If I have not messed up my counting, compared to the last tierlist there have been 16 Civs that moved tiers. Of those 16: 8 went up exactly 1 tier, Indians/Hindustani jumped 2 tiers and the remaining 7 Byz, Celts, Huns, Lith, Mali, Slav, Vik went down 1 tier . Slavs are the only civ that was B tier or lower last patch that moved down the tierlist. Indians/Hindustani now have come full circle starting at S tier in 5.7, dropping down to D tier by December 2020 and now returning to S tier. Britons remain steady at A tier since Ornlus first tierlist on WK 5.7.
@@robchang4533 1 th-cam.com/video/qiG3ho6YgHI/w-d-xo.html It was just after they lost plate barding, though Ornlu possibly undervalued them a bit in that patch i guess.
Ornlu's back! I hope you will recover soon. I liked your tierlist, agree with pretty much everything, maybe I would put Tatars one tier lower and Malians one tier higher but the rest was spot on. Always nice to see another S tier civ too, I hope Hindustanis won't be nerfed into oblivion in the next big patch, it's boring to always have the same civs at the top
At around 1150 elo, infantry as in longswords works really well. Most players go scouts into knights regardless which civ. Longswords + pikes (or even just spears in early castle) beat them straight up. They switch archers, you add siege and at some point, the mangos will get them... not if but when. And yeah... Burgundians are very strong. Even when not taking the eco upgrades early, they're at least cheap, stable techs cost less and while cavalier in castle age doesn't shred, they are basically fully upgraded knights with +2 attack. I feel the handcannons are a little overlooked. 21 attack is no joke. To put it into perspective, it takes 60 fully upgraded arbs to one-shot paladins but only 13 Burgundian handcannons (or 15 if we account for some stray shots). Civs where one has the choice of taking boni into account (like Folwarks or Burgundian eco techs) are so much more interesting than just +20% gathering rate from X resource.
Burgundians should probably be S tier. Their eco/military bonus is just really strong. Franks for example by castle age save costs on farms techs (200f 200w), bloodlines (150f 100g) and benefit about 100w with faster berry gathering. Total benefit about 750 resources when going knights. Burgundians however save 362 f on eco techs by castle age (wheelbarrow, farm&wood techs, 1st gold tech) and 75f on husbandry. Cavalier arguably better and cheaper than bloodlines and blacksmith techs. The earlier wood upgrades also benefit tremendously being worth at least 200 wood. Overall their savings by castle age start to surpass franks really fast who have insane benefits already.
I like the narrowing of the tiers, B always ends up congested otherwise. It is positive that there are so few civs that would be a genuine 'groan' to random into on Arabia at the moment.
Some help with the tier list: Aztecs should be A tier, while Britons and Bengalis, together with Berbers, Bohemians, Bulgarians, Burgundians, Byzantines, Burmese belong in B tier. Celts, Cumans and Chinese- C tier.
African ,Mezzo, Civs that do not gain access to Good cavalry,nor gunpowder,nor elephants and a weak navy should instead receive strong bonuses for their infantry, villagers and trash. African and mezzo civs should only have canoe navies. Able to fire arrows ,fast ,agile and only using 0.5 pop space but they don't have access to Gally line, nor cannon. Gallons. All canoes can carry/transport 3-5 units and are trained twice as fast as regular ships. Don’t have access to fire ships but get fire canoes that shoot fat covered fire arrows (Fat burns intensely hot). Tech in dock:Fat covered fire arrows - +3 attack to canoes. Canoes transporting skirmishers gain added pierce armour,attack and range. Canoe upgrades are half the cost of regular ship upgrades and come in immediately when you research them. Give the imperial Skirmisher Team bonus (Vietnamese) to a Sub Sahara African civ (Shona people). Sub Sahara African civs get African huts as Dark age houses. (Already in game.) Saracen + Berber+Turks + Kurds dark age houses should be Berber tents (Already in game.) Lithuanians ‘’Skirmishers and spearmen move 10% faster’’ bonus should go to a new Mapuches/Tarascans civ that forms part of a New DLC. And the (Spearman-line and Skirmishers +2P armour) should go to the Zaputechs. In turn Lithuanians towershields tech applies to their crossbows and their sword line. . Dravidians I would love to see the Dravidian ‘’Skirmishers attack 25% faster’’ bonus go to a new Mapuches/Tarascans civ that forms part of a New DLC Tribes of the Tropics DLC Taíno/Arawak peoples / Carib kingdom/Tupi Zaputechs Mapuches/Tarascans. Toltecs Polynesians/ Tuʻi Tonga Empire. In turn the Dravidian Urumi gains the ability to build/repair docks and faster firing BBC/hand cannoneers. Burmese. +1 attack per age for infantry bonus should go to Byzantines and instead Burmese gets Elephant archers that are also cheaper. (Strong expensive Battle elephants and Cheap elephant archers) Inca Should gain a UU in archery range : Quechua Bolas Warrior (Shared unit with the Mapuches) Quechua ranged infantry that hurls bolas for a wide area of effect. The bola slows down/ensnares enemies and does slight area damage (mostly against archers). Good against cavalry. Receives a free Chasqui each age. Chasqui - Inca scout with a great deal of utility. Can build outposts. When attacking, the Chasqui uses its quipu as a weapon. Franks/Britons/Genoa/SiciliansPortuguese Crusader (Kite shield+Nasal helm + chainmail) sword and spear infantry,Knights,crossbows, monk, Trebuchet civs. (Britons - Longbow archer skins) Add some more special units to represent the knightly,chivalric Crusader orders , such as a Templar knight or a Hospitaller knight to the Franks/British/Italian/Sicilians , Templar having the option to convert 1 unit for every charge up and the Hospitaller having the option to heal 1 unit for every charge up. Templar and Hospitaller knights do extremely little damage to enemy villagers (Right clicking on an enemy villager will either convert the villager (Templar) or heal the villager (Hospitalar) but they gain a +2 attack boost + 25% HP(Or conversion resistance) when within LOS of a Relic or friendly church containing one or more relics..Gains attributes from all monastery techs except Redemption: Templar + Hospitallers are very weak to siege damage. Genoa - Only Hospitalars Franks/Britons/Sicilians - Both Hospitalars & Templars Portuguese - Only Templars Or perhaps add these as technologies that can be researched in the Church 'Templar Order' & 'Hospitaller order' that will grant the already existing knights of the British/Franks/Italians/Sicilians/Portuguese these abilities. (Portuguese only gain access to Templars (Ordem dos Cavaleiros de Cristo)) Messo/SA civs do bonus damage to Templars/Hospitilars so you don’t want to make them when fighting in the New World. Hospitallar skin sketchfab.com/3d-models/knight-hospitaller-game-ready-character-animated-31333109719e4457b2052f8b2feb435f drive.google.com/file/d/1w5KGwMdhM6CxTBHLOhELgrr4PCk4F07N/view?usp=share_link Templar skin drive.google.com/file/d/1waT5xjY2vvMSN7RrTcOpub-8PvmGb4s2/view?usp=share_link drive.google.com/file/d/1FRo0mECvqtnh9Kch42whad-vsQpsKKZ-/view?usp=share_link The Ayyubids allowed Baldwin IV of Jerusalem to enter Ascalon with his Gaza-based Knights Templar without taking any precautions against a sudden attack. Although the Crusader force consisted of only 375 knights, Saladin hesitated to ambush them because of the presence of highly skilled generals. Saladin and his men were surprised near Ramla in the battle of Montgisard (possibly at Gezer, also known as Tell Jezar). Before they could form up, the Templar force decimated the Ayyubid army. Initially, Saladin attempted to organise his men into battle order, but as his bodyguards were being killed, he saw that defeat was inevitable and so with a small remnant of his troops mounted a swift camel, riding all the way to the territories of Egypt. Islamic civs In turn the Islamic civs:Saracens,Kurds, Turks, Tartars,Afghans, can receive a tech in the mosque called: Jizya tax, for every knightly unit they convert, you receive 10gold in castle age and 20gold in imperial age. Mediterranean Pirates: Saracens,Kurds,Berbers,Turks: Warships Destroying a full trade cog allows the gold to be looted and added to your stockpile. Saracens ‘’Counterweights’’ tech gets replaced by a new tech; Arabian horses +10% cavalry speed. (Cavalry not Camelry)
It really speaks for the game and the developers that the worst tier now is C. There are no more downright bad and unplayable civs, they just shine in different circumstances, maps and play styles. Also great that the new civs seem fairly balanced right out of the gate, no more game and meta breaking bs or completely lackluster. Also I still think Persians could use something to make them a bit more unique.
I would have put Slavs and Teutons a tier higher. Their castle age pushes can be very strong, unlike civs like Dravidians and Portugese. I may also have put Vikings a tier higher, they have a favourable matchup against all civs from A- tier imo
I'd love to see a tier list for team games too. Been watching the BoA vids on Memb's channel lately and surprised to see the popularity and success of certain civs. Saracens, for example, are one of my favorite civs and they seem to be more of a popular choice than I was expecting (though can't say I know the team game meta all that well) and a lot of people seem to really like their team bonus and their late game options.
Team game meta is largely focused around cavalry and archer civs. Archer civs usually occupy flank positions because archers are strong DPS that is less mobile than cavalry so you want them closer to the enemy to do damage ASAP. Cavalry civs are generally pocket positions because cavalry is more eco intensive and more mobile, so you need room for farm eco away from the opponent and the bigger distance isn't as much of a deal for reinforcing. In 3v3 there's 2 archer flanks so Saracens make a lot of sense as they drastically improve the capacity for both flanks to break into defenses in feudal/castle. Their market is helpful for coordinating with teammates and lets them hit good age up timings. Their range is fully fleshed out and their arbalests get full upgrades, and they can switch into siege support for pushes in Imp as well. They work really well as an Archer civ for teamgames, particularly 3v3 or 4v4, for these reasons.
@@MathewCowdery It's just generally easier to go for archers. You can mass archers starting from Feudal Age and you don't need to make a tech switch in castle age so it's easier to boom and hit age up timings. Things like skirmishers, cavalry, and eagle warriors aren't really an issue either becuase you have your own dedicated cav player.
Something I find weird with both Tatars and Vietnamese is that despite most people, especially pros, rating them fairly high is that they just don't seem to perform on the ranked ladder (both have been floating around 46% winrate for a long time) and unlike a civ like Chinese with their unusual start there's no obvious weird factor you can point at that makes them perform that way. They get an eco bonus, good options, power spikes and power units to compete so they don't have any big weakness either. My theory is that their eco and more powerfull bonusses just take too long to really kick in making them mediocre before mid castle age.
i think Vietnamese dont look like they have as diverse options as they do have. If you just railroad them like a worse Britons they gonna perform like that. At least Vikings have a stupid good eco for that plan. Tatars (like Saracens) is a civ that gets a lot stronger the higher level the player is. The defensive mapcontrol focused CA playstyle is really hard to master bc it wants you to boom and a micro intensive army for a long time.
Tatars have a tricky tech switch. Low elos also completely sleep on the overwhelming strength of the Keshiks. Vietnamese is a great civ, and pretty crazy late game. Most of these "good in late game" civs don't perform well on ladder, despite being high A tier.
@@hansoskar1911 Oh I couldn't disagree enough. Vietnamese are such a flexible civ, bloodlines, knights, Battle Eles, supplies with near FU infantry, decent Cav archers
But Ornlu, with Longswords buffed so much and with so many anti archer units in the game now, is Aztecs really favoured in all matchups? Like I just don't know how to counter certain civs like Hindustanis and Gurjaras with Aztecs now. But of course I am a noob.
On Battle Elephants being hard to balance with them getting too hard to get going or too strong, I think I'd like to see them making Camels specifically a lot stronger against them to the point that you'd want to pick a camel civ against an elephant civ.
oh, random suggestion, and it might be extra work, but hearing you express multiple times about feeling bad about the tiers civs were put in, maybe it would be better and clearer if the terms were descriptions rather then letter grades? Like, S tier could be "these civs have no bad matchups" and C tier is "too reliant on single strategies" something like that
I miss the old Burmese design. Arambai + the damage vs buildings tech was absolutely monstrous and so fun to play. I could make my peace with the arambai nerf but replacing the tech as well was really lame. Attack vs archers just means hussar spam, and in a late imperial setting battle elephants are actually viable so the Burmese super spongy battle elephants were already fine against archers, so the new tech feels pointless and doesn't address the civs problems at all while making them much less interesting. Maybe increasing the arambais pierce armour will address the civs archer weakness. The devs clearly don't want to improve the Burmese archery range options which I'm fine with considering Burmese have good infantry, cavalry and monks. The arambais attack works best against bunched up units so they should function well as an anti archer unit in theory, but they're currently far too frail to pull it off.
Fix elephant archer (less bonus damage from skirms). Give elephant archer to burmese, perhaps without elite. Let it benefit from the civ bonus and UT. They would get elephant archers with a potential 5 PA in castle age. Up to 7 PA in imp. Would be a nice archer counter for them and with lack of the archer armor not really broken. Would also be a nice for an elephant archer + battle elephant comp against archer civs which with cheaper Faith could actuslly work for them. Arambai would remain strong against cavalry civs.
@@steelprophecy5951 again, they aren't an archer civ. That would just encourage cavalry archers in the mid game rather than arambai. I also think it's a bonus better suited to an actual cav archer civ. If we ever got something like Jurchens or Tibetans it would be an appropriate bonus for them
Perhaps giving Elephant Archers to Burmese would legit help them with their poor archer matchup. They at least get Parthian Tactics to mitigate them only having he first archer armour upgrade.
It wouldn't fix it. The trouble of Burmese dealing with archers happens in the mid game. That is also when elephant archer is not viable because of their price and speed. In the late game, elephant archer starts to suck less but Burmese already has +6p armor elephant and Manipur cavalier and archers become much less of a problem.
Legit awesome suggestion flavor wise. They already aren't a fast civ and already need champions so that they don't die to halbs, so this would slot in perfectly I think.
Thank you for a great list, I disagree in a few areas. I would switch Chinese and Burgundians. Sicilians should be down a tier or two. Celts lower. Portuguese and Teutons higher (the new Fetoria has less wood but more gold, helping a ton on land maps.) Bengalis need to be up two tiers. They have the most dangerous of the new armored/siege elephants. When fully upgraded they attack 20% faster, they resist monks, they take 25% less bonus damage from the spearman line, are fully upgraded at the blacksmith and their blast area kills any villagers quickly. While you are worried about the Ratha I would be ripping through your eco with armored elephants with a few extra attacking battle elephants sprinkled in.
Persia I hope the Caravanserai is given to Persia as well (or Nerf Hindustanis by giving Caravanserai to Persia) since they used the caravanserai the most. China Shared unit (Shared with Tibet) Showlin Monk. Can convert and defend itself with a staff whilst conversion is under cool down.(Long cool down due to meditation) Weak damage output but can absorb/doge incoming melee attacks . Building the Chinese wonder should unlock UU Dock: Treasure fleet ship - gargantuan sailing vessel ,extremely expensive but vast in size, Multi mast ships. Bohemians I love the Bohemian build, the waggons do exactly what they did in reality, act as a mobile barrier to protect their Halbs, HC, Crossbowmen and cannon from incoming projectiles. The innovation of the Bohemians is wonderful. The only change I would give them would be to help solidify the use of defensive wagon, Halbs, HC, Crossbowmen and cannon squares. Bohemians should get a castle age buff but an Imp nerf. They lose arbalesters but their castle age crossbows get +1 range and or attack. Polish If they want to nerf Poland I would like it if Szlachta privileges gets nerfed and Lechitic Legacy or Winged Hussar get a slight cost reduction. Celts. I love that the Devs used Brave Heart as inspiration for the celts and went with the early to high middle ages build and not high to late middle ages. The only way I would alter the DE2 Celts are as follows: UT imp:Furor Celtica Ram +40% HP and increased Ram speed. Stable Light cav No knight available in castle age but upon reaching imp you can automatically train cavalier (Same goes for Gaels/Irish) To show their lack of heavy cav until the Hospitallars set up a branch HQ in Scotland in th 1200’s AD. AR Archer - Crossbowmen (But wielding a regular bow) (Same goes for Gaels/Irish) Elite skirm should have +1 Melee armour and also benefit from the Infantry move 15% faster bonus. SW Siege ram Mangonel Scorpion Gurjaras. Nerf Gurjaras by giving their ‘’Can garrison fishing ships in Dock’’ ability to an Africa/Messo civ team bonus that only has canoe navies. Songhai Team bonus: Africa/Messo civs with canoe navies Can garrison fishing ships in Dock. I love the Gurjaras especially their Shrivamshra riders, they are built to counter the boring, repetitive archer metta of a lot of ''pros''. Steppe tribes Nomadic architecture set for the Nomad civs, Mongols get Yurt houses and steppe Nomad architecture. Tartars + Cumans get Yurts for dark age houses and Huns too get steppe Nomad architecture. The Mongol Yurts should have less HP but also be much cheaper. With their Unique tech 'Nomads'' if their cheap , low HP Yurts goes down, then they need not create more. It will be perfect. Nomad tech should give you the opportunity of packing up your tc and rebuild it for free. (Moving ox cart) Armenians should get the current Tatar extra Hill bonus damage for all their units in exchange for faster moving CA + only CA does 15% more hill bonus damage + Tatar, Mongol and Hun scouts have the ability to lame enemies hunt/livestock.(Scorched earth tactics) These civs should also get to train op to 5 hunting wolves in the Dark age (Cost 25 food) Huns should also get steppe lancers (I can’t believe this was not the case from day one.) Rus. Gain a civ bonus or dock tech: Ice breakers - on winter maps ships movement speed +10%
Vikings Civ rework NB Norse/Vikings Pagan, early aggression, raiding using Infantry, cheap trash,Strong Agnon Skirms, transported in longboats. Architecture: Norse architecture that resemble their beautiful Norse church wonder. UU castle: Berserk (infantry) - Unique infantry unit that slowly heals itself. (Dane axe + round shield on back) Can repair Longboats UU Dock: Longboat (warship) - Unique ship that fires multiple arrows (from castle age) as well as transport foot units (Infantry/skirms/vils/monks/kings only) In feudal age Longboats can’t fire arrows. Longboats transporting skirmishers gain added pierce armour and attack. Feudal age longboats transporting skirmishers gains an attack. UT Imp: Chieftains Longforts - Beserkers can be trained in docks. UT castel: Berserkergang (Berserks regenerate faster) Civ bonus1: Dane Geld:Skirmishers, Pikemen, Halberdiers cost -25% Civ bonus2: Infantry and skirms +20% hit points starting in Feudal Age Civ bonus3:Warships+fishing ships cost -15% Feudal Age, -15% Castle Age, -20% Imperial Age Civ bonus4: When infantry destroys an eco building 100 of the connected resource gets looted and added to your stockpile. Lumber camp = 100 Wood Mill = 100 food Dock = 100 Food Mining Camp = 100 gold + 200 Stone Market = 300 Gold Monastery = 500 gold TC = 500 gold If allied to Byzantines, both civs gain access to: the technology of Varangian Guard from the Feudal age. In Feudal age , Byzantine army (As well as Norse allies) gain access to a special unit in the Barracks called the Varangian Guard. - Expensive , slow moving with a limited build amount. Since the Byzantines are a Defensive civ, the Varangian Guards have a high attack boost when in the vicinity of a TC or Castle but outside a certain radius from these buildings the VG lose the strong attack bonus and are just as strong as a normal Man at Arms/Long Sword/Champion. (guards of the Emperor) To defend against early rushes , but since they are expensive,slow and limited, you will have to think strategically as to when and where to deploy/station them. (Automatically upgrades with each age) If allied to the Franks, Norse gain access to Throwing axemen in the Castle. Team Bonus: Arson becomes available in the feudal age. (Civs whom did not have access to arson now do gain access to arson) Barracks: Champion Up to long sword - Round shield + small war axe 2handed sword to Champion - Round Shield + sword Halb - Round shield spear line Stable: Light cav AR: Elite Skirm - Angon Skirms (does slightly more damage to villagers) archer SW: Siege ram Siege onager scorpion Dock: Fire galley War galley Heavy Demo Transport ship UU - Longboat (warship) - Unique ship that fires multiple arrows (from castle age) as well as transport foot units (Infantry/vils/monks/kings only) In feudal age Longboats can’t fire arrows. Longboats transporting skirmishers gain added pierce armour and attack. Feudal age longboats transporting skirmishers gains an attack. No shipwrite Pagan Temple: No Redemption No atonement No Theocracy No Illumination No Herrecy Blacksmith: No plate boarding armour University: No keep No BBT No Siege engineers No fortified wall Don’t gain access to Livestock penn unless allied to the Swedes. No crop Rotation Wonder: Borgund/Hedel/Hopperstad Stave Church Swedes/Kalmar Union Christian , late game focus, expensive units , using Hand cannoneers, Arbs, Knights + warhammer plated infantry to crush their enemies. Architecture: Current ‘’Viking set’’. Kalmar castle Visby/Gotland Castle Monnestary - Lund Cathedral UU castle: Plated war hammer infantry (Heater shield + one handed war hammer) Slightly stronger than a longsword (Regular) and Champion (Elite) but does bonus damage vs other Swedish units (To depict the numerous civil wars within the Kalmar union) Weak vs Cav + gunpowder, average vs archers, strong vs siege + buildings + infantry , very strong vs other Swedish units except for cavalry. UT Castel:Danish Reformation - Swordline + Knight line gain + 25HP UT Imp: Vryborg bang - All guard towers become upgraded to BBT and when a BBT gets destroyed , it explodes and inflicts area damage around it. (To allied and enemy forces) Sallet helmet - sword line + arbs gain +1 melee armour Civ bonus1: Pete houses - Houses built on grass or snow terrain cost - 50% wood. Civ bonus2:Torps - Houses built next to Berries and woodlines increases villager collection rates of these resources. Civ bonus3:Burkals - Hunt generates the same amount of gold as they do food (Selling of furs) Civ bonus 4:House of Vasa - if allied to Poland you gain access to Winged Hussaria Team Bonus: Elk/Reindeer can be bred in the livestock penn wich provides more food (and more gold for the Swedes) in cold /winter maps Barracks: Kiteshield ,nasal helm swordsmen up to Long sword Two handed swordmen - Plate armoured Heater shield swordmen Spearmen - Kite Shield - Pikemen - Heater shield ,Halb - Plated halberdier no shield Stable: Cavalier wearing plate armour and Sallet helmet Light cav No husbandry AR: Arb Handcannonner Elite skirm SW: BBC Onager Ram Dock: Gallion Fire ship Demo ship University: No Keep Wonder: Uppsala Cathedral Historical battle: Battle of Brunkeberg 1471 AD. Campaign in the Levant with the Norwegian Crusades under Sigurd the Crusader 1115 AD Siege of Sidon
Goths should loose the zombie loom bonus and get “can research technologies and create units at the same time”. This would keep their aggressive identity by letting them tech switch easily and give them a good eco (loom,wheelbarrow,handcart).
Well considering I posted about it on Twitter, talked about it on my stream, and mentioned it in my discord.... I don't really think it was a secret 11
Spain civ rework NB Kingdom of Aragon Early Medieval Civ Knight+monk civ Crusader (Kite shield+Nasal helm + chainmail) sword and spear infantry,Knights,crossbows, monk, (Reconquista) focus.(Rams + Trebs + siege tower) With a blend of Moorish + Christian European crusader unit skins. Castelio de Lorca Castelio de la Mota UU castle : Unctioned Knight: Same stats as a cavalier/regular and Paladin/elite but it gains + 2 attack when in the vicinity of a Monk/Missionary. UU Monastery: Missionary (Shared with Castile) Brilliant to use in tandem with Unctioned Knights, to heal them and provide an attack boost. (And to convert enemies) UT1: Inquisition (Monks convert faster) UT2:Men of Asturias/The Order of Calatrava - Knight line gain a slight cost increase but they + Unctioned Knight have an increase in HP as well as +1 melee armour. Civ bonus1:Can create SW/siege tower in feudal age + siege towers are cheaper. Civ bonus2: Builders work 30% faster. Civ bonus3: Blacksmith upgrades don't cost gold. Civ bonus4: Infantry + crossbows exiting a siege tower gain a +1 attack buff for 60 seconds. Team Bonus: Trade units generate +25% gold. Barracks: Champion - Crusader skin : Nasal helm, Kite shield + sword Halb - Crusader skin : Nasal helm, Kite shield + Spear Stable Paladin Hussar (Berber allies skin) AR Crossbow (With Bracer) CA Elite skirm (Berber Allies skin) SW Siege Tower (From feudal age) Siege ram Mangonel Monastery: Monk Missionary Dock: Galion Fast Fire Heavy demo No cannon galleon Full Blacksmith University: Lacks BBT Lacks treadmill crane Woner: Torre Del Oro Kingdom of Castile. Late Medieval civ Naval,gunpowder,Pike civ With a focus on Conquistadors, cannon galleons, gunboats, halbs and hand cannon. (Pike and shot) (BBC,BBT) 15th century Sword infantry (Plate armour) Exclusively European skins such as the skins in DE3 Spain. Castelio de Bellver Castelio de Peñafiel. UU:Conquistador UU dock: Gunboat - small single cannon/gun Boat. Somewhat expensive, but powerful boat good at blasting ships from a medium distance. Fire rate and damage between A galleon and cannon galleon , Brilliant for targeting demolition ships , only slightly stronger than galleon anti building damage. Less HP than a galleon but also slightly faster. UU Monastery: Missionary (Shared with Aragon) Castle age Barracks UU Rodelero: Fast-moving sword and buckler infantry Good for countering gunpowder units + pike men + siege + monks. Weak vs Cav, archers,Skirmishers, defensive buildings, sword line. UT1:Spanish Treasure fleets - Gold brought back from the new world help to pay for new Gallions: Gallions gold cost removed. UT2: Tercios (Pike and shot): Pikemen in the vicinity of hand cannoneers gain + 2 attack Civ bonus 1:Age up to Castle age is cheaper. Civ bonus 2: Gunpowder units fire 18% faster. Civ bonus3:Cannon Galleons benefit from Ballistics (fire faster, more accurately). Civ bonus 4:Gain access to Rodelero,Gunboat and Garrochistas Civ bonus 5: BBT are built faster. Team Bonus:Grants Cannon galleon to allies whom do not have it. (Mezzo canoe allies) And grants faster moving cannon galleons to allies whom do have access to them. Barracks: Champion Caudillo Halb - Good against cavalry and buildings. (slight Extra building damage) Castle age UU Rodelero: Fast-moving sword and buckler rapier infantry Good for countering gunpowder units. Upgrades to Espadachins Rodelero deal less damage against infantry and buildings compared to the champion but its high speed and resistance to gunpowder makes them good vs siege and gunpowder , weak vs cavalry,archers, average vs infantry similar to long swordsmen and when upgraded to Espadachins they are similar to two handed swordsmen. Weak anti building damage compared to the champion even with arson. Agile swordsmen with a buckler could better evade the deadly iron of densely packed pikes and could take formations apart from the inside. Thus they are strong vs spear line but are quite weak against skirms. Stable Knight - Garrochistas Spanish lancer (Similar to Cavalier) Very weak to conversions. Slightly stronger vs spear line than a cavalier but much weaker to camel units than a cavalier. . Light cav AR Hand cannoneer Crossbow men (Lacks bracer) Elite skirm (Messo allies skin) SW BBC ram mangonel Monastery: Monk Missionary Dock: UU: Gunboat - small single cannon/gun Boat. Somewhat expensive, but powerful boat good at blasting ships from a medium distance. Fire rate and damage between A galleon and cannon galleon , Brilliant for targeting demolition ships , only slightly stronger than galleon anti building damage. Lacks heavy demo Lacks Fast fire ship Blacksmith Lacks bracer Lacks plate boarding armour University: Lacks Heated Shot Lacks Siege Engineers No Sappers Wonder:Alcázar de Segovia Or Cathedral of Seville
Hey Ornlu, I think free skirm armor on Koreans meaning you can delay a blacksmith on its own is better than anything Bohemians get in feudal. I think Koreans should be B, and Bohemians should be C.
I'm not very good at the game. However, I never ever lose as Vietnamese, they're the best civ for me, so easy to use and actually have decent cavalry and tanky chonkers - S tier for sure!
french must be S Tier sadly, they still have a pretty high winrate (on any elo) And gurjara is the most broken civ atm, so A is the wrong call for them :D
To balance Battle elephants I think we should think about introducing greater than one pop requirements for units. Back in the day we played with 50 pop or 75 pop in aoe1 or aok respectively due to technical limitations. With so little pop space for military it doesnt make sense to have a unit take more than one spot cause then you have basically nothing on the field. That is where the tradition of all units having one pop requirement comes from. But I feel 22 years later, the freedom to choose pop as an individual quantity to tune balance is missing. We cant just make elephants in castle age cheaper to get going and thus be used in 1v1 because then in tgs you just face close over 60 of them probably. This would change if there is a maximum number of elephants you can make which would be described by them costing 2 or 1.5 pop. Then its impossible to have more than 40 for sure. At the moment, the unit cost is used as an indirect pop requirement as any ress on the cost comes with a villager that needs to work for it. I want to change that for a direct system. So you can lower cost overall to make them more present in castle age when pop limit isnt that hard of a hinderance just need enough houses. But then in late game when you close to pop limit you cant do much more which keeps a big elephant snowball at bay.
One option to fix them, there are dozens of others to explore though. In tgs lategame they are strong but that's also because trash units and monks are not really a thing lategame teamgames. The elephant could be buffed against it's counters while not against other stuff so in teamgames they stay about the same but are easier to use in 1v1. The elite upgrades could also be made much cheaper.
YES! I love Genitours ! ☺ ''Britons arn't that mobile'' , I just watched a game where Vinch crushed an Ethiopian boring archer meta army with Briton Knights. This man is just squawking repetitive ,boring 2Dimentional meta.
Solid list. I'd drop aztecs, sicilians and tatars. All lack the economy to be in the tier they are imo. Aztecs also just got a terrible matchup in hindustani now, their UU is just flat out better than your eagle and not much you can do against it (you go jaguar warrior, they roll you with HC). Franks, Berbers and Ethiopians deserve higher imo. Perhaps im just valueing cavalry spam with good eco bonuses too much though.
So how come Bengalis can't be played as worse Vikings? The Bengali's eco bonus is definitely not quite as good, but it's still pretty strong, and both of their tech trees are terrible, so how come the Bengalis are so much worse?
Vikings eco bonus kicks in sooner, plus they have knights. Having knights doesn't mean you go all in, but having the possibility of going archers, then add a stable and train 2-3 knights just to kill skirms or mangonels, without them dying to 2-3 pikes like light cavalry do.
They can be played as a worse Vikings... But that still lands them in C-tier 111. Bengalis are generally best-suited to going for Rathas + trash in my experience (for 1v1 Arabia. On closed maps and in TGs you can bring out the elephants!)
@@OrnLu_AoE i guess... I just always found it weird that cavalry attack speed bonus was the only attack speed bonus to be unlock through a tech, maybe because it would be harder to balance for cavalry since they have speed going for them
Having unlimited gold, you're right. But Magyar Hussar >> Mongol Hussar and the lack of the last wood and mill upgrades make a little bit of a difference. However I get the point, mass Mangudais are just unstoppable
Hey Ornlu, I don't think Bengalis are bottom tier. I'd prefer them over Portugese, Bohemians and Turks for example, just use them like a poor man's Vikings (their eco bonus is really good, about 2/3 as good as Vikings) and ignore all of the dogshit non-siege elephant units and you have yourself a mid tier civ. While their eco is worse than that of Vikings, they get bloodlines and plate barding, and their eco isn't that much worse.
"Is it really an Ornlu video if I don't immediately put Aztecs in S tier?"
Well, I suppose that explains why you don't make Islands tier lists.
43:06 "you shouldn't punch wolves man"
Sounds like something Ornulu the Wolf would say
If I have not messed up my counting, compared to the last tierlist there have been 16 Civs that moved tiers. Of those 16: 8 went up exactly 1 tier, Indians/Hindustani jumped 2 tiers and the remaining 7 Byz, Celts, Huns, Lith, Mali, Slav, Vik went down 1 tier .
Slavs are the only civ that was B tier or lower last patch that moved down the tierlist.
Indians/Hindustani now have come full circle starting at S tier in 5.7, dropping down to D tier by December 2020 and now returning to S tier.
Britons remain steady at A tier since Ornlus first tierlist on WK 5.7.
you sure indians were D tier in arabia tierlist not design tier list
@@robchang4533 1 th-cam.com/video/qiG3ho6YgHI/w-d-xo.html
It was just after they lost plate barding, though Ornlu possibly undervalued them a bit in that patch i guess.
@@Leibniz-ct6dx Ok I cant understand that assessment at all :D He kinda says they auto lose to archer civs then, but on arabia imp is pretty seldom.
"The button" LMAO.. Ornlu for casting rbw5 let's goooo
Keep making these tier lists!
14:08 That's not true, Burmese is my favourite AoE civ. Glory to Arambais.
Ornlu's back! I hope you will recover soon. I liked your tierlist, agree with pretty much everything, maybe I would put Tatars one tier lower and Malians one tier higher but the rest was spot on. Always nice to see another S tier civ too, I hope Hindustanis won't be nerfed into oblivion in the next big patch, it's boring to always have the same civs at the top
They were kind of S tier even before they became Hindustanis. They're just even better now.
5:20 Bengalis
7:14 Berbers - S++ tier
8:37 Bohemians
9:42 South Celts
11:07 Bulgars
12:23 Burgundians
14:08 Burmese - S tier
15:40 Byzantines
16:44 Galatians
17:46 Chinese
19:46 Cumans
21:30 Dravidians
23:33 Ethiopians
24:54 French
25:39 Goths
26:48 Gurjaras
29:18 Indians
30:59 Huns
31:51 Incas - F tier
32:42 Genoese
33:24 Japanese
35:35 Choson
36:35 Lithuanians
37:57 Magyars
39:15 Malay
40:11 Malians
42:31 Mangudais
51:27 Tatars
43:54 Persians
44:57 Pole Dancing
47:03 Portuguese
47:48 Saracens
48:51 Sicilians
49:49 Rus
50:43 Spanish
52:52 HRE
53:44 Turks
54:45 Vietnamese
55:55 Danes
Thank you!
@@BGrumpy No problem, as long as you don't main mayans
@@quantranminh9203 Speaking of, you forgot to add Mayans to the time stamps.
@@ashurarbaces8069 Mesoes don't exist
At around 1150 elo, infantry as in longswords works really well. Most players go scouts into knights regardless which civ. Longswords + pikes (or even just spears in early castle) beat them straight up. They switch archers, you add siege and at some point, the mangos will get them... not if but when.
And yeah... Burgundians are very strong. Even when not taking the eco upgrades early, they're at least cheap, stable techs cost less and while cavalier in castle age doesn't shred, they are basically fully upgraded knights with +2 attack. I feel the handcannons are a little overlooked. 21 attack is no joke. To put it into perspective, it takes 60 fully upgraded arbs to one-shot paladins but only 13 Burgundian handcannons (or 15 if we account for some stray shots).
Civs where one has the choice of taking boni into account (like Folwarks or Burgundian eco techs) are so much more interesting than just +20% gathering rate from X resource.
Burgundians should probably be S tier.
Their eco/military bonus is just really strong. Franks for example by castle age save costs on farms techs (200f 200w), bloodlines (150f 100g) and benefit about 100w with faster berry gathering. Total benefit about 750 resources when going knights.
Burgundians however save 362 f on eco techs by castle age (wheelbarrow, farm&wood techs, 1st gold tech) and 75f on husbandry. Cavalier arguably better and cheaper than bloodlines and blacksmith techs. The earlier wood upgrades also benefit tremendously being worth at least 200 wood. Overall their savings by castle age start to surpass franks really fast who have insane benefits already.
The lack of a D Tier brings a tear of joy to my eye. Thanks for this Ornlu!
I like the narrowing of the tiers, B always ends up congested otherwise. It is positive that there are so few civs that would be a genuine 'groan' to random into on Arabia at the moment.
Some help with the tier list: Aztecs should be A tier, while Britons and Bengalis, together with Berbers, Bohemians, Bulgarians, Burgundians, Byzantines, Burmese belong in B tier. Celts, Cumans and Chinese- C tier.
I agree. Vikings definitely V tier.
How come I can’t see TH-cam replies
African ,Mezzo,
Civs that do not gain access to Good cavalry,nor gunpowder,nor elephants and a weak navy should instead receive strong bonuses for their infantry, villagers and trash.
African and mezzo civs should only have canoe navies. Able to fire arrows ,fast ,agile and only using 0.5 pop space but they don't have access to Gally line, nor cannon. Gallons. All canoes can carry/transport 3-5 units and are trained twice as fast as regular ships. Don’t have access to fire ships but get fire canoes that shoot fat covered fire arrows (Fat burns intensely hot). Tech in dock:Fat covered fire arrows - +3 attack to canoes.
Canoes transporting skirmishers gain added pierce armour,attack and range.
Canoe upgrades are half the cost of regular ship upgrades and come in immediately when you research them.
Give the imperial Skirmisher Team bonus (Vietnamese) to a Sub Sahara African civ (Shona people).
Sub Sahara African civs get African huts as Dark age houses. (Already in game.)
Saracen + Berber+Turks + Kurds dark age houses should be Berber tents (Already in game.)
Lithuanians
‘’Skirmishers and spearmen move 10% faster’’ bonus should go to a new Mapuches/Tarascans civ that forms part of a New DLC.
And the (Spearman-line and Skirmishers +2P armour) should go to the Zaputechs.
In turn Lithuanians towershields tech applies to their crossbows and their sword line. .
Dravidians
I would love to see the Dravidian ‘’Skirmishers attack 25% faster’’ bonus go to a new Mapuches/Tarascans civ that forms part of a New DLC
Tribes of the Tropics DLC
Taíno/Arawak peoples / Carib kingdom/Tupi
Zaputechs
Mapuches/Tarascans.
Toltecs
Polynesians/ Tuʻi Tonga Empire.
In turn the Dravidian Urumi gains the ability to build/repair docks and faster firing BBC/hand cannoneers.
Burmese.
+1 attack per age for infantry bonus should go to Byzantines and instead Burmese gets Elephant archers that are also cheaper. (Strong expensive Battle elephants and Cheap elephant archers)
Inca
Should gain a UU in archery range : Quechua Bolas Warrior (Shared unit with the Mapuches) Quechua ranged infantry that hurls bolas for a wide area of effect. The bola slows down/ensnares enemies and does slight area damage (mostly against archers). Good against cavalry.
Receives a free Chasqui each age.
Chasqui - Inca scout with a great deal of utility. Can build outposts. When attacking, the Chasqui uses its quipu as a weapon.
Franks/Britons/Genoa/SiciliansPortuguese
Crusader (Kite shield+Nasal helm + chainmail) sword and spear infantry,Knights,crossbows, monk, Trebuchet civs. (Britons - Longbow archer skins)
Add some more special units to represent the knightly,chivalric Crusader orders , such as a Templar knight or a Hospitaller knight to the Franks/British/Italian/Sicilians , Templar having the option to convert 1 unit for every charge up and the Hospitaller having the option to heal 1 unit for every charge up.
Templar and Hospitaller knights do extremely little damage to enemy villagers (Right clicking on an enemy villager will either convert the villager (Templar) or heal the villager (Hospitalar) but they gain a +2 attack boost + 25% HP(Or conversion resistance) when within LOS of a Relic or friendly church containing one or more relics..Gains attributes from all monastery techs except Redemption:
Templar + Hospitallers are very weak to siege damage.
Genoa - Only Hospitalars
Franks/Britons/Sicilians - Both Hospitalars & Templars
Portuguese - Only Templars
Or perhaps add these as technologies that can be researched in the Church 'Templar Order' & 'Hospitaller order' that will grant the already existing knights of the British/Franks/Italians/Sicilians/Portuguese these abilities.
(Portuguese only gain access to Templars (Ordem dos Cavaleiros de Cristo))
Messo/SA civs do bonus damage to Templars/Hospitilars so you don’t want to make them when fighting in the New World.
Hospitallar skin
sketchfab.com/3d-models/knight-hospitaller-game-ready-character-animated-31333109719e4457b2052f8b2feb435f
drive.google.com/file/d/1w5KGwMdhM6CxTBHLOhELgrr4PCk4F07N/view?usp=share_link
Templar skin
drive.google.com/file/d/1waT5xjY2vvMSN7RrTcOpub-8PvmGb4s2/view?usp=share_link
drive.google.com/file/d/1FRo0mECvqtnh9Kch42whad-vsQpsKKZ-/view?usp=share_link
The Ayyubids allowed Baldwin IV of Jerusalem to enter Ascalon with his Gaza-based Knights Templar without taking any precautions against a sudden attack. Although the Crusader force consisted of only 375 knights, Saladin hesitated to ambush them because of the presence of highly skilled generals.
Saladin and his men were surprised near Ramla in the battle of Montgisard (possibly at Gezer, also known as Tell Jezar). Before they could form up, the Templar force decimated the Ayyubid army. Initially, Saladin attempted to organise his men into battle order, but as his bodyguards were being killed, he saw that defeat was inevitable and so with a small remnant of his troops mounted a swift camel, riding all the way to the territories of Egypt.
Islamic civs
In turn the Islamic civs:Saracens,Kurds, Turks, Tartars,Afghans, can receive a tech in the mosque called: Jizya tax, for every knightly unit they convert, you receive 10gold in castle age and 20gold in imperial age.
Mediterranean Pirates: Saracens,Kurds,Berbers,Turks: Warships Destroying a full trade cog allows the gold to be looted and added to your stockpile.
Saracens ‘’Counterweights’’ tech gets replaced by a new tech; Arabian horses +10% cavalry speed.
(Cavalry not Camelry)
It really speaks for the game and the developers that the worst tier now is C. There are no more downright bad and unplayable civs, they just shine in different circumstances, maps and play styles. Also great that the new civs seem fairly balanced right out of the gate, no more game and meta breaking bs or completely lackluster. Also I still think Persians could use something to make them a bit more unique.
I mean its just ornlu abolishing c tier for no reason
It pays off to stick to working on a game for 2 decades.
I would have put Slavs and Teutons a tier higher. Their castle age pushes can be very strong, unlike civs like Dravidians and Portugese. I may also have put Vikings a tier higher, they have a favourable matchup against all civs from A- tier imo
Hi, how come I can’t see TH-cam comments, can you see mine?
I'd love to see a tier list for team games too. Been watching the BoA vids on Memb's channel lately and surprised to see the popularity and success of certain civs. Saracens, for example, are one of my favorite civs and they seem to be more of a popular choice than I was expecting (though can't say I know the team game meta all that well) and a lot of people seem to really like their team bonus and their late game options.
Team game meta is largely focused around cavalry and archer civs. Archer civs usually occupy flank positions because archers are strong DPS that is less mobile than cavalry so you want them closer to the enemy to do damage ASAP. Cavalry civs are generally pocket positions because cavalry is more eco intensive and more mobile, so you need room for farm eco away from the opponent and the bigger distance isn't as much of a deal for reinforcing. In 3v3 there's 2 archer flanks so Saracens make a lot of sense as they drastically improve the capacity for both flanks to break into defenses in feudal/castle. Their market is helpful for coordinating with teammates and lets them hit good age up timings. Their range is fully fleshed out and their arbalests get full upgrades, and they can switch into siege support for pushes in Imp as well. They work really well as an Archer civ for teamgames, particularly 3v3 or 4v4, for these reasons.
@@rovsea-3761 Thanks for the explanation! Random question: why don't we see more cavalry archers in BoA? Or at least I haven't noticed any.
@@MathewCowdery It's just generally easier to go for archers. You can mass archers starting from Feudal Age and you don't need to make a tech switch in castle age so it's easier to boom and hit age up timings. Things like skirmishers, cavalry, and eagle warriors aren't really an issue either becuase you have your own dedicated cav player.
Something I find weird with both Tatars and Vietnamese is that despite most people, especially pros, rating them fairly high is that they just don't seem to perform on the ranked ladder (both have been floating around 46% winrate for a long time) and unlike a civ like Chinese with their unusual start there's no obvious weird factor you can point at that makes them perform that way. They get an eco bonus, good options, power spikes and power units to compete so they don't have any big weakness either.
My theory is that their eco and more powerfull bonusses just take too long to really kick in making them mediocre before mid castle age.
i think Vietnamese dont look like they have as diverse options as they do have. If you just railroad them like a worse Britons they gonna perform like that. At least Vikings have a stupid good eco for that plan.
Tatars (like Saracens) is a civ that gets a lot stronger the higher level the player is. The defensive mapcontrol focused CA playstyle is really hard to master bc it wants you to boom and a micro intensive army for a long time.
Tatars have a tricky tech switch. Low elos also completely sleep on the overwhelming strength of the Keshiks.
Vietnamese is a great civ, and pretty crazy late game. Most of these "good in late game" civs don't perform well on ladder, despite being high A tier.
@@hansoskar1911 Oh I couldn't disagree enough.
Vietnamese are such a flexible civ, bloodlines, knights, Battle Eles, supplies with near FU infantry, decent Cav archers
@@krityaan we arent actually disagreeing lmao
@@hansoskar1911 oops
insta like, love tierlists vids, ty!!
Does the mongol cav archer bonus extend to mangudais as well?
"is it really an Ornlu video if I don't put the Aztecs in S tier ?"
Cavalry civs tier list ?
But Ornlu, with Longswords buffed so much and with so many anti archer units in the game now, is Aztecs really favoured in all matchups? Like I just don't know how to counter certain civs like Hindustanis and Gurjaras with Aztecs now. But of course I am a noob.
On Battle Elephants being hard to balance with them getting too hard to get going or too strong, I think I'd like to see them making Camels specifically a lot stronger against them to the point that you'd want to pick a camel civ against an elephant civ.
A lot can happen in 6 months...
I'm also recovering from covid. So I feel you there.
Me who only ever plays campaigns: yes fascinating
oh, random suggestion, and it might be extra work, but hearing you express multiple times about feeling bad about the tiers civs were put in, maybe it would be better and clearer if the terms were descriptions rather then letter grades?
Like, S tier could be "these civs have no bad matchups" and C tier is "too reliant on single strategies" something like that
I miss the old Burmese design. Arambai + the damage vs buildings tech was absolutely monstrous and so fun to play. I could make my peace with the arambai nerf but replacing the tech as well was really lame. Attack vs archers just means hussar spam, and in a late imperial setting battle elephants are actually viable so the Burmese super spongy battle elephants were already fine against archers, so the new tech feels pointless and doesn't address the civs problems at all while making them much less interesting.
Maybe increasing the arambais pierce armour will address the civs archer weakness. The devs clearly don't want to improve the Burmese archery range options which I'm fine with considering Burmese have good infantry, cavalry and monks.
The arambais attack works best against bunched up units so they should function well as an anti archer unit in theory, but they're currently far too frail to pull it off.
Just make parthian tactics affect them
@@jaggercrue that doesn't affect them in castle age, which is the main issue
Fix elephant archer (less bonus damage from skirms). Give elephant archer to burmese, perhaps without elite. Let it benefit from the civ bonus and UT.
They would get elephant archers with a potential 5 PA in castle age. Up to 7 PA in imp. Would be a nice archer counter for them and with lack of the archer armor not really broken. Would also be a nice for an elephant archer + battle elephant comp against archer civs which with cheaper Faith could actuslly work for them.
Arambai would remain strong against cavalry civs.
@@michaeltaylor8698 Parthian Tactics age earlier for Burmese
@@steelprophecy5951 again, they aren't an archer civ. That would just encourage cavalry archers in the mid game rather than arambai. I also think it's a bonus better suited to an actual cav archer civ. If we ever got something like Jurchens or Tibetans it would be an appropriate bonus for them
Perhaps giving Elephant Archers to Burmese would legit help them with their poor archer matchup. They at least get Parthian Tactics to mitigate them only having he first archer armour upgrade.
It wouldn't fix it. The trouble of Burmese dealing with archers happens in the mid game. That is also when elephant archer is not viable because of their price and speed. In the late game, elephant archer starts to suck less but Burmese already has +6p armor elephant and Manipur cavalier and archers become much less of a problem.
Legit awesome suggestion flavor wise. They already aren't a fast civ and already need champions so that they don't die to halbs, so this would slot in perfectly I think.
They should also get affected by Howdah
Thank you for a great list, I disagree in a few areas. I would switch Chinese and Burgundians. Sicilians should be down a tier or two. Celts lower. Portuguese and Teutons higher (the new Fetoria has less wood but more gold, helping a ton on land maps.) Bengalis need to be up two tiers. They have the most dangerous of the new armored/siege elephants. When fully upgraded they attack 20% faster, they resist monks, they take 25% less bonus damage from the spearman line, are fully upgraded at the blacksmith and their blast area kills any villagers quickly. While you are worried about the Ratha I would be ripping through your eco with armored elephants with a few extra attacking battle elephants sprinkled in.
Persia
I hope the Caravanserai is given to Persia as well (or Nerf Hindustanis by giving Caravanserai to Persia) since they used the caravanserai the most.
China
Shared unit (Shared with Tibet) Showlin Monk. Can convert and defend itself with a staff whilst conversion is under cool down.(Long cool down due to meditation) Weak damage output but can absorb/doge incoming melee attacks .
Building the Chinese wonder should unlock UU Dock: Treasure fleet ship - gargantuan sailing vessel ,extremely expensive but vast in size, Multi mast ships.
Bohemians
I love the Bohemian build, the waggons do exactly what they did in reality, act as a mobile barrier to protect their Halbs, HC, Crossbowmen and cannon from incoming projectiles.
The innovation of the Bohemians is wonderful. The only change I would give them would be to help solidify the use of defensive wagon, Halbs, HC, Crossbowmen and cannon squares.
Bohemians should get a castle age buff but an Imp nerf. They lose arbalesters but their castle age crossbows get +1 range and or attack.
Polish
If they want to nerf Poland I would like it if Szlachta privileges gets nerfed and Lechitic Legacy or Winged Hussar get a slight cost reduction.
Celts.
I love that the Devs used Brave Heart as inspiration for the celts and went with the early to high middle ages build and not high to late middle ages.
The only way I would alter the DE2 Celts are as follows:
UT imp:Furor Celtica Ram +40% HP and increased Ram speed.
Stable
Light cav
No knight available in castle age but upon reaching imp you can automatically train cavalier
(Same goes for Gaels/Irish) To show their lack of heavy cav until the Hospitallars set up a branch HQ in Scotland in th 1200’s AD.
AR
Archer - Crossbowmen (But wielding a regular bow) (Same goes for Gaels/Irish)
Elite skirm should have +1 Melee armour and also benefit from the Infantry move 15% faster bonus.
SW
Siege ram
Mangonel
Scorpion
Gurjaras.
Nerf Gurjaras by giving their ‘’Can garrison fishing ships in Dock’’ ability to an Africa/Messo civ team bonus that only has canoe navies.
Songhai Team bonus: Africa/Messo civs with canoe navies Can garrison fishing ships in Dock.
I love the Gurjaras especially their Shrivamshra riders, they are built to counter the boring, repetitive archer metta of a lot of ''pros''.
Steppe tribes
Nomadic architecture set for the Nomad civs, Mongols get Yurt houses and steppe Nomad architecture. Tartars + Cumans get Yurts for dark age houses and Huns too get steppe Nomad architecture. The Mongol Yurts should have less HP but also be much cheaper.
With their Unique tech 'Nomads'' if their cheap , low HP Yurts goes down, then they need not create more. It will be perfect. Nomad tech should give you the opportunity of packing up your tc and rebuild it for free. (Moving ox cart)
Armenians should get the current Tatar extra Hill bonus damage for all their units in exchange for faster moving CA + only CA does 15% more hill bonus damage + Tatar, Mongol and Hun scouts have the ability to lame enemies hunt/livestock.(Scorched earth tactics) These civs should also get to train op to 5 hunting wolves in the Dark age (Cost 25 food)
Huns should also get steppe lancers (I can’t believe this was not the case from day one.)
Rus.
Gain a civ bonus or dock tech: Ice breakers - on winter maps ships movement speed +10%
Vikings Civ rework NB
Norse/Vikings
Pagan, early aggression, raiding using Infantry, cheap trash,Strong Agnon Skirms, transported in longboats.
Architecture: Norse architecture that resemble their beautiful Norse church wonder.
UU castle: Berserk (infantry) - Unique infantry unit that slowly heals itself. (Dane axe + round shield on back) Can repair Longboats
UU Dock: Longboat (warship) - Unique ship that fires multiple arrows (from castle age) as well as transport foot units (Infantry/skirms/vils/monks/kings only)
In feudal age Longboats can’t fire arrows.
Longboats transporting skirmishers gain added pierce armour and attack.
Feudal age longboats transporting skirmishers gains an attack.
UT Imp: Chieftains Longforts - Beserkers can be trained in docks.
UT castel: Berserkergang (Berserks regenerate faster)
Civ bonus1: Dane Geld:Skirmishers, Pikemen, Halberdiers cost -25%
Civ bonus2: Infantry and skirms +20% hit points starting in Feudal Age
Civ bonus3:Warships+fishing ships cost -15% Feudal Age, -15% Castle Age, -20% Imperial Age
Civ bonus4: When infantry destroys an eco building 100 of the connected resource gets looted and added to your stockpile.
Lumber camp = 100 Wood
Mill = 100 food
Dock = 100 Food
Mining Camp = 100 gold + 200 Stone
Market = 300 Gold
Monastery = 500 gold
TC = 500 gold
If allied to Byzantines, both civs gain access to: the technology of Varangian Guard from the Feudal age.
In Feudal age , Byzantine army (As well as Norse allies) gain access to a special unit in the Barracks called the Varangian Guard. - Expensive , slow moving with a limited build amount.
Since the Byzantines are a Defensive civ, the Varangian Guards have a high attack boost when in the vicinity of a TC or Castle but outside a certain radius from these buildings the VG lose the strong attack bonus and are just as strong as a normal Man at Arms/Long Sword/Champion.
(guards of the Emperor) To defend against early rushes , but since they are expensive,slow and limited, you will have to think strategically as to when and where to deploy/station them.
(Automatically upgrades with each age)
If allied to the Franks, Norse gain access to Throwing axemen in the Castle.
Team Bonus: Arson becomes available in the feudal age. (Civs whom did not have access to arson now do gain access to arson)
Barracks:
Champion
Up to long sword - Round shield + small war axe
2handed sword to Champion - Round Shield + sword
Halb - Round shield spear line
Stable:
Light cav
AR:
Elite Skirm - Angon Skirms (does slightly more damage to villagers)
archer
SW:
Siege ram
Siege onager
scorpion
Dock:
Fire galley
War galley
Heavy Demo
Transport ship
UU - Longboat (warship) - Unique ship that fires multiple arrows (from castle age) as well as transport foot units (Infantry/vils/monks/kings only)
In feudal age Longboats can’t fire arrows.
Longboats transporting skirmishers gain added pierce armour and attack.
Feudal age longboats transporting skirmishers gains an attack.
No shipwrite
Pagan Temple:
No Redemption
No atonement
No Theocracy
No Illumination
No Herrecy
Blacksmith:
No plate boarding armour
University:
No keep
No BBT
No Siege engineers
No fortified wall
Don’t gain access to Livestock penn unless allied to the Swedes.
No crop Rotation
Wonder: Borgund/Hedel/Hopperstad Stave Church
Swedes/Kalmar Union
Christian , late game focus, expensive units , using Hand cannoneers, Arbs, Knights + warhammer plated infantry to crush their enemies.
Architecture: Current ‘’Viking set’’.
Kalmar castle
Visby/Gotland Castle
Monnestary - Lund Cathedral
UU castle: Plated war hammer infantry (Heater shield + one handed war hammer)
Slightly stronger than a longsword (Regular) and Champion (Elite) but does bonus damage vs other Swedish units (To depict the numerous civil wars within the Kalmar union)
Weak vs Cav + gunpowder, average vs archers, strong vs siege + buildings + infantry , very strong vs other Swedish units except for cavalry.
UT Castel:Danish Reformation - Swordline + Knight line gain + 25HP
UT Imp: Vryborg bang - All guard towers become upgraded to BBT and when a BBT gets destroyed , it explodes and inflicts area damage around it. (To allied and enemy forces)
Sallet helmet - sword line + arbs gain +1 melee armour
Civ bonus1: Pete houses - Houses built on grass or snow terrain cost - 50% wood.
Civ bonus2:Torps - Houses built next to Berries and woodlines increases villager collection rates of these resources.
Civ bonus3:Burkals - Hunt generates the same amount of gold as they do food (Selling of furs)
Civ bonus 4:House of Vasa - if allied to Poland you gain access to Winged Hussaria
Team Bonus: Elk/Reindeer can be bred in the livestock penn wich provides more food (and more gold for the Swedes) in cold /winter maps
Barracks:
Kiteshield ,nasal helm swordsmen up to Long sword
Two handed swordmen - Plate armoured Heater shield swordmen
Spearmen - Kite Shield - Pikemen - Heater shield ,Halb - Plated halberdier no shield
Stable:
Cavalier wearing plate armour and Sallet helmet
Light cav
No husbandry
AR:
Arb
Handcannonner
Elite skirm
SW:
BBC
Onager
Ram
Dock:
Gallion
Fire ship
Demo ship
University:
No Keep
Wonder: Uppsala Cathedral
Historical battle: Battle of Brunkeberg 1471 AD.
Campaign in the Levant with the Norwegian Crusades under Sigurd the Crusader 1115 AD Siege of Sidon
Goths should loose the zombie loom bonus and get “can research technologies and create units at the same time”. This would keep their aggressive identity by letting them tech switch easily and give them a good eco (loom,wheelbarrow,handcart).
op
definitely shouldnt affect town centers as it would make goths the best civ by far.
Called it that Ornlu had Covid. (hope you get better soon)
Well considering I posted about it on Twitter, talked about it on my stream, and mentioned it in my discord.... I don't really think it was a secret 11
Hey Ornlu, what tier do you reckon the Bengalis would be at if the ratha could still do melee damage at range by switching forms at the right time?
So Ornlu, according to you, which civs are the best if imperial age research is not allowed? (i.e. castle age being the final age)
Spain civ rework NB
Kingdom of Aragon
Early Medieval Civ
Knight+monk civ
Crusader (Kite shield+Nasal helm + chainmail) sword and spear infantry,Knights,crossbows, monk, (Reconquista) focus.(Rams + Trebs + siege tower)
With a blend of Moorish + Christian European crusader unit skins.
Castelio de Lorca
Castelio de la Mota
UU castle : Unctioned Knight: Same stats as a cavalier/regular and Paladin/elite but it gains + 2 attack when in the vicinity of a Monk/Missionary.
UU Monastery: Missionary (Shared with Castile) Brilliant to use in tandem with Unctioned Knights, to heal them and provide an attack boost. (And to convert enemies)
UT1: Inquisition (Monks convert faster)
UT2:Men of Asturias/The Order of Calatrava - Knight line gain a slight cost increase but they + Unctioned Knight have an increase in HP as well as +1 melee armour.
Civ bonus1:Can create SW/siege tower in feudal age + siege towers are cheaper.
Civ bonus2: Builders work 30% faster.
Civ bonus3: Blacksmith upgrades don't cost gold.
Civ bonus4: Infantry + crossbows exiting a siege tower gain a +1 attack buff for 60 seconds.
Team Bonus: Trade units generate +25% gold.
Barracks:
Champion - Crusader skin : Nasal helm, Kite shield + sword
Halb - Crusader skin : Nasal helm, Kite shield + Spear
Stable
Paladin
Hussar (Berber allies skin)
AR
Crossbow (With Bracer)
CA
Elite skirm (Berber Allies skin)
SW
Siege Tower (From feudal age)
Siege ram
Mangonel
Monastery:
Monk
Missionary
Dock:
Galion
Fast Fire
Heavy demo
No cannon galleon
Full Blacksmith
University:
Lacks BBT
Lacks treadmill crane
Woner: Torre Del Oro
Kingdom of Castile.
Late Medieval civ
Naval,gunpowder,Pike civ
With a focus on Conquistadors, cannon galleons, gunboats, halbs and hand cannon. (Pike and shot) (BBC,BBT) 15th century Sword infantry (Plate armour) Exclusively European skins such as the skins in DE3 Spain.
Castelio de Bellver
Castelio de Peñafiel.
UU:Conquistador
UU dock: Gunboat - small single cannon/gun Boat. Somewhat expensive, but powerful boat good at blasting ships from a medium distance. Fire rate and damage between A galleon and cannon galleon , Brilliant for targeting demolition ships , only slightly stronger than galleon anti building damage.
Less HP than a galleon but also slightly faster.
UU Monastery: Missionary (Shared with Aragon)
Castle age Barracks UU Rodelero: Fast-moving sword and buckler infantry Good for countering gunpowder units + pike men + siege + monks. Weak vs Cav, archers,Skirmishers, defensive buildings, sword line.
UT1:Spanish Treasure fleets - Gold brought back from the new world help to pay for new Gallions: Gallions gold cost removed.
UT2: Tercios (Pike and shot): Pikemen in the vicinity of hand cannoneers gain + 2 attack
Civ bonus 1:Age up to Castle age is cheaper.
Civ bonus 2: Gunpowder units fire 18% faster.
Civ bonus3:Cannon Galleons benefit from Ballistics (fire faster, more accurately).
Civ bonus 4:Gain access to Rodelero,Gunboat and Garrochistas
Civ bonus 5: BBT are built faster.
Team Bonus:Grants Cannon galleon to allies whom do not have it.
(Mezzo canoe allies) And grants faster moving cannon galleons to allies whom do have access to them.
Barracks:
Champion Caudillo
Halb - Good against cavalry and buildings. (slight Extra building damage)
Castle age UU Rodelero: Fast-moving sword and buckler rapier infantry Good for countering gunpowder units. Upgrades to Espadachins
Rodelero deal less damage against infantry and buildings compared to the champion but its high speed and resistance to gunpowder makes them good vs siege and gunpowder , weak vs cavalry,archers, average vs infantry similar to long swordsmen and when upgraded to Espadachins they are similar to two handed swordsmen. Weak anti building damage compared to the champion even with arson.
Agile swordsmen with a buckler could better evade the deadly iron of densely packed pikes and could take formations apart from the inside. Thus they are strong vs spear line but are quite weak against skirms.
Stable
Knight - Garrochistas Spanish lancer (Similar to Cavalier) Very weak to conversions. Slightly stronger vs spear line than a cavalier but much weaker to camel units than a cavalier. .
Light cav
AR
Hand cannoneer
Crossbow men (Lacks bracer)
Elite skirm (Messo allies skin)
SW
BBC
ram
mangonel
Monastery:
Monk
Missionary
Dock:
UU: Gunboat - small single cannon/gun Boat. Somewhat expensive, but powerful boat good at blasting ships from a medium distance. Fire rate and damage between A galleon and cannon galleon , Brilliant for targeting demolition ships , only slightly stronger than galleon anti building damage.
Lacks heavy demo
Lacks Fast fire ship
Blacksmith
Lacks bracer
Lacks plate boarding armour
University:
Lacks Heated Shot
Lacks Siege Engineers
No Sappers
Wonder:Alcázar de Segovia
Or
Cathedral of Seville
Hey Ornlu, I think free skirm armor on Koreans meaning you can delay a blacksmith on its own is better than anything Bohemians get in feudal. I think Koreans should be B, and Bohemians should be C.
I'm not very good at the game. However, I never ever lose as Vietnamese, they're the best civ for me, so easy to use and actually have decent cavalry and tanky chonkers - S tier for sure!
Tierlist POG
Burmese are my favorite Civ… not everyone dislikes them!
Great job
I feel Vikings need a boost like halbs. They have possibly the best eco bonus in the game and they barely make it to A- (they are B to me).
french must be S Tier sadly, they still have a pretty high winrate (on any elo)
And gurjara is the most broken civ atm, so A is the wrong call for them :D
Arena tier list next!
Can you do a post imperial with high resources tier list?
Interesting how you diverge from Hera. Mostly agreement but he puts some civs into D, and aztecs and Burgundians swap. Poles go to high A tier.
Didnt know the evil C got you, get well soon
To balance Battle elephants I think we should think about introducing greater than one pop requirements for units. Back in the day we played with 50 pop or 75 pop in aoe1 or aok respectively due to technical limitations. With so little pop space for military it doesnt make sense to have a unit take more than one spot cause then you have basically nothing on the field. That is where the tradition of all units having one pop requirement comes from.
But I feel 22 years later, the freedom to choose pop as an individual quantity to tune balance is missing.
We cant just make elephants in castle age cheaper to get going and thus be used in 1v1 because then in tgs you just face close over 60 of them probably. This would change if there is a maximum number of elephants you can make which would be described by them costing 2 or 1.5 pop. Then its impossible to have more than 40 for sure.
At the moment, the unit cost is used as an indirect pop requirement as any ress on the cost comes with a villager that needs to work for it.
I want to change that for a direct system. So you can lower cost overall to make them more present in castle age when pop limit isnt that hard of a hinderance just need enough houses. But then in late game when you close to pop limit you cant do much more which keeps a big elephant snowball at bay.
Still eles will be slow and dir to trash, doesn't fix whats wrong with them just make them even harder to work as u can't have numbers advantage
@@yoyodude-aoe2726 they dont die to trash once got going
@@robchang4533 what's easier to get going?
Trash or eles?
One option to fix them, there are dozens of others to explore though.
In tgs lategame they are strong but that's also because trash units and monks are not really a thing lategame teamgames. The elephant could be buffed against it's counters while not against other stuff so in teamgames they stay about the same but are easier to use in 1v1. The elite upgrades could also be made much cheaper.
Is it even possible for a civ without strong eco boni to be good in this game? 🤔
Haven't watch the video. Prediction on the "C: tier - Bengalis, Dravidians, Malay, Portuguese and Goths.
YES! I love Genitours ! ☺
''Britons arn't that mobile'' , I just watched a game where Vinch crushed an Ethiopian boring archer meta army with Briton Knights. This man is just squawking repetitive ,boring 2Dimentional meta.
Solid list.
I'd drop aztecs, sicilians and tatars. All lack the economy to be in the tier they are imo. Aztecs also just got a terrible matchup in hindustani now, their UU is just flat out better than your eagle and not much you can do against it (you go jaguar warrior, they roll you with HC).
Franks, Berbers and Ethiopians deserve higher imo. Perhaps im just valueing cavalry spam with good eco bonuses too much though.
So how come Bengalis can't be played as worse Vikings? The Bengali's eco bonus is definitely not quite as good, but it's still pretty strong, and both of their tech trees are terrible, so how come the Bengalis are so much worse?
Vikings eco bonus kicks in sooner, plus they have knights. Having knights doesn't mean you go all in, but having the possibility of going archers, then add a stable and train 2-3 knights just to kill skirms or mangonels, without them dying to 2-3 pikes like light cavalry do.
They can be played as a worse Vikings... But that still lands them in C-tier 111. Bengalis are generally best-suited to going for Rathas + trash in my experience (for 1v1 Arabia. On closed maps and in TGs you can bring out the elephants!)
How did Ornlu pull that off in under an hour.
I'm honestly not sure 11
I think Gujers are just too OP and Bengalis are just too weak for Arabia. I think some nerfs and buffs are coming.
timestamps plox
What if Stirrups was a civ bonus of faster attacking cavalry (either from feudal or castle) and building Krepost is unlocked through a civ tech?
I think Bulgarians are generally okay balance-wise right now
@@OrnLu_AoE i guess... I just always found it weird that cavalry attack speed bonus was the only attack speed bonus to be unlock through a tech, maybe because it would be harder to balance for cavalry since they have speed going for them
They have cheaper blacksmith aswell
Imo mongols > magyars in late game ... I dont see Magyars ever killing Magudai + SO
Having unlimited gold, you're right. But Magyar Hussar >> Mongol Hussar and the lack of the last wood and mill upgrades make a little bit of a difference. However I get the point, mass Mangudais are just unstoppable
Hey Ornlu, I don't think Bengalis are bottom tier. I'd prefer them over Portugese, Bohemians and Turks for example, just use them like a poor man's Vikings (their eco bonus is really good, about 2/3 as good as Vikings) and ignore all of the dogshit non-siege elephant units and you have yourself a mid tier civ. While their eco is worse than that of Vikings, they get bloodlines and plate barding, and their eco isn't that much worse.
Spanish is S tier. Dont you see all the pros winning with Spanish these days. Your still stuck in the past bro
Dravidians and Bengalis need serious buff!
I think that C tier is D tier