Hyundai Sonata Misfire - Diagnosis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ต.ค. 2024
- Come along with Eric O at the SMA shop as he uses the PICO Scope to track down a secondary ignition problem on this misfiring Hyundai Sonata with the 2.7 V-6. Reading secondary ignition waveforms is an art-form in itself and something I struggle with. Looking forward to learning more as time goes on!!
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Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. South Main Auto Repair assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. South Main Auto Repair recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not South Main Auto Repair.
sloping down on the waveform in my experience usually indicates the spark jumped whatever the least path of resistance was before it fully hit the plug for the burn dissipation, the burn line is always even horizontally on every secondary system , the length of the burn line is spark duration but it should always nose up at the end when the fuel pulse shuts off , I think you completely understand it Eric give yourself more credit!
I'm an electrical engineer and I still learn plenty from watching Eric O going to town. A car's ignition system is a whole different world from the electrons zipping around the inside of your phone.
My 4 year old niece wandered into the garage yesterday when I was using the pico secondary ignition probe and loved it 😂 it held her attention for an hour at least.
There is always a few trolls that thumbs down the vidoes.. those poor people need lives. Always enjoy all your videos Eric. They are thoughtful, full of knowledge and I learn something new just about everytime I watch. Thanks for all that you do!
I totally agree with you! Just because the video may not have been exactly what you were looking for or you didn't understand it... doesn't mean it deserves a negative comment or reaction!
I have a issue with my 2004 on number six. Now I know what to look for. Thanks for this video.
Excellent and educational video, thank you Eric. I’m very interested in understanding ignition waveforms and I really appreciate your insights.
It sounded like a old washing machine on spin cycle 😂
@Dakota Damien this post is from 4 freaking years ago why the hell did you feel the need to comment? 🤦♂️
I recommend the Scanner Danner channel, he is an expert in this form of diagnostics, and a good start to learn is with Mr Danner. Great job Mr O, I learn allot from you also, and your a great humbled mechanic. Thanks for sharing your gift!
I will have to check out this ScannerDanner you speak of! Sounds like one heck of a great guy and teacher!
Eric O i think your a very good teacher sure sparked my attention, looking forward to more.
nice pun sir ;)
that's the beauty about this job , that we can find new and more efficient ways to find problems, and always learning new things,good videos, and thank you for taking the time to post them,
Yes, more secondary analysis and programming in future videos, please.
Nice catch on the Tracking as you pulled the spark plug boot out Eric O @18:00 @SouthMainAutoRepairLLC
Thanks Eric. Enjoy the more detailed training style approach. Hope all is well there in Avoca these days.
great video eric o i like your pico skills i need to work harder on mine at 23.04 when you disconnected the injector to create the lean condition you want to snap the throttle and you will see the spark line curve up almost as high as the firing line with no fuel going into the cylinder best wishes to you
Good point, I will experiment with that and see what it looks like
I have been looking into some pico scopes, but it will be a learning curve, your videos have made it simpler to understand. The last time I used a scope was about 20 years ago on distributor system and that was a big Allen scope that stood about 6ft tall 4ft wide. It did everything except make lunch lol. I'm sure making those videos has to slow your productivity. Thank for all that you do!
Heck yeah man get back on board and get a scope! Super fun to play with .
Although the Picoscope software is the best by far you can buy you don't need to spend Pico money for a scope, get something cheaper to start with, even a bargain basement Hantek 1008 will take a very long way.
Misfire diagnostics - love em'! Well done sir. Learning along with you will be a pleasure. Thanks Eric!
Well we all have to learn any way we can!
What a great demonstration.
I love it Eric, I also struggle with secondary ignition, I have watched a
lot of videos on the subject and I think Jim Morton does the best, he
explains that if you draw a vertical imaginary line though the middle
of the burn line anything to the right of your vertical imaginary line
is happening in the cylinder and to the left is outside of the
combustion chamber, so when you seen the low "fire" line it was outside
the cylinder like you shown us.
Great Job and would love to see a video on secondary and primary's
I do recall him saying that yes. Time for me to go back and watch that again!
Reading ignition waveforms is super-easy! Just look at the peak kV, average it by the inverse of the decay rate per millisecond of the initial oscillation, then replace the engine and bill the customer. ;)
Great video, Eric! You're far more brave than I am to be handling plug wires with a known leakage path.
Your right the more secondary the more you learn still have my old Sun machine in the shop and use it on the older cars good job good video , there's a lot of good books that show wave forms and go into detail if that helps .
Add to the big Conclusion , lady We found your problem. The money light is on tata
Great diagnostic video. These remind me to get on the Scanner Danner premium channel and use yours as a reference. Once again great job!
I was waiting for the plug wire to zap you and you get to do the dissipation dance. Remember the Sun scopes and all we had for waveforms was secondary ignition superimposed & raster. We had an old mechanic in the shop and he'd walk by and see your pattern and tell you exactly what the problem was. He taught me a lot but he retired 2 months after I had started & I wish I had more time with him b/c I had to learn thru books and the hard way. Great video & diagnosis!
I should have busted out my sun machine for this one..... oh yeah didn't know I had one of those did ya :)
That's cool but it's probably collecting a lot of dust. Let me see Pico or big ass Sun machine...ahh Pico and speaking of Pico mine will be here tomorrow...YES!!
Oh well nice talking to ya... see ya in 3 weeks when you come back from the shop haha
You got that right probably won't get crap done. Someone will want an oil change and have the Pico hooked up to it.
I miss the sun scope and being able to see all the cylinders at once etc. I got to work with a 20+ man for a few years and learned a ton about how to diagnose cars and cheat a lot of repairs to be fast.
Eric, you make great videos and you have an understanding of wave forms that I will never have even though I have been in the business for 40+ years. In this case a scan to find out where the miss was and a visual inspection would have found the problem right away and the Pico could have remained in the cabinet. Sometimes by having the electronic tools we feel the necessity to use them and over complicate a simple mechanical diagnosis.
Well you have some truth there. This is how I think of it. YES 100% visual inspection would have won in this case HOWEVER if we use our scope on known bad systems and gain bad waveforms and can compare them to good very easily then when we are faced with a challenge of lets say scoping a coil under an intake, can we make the call with out pulling the intake? Does that make sense? I have no formal training so all I can do is learn from experience and try to make sense of it and store it in my memory bank.
Makes 100% sense. I guess I'm an old dog that doesn't want to learn new tricks.
you did great even Ivan like.
Great channel been watching for a long time .I've got a sonata same as your topic, have come across this issue a couple of times and my remedy is new coil ,plugs,wires,mine has 233.000 on it and goes great. Mal from oz
Hi Eric, to find a lean condition using secondary wave form you will have snap the throttle and observe the high kV on the spark line. very good video man.
Good tip , thank you
Pretty sharp Mr. O.
nice video,great to see real life faults and real time waveforms thanks
Really like your trouble shooting technique.
Eric i enjoyed watching this video. I was just waiting for you to get toasted from the plug leads......
Dont talk yourself down man you did great.
Its always good to learn i certainly did.
We should all donate to SMA and get him a 1080p camera.
Or even 4K
My camera is 1080p but my upload speed is WAAAYYYYYY to slow for all that mess haha. I try to keep it the best I can and have them upload with in 24hrs... I mean slow man!!
Ok cool yea, i just looked up your city. I wouldn't expect they have great internet in a city with 2k people. Dial-up (sorry)?
I have got hit by a quad four in a grand am while hooking up leads for a state inspection. I touched the end where the primary wires come out the end. The coil pack at the end had cracked, and doing inspections in August in Texas I was sweaty. My arm tingled for a few hours. Lit me up pretty good.
great video bud to see a lean misfire you have to snap the throttle and on the snap you will see the burn line spike to near the same kv as the spark line
Another Awesome video thgthganks for the lessons Chris
Another good video. Yes you are a professional, you get paid, and your not selling unneeded parts. I first thought, why is he changing the plug's You must remove the upper plenum, so installing plug's at the same time will aloow 1000,000 miles of expected drive time. That's worth the extra money, PRO. Good job.
Bit of scope action I see (always a good thing), will watch this tonight :-)
thanks you just answered my question . it does have a ground
I haven used my Pico in ages , have to update it and check out the new features . Cheers
Shame on you Steve ! LOL !
Billy R Haha I know I'm slipping.
Yeah I am using their BETA software they have on the web site
PICO has great software, but their hardware is getting very old.
Why change perfection though old wizard? Do you know of a auto scope with a faster sampling rate and bigger storage?
lucky it was a waste spark system otherwise unplugging the plug wire sometimes fries the coil,
Great job as usual.
Awesome I first thought it was skipping but I see that it was misfiring out of the cylender and now better know and understand better the reason why and how that appears to happen
good diagnostic amigo. excellent amigo
Thanks Mr.O🍻cheers.
NICE WORK ERIC, ...maybe grab some known good wave forms once wires and plugs fitted for future reference. I find the probe really good for a fast quick and dirty look at each cylinder waveform. Maybe hook up a regular inductive Pico clamp on one cable and probe adjacent wires for comparison of waveform. Always fun learning on your channel Eric. Just heading into my home shop to look at a crank no start Hyundai Getz.
When you disconnect the injector, I think you will see the lean cylinder difference on the scope if you power brake the vehicle. The firing line will slope upward. At idle it may be able to sniff some fuel from the manifold and other cylinders, but won't keep up under load. The secondary miss will show up better if you power brake it as well. Nice videos.
Snap throttle my man Snap throttle. Cool vid. I wonder if you could do the same with a cop coil?
I was saying the same thing when Eric pulled the injector for a lean misfire..guarantee you would have notice the difference then. SNAP it Brother (:
Nice !
OK I'm ready for a great Eric O and ScannerDanner crazy video...And how about ETCG as a MC? That would be awsome!!!
Excellent video. Thank you.
When you unplugged the injector you should have snapped the throttle and it would have shown the second kv spike go up almost as much as the first one. Great find on the coil.
Reminds me of the old days. We would wrap electric tape around the wires and drive it that way till payday,then go buy new wires. In the good ole days thats exactly how mechanics tested a spark plug wire,pull them one by one till you found the one that was acting up. As soon as you said after market plug wires I knew what it was. I myself have replaced several cheap sets of wires. You sell yourself short as far as your knowledge,seriously you do great on finding issues. I personally dont rely on test equipment all the time. Old school is still the best method on some things. When it comes to trouble shooting your modern electronics it still boils down to the basics. Dont sell yourself short,ever. You are doing great and as far as being scientific,thats a laugh. Science is still just an educated guess. I learned that years ago.
good show
Too bad you can't stack the graphs so you could have a good one on top and cycle through the rest of the coils on a bottom graph. I like these videos too. All of them are interesting Eric. 👍
excellent mechanic!
I just wish pico made a handheld all in one type scope like the vintage but you know work awsome pico software. That would be awesome.
morning Eric o
Keep up the good work.
WANT AN "SMA" T-SHIRT OF YOUR OWN!?! Heck yes! Double thumbs up video. Setting aside money for the Pico - may take a while....
Love the channel..... But when Ivan and you bring out the scope i have to leave haha.
The screen flicker in the camera isn't caused by the Display Refresh Rate setting. It's caused by the backlight. The LED will pulse at different speeds to dim the screen. Just run the LCD at full bright to prevent the screen from flickering on camera.
Hi Eric,Can't you just wrap more electrical tape on the wire good to go..I hear that all the time down here.Hahaha
I've had to cut the fingers off of my latex gloves, slide them over the wires & tape it up for a guy who needed to get down the road in a hurry LOL
One Auto, It's always I have no money so just a quick fix and years later you see it again the same way haha
STEVE ROB Somebody like that needs to just get an old crappy looking beater so everyone else on the road knows what kind of maintenance they're dealing with.
InsideOfMyOwnMind hahahah
If you put the plug wire on and then fill the tube with RTV that works HAHA...then it seals the oil & ignition leaks. The next person doing plugs will appreciate it :D
Nice vid Mr.O - In case you want to find out where that engine noise is coming from you might want to watch Scotty's video on engine noises. He said you can stick a giant screwdriver in your ear and that will help you find it. :-)
The screwdriver trick works. It allows the noise to travel directly to the bone in the ear and blocks the outside noise. Just stay away from things like the fan or alternator fan. Another trick is a simple section of vacuum tubing or even garden hose. Hold it tight to the ear and use the other end to find the noise. I like my mechanics steth better but both are valid methods.
Oh man Scotty is spot on, a bit of a lunitic but spot on with the screw driver. I use it from time to time in a hurry and it works well. I do like my Steelman engine ear a bit better though ;)
Hi Eric great video as always ! I did a training course with frank Massey on secondary waveforms .from my notes !! burn line heading down can be ( shunt as in your case ) no or low compression ,no gap on plug and spark line heading up ,lean / large gap on plug / increase in compression and I'm sure he said but maybe wrong that the coil on plug prob is not great for looking at spk line direction and use the clamp on style where poss ( all with your pico)
You took a class with Massey!? Oh man now I am jealous. Sure would love to sit in on his classes someday.
South Main Auto Repair ,yeap I've done 7 courses with him , very knowledgeable chap ,he's the reason I got myself a pico and I'm just a Diy guy but trying hard to learn ,from frank your good self and danner
well the reason why you just didn't't change the spark plugs is because YOU are not a parts changer GREAT VIDEO THANKS
test not guess!!
As for the screen flickering, a lot of monitors with LED backlighting use PWM to dim the screen which can cause a camera to see flickering if the PWM frequency is low enough. If you're getting flickering try turning the backlight brightness up to full, which will hopefully be 100% duty cycle and thus no flickering.
I remember local dealers used to sell these claiming it looked like a Merdeces
Eric you also had external resistance at the wire connection to the plug I bet. When you see the burn line higher, it means the resistance is blocking the current flow through the plug and therefore you have a higher spark line. Review the Jim Morton Video on TST and you will see what I mean.
Damn Eric, you must REALLY want to go nuts, especially with that Jaguar in the background...hope it's not in there for electronic issues....
A good plug and a good new boot with sufficient and proper dielectric grease should eliminate this happening. One point to remember is that a really sharp edge on the spring or the clip that snaps onto the plug can concentrate the HV field and cause a local breakdown which could eat the rubber. One more reason for using copious dielectric grease. It's not just a lubricant. It seals out water AND it stops those tiny discharges at sharp points.
Hi eric do a video on the jag I've had six of them over the years I think it would be very interesting to see
As Jim morton said “high resistance external the combustion chamber.”
Hey Eric you sure Ivan is not there you sound like him now? But what ever good work MR O
Is that a jag next to It? good job friend!
I think zooming in on the firing event would help... the lean condition had a more distinct shape then the firing-outside-cylinder to my eye, appears to go upwards with sharp upcurve at the end instead of down...
thanks Eric, another option when using picoscope is screen recording is obsproject.com its free and light on CPU usage cheers sandy
Like the jag.
Forced to deal with local mechanics here in Rhode Island and it amazes me what total dumps their shops are. Just got done payin 90 clams for a thermostat for my dodge ram 2500 pickup. Shit hole shop and flat rate labor to boot.. Sucks to get broken in Rhode island.
:( Bummer
Maybe you could have done with turning on the "Peak Detect" function for this test. With any of these digital displays of waveforms, you have to keep in mind you're looking at a graphical representation of a series of numbers, taken at discrete intervals, depending on your time base setting and screen resolution, from an even larger number of values which are actually being sampled and held at the A/D converter. In this manner, it's quite easy for your display to "step over" the actual peak value from the coil just before the spark occurs.
By turning on the "Peak Detect" function, internally, the scope continually flags the highest voltage measured over the time period between two pixels on the screen, so, even though it might turn your trace more "fuzzy*, you should get a more consistent read-out of the spark threshold voltage.
another excellent video Eric. one thing- was wondering what the fuel trims were doing. would think the excess O2 would cause a lean condition.
u are right . The ft's would be positive
I would also recommend those squeaking idler pulley's
love the show I would like to see a s10 2.2 fixer thanks again
s-10s are a thing of the past here in the rust belt
I have a s10pickup I the backyard and It needs tlc it has 77,000 it has a hole in the motor block 2wd it wont turn over it clicks I think it's the crankshaft I see in the hole. Any advise like used motor. If I saw you replace one I think I could too. Great show Eric ...
I am along for the learning experience !
Realistically, with almost all cars now having COP, how frequent are secondary failures ?
You and Ivan need read what you can about primary ignition analysis and then through some experimentation on various systems (distributor, waste spark, COP) come up with a diagnostic procedure. (I remember 20+ years ago working for one of the Detroit 3, discussing with a team of experts, how to diagnose primary and secondary ignition system "concerns" by looking at the primary signal. Never happened because it required very high speed sampling of the primary waveform.)
Have you seen this one th-cam.com/video/mXTJTBL9HMU/w-d-xo.html
How did I miss that !
dunno...
Nice job! Motor sounds like it's coming apart, fix that squeaky pulley!
Primary reflects secondary but does it on a old distributor ignition system??? have not much experience but I never seen secondary look the same as primary on old distributor engine. Nice video Eric..............
Hyundai with a 2.7...sounds strangely familiar. Something to do with camshafts and twisting? Can't remember...
Ahhh the good old days :)
Seems to me that looking at secondary through the primary on 2 plug coils is not very difinitive. In that I mean, with this type of miss fire, the coil is also firing on a "dead" cylinder every time, regardless. make sense??? Great vid tho, keep'em comin' BOSS!
Well primary reflects secondary to a T. We will try this in an up coming video and check the results.
to bad like to see his out fit thanks
What are your thoughts on a Kia product? I have some one here at home that wants one but I don't know anything about them. Thanks for all your videos. I do learn a lot from you. Thanks
be thankful it was a on a front cylinder. i hate those motors you have to remove the plenum to change the plugs on!! bad design
Have you had any luck getting a secondary parttern on a 3 wire COP set up? Only vehicles I can get any ignition waveforms on are either 2 wire COP or plain plug wires. 3 wire transistor style coils seem, like you can only do current ramp waveforms.
wow you have a British Jag behind you who said all of us English people drive Mini's
while eating fish and chips right? BTW I did work on a Mini the other day. A "clubsman" I believe it was. Pretty fun car to drive. Had an overwhelming urge to go drink tea though.....
lol lol
thanks e o
They make insulated pliers for pulling wires. You are crazy yanking out those wires. It seams every time I yank the wire off my lawnmower I get it haaaard
I was riding a big mower once and stood up to check the gas and hit the ignition wire...ended up throwing the gas cap about 50 yards.
I miss my scopes last one was a bear base with four gas
hey Eric , I am a fan of your work an knowledge. I need some work done to my truck. I have a big oil leak an can't find it. The truck is a f150 with a efi 302 . Was wondering a good way to spot a oil leak an if I can't find it an fix it , could I maybe make a appointment for you to look an fix it? Thx so much for the videos!
So what is the story on the Jaguar that has been hanging out in the last few videos? I would venture to guess you could get your rocket surgery phd going through the wiring on that thing
Chrisfix broke his dad's Jag and had to take it to Eric to get it fixed, lol!
He pulled it with his truck, which was full of parts from the 2nd jag he bought (and still haven't sold all the parts from yet)
Chris Freemesser That is Scotty's car. lol.
Lets remember, 1st of all great job. I'm old and remember Toyotas that cheap plugs wires were put on without the insulating ring at the end of the spark plug wire, then check your gap and old plugs.. Then the ones that get you are hairline carbon tracks. Then it was cold starts dropping that cylinder. For ugly intermittent problems try a bit of power braking then things happen quickly.. Thank you young man I don't watch tv anymore,,,, Your thought process and experience really shows in the way you process in the thought ,,,,, Okay what's the why of it all..... Lets do some more of this(:
Please Eric put an idler or tensioner and belt on that thing...!
I noticed the probe does not have a ground clip to bleed off a spark that might come through the insulation. I know its shielded but ??
Eric - and yet another great video. However, about those guys who can use a probe and tell you what color underwear you've got on. DON'T go there - as much as I love your videos and respect you ability I really don't want your probe anywhere near my underwear!
Haha nope they can do it by checking you ignition on your car! That good I swear haha!
and when you have a downward slope it can also be a rich condition or high resistance rich would have a low spark kv with a down ward slope on your burn kv high resistance would have a high spark kv with a down ward slope fire line