. "Orientalism" isn't necessarily understood to be a problematic word. There are many major painters who did Orientalist subjects - Ingres, Delacroix, Whistler, Monet, Renoir, Matisse - to name a few. Yes, many writers and academics sanctimoniously drone on about the political aspects believing (falsely, I believe) that increasing awareness and knowledge will address the political problem. By the way, there's also the matter of self-orientalism - I think an example might be the promotions I've seen for the big Shen Yun show (I've not seen the show itself). I have an ethnomusicologist friend who considers much of Tan Dun's music to be self-orientalizing.
As unique and insightful an opinion on Puccini's dilemma (over the final plot resolution of Turandot) as I've ever heard: "...a living, breathing, pulsating, heaving woman....nahhh...have you ever SEEN Turandot? You think THAT"S going to happen?" (LOL)
Turandot and Calaf deserve each other. My own pet ending is Timur comes back in at the end and says it turns out that Liu is only wounded and is going to be OK.
I don't know if you could consider Britten's Curlew River an opera but somehow I feel it should be in some list of yours, strangest orientalist works or something. It was modeled on the mystery play, which is some sort of proto-opera (but what would those medieval player think if they suddenly got plopped into a performance of The Mikado?).
Pearl Fishers might be another to consider.
There's a brief moment near the end of Savitri when her "dead" husband awakens (he says: "Savitri..is it thou?") that is simply indescribable in its beauty, so I'll stop trying (it involves the entrance of the off-stage women's chorus that Holst so ingeniously integrated into this score). But get the Janet Baker version, conducted by Holst's daughter Imogen (I can't vouch for any other performance).
Thanks for your opening addressing of the "appropriation/Orientalism" issue. Puccini's "Butterfly" is indeed very respectful of the material, despite the libretto's occasional elements of caricature, a product of the times. But Cio-Cio San is one of the truly great, noble characters in all of opera (and let's not forget the wise and caring Sharpless, who does his best to prevent the tragedy). I only wish that your logical, open-minded view about the Orientalism issue will be adopted by the opera profession worldwide, which seems to be caught between the artistic/financial need to present these great works and their cultural/political concerns which are, alas, a very real thing, thanks to academia and "progress." LR
Salieri's "Tarare" is another fine opera with orientalist themes. Dare I say I like it more than "Abduction"? Rameau's fairy tale "Zaïs" is another favorite for me.
I think Puccini must have been inspired by Iris a lot when he composed the music to Butterfly and Turandot.
I have a question unrelated to this particular video, if you'll forgive me: I found in an old musical autograph collection a note signed by a composer named Edward German, described by the encyclopedia as "the successor of Arthur Sullivan." Apparently, when not composing light, comic opera, he tried his hand at conducting and symphonic writing. My question for you, given your ponderous knowledge of classical music and opera is this: Is German a composer of any historical note or merit? Did he write anything important or worth hearing? Thanks in advance!
May I answer with a yes? Merrie England is a superb operetta, libretto Basil Hood. It would likely have been set by Sullivan if he had lived. German's completion of Sullivan's The Emerald Isle is very fine. His Tom Jones has been recorded, he did some memorable incidental music and dances for Nell Gwynn.
Hus 2nd symphony "Norwich" is not a great work but it's a very good one and has been recorded on Dutton Epoch with other music of his. German himself recorded it acoustically!
By the way, he insisted his name was pronounced with a hard G. Especially so during WW1!
@bbailey7818 - 👏👏👏
Since we're counting The Abduction from the Seraglio for this category I'd add Rossini's Italian Girl in Algiers (which I love) and The Turk in Italy. The second act of The Egyptian Helen is more than a little orientalist. And any opera with Crusaders in it probably has a few "Saracens", as Argante is called in Rinaldo.
Charles Loeffler was supposed to write an opera from Okakura's play, 'The White Fox'. He never got around to it due to miscommunication over rights to modify the text. It's a shame, would have sure been a delightful work considering Loeffler's technique
Oh, I also must mention Charpentier's David and Jonathas, same story as Nielsen's, more or less; but gorgeous.
I remember watching a PBS program on Chinese-American actress Anna May Wong that included a modern artist, Doan Ly, reproducing Wong's stage act. She sang a song called "Sweet Jasmine" which I immediately recognized as one of the themes from Puccini's "Turandot." Obviously it was a traditional Chinese melody Puccini borrowed for his opera. I also liked your comments about Mascagni's "Iris," though rather than calling it "'Butterfly' on steroids" I'd say, "It's 'Rigoletto' moved to Japan." I have the Bonynge/Sutherland recording of Leoni's "L'Oracolo" somewhere in my CD collection and should dig it out sometime.
There is a great likelihood that the Turandot borrowing was the other way.
You must be familiar with Groucho Marx and Helen Traubel doing that duet from "The Mikado" ("...And I think I am sufficiently decayed..."). It's from a TV "Mikado". Groucho loved G&S, and he must have had the time of his life doing this.
It's a cool list, but I would expand it to eleven operas by including AIDA.
Massenet is unjustly neglected.
Other emblematic examples are Giulio Cesare by Handel and Les Indes Galantes by Rameau.
Another funny example : Handel wrote an opera named Fernando which took place in Spain ; then, apparently for political reasons, he re-named it Sosarme and it took then place in the Middle East. Which proves that the music had no connection whatsoever with the location !
Just for the record, and I could be wrong, but I don’t get from Said’s writing that making orientalism a dirty word is any part of what he’s trying to do. It seems to me his project is about power relationships and how those show up in and are reinforced by ideas about non-Europeans rather than nomenclature.
But more importantly, I love your videos and your writing.
That's my understanding of Said's book. I believe that he also loved French Orientalist literature, at least that's one of the things I got from reading his book so long ago.
Dear Dave, you should have saved your Thai Crisp illustration for this video, because that's what you gave us: something operatic, Oriental, and scrumptious. Thank you. Wesley
I think you forgot Nixon in China by Adams
Yes, I thought that too :)
I don't accept Said's whining either.
I once heard a performance of Savitri played outdoors and, despite threatening inclement weather, it was sheer magic.
I'd add Bizet's Djamileh, Pearl Fishers, and Meyerbeer's L'Africaine/Vasco da,Gama. Auber's Le Cheval de Bronze is Chinese but has no musical local color whatsoever, so the delightful overture will do. Another hilarious treat, dramatically and musically, is Offenbach's Ba-ta-Clan.
Sullivan's The Rose of Persia deserves more exposure as well.
I'd nominate Massenet as music's greatest master of local color or couleur locale as the French say.
Said does not whine.
As you say, when other cultural influences are found in Western culture it's Western cultural appropriation. The opposite, when other cultures are influenced by Western culture, is Western cultural imperialism. Any cultural exchange involving us Westeners is inherently bad, apparently. It's all nonsense mainly peddled by self-loathing Western academics of course - borrowing interesting stuff from other tribes is surely a phenomenon as old as our species. I wouldn't be surprised if our Homo Sapiens ancestors borrowed some hair styles and dance moves from those Neanderthals down the valley.
I think Nietzsche had it right when he suggested that weak cultures attempt to assert dominance over strong cultures through the use of guilt and terminological revisionism.
LOVE this post, thank you! Terrific choices for your list! Enough of this "woke" nonsense! I have Chinese friends who laugh at this insanity, one of whom owns a bookstore which he calls THE ORIENTAL BOOK SHOP. Let's just all put duct tap on our mouths and stop speaking altogether! There is an ancient Oriental belief that cats, observing how stupid humans are, all decided to just stop speaking. I'm sure your trusty feline friends could verify this first hand.
A Japanese-American friend of mine loves Gilbert and Sullivan and adores the Mikado. He knows it's all about silly ass Victorian (and more recent) Englishmen and Japan is the ingenious disguise. He doesn't care a fig about "yellowface" makeup and costuming.
Agreed; noble sentiments. However, opera companies are stuck in the middle of this argument, and unfortunately must avoid offending ANYONE...even a single person....if they hope to continue drawing their artsy, mostly left-wing audiences. I think of the recent "Golden Edition" of the great old Warner Brothers cartoons on dvd, where we must endure a live prologue by Whoopi Goldberg explaining that these cartoons are "products of their time"; I assume Warner would not have released them without this. Which is all well and good...but what do Opera Companies do to sufficiently beat their breasts and repent when they present any of these "Oriental" operas....or the 3 Mozart/DaPonte operas, the Magic Flute, Traviata, etc , and the endless list of operas that feature "outdated" attitudes towards women (and which are continually the companies' "big sellers")? Where does it end?
@@HassoBenSoba The depiction of Asians in the operas Dave mentions tend to be much better than the depiction of Asians in much of broader popular culture. Renaming Ping, Pong, and Pang in Turandot Jim, Bob, and Bill as the Canadian Opera Company did or only casting Asians for Japanese roles in Butterfly as SFO did is ridiculous, and I am inclined to say that opera companies and audiences simply should accept that this is a Western art form. But I think you (I mean generally, not you specifically) are the problem if you don't see any issue with the way Asians are depicted in, say, Sixteen Candles and Breakfast at Tiffany's, of if you don't see any issue with the fact that Asians until recently were overwhelmingly depicted only as spiritual martial art masters, nerdy science kids with thick glasses and bowl cuts, or as Mulan. Asians in Asia and Asian immigrants don't get the problem either, but the children of immigrants sure do.