The longsword man seemed to have to compromise/adapt his style to his opponent much more than the rapier man. The longsword man would not normally have his guard so far forward.
There are many guards in longsword, using extended forward guards like langort, Eisenport and Kron against a much faster point orientated weapon comes from experience of facing those weapons. This is the reality of mixed weapon fighting, some techniques need to be emphasised or not to play to strengths and avoid pitfalls. The rapier had to compromise just as much. At the core of rapier fencing is the aim to dominate the centre line and control the opponents blade, which can almost never be done against a sword handed sword as they have leverage against you no matter how good your blade domination skills are.
Nope. There's (practicaly) no scenario where the rapier can disable the longswordman without receiving a counter strike and more grievous wounds. Many of the manuals warn against thrusting for this reason. Thrusts are more lethal in the span of 24 hours, but you can get run clean through the lung and not even notice it for 5-10 seconds. Ask me how I know.
But if the longsword wielder had armor on, the longsword wielder would have a huge advantage because a rapier isn't made for penetrating armor, but for dueling, while a longsword is.
shinarit Indeed. In reality it was extremely common for weapons to not match. In an organised duel, yes they typically would, but in all other fights. Be it brawls, fights between militia and gangs, highwaymen, bodyguards and all sorts.
+Academy of Historical Fencing you dont even have to look that far, how about in WAR. Different armies from different areas of the world rarely had the same weapons.
It's so crazy how you chose this song. As a kid I always imagined myself with a rapier fighting a ton of Spanish guards dancing across the floor. I am pursuing HEMA now but you just dug up a long lost memory for me. Thanks!
I watched the arm and blade movement the first time . The second time - the foot work - center of gravity and posture . The secret - is the synthesis of excellent eye / hand coordination and footwork . Thanks for an outstanding contribution .
Interesting. My teacher thinks very little of Meyer's forward guard and rolling techniques, saying that they were for sport fencing and not real combat, and leave the forearms far too exposed for a real fight.
@@inframatic He isn't referring to modern sport fencing, he's saying that the specific techniques from Meyer (his 'forward guard and rolling techniques') would have only been useful for sportive events of the day, (friendly tournaments, fechtschule where bouts would be fought to the first bleeding head wound with bluntened training swords). The validity of the criticism of Meyer is questionable I think, the idea that Meyer is just 1500s sports fencing is a meme tbh
In my experience of this against a range of opponents and in various clubs, the rapier has the advantage. Most longswordsman try and be aggressive and close quickly with powerful strikes and this is their undoing as the disengage and thrust of the rapier is simply so quick. But like against the spear, if they can close safely they do well.
Actually when we do this the contact levels are the same, and harder still when I fight other fencers around the world. I have received longsword cuts that broke the bars of my guard and lost a quillion once. Against sustained blows of that force, the rapier merely uses footwork and distance to avoid, and the large openings created to thrust between, before and after the cuts of the longsword. I happily go full contact against longsword, but would always prefer a dagger in the left hand, always.
Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa, and I have...Actually the most amusing quote is about using Bonneti's defence...I saw it fitting considering the rocky terrain. Only funny if you know Bonneti's first name was Rocco. One line few will ever notice.
@Guacamole Nigga Penis hmmmm it was a book first. No one creates easter eggs like that unless they are first a fan. You name though - should I even ask what you are fan of? On the real though, I think you are right, both characters would fight the old masters if they could have gotten a chance.
I do enjoy this bout, as it illustrates the relative strengths and weaknesses of the two fighting styles that existed side by side for a considerable time. Authors/Fight Choreographers, notice what does and does not work for each. While the rapier was in-line with an effective threat, the longsword was checked quite well, but a missed cut or a superficial wound allowed devastating long blows in counter.
Bear in mind in a duel weapons are normally 'matched', this fight more represents a street fight. as the longsword survived well into the rapier period and plenty accounts exist of them facing one another. The rapier does have a little advantage over the longsword in one on one unarmoured combat, and with the addition of an offhand dagger, a major advantage. Being a street fight, you'd use what you carried.
This right here... This might be the single, only ever video i ever watched, which got better by adding music. Usually i hate it. Here i love it. Well done.
Very good to see. A pleasure to see the heavier longsword block and take control of the rapier, and to demonstrate that the rapier used well can parry and block a longsword used two-handed. Which some claim cannot be done. Brilliant gentlemen.
Quite possibly, with a basket hilt to deflect and absorb a bit more, to stop the chop prior to the forte parry. A spiked buckler would have been perfect.
thatsnumberwang100 A shield would definitely be better than a buckler. But it is of course not always just what is best, but what you might be carrying in certain circumstances. Shields were used with rapiers, particularly by body guards and militias and various other elements, but in most civilian life a dagger is most likely, or buckler. Dagger is best with rapier as the dagger can parry some of the longsword attacks (rapier used for more powerful parries), and the dagger thrust protects you well from the longswordsman closing to grapple as many will want to.
The Longswordsman is highly skilled to be able to overcome the rapiers reach and speed! even though he gets hit many times, nothing really fatal, while he delivers killing blows as counter attack Great video!
I like how he comes under the blade of the long sword with his thrusts. Then brings his whole arm and lower portion of the blade up to block the counter strike.
It is in fact a core principal of many fighting forms (Capo Ferro, Rowarth, Meyer etc) to rise into a hanging posture after having made an attack to protect the head and upper target zones from powerful ripostes. You can see this in longsword, rapier, sabre, messer etc. It is a good rule of swordsmanship and will save you from many counters and afterblows.
Years later, still one of my favorite sparring matches - It takes out the bad conjecture about rapiers vs longswords - both are aggressive, though I feel the longsword could be a bit more, and the rapier doesn't look like a "sissy" weapon, but in fact a deadly match to the longsword.
You don't have to kill your opponent in a sword-fight. You just have to injure them enough to the point that they can no longer fight, allowing you to then either dispatch them with little fuss or take them prisoner in a military setting. Plus, especially in an older period of time, simple cuts and scrapes can lead to nasty infections.
Considering they're probably not using swords of the same weight (and material) as their historical counterparts, they wont carry the same momentum as they would have in real life. If that long sword was heavier, the rapier just wouldn't have the inertia to stay in the guys hand when that long sword is swung at arms length as low to the base of the rapier you can get. I know nothing about sword fighting but I'd be betting on the longsword.
jamesrofl1 The swords in this video were both of historical weight and construction, and of almost the exact same weight (to within about 50 grams). Longswords typically weighed 1.3-1.7kg. amd rapiers, 1.2-1.5kg, depending on their dimensions. It has been proven in historical record and modern reconstruction many times that a rapier can withstand and parry a longsword, providing that parry is made in the strong/forte of the blade. And that two will ensure the rapier is not beaten from your hands, it is all a matter of leverage. The rapier was purpose designed and worn for this kind of one on one unarmoured fight, and it excelled at it. And this is using rapier solo, when it was frequently used with something in the offhand, such as a dagger, and that makes it an even more potent weapon.
HEMA Instructor Nick Thomas Also, any strike that would potentially knock the Rapier out of your hands, or be so strong you could not safely parry without leaving yourself open- would both be telegraphed by the longsword and leave the wielder completely open to a strike, or be easily dodged and possibly followed up with a strike if they've winded their-selves.
That is a good point (no pun intended). I ordered that sword as a custom order back in about 2006/7, back when long rapiers were hard to come by and that was the standard length used by groups in the UK. By the time it had arrived I had already (through my constant research of Capo Ferro) adjusted what I was using. A Darkwood 42", and more recently I have gone to a Darkwood 45" as my favoured rapier, both of which are within the range of correct for my height of 5 foot 7.
megadeth22885 Yes, you can always get a bigger and more powerful weapon, but that misses the point entirely. Rapier's were carried for self defence, zweihanders were not.
megadeth22885 Please go and do some research. The longsword was carried in civilian life also, it was in fact a very universal weapon, and almost every manual devoted to it's study deals with unarmoured fighting for fights in a civilian context. In war, longswords were carried also, but then typically as secondary weapons.
You have to be very careful about lumping them into such distinct categories. The longsword was much more universal than that. In fact the vast majority of documented manuals teaching longsword deal with unarmoured civilian combat. And the rapier was not made for duelling, but self defence. Most swords were used for duel, when they were the popular sword of their day. Also as for the rapier not being a battlefield weapon, no not as we think of it today as the very fine long bladed weapon. The one in this video is actually of a type used both in civilian and military life.
Nikos3000 How about this then, " The rapier was designed for thrusting at unarmoured targets almost exclusively, and the longsword was designed for both cut and thrust against both armoured and unarmoured targets, as one would more frequently see on a medieval battlefield." More accurate, and infinitely harder to type.
Michael Canfielt That's kind of a silly comparison as the reason why rapiers came about was because armour was made obsolete by firearms in the first place. In a world where armour was a moot point, rapiers became the more efficient weapon.
***** Are they using guns in this duel? No? Then the reasons they came about are a non-issue. And you can bet that if guns hadn't been discovered the longsword would have kept right on being used, and armor as well.
WRONG. Spanish rodeleros were some of the deadliest swordsmen on the battlefield, and they used what we would consider a stout rapier in combat to decimate foes like the Swiss pikeman and even heavily armored infantry wielding two handed swords. That the rapier is only used in civilian dueling concept is a MYTH.
That is from a famous treatise on the use of the rapier by Capo Ferro (1610). Depiction of the human form was popular in art of the period and also specifically for the anatomy of the character. It was never intended anyone fight this way, and in fact the first 'plate' in the manual shows two swordsman meeting to fight in full clothing and drawing swords.
+Jorge Emrys Landivar It is, I can confirm from experience. You'd think that the longsword's heavier blade would help you, but the truth is that the rapier is so fast that it's difficult to trap. This rapier is a little on the heavy side of its category and closer to side swords, but the ones we use in our group are extremely fast weapons. If you try to commit to a bind, the rapier can pull back/down, go around your blade and strike very quickly.
It's interesting to see how chaotic an actual sword fight is when your used to the choreography of the movies. I'm starting to wonder if it was possible escape a fight unscathed in history. I can't imagine a real fight exchanging any more than a few blows before it was over with both combatants wounded in some form or other.
There certainly are plenty of accounts of both fighters being wounded, even both dying, but there are also scores of accounts where one party won the fight unscathed. And yes, in an unarmoured encounter as represented here, a fight is likely to be over in 1-3 hits.
good vid I liked the music nice choice. Nice sparring from both fencers! You have to be careful drawing conclusions like the rapier is better than the longsword in one on one duels like this, as it depends more on the fencers. This longsword fencer did better than most on youtube longsword vs rapier duels I've seen, because he was more aggressive. But you still see him playing the rapiers game which is the intuitive thing, a distance and thrusting game that the longsword is at a disadvantage in, when I saw the text saying meyers longsword I was hoping to see the longswordman use guards like day and change, attack with the change cut, circle and the rose. Meyer often instructs to use cuts to take out the opponents sword and then enter. It will also be difficult for a rapier'ist to safely stop a strong loaded cut from the longsword he could counter thrust but it would be safer to void and attempt to thrust when the longsword is in-between motions, which is easier said then done when the guy springs at you.
This was close to full contact anyway, and especially more recently when we have done it as our protective gear has improved substantially. The longsword weilder looks like he is going light because he has to be a lot more cautious to refine his movements to catch those thrusts. The harder hitting the more aggressive the longsword fighter the easier they fall to the thrust. I have done this against longsworders who have done as such and hit so hard I have broken a few bars of the rapier guard.
Of course a rapier would defeat a longsword in a duel between unarmored warriors. Rapiers were excellent in unarmored duels, in fact I'd personally say it's what they are best at. However, against a knight in full plate the longsword wielding gentlemen would generally win. To win with a rapier you'd need to target the few spots that can't have armor due to articulation issues (ie armpit, back of leg) but the knight would already have closed in and have you on the ground ready to finish you off before you could achieve that precise strike. Plus flexible "springy" swords that specialise in thrusting are known to be utterly useless against full plate, commonly breaking or bending. That's the thing with swordsmanship, full plate armor is generally just too damn good against even master level swordplay. That's why blunt force weapons such as the hammer were used against knights. Same with samurai vs knight, the knight wins simply because the katana won't cut through the armor. Take the armor away however, then the outcome is far more unpredictable.
You say 'of course a rapier would defeat a longsword'.in this circumstance, but then most people would not think or believe such. As for considering armour, it isn't relevant, as the long bladed rapiers as seen in our videos were not carried on the battlefield and not used against armoured opponents. Whereas the longsword was carried in and used in civilian life like the rapier was.
Taylor P. I think it's because it's a heavier variant that can actually slice some one's face open if sharpened as opposed to Olympic fencing swords. I don't know enough about historical fencing to be sure though.
Taylor P. I'm curious where you're citing this from. I used to do sports fencing, the epee I used never weighed more than a pound. The rapier shown seems at least more than twice that weight, so I'd assume it takes alot more effort to do the same moves.
First: I always enjoy your sparring videos. Thanks for putting them up for public consumption. To the point: I wonder why the choice of such a relatively short rapier for Capo Ferro? My own blade, by CF's writings, would be 49" long. In my group's practices this gives an often significant advantage over Meyer's longsword. Is it simply a matter of what you had available (which I fully understand), a personal preference, or do you have a different interpretation on CF's blade length?
GREAT camera work and slow-motion editing. I'm self taught and went on to teach a Kenjutsu class for 15 yrs. The hardest thing by far was to convince my students that, in reality, sword fights last only seconds. The first one to miss a block/parry usually dies.
+Franco Tramble It is true that once blades have engaged, fights were typically short, and a long way from the epic drawn out battles seen in the movies. BTW, this video in on my own personal channel which is now obsolete. Come and check out the new club channel I am now posting on where there is regular and much more varied content.
im still not entirely convinced. with so much time invested praticing these arts, how can a fight last a few short seconds? i guess have expectations that exceed or equal to that of a superhuman. darn movies!
This is a very interesting and entertaining video, I am very glad I found it. Thank you for taking the time to make/post it. If only there was associated club club in Auckland New Zealand.
so for all the bs everyone makes up about how the rapier is unbeatable in a lightly armored fight due to speed, in the end either sword stands a fair chance at winning. I'm beginning to think that the longsword (several of its evolutionary types that is) is probably the most versatile sword in history. could an expert (which i certainly am NOT) give an opinion on this?
There are unfortunately all kinds of horrible myths about the rapier, from the fact it can't cut, it can't kill, it's too flimsy, all to that its unbeatable and the best sword ever made. As you have realised, the differences in swords are marginal compared to the quality of the fighter. Certain weapons have an advantage over others in particular circumstances, and most longswordsmen come unstuck by the rapier the first few times they face it, but with experience, as Mike has had, that advantage can be closed. Yes the longsword is a very universal sword, likely one of the most in history.
@@griffin98 They did clash actually, and contrary to what should be expected the zweihander didn't completely obliterate the rapier, german mercenaries carrying zweihanders got killed against rapiers too... As to which is more effective, I'd say it probably depends on the conditions and the users... I mean, which is better, a handgun or a rifle? If the guy using it can aim for the head or heart, does it really matter?
@@griffin98 No.. that thing is too slow.. hell.. do you even know what that sword was used for?... it was made to fight fucking pikes and the guys carrying it needed backup.. only the biggest guys could handle it...Where the germans used those things to fight pikes, from above, the spanish used guys with rapiers and small shields and hit the same pikes from bellow...
First I have to say, this is an amazing video to watch. Second, What can you reccomend for a good, sturdy (and well priced) rapier to spar with in Canada?
+Tonay Thanks! I don't know of any Canadian suppliers, but the closest would be Darkwood Armoury in the US. Get one of their economy line models. Overall pretty good. If you can stretch to it though, order from Danelli in the UK. Also, come and check out the new club channel which we have now moved to and I am posting from here. There is a lot more quantity and variety of content added on a weekly basis.
What kind of foil? A sport foil? They aren't helpful to the practice of rapier. Neither the weapon, the style, nor purpose and approach have much in common.
Here’s what: would you rather be poked, or slashed? Neither really, but unless the poke is to the head or heart, the poke is less likely to take you out than a slash. Especially if it’s a Longsword. Add some armor to the equation, and the rapier becomes so much less of a danger. Context matters. In sparring, you point every rapier stab. In actual combat, a stab is not equal a slash.
So, can we conclude that a rapier is superior for an unarmored duel? (i know it mainly depends on the fighter and so on... But given a specific setting, one of the two simply has to be better, ceteris paribus)
Of course the skill of the fighter is the most important factor, but weapon choice can give an advantage, or not, and yes the rapier is quite likely the ultimate sword for unarmoured, one on one fights, assuming open space and swords drawn.
Some of these comments are a little dumb. Yes the rapier is superior in unarmored combat. Yes the longsword is superior in armored combat. But its not because it can cut, pierce, or deliver blunt damage with the blade. Plate armor was specifically designed to stop this and laugh it off. Half swording in areas covered in maille with a perpendicular thrust (really hard) or flipping the sword to deliver a mordhau are the only options for defeating someone in plate armor with the long sword. And these are options that a rapier does not have. Case closed.
Ok you guys. Rapiers are useless against armor, so in unarmored duels, that would have the advantage over the long sword, but if armored, the long sword would render the Rapier futile. Rapiers became more common and popular in europe once armor was done away with. Long swords are far more versatile and damaging, but that doesn't mean much if your opponent can slice up your hands, arms, face etc. before you have a chance to strike him - which would then allow his to finish you off with a thrust to a vital. Rapiers are simply too quick and maneuverable for a long sword to effectively counter in unarmored dueling, and someone with a long sword would not be able to strike a rapier wielding opponent without being outmaneuvered and/or sliced/stabbed first. The best bet for the long sword wielder, is to use the movements of the rapier against the opponent and cut/hack/stab his hands/arms before anything else. This would make it difficult if not impossible for the Rapier to even be used, allowing the long sword to do it's work against the now nearly-defenseless opponent... but still that's easier said than done. Armored Combat: Huge advantage for Long Sword Unarmored Combat: Huge advantage for Rapier. That's it folk... nothing really more to discuss.
+Julius Cheeser Agreed for the maneuverable part. But do tell me, why are rapiers useless against armors? In fact, how are they different from the Estoc?
+scott lee The rapier is the best dueling sword, with a center of balance so near the guard and a tip almost exclusively for thrusting. A decent fencer with a rapier can outmaneuver a decent long swords-men 9 times out of 10 to deliver fatal thrusts and painful cuts at the hands and fingers.
No, he was adapting to the fight because he has done it before. We have countless times seen longsword use power and aggression to try and bully the rapier, and been hit 10x as much as a result.
+AFCATFE Please post to our club page which I am now posting to. We have migrated to their as it is a shared channel for both instructors. However, briefly, it is so difficult to choose a favourite. I am always torn between rapier (with a dagger), and sabre.
Agree with all Nik has said here - I would respectfully add that Rapiers were in fact taken to war and fitted with a heavier blade also, whilst still retaining their complex hilts. The Pappenheimer is one such example and was used to great effect during the 30 years war, so to say all Rapiers were a civilian weapon or that all Rapiers were only for dueling, or that a Rapier would not be able to pierce armour - that is not correct. Rapiers that went to war and that were fitted with a heavier blade could, would and indeed did pierce armor. Great work from both Nik and Mike here! Cheers.
the early period ones were predominately military, but bastard swords became popular with civilians, a great many renaissance examples can be found in museums, usually with some development of the guard in a similar fashion to the rapier. A bastard sword is just a small longsword though. The one used in this video is fairly small, almost a bastard sword, and might be considered as such by some. Really it just comes down to are you using it in one or two hands, and does it have a more developed guard than just a straight cross.
As far as I am aware the main use of the term bastard sword comes from D&D. There are very few historical references to bastard swords. The D&D bastard sword is really a historical long sword.
You guys are wasting your time arguing with megadeth22885. He doesn't know what hes talking about, and if you look at his page, its endless comments of people telling him off because he is ignorant in all of his comments.
Longswordsman was probably too passive in his tactics. Longswordsman had good judgement of his own attacks, but couple of times was within killing zone of rapier, without even understanding the situation. Rapierman had better distance control overall I would argue - he was able to hang back at suitable rapier distance quite good - where as longswordman was too passive perhaps in closing the distance (the only way to hit powerful strikes at the rapierman) :(
They were fencing not fighting there is a huge difference. The long sword has way more uses than what this guy did. such as jamming, rushing, or leg and arm strikes. A good sword fighter didn't just go for the center mass.
Very interesting. As someone who hasn't followed a lot of professional sparring, I haven't seen rapier vs longsword done much and they seem to be a more even match against each other than I'd have thought. Thanks for sharing this!
I remember watching "Seven Samurai" as a kid, and a chill the scene of a duel gave me-lasted about second and a half, remember, when one of the trainees challenged the old samurai?
For a start, the rapier is a weapon for civilian self defence. Heavier blades were mounted on the same hilts for military combat. As for armour, if you are refereeing to plate as was in use in this period, neither could pierce it with cut or thrust. Thrusting was used in armour for the joints and other weak points. Neither of these swords is suited to armoured combat, and few swords are.
Blade length did vary immensely depending on era and particular systems, so it is not that the sword is too short, though it is rather short for practicing Meyer (1570). This video was however taken four years ago when we used Hanwei TInker Pierce longswords (as in vid, 35"), and Albion Meyers. Now we use Peter Regenyei weapons and have them built to our spec, with 38" blades.
I thought the rapier would take advantage at arm's reach, but the guy of the long sword began using the cable extension and began to turn the dispute. Good video.
Watching this, it became very apparent the different contexts in which these swords would be useful in. The rapier was fast and had tremendous reach, but barely any direct defensive value, which makes sense for it as a dueling setting, where you have room to maneuver. The longsword had these great, powerful slicing movements, which could just as easily defend as attack, something necessary while fighting in massed formations where you don't have the room to maneuver. I had known of these differences before, but it's so much more apparent when you see it in a video like this.
Firstly a foil is historically any blunt training sword, and now refers to a specific sport fencing weapon also. So in fact, both training swords here are foils. The rapier evolved from one handed swords as they got more complex and longer in the late 15c and early 16c. The rapier as you see here was in use by 1550, the longsword and various two handers remained in use to the end of the 16c, and even longer in some parts. The rapier was not intended for fighting any kind of armour.
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Hi there, it seems you uses copyrighted material (music?) so TH-cam doesn't allow this video in my country for copyright reason.
We are a fencing school, not a business, so we feel no need to get licencing for anything. It is unfortunate that copyright laws are different in your country, try using a proxy.
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HEMA Instructor Nick Thomas No matter, I can see it now ;) Actually, in any country, you need a license to use a copyrighted music on the internet "Gladiatores" had to remove one of their videos because of that, if I remember correctly. About the longsword fighter, do you know any sourced work where you can see one-handed strike ? It is a great technique, but never checked about it. I think he should try to take more advantage of his sword. He has always the strong, so he could try more technique of strong hand. In this video, he always play in the territory of the rapier : long distances, defense stances, never using (or almost never) the famous "knitting"... ^^ Have fun and thanks for the demonstration ! ;)
Like Matt Easton said, rapiers are dedicated one on one swords. All the weight is concentrated towards the handguard due to excellent hand protection, thus allowing for quicker thrusts and stellar point control plus an enormous reach advantage (depends on the sword). However, you can train to beat a rapier with another sword like the longsword, if you manage to get within the vulnerable spot whilst avoiding the blade, you can halfsword or resort to Ringen, if you're quick enough you'll be able to parry and get a considerable advantage in the bind due to two handed leverage and considering Lichtenauer, that bouncy, aggressive footwork should catch the rapier opponent off guard if you're agile enough.
We use the Leon Paul Coaching or Ultimate club masks which are both very robust. The mesh are easily upto handling what we use them for. However, we add back of the head protectors from SPES historical fencing, and many wear throat protectors underneath also. Some wear padded tops on their masks, but they really aren't necessary.
Nice, the sabre certainly became popular a long time earlier there than the rest of Europe. One thing to consider though is that the rapier style of hilt was fitted on all sorts of blades. The swords carried by both infantry and cavalry in war certainly had rapier style hilts in that period, but the blades were shorter and substantially more robust and better at cutting than what we think of as a rapier.
Very nice fighting on both sides. What sort of rapier and longsword are you using for this video? I'm currently using synthetic sparring swords, and me and my sparring partner are interested in moving up to steel.
I cannot recommend either swords in this video, we have since moved to much better. If you want longswords/sabres, go to Peter Regenyei In Hungary, we have about 50 of his swords in the club and they are excellent. If you want rapiers, go to Darkwood Armoury in US, or Danelli Armouries in UK.
Very nice duel, both fighters fought very well. Though, I especially liked the final strike. It is nice to see someone show that a skilled longswordsman can keep up with a rapier!
Wow, you guys know what you are doing, I do not see that so often when it comes to unusual fencing. Congrats, will subscribe, anticipate your future videos eagerly.
Watching this made me realize two things. 1. You don't have to strike hard to hurt someone with a sword. Silly to think otherwise I know, but the moves make sword fights very impactful. 2. Range of a weapon is really, really, important.
Man, this is so cool. I fenced for 3 years in saber (sport, not historical) and videos like these make me want to move to the UK just to learn how to use the long sword and military saber. Are there any historical fencing organizations in US on the west coast?
tehboyscout You don't need to move to the UK to study historical swordsmanship. There are clubs all around the world. As you are in the US I would recommend you go to the HEMA alliance website. They are a collective of US historical fencing schools and will happily point you to your nearest club.
what you are seeing is a hesitation is changing of line. The attack begins as a feint with a thrust to the inside line of the longswordsman and then the point quick re directs to the opening of the upper arm of the outside line.
I see. I have learned that the line change should be done preceding the launching of the lunge and not during, as that can result in failures to hit. Thank you for the explanation.
Wow, it is so incredible how, when I am holding a longsword, it seems so firm and/or rigid, but when I see it in action here, it is so flexible and wiggly. I wonder what brand/maker of longsword it is?
You can see that a practise Rapier's blade is nowhere near as rigid as a fighting Rapier's blade. Keeping in mind that a Rapier's blade was developed from a Longsword/Armingsword's blade, the steel quality had improved allowing a Rapier's blade, having roughly the same amount of steel, to be lengthened at the smaller width without losing any of its strength. So the Rapier's blade was much more rigid than what we see here. Both weapons are superb......
We teach and score as is appropriate to the weapon. So for example the rapier does not count cuts to the torso (the manuals show how this is ineffective), and cuts must be delivered with a moulinet action in order to develop the appropriate power to cause what would be an effective strike. So we don't need to say score one higher than another, just decide what would be effective with that weapon. When we score fights then, we will often discount weak or lesser strikes over incapacitating ones.
![The Match That Changed Fencing Forever [Epee]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qy-1m5jxYCI/mqdefault.jpg)
The longsword man seemed to have to compromise/adapt his style to his opponent much more than the rapier man. The longsword man would not normally have his guard so far forward.
Perhaps the Rapier user was better in this instance. Especially when lunging and blocking the opponent's sword at the same time.
Rapier dude would have a dagger in his other hand
@@randysavage1 Not always.
There are many guards in longsword, using extended forward guards like langort, Eisenport and Kron against a much faster point orientated weapon comes from experience of facing those weapons. This is the reality of mixed weapon fighting, some techniques need to be emphasised or not to play to strengths and avoid pitfalls. The rapier had to compromise just as much. At the core of rapier fencing is the aim to dominate the centre line and control the opponents blade, which can almost never be done against a sword handed sword as they have leverage against you no matter how good your blade domination skills are.
Because rapiers are dueling weapons and better in 1v1 fights than a longsword, if you don’t adjust you die.
Dude with the longsword held up much better against the rapier then I thought he would. Rapier definitely has the advantage in a one on one duel.
I agree
Nope. There's (practicaly) no scenario where the rapier can disable the longswordman without receiving a counter strike and more grievous wounds. Many of the manuals warn against thrusting for this reason. Thrusts are more lethal in the span of 24 hours, but you can get run clean through the lung and not even notice it for 5-10 seconds. Ask me how I know.
But if the longsword wielder had armor on, the longsword wielder would have a huge advantage because a rapier isn't made for penetrating armor, but for dueling, while a longsword is.
@@natanvandoorn5660
A longsword isn‘t made for penetrating metal plates either
This was pretty telling..better footwork, positioning and movement would have made a bigger difference.
2:54 the importance of handguard
This was great. Nice to see the interaction of different weapon types. Tourneys are usually same vs same, because that's how it's fair, but.
shinarit Indeed. In reality it was extremely common for weapons to not match. In an organised duel, yes they typically would, but in all other fights. Be it brawls, fights between militia and gangs, highwaymen, bodyguards and all sorts.
+Academy of Historical Fencing you dont even have to look that far, how about in WAR. Different armies from different areas of the world rarely had the same weapons.
It's so crazy how you chose this song. As a kid I always imagined myself with a rapier fighting a ton of Spanish guards dancing across the floor. I am pursuing HEMA now but you just dug up a long lost memory for me. Thanks!
why did the guy with the longsword not end his opponent rightly by throwing his pommel?
No one expects to be ended rightly by an opponent throwing his pommel. That move is just over powered!
they are just sparring
no need to exaggerate
Snoop Azlan LOL
What is this with the ending rightly? Why do I see this joke everywhere???
Mindaugas how new are you?
I watched the arm and blade movement the first time . The second time - the foot work - center of gravity and posture . The secret - is the synthesis of excellent eye / hand coordination and footwork . Thanks for an outstanding contribution .
Interesting. My teacher thinks very little of Meyer's forward guard and rolling techniques, saying that they were for sport fencing and not real combat, and leave the forearms far too exposed for a real fight.
Your teacher should do more research on sport fencing, especially Epee where a hit to the forearm is a point. Also, has he never heard of a hilt?
@@inframatic why are you talking about points ? Talks about Real fight.
@@inframatic He isn't referring to modern sport fencing, he's saying that the specific techniques from Meyer (his 'forward guard and rolling techniques') would have only been useful for sportive events of the day, (friendly tournaments, fechtschule where bouts would be fought to the first bleeding head wound with bluntened training swords). The validity of the criticism of Meyer is questionable I think, the idea that Meyer is just 1500s sports fencing is a meme tbh
In my experience of this against a range of opponents and in various clubs, the rapier has the advantage. Most longswordsman try and be aggressive and close quickly with powerful strikes and this is their undoing as the disengage and thrust of the rapier is simply so quick. But like against the spear, if they can close safely they do well.
Actually when we do this the contact levels are the same, and harder still when I fight other fencers around the world. I have received longsword cuts that broke the bars of my guard and lost a quillion once. Against sustained blows of that force, the rapier merely uses footwork and distance to avoid, and the large openings created to thrust between, before and after the cuts of the longsword. I happily go full contact against longsword, but would always prefer a dagger in the left hand, always.
Thing is, you add a shield to the long sword as many used, rapier is done. I get you are doing court dueling, but ...
Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa, and I have...Actually the most amusing quote is about using Bonneti's defence...I saw it fitting considering the rocky terrain. Only funny if you know Bonneti's first name was Rocco. One line few will ever notice.
that's wonderful to know. Makes that entire scene stand out that much more as an homage to the old masters.
@Guacamole Nigga Penis hmmmm it was a book first. No one creates easter eggs like that unless they are first a fan. You name though - should I even ask what you are fan of? On the real though, I think you are right, both characters would fight the old masters if they could have gotten a chance.
@@egjundis As Humperdink noticed from studying the scene of the fight, they were both masters.
darksouls 4 looks great
Dat Baller Swag Sword...
Now they should do dark sword vs estoc;)
I don't have enough DEX to use rapiers ;-;
huh?
Yeah, not sure how I feel about it though. 3 felt like a nice conclusion.
I do enjoy this bout, as it illustrates the relative strengths and weaknesses of the two fighting styles that existed side by side for a considerable time. Authors/Fight Choreographers, notice what does and does not work for each. While the rapier was in-line with an effective threat, the longsword was checked quite well, but a missed cut or a superficial wound allowed devastating long blows in counter.
Bear in mind in a duel weapons are normally 'matched', this fight more represents a street fight. as the longsword survived well into the rapier period and plenty accounts exist of them facing one another. The rapier does have a little advantage over the longsword in one on one unarmoured combat, and with the addition of an offhand dagger, a major advantage. Being a street fight, you'd use what you carried.
This right here...
This might be the single, only ever video i ever watched, which got better by adding music.
Usually i hate it. Here i love it. Well done.
0:09
"You there! man with the rapier! i challenge you to a duel!"
"listen, i don't want any trouble. just out for a stroll"
"en garde!"
Thanks for posting this, two of the coolest historical weapons... always interesting to see mismatched fighting.
Very good to see. A pleasure to see the heavier longsword block and take control of the rapier, and to demonstrate that the rapier used well can parry and block a longsword used two-handed. Which some claim cannot be done. Brilliant gentlemen.
If the rapier were used in combination with a buckler, he'd own the longswordsman's ass, in my opinion.
Quite possibly, with a basket hilt to deflect and absorb a bit more, to stop the chop prior to the forte parry.
A spiked buckler would have been perfect.
Jonatas Silveira Baldo If the rapier adds a companion weapon such as buckler or dagger it does indeed become a very one sided fight. We do this often.
Would you think a buckler is best, or a slightly larger shield?
thatsnumberwang100 A shield would definitely be better than a buckler. But it is of course not always just what is best, but what you might be carrying in certain circumstances. Shields were used with rapiers, particularly by body guards and militias and various other elements, but in most civilian life a dagger is most likely, or buckler. Dagger is best with rapier as the dagger can parry some of the longsword attacks (rapier used for more powerful parries), and the dagger thrust protects you well from the longswordsman closing to grapple as many will want to.
In my experience, fhe more aggressive, the more angry and the more power the longswordsman use, the more they suffer.
How do you guys deal with GIANTDAD invaders in these matches?
Parry 'em. But then again The Legend 'll just get back up and pwn them.
Backstab all day long
The Longswordsman is highly skilled to be able to overcome the rapiers reach and speed! even though he gets hit many times, nothing really fatal, while he delivers killing blows as counter attack
Great video!
Ivo Wilson "Nothing really fatal" gets a hole on his throat multiple times...
Are we watching the same fight? the Longsword guy died like 10x over
I like how he comes under the blade of the long sword with his thrusts. Then brings his whole arm and lower portion of the blade up to block the counter strike.
It is in fact a core principal of many fighting forms (Capo Ferro, Rowarth, Meyer etc) to rise into a hanging posture after having made an attack to protect the head and upper target zones from powerful ripostes. You can see this in longsword, rapier, sabre, messer etc. It is a good rule of swordsmanship and will save you from many counters and afterblows.
Years later, still one of my favorite sparring matches - It takes out the bad conjecture about rapiers vs longswords - both are aggressive, though I feel the longsword could be a bit more, and the rapier doesn't look like a "sissy" weapon, but in fact a deadly match to the longsword.
Absolutely excellent video.
I immensely enjoyed the blow by blow descriptions and slow mo replays to show the strikes in detail.
The rapier has more reach because it's one-handed, but I imagine the blows from a longsword would be more damaging.
The cuts are much more powerful yes, but the thrust is lethal from either.
You don't have to kill your opponent in a sword-fight. You just have to injure them enough to the point that they can no longer fight, allowing you to then either dispatch them with little fuss or take them prisoner in a military setting. Plus, especially in an older period of time, simple cuts and scrapes can lead to nasty infections.
Considering they're probably not using swords of the same weight (and material) as their historical counterparts, they wont carry the same momentum as they would have in real life. If that long sword was heavier, the rapier just wouldn't have the inertia to stay in the guys hand when that long sword is swung at arms length as low to the base of the rapier you can get. I know nothing about sword fighting but I'd be betting on the longsword.
jamesrofl1 The swords in this video were both of historical weight and construction, and of almost the exact same weight (to within about 50 grams). Longswords typically weighed 1.3-1.7kg. amd rapiers, 1.2-1.5kg, depending on their dimensions. It has been proven in historical record and modern reconstruction many times that a rapier can withstand and parry a longsword, providing that parry is made in the strong/forte of the blade. And that two will ensure the rapier is not beaten from your hands, it is all a matter of leverage.
The rapier was purpose designed and worn for this kind of one on one unarmoured fight, and it excelled at it. And this is using rapier solo, when it was frequently used with something in the offhand, such as a dagger, and that makes it an even more potent weapon.
HEMA Instructor Nick Thomas
Also, any strike that would potentially knock the Rapier out of your hands, or be so strong you could not safely parry without leaving yourself open- would both be telegraphed by the longsword and leave the wielder completely open to a strike, or be easily dodged and possibly followed up with a strike if they've winded their-selves.
1:06 That was interesting; I'll have to learn that.
This is incredible! Very helpful to have the slow mo and commentaries too as it moves pretty quickly for someone that doesn't know swordplay that well
That is a good point (no pun intended). I ordered that sword as a custom order back in about 2006/7, back when long rapiers were hard to come by and that was the standard length used by groups in the UK. By the time it had arrived I had already (through my constant research of Capo Ferro) adjusted what I was using. A Darkwood 42", and more recently I have gone to a Darkwood 45" as my favoured rapier, both of which are within the range of correct for my height of 5 foot 7.
IMHO, still one of if not the best sparring videos on TH-cam. I've watched it more times than I can count.
The Rapier seems to dictate style over the longsword. It become a reach match.
pit a rapier against a claymore or a zweihander.. would love to see the dumbass with the rapier try blocking or out reaching one of those
megadeth22885 Yes and a pole arm is longer still... What is your point?
megadeth22885 Yes, you can always get a bigger and more powerful weapon, but that misses the point entirely. Rapier's were carried for self defence, zweihanders were not.
it doesnt miss the point completely, longswords were carried in combat and the guy using it not dressed for combat so its a false scenario
megadeth22885 Please go and do some research. The longsword was carried in civilian life also, it was in fact a very universal weapon, and almost every manual devoted to it's study deals with unarmoured fighting for fights in a civilian context. In war, longswords were carried also, but then typically as secondary weapons.
It's vital to remember that the longsword was a battlefield weapon, while the rapier was made primarily for dueling.
You have to be very careful about lumping them into such distinct categories. The longsword was much more universal than that. In fact the vast majority of documented manuals teaching longsword deal with unarmoured civilian combat. And the rapier was not made for duelling, but self defence. Most swords were used for duel, when they were the popular sword of their day. Also as for the rapier not being a battlefield weapon, no not as we think of it today as the very fine long bladed weapon. The one in this video is actually of a type used both in civilian and military life.
Nikos3000 How about this then, " The rapier was designed for thrusting at unarmoured targets almost exclusively, and the longsword was designed for both cut and thrust against both armoured and unarmoured targets, as one would more frequently see on a medieval battlefield."
More accurate, and infinitely harder to type.
Michael Canfielt That's kind of a silly comparison as the reason why rapiers came about was because armour was made obsolete by firearms in the first place. In a world where armour was a moot point, rapiers became the more efficient weapon.
***** Are they using guns in this duel? No? Then the reasons they came about are a non-issue. And you can bet that if guns hadn't been discovered the longsword would have kept right on being used, and armor as well.
WRONG. Spanish rodeleros were some of the deadliest swordsmen on the battlefield, and they used what we would consider a stout rapier in combat to decimate foes like the Swiss pikeman and even heavily armored infantry wielding two handed swords. That the rapier is only used in civilian dueling concept is a MYTH.
That is from a famous treatise on the use of the rapier by Capo Ferro (1610). Depiction of the human form was popular in art of the period and also specifically for the anatomy of the character. It was never intended anyone fight this way, and in fact the first 'plate' in the manual shows two swordsman meeting to fight in full clothing and drawing swords.
Why is the long-sword guy not closing hard the few times he bound and only rarely binding? Is it just really hard to bind properly to a rapier?
+Jorge Emrys Landivar It is, I can confirm from experience. You'd think that the longsword's heavier blade would help you, but the truth is that the rapier is so fast that it's difficult to trap.
This rapier is a little on the heavy side of its category and closer to side swords, but the ones we use in our group are extremely fast weapons.
If you try to commit to a bind, the rapier can pull back/down, go around your blade and strike very quickly.
It's interesting to see how chaotic an actual sword fight is when your used to the choreography of the movies. I'm starting to wonder if it was possible escape a fight unscathed in history. I can't imagine a real fight exchanging any more than a few blows before it was over with both combatants wounded in some form or other.
There certainly are plenty of accounts of both fighters being wounded, even both dying, but there are also scores of accounts where one party won the fight unscathed. And yes, in an unarmoured encounter as represented here, a fight is likely to be over in 1-3 hits.
***** It happens in fights with all weapons. There are plenty of accounts of the same with longsword and sabre for example.
Any sword fight resulted in one cut up and the other dead.
No it didn't, countless primary source evidence does not support that conclusion. Some did end that way, many did not.
@Tracchofyre Yes. More is always better of course, but we have a huge amount of data to work from.
I never get tired of re-watching this. Such an excellent video.
good vid I liked the music nice choice. Nice sparring from both fencers!
You have to be careful drawing conclusions like the rapier is better than the longsword in one on one duels like this, as it depends more on the fencers. This longsword fencer did better than most on youtube longsword vs rapier duels I've seen, because he was more aggressive. But you still see him playing the rapiers game which is the intuitive thing, a distance and thrusting game that the longsword is at a disadvantage in, when I saw the text saying meyers longsword I was hoping to see the longswordman use guards like day and change, attack with the change cut, circle and the rose. Meyer often instructs to use cuts to take out the opponents sword and then enter. It will also be difficult for a rapier'ist to safely stop a strong loaded cut from the longsword he could counter thrust but it would be safer to void and attempt to thrust when the longsword is in-between motions, which is easier said then done when the guy springs at you.
This was close to full contact anyway, and especially more recently when we have done it as our protective gear has improved substantially. The longsword weilder looks like he is going light because he has to be a lot more cautious to refine his movements to catch those thrusts. The harder hitting the more aggressive the longsword fighter the easier they fall to the thrust. I have done this against longsworders who have done as such and hit so hard I have broken a few bars of the rapier guard.
Of course a rapier would defeat a longsword in a duel between unarmored warriors. Rapiers were excellent in unarmored duels, in fact I'd personally say it's what they are best at. However, against a knight in full plate the longsword wielding gentlemen would generally win. To win with a rapier you'd need to target the few spots that can't have armor due to articulation issues (ie armpit, back of leg) but the knight would already have closed in and have you on the ground ready to finish you off before you could achieve that precise strike. Plus flexible "springy" swords that specialise in thrusting are known to be utterly useless against full plate, commonly breaking or bending. That's the thing with swordsmanship, full plate armor is generally just too damn good against even master level swordplay. That's why blunt force weapons such as the hammer were used against knights. Same with samurai vs knight, the knight wins simply because the katana won't cut through the armor. Take the armor away however, then the outcome is far more unpredictable.
You say 'of course a rapier would defeat a longsword'.in this circumstance, but then most people would not think or believe such. As for considering armour, it isn't relevant, as the long bladed rapiers as seen in our videos were not carried on the battlefield and not used against armoured opponents. Whereas the longsword was carried in and used in civilian life like the rapier was.
Yes, and to top it off the use of the rapier was oddly slow in its use.
Taylor P. I think it's because it's a heavier variant that can actually slice some one's face open if sharpened as opposed to Olympic fencing swords. I don't know enough about historical fencing to be sure though.
A rapier is not ment to be very heavy, it is ment to be used swiftly with flow, grace, and most of all panash!
Taylor P. I'm curious where you're citing this from. I used to do sports fencing, the epee I used never weighed more than a pound. The rapier shown seems at least more than twice that weight, so I'd assume it takes alot more effort to do the same moves.
Seeing how close each of these bouts are and how many cuts they each receive...fighting like this is absolutely insane.
Amazing video. Doesn't get boring like many other fencing videos and the music is out standing.
First: I always enjoy your sparring videos. Thanks for putting them up for public consumption.
To the point: I wonder why the choice of such a relatively short rapier for Capo Ferro? My own blade, by CF's writings, would be 49" long. In my group's practices this gives an often significant advantage over Meyer's longsword. Is it simply a matter of what you had available (which I fully understand), a personal preference, or do you have a different interpretation on CF's blade length?
I like how this shows neither as 'better', just that they are different
When the rapier fighter skewers the longswordsman unanswered over and over again?
@@yblignomis The thing is, there is no armor in this equation.
Ah, I see you have studied your Capo Ferra!
GREAT camera work and slow-motion editing. I'm self taught and went on to teach a Kenjutsu class for 15 yrs. The hardest thing by far was to convince my students that, in reality, sword fights last only seconds. The first one to miss a block/parry usually dies.
+Franco Tramble It is true that once blades have engaged, fights were typically short, and a long way from the epic drawn out battles seen in the movies. BTW, this video in on my own personal channel which is now obsolete. Come and check out the new club channel I am now posting on where there is regular and much more varied content.
im still not entirely convinced. with so much time invested praticing these arts, how can a fight last a few short seconds? i guess have expectations that exceed or equal to that of a superhuman. darn movies!
+TheKanjiX Look at any sparing match, how many times they re-set to start over. The first person to make a mistake looses/dies.
This is a very interesting and entertaining video, I am very glad I found it. Thank you for taking the time to make/post it. If only there was associated club club in Auckland New Zealand.
so for all the bs everyone makes up about how the rapier is unbeatable in a lightly armored fight due to speed, in the end either sword stands a fair chance at winning. I'm beginning to think that the longsword (several of its evolutionary types that is) is probably the most versatile sword in history. could an expert (which i certainly am NOT) give an opinion on this?
There are unfortunately all kinds of horrible myths about the rapier, from the fact it can't cut, it can't kill, it's too flimsy, all to that its unbeatable and the best sword ever made. As you have realised, the differences in swords are marginal compared to the quality of the fighter. Certain weapons have an advantage over others in particular circumstances, and most longswordsmen come unstuck by the rapier the first few times they face it, but with experience, as Mike has had, that advantage can be closed.
Yes the longsword is a very universal sword, likely one of the most in history.
Maybe modern engineers could design something better, but it seems like for a one on one duel the rapier was the high point of European sword design.
A zweihander or other large sword can Match a rapier
@@griffin98 They did clash actually, and contrary to what should be expected the zweihander didn't completely obliterate the rapier, german mercenaries carrying zweihanders got killed against rapiers too... As to which is more effective, I'd say it probably depends on the conditions and the users... I mean, which is better, a handgun or a rifle? If the guy using it can aim for the head or heart, does it really matter?
@@griffin98 No.. that thing is too slow.. hell.. do you even know what that sword was used for?... it was made to fight fucking pikes and the guys carrying it needed backup.. only the biggest guys could handle it...Where the germans used those things to fight pikes, from above, the spanish used guys with rapiers and small shields and hit the same pikes from bellow...
First I have to say, this is an amazing video to watch.
Second,
What can you reccomend for a good, sturdy (and well priced) rapier to spar with in Canada?
+Tonay Thanks! I don't know of any Canadian suppliers, but the closest would be Darkwood Armoury in the US. Get one of their economy line models. Overall pretty good. If you can stretch to it though, order from Danelli in the UK.
Also, come and check out the new club channel which we have now moved to and I am posting from here. There is a lot more quantity and variety of content added on a weekly basis.
buy a foil and learn properly
What kind of foil? A sport foil? They aren't helpful to the practice of rapier. Neither the weapon, the style, nor purpose and approach have much in common.
11 years old, and I still like this video.
Here’s what: would you rather be poked, or slashed? Neither really, but unless the poke is to the head or heart, the poke is less likely to take you out than a slash. Especially if it’s a Longsword.
Add some armor to the equation, and the rapier becomes so much less of a danger. Context matters. In sparring, you point every rapier stab. In actual combat, a stab is not equal a slash.
So, can we conclude that a rapier is superior for an unarmored duel?
(i know it mainly depends on the fighter and so on... But given a specific setting, one of the two simply has to be better, ceteris paribus)
Of course the skill of the fighter is the most important factor, but weapon choice can give an advantage, or not, and yes the rapier is quite likely the ultimate sword for unarmoured, one on one fights, assuming open space and swords drawn.
Thanks for the reply.
Very nice sparring session guys good job!
What's the name of this song???
+tonytony87 'Don't let me be misunderstood'
I sounds lke the song from Kill Bill
Darude - Sandstorm
Don't Let me be Misunderstood by Santa Esmeralda - v=8O0y3Rg2SnI
+Tracks Darren It doesn't just sound like the song from Kill Bill, it is the song from Kill Bill.
Some of these comments are a little dumb. Yes the rapier is superior in unarmored combat. Yes the longsword is superior in armored combat. But its not because it can cut, pierce, or deliver blunt damage with the blade. Plate armor was specifically designed to stop this and laugh it off. Half swording in areas covered in maille with a perpendicular thrust (really hard) or flipping the sword to deliver a mordhau are the only options for defeating someone in plate armor with the long sword. And these are options that a rapier does not have. Case closed.
Nice! I thought the guy with the longsword would have a harder time trying to guard the rapier, but he did a really good job. Both guys did!
Ok you guys. Rapiers are useless against armor, so in unarmored duels, that would have the advantage over the long sword, but if armored, the long sword would render the Rapier futile. Rapiers became more common and popular in europe once armor was done away with. Long swords are far more versatile and damaging, but that doesn't mean much if your opponent can slice up your hands, arms, face etc. before you have a chance to strike him - which would then allow his to finish you off with a thrust to a vital.
Rapiers are simply too quick and maneuverable for a long sword to effectively counter in unarmored dueling, and someone with a long sword would not be able to strike a rapier wielding opponent without being outmaneuvered and/or sliced/stabbed first.
The best bet for the long sword wielder, is to use the movements of the rapier against the opponent and cut/hack/stab his hands/arms before anything else. This would make it difficult if not impossible for the Rapier to even be used, allowing the long sword to do it's work against the now nearly-defenseless opponent... but still that's easier said than done.
Armored Combat: Huge advantage for Long Sword
Unarmored Combat: Huge advantage for Rapier.
That's it folk... nothing really more to discuss.
+Julius Cheeser Agreed for the maneuverable part.
But do tell me, why are rapiers useless against armors?
In fact, how are they different from the Estoc?
Feels like the rapier is is the winner. With decent footwork, it looks quick.
+scott lee The rapier is the best dueling sword, with a center of balance so near the guard and a tip almost exclusively for thrusting.
A decent fencer with a rapier can outmaneuver a decent long swords-men 9 times out of 10 to deliver fatal thrusts and painful cuts at the hands and fingers.
it has a good recovery time its not quick
Sure it wins if you are forced to stand there and slowly take hits like the guy with the longsword did.
No, he was adapting to the fight because he has done it before. We have countless times seen longsword use power and aggression to try and bully the rapier, and been hit 10x as much as a result.
Favorite HEMA Weapon guys? Mine's the rapier :D
+AFCATFE Please post to our club page which I am now posting to. We have migrated to their as it is a shared channel for both instructors. However, briefly, it is so difficult to choose a favourite. I am always torn between rapier (with a dagger), and sabre.
+Dai Hoc Ngoai Thuong Khoa Quoc Te gotta love Rotella
Agree with all Nik has said here - I would respectfully add that Rapiers were in fact taken to war and fitted with a heavier blade also, whilst still retaining their complex hilts. The Pappenheimer is one such example and was used to great effect during the 30 years war, so to say all Rapiers were a civilian weapon or that all Rapiers were only for dueling, or that a Rapier would not be able to pierce armour - that is not correct. Rapiers that went to war and that were fitted with a heavier blade could, would and indeed did pierce armor. Great work from both Nik and Mike here! Cheers.
I want to see a bastard sword/hand and a half sword vs a rapier.
Were bastard swords primarily military or both?
the early period ones were predominately military, but bastard swords became popular with civilians, a great many renaissance examples can be found in museums, usually with some development of the guard in a similar fashion to the rapier.
A bastard sword is just a small longsword though. The one used in this video is fairly small, almost a bastard sword, and might be considered as such by some. Really it just comes down to are you using it in one or two hands, and does it have a more developed guard than just a straight cross.
As far as I am aware the main use of the term bastard sword comes from D&D. There are very few historical references to bastard swords. The D&D bastard sword is really a historical long sword.
You guys are wasting your time arguing with megadeth22885. He doesn't know what hes talking about, and if you look at his page, its endless comments of people telling him off because he is ignorant in all of his comments.
Yep, don't feed the troll :-)
Longswordsman was probably too passive in his tactics. Longswordsman had good judgement of his own attacks, but couple of times was within killing zone of rapier, without even understanding the situation. Rapierman had better distance control overall I would argue - he was able to hang back at suitable rapier distance quite good - where as longswordman was too passive perhaps in closing the distance (the only way to hit powerful strikes at the rapierman)
:(
One handed hits from the longsword in a real fight seem unlikely as there's too little power and a big loss of control.
As brilliant and masterful as Nick and Mike are, the star of this vid is the unrepentant 70s soundtrack. Bravo!
Thanks for sharing this. The only local HEMA club works with Meyer's material, so it's cool to see it in action.
They were fencing not fighting there is a huge difference. The long sword has way more uses than what this guy did. such as jamming, rushing, or leg and arm strikes. A good sword fighter didn't just go for the center mass.
exactly too bias on rapier because the guy using long sword is not adept.
Hmmm... The commentators of this video were very generous to Mike IMO. He needs a lot of work on his blade alignment when countering.
nice Kill Bill music
Do you know the name of the song?
Nope. Well, I did.. but I forgot it, sorry. xD Id just look up Kill Bill Lucy Lui Theme.
Biyoka I i finally found that damn song :D Santa Esmeralda - Don't let me be misunderstood
Zakariia lol nice
Very interesting. As someone who hasn't followed a lot of professional sparring, I haven't seen rapier vs longsword done much and they seem to be a more even match against each other than I'd have thought. Thanks for sharing this!
I remember watching "Seven Samurai" as a kid, and a chill the scene of a duel gave me-lasted about second and a half, remember, when one of the trainees challenged the old samurai?
put the two in armor and its game over, rapier couldnt pierce it
neither would the longsword xD
it wouldnt need to, the sheer power behind a longsword can smash a steel helmet in
megadeth22885 Well, you have a point.
Mr. Johannson so do swords
For a start, the rapier is a weapon for civilian self defence. Heavier blades were mounted on the same hilts for military combat. As for armour, if you are refereeing to plate as was in use in this period, neither could pierce it with cut or thrust. Thrusting was used in armour for the joints and other weak points. Neither of these swords is suited to armoured combat, and few swords are.
Blade length did vary immensely depending on era and particular systems, so it is not that the sword is too short, though it is rather short for practicing Meyer (1570). This video was however taken four years ago when we used Hanwei TInker Pierce longswords (as in vid, 35"), and Albion Meyers. Now we use Peter Regenyei weapons and have them built to our spec, with 38" blades.
Great video! Everything is great quality, and I really enjoyed the pre-exchange synopsis. It was very helpful.
I really like this song, and it goes terrific with your guys' match,
Awesome stuff! lots of fun to watch
Those were some beautiful exchanges, especially the double parry !
I thought the rapier would take advantage at arm's reach, but the guy of the long sword began using the cable extension and began to turn the dispute. Good video.
Watching this, it became very apparent the different contexts in which these swords would be useful in. The rapier was fast and had tremendous reach, but barely any direct defensive value, which makes sense for it as a dueling setting, where you have room to maneuver. The longsword had these great, powerful slicing movements, which could just as easily defend as attack, something necessary while fighting in massed formations where you don't have the room to maneuver.
I had known of these differences before, but it's so much more apparent when you see it in a video like this.
Firstly a foil is historically any blunt training sword, and now refers to a specific sport fencing weapon also. So in fact, both training swords here are foils. The rapier evolved from one handed swords as they got more complex and longer in the late 15c and early 16c. The rapier as you see here was in use by 1550, the longsword and various two handers remained in use to the end of the 16c, and even longer in some parts. The rapier was not intended for fighting any kind of armour.
Hi there, it seems you uses copyrighted material (music?) so TH-cam doesn't allow this video in my country for copyright reason.
We are a fencing school, not a business, so we feel no need to get licencing for anything. It is unfortunate that copyright laws are different in your country, try using a proxy.
HEMA Instructor Nick Thomas
No matter, I can see it now ;)
Actually, in any country, you need a license to use a copyrighted music on the internet "Gladiatores" had to remove one of their videos because of that, if I remember correctly.
About the longsword fighter, do you know any sourced work where you can see one-handed strike ? It is a great technique, but never checked about it.
I think he should try to take more advantage of his sword. He has always the strong, so he could try more technique of strong hand. In this video, he always play in the territory of the rapier : long distances, defense stances, never using (or almost never) the famous "knitting"... ^^
Have fun and thanks for the demonstration ! ;)
Like Matt Easton said, rapiers are dedicated one on one swords. All the weight is concentrated towards the handguard due to excellent hand protection, thus allowing for quicker thrusts and stellar point control plus an enormous reach advantage (depends on the sword). However, you can train to beat a rapier with another sword like the longsword, if you manage to get within the vulnerable spot whilst avoiding the blade, you can halfsword or resort to Ringen, if you're quick enough you'll be able to parry and get a considerable advantage in the bind due to two handed leverage and considering Lichtenauer, that bouncy, aggressive footwork should catch the rapier opponent off guard if you're agile enough.
Brilliant use of the slow motion replays. I wish all sparring videos did this. It really helps you see what's happening in proper detail.
Nick, thank you for providing so much commentary in the comment sections. Wow.
We use the Leon Paul Coaching or Ultimate club masks which are both very robust. The mesh are easily upto handling what we use them for. However, we add back of the head protectors from SPES historical fencing, and many wear throat protectors underneath also. Some wear padded tops on their masks, but they really aren't necessary.
Excellent video. Great choice of music too, Summertime Killer.
Nice, the sabre certainly became popular a long time earlier there than the rest of Europe. One thing to consider though is that the rapier style of hilt was fitted on all sorts of blades. The swords carried by both infantry and cavalry in war certainly had rapier style hilts in that period, but the blades were shorter and substantially more robust and better at cutting than what we think of as a rapier.
Very nice fighting on both sides. What sort of rapier and longsword are you using for this video? I'm currently using synthetic sparring swords, and me and my sparring partner are interested in moving up to steel.
I cannot recommend either swords in this video, we have since moved to much better. If you want longswords/sabres, go to Peter Regenyei In Hungary, we have about 50 of his swords in the club and they are excellent. If you want rapiers, go to Darkwood Armoury in US, or Danelli Armouries in UK.
What kind of Rapier is Nick using, love the style and the performance from both gentlemens. Nice work!
Very nice duel, both fighters fought very well. Though, I especially liked the final strike. It is nice to see someone show that a skilled longswordsman can keep up with a rapier!
Wow, you guys know what you are doing, I do not see that so often when it comes to unusual fencing. Congrats, will subscribe, anticipate your future videos eagerly.
Watching this made me realize two things.
1. You don't have to strike hard to hurt someone with a sword. Silly to think otherwise I know, but the moves make sword fights very impactful.
2. Range of a weapon is really, really, important.
Man, this is so cool. I fenced for 3 years in saber (sport, not historical) and videos like these make me want to move to the UK just to learn how to use the long sword and military saber. Are there any historical fencing organizations in US on the west coast?
OH! sorry. I think it is obvious now due to my lack of global awareness, but I am from the United States.
tehboyscout You don't need to move to the UK to study historical swordsmanship. There are clubs all around the world. As you are in the US I would recommend you go to the HEMA alliance website. They are a collective of US historical fencing schools and will happily point you to your nearest club.
sorry, totally read country. Contra Costa County.
what you are seeing is a hesitation is changing of line. The attack begins as a feint with a thrust to the inside line of the longswordsman and then the point quick re directs to the opening of the upper arm of the outside line.
I see. I have learned that the line change should be done preceding the launching of the lunge and not during, as that can result in failures to hit. Thank you for the explanation.
Wow, it is so incredible how, when I am holding a longsword, it seems so firm and/or rigid, but when I see it in action here, it is so flexible and wiggly. I wonder what brand/maker of longsword it is?
Thanks for up loading .. Great work from both of you.
You can see that a practise Rapier's blade is nowhere near as rigid as a fighting Rapier's blade.
Keeping in mind that a Rapier's blade was developed from a Longsword/Armingsword's blade, the steel quality had improved allowing a Rapier's blade, having roughly the same amount of steel, to be lengthened at the smaller width without losing any of its strength.
So the Rapier's blade was much more rigid than what we see here.
Both weapons are superb......
This was super fun to watch. Reminds me of what my brother and I do when whenever we get together. Good times
That rapier is amazing! Chapeau, my rapier friend!
We teach and score as is appropriate to the weapon. So for example the rapier does not count cuts to the torso (the manuals show how this is ineffective), and cuts must be delivered with a moulinet action in order to develop the appropriate power to cause what would be an effective strike. So we don't need to say score one higher than another, just decide what would be effective with that weapon. When we score fights then, we will often discount weak or lesser strikes over incapacitating ones.
Nice to see how these weapons match up. Seems to me that the two weapons and fighters were fairly evenly matched. Very fun to watch!