The Problem with Deathless in Triangle Strategy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- In this video I outline problems I have with deathless.
I like that it is in the game, but it has visibility issues and problems with communicating its rules to the player.
Most players don't even know it exists.
-Unofficial challenge
-Most players don't even know about it
-The game poorly communicates why this is a thing to do
-The reward is kind of boring
-The game was not designed around deathless even though it is possible.
-Saccing in chess for an advantage, going over why aggression in chess is more fun
-Improving enemy AI, coordination, and abilities.
Get ICED! : ^ )
#trianglestrategy
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Deathless is absolutely ridiculous for maps where the AI just charges to death, like Chapter 8 Wolfort harbor fight, some of the battles with Svarog as your ally, and most of Roland's Ending battles. Roland's Ending gets a special mention since your ally will be Exharme, who has a horse and greater movement - only to kill himself all the faster.
Lionel hints about deathless having a secret reward when you talk to him on NG+. I thought it was a hard mode challenge but after rushing through the game for the final ending on Very Easy I was surprised to get the accessory at the end.
I agree though I find it a useless reward as I prefer the 100% chance to revive once and don’t need more and if you beat the game without dying it feels unnecessary.
That's another great point against deathless, you can just beat the game on the lowest setting and still get the reward.
Imagine if they reward player with alternative customs after deathless run... It doesn't break the game but aesthetically it's a lot more worth going for than a accessory.
I did a deathless run in my first playthrough just for the hell of it, didnt even know there was an award for it
When you do a self imposed challenge and it turns out to be an actual game mode (secretly)
they should make deathless mode cause a game over as soon as one of your units dies instead of having permadeath like in FE. that way they wouldn’t have to alter the story in order to implement the mode. I don’t know how hard that would be to add in and i know they said they aren’t doing DLC, but hopefully they do something like this in TS2 whenever that happens
So watching Avlora get dogpiled by Booker and his goons in Chapter 8 cost me the plume? Worth it.
I did deathless and I found it really tense because I didn't know what counted as a death. I later learned it's when a unit bursts into smoke, but the game never tells you.
I agree so much about gameplay vs story, if I want a good story I would read a book, watch a movie or anime or whatever, I want too play a game when I am playing a game.
I have gotten to chapter like 15 on Hard mode ive never heard anything about deathless before this video. I still dont know why I would want to do that. The game really feels designed for you to sacrifice some units in some fights to make it cleanable at least on hard. I thought it was hard enough letting people die haha
Cool to hear its in the game though oddly implemented
Couldn't relate more. Deathless would have been cool even as hidden bonus but the excecution is terrible. Here is how it could have been much, much better
1: Make two types of reward in the form of secret characters. You manage to save every green unit? Here, I don't know, Lord Symon. You manage to keep every party member alive? Here Gustaldolph. You kept everyone in the game alive? Have both. A revive item is useless if I just proved that I don't need it
2: make it feel like something you want me to do. Why would I care about saving the obvious fodder that are the two Aesfrost archers? The game doesn't aknowledge that in cutscenes. Why am I supposed to bother about Jerome? Yeah I'll get back to you, Roselle prick-
3: make it possible with an aggressive mindset. Keeping Exharme alive is fun because he is strong but frail and I must keep up with him. Saving Maxwell is boring because I have to backtrack whenever the reinforcements spawn
Deathless also feels like an afterthought considering how the game plays. What should I do in such a run? Keep Roland's identity secret and face OP Rufus in a tight space where my units die before they can move, or reveal his identity and ally myself with Giga-Chad Svarog in a map that begs me to win? Should I defend Jerome or pummel him alongside OP Rufus? Jeez I don't know, such a hard choice. I swear I beat Defend The Roselle map deathless today and I don't want to do it ever again, the idiotic wasted opportunity of a character is the most suicidal being on Norzelia, I had to use my special cards just to keep him alive, because even if he doesn't rush into Rufus+Sylvio he will charge towards the mages with no plan whatsoever. Game wants a perfect performance out of me? Then be perfect as well and design the AI units in a way that they can survive without amazing RNG, or even better, gimme full control on their actions, so if they die it's my fault alone
Imagine if they reward player with alternative customs after deathless run... It doesn't break the game but aesthetically it's a lot more worth going for than a accessory.
That would be cooler tbh. The accessory isn't even good, 50/50 chance to live can fizzle or be insane but I'd rather just have a third res earring lmao.
Great insight on the whole deathless playthrough and I must say I do agree with you
Not an unofficial challenge if there is a reward for it. It should be better advertised though. Deathless is definitely meant to be done on NG+. And there are definitely some maps that are a challenge on NG+ deathless. I’m happy it’s in the game bc otherwise the game does eventually become way to easy even on hard once you know the synergies that exist between characters.
I actually had no idea about this. When Lionell mentioned it, i thought he was specifically talking about the mental mock battles. And I was like "that makes since."
It'd be sick if doing deathless unlocked a secret character or route
@@IcedCoffeeGaming I agree. I would genuinely enjoy if there was more to do in general for this game.
I know this is an old video and it’s odd to comment on, but
To boost your point on the item being lackluster and how a item that regenerates a TP every turn would have been a better reward, not only do I entirely agree but an item like this *exists* in the game, but is locked to enemy only
I don’t understand why it’s locked to only enemies
If I recall I believe golden route demigod idore has it, which is weird considering you get no rewards after beating that fight (I didn’t get any gold or items) so that item could have been a nice reward there too
But anyway, yeah, the plume of immortality feels like a weird trophy you get more than an actual accessory to use
I really wish triangle strategy would be getting any dlc of sorts but…alas
We may get a TS 2 in the near future (I hope)
Speaking about cutscenes, they are a serious annoyance to skip. Can take several minutes, and stuff loads before you skip it, and the rare story dialog with a conviction choice prevent skipping.
Like somebody else said, difficulty also plays a large role. That reminds me, I’ve been meaning to comment about difficulty. I’m actually wondering what the exact difficulty modifiers are for each difficulty, and also your general opinion about balance for each of them. Normal mode holds up well compared to recent FE stuff, and I heard some reviewers going down to easy when frustrated. How does the gameplay hold up for each difficulty? Normal vs hard is the interesting one regarding strategic approaches, but I’m a sucker for comparing all exact modifiers and their consequences.
Hi,
first great video
after this video i also want to play deathless mode and beat it
but i have a question: can i retreat in battle after 1 guys death or do i have to completely reload a save file ?
From what I understand retreating after a death is fine and won't ruin the run.
or improve Serenoa after Deathless playthrough of Hard ?....maybe banner increase allies TP by 2 instead of 1
another way makes Deathless matter is wounds mechanics,unit would have Debuff during the whole combat untill few chapters later
, but it's a penalty not reward, sounds not funny for many people
This is exactly why I wish devs understood that if they want their game to really make a lasting impression you need these insane (but fair) difficulty challenges built into the game. I play a lot of the roguelikes and the ones that stick around the longest with the most dedicated fanbases who really push the game to its limits are the ones that include these insane difficulty settings. I think Slay the Spire is the one that really did it best. Then there are other roguelikes which are brilliant games but the devs didn't both putting in those extreme challenges so left out these final challenges so people play them and forget them.
Now personally I think the best way to play this game on NG+ is "deathless" but green units don't count. Tbf I don't think deathless makese any sense on your first play through. To me the best rule set are the ones that maximize strategic playing and decision making while minimizing the effectiveness of degenerate strategies. Just so we're clear I define degenerate strategies as any strategy you can use to win from a very disadvantageous position against the AI that would not work against a human. My issue with your chess analogy and how you can sacrifice pieces for tempo is that, it falls apart when you take into account skill level of those playing. If I play you in chess and stupidly lose all my pieces except my king while you have half of yours I'm going to lose. Period. But if we swap you for the TS AI and swap my King for Anna, well I'm probably going to win because the AI is not equipped to deal with a constantly taking cover Anna. When considering what challenge makes sense you need to tune it to the opponent you are playing. if your opponent is very skilled an unpredictable and cannot be beaten by any degenerate strategy, then yes, deathless makes no sense and you would be reducing strategy and strategic options. However, if you opponent is entirely predictable like the current AI is, then I think deathless is the way you should be playing as a handicap to make up for the extreme predictability of the enemy and pushes you to come up with a good plan to win rather than "Oooops I screwed up, lets just rely on Anna covering for 5 hours".
In chess you can often sac a piece to gain a positional advantage, or in blitz, create a difficult position for the opponent so that they need to carefully avoid threats.
I didn't mean to sacrifice all of your material and lose. If I sac a bishop to set up a knight fork on your king and queen, its not really a sacrifice.
I don't think anna carrying long term off of invis is a viable way of beating maps and is generally annoying.
Piece saccing in chess doesn't mean you just throw out everything, it is done for a tactical reason and on purpose.
For reference:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice_(chess)
"In chess, a sacrifice is a move giving up a piece with the objective of gaining tactical or positional compensation in other forms. A sacrifice could also be a deliberate exchange of a chess piece of higher value for an opponent's piece of lower value.
Any chess piece except the king may be sacrificed. Because players usually try to hold on to their own pieces, offering a sacrifice can come as an unpleasant surprise to one's opponent, putting them off balance and causing them to waste precious time trying to calculate whether the sacrifice is sound or not, and whether to accept it. Sacrificing one's queen (the most valuable piece), or a string of pieces, adds to the surprise, and such games can be awarded brilliancy prizes.[2]"
@@IcedCoffeeGaming Sorry, it looks like I gave you the wrong impression of what I was trying to say. I didn't mean to give you the impression that I thought a tactical sacrifice was throwing all your pieces away. The point I was trying to make with the Anna vs the world at example had nothing to do with tactical sacrifices.
The point I was trying to make was how do you take a high rated player and a low rated player and have them play a game and let it be fair? Well you look at their rating and you start the high rated player down material. However, lets say you have a high rated player who is so much better than the low rated player that the high rated player can win even if he only starts with a king (yes I know it's impossible but please just pretend it is possible to win with just a king for the sake of the example). You cannot take away any more material so your only option is to put addition restrictions on the high rated player. For example, you can start with a full chess board but if the high rated player loses any pieces they lose the game. Again this has nothing to do with tactical sacrifices.
That is how I view the TS AI vs a human player. The human player is so much more advanced at utilizing tactics that if you do not place addition restriction on yourself winning doesn't mean anything. There are certain characters on certain maps that the AI cannot ever deal with. I wish that the AI could be better but at the moment, playing deathless is one of the few ways I view you can bring the skill gap between a human player and the AI closer together while still being an interesting challenge.
leaving a like just for that thumbnail :D great content for the game
don't know what this game is but i think you made a good point
LOL
A lot of these are just kinda rts problems in general and why the genre tanked. For the most part they're overly-complicated for no reason, besides the devs to say see how smart we are but the systems arent Intuitive or smart they're just clunky and a huge burden.
Which problems are RTS problems? Can you elaborate as to what you mean?
@@IcedCoffeeGaming he didnt wanna elaborate ig
Does death in mock battles count towards deathless?
It's been a while but I believe so
@@IcedCoffeeGaming Thank you for answering! I come from emblem games, xcom, wasteland 3 etc so deathless is my jam. Yesterday my Narv died in mock battle, Im in fifth chapter right now, after I complete the game I will come back and tell you does it affect mock battles. So how do you get the award? or more precisely how game tells you got the item?
I have another question, about bulworth and same kind buff abilities. Does weapon potency affect the buff strength? I tried to search about bulworth. How much it rise your stats but found nothing. Is it magic skill?
PS. Thank you for guides and your humor humors me, good day to you sire !
lmao first time hearing of the plume of immortality
I saw it on reddit and was curious then discovered it but super uncommon knowledge imo.
The accessory you unlock honestly doesn't seem worth it honestly lol. I beat the game once, and honestly still debating if I want to get all the endings. We shall see.
Do deaths in mock battles ruin deathless runs?
Some people say it does others no, I would assume it does to be safe.
Skips dialogue, but complains about not knowing I-/
Poorly communicating a challenge or hiding one rather will make it harder for people to find.
Most players won't even be aware of this and aren't currently.
It would take hours to days of dev time to add in an option to opt into deathless or casual like how 3H did classic vs casual when you start a new save.
Hiding something in dialogue in a game where there are thousands of lines of dialogue is not smart. Especially on NG+ when you've already beaten the game and are more likely to skip dialogue.
I listen to most camp characters, but often with the shop and smithy you can have stuff on your mind and mash through it to get to the menu, I haven’t seen him repeat it(and missed it orginally I think).
The loading screen would’ve been a better alternative, it repeats the new game+ exposition all the time too.
Yeah a loading screen would be fine, try Deathless mode or something. Or an unlocked game mode would be even better.