So true. The worst about plat is the unwillingness to switch when they are being hard countered. Especially genjis who are doing garbage the entire game but get one good nanoblade and think they are the best players in the game. I finally got to diamond the actions seem more purposfull still a lot of only dps players in open queue which is really frustrating. I have been silver to diamond been stuck in low Plat the longest lemme tell you every rank is garbage. Just a shit game but so addicting.
Plat is really bad. Like I'm not a plat player, but back when I was, it was pure cancer. Plat for me is the rank where people are good enough so you can't solo carry, but bad enough to lose games.
Platinum in any game is probably the roughest imo. But I would say that if you make plat in any game you are good at the game(imo). You can get away with making a mistake in this rank, however, once you get to Diamond and above those mistakes can be devastating as efficiency and momentum become more detrimental the higher you go up. Tactical awareness and team cohesion begin to be really important here if you want to climb imo. I realized sometimes yes you have an “off tank one trick” and that they won’t change but I thought to myself “what can I do to enable them to play the best and possibly help us win. It’s worked for me a handful of times.
Fox McFly that’s literally the point... “if he knows what he’s doing” essentially means “if he is playing well, and is getting picks so I won’t complain”
as someone who previously was very competetive but also very emotionally dependent on his success in ranked i wanna say this: lately, i kinda have figured out how to not be affected by my game to game success and if my team is throwing or not. now my approach has become just doing the best that i can. this includes schotcalling, mostly playing offtank, being very hard to tilt most of the times and also being lighthearted about the game when it really is fun and my team is doing great. this has allowed me to get like 200-300 sr higher average, from 3k (half my time in high plat and half my time in low diamond) to now being 3.1 to 3.3 k. i now have more fun with the game, i care less about if my team is playing perfect overwatch and more about if i understand how i can maximize my impact. this has taken me years of playing teambased competetive games though. i can understand everybody that struggles with that especially in high plat. what i dont really get behind is the whole "playing for fun vs playing for the win" type of deal. for me, success and winning is fun, therefor i wanna understand the game. understand how i can maximize my decisionmaking and impact. that problem solving process is the fun. other people in low elo wanna climb but they dont wanna learn. they basically want success without being better than their rank. and that cant work. because no matter if you want to be better at the game or not, your skill level determines your mmr. and if you dont think your current elo suits your skill level, then you gotta prove it. the reality is: if you are in gold, and you cant climb, you gotta ask yourself the question: is the game fun for me here in gold? if not, then you should either not play the game or try everything to climb and see if the experience gets better or if you yourself are the real reason of why the game isnt fun for you. and if thats the case then you should work on your mindset. if you dont want that then you better be happy with your rank.
I'm down in gold but thats my perspective also. I use to play high level cod but the way I took it was way to over the top. I was not playing to have fun, I was playing to win and I tied fun directly to that. Sometimes i can lose a game that was actually fun and be ok with it. Its fun to win but if that's the only way I can have fun then I'm missing the point of playing games.
Ended up having to do a mix. I somehow got plat tank even though it’s my worst role imo but climbed well on support and in open queue (used to be 1600 on my old set up before role lock); I deranked from near plat dps to low silver. For dps, it’s coin flip games. I either have gg go next games (the team that afks in choke, overall decent comp but a Hog afks in front of all of their team and they rotate 4-5 ults per fight, throwers/leavers, etc), or I get decent games (Bronze winstons that actually hit the go button so I lock Tracer and play with them, a dps/support I can play well with, or a team that in general plays well). It just got so stressful with swapping from “just do my job and play with the team” to “if I don’t go 1v6, we’ll literally get nothing done and lose” that I gave up on dps in role lock. Once I solidified in plat, Tank/support/open queue have honestly had 7-8 of 10 games being really good, with 1 go next and 1 loss that overall wasn’t terrible. It can still be a bit stressful having to constantly be on guard and play near 100%, but I have fun even with losses/ games that don’t go as well as I’d like.
Damn that’s some straight up facts DatVocals! I did the same strategy as you and I was able to get out of gold for after 9 seasons since I had to enjoy what I was playing and if not, I would take a break.
I used to be t500 player but then I took break I was down in diamond and I was getting tilted so I decided to play for fun and now I'm masters nearly gm
i feel like the game is at its most fun when your team is working together, win or lose, thats why it can be frustrating when someones throwing or not commincating or just bad
my experience with low ranks: people getting mad and tilted when not winning or getting carried enough. I don't meet people who play for fun I meet people who are too tilted to climb. And that makes it less fun for me to play, because I just find it hard to have fun with there's negative energy everywhere..
The short answer is no the long answer is no because if you get hard countered your hard throwing if you keap playing that hereo or if you switch cause you can play any other hero. So one tricking is bad
@@dmodk8010 Meh. One tricking is only an issue if you make the ASSUMPTION that they're standing in your way of climbing out of your rank. Which, quite frankly, is nothing but an assumption. Statistically, you'd end up playing against just as many "throwing" one tricks. Meaning, you don't lose anything by it.
WolfRites this is true one tricks are easy sr if you know there a one trick. One tricks are very anoying where let’s say your running dive but you get that one asshole who runs hog you have to change the whole comp so your not farmed
I’m glad everyone is so positive and considerate, but sometimes you just want to ask that hard countered onetrick “are you really having fun if you’ve spent more time in the spawn screen than the game?” Lol. Great video as always SVB. Always a pleasure to watch.
One thing I never understood is if you want to just chill and have fun, lets say after a rough 10 hour shift at work you just want to unwind and enjoy a game or two of OW, why not just play quickplay or arcade? Why go into comp and deal with people who arent in the same state of mind as you, people who are trying hard to rank up, people who will be toxic at you for not being as serious as them? Why put yourself and teammates through all that if you truly just want to have fun? In my opinion, people don't just want to have fun, they want the validation and excitement from being in a somewhat serious environment and ranking up in addition to having fun, but to truly get the most out of that I think it's best to be a little more serious in comp or otherwise just play quickplay? I don't know, curious on everyone's thoughts.
I am 110 percent with you! It isn't fair to players who are trying to go all out when a player is just trying to have fun. Fun is for quickplay/arcade.
Because my idea of fun does not fit quickplay, I just don't want people yelling at me for reasons they think are valid but often end up being what they'll describe others doing to them in bad faith
For me you A get longer games for your queue time with ranked and B you get gold gun money. This is why I’d play competitive without the ‘I’m gonna win’ mindset
What's so weird to me is the idea of people playing competitive just for fun. I have so little time in comp because I only play this game for fun and my mindset has always been "you're just a casual, you don't need a golden gun, nobody would even want to queue into a game with a hog one-trick anyway." I'm not saying I'll play comp more, but I must say this revelation has really given me something to think about.
Maybe there should be silver guns for people who have comp points left or introduce QP point. Make them cheaper, but also somewhat rare and rewarding to get. Also I would really, really like questlike/achievement like rewards for playing a character a lot. Stuff like a skin for Ana when you've slept 100 Blading Genji's. I dunno, CoD has that and it looks like a fun way to motivate getting better.
Dextriathlon honestly I think all of that is a really cool and good idea! Having unique achievement/mastery level weapon or hero achievement skins would feel so rewarding and when you que into comp would indicate to your teammates it’s a hero you know a thing or two about them. Really cool concept you have tbh
Since role queue it feels like 55% people who queue tank in ranked are hog one-tricks. And yeah, most people in, say, plat, play comp just for fun. It's way more competitive than QP, and most people want to win, but very few actually do everything they can to improve (like VoD review, practice, warming up...)
I play competitive for fun, even if it gets frustrating I stay chill, when i win it’s fun but if I lose I don’t mind it too much. I always do my best but I don’t lose my mind over one lose.
Papa Rat ayy, fellow Hog 1 trick, I can kinda agree but sometimes I feel like proving myself, no problem in barely playing comp though, I rarely play it aswell, though I’ve gone from gold to diamond (3.4k) 1 tricking hog Idk what my point is just neat to see a fellow hog 1 trick
This is a step in the right direction, but we DEFINITELY need a console / PC debate (from a wide variety of ranks). Discuss topics like Pharah, smurfs, Blizzard not responding to reports on console, etc.
Meh people will realize that the game is mostly the same despite the differences. But maybe people from both console and PC need to see that they're playing the same game.
Grouping up is the biggest problem. U feel like u can't learn shit if there's no teamfight, and there's no teamfights in quickplay, or in the first 3 ranks to a degree (mainly because of a self fulfilling prophecy of oh we lost bc we have no shield tank and Ana let me just run out of spawn and try to shoot something in the face before I drop) For this reason u will see that players playing heros that can duel tend to group up less where heros like most supports and main tanks will wait for the team more. They can't have fun unless there is a fight. If quickplay actually resembled a decent game of overwatch I would go there for my one tricking shenanigans, but until then every now and then my team will have to deal with the guy who's not in voice trying to force a hero by using crazy plays and positioning
Ah man I always see support players peeking angles while everyone else is resetting, and then they get picked off by an enemy Hanzo or Widow so we all have to wait another 10 seconds - which half the team won't do so it becomes an instant stagger fight from the beginning.. The amount of times I've seen supports miles ahead of our tank players is astonishing. It's literally a 50/50 whether they get out alive or not. Then again, as you say that's the nature of quickplay, you are only guaranteed one full team fight, and that's the first fight at the beginning of the round..
@@Real_MisterSir this, so much this. And then you stay staggered the rest of the game and lose, because grouping up in the bottom three ranks is like herding cats on a good day
As someone who's climbed from Silver to GM, Plat is the worst rank in the game. For one, up until plat you can play Battle Mercy and get out if you're good. You don't need your team at all to play in the metal ranks, if you yourself are better than that rank you will absolutely climb. Plat is the first rank where team cohesion, ult synergy, team comp, etc actually matters. It's also above gold, and since gold is the average, Plat means you're better than the average player. What this means is that people start to care about their rank way more than in the previous ranks. However, a lot of these players came out of Gold blaming everyone else for their own mistakes, and that doesn't change. They're high enough sr that they think they're good, but in actuality they suck. What that means is you get a hyper toxic environment, in the first rank where you need to start playing with your team and can't just solo carry on Doomfist because you got mad and threw a hissy fit the girl on your team wasn't playing Mercy.
I am a Mercy one trick on 3.8k rn and I can carry Plat games but in Diamond I am really struggling to carry and win games. Maybe it's just because diamond is closer to my rank... And I really don't think that you are Top500 because I have never seen any master+ player struggling in Diamond on his main role.
If you just play 50% of your best you can climb out plat as a gm. I think actually think you are a mad Plat hard stuck. Every thing you wrote agrees with that
@@malte_2 Dunno how you came to the conclusion that I'm hard stuck plat from what I wrote. I've played this game for 4 years since Beta. The first year I played I was stuck in silver. (I had a super crappy computer and graphics card, was literally playing on 25 fps, and I also blamed my team every game and always thought I was doing everything perfectly) After I replaced my crappy hardware and got out of the mindset of "I'm perfect no one can beat me" I immediately started climbing. Climbed from 1600 to 1900 in the last week of the season. Then I immediately placed 2200, and in about 2 weeks I climbed to 2600. Then I got stuck there for another 2 years. Silver and Gold are so chill compared to plat. There was barely anyone blaming anyone, very few people talked on vc (or were even in vc to begin with) and there was almost no toxicity. I saw about 300-400 girls in those ranks, and not a single time did anyone do the classic "omg a girl why aren't you playing mercy" thing. I genuinely thought that sexism was not a problem in Overwatch, because of how long I'd played without ever seeing it. Then I hit plat. Quite literally, every game was filled with people smurfing, people doing bad accusing other people of smurfing, girls being targeted just for being a girl and not playing mercy, all the things I listed in my og comment. I was stuck there for a year, slowly but surely climbing, but going into the 4th year of Overwatch I genuinely didn't think I'd ever get out of plat. Then at the beginning of the season I went on a massive winstreak and got to 2900, and started getting placed into diamond games, Consistently, the diamond people were the ones being chill, helping people improve, and the plats continued their behavior. I got out of plat and got to diamond, and kept on climbing, and at the end of season 22, I was 3800. Placed into gm at the start of season 23 and been there ever since. Plat was absolutely, 100%, the worst rank and experience I've ever had the displeasure of experiencing. I'm not hard stuck plat.
As a main tank player who was masters and had to deal with hog Zarya meta dropping me into high diamond like the higher you climb the less viable it is to be not be able to flex enough within your own role
I feel like that's a pretty empty conversation. The game is mostly the same except the input method and like refresh rate etc... It's well known there's a bias toward heroes like Pharah and Tracer, and away from Widow/Ash/Ana and such. So balance is a bit different but, not much else to discuss really.
I tried to help my friend out of Bronze, just to silver so she could play with her friends. But as a diamond DPS... I struggled a lot of matches! I lost way more than expected because I could kill 4 and our team would still just walk face first at a junkrat and die. The only aggression was towards the point, then they site there and wait for the enemy team to get high ground. And if the enemy team picks double sheild bastion... You could be top 500 and still lose as you team will never coordinate to attack it
I'm in gold and tried my best to hard carry bronze games, killing 3-4 players. Making it a 5v2 or 3, yet my team would still lose then blame me for picking a weak dps (Tracer)
@@rebornjoker359 honestly, until you get to high silver/ low gold. Winning is a random number generator some maps 😂 Skill can only outweigh so much feeding
@@theshontman depends of the role... a mercy cant carry as a dps or a offtank like zarya... on these ranks when i create a smurf i always play soldier or tracer
@@SoeZ- I play as soldier as you need the self healing in bronze, but even the best soldier can't break a double sheild, mercy bastion... I tried Genji and yes, the bastion kills himself with deflect, but usually there is little healing to sustain you from the rein and Orisa whaling on you also. It's not impossible, Zarya/ hog are some of the best to climb, but if there is an iota of coordination in a bunker and your team doesn't have that. It's stupidly hard
@@theshontman soldier you must play as tracer, killing in the backline... in gold works xd... its not hard omg. Double shield? That meta was a few months, now is not good... My winrate on these rank was 95% xd... in the other team there are dumb people too.
Platinum: Where people waste their ult 1v6, gets dicked on then blames their team. Where people throw and blame their team after 1 lost team fight. Where people flame healers because reasons. Platinum turns the team game into the blame game.
@@Apocalypse754 people who dont know how good they are tend to overestimate how good they are, people who are good tend to underestimate themselves. It's a blame game, Bad players blame teammates while good players blame themselves. Sometimes they're right, most of the time they're wrong
samu 6 true but mostly plat and gold I play in plat for tank and silver for dps and support the atmosphere is much more different there is far more flaming plat than silver and in silver someone will most likely go on comms to calm everyone down
A year ago I wanted to test how high I could climb One Tricking Pharah. Made a new account, won all placements, placed diamond. I struggled in diamond for a month or two trying to figure out what exactly I could do to get value. I decided to go to every map and find places to position myself where I could do my job and avoid hitscans until I get close. Games were way easier then until I finally hit Masters. This was a wall I struggled against many widows and mccrees (machine gun buff mccree). I realized I needed to make my positioning the best it can possibly be in order to win these games. 3 months later I finally hit 4040 (low gm). I now have more respect for One Tricks knowing that they took the time to actually figure out their character beyond what most people would know. I’m not the best Pharah in the world I’m not gonna claim that but now I feel like I can do so much in a game without really being pressured.
@@50733Blabla1337 I mean I still remember a year ago when Blizzard said I didn't join a game that it just didn't put me in and I lost 100 SR when I was a game from GM, but like that's different.
@@50733Blabla1337 Lmfao, yea I lost 50 from the leaver penalty but I ended up dropping 100 sr. It's memorable because it was the most painful 100 sr to lose. Still joke about it with my friends.
that's a ride range... Hawaii roll for ham and roast pork, French baguette for some lunch meats, hard crusty Italian bread for some gravy ("sauce" to others)... there's factors to consider 🤣
The main problem I have with the way blizzard balances is that when they decide to nerf heroes, they get nerfed into the ground making them completely useless and unfun to play.
I dont think "fun vs winning", one tricking, smurfing etc philosophy arguments is something blizz can fix. They need to allow third party matchmaking with smaller moderated communities that force you to play to win, like faceit or esea, and then let ladder be the sort of moral grey area because you just can't moderate such a big playerbase with such vague rules and still please people. Either that or they need to implement some sort of premade tournament system ingame to cater toward crowds that really want to tryhard and win. Biggest problem I see with ranked is that overwatch is a frustrating game to improve on by yourself. The devs recently talked about wanting to make losing more fun. Thats a good focus. Giving people tools to see how theyre actually falling short or what they can improve on, making losses feel less like youre being robbed by your team etc are something the game needs.
I do agree with your first paragraph; but I personally highly doubt the "effectiveness" of the second paragraph. I say this because of the Replay System that they've implemented. It's a GREAT system that really helps you with identifying certain issues you might be doing. But the amount of players who genuinely use it to actually improve is miniscule. Likewise with the Custom Game Modes with all of the neat little community games that people made to help you improve at key things too (double booping on Wrecking Ball; reliably landing Hooks on Roadhog, improving your Ana Sleep Darts on Dragonblading Genjis, etc). Those sort of things are almost always "glanced over" by the community or are really unknown to many people because not much attention is brought to them at all. P.S. -- I would really like a tournament system similar to CoD: MW's personally. I think that's a great system that could also be very useful for a lot of community tournaments and leagues that people organize.
@@rohanmorris8530 Replay system doesn't actually help you at all unless you already know what to look for. It's a pretty time consuming and inconvenient process to go through. Replay system is nice but systems like that aren't what I got the impression Geoff Goodman was talking about when he referenced ways to make losing more fun. I got the imrpession that he was talking about more objective milestones and markers you can achieve and track from game to game. Stuff you can do independently of actually winning a match. I won't bother giving any examples cause we really don't know what they have in mind but there's room for imagination
@@crowdozer3592 I beg to differ. The easiest way to use the Replay System is to just find all of the moments you die in a game and rewatch the moments just before that led up to you dying. Understanding those moments will improve your survivability a lot just from doing that process which is something I do after every 5 games; and each time, it takes about 5 - 10 minutes (unless I died a lot in a game). You do it enough times, you'll even be able to identify the reason why you died in the midst of the game itself and won't have to review it in the Replay System. Following that, if you've generally a logical mind and thinking-pattern, you'd start looking at team-fights you've lost and analyzing why you lost them.
@@rohanmorris8530 I think you misunderstood me, in all of what you just said, it still fits what I meant... You go into the replays knowing what to look for and how to use them, as someone willing to invest that time Replay system doesn't really fit in line with making ow more fun for what I'm betting blizz considers the "average" person (to roughly quote Jeff) who is just "relaxing and playing ranked" but it's great for people who take it really serious Not trying to go off on a tangent about how to use the replay system or whether or not it's useful
@@crowdozer3592 Now I'm confused. If you're speaking about "not knowing what to look for in the Replay System", then I still beg to differ for reasons stated above. Namely because - how hard is it to tell yourself, "I want to improve at the game. Let me look at where I died and prevent that from happening so often"? Can't be that hard to piece together. If you're speaking about who actually goes out of their way to use these type of tools - then I already addressed that in my first comment; meaning, I'm confused then about why you don't think the Replay System is a good system.
KrieteFred I went from masters console to high diamond low masters pc and it’s literally the same. Had to climb from gold when I placed on pc and the only difference between console and pc is instead of kB/m abusers it’s cheaters instead. That’s it, only difference.
I’ve played in bronze to up to 3.9 and from personal experience I think 3.3ish is the sweet spot to have fun. Ppl know the game well enough while also being chill enough.
@@Evan-ve5yj I dont think you know how much a gm/t500 on mainrole would dominate diamond, so no there arent that many low-mid master? meh quite a few low gm smurfs but t500 ppl smurf in gm mainrole and could legit be master offrole depending on their experience and playstyle.
@dave l 10-20% of games will have a hitscan smurf at that rank who are at least gm. I played at high diamond for a long time, and yes they do have a lot of impact on the game, that’s my whole point
i think, a great amount of satisfaction in games like overwatch (teambased class based) comes from understanding the game, being really good at certain heroes or aspects of the game and then the desire for clean play. this allows you to connect deeper than the average player with the interactions between players in the game. i found that the more i understood about what im good at in the game, the more i understood about what is a good or clean play, the more my love for the game itself grows and the more i appreciate those moments when they happen in ranked. cause you cant expect anything but you can look for those gems and be ready to abuse them to win games. notice that all that i described completely misses any mention of what mistakes my teammates do or wiether or not the matchmaking was fair. because thats just noise. and i play overwatch to impact the game towards those good moments weither i shotcall to make em happen more likely, if i make a play myself or if i am happy for my teammates when they make a good play. thats all the positive things. i reinforce those good moments so that the bad ones just dont matter that much anymore.
1:38:40 To mend part of the smurfing issue: Maybe introduce a system which dampens the impact of losing when it detects an enemy with a high W/L ratio or a teammate with a low W/L ratio within the past 10 competitive matches or something. I've been playing with this idea for a while and can't think of any ways to abuse it.
That idea banks on a lot of arbitrary assumptions. I played between 4200-4500, been on huge win and loss streaks, and 100% believe w/l is an unrealistic factor. "Oh no i met somebody with a 70% win rate i better only lose 5 sr" isn't fair. It needs to be based on legitimate statistics. A widow with a 15% acc over 10 games is one thing, but top players can go on 10-20 game loss streaks, it just isn't mathematically possible without punishing real players
Other discussion ideas - Discussion on PC vs Console - Discussion on having stacks in rank vs solo vs having a separate team queue - Relatively similar to the last one so could lump this together but a discussion on playing in ranked vs playing on a team Keep up the great work SVB! Love the content!
Way too many ads to keep it playing like a podcast. There's one every 3-4 minutes and really gets in the way of the conversation instead of being a mild distraction. I don't use adblocker cus I get creators need to make money too but man did this make me want to use one.
Unfortunately I agree. SVB's gotta make money so some ads are nessary but this video was skew'ed too far in the direction of ads. I love SVB's content and I didn't even make it through this whole episode.
Sorry about that - TH-cam automatically puts ads in when you upload the video. I've manually changed them now to be spaced out a lot more, similar to what you would get if you were watching a TV show on cable :)
Yeah, I have 13 here and each have 2 ads, so, 26 ads and some of it interrupts someone talking, so it’s kinda annoying :c I understand they are needed and usually don’t skip them, but for the sake of my adhd, don’t insert them just randomly, YT 😅
This is probably just me but I only grinded up the ladder to get better end of season CP rewards for gold guns. If they gave you CP whether you won or lost, like in rocket league, I would have 100 times more fun than I ever did before I got burnt out
Luke Mchugh What I’m saying is that it literally does not matter. Gold guns don’t really matter. They’re just cute to have. Therefore points to get said gold guns don’t really matter either.
love that SINotFound was in this video, he really gives a realistic perspective on what its like to play in plat, and specifically for Cary, playing support in plat.
it is an impossible task to make rank perfect for everyone. thats just the nature of online matchmaking and elo systems. i think what bothers me the most is that people dont understand the elo system in its core. the system exists so that not everybody can reach the highest rank. it is by nature a certain bell distribution and yet people act like they somehow are entitled to climbing when they just play the game for long enough. and i think this is where people disregard a competetive multiplayer pvp game for what it is: its a sport. its like chess in a lot of ways. not everybody is supposed to be gm. yet gold or even silber borders get bullied when they are "hardstuck in plat", for basically being bad or not learning hard enough. in videogames we have this expactations that eventually we are done. we will have played through the video game. but thats not what LoL, csgo, valorant or overwatch are like or about. its a sport and by nature, there will be some people that even though they have ambitions and dreams, they dont do everything they could to improve. and in a "normal" world, they would see that they would have to change that for themselves, the system cant give them what they think they are entitled to.
I also feel that people think they should just do placements and gain alot of Sr. Which isn't how it works. Also people don't want to put in time to climb, they lose one game and flame because of it. But to climb up a rank takes alot of time, for 500 sr you can easily be looking at 10 to 25 Sr an hour, which would mean you have to play 50 60 hours to get that next rank.
@@ryanharkness6303 10-25 per hour with an average winrate of 60% or so. thats 50 hours basically already smurfing. if you are only slightly better than your rank, which is the reality for most people because you learn at the pace of the elo you play in, then its more like 100-150 hours per rank.
@@FirebladeXXL I was going to say it could be more, as I know it's best case to say less. But ya it takes a long time, and alot of work for sure. I laugh at players that play like 30 games and say they can't climb. But thank you for adding that, I just leave it out as it tends to make people mad for some reason
@@ryanharkness6303 yeah it just came to my mind, because in reality, people that are in one elo have a unique set of habits mostly typical for their elo. so you have to learn the next best things first, to build solid fundamentals without skipping things and right away wanna copy the best players (in an extreme example). for example: silver supports need to go against the habit of healbotting bc tanks in their elo facetank so much and so uneccessarily long. so you basically have to gradually increase added value while also learning how to keep healing up as much as possible in between those other things.
This mentality is laughable at best. The way the system is designed, is for you to get better, win more games, win more SR through your hard-work and dedication to the game. If you put more hours in and focus on improving, you will climb. Now I'm not saying you specifically, but what I've found is most players in lower elos (bronze-plat) don't want to put the effort into improving. Because the way to improve isn't just playing overwatch. If you're a DPS player you should learn to play hitscan so you can counter pharah echo and widow. But you should also learn junk pharah and sym because they're all viable. It's not enough to just 'play' the game to improve. You need to play but you also have to work on bad habits you formed from not knowing how to play properly in the first place. This myth that its a bell curve and not everyone can hit GM isn't fact. Not everyone can be GM at the same time. But by working hard enough and improving yourself and playing the game more, you will eventually hit GM. But for every new GM, someone has to lose GM. Because that is how ladders work. If you're hardstuck in silver/gold/plat for multiple seasons (me) then its probably because you aren't working on improving YOUR gameplay, and you probably blame other people (me for the longest time)
23:56 I don't hate one tricking, but in role queue the carry/counter potential becomes isolated to the other person in the role which is what I hate. At least in open queue that potential is left available for the other five players. It'd be nice if there was an offer to swap role option in role queue in the case someone is not especially trained in a certain subtile or category.
When I go widow lol. It’s actually kinda funny because I don’t play Widow hardly at all unless I pretty much have to. During the pre role lock era it was a game on dorado and a sniper was just perched up giving us probs. I wasn’t even playing damage but I told the damage players if one switches to support I’ll go widow and battle this person. Annnnd they did it and we actually ended up winning the map! But it sucks having to try to single handedly counter something by yourself because someone won’t switch off a hero that is clearly put at a natural disadvantage.
Great discussion, really enjoyed this meaty chat. Pleased that the full sweep of ranks was represented. Would love a podcast episode on console Overwatch 🙂
One tricking is an interesting one. I agree most with Arrge - it is 1 out of 100 games that are lost because of a one-trick getting unlucky against another stronger counter, and usually (and I will say this straight into low diamond) it's actually lost because your team is screwing up at working together, or is toxic, or the other team is just better than them at coordinating. Guys, you are not losing a significant number of games to one-tricks - and even when you're talking about someone playing a suboptimal pick into a counter, you probably are experiencing confirmation bias. I've had matches where I've played say zen or ana into a sombra and they haven't bothered me, but the first time I die (even if the sombra has gotten ganked 4 or 5 times by me or by other stuff) people want me to swap. Why? There is literally no reason, you think I'm getting countered because you saw me die once, but actually I've been successfully fighting my backline fight this whole time while you were picking your nose and keeping her from bothering anybody else. I mean sure I could go brig maybe but I'm looking at the enemy Ashe and I'm like....I will get nothing done if I swap except make everyone feel better. Sometimes I do it, because y'know I like people to feel good, but I know I'm probably losing us the game doing it. Also I will always refer to prolikechro when it comes to the one-trick debate. If there are characters you are "allowed" to one-trick, like hitscan, like dva, like mercy, like reinhardt or like lucio, then it is a fundamental problem with the player base and maybe the balance of the game, that there are also characters you aren't "allowed" to one-trick. Most of the one-trick's that people hate can easily be legitimately strong characters, on a good position, but people just don't like to play with or against them because they perceive it as being cheesy or some other piece of garbage. It's all pride and stubbornness driving this whole debate rather than a legitimate problem, and in fact, role queue encourages tricking. It is how you win, that you have someone who specializes.
The hereos okay to 1 trick are hereo that can be used in most to all scenarios. Torb,bastion sym etc there good some times but playing them every second is not helping the team.
@@dmodk8010 I think you missed the point. We told people it was okay to 1 trick them, the system reinforced it, and it was a success strategy (1 tricking is always a success strategy - most 1 tricks are so good at their characters they maintain at least a 50 percent win rate). But then dva was garbage when double shield became a thing and people flamed the same people they lived to have on their team a couple weeks earlier and same same with all those heroes I listed. There's a problem with the game and a problem with the people in it, not with the people who trick a character.
Honestly, I miss the breaks between seasons. Those off-season games were genuinely paradise for someone who loves both the competitive mode, and playing for fun. There was nothing on the line, but the expectations and mode gave enough structure that you don't have as many people soft throwing like in QP, and you have cooperation and communication like a regular comp game. That is what I wish QP was like all the time, but instead it's somehow more tilting than comp because it seems like everyone is braindead.
For the sake of one tricking, I can't agree with SInotFound at all. In a team game where you queue up with complete strangers, you will never be able to control which heroes your allies and enemies are good at playing, regardless of whether they one trick/main or just generally flex - and you will never be able to control whether they will be proficient enough on their hero pools to counter their opponents on the other team. One tricking (or hard maining) can mean that player knows how to play their hero even when the odds supposedly are against them. One tricks will know their counters way better than anyone else, and learn how to play around them too, in ways that casual flex players never would be able to. Things such as "if you're playing Pharah and dying to hitscan then just learn another hero" -can turn into "If your pharah dies to hitscan then keep playing her and learn how to deal better with your natural counters". That's how I started out myself, coincidentally with Pharah, and I learned how to deal with every single counter she has - be it Widow, or a pocketed Ashe, or a super accurate McCree, etc. It has come to the point where I never fear an enemy, and because I hard mained Pharah for so long, I am also way above the average skill level on that hero. I am however also a massive flex player, purely from the fact that I enjoy playing multiple heroes. It originally started off by realizing that I wouldn't always be able to decide how many tanks and healers would be on my team (back before role queue), so I learned a few core healers and tanks just to have the flex potential for whenever I got into a game of 4dps players or more. However, I never did it for the sake of helping my team, I did it because I wanted to win. Going into solo queue ranked IS in itself a selfish endeavor no matter how you look at it, and that's exactly why I don't agree with SInotFound's point of view. You are still a solo player in a team environment, you get new team mates every game, you can't control anything but your own style of play, and you don't have to answer to anyone. Everyone you ever meet, allies or enemies, are ultimately your opposition on your climb. I would only see the selfishness nature gone, when you go into scrim environments where you queue as a group rather than a solo player.
Here’s what I think. One tricking is fine as long as your trying to win. I think flexing can be really good though. Like I main genji but if I’m getting crapped on I’m not going to continue to play him for that match. I’ve already seen the mistakes I’ve made no reason to int when you could swap. One tricks can be fine but having an understanding of all the heroes in case you have an off day would be great. You won’t learn by getting crapped on if you have a bad day you don’t push through it you learn from the mistakes but it probably won’t happen in that same day so I would switch. Just my bit though.
The problems with one tricks - some people never learn. They will just keep dying to their counters without learning how to play against them. There are reasons why word "hardstuck" exist and why people with multiple starts or even borders exist in lowest ranks. If you are onetrick and shit at the same time - you're basically throwing. I was Lucio main for awhile from silver to master (like 70% of my games i was on him). And after role lock, hero bans, brig/mercy meta - lucio is my 4th most playable hero (in last 2-3 seasons). Just because i switch when i think that im ain't doing shit for my team. Tho i know how to 1v1 every hero in the game, stop ults with beat, not dying etc. If i see that im 60% on beat but enemies are using nano blade - im useless and i have to switch. With that mentality i hit GM and still having fun in games. And now i know how to play multiple heroes on gm lvl (regardless of meta) instead of playing one hero on top500 or master level (depending on meta) Im not saying that my way is the only way to climb and get better. For example phara onetrick from Avoided (contenders team) was number 1 player in the eu. But im saying that very few players can actually improve. So in my eyes onetricking isn't something good untill you actually thinking about mistakes you're making
@@yellowtunes2756 -and that's just the nature of some people maxing out at a certain skill level. Doesn't really matter if they chose to flex or one trick, if you are not able to learn from your mistakes then you don't rank up, simple as that. The core here is that if you are good enough on your one trick hero to be at a certain sr level, then that is deserved. If you can't fight your counters and you can't learn, then you're simply not good enough to rank up anyways, so you stay at a level where you aren't throwing your games. It all comes back to the fact that at the end of the day, it's a team game but a solo environment, as long as you aren't scrimming or full team queueing. Everyone can do a lot of things to increase their abilities, but not everyone are willing to, and that's just the nature of how people play. Someone who flexes all the time may not be willing to learn much outside their core mechanics because they always default to easy counterpicking, and then when they get matched against a onetrick they don't know how to counter them because the one trick is far better at their matchup than the flex player is. The flex player could improve their individual hero skill, and the one trick could improve their flex potential. Just two sides of the same coin, and in the end whatever we chose decides where we exist on the ladder. Personally I am, as said, all for flex playing. I can safely play every hero in the game except maybe 3-4 characters to a mid/high Diamond level, and my main to well within Masters. But that's just me. There is a place for all kinds of players, as long as you don't actively try to throw games, and you are at your rightful skill rank, then I don't care who my team mates are. Learning how to play with different players' playstyles is just as much a skill, as mastering your own hero pool.
This was quite interesting. As someone who has friends in all ranks of varying approaches to the game, this debate definitely touched on most, if not all mindsets of the community. It's kind of funny hearing our gm friend freak out when playing with the rest of us plat-bronze players just trying our best.
As someone who started in bronze and I have legitimately improved in all aspects of the game, I would love to be able to wipe the slate clean and clear up all my shitty gameplay data. The game is genuinely confused on my MMR I think.
I started comp as soon as I could at level 20 which was a huge mistake. I jumped into comp before I even had any game sense. I stubbornly only kept playing without trying to actually learn. Like three years later I'm still in bronze because I developed super bad habits and my only game sense is based on bronze-level gameplay. I'm at a point now where I feel like I make genuine improvements to my gameplay like prioritizing defending my healers (I play tank) and joining comms every game to communicate we should stick together or to announce flanks etc. Despite this I feel directionless because I'm unsure if I'm making the wrong calls or because people dont listen or are still learning (which I think is valid at mid-high bronze). I try to have fun and I feel like my improvements are being recognized in my SR/MMR
@@jacobrudy-froese6543 Don't ever be afraid of doing the wrong thing or making a mistake. Just keep doing what you are doing and try to learn from the outcome be it good or bad. The game will give you feedback over time, but don't be worried about the short term. Ranked climb is a marathon not a sprint.
I’m generally okay being an average ranked player, but when my rank starts to slip and I feel like that my performance and ability are higher than what my rank reflects is when I get the most stressed and toxic. And having a DPS rank that can go back and forth from high silver to high bronze several times a season I do feel like the pool of players down there is a little broken and it can be hard to learn and grow from there.
I'd say for one-tricking it also really depends which hero it is. There are some heroes that are always going to be far more situational than others. If you're one-tricking Doomfist then you're going to get flamed all the time, because sometimes you're just going to feed. That's just how Doomfist is. Especially if he's countered well by the other team. If you're playing Torb and the other team knows to focus your turret down the instant you drop it, that's halfish of the value of your character that goes down the toilet. But who's ever going to flame you for one-tricking McCree? Unless your entire team is transported back to 2017 and they're playing dive, McCree is never a "bad" pick. There are characters that might be better like maybe you want an Ashe to counter PharMercy instead, but something like McCree or Ashe, as opposed to Torb, Sym, Doom, Junk, etc., are never going to be the worst character you could possibly pick.
Ye same for hanzo he argues on the bases of one of the most versatile dps in the game, while otps are a problem when its niche picks that are literally not supposed to be played in every situation like the heros you named.
My thoughts on one tricking is: Don't let it get to you. You'll always have one trickers, dcers, bad players, toxic players, 100 other things. A positive mindset, taking responsibility, always believing in the outcome, and focusing on improving your skill instead of winning will be what helps you climb. When you blame someone else for a loss/bad play/playstyle etc. You need to be careful because you can be simultaneously turning a blind eye at the 100 mistakes you made. One being the frustration itself that hurts your gameplay and maybe hurts your teams gameplay (tilt has a snowballing negative effect)
love the debate bro. i soo beautiful to hear all side of the levels. thank you for the education. i love all the spectrums of your debates. (im low bronze since "18"..btw). ....this was a wonderful debate. ty sooo much for all the information. GOO FLORIDA MAYHEM..HEE HHEEE
With the endorsement system, they could make it so players with a high endorsement level will go up in the queue while low endorsement players would get slower queue times, could be a massive way to fix the toxicity issue of Overwatch (but could be excluded for like the first 100 lvls or something so new players won’t get hit hard with bad queue times when they haven’t even gotten the chance to build up their endorsement level).
The concept of rank is based on knowledgeable and executable tactics. The more people you have that can mechanically perform the necessary mechanics for tactics to work. The higher the percentage of winning.
God I hate the “just for fun” argument. Play quick play if you want to play for fun, you have to look at it as you are preventing your teammates from playing for rank because you want to play for fun in the wrong mode. You run into those people in almost every rank (I’ve been Silver to GM) and it always pisses me off.
Honestly I feel the opposite but maybe that's why I'm stuck in Masters and can't get any higher. It's just a video game, don't be an *sshole, try your best and treat it as such. If you're not actually getting paid for it, it's not worth the emotional investment or treating it like a job. Regardless of what you do there's going to be some angry nerd that screams at you regardless of your pick. You have to go with what you enjoy and do your best to be nice to your teammates.
Will Wunsche again this is what quickplay is for, the entire concept of ranked is meaningless with the argument that it should just be for fun. You can not be overly invested emotionally but still be trying to grind for personal satisfaction. I enjoy overwatch and want to get better competitively, why does it make me an angry nerd to do so?
@@austinfigueroa4851 not saying your an angry nerd or that it's wrong to enjoy grinding and getting better I certainly do too. But besides that point in the own developer discussions and threads they talk about "competitive" as being currently intended as a game mode for people to come home and play to destress after a long day of work. I enjoy and love the much higher difficulty of higher ranked competitive but there's too many variables to take it seriously like a job. When I want to tryhard I play scrims and join tournaments, I've been on three different teams and played in GGNA. "Quickplay" isn't casual play it's _quick._ Current competitive mode is simply a slightly longer mode with a slightly altered ruleset. You're never going to get paid by it unless you start offering some kind of product(content) that can be used to pass advertisements, wether that be an OWL match as a pro player, a coaching session, or a streamer/TH-cam creator. Most of those recommend you be at least GM but of course that's not all encompassing.
If you are in my rank while trying very hard and i can stay in this rank while i just play for fun what difference does it make in the end? I’m still playing good enough to be in this rank with you honestly the matchmaking is pretty good in overwatch unless you deliberately try to sabotage it so if you are in that rank you probably deserve it and honestly i play best when i don’t care that much about the game and every time i have a chill team that has a good time together i win of course this doesn’t count if you think playing for fun means just throwing the game most people think it’s fun to win so they try to win and play good without being tryhard and do literally everything possible to win that’s what i call just for fun
@@willwunsche6940 if you're in Masters you're probably not who he's talking about. Even if you're "just having fun", you play with a level of self awareness. The issue is people who say they "want to have fun" and feed constantly. We all get steamrolled. That's not fun
Because you're not paying attention? Sleepy seems like on obvious, extreme example of exactly that. Dafran is on and off between tryharding and trolling. There are many more this is just a question of how intricate understanding of the game do you require and how you define fun, because for many people like xqc find having a collective in which to try your absolute best to win the game has been the most fun many gamers have ever had.
There seems to be a misconception that's been implied in the "Playing For Fun vs Playing To Win" discussion. Seemingly; peoople take "Playing To Win" entails getting angry; screaming into your mic, and slamming your desk when you lose which is mind-boggling to me; and I think that mainly stems from what's "become acceepted / the norm" in North America (not the servers, but the actual continent), Europe, etc. As a result of that, saying things like, "It's just a game" is somehow inherently "opposite" to this mentality which is further boggling to me and makes the misconception even more difficult to identify for most. Slamming the desk, screaming, throwing tantrums, etc -- while losing has nothing to do with "Playing Competitively" or "Playing to Win" or "Being Try-hard and Sweaty" -- That's just being a sore loser/child who generally has a difficulty with handling their emotions. If you look at professional athletes in any sport, you'd see that when they lose, they often use it as a means to try to do better next time and very rarely do they "throw tantrums"; even if they felt like they were robbed in the lost (Stoicism is actually very common in competitive sports for athletes and it's something you should honestly pick up if you're generally trying to do something competitively). Playing competitively is not "symonous" with having those types of reactions and promoting it as such just enforces the misconception. In a loss, you could just as easily use it as a means to do better by revising your own footage, finding some type of training program, or seeking aid/advice from someone else as well. It doesn't mean you have to be toxic and/or a screaming child throwing a tantrum or something. Conversely; saying things like, "It's just a game" is insulting to people who're genuinely trying hard at the thing. It doesn't matter what it means to you and how Carry (or Cari? I'm not sure on the spelling) claims that, "You're not going to remember the one game you lost last year to reach Diamond" is entirely false because some people do remember those things if it truly mattered (or was in a spectacular enough of a fashion). Saying such assinine things like that is akin to telling someone aspiring to be an artist, "It's just art" or a musician, "It's just music". It's basically shitting on all of their efforts and aspirations as to how far they've come and what they're trying to achieve. I'll also add that having "baseless optimism" is something that should be considered as even more troublesome than just being "toxic" simply because of the nature of it. It genuinely irks me when people say positive things like, "Don't worry, we got this" after getting roll in a fight because it's basically them trying to shirk away from addressing the issues that must exist for us to have just gotten rolled over in the fight. It's the most silly passive-aggressive thing a person can do that will cause you to losee the game 9 times out of 10 simply because they're too scared to sit down and discuss what went wrong in the last fight and how to improve it/correct it. Not only then do you most likely lose that game, but no one learns anything afterwards and goes into the next game to potentially repeat the SAME mistakes. Oh, and for what it's worth; I genuinely think Competitive should obviously be for the "Try-Hard" and "Sweaty" Players because, it's as the name implies -- "Competitive". If you're genuinely just looking for fun; go to Quickplay. I personally wish Blizzard had a harsher stance on this; and honestly, they should considering that your SR / Rank plays a part in their "Path to Pro" stuff, but they have yet to do so. Failing that, you'd think they would at least allow "truly competitive modes" or something for those of us who're - ironically - osctracized for playing a Competitive Mode... Competitively (through 3rd party systems or an in-game tournament mode or something) but that too, has yet to happen.
I agree with everything, I wish that competitive didnt have golden guns and that would most likely divide the playerbase to properly go quickplay vs competitive
I agree with most of what you said but I have to disagree slightly with the baseless optimism part. As someone who is guilty of doing exactly what you described it doesn't come from avoidance of addressing problems. It comes from trying to keep team morale in check. Too many people have the impression that getting rolled on round one means the game is over and essentially resort to throwing out of frustration. A little positivity can go a long way in terms of getting people to continue putting in the effort to win.
I don't really think blizzard should drive for competitive to be this exclusive af club of people with one specific "this is how the game is supposed to be played" -mentality as it would easily have god knows what side effects. But what I do think they should do is add a premade queue/tournament feature as it would shift all of the burden from them to players when it comes to figuring out who want's to play what kinda version/style of overwatch.
@@soapbiter36577 Theres nothing that says you can't give constructive criticism in a positive tone as opposed to baseless optimism. That would go a much longer way overall than the alternative. Saying things like, "I think if we can just manage our C/Ds better and focus their flankers as they come in, we got this. They're just relying on their Genji / Doomfist to get value so let's just play slower, wait for them to come to us, then rekt them" -- By saying that, you've done 3 things all at once: 1) Identified a problem 2) Given a solution 3) Encouraged the team to try it
@@markussavolainen This seems like some other misconception of "Try-Hard" Players. Very few of us genuinely think there's only "one way" the game is supposed to be played and considering that we exist at all ranks, it's safe to assume that we all experience "different metas". Rather; all we want is for people to approach the game with the same mentality of trying to win - that does not mean that we're going to try to force people onto a specific composition. That's just being silly; especially at the "Metal Ranks" where people don't even understand why certain compositions exist (e.g., lots of people in Platinum thinks the core focus of Orisa / Sigma is the two shields; not the C/Ds of Halt and Accretion). Truly competitive players also would focus first on themselves and improvement in general rather than how someone else is playing or their Hero. If you glance through some of these comments, I'm sure you'll find others who said they've found more success having the right mentality with how they approach the game than worrying/fussing themselves over what Heroes their teammates are playing -- It's pointless. Control and worry about the things you can affect; not the ones you can't. But that doesn't mean you want the others on your team to "half-ass" the game for the sake of their amusement. And once again; if the mode literally branded, "Competitive" isn't supposed to be... Well... Competitive; why even have other game-modes? You could as well strip away everything and have the one mode at that point if it's somehow not for the actual competitive playerbase.
Regardless of your rank you should put in you best effort in competitive. Some people don't have as high of a skill ceiling.. Doesn't mean they should have their games trolled or made careless in Competitive.
I've got considerable experience in the 1500 to 2400 range, and IMHO nothing even comes close to the misery of ~1800ish Silver. Not sure exactly why that's the case, but it's both more difficult and exponentially more toxic than all other areas I've been at. My best guess is that it's where people actually become cognizant of basic mistakes in the game, and vastly over-estimate their own ability. Put another way, it's lots of players who can explain what shouldn't be done but aren't actually good enough to not do it.
I think what could be really fun and competitive was if they created a 6 stack mode competitive in overwatch. They take the average sr of the players so that’s the sr of their team. So that way people can play in a team focused environment and gms can play with friends.
I'm 2.9k support and have noticed that matches feel very out of my control. One match will be so ridiculously easy and another will be so impossible! I kinda feel like you climb if you just play a lot even if you are bad. There are bad players who climb lol. I have played the game a lot but probably put about 200 hours into comp
I feel like at this point the balance patches are so severe, like how genji got a huge buff that was way too much, because they need to have them instead of other content. I think that the overwatch team could just be making such huge changes to make up for the fact that there's nothing new coming out and they don't want players to get bored and leave. I don't know if they talk about this in the video, I'm only half way through so sorry if this idea is nothing new.
13:40 It's really not. Let's just call out the elephant in the room that for some reason is being actively ignored thus far. There is literally AN _IDENTICAL_ GAME MODE to competitive that you can play if you just want to shoot the shit, it still takes your rank and MMR into account, it just doesn't actively display ranks or count towards your SR gain/loss; it's called quick play. So when an identical mode to comp exists SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of not being try hard, how is it fair to say 'this person smurfs and actively harms *_11_* other people's match who _are_ playing to win because that 1 person doesn't want to play with their team and instead do whatever the fuck they want' is understandable behavior? Why does that 1 person get to fuck up 11 other people's game because they could be bothered to switch accounts but not game modes? Like is this some moon logic going on here or am I missing something? It genuinely confuses me that they are all pretending that competitive is the *_ONLY_* game type in Overwatch when we all know it isn't. edit: I don't care so much about the SR, win or loss just trying your best in comp is all that should matter. It just confuses me incredibly that they are just not acknowledging that comp isn't the only game mode, so to say it's fine for people to fuck around in a game mode that is _specifically_ intended to be taken more seriously when there is an identical one just sitting there intended for people to play for shits and giggles is just bizarre to me.
Thank you, as a console player I can confirm there is another gamemode like competitive that takes rank and mmr but still matches you with level 18's and 200's that can easily 1v6 my team with no option to flex to help
I mean, they kind of addressed their reasoning but ultimately I think it boils down to the fact that you shouldn't care about it too much because it's a problem with another player and you should be very focused only on yourself. The mindset of blaming others is a huge mental block in my opinion. It literally doesn't matter if you lose a game if you become better for it. Just improve and assess your weaknesses from every loss. You get a shitter one match and the other team will get him next match. These are variables and YOU are the constant.
@@libertyprime9307 Traits of Stoicism is definitely something you should definitely try to implement; there's no doubt about that. Nevertheless, it doesn't take away from the fact that as the OP said, they all definitely skirted around the elephant in the room: Quickplay exists, and treating the actual Competitive mode as anything but is a problem.
Your so wrong it shouldnt be funny but it is. Quick play is QUICK play for a reason. It cuts corners on match making. Sure it tries for good mmr match ups but i cant tell you the amount of times as a low plat i matched against diamond-master players. To be fair i didnt lose all those matches, but still. Match maker for qp is far less concered about true fair match making and more get this person in a game.
As a plat player, I am usually quite calm but the only thing that pisses me off is when someone on my team spam thanks, it’s gets me so mad when someone blames me for their mistakes.
The one trick argument is difficult because on one hand if you only play doomfist and can maintain a certain rank, then the team shouldn't want you on a different hero for fear that you'll play any other choice 1-2 ranks lower than doom. But regardless someone is going to tunnel vision that doomfist point every lost teamfight until the game ends and then chalk it up to "we had a one-trick gg". Even games that go down to a tied game last second overtime someone will still say "gg we had a braindead ball one-trick" when in reality you were one teamfight or even 2-3 kills away from winning the entire game. The whole system is difficult to cope with, but the only thing you can do is focus on your own game. Plan for how your role can adjust if your dps won't hitscan pharah, plan a strategy for if your team is going hog/ball and won't swap. The way I see it you can spend all your time in ranked finding someone to blame other than yourself, or you can spend half that time improving your own play and solving the issue a better way
one problem i seem to have in abt mid gold is you either get put with plats, or silvers (and its really easy to tell which one it is if everyones unranked.) Also, i always seem to lose when i get put in the silver games, and win a lot in the higher ranked games, and i feel like one of the bigger problems is in silver winning fights is completely random, as people stagger all game and dont group. As, for the higher ranked games its much more coordinated and i win more consistently. Edit: I just wanted to add this in for people not in low ranks how its like... 90% of the games is either the enemy team steamrolling you or your team steamrolling the enemy team. I rarely ever have those close games or back and forth games where both teams play great and its like a 20-30 min game, most games end in like 10 minutes.
Nott Dreamz yeah same I’ve played in an all diamond game and at some points even looked the best on my team even though I’m plat the game is far easier when you get more support if me as sigma gets a good amount of heals u can pop off and even carry games in not trying to be cocky but even still I find it pretty easy to plat with diamonds and harder with plats even though it should theoretically be the opposite
Kinda the opposite for me. I am 3800 and sometimes I get diamond games which I always seem to win and sometimes I get GM - Top 500 games which I always seem to lose. Probably because 4200 - 4400 games are being played at a much faster pace and players will actually pressure there enemy out of good positions. Unlike in diamond where I can stand on highground with max charge as Zarya and melt the backline for free.
@@grim7048 yeah as for silver and plat there's such a big skill gap where winning games in silver is pretty much luck and the plat games are so much easier and fun to win
Those 5% stats can be incredibly misleading. For example, it is much easier to have a higher critical scoped accuracy on widow in plat than it is in gm. Because plat players tend to have decent mechanics, but bad game sense. GM players are probably aware of widow and have good movement to avoid headshots, but plat players have bad movement and positioning leading for them to get picked off easily. Stats only mean so much when those stats are acquired against different levels of skill. And you do NOT need to be playing at a masters or gm level to climb to diamond. In my experience climbing to diamond, which I've done a few times across accounts, you will get there eventually if you belong there. Of course, if you are a 3k player playing in 2.8k, there will be a few games where you do everything you can and still lose. Those happen when you are somewhat close to the rank you belong in. However, the general trend will always be positive. Play for an extended period of time and you WILL climb to where you belong.
@@awesomeness0759 Individual stats can be misleading, but as a whole, not very much. I'm not saying that if a guy has 30% scoped crit on Widow (the same as Kephrii) that he should be GM, but if he has high scoped and scoped crit, high final blows per 10, high final blow to death ratio, high damage per 10, golds every match, then the game should be able to say, "Hmm, this guy's winrate is only 52%, but he's mollywhopping his ELO, maybe we can move him up 250SR and see if he's still dominating." Far as I'm concerned, if you're the MVP of every match you play or even the majority of them, you're in the wrong rank. Also, I'm not saying you need to play at a Masters level to climb to Diamond. You just have to play that well if you want to climb to Diamond without playing many hundreds of matches, because that's the nature of a 6v6 game.
@@agroed Its a mmr based ranked system obviously you need to grind after your mmr solidifies? Thats a concept that has been around for decades at this point, if you wanna climb a rank a day you just have a wrong concept of the game.
@@agroed Thats not how any of this works tho. Data is only accurate in mass that fact wont change, either you have insane rank fluctuation which would fuck with the games balance or you have to grind which needs determination.
Mmr reset would start out completely shit, but I think itd help a slight amount. It wouldnt take years to stabilize, it would take each player something like 200-300 games to get to where they belong. That's like 2 seasons for most people who play comp.
JKennyPro I used to also think that but I’ve seen a lot of “unranked to GM” videos to know that’s not the case. In almost all those videos the GM player will typically get placed in Plat mayyyybe Diamond. I don’t think the way blizzard calculates your rank is all that great. There’s just too many factors that can’t be tracked with a number (example: shotcalling an incoming enemy ult and the team avoids it) Those types of big brain plays just can’t be tracked numerically.
From what I can tell, the step from Diamond to Masters is larger than from Plat to Diamond. Maybe it's that I'm on Xbox, but in Diamond, it seems that the picking the meta is a lot less important. In Masters, picking the meta is a lot more important.
Platinum is the rank that’s high enough for players to REALLY care about their rank, but still too low for players to realize when they are the issue
So true. The worst about plat is the unwillingness to switch when they are being hard countered. Especially genjis who are doing garbage the entire game but get one good nanoblade and think they are the best players in the game. I finally got to diamond the actions seem more purposfull still a lot of only dps players in open queue which is really frustrating. I have been silver to diamond been stuck in low Plat the longest lemme tell you every rank is garbage. Just a shit game but so addicting.
Plat is really bad. Like I'm not a plat player, but back when I was, it was pure cancer. Plat for me is the rank where people are good enough so you can't solo carry, but bad enough to lose games.
Platinum in any game is probably the roughest imo. But I would say that if you make plat in any game you are good at the game(imo). You can get away with making a mistake in this rank, however, once you get to Diamond and above those mistakes can be devastating as efficiency and momentum become more detrimental the higher you go up. Tactical awareness and team cohesion begin to be really important here if you want to climb imo. I realized sometimes yes you have an “off tank one trick” and that they won’t change but I thought to myself “what can I do to enable them to play the best and possibly help us win. It’s worked for me a handful of times.
Smitticon .q The game isn’t shit. The playerbase is shit. Overwatch is well designed overall, but human nature is crappy.
In plat you’ll have the most fun competitive experience in my opinion
WE GOT FINALLY GOT HIM
THE MAN
THE LEGEND
BAME1!!!
The underrated bronze legend
Bro why your profile pic redigit man
@@ElLucoso there's a limitation on it?
never heard of him
“I’ll take a one trick if he knows what he’s doing” I felt that
Well obviously no ones going to complain since you’re not doing bad. No one screams “One trick” until you start to do bad.
chaz mathews lol that’s not the point
But it’s still a valid point.
@@Tung-- not if its unrelated?
Fox McFly that’s literally the point... “if he knows what he’s doing” essentially means “if he is playing well, and is getting picks so I won’t complain”
as someone who previously was very competetive but also very emotionally dependent on his success in ranked i wanna say this:
lately, i kinda have figured out how to not be affected by my game to game success and if my team is throwing or not.
now my approach has become just doing the best that i can. this includes schotcalling, mostly playing offtank, being very hard to tilt most of the times and also being lighthearted about the game when it really is fun and my team is doing great. this has allowed me to get like 200-300 sr higher average, from 3k (half my time in high plat and half my time in low diamond) to now being 3.1 to 3.3 k.
i now have more fun with the game, i care less about if my team is playing perfect overwatch and more about if i understand how i can maximize my impact. this has taken me years of playing teambased competetive games though. i can understand everybody that struggles with that especially in high plat. what i dont really get behind is the whole "playing for fun vs playing for the win" type of deal. for me, success and winning is fun, therefor i wanna understand the game. understand how i can maximize my decisionmaking and impact. that problem solving process is the fun.
other people in low elo wanna climb but they dont wanna learn. they basically want success without being better than their rank. and that cant work. because no matter if you want to be better at the game or not, your skill level determines your mmr. and if you dont think your current elo suits your skill level, then you gotta prove it.
the reality is: if you are in gold, and you cant climb, you gotta ask yourself the question: is the game fun for me here in gold? if not, then you should either not play the game or try everything to climb and see if the experience gets better or if you yourself are the real reason of why the game isnt fun for you. and if thats the case then you should work on your mindset. if you dont want that then you better be happy with your rank.
I'm down in gold but thats my perspective also. I use to play high level cod but the way I took it was way to over the top. I was not playing to have fun, I was playing to win and I tied fun directly to that. Sometimes i can lose a game that was actually fun and be ok with it. Its fun to win but if that's the only way I can have fun then I'm missing the point of playing games.
Ended up having to do a mix. I somehow got plat tank even though it’s my worst role imo but climbed well on support and in open queue (used to be 1600 on my old set up before role lock); I deranked from near plat dps to low silver.
For dps, it’s coin flip games. I either have gg go next games (the team that afks in choke, overall decent comp but a Hog afks in front of all of their team and they rotate 4-5 ults per fight, throwers/leavers, etc), or I get decent games (Bronze winstons that actually hit the go button so I lock Tracer and play with them, a dps/support I can play well with, or a team that in general plays well). It just got so stressful with swapping from “just do my job and play with the team” to “if I don’t go 1v6, we’ll literally get nothing done and lose” that I gave up on dps in role lock.
Once I solidified in plat, Tank/support/open queue have honestly had 7-8 of 10 games being really good, with 1 go next and 1 loss that overall wasn’t terrible. It can still be a bit stressful having to constantly be on guard and play near 100%, but I have fun even with losses/ games that don’t go as well as I’d like.
Never expect your teammates to do anything. That way anything they do is well above your expectations!
Damn that’s some straight up facts DatVocals! I did the same strategy as you and I was able to get out of gold for after 9 seasons since I had to enjoy what I was playing and if not, I would take a break.
I used to be t500 player but then I took break I was down in diamond and I was getting tilted so I decided to play for fun and now I'm masters nearly gm
i feel like the game is at its most fun when your team is working together, win or lose, thats why it can be frustrating when someones throwing or not commincating or just bad
Yes like if I lose but my team has comms and we tried our best I’m not salty at all
Man I love these Great Debates.
Agreed. I eat this shit up. Makes my rides to and from work fly by.
@@Bonkersiznuts Facts man. Il listen to them during chores too.
my experience with low ranks: people getting mad and tilted when not winning or getting carried enough. I don't meet people who play for fun I meet people who are too tilted to climb. And that makes it less fun for me to play, because I just find it hard to have fun with there's negative energy everywhere..
Are one tricks acceptable? Short answer is Yes with an if; long answer is No with a but.
The short answer is no the long answer is no because if you get hard countered your hard throwing if you keap playing that hereo or if you switch cause you can play any other hero. So one tricking is bad
@@dmodk8010 Meh. One tricking is only an issue if you make the ASSUMPTION that they're standing in your way of climbing out of your rank. Which, quite frankly, is nothing but an assumption. Statistically, you'd end up playing against just as many "throwing" one tricks. Meaning, you don't lose anything by it.
WolfRites this is true one tricks are easy sr if you know there a one trick. One tricks are very anoying where let’s say your running dive but you get that one asshole who runs hog you have to change the whole comp so your not farmed
The worst rank is
Whichever rank im currently in
*gets to top 500* this rank suc
@@nekowerewolf9769 lol
Plat has the best and worst rank/elo. T500 is just meta game.
Master is the worst
I’m glad everyone is so positive and considerate, but sometimes you just want to ask that hard countered onetrick “are you really having fun if you’ve spent more time in the spawn screen than the game?” Lol.
Great video as always SVB. Always a pleasure to watch.
Damn what a line I might use that to other one tricks
Bame1 spot on with the unendorsment level. Xbox use to have that. Where it would tell you to avoid people that got reported to much.
It still does
One thing I never understood is if you want to just chill and have fun, lets say after a rough 10 hour shift at work you just want to unwind and enjoy a game or two of OW, why not just play quickplay or arcade? Why go into comp and deal with people who arent in the same state of mind as you, people who are trying hard to rank up, people who will be toxic at you for not being as serious as them? Why put yourself and teammates through all that if you truly just want to have fun? In my opinion, people don't just want to have fun, they want the validation and excitement from being in a somewhat serious environment and ranking up in addition to having fun, but to truly get the most out of that I think it's best to be a little more serious in comp or otherwise just play quickplay? I don't know, curious on everyone's thoughts.
I am 110 percent with you! It isn't fair to players who are trying to go all out when a player is just trying to have fun. Fun is for quickplay/arcade.
Because my idea of fun does not fit quickplay, I just don't want people yelling at me for reasons they think are valid but often end up being what they'll describe others doing to them in bad faith
Amateur Ghost then but what is your idea of fun? An environment where everyone are trying their hardest to win?
For me you A get longer games for your queue time with ranked and B you get gold gun money. This is why I’d play competitive without the ‘I’m gonna win’ mindset
cuz quickplay is shit
What's so weird to me is the idea of people playing competitive just for fun. I have so little time in comp because I only play this game for fun and my mindset has always been "you're just a casual, you don't need a golden gun, nobody would even want to queue into a game with a hog one-trick anyway." I'm not saying I'll play comp more, but I must say this revelation has really given me something to think about.
Maybe there should be silver guns for people who have comp points left or introduce QP point. Make them cheaper, but also somewhat rare and rewarding to get. Also I would really, really like questlike/achievement like rewards for playing a character a lot. Stuff like a skin for Ana when you've slept 100 Blading Genji's. I dunno, CoD has that and it looks like a fun way to motivate getting better.
Dextriathlon honestly I think all of that is a really cool and good idea! Having unique achievement/mastery level weapon or hero achievement skins would feel so rewarding and when you que into comp would indicate to your teammates it’s a hero you know a thing or two about them. Really cool concept you have tbh
Since role queue it feels like 55% people who queue tank in ranked are hog one-tricks. And yeah, most people in, say, plat, play comp just for fun. It's way more competitive than QP, and most people want to win, but very few actually do everything they can to improve (like VoD review, practice, warming up...)
I play competitive for fun, even if it gets frustrating I stay chill, when i win it’s fun but if I lose I don’t mind it too much. I always do my best but I don’t lose my mind over one lose.
Papa Rat ayy, fellow Hog 1 trick, I can kinda agree but sometimes I feel like proving myself, no problem in barely playing comp though, I rarely play it aswell, though I’ve gone from gold to diamond (3.4k) 1 tricking hog Idk what my point is just neat to see a fellow hog 1 trick
Aarge : Imagine I'm playing Hanzo and the enemy has a pharah.
should watch him sniping Pharahs out of the sky.
just because you can't kill Pharahs with Hanzo doesn't mean others can't
Take a shot every time SINotfound says like
We still love carry though
Challenge accepted
Minute 4, and I'm dead.
Kodmmfkxiskxidgjdit (I did it, now I have alcohol poisoning, thanks dude)
This is a step in the right direction, but we DEFINITELY need a console / PC debate (from a wide variety of ranks).
Discuss topics like Pharah, smurfs, Blizzard not responding to reports on console, etc.
Meh people will realize that the game is mostly the same despite the differences. But maybe people from both console and PC need to see that they're playing the same game.
Blizzard doesn’t give a shit about Console. That’s a fact.
Except it’s a completely different ball field on Console.
blizzard does not controll the reports on console the console does
what reports work on console?
As someone that plays Overwatch pretty casually I feel Bame1 on a spiritual level.
Grouping up is the biggest problem. U feel like u can't learn shit if there's no teamfight, and there's no teamfights in quickplay, or in the first 3 ranks to a degree (mainly because of a self fulfilling prophecy of oh we lost bc we have no shield tank and Ana let me just run out of spawn and try to shoot something in the face before I drop) For this reason u will see that players playing heros that can duel tend to group up less where heros like most supports and main tanks will wait for the team more. They can't have fun unless there is a fight. If quickplay actually resembled a decent game of overwatch I would go there for my one tricking shenanigans, but until then every now and then my team will have to deal with the guy who's not in voice trying to force a hero by using crazy plays and positioning
Ah man I always see support players peeking angles while everyone else is resetting, and then they get picked off by an enemy Hanzo or Widow so we all have to wait another 10 seconds - which half the team won't do so it becomes an instant stagger fight from the beginning.. The amount of times I've seen supports miles ahead of our tank players is astonishing. It's literally a 50/50 whether they get out alive or not.
Then again, as you say that's the nature of quickplay, you are only guaranteed one full team fight, and that's the first fight at the beginning of the round..
Don’t join voice chat and just carry
I’m a silver player and we group up about half the time
@@Real_MisterSir this, so much this. And then you stay staggered the rest of the game and lose, because grouping up in the bottom three ranks is like herding cats on a good day
totally true
As someone who's climbed from Silver to GM, Plat is the worst rank in the game. For one, up until plat you can play Battle Mercy and get out if you're good. You don't need your team at all to play in the metal ranks, if you yourself are better than that rank you will absolutely climb. Plat is the first rank where team cohesion, ult synergy, team comp, etc actually matters. It's also above gold, and since gold is the average, Plat means you're better than the average player. What this means is that people start to care about their rank way more than in the previous ranks. However, a lot of these players came out of Gold blaming everyone else for their own mistakes, and that doesn't change. They're high enough sr that they think they're good, but in actuality they suck. What that means is you get a hyper toxic environment, in the first rank where you need to start playing with your team and can't just solo carry on Doomfist because you got mad and threw a hissy fit the girl on your team wasn't playing Mercy.
I totally agree I went from gold to gm/top500 and plat was the rank that took me the most time to get out of especially since am a support player
@@temmoali7747 I'm going to the struggle right now. So close to being diamond
I am a Mercy one trick on 3.8k rn and I can carry Plat games but in Diamond I am really struggling to carry and win games. Maybe it's just because diamond is closer to my rank... And I really don't think that you are Top500 because I have never seen any master+ player struggling in Diamond on his main role.
If you just play 50% of your best you can climb out plat as a gm. I think actually think you are a mad Plat hard stuck. Every thing you wrote agrees with that
@@malte_2 Dunno how you came to the conclusion that I'm hard stuck plat from what I wrote. I've played this game for 4 years since Beta. The first year I played I was stuck in silver. (I had a super crappy computer and graphics card, was literally playing on 25 fps, and I also blamed my team every game and always thought I was doing everything perfectly) After I replaced my crappy hardware and got out of the mindset of "I'm perfect no one can beat me" I immediately started climbing. Climbed from 1600 to 1900 in the last week of the season. Then I immediately placed 2200, and in about 2 weeks I climbed to 2600. Then I got stuck there for another 2 years. Silver and Gold are so chill compared to plat. There was barely anyone blaming anyone, very few people talked on vc (or were even in vc to begin with) and there was almost no toxicity. I saw about 300-400 girls in those ranks, and not a single time did anyone do the classic "omg a girl why aren't you playing mercy" thing. I genuinely thought that sexism was not a problem in Overwatch, because of how long I'd played without ever seeing it. Then I hit plat. Quite literally, every game was filled with people smurfing, people doing bad accusing other people of smurfing, girls being targeted just for being a girl and not playing mercy, all the things I listed in my og comment. I was stuck there for a year, slowly but surely climbing, but going into the 4th year of Overwatch I genuinely didn't think I'd ever get out of plat. Then at the beginning of the season I went on a massive winstreak and got to 2900, and started getting placed into diamond games, Consistently, the diamond people were the ones being chill, helping people improve, and the plats continued their behavior. I got out of plat and got to diamond, and kept on climbing, and at the end of season 22, I was 3800. Placed into gm at the start of season 23 and been there ever since. Plat was absolutely, 100%, the worst rank and experience I've ever had the displeasure of experiencing. I'm not hard stuck plat.
omg Bame is so wholesome lol I love his attitude towards the game.
As a main tank player who was masters and had to deal with hog Zarya meta dropping me into high diamond like the higher you climb the less viable it is to be not be able to flex enough within your own role
Maybe consider the great platform debate? Grab somebody from Xbox, Ps4, Switch, and PC. just a thought
Thank you, as a fellow xbox player I've been here since beta and 95% of TH-cam videos are PC players giving PC advice....
@@Bluemansonic 100% we need more console repesentatiom
@@Bluemansonic 95% of PC advice also works for console, i play both
I feel like that's a pretty empty conversation. The game is mostly the same except the input method and like refresh rate etc...
It's well known there's a bias toward heroes like Pharah and Tracer, and away from Widow/Ash/Ana and such. So balance is a bit different but, not much else to discuss really.
@@libertyprime9307 dude what? Ashe, Widow and Ana are all meta on console and pharah is just as bad as she is on pc
I tried to help my friend out of Bronze, just to silver so she could play with her friends. But as a diamond DPS... I struggled a lot of matches! I lost way more than expected because I could kill 4 and our team would still just walk face first at a junkrat and die. The only aggression was towards the point, then they site there and wait for the enemy team to get high ground. And if the enemy team picks double sheild bastion... You could be top 500 and still lose as you team will never coordinate to attack it
I'm in gold and tried my best to hard carry bronze games, killing 3-4 players. Making it a 5v2 or 3, yet my team would still lose then blame me for picking a weak dps (Tracer)
@@rebornjoker359 honestly, until you get to high silver/ low gold. Winning is a random number generator some maps 😂 Skill can only outweigh so much feeding
@@theshontman depends of the role... a mercy cant carry as a dps or a offtank like zarya... on these ranks when i create a smurf i always play soldier or tracer
@@SoeZ- I play as soldier as you need the self healing in bronze, but even the best soldier can't break a double sheild, mercy bastion... I tried Genji and yes, the bastion kills himself with deflect, but usually there is little healing to sustain you from the rein and Orisa whaling on you also.
It's not impossible, Zarya/ hog are some of the best to climb, but if there is an iota of coordination in a bunker and your team doesn't have that. It's stupidly hard
@@theshontman soldier you must play as tracer, killing in the backline... in gold works xd... its not hard omg. Double shield? That meta was a few months, now is not good...
My winrate on these rank was 95% xd... in the other team there are dumb people too.
Haven't watched yet, but liking and commenting to get more visibility for this video. Love these videos, love these guys!
Epic
The hero every youtuber deserves
Platinum:
Where people waste their ult 1v6, gets dicked on then blames their team.
Where people throw and blame their team after 1 lost team fight.
Where people flame healers because reasons.
Platinum turns the team game into the blame game.
Applies to gold too. Usually see this mentality happen mainly in gold and plat
@@Apocalypse754 people who dont know how good they are tend to overestimate how good they are, people who are good tend to underestimate themselves. It's a blame game, Bad players blame teammates while good players blame themselves. Sometimes they're right, most of the time they're wrong
Happens in every rank
samu 6 true but mostly plat and gold I play in plat for tank and silver for dps and support the atmosphere is much more different there is far more flaming plat than silver and in silver someone will most likely go on comms to calm everyone down
@@skyto9233 True but happens most in the 2100 - 2900 range.
A year ago I wanted to test how high I could climb One Tricking Pharah. Made a new account, won all placements, placed diamond. I struggled in diamond for a month or two trying to figure out what exactly I could do to get value. I decided to go to every map and find places to position myself where I could do my job and avoid hitscans until I get close. Games were way easier then until I finally hit Masters. This was a wall I struggled against many widows and mccrees (machine gun buff mccree). I realized I needed to make my positioning the best it can possibly be in order to win these games. 3 months later I finally hit 4040 (low gm). I now have more respect for One Tricks knowing that they took the time to actually figure out their character beyond what most people would know. I’m not the best Pharah in the world I’m not gonna claim that but now I feel like I can do so much in a game without really being pressured.
These debates are amazing while at work or in queue. Easy sub
"you don't remember when you lost 100SR a year ago do you?!"
uh...yea...yea i do lol.
Then you probably dont play much to begin with
@@50733Blabla1337 I mean I still remember a year ago when Blizzard said I didn't join a game that it just didn't put me in and I lost 100 SR when I was a game from GM, but like that's different.
@@colegensheimer8841 Strange that the penalty for leaving is 50 Sr tho so not gonna lie that story is sus
@@50733Blabla1337 Lmfao, yea I lost 50 from the leaver penalty but I ended up dropping 100 sr. It's memorable because it was the most painful 100 sr to lose. Still joke about it with my friends.
@@colegensheimer8841 Lol ok but ye like you said thats quite different :D
I love these long videos man, even though I rarely play competitive myself, I love hearing people talk about the game!
To settle the previous debate,once and for all: Dinner roll. Dinner roll is the best roll.
that's a ride range... Hawaii roll for ham and roast pork, French baguette for some lunch meats, hard crusty Italian bread for some gravy ("sauce" to others)... there's factors to consider 🤣
Hawaiian roll would like a word with you.
California roll has entered the chat
@@trdrollin and has swiftly existed.. no offense, of course 😁
@@joeyt2756 Lol, none taken
So glad to see voices from all ranks
Sleepy is the exact division between having fun and playing to win
The main problem I have with the way blizzard balances is that when they decide to nerf heroes, they get nerfed into the ground making them completely useless and unfun to play.
And they make completely unnecessary buffs to already good heros
You mean like what they did to Roadhog recently?
David Newhart yep why buff road hog if your gonna make him worse than he was before the buff
That's only been true for like 3 heroes in the entire history of the game. And even then, those heroes were still playable in certain ranks.
For hog, he was pretty decent before, but with the buffs he was op. Now, he got nerfed too much and now is probably lower than the shield tanks
Another awesome video. These debates offer unrivaled metacommentary on the game.
Carry's rate of fire with the word "like" is approx 20 times/min if you're curious.
"But, like . . ."
True! Lol We all have our ticks I guess. He probably watched this back and saw for himself how much he says it.
But like his videos on youtube are really good not gonna lie
I dont think "fun vs winning", one tricking, smurfing etc philosophy arguments is something blizz can fix. They need to allow third party matchmaking with smaller moderated communities that force you to play to win, like faceit or esea, and then let ladder be the sort of moral grey area because you just can't moderate such a big playerbase with such vague rules and still please people. Either that or they need to implement some sort of premade tournament system ingame to cater toward crowds that really want to tryhard and win.
Biggest problem I see with ranked is that overwatch is a frustrating game to improve on by yourself. The devs recently talked about wanting to make losing more fun. Thats a good focus. Giving people tools to see how theyre actually falling short or what they can improve on, making losses feel less like youre being robbed by your team etc are something the game needs.
I do agree with your first paragraph; but I personally highly doubt the "effectiveness" of the second paragraph. I say this because of the Replay System that they've implemented. It's a GREAT system that really helps you with identifying certain issues you might be doing. But the amount of players who genuinely use it to actually improve is miniscule. Likewise with the Custom Game Modes with all of the neat little community games that people made to help you improve at key things too (double booping on Wrecking Ball; reliably landing Hooks on Roadhog, improving your Ana Sleep Darts on Dragonblading Genjis, etc). Those sort of things are almost always "glanced over" by the community or are really unknown to many people because not much attention is brought to them at all.
P.S. -- I would really like a tournament system similar to CoD: MW's personally. I think that's a great system that could also be very useful for a lot of community tournaments and leagues that people organize.
@@rohanmorris8530 Replay system doesn't actually help you at all unless you already know what to look for. It's a pretty time consuming and inconvenient process to go through. Replay system is nice but systems like that aren't what I got the impression Geoff Goodman was talking about when he referenced ways to make losing more fun. I got the imrpession that he was talking about more objective milestones and markers you can achieve and track from game to game. Stuff you can do independently of actually winning a match. I won't bother giving any examples cause we really don't know what they have in mind but there's room for imagination
@@crowdozer3592
I beg to differ. The easiest way to use the Replay System is to just find all of the moments you die in a game and rewatch the moments just before that led up to you dying. Understanding those moments will improve your survivability a lot just from doing that process which is something I do after every 5 games; and each time, it takes about 5 - 10 minutes (unless I died a lot in a game). You do it enough times, you'll even be able to identify the reason why you died in the midst of the game itself and won't have to review it in the Replay System. Following that, if you've generally a logical mind and thinking-pattern, you'd start looking at team-fights you've lost and analyzing why you lost them.
@@rohanmorris8530 I think you misunderstood me, in all of what you just said, it still fits what I meant... You go into the replays knowing what to look for and how to use them, as someone willing to invest that time
Replay system doesn't really fit in line with making ow more fun for what I'm betting blizz considers the "average" person (to roughly quote Jeff) who is just "relaxing and playing ranked" but it's great for people who take it really serious
Not trying to go off on a tangent about how to use the replay system or whether or not it's useful
@@crowdozer3592 Now I'm confused. If you're speaking about "not knowing what to look for in the Replay System", then I still beg to differ for reasons stated above. Namely because - how hard is it to tell yourself, "I want to improve at the game. Let me look at where I died and prevent that from happening so often"? Can't be that hard to piece together.
If you're speaking about who actually goes out of their way to use these type of tools - then I already addressed that in my first comment; meaning, I'm confused then about why you don't think the Replay System is a good system.
pogu thats me
Poggers Arrge
what I would love to see is a debate about the different platforms. I played a lot on ps4 and now I play on pc and it´s really 2 seperate worlds
KrieteFred I went from masters console to high diamond low masters pc and it’s literally the same. Had to climb from gold when I placed on pc and the only difference between console and pc is instead of kB/m abusers it’s cheaters instead. That’s it, only difference.
whenever Cary stops talking his face goes completely neutral
Lmao it happened as I read this
I’ve played in bronze to up to 3.9 and from personal experience I think 3.3ish is the sweet spot to have fun. Ppl know the game well enough while also being chill enough.
Fr
True but the amount of top 500/gm smurfs at 3300-3500 is absolutely nuts
@@Evan-ve5yj I dont think you know how much a gm/t500 on mainrole would dominate diamond, so no there arent that many low-mid master? meh quite a few low gm smurfs but t500 ppl smurf in gm mainrole and could legit be master offrole depending on their experience and playstyle.
@dave l 10-20% of games will have a hitscan smurf at that rank who are at least gm. I played at high diamond for a long time, and yes they do have a lot of impact on the game, that’s my whole point
Ive been from 2k-3k. Can confirm plats are most toxic. Including myself. May have reached diamond but i will forever be plat
i think, a great amount of satisfaction in games like overwatch (teambased class based) comes from understanding the game, being really good at certain heroes or aspects of the game and then the desire for clean play. this allows you to connect deeper than the average player with the interactions between players in the game. i found that the more i understood about what im good at in the game, the more i understood about what is a good or clean play, the more my love for the game itself grows and the more i appreciate those moments when they happen in ranked. cause you cant expect anything but you can look for those gems and be ready to abuse them to win games.
notice that all that i described completely misses any mention of what mistakes my teammates do or wiether or not the matchmaking was fair. because thats just noise. and i play overwatch to impact the game towards those good moments weither i shotcall to make em happen more likely, if i make a play myself or if i am happy for my teammates when they make a good play. thats all the positive things. i reinforce those good moments so that the bad ones just dont matter that much anymore.
Great content SVB. Thanks again for these awesome roundtable discussions you do, they're fantastic!!
1:38:40 To mend part of the smurfing issue:
Maybe introduce a system which dampens the impact of losing when it detects an enemy with a high W/L ratio or a teammate with a low W/L ratio within the past 10 competitive matches or something.
I've been playing with this idea for a while and can't think of any ways to abuse it.
Nvm
No
constructive
That idea banks on a lot of arbitrary assumptions. I played between 4200-4500, been on huge win and loss streaks, and 100% believe w/l is an unrealistic factor. "Oh no i met somebody with a 70% win rate i better only lose 5 sr" isn't fair. It needs to be based on legitimate statistics. A widow with a 15% acc over 10 games is one thing, but top players can go on 10-20 game loss streaks, it just isn't mathematically possible without punishing real players
And if Smurfs knew about it they would just steamroll 1 game, throw the next, etc.
Other discussion ideas
- Discussion on PC vs Console
- Discussion on having stacks in rank vs solo vs having a separate team queue
- Relatively similar to the last one so could lump this together but a discussion on playing in ranked vs playing on a team
Keep up the great work SVB! Love the content!
Way too many ads to keep it playing like a podcast. There's one every 3-4 minutes and really gets in the way of the conversation instead of being a mild distraction. I don't use adblocker cus I get creators need to make money too but man did this make me want to use one.
I kinda agree but at least all the adds are at the beginning
Unfortunately I agree. SVB's gotta make money so some ads are nessary but this video was skew'ed too far in the direction of ads. I love SVB's content and I didn't even make it through this whole episode.
Sorry about that - TH-cam automatically puts ads in when you upload the video. I've manually changed them now to be spaced out a lot more, similar to what you would get if you were watching a TV show on cable :)
Yeah, I have 13 here and each have 2 ads, so, 26 ads and some of it interrupts someone talking, so it’s kinda annoying :c
I understand they are needed and usually don’t skip them, but for the sake of my adhd, don’t insert them just randomly, YT 😅
This is probably just me but I only grinded up the ladder to get better end of season CP rewards for gold guns. If they gave you CP whether you won or lost, like in rocket league, I would have 100 times more fun than I ever did before I got burnt out
I like that idea
Getting golden gun points For losing Is a terrible idea.
Luke Mchugh it’s not like the gold gun even matters though. Literally someone could play Support in comp & then randomly buy Orisa’s gold gun.
@@thelingeringartist But what does that have to do with anything.
Luke Mchugh What I’m saying is that it literally does not matter. Gold guns don’t really matter. They’re just cute to have. Therefore points to get said gold guns don’t really matter either.
love that SINotFound was in this video, he really gives a realistic perspective on what its like to play in plat, and specifically for Cary, playing support in plat.
it is an impossible task to make rank perfect for everyone. thats just the nature of online matchmaking and elo systems. i think what bothers me the most is that people dont understand the elo system in its core. the system exists so that not everybody can reach the highest rank. it is by nature a certain bell distribution and yet people act like they somehow are entitled to climbing when they just play the game for long enough. and i think this is where people disregard a competetive multiplayer pvp game for what it is: its a sport. its like chess in a lot of ways. not everybody is supposed to be gm. yet gold or even silber borders get bullied when they are "hardstuck in plat", for basically being bad or not learning hard enough.
in videogames we have this expactations that eventually we are done. we will have played through the video game. but thats not what LoL, csgo, valorant or overwatch are like or about. its a sport and by nature, there will be some people that even though they have ambitions and dreams, they dont do everything they could to improve. and in a "normal" world, they would see that they would have to change that for themselves, the system cant give them what they think they are entitled to.
I also feel that people think they should just do placements and gain alot of Sr. Which isn't how it works.
Also people don't want to put in time to climb, they lose one game and flame because of it. But to climb up a rank takes alot of time, for 500 sr you can easily be looking at 10 to 25 Sr an hour, which would mean you have to play 50 60 hours to get that next rank.
@@ryanharkness6303 10-25 per hour with an average winrate of 60% or so. thats 50 hours basically already smurfing. if you are only slightly better than your rank, which is the reality for most people because you learn at the pace of the elo you play in, then its more like 100-150 hours per rank.
@@FirebladeXXL I was going to say it could be more, as I know it's best case to say less. But ya it takes a long time, and alot of work for sure.
I laugh at players that play like 30 games and say they can't climb.
But thank you for adding that, I just leave it out as it tends to make people mad for some reason
@@ryanharkness6303 yeah it just came to my mind, because in reality, people that are in one elo have a unique set of habits mostly typical for their elo. so you have to learn the next best things first, to build solid fundamentals without skipping things and right away wanna copy the best players (in an extreme example). for example: silver supports need to go against the habit of healbotting bc tanks in their elo facetank so much and so uneccessarily long. so you basically have to gradually increase added value while also learning how to keep healing up as much as possible in between those other things.
This mentality is laughable at best. The way the system is designed, is for you to get better, win more games, win more SR through your hard-work and dedication to the game. If you put more hours in and focus on improving, you will climb. Now I'm not saying you specifically, but what I've found is most players in lower elos (bronze-plat) don't want to put the effort into improving. Because the way to improve isn't just playing overwatch. If you're a DPS player you should learn to play hitscan so you can counter pharah echo and widow. But you should also learn junk pharah and sym because they're all viable. It's not enough to just 'play' the game to improve. You need to play but you also have to work on bad habits you formed from not knowing how to play properly in the first place.
This myth that its a bell curve and not everyone can hit GM isn't fact. Not everyone can be GM at the same time. But by working hard enough and improving yourself and playing the game more, you will eventually hit GM. But for every new GM, someone has to lose GM. Because that is how ladders work.
If you're hardstuck in silver/gold/plat for multiple seasons (me) then its probably because you aren't working on improving YOUR gameplay, and you probably blame other people (me for the longest time)
In gold and below teammates never look behind or next to them.. straight ahead only
Thanks for putting in timestamps! It's great.
23:56 I don't hate one tricking, but in role queue the carry/counter potential becomes isolated to the other person in the role which is what I hate.
At least in open queue that potential is left available for the other five players.
It'd be nice if there was an offer to swap role option in role queue in the case someone is not especially trained in a certain subtile or category.
Agreed
Too abuseable sadly.
When I go widow lol. It’s actually kinda funny because I don’t play Widow hardly at all unless I pretty much have to. During the pre role lock era it was a game on dorado and a sniper was just perched up giving us probs. I wasn’t even playing damage but I told the damage players if one switches to support I’ll go widow and battle this person. Annnnd they did it and we actually ended up winning the map!
But it sucks having to try to single handedly counter something by yourself because someone won’t switch off a hero that is clearly put at a natural disadvantage.
Great discussion, really enjoyed this meaty chat. Pleased that the full sweep of ranks was represented.
Would love a podcast episode on console Overwatch 🙂
One tricking is an interesting one. I agree most with Arrge - it is 1 out of 100 games that are lost because of a one-trick getting unlucky against another stronger counter, and usually (and I will say this straight into low diamond) it's actually lost because your team is screwing up at working together, or is toxic, or the other team is just better than them at coordinating.
Guys, you are not losing a significant number of games to one-tricks - and even when you're talking about someone playing a suboptimal pick into a counter, you probably are experiencing confirmation bias. I've had matches where I've played say zen or ana into a sombra and they haven't bothered me, but the first time I die (even if the sombra has gotten ganked 4 or 5 times by me or by other stuff) people want me to swap. Why? There is literally no reason, you think I'm getting countered because you saw me die once, but actually I've been successfully fighting my backline fight this whole time while you were picking your nose and keeping her from bothering anybody else. I mean sure I could go brig maybe but I'm looking at the enemy Ashe and I'm like....I will get nothing done if I swap except make everyone feel better. Sometimes I do it, because y'know I like people to feel good, but I know I'm probably losing us the game doing it.
Also I will always refer to prolikechro when it comes to the one-trick debate. If there are characters you are "allowed" to one-trick, like hitscan, like dva, like mercy, like reinhardt or like lucio, then it is a fundamental problem with the player base and maybe the balance of the game, that there are also characters you aren't "allowed" to one-trick. Most of the one-trick's that people hate can easily be legitimately strong characters, on a good position, but people just don't like to play with or against them because they perceive it as being cheesy or some other piece of garbage. It's all pride and stubbornness driving this whole debate rather than a legitimate problem, and in fact, role queue encourages tricking. It is how you win, that you have someone who specializes.
The hereos okay to 1 trick are hereo that can be used in most to all scenarios. Torb,bastion sym etc there good some times but playing them every second is not helping the team.
@@dmodk8010 I think you missed the point. We told people it was okay to 1 trick them, the system reinforced it, and it was a success strategy (1 tricking is always a success strategy - most 1 tricks are so good at their characters they maintain at least a 50 percent win rate). But then dva was garbage when double shield became a thing and people flamed the same people they lived to have on their team a couple weeks earlier and same same with all those heroes I listed. There's a problem with the game and a problem with the people in it, not with the people who trick a character.
Honestly, I miss the breaks between seasons. Those off-season games were genuinely paradise for someone who loves both the competitive mode, and playing for fun. There was nothing on the line, but the expectations and mode gave enough structure that you don't have as many people soft throwing like in QP, and you have cooperation and communication like a regular comp game. That is what I wish QP was like all the time, but instead it's somehow more tilting than comp because it seems like everyone is braindead.
For the sake of one tricking, I can't agree with SInotFound at all. In a team game where you queue up with complete strangers, you will never be able to control which heroes your allies and enemies are good at playing, regardless of whether they one trick/main or just generally flex - and you will never be able to control whether they will be proficient enough on their hero pools to counter their opponents on the other team.
One tricking (or hard maining) can mean that player knows how to play their hero even when the odds supposedly are against them. One tricks will know their counters way better than anyone else, and learn how to play around them too, in ways that casual flex players never would be able to.
Things such as "if you're playing Pharah and dying to hitscan then just learn another hero" -can turn into "If your pharah dies to hitscan then keep playing her and learn how to deal better with your natural counters".
That's how I started out myself, coincidentally with Pharah, and I learned how to deal with every single counter she has - be it Widow, or a pocketed Ashe, or a super accurate McCree, etc. It has come to the point where I never fear an enemy, and because I hard mained Pharah for so long, I am also way above the average skill level on that hero. I am however also a massive flex player, purely from the fact that I enjoy playing multiple heroes. It originally started off by realizing that I wouldn't always be able to decide how many tanks and healers would be on my team (back before role queue), so I learned a few core healers and tanks just to have the flex potential for whenever I got into a game of 4dps players or more.
However, I never did it for the sake of helping my team, I did it because I wanted to win. Going into solo queue ranked IS in itself a selfish endeavor no matter how you look at it, and that's exactly why I don't agree with SInotFound's point of view. You are still a solo player in a team environment, you get new team mates every game, you can't control anything but your own style of play, and you don't have to answer to anyone. Everyone you ever meet, allies or enemies, are ultimately your opposition on your climb.
I would only see the selfishness nature gone, when you go into scrim environments where you queue as a group rather than a solo player.
Here’s what I think. One tricking is fine as long as your trying to win. I think flexing can be really good though. Like I main genji but if I’m getting crapped on I’m not going to continue to play him for that match. I’ve already seen the mistakes I’ve made no reason to int when you could swap. One tricks can be fine but having an understanding of all the heroes in case you have an off day would be great. You won’t learn by getting crapped on if you have a bad day you don’t push through it you learn from the mistakes but it probably won’t happen in that same day so I would switch. Just my bit though.
The problems with one tricks - some people never learn. They will just keep dying to their counters without learning how to play against them. There are reasons why word "hardstuck" exist and why people with multiple starts or even borders exist in lowest ranks. If you are onetrick and shit at the same time - you're basically throwing.
I was Lucio main for awhile from silver to master (like 70% of my games i was on him). And after role lock, hero bans, brig/mercy meta - lucio is my 4th most playable hero (in last 2-3 seasons). Just because i switch when i think that im ain't doing shit for my team. Tho i know how to 1v1 every hero in the game, stop ults with beat, not dying etc. If i see that im 60% on beat but enemies are using nano blade - im useless and i have to switch. With that mentality i hit GM and still having fun in games. And now i know how to play multiple heroes on gm lvl (regardless of meta) instead of playing one hero on top500 or master level (depending on meta)
Im not saying that my way is the only way to climb and get better. For example phara onetrick from Avoided (contenders team) was number 1 player in the eu. But im saying that very few players can actually improve. So in my eyes onetricking isn't something good untill you actually thinking about mistakes you're making
@@yellowtunes2756 -and that's just the nature of some people maxing out at a certain skill level. Doesn't really matter if they chose to flex or one trick, if you are not able to learn from your mistakes then you don't rank up, simple as that. The core here is that if you are good enough on your one trick hero to be at a certain sr level, then that is deserved. If you can't fight your counters and you can't learn, then you're simply not good enough to rank up anyways, so you stay at a level where you aren't throwing your games.
It all comes back to the fact that at the end of the day, it's a team game but a solo environment, as long as you aren't scrimming or full team queueing. Everyone can do a lot of things to increase their abilities, but not everyone are willing to, and that's just the nature of how people play. Someone who flexes all the time may not be willing to learn much outside their core mechanics because they always default to easy counterpicking, and then when they get matched against a onetrick they don't know how to counter them because the one trick is far better at their matchup than the flex player is. The flex player could improve their individual hero skill, and the one trick could improve their flex potential. Just two sides of the same coin, and in the end whatever we chose decides where we exist on the ladder.
Personally I am, as said, all for flex playing. I can safely play every hero in the game except maybe 3-4 characters to a mid/high Diamond level, and my main to well within Masters. But that's just me. There is a place for all kinds of players, as long as you don't actively try to throw games, and you are at your rightful skill rank, then I don't care who my team mates are. Learning how to play with different players' playstyles is just as much a skill, as mastering your own hero pool.
Gotta say your content with these podcasts are awesome. You got yourself a sub and surprisingly you dont have as many as you deserve!
This is probably the least heated debate on the channel lmao
This was quite interesting. As someone who has friends in all ranks of varying approaches to the game, this debate definitely touched on most, if not all mindsets of the community. It's kind of funny hearing our gm friend freak out when playing with the rest of us plat-bronze players just trying our best.
As someone who started in bronze and I have legitimately improved in all aspects of the game, I would love to be able to wipe the slate clean and clear up all my shitty gameplay data. The game is genuinely confused on my MMR I think.
What are you now
@@scottkim4544 high gold/low plat
I started comp as soon as I could at level 20 which was a huge mistake. I jumped into comp before I even had any game sense. I stubbornly only kept playing without trying to actually learn. Like three years later I'm still in bronze because I developed super bad habits and my only game sense is based on bronze-level gameplay. I'm at a point now where I feel like I make genuine improvements to my gameplay like prioritizing defending my healers (I play tank) and joining comms every game to communicate we should stick together or to announce flanks etc. Despite this I feel directionless because I'm unsure if I'm making the wrong calls or because people dont listen or are still learning (which I think is valid at mid-high bronze). I try to have fun and I feel like my improvements are being recognized in my SR/MMR
@@jacobrudy-froese6543 Don't ever be afraid of doing the wrong thing or making a mistake. Just keep doing what you are doing and try to learn from the outcome be it good or bad. The game will give you feedback over time, but don't be worried about the short term. Ranked climb is a marathon not a sprint.
I’m generally okay being an average ranked player, but when my rank starts to slip and I feel like that my performance and ability are higher than what my rank reflects is when I get the most stressed and toxic. And having a DPS rank that can go back and forth from high silver to high bronze several times a season I do feel like the pool of players down there is a little broken and it can be hard to learn and grow from there.
I'd say for one-tricking it also really depends which hero it is. There are some heroes that are always going to be far more situational than others. If you're one-tricking Doomfist then you're going to get flamed all the time, because sometimes you're just going to feed. That's just how Doomfist is. Especially if he's countered well by the other team. If you're playing Torb and the other team knows to focus your turret down the instant you drop it, that's halfish of the value of your character that goes down the toilet. But who's ever going to flame you for one-tricking McCree? Unless your entire team is transported back to 2017 and they're playing dive, McCree is never a "bad" pick. There are characters that might be better like maybe you want an Ashe to counter PharMercy instead, but something like McCree or Ashe, as opposed to Torb, Sym, Doom, Junk, etc., are never going to be the worst character you could possibly pick.
Ye same for hanzo he argues on the bases of one of the most versatile dps in the game, while otps are a problem when its niche picks that are literally not supposed to be played in every situation like the heros you named.
SI: "IDK, like maybe it's just me, idk, but I just feel like, idk... at the end of the day it's just like, idk" xD
My thoughts on one tricking is:
Don't let it get to you. You'll always have one trickers, dcers, bad players, toxic players, 100 other things.
A positive mindset, taking responsibility, always believing in the outcome, and focusing on improving your skill instead of winning will be what helps you climb.
When you blame someone else for a loss/bad play/playstyle etc. You need to be careful because you can be simultaneously turning a blind eye at the 100 mistakes you made. One being the frustration itself that hurts your gameplay and maybe hurts your teams gameplay (tilt has a snowballing negative effect)
all this speak of doomfist onetricks... I feel so loved
love the debate bro. i soo beautiful to hear all side of the levels. thank you for the education. i love all the spectrums of your debates. (im low bronze since "18"..btw). ....this was a wonderful debate. ty sooo much for all the information. GOO FLORIDA MAYHEM..HEE HHEEE
In gold through plat - I generally assume people are *picking* for fun/training and *playing* for the win.
14:55 bamel the ball one trick looked at his camera so fast
With the endorsement system, they could make it so players with a high endorsement level will go up in the queue while low endorsement players would get slower queue times, could be a massive way to fix the toxicity issue of Overwatch (but could be excluded for like the first 100 lvls or something so new players won’t get hit hard with bad queue times when they haven’t even gotten the chance to build up their endorsement level).
I think there should be a ranked QP where you play with Players that have the same Rank as you, but you don‘t actually lose/gain sr
Yes for sure lol. Quick play has become kinda bad for practicing
i died at
"we can barely handle bastion in silver how can we handle..."
*interrupts*
"BastionMain himself" 🤣
The concept of rank is based on knowledgeable and executable tactics. The more people you have that can mechanically perform the necessary mechanics for tactics to work. The higher the percentage of winning.
I finally took the time to climb and made it from 1790 (silver) to 2600 (platinum)
God I hate the “just for fun” argument. Play quick play if you want to play for fun, you have to look at it as you are preventing your teammates from playing for rank because you want to play for fun in the wrong mode. You run into those people in almost every rank (I’ve been Silver to GM) and it always pisses me off.
Honestly I feel the opposite but maybe that's why I'm stuck in Masters and can't get any higher. It's just a video game, don't be an *sshole, try your best and treat it as such.
If you're not actually getting paid for it, it's not worth the emotional investment or treating it like a job. Regardless of what you do there's going to be some angry nerd that screams at you regardless of your pick. You have to go with what you enjoy and do your best to be nice to your teammates.
Will Wunsche again this is what quickplay is for, the entire concept of ranked is meaningless with the argument that it should just be for fun. You can not be overly invested emotionally but still be trying to grind for personal satisfaction. I enjoy overwatch and want to get better competitively, why does it make me an angry nerd to do so?
@@austinfigueroa4851 not saying your an angry nerd or that it's wrong to enjoy grinding and getting better I certainly do too. But besides that point in the own developer discussions and threads they talk about "competitive" as being currently intended as a game mode for people to come home and play to destress after a long day of work.
I enjoy and love the much higher difficulty of higher ranked competitive but there's too many variables to take it seriously like a job. When I want to tryhard I play scrims and join tournaments, I've been on three different teams and played in GGNA.
"Quickplay" isn't casual play it's _quick._ Current competitive mode is simply a slightly longer mode with a slightly altered ruleset. You're never going to get paid by it unless you start offering some kind of product(content) that can be used to pass advertisements, wether that be an OWL match as a pro player, a coaching session, or a streamer/TH-cam creator. Most of those recommend you be at least GM but of course that's not all encompassing.
If you are in my rank while trying very hard and i can stay in this rank while i just play for fun
what difference does it make in the end? I’m still playing good enough to be in this rank with you
honestly the matchmaking is pretty good in overwatch unless you deliberately try to sabotage it
so if you are in that rank you probably deserve it
and honestly i play best when i don’t care that much about the game and every time i have a chill team that has a good time together i win
of course this doesn’t count if you think playing for fun means just throwing the game
most people think it’s fun to win so they try to win and play good without being tryhard and do literally everything possible to win
that’s what i call just for fun
@@willwunsche6940 if you're in Masters you're probably not who he's talking about. Even if you're "just having fun", you play with a level of self awareness. The issue is people who say they "want to have fun" and feed constantly. We all get steamrolled. That's not fun
Bame1 is just having fun and always has a smile on his face
Really good topics, hope to attend one of these one day. Cheers!
pog for including bame1
Why is it that you never hear about people that understand all the intricate aspects of Overwatch but are only playing for fun lol
Because you're not paying attention? Sleepy seems like on obvious, extreme example of exactly that. Dafran is on and off between tryharding and trolling. There are many more this is just a question of how intricate understanding of the game do you require and how you define fun, because for many people like xqc find having a collective in which to try your absolute best to win the game has been the most fun many gamers have ever had.
There seems to be a misconception that's been implied in the "Playing For Fun vs Playing To Win" discussion. Seemingly; peoople take "Playing To Win" entails getting angry; screaming into your mic, and slamming your desk when you lose which is mind-boggling to me; and I think that mainly stems from what's "become acceepted / the norm" in North America (not the servers, but the actual continent), Europe, etc. As a result of that, saying things like, "It's just a game" is somehow inherently "opposite" to this mentality which is further boggling to me and makes the misconception even more difficult to identify for most.
Slamming the desk, screaming, throwing tantrums, etc -- while losing has nothing to do with "Playing Competitively" or "Playing to Win" or "Being Try-hard and Sweaty" -- That's just being a sore loser/child who generally has a difficulty with handling their emotions. If you look at professional athletes in any sport, you'd see that when they lose, they often use it as a means to try to do better next time and very rarely do they "throw tantrums"; even if they felt like they were robbed in the lost (Stoicism is actually very common in competitive sports for athletes and it's something you should honestly pick up if you're generally trying to do something competitively). Playing competitively is not "symonous" with having those types of reactions and promoting it as such just enforces the misconception. In a loss, you could just as easily use it as a means to do better by revising your own footage, finding some type of training program, or seeking aid/advice from someone else as well. It doesn't mean you have to be toxic and/or a screaming child throwing a tantrum or something.
Conversely; saying things like, "It's just a game" is insulting to people who're genuinely trying hard at the thing. It doesn't matter what it means to you and how Carry (or Cari? I'm not sure on the spelling) claims that, "You're not going to remember the one game you lost last year to reach Diamond" is entirely false because some people do remember those things if it truly mattered (or was in a spectacular enough of a fashion). Saying such assinine things like that is akin to telling someone aspiring to be an artist, "It's just art" or a musician, "It's just music". It's basically shitting on all of their efforts and aspirations as to how far they've come and what they're trying to achieve.
I'll also add that having "baseless optimism" is something that should be considered as even more troublesome than just being "toxic" simply because of the nature of it. It genuinely irks me when people say positive things like, "Don't worry, we got this" after getting roll in a fight because it's basically them trying to shirk away from addressing the issues that must exist for us to have just gotten rolled over in the fight. It's the most silly passive-aggressive thing a person can do that will cause you to losee the game 9 times out of 10 simply because they're too scared to sit down and discuss what went wrong in the last fight and how to improve it/correct it. Not only then do you most likely lose that game, but no one learns anything afterwards and goes into the next game to potentially repeat the SAME mistakes.
Oh, and for what it's worth; I genuinely think Competitive should obviously be for the "Try-Hard" and "Sweaty" Players because, it's as the name implies -- "Competitive". If you're genuinely just looking for fun; go to Quickplay. I personally wish Blizzard had a harsher stance on this; and honestly, they should considering that your SR / Rank plays a part in their "Path to Pro" stuff, but they have yet to do so. Failing that, you'd think they would at least allow "truly competitive modes" or something for those of us who're - ironically - osctracized for playing a Competitive Mode... Competitively (through 3rd party systems or an in-game tournament mode or something) but that too, has yet to happen.
I agree with everything, I wish that competitive didnt have golden guns and that would most likely divide the playerbase to properly go quickplay vs competitive
I agree with most of what you said but I have to disagree slightly with the baseless optimism part.
As someone who is guilty of doing exactly what you described it doesn't come from avoidance of addressing problems. It comes from trying to keep team morale in check.
Too many people have the impression that getting rolled on round one means the game is over and essentially resort to throwing out of frustration. A little positivity can go a long way in terms of getting people to continue putting in the effort to win.
I don't really think blizzard should drive for competitive to be this exclusive af club of people with one specific "this is how the game is supposed to be played" -mentality as it would easily have god knows what side effects.
But what I do think they should do is add a premade queue/tournament feature as it would shift all of the burden from them to players when it comes to figuring out who want's to play what kinda version/style of overwatch.
@@soapbiter36577 Theres nothing that says you can't give constructive criticism in a positive tone as opposed to baseless optimism. That would go a much longer way overall than the alternative. Saying things like, "I think if we can just manage our C/Ds better and focus their flankers as they come in, we got this. They're just relying on their Genji / Doomfist to get value so let's just play slower, wait for them to come to us, then rekt them" -- By saying that, you've done 3 things all at once:
1) Identified a problem
2) Given a solution
3) Encouraged the team to try it
@@markussavolainen This seems like some other misconception of "Try-Hard" Players. Very few of us genuinely think there's only "one way" the game is supposed to be played and considering that we exist at all ranks, it's safe to assume that we all experience "different metas". Rather; all we want is for people to approach the game with the same mentality of trying to win - that does not mean that we're going to try to force people onto a specific composition. That's just being silly; especially at the "Metal Ranks" where people don't even understand why certain compositions exist (e.g., lots of people in Platinum thinks the core focus of Orisa / Sigma is the two shields; not the C/Ds of Halt and Accretion).
Truly competitive players also would focus first on themselves and improvement in general rather than how someone else is playing or their Hero. If you glance through some of these comments, I'm sure you'll find others who said they've found more success having the right mentality with how they approach the game than worrying/fussing themselves over what Heroes their teammates are playing -- It's pointless. Control and worry about the things you can affect; not the ones you can't. But that doesn't mean you want the others on your team to "half-ass" the game for the sake of their amusement.
And once again; if the mode literally branded, "Competitive" isn't supposed to be... Well... Competitive; why even have other game-modes? You could as well strip away everything and have the one mode at that point if it's somehow not for the actual competitive playerbase.
Regardless of your rank you should put in you best effort in competitive. Some people don't have as high of a skill ceiling.. Doesn't mean they should have their games trolled or made careless in Competitive.
They need a full length quick play mode. The only QP that feel good are control maps
I've got considerable experience in the 1500 to 2400 range, and IMHO nothing even comes close to the misery of ~1800ish Silver. Not sure exactly why that's the case, but it's both more difficult and exponentially more toxic than all other areas I've been at.
My best guess is that it's where people actually become cognizant of basic mistakes in the game, and vastly over-estimate their own ability. Put another way, it's lots of players who can explain what shouldn't be done but aren't actually good enough to not do it.
The objective is to win, the goal is to have fun
I only lost my masters game because someone was jumping off the map. So yeah ranked doesnt mean anything other than more gold gun points.
Overwatch should have a 3rd party ranked system like faceit
I don't think GM's can really understand how annoying smurfs are. Bronze players need to start buying gm accounts and doing gm to bronze challenges
Haha that would be funny!
I think what could be really fun and competitive was if they created a 6 stack mode competitive in overwatch. They take the average sr of the players so that’s the sr of their team. So that way people can play in a team focused environment and gms can play with friends.
What's next the great platform debate
I'm 2.9k support and have noticed that matches feel very out of my control. One match will be so ridiculously easy and another will be so impossible! I kinda feel like you climb if you just play a lot even if you are bad. There are bad players who climb lol. I have played the game a lot but probably put about 200 hours into comp
I think sleepy, the FORMER OWL PLAYER, is the perfect divide of playing for fun and playing for wins
I feel like at this point the balance patches are so severe, like how genji got a huge buff that was way too much, because they need to have them instead of other content. I think that the overwatch team could just be making such huge changes to make up for the fact that there's nothing new coming out and they don't want players to get bored and leave.
I don't know if they talk about this in the video, I'm only half way through so sorry if this idea is nothing new.
Great ideas as always
13:40 It's really not. Let's just call out the elephant in the room that for some reason is being actively ignored thus far. There is literally AN _IDENTICAL_ GAME MODE to competitive that you can play if you just want to shoot the shit, it still takes your rank and MMR into account, it just doesn't actively display ranks or count towards your SR gain/loss; it's called quick play.
So when an identical mode to comp exists SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of not being try hard, how is it fair to say 'this person smurfs and actively harms *_11_* other people's match who _are_ playing to win because that 1 person doesn't want to play with their team and instead do whatever the fuck they want' is understandable behavior? Why does that 1 person get to fuck up 11 other people's game because they could be bothered to switch accounts but not game modes? Like is this some moon logic going on here or am I missing something? It genuinely confuses me that they are all pretending that competitive is the *_ONLY_* game type in Overwatch when we all know it isn't.
edit: I don't care so much about the SR, win or loss just trying your best in comp is all that should matter. It just confuses me incredibly that they are just not acknowledging that comp isn't the only game mode, so to say it's fine for people to fuck around in a game mode that is _specifically_ intended to be taken more seriously when there is an identical one just sitting there intended for people to play for shits and giggles is just bizarre to me.
Thank you, as a console player I can confirm there is another gamemode like competitive that takes rank and mmr but still matches you with level 18's and 200's that can easily 1v6 my team with no option to flex to help
I lowkey wish I had scrolled down further and saw your comment first before commenting on more-or-less this same thing on this exact same topic.
I mean, they kind of addressed their reasoning but ultimately I think it boils down to the fact that you shouldn't care about it too much because it's a problem with another player and you should be very focused only on yourself.
The mindset of blaming others is a huge mental block in my opinion. It literally doesn't matter if you lose a game if you become better for it. Just improve and assess your weaknesses from every loss. You get a shitter one match and the other team will get him next match. These are variables and YOU are the constant.
@@libertyprime9307 Traits of Stoicism is definitely something you should definitely try to implement; there's no doubt about that. Nevertheless, it doesn't take away from the fact that as the OP said, they all definitely skirted around the elephant in the room: Quickplay exists, and treating the actual Competitive mode as anything but is a problem.
Your so wrong it shouldnt be funny but it is. Quick play is QUICK play for a reason. It cuts corners on match making. Sure it tries for good mmr match ups but i cant tell you the amount of times as a low plat i matched against diamond-master players. To be fair i didnt lose all those matches, but still. Match maker for qp is far less concered about true fair match making and more get this person in a game.
As a plat player, I am usually quite calm but the only thing that pisses me off is when someone on my team spam thanks, it’s gets me so mad when someone blames me for their mistakes.
The one trick argument is difficult because on one hand if you only play doomfist and can maintain a certain rank, then the team shouldn't want you on a different hero for fear that you'll play any other choice 1-2 ranks lower than doom. But regardless someone is going to tunnel vision that doomfist point every lost teamfight until the game ends and then chalk it up to "we had a one-trick gg". Even games that go down to a tied game last second overtime someone will still say "gg we had a braindead ball one-trick" when in reality you were one teamfight or even 2-3 kills away from winning the entire game.
The whole system is difficult to cope with, but the only thing you can do is focus on your own game. Plan for how your role can adjust if your dps won't hitscan pharah, plan a strategy for if your team is going hog/ball and won't swap. The way I see it you can spend all your time in ranked finding someone to blame other than yourself, or you can spend half that time improving your own play and solving the issue a better way
one problem i seem to have in abt mid gold is you either get put with plats, or silvers (and its really easy to tell which one it is if everyones unranked.) Also, i always seem to lose when i get put in the silver games, and win a lot in the higher ranked games, and i feel like one of the bigger problems is in silver winning fights is completely random, as people stagger all game and dont group. As, for the higher ranked games its much more coordinated and i win more consistently.
Edit: I just wanted to add this in for people not in low ranks how its like... 90% of the games is either the enemy team steamrolling you or your team steamrolling the enemy team. I rarely ever have those close games or back and forth games where both teams play great and its like a 20-30 min game, most games end in like 10 minutes.
Nott Dreamz yeah same I’ve played in an all diamond game and at some points even looked the best on my team even though I’m plat the game is far easier when you get more support if me as sigma gets a good amount of heals u can pop off and even carry games in not trying to be cocky but even still I find it pretty easy to plat with diamonds and harder with plats even though it should theoretically be the opposite
Kinda the opposite for me. I am 3800 and sometimes I get diamond games which I always seem to win and sometimes I get GM - Top 500 games which I always seem to lose. Probably because 4200 - 4400 games are being played at a much faster pace and players will actually pressure there enemy out of good positions. Unlike in diamond where I can stand on highground with max charge as Zarya and melt the backline for free.
@@grim7048 yeah as for silver and plat there's such a big skill gap where winning games in silver is pretty much luck and the plat games are so much easier and fun to win
Blizzard says they take personal performance into account
Those 5% stats can be incredibly misleading. For example, it is much easier to have a higher critical scoped accuracy on widow in plat than it is in gm. Because plat players tend to have decent mechanics, but bad game sense. GM players are probably aware of widow and have good movement to avoid headshots, but plat players have bad movement and positioning leading for them to get picked off easily. Stats only mean so much when those stats are acquired against different levels of skill. And you do NOT need to be playing at a masters or gm level to climb to diamond. In my experience climbing to diamond, which I've done a few times across accounts, you will get there eventually if you belong there. Of course, if you are a 3k player playing in 2.8k, there will be a few games where you do everything you can and still lose. Those happen when you are somewhat close to the rank you belong in. However, the general trend will always be positive. Play for an extended period of time and you WILL climb to where you belong.
@@awesomeness0759 Individual stats can be misleading, but as a whole, not very much. I'm not saying that if a guy has 30% scoped crit on Widow (the same as Kephrii) that he should be GM, but if he has high scoped and scoped crit, high final blows per 10, high final blow to death ratio, high damage per 10, golds every match, then the game should be able to say, "Hmm, this guy's winrate is only 52%, but he's mollywhopping his ELO, maybe we can move him up 250SR and see if he's still dominating." Far as I'm concerned, if you're the MVP of every match you play or even the majority of them, you're in the wrong rank. Also, I'm not saying you need to play at a Masters level to climb to Diamond. You just have to play that well if you want to climb to Diamond without playing many hundreds of matches, because that's the nature of a 6v6 game.
@@agroed Its a mmr based ranked system obviously you need to grind after your mmr solidifies? Thats a concept that has been around for decades at this point, if you wanna climb a rank a day you just have a wrong concept of the game.
@@50733Blabla1337 Exactly the point. You'd think by now we'd be able to put people in their proper rank without multiple hundreds of matches.
@@agroed Thats not how any of this works tho. Data is only accurate in mass that fact wont change, either you have insane rank fluctuation which would fuck with the games balance or you have to grind which needs determination.
I think one major problem in all ranks is map awareness and building a stradegy around said maps
Mmr reset would start out completely shit, but I think itd help a slight amount. It wouldnt take years to stabilize, it would take each player something like 200-300 games to get to where they belong. That's like 2 seasons for most people who play comp.
JKennyPro I used to also think that but I’ve seen a lot of “unranked to GM” videos to know that’s not the case. In almost all those videos the GM player will typically get placed in Plat mayyyybe Diamond. I don’t think the way blizzard calculates your rank is all that great. There’s just too many factors that can’t be tracked with a number (example: shotcalling an incoming enemy ult and the team avoids it) Those types of big brain plays just can’t be tracked numerically.
From what I can tell, the step from Diamond to Masters is larger than from Plat to Diamond. Maybe it's that I'm on Xbox, but in Diamond, it seems that the picking the meta is a lot less important. In Masters, picking the meta is a lot more important.