David, i recently purchased a 2011 les paul. And mind you following all your guidelines, which i apply to all my guitar setups, which are only guidelines, my guitars rock. On the new purchase i did have to raise the tailpiece on the high E side a bit to clear the bridge. Not a fan of the overwrap. Guitar intonation balls on, stays in tune. Well said in this video. Your videos make a bowl of popcorn more enjoyable. Thank you brother, be safe and keep rockin!!
I have a Jimmy Page commemorate addition Les Paul with an over rapped bridge. I've been playing since I Was 12 Years old, and I'm 69 now, and I like it that way. thanks for the video.
Man... Thanks so much for this video! Just bought a new guitar (Les Paul, funnily enough), and wanting to try my hand at my own set up, as I need much thicker strings and a lower tuning. I've watched a bunch of other videos - as well as buying a book on the subject - and not a single one of them mention raising/lowering the stop bar, and avoiding having the strings touching the back of the bridge. This is another level of comprehensive... Great stuff. Thank you!
One of the greatest songs with bass lead in history you should do a different song ever so often I think it would be cool but you picked a good one love that song
I did the top wrap thing for a while too, stupid idea. Every luthier I took my SG to told me not to do it. Haven't top wrapped my strings since. It didn't make much of a difference anyway lol.
I keep a decent break angle on all my Les Pauls. I use Tw25b (military gun grease in a syringe applicator) on my nut and saddles. My Les Pauls hold tune as well as my Floyd equipped guitars with locking nuts. Once I discovered that Tw25b (on accident), I’ve never had tuning issues. Graphite, nut sauce, Vaseline, whatever. It’s all garbage. Tw25b is incredible. I discovered it at my buddy’s house. I was checking out some of his firearms. I was blown away how smooth they operated. I asked him what he uses. He gave me a syringe tube of the Tw25b. When I got home later I decided to change strings on my guitar. I decided to try that lube on my guitar. Never looked back. And because it’s a grease, it stays where you put it. Only takes a very tiny dab. 🤘🏻🇺🇸🤘🏻
Good episode tonight Dave. Makes me want to check the string angle on my Paul right now. Or maybe tomorrow. Really like the finish on this one tonight. Who thought a plain top could look so fabulous.
Dave, been waiting for this video for a year. the ultimate guitar, the great Dave setup. I have 3 Gibson Les Pauls, 76 Les Paul Standard Tobacco burst, has sunburst back and front and back of neck. 1981 Les Paul custom Cherry sunburst, and 1989 Les Paul Standard in Ebony. all have GHS boomer .009-.042s. they play great they sound great and not very often do I have to even tweek the trussrod. I never ever take all strings off, I change on string at a time starting with the high E and going up. I oil and clean frets under each string one at a time. never had a problem. a Les Paul is a work of art. thanks buddy look forward to next video. I gor my string height guage and all right where you want them. and you are right about back of string touching the back of the bridge. a huge nono. Larry
@@DavesWorldofFunStuff Bill called me personally the last time I had pups ordered from him, been about 10+ yrs ago now...we talked over an hour on the phone...it was great! He was so far over my head and understanding it was laughable but I got a set I'll NEVER part with...they sound amazing!!! I built a "flying Paul"...kind of like a Marauder but with LP balls to the walls!!! Love it, but, but, but, I'm a bass player!!! LOL
While I’m no physicist, I can feel when strings play lighter or tighter. This leads me to believe there must be more to the break angle discussion than just string tension for a given pitch. If I had to guess, different break angles changes the elasticity of the strings dead area (between bridge and stop bar) thereby changing the strings effective (or players perspective) elastic length. At a steep angle, the string feels more like the length from nut to bridge, as you decrease the angle, the string starts to feel more like nut to to stop bar. You are gaining the elasticity from the dead area.
Every time I bring my SG to GC for set up they do a bang up job on it every time. All my non fancy guitars come back clean as a whistle but a set up still needs to be done.
Friction at the saddle is affected by the break angle. It's what keeps a string from gliding freely in the saddle. The only way to remove said friction is using a material with a friction coefficient of zero... or reducing the y-axis component of tension at the saddle to 0 which would mean no break angle, but then no pressure on saddles, no vibration transfer to bridge, lame tone (think jazzmaster.)
No about "stretching" yes about top wrap. As stated in other responses, bending a string is making it longer between the two fixed points, the very definition of stretching. I love Dave but he is not an expert in physics.
He should stop trying to teach. The whammy spring issue is nauseating, once a spring is engaged is the issue he flutters past. Now he is playing licks ;)
I seem to remember reading somewhere that back in the day in the Gibson factory they set the string angle behind the bridge to be the same as the angle behind the nut.
I had a hard time figuring out what's the best truss rod setting for me for couple of years! There's a lot of conflicting information if you're trying to learn this stuff of of youtube, trying to save money😄. Straighter necks never worked for me. Somehow anything under 010" relief and my guitars loose on tone and I need to start raising action past 12th fret. Harmonics will be hard to get too. You live you learn.. Appreciate the videos! Learned a lot 🤘
I wrap my Les Paul to get the stop lower because I find that more comfortable. If I go through the holes it's jacked way up. I also have a JA90 Tele which I call the Lestercaster because it's a thinline tele shaped short scale, set neck, ABR bridge dual P90 that lets me drop the stop bar without wrapping the strings, so I don't. I can't say I notice a difference in either guitar set up either way in actual string playing, just how my hand sits at the bridge. Dave speaks truth, listen up people! ;)
Thats what im saying, you got to be a player to feel these things, non players say its bs, but ill let you decide on that Ps: i mean a real player, one who tries to do it as a profession
The strings are stretching when you bend. Then they spring back. If they didn't stretch, the neck would visibly bow with each bend. The strings do slide in the saddles and nut slots. More at the nut and very little at the bridge. If the strings bind, there will be tuning issues. Properly lubed and filed saddles and nut slots will cure tuning issues. Any tuning issues at the bridge will probably not be cured by top wrapping alone. I had issues on one of my Les Pauls, and tried top wrapping and it didn't help much. A light touch with nut slot files did the trick.
In reality when you bend a string two things happen. The main effect is that the tension in the string increases, otherwise there would be no increase in pitch. The other thing that happens is that the string elastically deforms; in other words the string slightly increases in length. Nickel steel is ductile and it performs essentially identically to a rubber band when tension is applied (obviously it’s elasticity is much less than rubber). When a high E string is tuned to concert pitch it has a tension of roughly 13lbs. That induces a very high stress in the string and the string stretches and increases it’s length by roughly 4mm. The additional length is wrapped around the post of the tuner. Further increases in tension due to normal bending probably causes the string to deform by a fraction of a millimetre.
You're missing the scope at 09:40 where he refers to the string not stretching over its full length. He never clearly said it's not stretching at any point, it's just not supposed to stretch between the bridge and the tailpiece as said at 09:54
You can argue all you like about physics, the FEELING of how much effort is required to bend a string changes hugely when you raise and lower the bridge. What's happening is irrelevant, how it feels is important
David you and I have similar idea's on whatever ever happens to a string when bending a string, I like your hypothesis you and I think a lot a like and there are physics involved.
I had probably a tiny portion of your experience in matter of Les Paul's, but I think should be needless to say you're one of the few humans on Earth explaining it right and straightforward. So my respects and regards to you , Dave. The "wrap-around" matter/solution is a thing only for those Gibson's which left the factory with a neck joint angled more than 4 degrees (steeper than normal production, sometimes even 5). T'was tolerated in the Norlin era (much better to rule the bridge as high as heaven than sending the guitar back to luthiers , read sarcasm.) and ONLY in that case wrapping strings around the stoptail was a thing. Could be kind of genial and zero costs , but was a solution only for 5% of Les Paul guitars.
In a parallel universe Bill is wearing a DWOFS t-shirt ;-) And I like the way Dave has no mercy for the myth's and the snake oil that seems to be everywhere in the guitar world.
Hello Dave! I love your videos very much! Very instructive and informative. Tell me please, what size probe do you use to measure string action? Thank you!
I’m down here in Minot , North Dakota and I agree, the weather will change the wood ! Especially for us northerners ! Another great video Dave , beautiful LP as well…. Someday I’ll get myself a real Gibby but for now I have one of the Epiphone 50s standards and a firefly Goldtop. Both decent guitars for the money. As a living room Keith Richards wannabe i just can’t justify spending thousands on a guitar. Granted I have yet to put my hands on a real Gibson so idk what the feel and playability difference is ….
That IS a nice one.. you can tell when they have nice sound with no amp.. and thankyou. I steward an R9 VOS and its steep from the bridge to the anchor.. but only contact on one place on bridge.. im good. Cheers ! From Victoria BC
Another point is the greater the angle of the back creates more bind or tension at the bridge - like wrapping a rope around a peg. Good job like you said already.
I can testify that raising the tailpiece does actually make the strings slinkier. Been doing it for years. No disrespect brother, Dave. Much love to you!
I was impressed with the proper term used for the metal strips, AKA fretwires, and then it was ruined when the incorrect term, frets, was used for them.
The stopbar thing. The difference itDOES make is the vertical pressure on the bridge unit. On aluminium cast bridges, it is common for older units to have sagged under the pressure where the bar is screwed down. All the stories - tone tension etc - are bollocks. And the string DOES strech when you bend it, and it contracts again when you release it. Easily proved on a headless bass. Measure the string length. Bend the string and get someone to measure the two lengths between your finger and each end of the string. Add em together, its longer. Thats how elasticity works.
For a given string gauge and scale length, the tension required for the string to be in tune is a set number, nothing happening beyond the nut or saddle will affect the tension needed to be in tune. It is simple physics.
For a given string gauge and scale length, the tension required for the string to be in tune is a set number, nothing happening beyond the nut or saddle will affect the tension needed to be in tune. It is simple physics. BTW, I top wrap my Les Pauls because I like the look and prefer the stop tail to be "decked", it absolutely does not have any impact on the amount of tension required to be in tune or make easier bends.
"You can mess with this (bridge), you're not going to mess it up," Says Dave. Next video, "How in the hell did they mess up the bridge??" Aah-hahaha!!!
So I fucked up the bridge height while changing strings and now my Les Paul is about as far from set up as it can possibly be. I’m hoping the neck angle was fine but i live in dry Calgary and I’ve never even opened the truss rod cover. Went outside to smoke and found this video on TH-cam. Really appreciate it as I embark on a quest of self discovery to make my Les Paul great again. Any tips on setting up the bridge and tailpiece height would be much appreciated right now
I gotta say, raising the stop bar on my Les Paul made it feel a lot nicer to play, to me. I have it raised up quite a bit actually. It's strung with 9s, tuned to D standard. Bending is pretty effortless and controlled, no fighting with the guitar. I'm sure there's a scientific term for it. But I don't really care about that, it feels nice and I'm happy with that. EDIT: Just remembered, I had the same experience with raising the string trees on my Stratocaster, it got a lot slinkier feel after I did that.
I'm struggling to understand why it is so bad if the strings touch the back of the bridge. If the strings do not move back and forth on the bridge polepieces when the string is bent I can't see how it makes a difference if the string touches the back of the bridge. I have two guitars, on one no strings touch, on the other two of the strings touch. They both play just fine. Help! Cheers, John
They will leave marks in the bridge, same as overwrapping will mark the tailpiece. Chewing through the chrome/nickel/gold plating in your hardware makes it possible for rust to start getting into the hardware in these places. Also, it's a pointy edge pressing into your strings, bending them (and even pressing the strings down to the frets) pulls them and thus moves them and/or changes the tension where the bridge edge gnaws into the strings. You're increasing risk of string breakage.
Also another contact point that potentially "catches" the string, like a string tree behing the nut on Fenders. Meaning potential failure point that makes the guitar not return to its tuning after bending.
You will end up with tuning problems as well as intonation problems as the guitar string moves tension between the two points of contact while you play.
You have to think of this as a pulley or lever. How do you maximize your leverage and pull or otherwise move an object heavier than you would normally be able to? You find a fixed point somewhere in-between, and you lay a lever across that point, preferably on a rock or concrete, or something that can take that pressure. The amount of pressure then applied to that point is rather huge, as the lever is redistributing the weight of the object you are moving. Think of the string as the lever in this case. It's now exerting many times the normal tension on the point where it is touching the back of the bridge. That's eventually going to dig a little notch, killing the finish, and possibly catching and breaking strings and causing difficulties with tuning.
Great informational video Dave. All stuff I had learned from you long ago , but very entertaining! I'm still wondering if we'll ever hear from Larry about the Pup Height guage. Any info on your side? I really want one. Unless there two separate ones. Then I want one of each LOL! Thanks again for doin' what you do Brother. Don't go crazy! PEACE from Southwest Michigan, 🐉💀👽🎸🎶🎵🌎🌌🧠👍
Look at Joe Bonamassa's LP's, everyone he has is top wrapped. He says it makes for a slinkyness and easy bending, but he uses 11's on stage. But that's his personnel preference and everyone else's that does it. I don't wrap and thats my preference.
Overwrapping the tailpiece reduces the down force of the string at the saddle(or break angle over the saddle). IMHO), That IS tension. And there is less of an angle, and therefore less tension or break angle, from the fixed point at the peak of the saddle back to the tailpiece. I'm no physicist, but that's MHO.
You're conflating tension with downward force on the bridge. Downward force can be increased by increasing the break angle. At the same tuning pitch, break angle does NOT affect string tension. In regards to Dave's comments, obviously strings have elasticity, and DO stretch. If they didn't, bending notes would be impossible. When they DON'T return to pitch after a note bend, it's because either A) you've exceeded the strings elasticity and have permanently stretched the string, or B) the string is binding in the nut or bridge slots. Very simple. Think about this logically; If strings did NOT slide over the nut & bridge, it would be impossible to bring the strings up to pitch using the tuners. Once up settled in at pitch, however, sliding movement across the bridge saddles is negligible on a LP because of the short afterlength. (It's a more significant issue on guitars with long tailpiece afterlengths, like Jazzmasters.) On a LP, almost all of that sliding is going to occur at the nut, where the afterlength is much greater. This is why strings 3 & 4 are more problematic at returning to pitch, they have the most potential for movement due to the longer afterlengths. And yes, top-wrapping is stupid. (Because you can achieve the same resulting shallow break angle by simply raising the stopbar posts. It's why they're adjustable.)
I like Dave and I think he's right most of the time, but there are times when he says things that are just not true. My honest opinion about the overwrap is that on some guitars it can actually work very well. I tested it on my Les Paul and it didn't make much of a difference so I went back to the standard technique. When tested it on my ES-335 it made an astounding difference in the tension (strings felt slightly looser which was great) and I got less breakage (also great because I tend to bend my strings a lot). So I'm sticking with over-wrap on the ES and I don't use it on my Les Paul. In my humble opinion I think it's a good idea to test it both ways on any Gibdon you own and just use whatever works best on your particular guitar.
Joe my main reason for not over wrapping is I’m a collector as well as a player and I don’t want to add wear to parts of my guitars Because of aesthetic’s .
I can explain the different feel of the strings up to a point and you decide if you see it as BS and which particular point doesn't make sense to you. We distribute the increase of tension all along the length of the bent string, like to every link in a chain, mostly on the core of the string. We distribute that tension to three sections of the string in that configuration: The bit from the tuners to the nut, the bit between nut and the bridge saddles and the bit from the bridge to the ball ends. The steeper the break angle from the nut to the headstock and the more angle there is behind the bridge the more defined are the "fixed points" where the waves bounce back moving up and down the string. The steeper those two angles are, the more reluctant they are to change the tension in the outer sections to a certain degree until they have to. The way how the string reacts to the change of tension is slightly different while we end up with the same result. You can call it slightly altered longitudinal bending stiffness if you want it fancy. And some apparently argue that they can feel it, and as you know humans are good feeling with their fingertips. Every bump, every change in a surface and also changes in applied pressure or the way the curve feels while increase tension. Question is: Is it significant? Can we put 20 people to a double blind test if they can feel a difference only in the bending hand? For me, the wraparound is a last ditch effort to fix the problem with a too steep angle cause someone in the factory messed up. But initially it was just cheaper to sell the Les Paul Juniors that way. What the wraparound bridges with only adjustment at the posts do to intonation is another thing. I see it as a trend, some may feel it, others look for new mojo. Do you see more or less lifted/shifted posts with or without wraparound? Another approach to a lot of mojo: Guitar tech of a famous guitar player sees a problem part of the fix is visible, but something else (let's say pickup height) was slightly changed. The player loves his guitar and all his friends want to sound like him, so the visible change has to be on their guitar to believe in the change. The more something costs the more we also want to see and hear a difference based on our purchase, cause "didn't change a thing" would make us feel bad about the money we spent. Look! One of the bridge screws is missing...did he loose one or did he remove it to alter his tone? We don't have those tubes anymore but a boatload of those over there...5 minütes latör...discover the new XYZ sound, years of research brought us to this point!
Hope you and the family are doing well Dave! treat people the way you want to be treated,Cheers hoping for the world to go back to normal but more peaceful,lol
yeah, if the stop-piece is up too high and the strings are going level over the saddles.. the note does not ring well... and the string can pop out of the saddle groove, too.. all kinds of trouble :)
Is it not worth putting my electrics in a humidifier room in the winter? Should I just let them be? Since every time I take em out of said room or my house the temperature and humidity will drop dramatically in relation to the room? The humidity in the winter can go down to 20 along with the weather easily so I thought I might start putting in the extra care but then I wonder if it’s useful since no other setting would be that well contained . I also can’t find a tech who will set up this used sg I bought to not buzz. One didn’t bother to look at the guitar and the other told me today “ we don’t set up electric guitars for acoustic playing “ since I showed him the buzzing without the amp on... it buzzes on open and fretted notes and I payed him 180 for a new nut and re crowning frets and it did nothing for all the buzzing
Regards the top wrap, there are many reason they do it, but one reason was the neck angle was kinda hit and miss, so the strings would be touching the bridge and the tail stop woul have to be raised very high to stop this, I've seen a few cases when nearly 5/8 was the gap between the stop piece and body, enter the top wrap which also reduces the break angle which is always a good thing on any guitar, nothing wrong with top wrapping in my opinion and many famous guitarist use this method, for many reasons, I understand both sides of the argument but both methods are ok to me, I just explain why top wrapping came about if I'm asked to set one up that way, and how it will Marr the tail stop finish.
steel has elasticity. when you bend a string it does actually stretch and it is measurable. the string is fixed at the nut and saddle, yes. it doesn't or shouldn't drag over the saddle and sadly it does slide through the nut a bit if you were to measure the length of a string from nut to saddle (shortest distance between 2 points) and then while bending the string , measure from nut to finger and from finger to saddle there will be a longer distance.so you do stretch the string , it just happens to spring back in place when you let go. the same thing happens every time you fret a note, to a smaller degree. this additional length is greater than the slippage through the nut** and top wrapping is the best way to string a les paul because Jimmy Page lol
It's funny. I've looked at tons of live shots of Page's paul and I've never seen it top wrapped. I know his tele was a top loader maybe that's what everyone's talking about.
Oi Dave - I always thought it was best to have the pickup setting on the bridge on as opposed to using the front pickup for tuning. Does it make a difference. Love your shows!
These things are like '57 Chevy's... Nice. Well built... Gonna last! But cumbersome, larger than most, And actually sorta "stiff" for my tastes anyways, I could never express myself to the max with a Les Paul, for these reasons...
When I was a young kid and had my first Les Paul it was before the internet days I top wrapped only because I didn’t know what I was doing. And I did not have a book yet either. Next string change I notice the strings were digging into the tail piece. I was looking at it and realized oh I thread them in from the back. I bet a lot of this top wrapping was just an error like mine and grew into urban legend when someone purchased a Les Paul wrapped wrong from someone else. Lol. Or also could be someone used to the older Gibson style one piece wrap around tailpieces. And continued to thread them that way on the new two piece style.
You want the stop bar down on the deck...increased tone and sustain. The only reason to overwrap the string is when the stop bar is down and the string hits the back of the bridge. Overwrap and the string does not rest on the back of the bridge with the stop bar all the way down on the deck. Thats the idea anyway....
How much lean should the bridge have and what side (bass or trebble strings) should angle down or up? my saddle is perfectly level and Iv'e been told not to do that? My Gibson Lespaul is intinated perfect with new strings stretched in abd tuned as best as I can get them but it still sounds out of tune?
I have an Epiphone Black Les Paul Custom that is currently having brand new Seymour Duncan P90's put in, in place of the fairly crappy humbuckers that it came stock with about 20 years ago. Here's my question: there's a fairly deep V shaped ding in the third fret in-between the G and B string... I know better than to file it out cause it will make the one fret lower than all the rest, but I can't afford to have the whole fingerboard refretted, and I'm told you can't just have one fret replaced (though it seems like that is something that could conceivably be done, if the new fret was levelled to match the others), so IS THERE A WAY TO FILL THE DING in the fret that's damaged? This sounds impossible to me, but still seems like a question worth asking. I know soldering won't work because it's way too soft a metal and there's no way to shape it! Does ANYONE know of a fix for this problem that I obviously don't know about? ANYBODY... please throw me an answer, even if it's just to say I'm screwed!!!
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i love this guitar, and especially in this finish!
David, i recently purchased a 2011 les paul. And mind you following all your guidelines, which i apply to all my guitar setups, which are only guidelines, my guitars rock. On the new purchase i did have to raise the tailpiece on the high E side a bit to clear the bridge. Not a fan of the overwrap. Guitar intonation balls on, stays in tune. Well said in this video. Your videos make a bowl of popcorn more enjoyable. Thank you brother, be safe and keep rockin!!
Learned so much from you Dave. Love your videos and honesty. Hope all is well man
^ This. ^
Still the best guitar teacher on TH-cam, brilliant learning curve 👏🏻
The only thing Dave recommends wrapping is a sammich for later.
I have a Jimmy Page commemorate addition Les Paul with an over rapped bridge. I've been playing since I Was 12 Years old, and
I'm 69 now, and I like it that way. thanks for the video.
Dude you’re the shit! Your sense of humor is priceless. The myths like the tailpiece overwrap get really old. I just laugh now! Thanks!!
Dave must be bored. He sure is in the teaching mode today.
I could watch this forever....
Love the T-shirt Dave! Great pups and guitarist. Great message too Dave,”Be good to each other”
Man... Thanks so much for this video! Just bought a new guitar (Les Paul, funnily enough), and wanting to try my hand at my own set up, as I need much thicker strings and a lower tuning. I've watched a bunch of other videos - as well as buying a book on the subject - and not a single one of them mention raising/lowering the stop bar, and avoiding having the strings touching the back of the bridge. This is another level of comprehensive... Great stuff. Thank you!
The last time I was this early, Les Paul was playing a Les Paul.
If you were early, he'd still play Epiphone before being pestered to act as a figurehead duo with his wife.
Who cares, you self-centered asshole.
onpsxmember Pestered him by handsomely paying him and succumbing to his every whim?🤔
One of the greatest songs with bass lead in history you should do a different song ever so often I think it would be cool but you picked a good one love that song
Also, I love the Bill Lawrence shirt, MY first SG is a 1989 Special that has Bill Lawrence Circuitboard pickups in it.
Some of your best explaining Dave.
Wow, thanks Dave, never new that was a bass solo
I did the top wrap thing for a while too, stupid idea. Every luthier I took my SG to told me not to do it. Haven't top wrapped my strings since. It didn't make much of a difference anyway lol.
I keep a decent break angle on all my Les Pauls. I use Tw25b (military gun grease in a syringe applicator) on my nut and saddles. My Les Pauls hold tune as well as my Floyd equipped guitars with locking nuts. Once I discovered that Tw25b (on accident), I’ve never had tuning issues. Graphite, nut sauce, Vaseline, whatever. It’s all garbage. Tw25b is incredible. I discovered it at my buddy’s house. I was checking out some of his firearms. I was blown away how smooth they operated. I asked him what he uses. He gave me a syringe tube of the Tw25b. When I got home later I decided to change strings on my guitar. I decided to try that lube on my guitar. Never looked back. And because it’s a grease, it stays where you put it. Only takes a very tiny dab. 🤘🏻🇺🇸🤘🏻
Good episode tonight Dave. Makes me want to check the string angle on my Paul right now. Or maybe tomorrow. Really like the finish on this one tonight. Who thought a plain top could look so fabulous.
Dave, you really got the BEST intros dude. And again...again..yup, again..killer outro playing. Man I love that line.
Dave, been waiting for this video for a year. the ultimate guitar, the great Dave setup. I have 3 Gibson Les Pauls, 76 Les Paul Standard Tobacco burst, has sunburst back and front and back of neck. 1981 Les Paul custom Cherry sunburst, and 1989 Les Paul Standard in Ebony. all have GHS boomer .009-.042s. they play great they sound great and not very often do I have to even tweek the trussrod. I never ever take all strings off, I change on string at a time starting with the high E and going up. I oil and clean frets under each string one at a time. never had a problem. a Les Paul is a work of art. thanks buddy look forward to next video. I gor my string height guage and all right where you want them. and you are right about back of string touching the back of the bridge. a huge nono. Larry
Cool Bill Lawrence T-shirt Dave!
@@DavesWorldofFunStuff Bill called me personally the last time I had pups ordered from him, been about 10+ yrs ago now...we talked over an hour on the phone...it was great! He was so far over my head and understanding it was laughable but I got a set I'll NEVER part with...they sound amazing!!! I built a "flying Paul"...kind of like a Marauder but with LP balls to the walls!!! Love it, but, but, but, I'm a bass player!!! LOL
While I’m no physicist, I can feel when strings play lighter or tighter. This leads me to believe there must be more to the break angle discussion than just string tension for a given pitch. If I had to guess, different break angles changes the elasticity of the strings dead area (between bridge and stop bar) thereby changing the strings effective (or players perspective) elastic length. At a steep angle, the string feels more like the length from nut to bridge, as you decrease the angle, the string starts to feel more like nut to to stop bar. You are gaining the elasticity from the dead area.
Every time I bring my SG to GC for set up they do a bang up job on it every time. All my non fancy guitars come back clean as a whistle but a set up still needs to be done.
Note from a person who teaches physics... Dave is correct... listen to Dave ....!!!
A cat named coffee who teaches physics....2020 is a crazy year to be alive!
Friction at the saddle is affected by the break angle. It's what keeps a string from gliding freely in the saddle. The only way to remove said friction is using a material with a friction coefficient of zero... or reducing the y-axis component of tension at the saddle to 0 which would mean no break angle, but then no pressure on saddles, no vibration transfer to bridge, lame tone (think jazzmaster.)
No about "stretching" yes about top wrap. As stated in other responses, bending a string is making it longer between the two fixed points, the very definition of stretching. I love Dave but he is not an expert in physics.
He should stop trying to teach. The whammy spring issue is nauseating, once a spring is engaged is the issue he flutters past. Now he is playing licks ;)
@@Rick-uu5yo " bending a string is making it longer "- truth
That is exactly like MY guitar! Nope.. this one is more red, mine is an ice tea burst. OOPS! Got my beverages confused... mine is Root Beer Burst!
You're making me thirsty!
Thanks for your shoutout to Bill Lawrence :-)
I love a nice Les Paul in the afternoon.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that back in the day in the Gibson factory they set the string angle behind the bridge to be the same as the angle behind the nut.
I had a hard time figuring out what's the best truss rod setting for me for couple of years! There's a lot of conflicting information if you're trying to learn this stuff of of youtube, trying to save money😄. Straighter necks never worked for me. Somehow anything under 010" relief and my guitars loose on tone and I need to start raising action past 12th fret. Harmonics will be hard to get too. You live you learn..
Appreciate the videos!
Learned a lot 🤘
Dave's videos have me in a .... stranglehold.
That' comment is a Nugget … or close to it !
What, exactly, do you 'bass' that off of?
I wrap my Les Paul to get the stop lower because I find that more comfortable. If I go through the holes it's jacked way up. I also have a JA90 Tele which I call the Lestercaster because it's a thinline tele shaped short scale, set neck, ABR bridge dual P90 that lets me drop the stop bar without wrapping the strings, so I don't. I can't say I notice a difference in either guitar set up either way in actual string playing, just how my hand sits at the bridge. Dave speaks truth, listen up people! ;)
Man I'm always a sucker for a good looking burst!
I misread that as 'bust' first time … LoL
Beautiful guitar, that burst is perfect
It does change the feel when you move it up and down ...try it
Thats what im saying, you got to be a player to feel these things, non players say its bs, but ill let you decide on that
Ps: i mean a real player, one who tries to do it as a profession
Algorithm vs String Winder 🤣🎸 stranglehold baby!
Dave this was by far one of your top videos of all time. Thanks for turning it into a great learning tool! I feel a little less like your stress ball!
@Peter Dazer What concerns me, is why the eardrums bulge out, yet the eyeballs _do not_ ... it'th a conthpirithy...!
Thanks..Like what you do,Love to learn about the guitar set up.
Now I know I need to raise the stop bar on my brand new LP to clear the bridge. Thanks Dave. BTW I’m half Canadian Mom was born In Vancouver
The strings are stretching when you bend. Then they spring back. If they didn't stretch, the neck would visibly bow with each bend. The strings do slide in the saddles and nut slots. More at the nut and very little at the bridge. If the strings bind, there will be tuning issues. Properly lubed and filed saddles and nut slots will cure tuning issues. Any tuning issues at the bridge will probably not be cured by top wrapping alone. I had issues on one of my Les Pauls, and tried top wrapping and it didn't help much. A light touch with nut slot files did the trick.
In reality when you bend a string two things happen. The main effect is that the tension in the string increases, otherwise there would be no increase in pitch. The other thing that happens is that the string elastically deforms; in other words the string slightly increases in length. Nickel steel is ductile and it performs essentially identically to a rubber band when tension is applied (obviously it’s elasticity is much less than rubber). When a high E string is tuned to concert pitch it has a tension of roughly 13lbs. That induces a very high stress in the string and the string stretches and increases it’s length by roughly 4mm. The additional length is wrapped around the post of the tuner. Further increases in tension due to normal bending probably causes the string to deform by a fraction of a millimetre.
Agreed...if strings didnt move why would we stretch them to begin with??...daves just a little confused!!
You're missing the scope at 09:40 where he refers to the string not stretching over its full length. He never clearly said it's not stretching at any point, it's just not supposed to stretch between the bridge and the tailpiece as said at 09:54
@@eddiejr540 They aren’t stretching, you are simply seating the ball end, and tightening the wind at the tuner.
HAHA Love the Bass from Nugent's Stranglehold at 12:15+
You can argue all you like about physics, the FEELING of how much effort is required to bend a string changes hugely when you raise and lower the bridge. What's happening is irrelevant, how it feels is important
Beautiful guitar
I switch out al my Tune Matics to roller bridges--solves every problem, better sustain bend all you want no string breaks on those wedge knife edges
Love it or hate it, Dave is strumming out facts.
If top wrapping is good enough for Billy Gibbons, it's good enough for me.
David you and I have similar idea's on whatever ever happens to a string when bending a string, I like your hypothesis you and I think a lot a like and there are physics involved.
I had probably a tiny portion of your experience in matter of Les Paul's, but I think should be needless to say you're one of the few humans on Earth explaining it right and straightforward. So my respects and regards to you , Dave. The "wrap-around" matter/solution is a thing only for those Gibson's which left the factory with a neck joint angled more than 4 degrees (steeper than normal production, sometimes even 5). T'was tolerated in the Norlin era (much better to rule the bridge as high as heaven than sending the guitar back to luthiers , read sarcasm.) and ONLY in that case wrapping strings around the stoptail was a thing. Could be kind of genial and zero costs , but was a solution only for 5% of Les Paul guitars.
Your the best Dave
Cheers Dave! Your a cool dude, I really appreciate your videos! Take care
In a parallel universe Bill is wearing a DWOFS t-shirt ;-) And I like the way Dave has no mercy for the myth's and the snake oil that seems to be everywhere in the guitar world.
Thanks, Dave. I love the lessons and your explanations. Keep safe!
Great shirt! I have two sets of original Bill Lawrence Keystones in a Tele and a Strat.
The strings do stretch. They just don't exceed the elastic limit. That is they spring back.
Hello Dave! I love your videos very much! Very instructive and informative. Tell me please, what size probe do you use to measure string action? Thank you!
@@DavesWorldofFunStuff So, is that when you measure at 7th fret, with 1st and 17th frets clamped?
Nice piece of wood Dave.
I’m down here in Minot , North Dakota and I agree, the weather will change the wood ! Especially for us northerners ! Another great video Dave , beautiful LP as well…. Someday I’ll get myself a real Gibby but for now I have one of the Epiphone 50s standards and a firefly Goldtop. Both decent guitars for the money. As a living room Keith Richards wannabe i just can’t justify spending thousands on a guitar. Granted I have yet to put my hands on a real Gibson so idk what the feel and playability difference is ….
Having the tail piece raised you will definitely feel a difference. Raise it up a good centimeter and you'll see.
That IS a nice one.. you can tell when they have nice sound with no amp.. and thankyou. I steward an R9 VOS and its steep from the bridge to the anchor.. but only contact on one place on bridge.. im good. Cheers ! From Victoria BC
love your work great stuff!!!
Another point is the greater the angle of the back creates more bind or tension at the bridge - like wrapping a rope around a peg. Good job like you said already.
Friction, not tension.
@@TH-camHandlesAreMoronic If the bridge height stays fixed when the stop bar raises, will distance decrease between the two?
I can testify that raising the tailpiece does actually make the strings slinkier. Been doing it for years. No disrespect brother, Dave. Much love to you!
There's a reason why I have always wanted a Steinberger, the necks are made out of Graphite so they don't move at all.
That's the old ones. The new models are made of wood. The graphite necks were reputed to have their own problems too.
I was impressed with the proper term used for the metal strips, AKA fretwires, and then it was ruined when the incorrect term, frets, was used for them.
The stopbar thing. The difference itDOES make is the vertical pressure on the bridge unit. On aluminium cast bridges, it is common for older units to have sagged under the pressure where the bar is screwed down.
All the stories - tone tension etc - are bollocks.
And the string DOES strech when you bend it, and it contracts again when you release it. Easily proved on a headless bass. Measure the string length. Bend the string and get someone to measure the two lengths between your finger and each end of the string. Add em together, its longer. Thats how elasticity works.
I think that the lower the stop bar the more tension you have on the string and the less slinky it is. Bending gets a bit harder.
For a given string gauge and scale length, the tension required for the string to be in tune is a set number, nothing happening beyond the nut or saddle will affect the tension needed to be in tune. It is simple physics.
For a given string gauge and scale length, the tension required for the string to be in tune is a set number, nothing happening beyond the nut or saddle will affect the tension needed to be in tune. It is simple physics. BTW, I top wrap my Les Pauls because I like the look and prefer the stop tail to be "decked", it absolutely does not have any impact on the amount of tension required to be in tune or make easier bends.
"You can mess with this (bridge), you're not going to mess it up," Says Dave. Next video, "How in the hell did they mess up the bridge??" Aah-hahaha!!!
I can say with authority metal does stretch , either with tension or temp. Look up
Youngs Modulus for the Elasticity of steel
Excellent explanation!
So I fucked up the bridge height while changing strings and now my Les Paul is about as far from set up as it can possibly be. I’m hoping the neck angle was fine but i live in dry Calgary and I’ve never even opened the truss rod cover.
Went outside to smoke and found this video on TH-cam. Really appreciate it as I embark on a quest of self discovery to make my Les Paul great again.
Any tips on setting up the bridge and tailpiece height would be much appreciated right now
Knipex makes great tools.
Thanks for the extra goodness Dave. Be well.....
Preach Dave...!
that one looks nice.
I gotta say, raising the stop bar on my Les Paul made it feel a lot nicer to play, to me. I have it raised up quite a bit actually. It's strung with 9s, tuned to D standard. Bending is pretty effortless and controlled, no fighting with the guitar. I'm sure there's a scientific term for it. But I don't really care about that, it feels nice and I'm happy with that.
EDIT: Just remembered, I had the same experience with raising the string trees on my Stratocaster, it got a lot slinkier feel after I did that.
@@DavesWorldofFunStuff Yes, that and playing loud :P
I'm struggling to understand why it is so bad if the strings touch the back of the bridge. If the strings do not move back and forth on the bridge polepieces when the string is bent I can't see how it makes a difference if the string touches the back of the bridge. I have two guitars, on one no strings touch, on the other two of the strings touch. They both play just fine. Help!
Cheers, John
Maybe it could cause a small buzz? Maybe?
They will leave marks in the bridge, same as overwrapping will mark the tailpiece. Chewing through the chrome/nickel/gold plating in your hardware makes it possible for rust to start getting into the hardware in these places. Also, it's a pointy edge pressing into your strings, bending them (and even pressing the strings down to the frets) pulls them and thus moves them and/or changes the tension where the bridge edge gnaws into the strings. You're increasing risk of string breakage.
Also another contact point that potentially "catches" the string, like a string tree behing the nut on Fenders. Meaning potential failure point that makes the guitar not return to its tuning after bending.
You will end up with tuning problems as well as intonation problems as the guitar string moves tension between the two points of contact while you play.
You have to think of this as a pulley or lever. How do you maximize your leverage and pull or otherwise move an object heavier than you would normally be able to? You find a fixed point somewhere in-between, and you lay a lever across that point, preferably on a rock or concrete, or something that can take that pressure. The amount of pressure then applied to that point is rather huge, as the lever is redistributing the weight of the object you are moving. Think of the string as the lever in this case. It's now exerting many times the normal tension on the point where it is touching the back of the bridge. That's eventually going to dig a little notch, killing the finish, and possibly catching and breaking strings and causing difficulties with tuning.
Great informational video Dave. All stuff I had learned from you long ago , but very entertaining!
I'm still wondering if we'll ever hear from Larry about the Pup Height guage. Any info on your side? I really want one. Unless there two separate ones. Then I want one of each LOL!
Thanks again for doin' what you do Brother. Don't go crazy!
PEACE from Southwest Michigan,
🐉💀👽🎸🎶🎵🌎🌌🧠👍
Look at Joe Bonamassa's LP's, everyone he has is top wrapped. He says it makes for a slinkyness and easy bending, but he uses 11's on stage. But that's his personnel preference and everyone else's that does it. I don't wrap and thats my preference.
Overwrapping the tailpiece reduces the down force of the string at the saddle(or break angle over the saddle). IMHO), That IS tension. And there is less of an angle, and therefore less tension or break angle, from the fixed point at the peak of the saddle back to the tailpiece. I'm no physicist, but that's MHO.
Mike Baker I top wrapped mine, too, for the first time recently, and, somewhat surprisingly to me, it definitely made a difference.
You're conflating tension with downward force on the bridge. Downward force can be increased by increasing the break angle. At the same tuning pitch, break angle does NOT affect string tension. In regards to Dave's comments, obviously strings have elasticity, and DO stretch. If they didn't, bending notes would be impossible. When they DON'T return to pitch after a note bend, it's because either A) you've exceeded the strings elasticity and have permanently stretched the string, or B) the string is binding in the nut or bridge slots. Very simple. Think about this logically; If strings did NOT slide over the nut & bridge, it would be impossible to bring the strings up to pitch using the tuners. Once up settled in at pitch, however, sliding movement across the bridge saddles is negligible on a LP because of the short afterlength. (It's a more significant issue on guitars with long tailpiece afterlengths, like Jazzmasters.) On a LP, almost all of that sliding is going to occur at the nut, where the afterlength is much greater. This is why strings 3 & 4 are more problematic at returning to pitch, they have the most potential for movement due to the longer afterlengths. And yes, top-wrapping is stupid. (Because you can achieve the same resulting shallow break angle by simply raising the stopbar posts. It's why they're adjustable.)
Eh it puts wear on top of the finish of the stop piece and looks like shit 🤷 and does nothing for the sound or playability IMHO ..
I like Dave and I think he's right most of the time, but there are times when he says things that are just not true. My honest opinion about the overwrap is that on some guitars it can actually work very well. I tested it on my Les Paul and it didn't make much of a difference so I went back to the standard technique. When tested it on my ES-335 it made an astounding difference in the tension (strings felt slightly looser which was great) and I got less breakage (also great because I tend to bend my strings a lot). So I'm sticking with over-wrap on the ES and I don't use it on my Les Paul. In my humble opinion I think it's a good idea to test it both ways on any Gibdon you own and just use whatever works best on your particular guitar.
Joe my main reason for not over wrapping is I’m a collector as well as a player and I don’t want to add wear to parts of my guitars Because of aesthetic’s .
I can't wrap my stop tailpieces. Put TP-6's on two of my Les Pauls and a Bigsby on the third!
I can explain the different feel of the strings up to a point and you decide if you see it as BS and which particular point doesn't make sense to you. We distribute the increase of tension all along the length of the bent string, like to every link in a chain, mostly on the core of the string. We distribute that tension to three sections of the string in that configuration: The bit from the tuners to the nut, the bit between nut and the bridge saddles and the bit from the bridge to the ball ends. The steeper the break angle from the nut to the headstock and the more angle there is behind the bridge the more defined are the "fixed points" where the waves bounce back moving up and down the string. The steeper those two angles are, the more reluctant they are to change the tension in the outer sections to a certain degree until they have to. The way how the string reacts to the change of tension is slightly different while we end up with the same result. You can call it slightly altered longitudinal bending stiffness if you want it fancy. And some apparently argue that they can feel it, and as you know humans are good feeling with their fingertips. Every bump, every change in a surface and also changes in applied pressure or the way the curve feels while increase tension. Question is: Is it significant? Can we put 20 people to a double blind test if they can feel a difference only in the bending hand? For me, the wraparound is a last ditch effort to fix the problem with a too steep angle cause someone in the factory messed up. But initially it was just cheaper to sell the Les Paul Juniors that way. What the wraparound bridges with only adjustment at the posts do to intonation is another thing. I see it as a trend, some may feel it, others look for new mojo.
Do you see more or less lifted/shifted posts with or without wraparound?
Another approach to a lot of mojo:
Guitar tech of a famous guitar player sees a problem part of the fix is visible, but something else (let's say pickup height) was slightly changed. The player loves his guitar and all his friends want to sound like him, so the visible change has to be on their guitar to believe in the change. The more something costs the more we also want to see and hear a difference based on our purchase, cause "didn't change a thing" would make us feel bad about the money we spent. Look! One of the bridge screws is missing...did he loose one or did he remove it to alter his tone? We don't have those tubes anymore but a boatload of those over there...5 minütes latör...discover the new XYZ sound, years of research brought us to this point!
Hope you and the family are doing well Dave! treat people the way you want to be treated,Cheers hoping for the world to go back to normal but more peaceful,lol
Lol. The shirt is back!
Dave, with needing the 2 fixed points, is it OK to have a roller bridge as long as the stop bar is the whole way down with no contact on the bridge?
awesome !!!!
yeah, if the stop-piece is up too high and the strings are going level over the saddles.. the note does not ring well... and the string can pop out of the saddle groove, too.. all kinds of trouble :)
Thank you for the lesson.
Please advise what could be done if there is fret buzz after the 12 fret?
frets need leveling
Is it not worth putting my electrics in a humidifier room in the winter? Should I just let them be? Since every time I take em out of said room or my house the temperature and humidity will drop dramatically in relation to the room? The humidity in the winter can go down to 20 along with the weather easily so I thought I might start putting in the extra care but then I wonder if it’s useful since no other setting would be that well contained .
I also can’t find a tech who will set up this used sg I bought to not buzz. One didn’t bother to look at the guitar and the other told me today “ we don’t set up electric guitars for acoustic playing “ since I showed him the buzzing without the amp on... it buzzes on open and fretted notes and I payed him 180 for a new nut and re crowning frets and it did nothing for all the buzzing
Regards the top wrap, there are many reason they do it, but one reason was the neck angle was kinda hit and miss, so the strings would be touching the bridge and the tail stop woul have to be raised very high to stop this, I've seen a few cases when nearly 5/8 was the gap between the stop piece and body, enter the top wrap which also reduces the break angle which is always a good thing on any guitar, nothing wrong with top wrapping in my opinion and many famous guitarist use this method, for many reasons, I understand both sides of the argument but both methods are ok to me, I just explain why top wrapping came about if I'm asked to set one up that way, and how it will Marr the tail stop finish.
steel has elasticity. when you bend a string it does actually stretch and it is measurable.
the string is fixed at the nut and saddle, yes. it doesn't or shouldn't drag over the saddle and sadly it does slide through the nut a bit
if you were to measure the length of a string from nut to saddle (shortest distance between 2 points) and then while bending the string , measure from nut to finger and from finger to saddle there will be a longer distance.so you do stretch the string , it just happens to spring back in place when you let go. the same thing happens every time you fret a note, to a smaller degree. this additional length is greater than the slippage through the nut**
and top wrapping is the best way to string a les paul because Jimmy Page lol
p.S love your videos Dave!!
It's funny. I've looked at tons of live shots of Page's paul and I've never seen it top wrapped. I know his tele was a top loader maybe that's what everyone's talking about.
Can you recommend an expert in the Nashville area? I have two less balls been in storage for some years?
Oi Dave - I always thought it was best to have the pickup setting on the bridge on as opposed to using the front pickup for tuning. Does it make a difference. Love your shows!
These things are like '57 Chevy's...
Nice. Well built... Gonna last!
But cumbersome, larger than most,
And actually sorta "stiff" for my tastes anyways,
I could never express myself to the max with a Les Paul, for these reasons...
When I was a young kid and had my first Les Paul it was before the internet days I top wrapped only because I didn’t know what I was doing. And I did not have a book yet either. Next string change I notice the strings were digging into the tail piece. I was looking at it and realized oh I thread them in from the back. I bet a lot of this top wrapping was just an error like mine and grew into urban legend when someone purchased a Les Paul wrapped wrong from someone else. Lol. Or also could be someone used to the older Gibson style one piece wrap around tailpieces. And continued to thread them that way on the new two piece style.
great video.. the tailpiece must be symmetrical to the wood or it can have one side higher than the other?
Both!
You want the stop bar down on the deck...increased tone and sustain. The only reason to overwrap the string is when the stop bar is down and the string hits the back of the bridge. Overwrap and the string does not rest on the back of the bridge with the stop bar all the way down on the deck. Thats the idea anyway....
Yo Dave what’s with the grease stain on your guitar bench? You takin’ pizza breaks??
How much lean should the bridge have and what side (bass or trebble strings) should angle down or up? my saddle is perfectly level and Iv'e been told not to do that?
My Gibson Lespaul is intinated perfect with new strings stretched in abd tuned as best as I can get them but it still sounds out of tune?
I have an Epiphone Black Les Paul Custom that is currently having brand new Seymour Duncan P90's put in, in place of the fairly crappy humbuckers that it came stock with about 20 years ago. Here's my question: there's a fairly deep V shaped ding in the third fret in-between the G and B string... I know better than to file it out cause it will make the one fret lower than all the rest, but I can't afford to have the whole fingerboard refretted, and I'm told you can't just have one fret replaced (though it seems like that is something that could conceivably be done, if the new fret was levelled to match the others), so IS THERE A WAY TO FILL THE DING in the fret that's damaged? This sounds impossible to me, but still seems like a question worth asking. I know soldering won't work because it's way too soft a metal and there's no way to shape it! Does ANYONE know of a fix for this problem that I obviously don't know about? ANYBODY... please throw me an answer, even if it's just to say I'm screwed!!!