The Doctor Who Episode That Redeemed Moffat
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.พ. 2023
- Listen is an absolute masterpiece of Doctor Who and here's why...
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#DoctorWho #Series8 #Review - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
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The fridge horror that seized me at the end of Series 9, when I realized that had Clara and Danny d*ying, thereof implies that any and all of their descendants will vanishes into existence...
@16:58 to@17:03 I loooove when people subtly keep roasting Chris Chibnall. 😏
An idea that came to me while watching this is that, in a way, the Audience is the monster of this episode. A Constantly watching fixture undetectable to everyone around them.
i'm at mid point... do you ever mention Orson Pink ends up not existing in Clara's timeline since Danny pink dies?
I personally wish the mainstream public would have not suddenly dipped after smith. Capaldi is so underrated by the general public, that episodes like this, Flatline and so many more get under appreciated and Capaldi and company deserve way better
I hated Smith. Ten for life
@@Uhohlisa9
Love Capaldi!
@@UhohlisaAs an empath I sense you dislike Matt Smith
@@NostalgicOccultist nice scout loadout
The complete absence of information we have about the monster from Listen is so fundamentally terrifying I never want it to be explored again. Letting your own imagination fill in the gaps is always going to be way scarier and I’m glad Moffat understood this.
Indeed.
I suspect that they do not pay to much attention to some of the dressing of those bottle episodes. But yes, I am absolutely with you, the less we know, the better. Otherwise we get the overmilked Angels, or Daleks and Cybermen in every series.
@@larsg.2492 I hate that the weeping angels suffer. Daleks and Cyberdudes (weird) are overexposed
I feel exactly the same about Midnight.
It is written so well that the impact isn't lessened too.
I just feel any episode where you just let Capaldi like off his leash and just let him do his thing acting wise and he shines and just pulls focus and does what he does best are always amazing. Capaldi needs episodes and scripts like these where he can fully flex his acting chops.
Of course.
Heaven Sent is a testament to this fact.
@@agm5424 and Mummy on the Orient Express, my personal favorite episode of series 8.
The same applies to Jenna Coleman I think. Any episode where she is allowed to act her ass off is appreciated by me.
Credit where credit is due, Moffat does a good job of exploiting simpler primal things to make incredibly effective fear, the lost child in the doctor dances, the dark in the library, blinking in blink. Say what you will about him as a showrunner, but he can do some remarkable things with simple concepts
You mean the empty child and the doctor dances?
@@maouliamediaofficial "the lost child" was me referring to the child itself not the episode title, but I can see the confusion. Indeed, that's the monster across both those episodes
The where’s Waldo joke is actually great because how he jokes about looking for him even though you’ll never find it because it was never there is LITERALLY what’s he’s doing this whole episode with the “creatures”
Another recurring theme in this episode is Clara being very good with children harkening back to her nanny days. She's essentially being a nanny to Danny and the Doctor for a short time.
She's also a teacher...... The fuck are you on about?
I think Moffatt was a great episode writer and a decent show runner. Episodes like this and Heaven Sent stand out. The thing with him was, he was always ambitious. Some stuff he tried just didn’t come off, but he was always trying whether you liked it or not. It never felt phoned in.
He did write Blink after all
Personally, I think this is the second best Capaldi episode. Heaven Sent just beats it.
Heaven Sent is imbeatable.
World enough and time, flatline, oxygen, under the lake/ before the flood and face the raven I do rank above this, but I love this episode aswell
@@jumbojaba1235 no! Heaven Sent is sublime 🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷
@@CashelOConnolly oh no I agree definitely I meant that all the episodes i listed I regard better than listen in my opinion
100% agreed. Listen was my absolute favourite until Moffat outdid himself a year later with Heaven Sent. Hell Bent became my third favourite.
I loved this one too, because I love when something horrifying remains unknown -- What the heroes were up against, what it is capable of, and how to counter it, are just as unknown by the end as they were at the beginning. It's sorta like if you only took the first half of Predator and then had the survivors escape without the climactic showdown.
Indeed.
In retrospect the idea or concept of an episode that focused on the Doctor’s imagination run wild in lieu of any actual threat was really memorable.
Listen is one of my favourites. I think it's one of Steven Moffat's best work on Doctor Who. The ending which Clara talks to The Doctor as a child whilst he is sleeping and tells him that fear is a superpower really won me over.
I'm having a real tough time in life at the moment and the Series 8 reviews are great and really giving me something to look forward to each week. Thank you Harbo
Same here, hope things get better for you soon mate
Hope both of you are doing well, if you ever want to chat. Reach out
I always loved season 8 with Clara & Twelve I don’t know why people hate either of these characters
I always thought the crying young doctor in the cabin was the doctor after he looked into the time vortex and choose to run
Feels good watching this after I picked up the complete 9th-12th Doctors DVD set at Wal-Mart last weekend, and I can finally go back and re-visit these episodes as you're actually reviewing them. 😊
HBO Max
"Listen" is a spectacular piece of psychological drama and one of my favorite Twelfth Doctor episodes! This episode really highlights the acting abilities of both Peter Capaldi and Jenna Coleman. The beautiful and gentle musical score by Murray Gold during Clara's speech at the finale always makes me teary-eyed. 😢
seriously surprised that you didn't mention that the "fear makes companions of us all" speech clara gives is almost the same as the one the first doctor gives to barbara, down to that exact quote.
I think my favourite part of this episode is the use of Hartnell’s quote “fear makes companions of us all”
The audio and photography in this episode is a masterpiece! Best with headphones to hear all the quiet creepy sounds.
I just really glad that Chinibal didn't bring The Listen creature back to "clarification" about what it is.. like that shitshow that he did with the Doctor past 🤡.
Like the creature of this episode, sometimes not knowing what it is, or the past is so much better. The mystery is the soul of the deal.
We really need to cleanse and exorcize the Chinballania off of Doctor Who.
Getting people to learn that the Timeless Child was an infant member of the Great Vampire race, that Techla and Rassilon used the extradimensional alien in order to improve the Shobogans's lingering immortality potential in order to engineer the regneration cycle as we know, but that somehow its memory gets embedded into the Loom alongside the Other's DNA, hence why both the Doctor (the Other's presumed reincarnation) and the Fugitive Doctor had memories of the Djinn during her many lifetimes, memories that get only triggered when the Doctor regenerated into his first female incarnation and could only access half-subconsciously to some degree of the Timeless Child's genetic memory when holding morbid thoughts or segs-shifting (as it is canonically known, pre-series 10, that Time Lords only regenerates into the opposite segs but when tbey experienced intense su*cidal thoughts or attempted self-deletion onto themselves, as it already happened with an incarnation of one of the many Unbound Doctors in Big Finish plays) .
Whom to the Fugitive Doctor, she can be retconned as a future incarnation of Donna Noble, who regenerated into a middle aged black woman, mayhaps because of her obvious preferences toward black men, but somewhere along the way has forgotten she was a Metacrisis Human-Time Lady hybrid as the regeneration/s further warped her still-Human mind into misbelieving she was an early incarnation of the Doctor. This might gives more credence to the speculation about which the Time Lady who helped the Doctor save the Universe against Rassilon in the special Christmas episodes might be none only a future incarnation of Donna, but the _Doctor's mother_ herself- which may explains why some novels and stories hints about the Doctor's father or older brother or cousin (or was he both??) spousing a Human female, when it is clearly specified that the Doctor's mother was Gallifreyan. However, it was also speculated that the Doctor was half-Human from his mother's side...
@@ptolemeeselenion1542or maybe we could just ignore it and let it fade into history like the “half-human” thing from the tv movie. Also, it’s not like Lungbarrow was much better.
Such a powerful performance from Capaldi imo.
And I really loved the whole concept if this episode and the way we never truely get an answer.
Great episode!
Moffat is the god of Horror when it comes to Doctor Who. That's where I think Moffat should return to. Guest writing it's highlights
This was the first episode of the Moffat era where I really connected to the Doctor and the companion on more than a superficial level. Everything else up to this point felt bombastic to me. I really enjoyed the pulled back, subtler storytelling that happened from this point on. I would like to see more Moffat projects operating on this level, as I often feel his characterizations and themes get overwhelmed by AND THEN THE BIG SPACE LIZARD KNOCKED DOWN THE CITY WITH HIS LASER TEETH. It feels like he doesn’t trust how good he is to let his work breathe and have moments of silence. Appropriate, then, that my two favorite episodes of his era are this one and Heaven Sent.
I actually found this story interesting but scary. I do like the Awkard date with Clara and Danny, and it was funny and the monster we would never know what it was which makes it more mysterious. I do like Clara meeting The Doctor as a child and that was a touching moment.
I absolutely slept on this story when it first came out and it's only upon rewatch a few weeks ago did I finally give it another chance and it completely won me over.
I don’t think I could do anything even remotely resembling sleep after this episode…
"This is a universal human experience"
People who sleep in traditional Japanese housing, whose beds have no underneath to hide: "Lol, lmao, even."
There’s plenty of Japanese folklore about other elements in their culture that are analogous
I'm glad this episode is seeing the recognition it deserves. What a banger! Great analysis as usual too.
series 8 reappraisal is my lifeblood. it is not my favourite season of Who, but it absolutely is the most interesting to discuss.
I love all the moments with 12 and clara that show just how deep their trust is. One of them could tell the other to jump and they'd say how high.
Even the clockwork droid was hidden under Reinette's bed
I didn’t really notice how scary this episode what on first watching, after this review i kept imagining this episode and it’s really unsettling.
This episode also made me remember what i love about dr who, making the creatures unsettling, no cheap jump scares and making the monster look “cool” dr who has inspiration from the writers to make horror, while still keeping it a family show
Beautiful
The fridge horror that seized me at the end of Series 9, when I realized that had Clara and Danny d*ying, thereof implies that any and all of their descendants will vanishes into existence...
8:48 When I first watched Listen I was pretty sure the creature under the blanket was a Sontaran because of the irony of the Doctor mentioning Sontarans just before and then it turns out to be true. I'm nit so sure now but it's still possible
I watched S1-6 when I was a child and have regularly gone back over S1-4 as they’ve always been just so special to me. And in light of Ten and Donna coming back I thought I’d watch the whole lot beginning to end. And let’s just say I did not expect to get scared by another episode. This story took me completely by surprise! (not to mention I was alone at night when I watched it). Loved it. S8 has been good so far!
Undeniably one (if not THE one) of my favorite episodes in the show's history. I come back to it whenever I wanna remember just how special Capaldi's Doctor was. Well, this and Heaven Sent. I will never get over the 12th. Capaldi will always be a legend.
So... Is it agreed that the timeless child ruins all the cannon?
Yes
One thing that I feel is great about the Clara and the barn scene is you know that in the end of the day, if many of the companions ended up in her shoes, they would’ve probably done the same thing cos they know, that is who the Doctor is.
I have been waiting for you to make this video for about a year, thank you so much
I love how you explain iy. I loved this episode a lot. I loved the 12th. He's my favorite bc of the way he thinks and approaches things. How he questions everything in a nice clear way
I heard someone say ‘what’s that in the mirror in the corner of your eye.’ ‘It’s the little girl you put in there.’
If Moffat comes back to write some stuff in the new era I wouldn’t mind that, while I do enjoy his era as showrunner, he is at his best when he’s writing standalone episodes
Just goes to show that Moffat shines in his more one-time special episodes rather than the overarching series wide stories. He can take something so simple and mundane and bring out the worst fears within them: blinking, the dark, your own imagination. I kind of think that Moffat maybe should’ve stayed writing in the occasional episode rather than taking over as showrunner, it was kind of a huge task to take over after Russel T. Davies’ masterpiece of a reboot series and Moffat just couldn’t really hit the mark. But it’s episodes like these that really really shine in Moffat’s era.
Maybe the real monsters are the friends we made along the way.
Also, children of earth
😂😂
I can't wait for you to cover The Girl Who Died.
I've managed to find this channel just as you were covering my favorite doctor, and that one's my favorite of his.
Watched this episode the other day and loved it. I initially didn't like seeing the Doctor as a child as I prefer Galifrey and the Doctor's childhood to be shrouded in mystery and only spoken about like in the RTD era. I feel the image of Galifrey painted in your head as the Tenths Doctor describes it to Martha is far more powerful than anything that can be put to screen. Although when I realised it was the barn from the Day of the Doctor I didn't mind it as I feel the 50th anniversary did a fantastic job of including Galifrey without spoiling the mystery of it with all scenes at night with the city mostly destroyed
I choose to believe there is an entity and the Doctor was right in some regard and it was the same or similar entity as Midnight’s.
We know there is from the intro the chalk was moved rolled across the floor and listen was written on the board a direct answer to his question
@@livingglowstick1337
The blanket monster too. Children don’t act like. That’s either a monster or a small adult.
tbh, I both like that the episode shows that even the doctor is afraid of something through the barn scene, and that clara does it, but not together if that makes sense? because clara does get overimportant in the doctor's life through being the reason he saves gallifrey instead of destroying it, the whole impossible girl story arc, and this, none of which are necessarily bad in themselves it's just the combination that irks me
I absolutely love this analysis, I already lived this episode but it's pointed out the fact all of it might be in the doctors head and it has really elevated it
You should read the book, "Choose the Future: Terror Moon," by Trevor Baxebdale. Its a choose your own adventure Doctor Who book with Silence of the Library and Listen vibes
MOFFAT NEVER NEEDED REDEEMING, HE OVERSAW PURE MAGIC
Have been watching Harbo for about a year and just realised I hadn't subscribed! Just a reminder for other people to check!
What if the creature is whatever the camera man is in the universe, a creature that’s invincible, can’t be interacted with
Lots of episodes grow on me but I have always loved this episode
i’ve always seen the episode as there was no secret creature. The only reason the doctor is afraid (and thus us) is because of Clara instilled that fear into the doctor as a child and possibly creating a paradox.
I'm here earlier than normal. About 2 - 3 minutes of the public release.
Octopuses have perfect camouflage.
This episode was great in exploring the concept of creatures being our constant companion throughout our lives that we don’t know about. And these monsters being responsible for that feeling we get when we feel we’re not alone. That’s terrifying.
This is also one of those episodes where if you truly see Peter Capaldi shine as the doctor, when you let capaldi have the room, he can truly elevate a script
However what let’s this episode down is Danny pinks descendent. If Danny dies how does can his descendent exist?
And of course in typical Moffat fashion he decides overpower Clara even more by having her interact with the doctors past, specifically him as a child and influencing his ideas of hiding monster because “look how great Clara is!”🙄 🤦♀️. As if stamping her all over the doctors timeline in The Name of the Doctor wasn’t enough l.
also i like how accurate the doctor got at landing the tardis in small spaces XD (or on people XD)
Looking at the creatures blurred out face, it kind of looks human, but the eyes are shadowed over. Creepy.
The opening to Listen really shows the madman in a box
Stubagful's reaction to this episode: "It's like Moffat's brain is so big that it fits in this canyon. Then it will evolve upwards like a Pokemon until it's the size of the moon."
Yeah I rewatched this the other night and it is still batshit terrifying
While I'm only in episode 9 of my series 8 watch, so far, series 8 has been one of my favourites, possibly even reaching top 3 series of mine. (Those being series 3, 1 and 4 in that order from number 3 to number 1)
Moffat has a lot of issues, but when he’s on, he’s REALLY on
I think Moffat was ahead of his time. The Loki series proves it.
My head canon for why the 11th and 12th doctors are a bit idiotic. Examples are when 11 is naked infront of Clara’s family and when 12 said “where’s Wally?” And how those are years he’ll never get back is either him just screwing about because he’s basically half way through his life so it’s his mid life crisis or he’s doing it to lighten the mood
To be honest, every Doctor has their moments of being oblivious and clueless. Remember the Eye of the Millennium Wheel scene in Rose?
Yes but because the show needs to lighten the mood
i was jumping a meter away from my bed for a solid month after this episode. no dangling feet absolutely not
Lovely video and interpretation of a great episode. Seriously well done.
Personally I don't like this episode that much. Because we know so little about the monsters we never see them do anything harmful so they don't feel like a threat, and the Doctor and Clara spend the whole episode going to places to investigate them, so if any danger was present they could just leave. It doesn't feel like anything is at stake in this episode.
The character study parts of the episode are good but I feel it all would have been served better if the Doctor and Clara were forced to deal with the monsters rather than actively looking for them. Because as the way it is if the doctor has to go to great lengths to even find a suggestion of the monsters I find it difficult to feel threatened or scared by them.
This episode was not to scare you, it was to learn about the unknown.
Why does there have to be stakes? I like the idea that there isn’t actually a monster, or that the monster is the doctor’s fear its self
@@jakequaza3567 Stakes keeps the episode feeling tense and make it easier to stay invested.
The episode can still have stakes whilst having the monster revealed to be fake/just the doctor's fear. Stakes that are later revealed to be false are still stakes for the purposes of pacing
Listen had me hooked from the opening speech.
I've always said Moffat should have gone into horror- and this episode proves my point. It's such an amazing story and one I can't help but revisit.
Thank goodness this monster never attacked the ninth doctor, those ears would have heard everything instantly.
You might just have sold me on this story. I've long seen the praise for it, but never quite understood the praise when the mystery to me seemed a hollow one in service of (admittedly good) monologuing. But reframing it as from the perspective of the Doctor's conspiratorial mind running away and the empathy exposed during is a really good treatment of the narrative.
Listen is my all time favorite episode, it's the best 12 episode hands down, and Moffat's best Who episode
It was a horrible idea to watch this just before going to sleep wasn't it?
16:59
gee i wonder what he could be talking about here
The creature knocking. A creature that survives the end of the universe. Kinda sounds like the thing that mimicked everyone on the 10ths Holiday
Aw. I think I definitely under appreciated a lot of the last couple of seasons of Moffat's run. Capaldi was an outstanding actor as was Coleman and there were some great scripts.
I think I'd just grown tired of all the poor "i'm just doing this because I can and don't need it to make sense or earn it" things that Moffat did by that point that even when it happened at a micro level it just took me out of the story completely.
I think i would really like to revisit some of these episodes now eithout the baggage of his entire run as I think I'd enjoy them a lot more now.
It’s been a while since I’ve watched this episode. I don’t scare easily when it comes to scary, lives and tv shows, but this episode terrified me, so I don’t watch it. Even though I am an adult, I’m still afraid of the dark, and it’s never helped with my active imagination. So naturally I’ve always had this fear of something under the bed, which is enhanced in pure quietness. I hate being in a quite room, I just get so uncomfortable. I need to have white noise or music, just some kind of sound playing that isn’t just the ticking of a clock. My mum finds that part of me a bit weird, since I always have my headphones in with something playing if I’m not having a conversation with someone. So when I’m in my dark bedroom, and it’s silent, no whirring of my fans or anything, I can’t even get out of bed to go pee. Because something has to be under my bed. My bed is creaking even though I have not moved, it’s there. Something fell off my shelf, it’s wondering around. I do think me drawing what I see in the shadows of my room, does help, if I’m unable to have anything to listen to whilst I fall asleep.
The episode does an amazing job of being nerve wracking without anything sinister actually going on.
I agree I found the first few eps of Capaldi terrible then this one was good and it stayed on a similar level for most of the rest of his era
NOTHING WILL BEAT HEAVEN SENT 🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷🔷
I wonder, in the scenario where the doctor is correct, and the things in the episode are really creatures (or even if the creature that hides perfectly exists, and it just isn't in the episode,), could they be the same species as the Midnight entity?, since if it was the monster under the blanket, it shows it does have a physical body (like the midnight creature may have had based on the engineer seeing something before it closed)
I didn`t mind seeing the Doctors childhood. I just wondered why it looks like he grew up in the wild west. Didn´t look like Gallifrey.
Plot Twist: it was Sutehk all along
I know the creature not having a name makes it more terrifying, but I like to call it Nothing. No one truly knows what Nothing is, it could be the lack of all things, or it could be something unimaginable
There's a SCP that's literally that concept in the game
There is also the subtextual lesson to actually "Listen" to other people and give an actual attempt to understand where they are coming from.
I love the Sidestory. Clara trying to have a normal life but still have adventures in the TARDIS. Its my favorite Era. When she comes back wet and there`s no rain :) . just fun.
Is this redemption BEFORE the thing he needs redeeming for? IE: Cyber-rain that creates metal around skeletons for new Cybermen which totally rewrites how the Cybermen work for the sake of his stupid idea in the later season finale? If so, then yeah, this is good, but what he's about to do in this series (and the Brigadier) isn't negated. Death in Heaven can never be redeemed. It was Chibnall level awful.
My only problem with Listen is the re-use of the barn. With all we've learned about the Doctor him living in a shack as a kid doesn't mesh well with it. He wasn't a Shobogan, he was of a Great House, to become a Time Lord. His family were "political, important" in his own words. The house of Lungbarrow, this ain't. I suppose you could argue it is on the House's lands or something but still...
Actually the REAL problem is time travelling into Gallifrey's past, which is strictly forbidden and should have caused the TARDIS no end of troubles, but that's glossed over, hand-waved for the sake of the story. Wonky.
Um, no😎
@@jayanderson9375 Yes, way 😅
@@R.senals_Arsenal 😂😂😂😂😂
@@R.senals_Arsenal yea and the episode where pink dies so how does he have decedents just flat out messes with this episode
@@wyattbarnett3877 Well, playing the devil's advocate for a sec, we don't know his family that well, he could have... 🎵Cousins, identical Cousins!🎶
It’s entirely possible that we created them on our own, just through evolutionary logic. It is always safer to assume that there is something in the tall grass, especially when it’s moving. Sure, it could be the wind blowing the grass, but what if it’s a lion? If you run away scared every time you see the grass move, you only need to be right once to validate it.
Similarly to the creatures, we invent the ghost hiding in the dark to scare ourselves, because if something is there we have saved ourselves. If we only got scared because it turned out we were wrong, we now have a fun story to tell and embellish.
My big problem with Series 8 and 9 is that that's when the BBC started making it really annoying to watch Doctor Who in the USA so I fell out of the show. Now that they're all on HBO Max and coming to Disney+ I'm able to appreciate this era for the masterpiece that it is
listen and kill the moon are amazing episodes, i can't hate on the capaldi era not one single ep, my fav doctor.
just wondering, has dr who made an uncanny valley episode before?
I actually didn’t really like this episode when I watched this. But this video has broadened my mind a little and pointed out some things I had forgotten about it that I actually like. The main reason I struggle with season 8 (and this episode) is because of 12’s apparent callousness and lack of empathy that makes it a little painful to watch. But you can’t have character development without a place to grow from so I should really appreciate this season more in future rewatches. :)
"Fear makes Companions of us all". How true that is. One thing that unites everyone is fear of the unknown. Of the the things you can't see or control. How we choose to relate to that fear is what makes good or bad, heroes or cowards, helpful or spiteful. Fear rules us all in one form or another. It can be a hidden monster under your bed 🛏 👾, the bully who lies in wait for you after school every day, jyst finding out you've lost your job and having to go home and tell your family, or the helplessness of being alone, your life spinning out of control. Fear is everywhere in our daily lives. Even when we learn to face it down we have to do it all over again the next time something unexpected happens.
Love how Clara is deconstructed here showing how she furthers the Doctor's growth and character as well as her own. She's not "Clara Who" trying to take the spotlight or importance away from him, she's trying to teach him which is natural to her being a teacher if course. Her interactions with the Doctor always becoming deeper and richer as time goes by. They need each other and she uses his own speech to inspire him as a boy when she goes to him in the barn. Their connection is so strong from the multiple interactions she's had with him throughout his many lifetimes. She sees facets in him that no other Companion can because she's seen every version of him up to 12 himself. Their interactions are so complex and deep that it goes way beyond the initial flirtation she had with 11. I love seeing the growth of the relationship and how they bond together, it's such a much more interesting dynamic than typical Doctor/ Companion relationship is.
As for Danny, he's OK on this episode. We get to see some of his back story which is good, though the one thing I can't stand is when he plops his head down on the table at the restaurant after Clara walks out on him and starts chiding himself for how he acted. That's a childish thing to do, not something I would expect an ex soldier who's been through combat would have ever done. But that's a minor nit-pick.
All in all, it's a great episode, one that really makes you think anout things. 🤔 And every so often that's what Doctor Who should make us do, look at our lives in a different way. Look and Listen! 👂
I thought the barn scene was an amazing evolution from the 50th anniversary
Once upon a time .. The end.
Is the funniest moment in the 12th doctor's series .
Along with nearly everything narvill says .
XD
In regard to "only the 12th Doctor could do this story", I could imagine this episode as a Sixth Doctor & Peri story.
*reedemed* Moffat? After the amazing series 5 - after that 50th (which we can now compare to the pain of the 60th)