I remember my Viking prof in college telling us that these Pagans knew that if you get baptized, you get a bath and a free shirt, so they would get baptized every year...yey! New shirt!
One (of the many) problems I had with the show "Vikings" was this absurd idea that the Norse did not know about England. Thank you for throwing that notion into the bin * side note: I really did enjoy the show, as a fantasy show, it was ok, as "historical drama" if fails miserably, but I like fantasy so I watched it
Nice to see you spreading a more nuanced view than the idea that it was all christian v pagan stuff. Life is rarely simple, and most things only seem binary if you refuse to look closely.
"old Norse paganism didn't have much skin in the hatred game" and "they didn't have time to hate people" were Extremely emotion provoking phrases my man, thank you for them
My time has come! So, the whole religious studies thing has roots in missionary; the Church realised they needed to explain things differently to each populations, so they learnt the language and religions and went to proselytise. That theory about equating norse paganism and christianity is absolutely valid. I´d like to point out a variation to that theory - some of those figures on the crosses might be Norse Gods disguised as Christian saints. This happened in Central and South America, where the missionaries did the whole proselytising schtick, but people probably just changed names or design of their deities and carried on with symbolism and rituals. For example, St Mary of Guadalupe (Mexico) is just Christianised goddess Tonantzin (or Coatlicue), a motherly goddess of fertility, death and snakes, who birthed Huitzilopochtli, a very prominent god of war and sun, AS A VIRGIN! Her statuette was in so many homes that Spaniards decided to equate her to Virgin Mary, but because the people are very flexible and inclusive, their gods just got little bit more European and modern, so the task failed successfully. So, what Im trying to say is, that I wouldn´t be surprised if we encountered in historical Christian texts or in real life some variation of a pagan ritual or a local saint, who´s symbols, story or influence has suspiciously pagan roots.
A fantastic example of this is the Irish Saint Brigid, who is just the Christianized version of the Irish goddess of home & hearth, craft, & fertility Brigid. She's also the daughter of An Mór Ríoghan (the Morrigan), so she doesn't feck around when push comes to shove lol
it's not associated with a specific god anymore but the Scandinavian midsummer ritual is still overtly pagan despite the church trying to claim it for John the baptist and i have a little giggle about it every year stick a green dick in the ground and ask for fertility for the year to come! June 24th, save the date
Something similar happend in East Asia. The female version of the bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara, 觀音 Guānyīn in Chinese Mandarin and 観音 Kannon in Japanese, is very popular there. Her being the bodhisattva of compassion and often depicted holding a child, 16th century Jesuite missionaries used her to explain Saint Mary, mother of Jesus, so you got this mix of Buddhisme and Christianity living side by side. It survied until quite resently in Japan because the people there lost contact with the missionaries when Christianity got banned in 1612. During the ban they would use modified statues of Kannon in their houses as a cover when the authorities where looking for Japanese that where influnced by outsiders.
Another way to look at it is: people have always been people. All the room for both evil and good and complicated motives that people have today were just as present in every other period and place in history.
That’s so sweet, and I’m very pleased it helps provide some context :)
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I have the same problem. The way they taught it in school gives the impression that historical events happened in a vacuum, like each area was having their own thing and completely unaware of everything/everyone else. This way, even when Jimmy goes back & forth, it really gives context and helps you seeing them as things that happened at the same time, rather than things happening in alternate universes or something.
@ I had a similar experience, and it took someone pointing out that Muslim raids on Europe were occurring around the same period as the Viking raids to wake me up to the interconnected nature of history.
And I imagine, just like we love to hear the latest gossip about celebrities, that people at that time would love to hear tales about something happening far away or interesting styles or useful agricultural or trade tips.
So, this is entirely different but both part one and two made me think of this. I'm from Montana in the USA. There are nuances for sure, but it is beyond common to see a mixture of both Christian and Native practices and symbolism together here. Often mixed together on the very body of a person. Whether or not you are of non native heritage or native heritage, it's very likely you have participated in some admixture of both in spiritual and cultural contexts. People speak more now on cultural appropriation which is good, but honestly I think culture is developed in the interaction of different peoples and practices. The USA has a profoundly fraught relationship with the ways in which native peoples influenced the development of our country in the past and now. (Huge understatement there.) It was just really nice to wonder at the possibility of past peoples living in a very similar context as my own people today. Anyway, I loved the video. It's nice to see how traditions we view as separate and only in conflict with one another were in fact were alive, living and mixing in the same space.
So much of what is now Christianity is layered "cultural appropriation" or mingling over the centuries from various groups in Europe and surrounds. Not all of it is necessarily cynical adoption to aid conversion either. it's more likely a merger with pre-existing traditions that slowly acquired a Christian flavour. Or an excuse for the local Christians to still go to the local big party. The big obvious ones being Christmas and Easter, but also a big chunk of saints' days are pretty clearly thin veils over pagan festivals.
@@dogmaticpyrrhonist543 I guess what surprised me was that I had been thinking of the pagan culture as a "dead" culture, even though I was well aware of rune stones with both Christian and Pagan elements. Which was significant for me because I come from an area in which we actively try to dismantle the idea that Native culture isn't anything but alive, real, and developing. It's also fun to imagine people having the same conversations people have here except about Loki and Jesus. It's humanizing to think of historical people managing in very similar ways to us now.
This is the type of content that should be recommended first in the algorithm. Thank you Jimmy. May your tea be ever hot and endless and your shoes waterproof.
My Step-dad would always tell the missionaries "Well, I'm a heathen, and she's a Christian ". I think I probably grew up in a very traditional family structure in the medieval times.
Great work Jimmy! For those of us who are not historians it is easy to start oversimplifying. Many of us are too lazy too make a little autonomous research and reading... and maybe believe that some tv shows are historically correct. The topic of Christianity vs Viking paganism is complex, as it usually is when there is an encounter of two cultures and religions, and I am grateful you made two videos to discuss it.
Even as a historian you can get influenced by false media. Especially if you don't specialize in something. Certain things become so prevelent, often because in some way they just "fit", they make sense or explain something we don't really understand. It's easy to get lazy & forget there's no or counter evidence. Fictional narratives have become a part of our current cultural belief system through repetition. We have to remember that it's part of today's thought, not the time period in question. I minored in Scandinavian studies, focusing on Viking burial practices but I majored in medieval European history focusing on the plantagenet-Tudor dynasties. It's stunning how much is out there about the Tudors that people are dead set on that is absolutely false. A handful of successful historical fiction writers have shaped what people think, including historians who may not specialize in the field. The more popular an era or culture is, "Vikings", "Tudors" ect..., the more widespread fiction is produced & the more confused the general public. I really enjoyed the television series "Vikings" & "Tudors" but a drinking game based on false info would lead to hospitalization. When ideas get embedded, they can creep into the beliefs of people who have reason to know better, and you get more unfounded resistance from people who have not done any research but hold onto these ideas like they are religious doctrine. I wish after every episode of "Vikings" aired, they'd had a little half hour show with Jimmy correcting what was wrong & pointing out what was purely fictional. Fiction is great, but when it gets confused with fact it erodes our actual understanding of the period. I'm so happy we have people like Jimmy. I just wish every wannabe Viking or fan watched him.
I learned something cool and new today! That we have a punny name for an ancient king fossilized into the modern day makes me so so happy. Just giddy! (Linguist nerd, I come by it honestly.) Just like how quirks of older versions of English are preserved in children’s nursery rhymes! (That’s a particular interest of mine.) It’s like excavating a historical site, but instead of dirt, you’re sifting through language! Love it!! :D
9th century German texts hold some awesome insights into Pagan/Christian coexistence. Famously the Merseburg charms were pagan magical incantations referencing several gods like Wodan and Friia, but written down on a flyleaf in a Christian liturgical Text by a Christian cleric. And the Wessobrunn Prayer is an all around Christian text, but the syllable -ga- is written with a G-rune as a shorthand - mostly in the form of the participle prefix (ge- in Old English and y- in Middle English), but even inside the word "forgapi" (i.e. '(for)gave').
Thank you for the videos Jimmy. Absolutely fascinating. People forget that these "huge armies" were only a small percentage of a population. Most just wanted to live normal lives farming, smithing, weaving etc. Warp weighted looms seem to take forever to set up and the upward weaving motions and beating the yarn into the shed is painful on the arms (well it was on mine) hmmmm mead and D and D gaming. That could be interestingly messy. Good luck and have fun.
I was drinking a G&T this time for the nuance drinking game. Decided to become a patreon. Not just the gin doing the thinking, I really enjoy your content.
YO! That D&D game is going to be awesome!! I love to listen to you while I play CK:3. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us! ps. your beard is looking amazing, my dude!
One thing I read was that a lot of early Christian missionaries would tell pagans that their gods weren't real gods, they were just ancestral kings and heroes who had come to be worshipped as gods in error. This allowed converts a bit of freedom to carry on holding the traditional deities in positions of esteem and pass down their myths, so long as they were practicing Christians. Loads of early Medieval English genealogies claim that nobles were descended from Woden and Thor, and it's my understanding that this was why- they weren't actually claiming to be demigods.
Always love me a nuanced discussion on this topic, especially with how many bad actors try to spin the interactions between Old Norse pagans and Christians as being a culture war. Like, fuck the Church for its colonial/proto-colonial tendencies, but let's not forget that they usually didn't do it directly: they acted through the nobility and monarchs they converted (St Olaf drowning volvas anyone?). So, if anything, the narrative should be more "fuck the nobles and the Church."
And it's also important to remember that we only know so much about Norse culture because of Christian historians. I don't think most would prefer that the Christians didn't record anything about Norse and Viking history, mythology, language, art and culture. I highly recommend Anders Winroth's The Conversion of Scandinavia: Vikings, Merchants, and Missionaries in the Remaking of Northern Europe, if you haven't read it.
@@mathiasgreyjoy1611 Sad that we don't get any written first hand accounts from within the culture itself, aside from the Sagas which were written later, but we have to take what we can get and try and interpret it in a way that would make sense to them.
@@mathiasgreyjoy1611 Sure thing, but let's be careful and not sanctity Christians either. Let's not forget what they have preserved is nothing but a fragment of something that was very bigger and lively, something that would've survived and evolved freely if it weren't for their forceful conversion. I get that the majority of Christians might have tolerated heathendom, but the process of cultural domination is a long one and it starts with assimilation. Syncretism might be a very sincere religious experience, it can also be very cynical. And the church used it as a tool to lure people into this new monolithic religion. What I want to say is that we shouldn't have to owe them thanks for doing the bare minimum, and then proceed to commit various cultural ethnocides.
@@lenabreijer1311 My grandmother survived the "Indian School", set up by "Christians" to "kill the Indian to save the man". Her brother didn't and the last "Indian School" in the US wasn't closed until 1994
Religious zealots from any nation were horrible people eh . I'll continue happily and peacefully wearing my gloriously ambiguous Wolf Cross then. Thanks for a nicely nuanced explanation.
Also, love the pen in the beard. We said, "nice" at the same time. And as a spinner/weaver, yes, I can at least guess at how long it takes to weave a tunic. It ain't pretty.
That whole part about Æthelred the Unred is why I actually like what Ken Follett did in The Evening And The Morning, he didn’t use Æthelred the Unready, as that was wrong, neither did he use Æthelred the Unred, as (nearly) no one would get it, he used Æthelred the Misled; though it didn’t exist at the time, it rimes and is not necessarily wrong, also it matches what “Unred” meant!
Parts 1 and 2 were both extremely well done. Having determined, thanks to you, the definition of syncretism, I found the nuances you suggested far more likely than otherwise might have been apparent to me. You're a mensch! And easy on the eyes.
Always lovely to see another Welsh Viking video--I hope you are doing well, Jimmy! On the commanders trying to stop their own forces from massacring innocents... "Sometimes people are just horrible" Thank you for making a point of saying that, especially given current political climate...everywhere. (CW: people being horrible) Today is the 55th anniversary of the massacre of My Lai in Vietnam, where no only where the U.S. troops literally herding unarmed Vietnamese into ditches to shoot them point blank, the commanding officers knew and approved, and it took a lowly Warrant Officer piloting a helicopter, and putting himself and his two crew members between U.S. armed forces and innocent people, and then going to command to yell about it, to stop it. It then took decades of him fighting for the massacre to even acknowledge the role of the U.S. army and command on that massacre. (How many others we don't know about, how many others were not stopped by anyone present?) As for the modern British...well. Badajoz under Wellington, just to name one. And let us not forget Russian forces today in Ukraine, or Israel on Palestine, or or or or. /rant
You had me at "Jimmy plays D&D!" YAYYYY!! As a long standing TTRPGer I'm super excited and I hope some of it at least (YES I will watch all 24 hours, I watch Critical Role, that's nothing!) will wind up on the TH-cams for our enjoyment and edification. And what an excellent cause!!
I'm loving this topic. Thanks for your accessible discussion of what can be confusing to us non PHDs. 😂
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With so many nuance shots, I'm already drunk and it's not yet St Patrick's xD Very interesting video. Since you're living in York now, would you consider talking more about the Viking and Dane history of York/Yorkshire? Hope you have a great day!!!
Yay I've been waiting for this! We are developing some crazy kind of crush on the Welsh Viking. You've got to be the most clever highly intelligent and NUANCED contfempory creators on the toober. liked and thanked ahead of time now for the content yay thnx
Wonderful video! Very interesting to hear you speak of Repton, which is just up the road from me; apparently this was the first place in England to be Christianised. Would love to hear you shed some more light on how this happened, and also some enlightenment on the mass "Viking" grave found there.
Great video. Always nice to see someone trying to be objective. Its why i love Fadlans recordings along the Volga. Cheers Jimmy! Also converting was made more or less mandetory due to restrictions in trade with pagans from christians, snd that is loss of income and connections. I can't imagine braving the sea just to be rejected when comming ashore and wanting to sell my wares or even trade them for something i wanted or needed for living. Would suck big time. But yes the sword was used for conversion, but convinience too. Life just got simpler when accepting another diety.
Nice, I haven't seen that stone diptych (term?) before, but I love the idea of equivalency getting the point across. "Okay, so on the one side is Odin, with his raven, stabbing Fenrir with a spear (crowd goes wild). On the other side, there's a Christian priest, with his bible and cross, stabbing a snake. (crowd falls silent in thought). "Holy guy, with accoutrement, stabbing the evil. Got it?" (crowd murmurs in appreciation "oh nice parallels - I think making the Christian priest like Odin is a big assumption - sure, granted, can't imagine their Pope going out and stabbing the snake - In those robes? Have you heard about those? - Right?! - But still, the art really sells the idea - Without a doubt, that stone mason deserves a pint"). Twirling of mustache was a nice touch.
One of the mediaeval characters I love is a preist called Helmold of Bosau (12th century), who wrote about the complicated relationship between his own bishop, Vicelin, the local Wends (Slavs) who were not Christian, and the German princes and kings who officially backed Christianity. Vicelin evidently wanted to befriend and convert the Slavs, but the secular Germans equally evidently wanted to kill all the Slavic rulers and occupy the Slavic lands themselves. This was in and around Lubeck; so it's obvious who won in the short term. But at least Helmold was able to record his view of the matter.
Always impressed by how entertaining and educational you make your videos. Congrats on the continuing sponsor and I'm sooo excited for the DnD charity event! I hope you're able to relax and have a great time with it. One of these days I'll get over there to visit and have some of that mead!
Dear Jimmy, As I found myself singing to my dogs while making their dinner, I pondered the tune. It felt familiar, but I couldn't remember where from... until I watched this! 🤦♀️ ♫Bailey dog is a very silly dog, Lily dog is a very silly dog...♫ Your plan to infect the world with Welsh culture is succeeding, well done!
very nice meeting you at ARM today, got some to the Elderflower Mead from the lads at Nidhoggr. I got way too over excited talking and completely forgot to ask you if you knew about the Serpent Sword project.
I'm late to the video because something came up in the middle of my first watching... But your description of people sometimes just being horrible reminded me of the hussites - a great example of a very religiously-charged movement from the late Middle Ages - and how their famous battle song that translates roughly to "You Who Are God's Warriors" is actually basically a soldier's manual/pre-battle speech with some religious imagery thrown in, and includes lines reminding people not to focus on the loot.
Individuals almost certainly didnt give a toss what you were, institutions on the other hand certainly did. Olaf Trygvason for example, forcing his subjects to convert under pain of death, and the Catholic church in general was not at all tolerent of anything other than their way (as you said in part 1). So yes nuanced for many, but black and white for many in power.
I'd love to see Jimmy doing a tale of the Isle of Man from Mannanan-mac-Lir through Bugganes and Phymoderees to Orry the Dane and the Battle of Sky Hill.
I'm normally an early modernist but it's great to learn more about different periods. As a witchcraft scholar, I come across some... interesting... opinions on paganism in history.
Hi Jimmy, Obviously I don’t really know how you are feeling but I think you seem to be doing a lot better and I think that is lovely. Please don’t feel you ever have to put up a front though. Your sign off as well as being in Welsh which delights me as a fellow Cymry., also delighted me with your instructions to be nice. I love it that that seems to matter to you. These were really interesting videos, with all their nuance 😂, thank you x
@@TheWelshViking good! I enjoy your videos , but not to the extent that I want you to make yourself I’ll if you miss a few. Take care of yourself and be nice to yourself too. ❤️
Funnily enough I had the same question asked at an event in St. Tudy when I was chatting about the Hogback/Coped Stone there. My best answer was 'hundreds of man hours' which I think is probably accurate? There's a video on youtube of a chap remaking the Coneblin (sp) Cross using historic methods and I think it took him several years to finish albeit that is extremely complex work.
The artwork featuring both Christian and Norse pagan imagery kind of reminds me of Beowulf, which, if memory serves, does something similar in text (I do recall a mention of Grendel being descended from Cain).
Part two is here! I think this has an interesting comparison also to historical events happening in parallel in other parts of the world, or happening slightly after - I wonder if some of the "they hated each other!!!" rhetoric doesn't come in part from events like the Crusades, even though it overlaps minimally with the ~Viking period, because medieval wars [of religion]... even though those were wildly differently motivated. Thank you for the video! Always good to have some ✨nuance✨ in your history
am i the only one that started drinking at every mention of "nuance"? or got slightly giddy with excitement seeing you stick a pencil through your beard? thanks for these great and informative videos that i watch with great interest even though my comments may suggest otherwise... hope you have a great evening/day!
Great concluding episode. Loved this. Btw, I always understood unraed to mean no counsel, but was unclear if that meant no one was advising him or that he wasn't taking advice from others (and my lecturers didn't seem sure either). Either way, he didn't do too well.
Just received some Raspberry Lemon mead from Nidhoggr a couple of weeks ago, which I ordered after another of your videos - it is amazing and is the official special treat in my household. I'm in the US and it's really expensive after shipping, but totally worth it. My first shipment got lost in the mail, but they followed up and sent me a new one, worth the (2 month?) wait!
Great, very informative video yet again jimmy, I constantly steer people your way when asked about viking stuff as you are much better at explaining things than I'll ever be. The pen in beard did give me a good chuckle
Your beard is beautiful! I see some red in it...:D My son has your coloring with a bright copper beard. And Norse Gaels rock! I love how all these people end up going native, the Norse twice, once with the Vikings, and again with the Normans. Jimmy, you seem like you're doing better. I hope you get some sunshine now that the year has turned. It's so important to fill in the gaps between Roman Britain and the Norman Conquest. Have you seen videos on the legend of Robin Hood? Fascinating? But I love this era with all the stories of Norse, Danes, Gaels, and the kingdoms. It would be fun to have you do some history of Wales. I was watching some history and it's amazing to understand more about the Mabinogion. I'm happy to hear the variation in the pronunciation. Can you do a video on the famous marriage between Reynold and the princess of Donegal that made him King of the Islands? Great video!
I'm interested in Wales too as they seem to have kept so separate for so long. Also interested in hearing about Cornwall as that's where I live now and it seems to have kept been semi-isolated and independent, while still being very connected to the world via the sea.
Wonderful Lecture and presentation we so enjoy from History Jimmy. Thanks. Keep the topics coming. Everything you discuss is fascinating. You could probably read a phone book and make it interesting!
The Pagan/Christian monuments remind me a lot of "The Journey To The West" a famous Chinese story where 3 Taoist immortals accompany a Buddhist priest on a pilgrimage to India. Taking the earlier pre-Buddhist mythological figures to "explain" Buddhism. (interestingly, in the version on the telly in the 1970s at least, they're going to Gandhara - The Greek/Zorostarian/Vedic/Buddhist centre in western Pakistan - you don't get no more syncretic than that!)
Great explanation and thank you for balance in this story - having a name that has it's roots in the 'vikings' settling in England (from gunnhildr) I have always got a bit peed off myself that every time vikings were explained they were the bad guys. Apologies for last videos comments, i think i missed the last few minutes for some reason, probably getting some mead. Great information.
Syncretism is a seriously powerful thing that many people overlook when trying to separate, categorize and codify the believes and influences of ancient and modern religions. Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism are for most part in your average mind, forgotten religions but they were major world religions that had a huge influence on the development of major world religions such as modern Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Zoroastrianism especially, there are many, many Zoroastrian teachings that have become mainstream and extremely popular in Christianity, (Catholic and Protestant) and Orthodox Judaism that have absolutely ZERO true basis in the OT or NT but are seen as central and foundational beliefs in those religions even though they are completely absent from the actual sacred text understood in their original language, cultural and historic contexts. Alot of it in Christianity at least can be blamed on Augustine of Hippo, who was panned by actual learned biblical scholars of his time, but his ideas gain traction due to appealing to minds heavily influenced by Neoplatonism, which was also a major influence on the development of modern christian thought and itself heavily influenced by eastern ideas from religions like Zoroastrianism and further eastern Indian religions. Im sure the same thing happened with the Christians and the Norse. They coexisted for over half a millenia, that is ALOT of time for exchange of ideas and syncretism to occur by the time the poetic eddas are written.
I don't know about a warp weighted loom but I saw a video from a museum with a floor loom from the 1700's. The presenter said a good weaver could produce about a foot an hour. Add to that the time it takes to spin enough thread to warp the loom and at least an equal amount for the weft and your pretty much occupied for the year.
I remember my Viking prof in college telling us that these Pagans knew that if you get baptized, you get a bath and a free shirt, so they would get baptized every year...yey! New shirt!
Whether you needed the bath or not…..
I would also like to have a Viking as a professor.
Hi elwy, good to see you here! Love your work!
@@EchoCharlie1361"upvote for this"
One (of the many) problems I had with the show "Vikings" was this absurd idea that the Norse did not know about England.
Thank you for throwing that notion into the bin
* side note: I really did enjoy the show, as a fantasy show, it was ok, as "historical drama" if fails miserably, but I like fantasy so I watched it
Nice to see you spreading a more nuanced view than the idea that it was all christian v pagan stuff. Life is rarely simple, and most things only seem binary if you refuse to look closely.
Nuance! Take a shot!
@@sarahmwalsh 🥃
"old Norse paganism didn't have much skin in the hatred game" and "they didn't have time to hate people" were Extremely emotion provoking phrases my man, thank you for them
My time has come! So, the whole religious studies thing has roots in missionary; the Church realised they needed to explain things differently to each populations, so they learnt the language and religions and went to proselytise. That theory about equating norse paganism and christianity is absolutely valid.
I´d like to point out a variation to that theory - some of those figures on the crosses might be Norse Gods disguised as Christian saints. This happened in Central and South America, where the missionaries did the whole proselytising schtick, but people probably just changed names or design of their deities and carried on with symbolism and rituals.
For example, St Mary of Guadalupe (Mexico) is just Christianised goddess Tonantzin (or Coatlicue), a motherly goddess of fertility, death and snakes, who birthed Huitzilopochtli, a very prominent god of war and sun, AS A VIRGIN! Her statuette was in so many homes that Spaniards decided to equate her to Virgin Mary, but because the people are very flexible and inclusive, their gods just got little bit more European and modern, so the task failed successfully.
So, what Im trying to say is, that I wouldn´t be surprised if we encountered in historical Christian texts or in real life some variation of a pagan ritual or a local saint, who´s symbols, story or influence has suspiciously pagan roots.
A fantastic example of this is the Irish Saint Brigid, who is just the Christianized version of the Irish goddess of home & hearth, craft, & fertility Brigid. She's also the daughter of An Mór Ríoghan (the Morrigan), so she doesn't feck around when push comes to shove lol
it's not associated with a specific god anymore but the Scandinavian midsummer ritual is still overtly pagan despite the church trying to claim it for John the baptist and i have a little giggle about it every year
stick a green dick in the ground and ask for fertility for the year to come! June 24th, save the date
Something similar happend in East Asia. The female version of the bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara, 觀音 Guānyīn in Chinese Mandarin and 観音 Kannon in Japanese, is very popular there. Her being the bodhisattva of compassion and often depicted holding a child, 16th century Jesuite missionaries used her to explain Saint Mary, mother of Jesus, so you got this mix of Buddhisme and Christianity living side by side. It survied until quite resently in Japan because the people there lost contact with the missionaries when Christianity got banned in 1612. During the ban they would use modified statues of Kannon in their houses as a cover when the authorities where looking for Japanese that where influnced by outsiders.
The "Norse god as Christian saint" hypothesis makes more than sense! It's definitely not something rare in areas like Italy, as well ^^
@@conanmcdonagh2619 absolutely, Brigid is prime example
"Sometimes people are just horrible." Yes, unfortunately they are.
Another way to look at it is: people have always been people. All the room for both evil and good and complicated motives that people have today were just as present in every other period and place in history.
Yes! A part two! It’s really helped me put European history in line. I hear or read things but it’s out of context. Thanks for the overview
That’s so sweet, and I’m very pleased it helps provide some context :)
I have the same problem. The way they taught it in school gives the impression that historical events happened in a vacuum, like each area was having their own thing and completely unaware of everything/everyone else. This way, even when Jimmy goes back & forth, it really gives context and helps you seeing them as things that happened at the same time, rather than things happening in alternate universes or something.
@
I had a similar experience, and it took someone pointing out that Muslim raids on Europe were occurring around the same period as the Viking raids to wake me up to the interconnected nature of history.
I appreciate that you talk about how everyone knew what was going on in other countries. Yes news traveled slowly, but it still got there eventually
And I imagine, just like we love to hear the latest gossip about celebrities, that people at that time would love to hear tales about something happening far away or interesting styles or useful agricultural or trade tips.
So, this is entirely different but both part one and two made me think of this. I'm from Montana in the USA. There are nuances for sure, but it is beyond common to see a mixture of both Christian and Native practices and symbolism together here. Often mixed together on the very body of a person. Whether or not you are of non native heritage or native heritage, it's very likely you have participated in some admixture of both in spiritual and cultural contexts. People speak more now on cultural appropriation which is good, but honestly I think culture is developed in the interaction of different peoples and practices. The USA has a profoundly fraught relationship with the ways in which native peoples influenced the development of our country in the past and now. (Huge understatement there.) It was just really nice to wonder at the possibility of past peoples living in a very similar context as my own people today.
Anyway, I loved the video. It's nice to see how traditions we view as separate and only in conflict with one another were in fact were alive, living and mixing in the same space.
So much of what is now Christianity is layered "cultural appropriation" or mingling over the centuries from various groups in Europe and surrounds. Not all of it is necessarily cynical adoption to aid conversion either. it's more likely a merger with pre-existing traditions that slowly acquired a Christian flavour. Or an excuse for the local Christians to still go to the local big party. The big obvious ones being Christmas and Easter, but also a big chunk of saints' days are pretty clearly thin veils over pagan festivals.
@@dogmaticpyrrhonist543 I guess what surprised me was that I had been thinking of the pagan culture as a "dead" culture, even though I was well aware of rune stones with both Christian and Pagan elements. Which was significant for me because I come from an area in which we actively try to dismantle the idea that Native culture isn't anything but alive, real, and developing. It's also fun to imagine people having the same conversations people have here except about Loki and Jesus. It's humanizing to think of historical people managing in very similar ways to us now.
This is a really neat example of religious syncretism, thanks for sharing!
Brilliant, thank you. I love how you humanize history; people just wanted to farm and weave cloth, spot on. Take care, be well
I'm making a sacrifice to the algorithm gods and I want to let you know how lovely I think your videos are.
This is the type of content that should be recommended first in the algorithm. Thank you Jimmy. May your tea be ever hot and endless and your shoes waterproof.
My Step-dad would always tell the missionaries "Well, I'm a heathen, and she's a Christian ". I think I probably grew up in a very traditional family structure in the medieval times.
Great work Jimmy! For those of us who are not historians it is easy to start oversimplifying. Many of us are too lazy too make a little autonomous research and reading... and maybe believe that some tv shows are historically correct. The topic of Christianity vs Viking paganism is complex, as it usually is when there is an encounter of two cultures and religions, and I am grateful you made two videos to discuss it.
Even as a historian you can get influenced by false media. Especially if you don't specialize in something.
Certain things become so prevelent, often because in some way they just "fit", they make sense or explain something we don't really understand. It's easy to get lazy & forget there's no or counter evidence.
Fictional narratives have become a part of our current cultural belief system through repetition. We have to remember that it's part of today's thought, not the time period in question.
I minored in Scandinavian studies, focusing on Viking burial practices but I majored in medieval European history focusing on the plantagenet-Tudor dynasties.
It's stunning how much is out there about the Tudors that people are dead set on that is absolutely false. A handful of successful historical fiction writers have shaped what people think, including historians who may not specialize in the field.
The more popular an era or culture is, "Vikings", "Tudors" ect..., the more widespread fiction is produced & the more confused the general public.
I really enjoyed the television series "Vikings" & "Tudors" but a drinking game based on false info would lead to hospitalization.
When ideas get embedded, they can creep into the beliefs of people who have reason to know better, and you get more unfounded resistance from people who have not done any research but hold onto these ideas like they are religious doctrine.
I wish after every episode of "Vikings" aired, they'd had a little half hour show with Jimmy correcting what was wrong & pointing out what was purely fictional.
Fiction is great, but when it gets confused with fact it erodes our actual understanding of the period. I'm so happy we have people like Jimmy. I just wish every wannabe Viking or fan watched him.
I didn't know Ethelred the Unready's epithet was a pun. That's pretty funny actually, good one medieval historians!
I learned something cool and new today! That we have a punny name for an ancient king fossilized into the modern day makes me so so happy. Just giddy! (Linguist nerd, I come by it honestly.) Just like how quirks of older versions of English are preserved in children’s nursery rhymes! (That’s a particular interest of mine.) It’s like excavating a historical site, but instead of dirt, you’re sifting through language! Love it!! :D
This sent me down an entire JSTOR rabbit hole reading about syncretic art in the Manx runestones. Thanks for the fascinating reading ideas!
9th century German texts hold some awesome insights into Pagan/Christian coexistence. Famously the Merseburg charms were pagan magical incantations referencing several gods like Wodan and Friia, but written down on a flyleaf in a Christian liturgical Text by a Christian cleric.
And the Wessobrunn Prayer is an all around Christian text, but the syllable -ga- is written with a G-rune as a shorthand - mostly in the form of the participle prefix (ge- in Old English and y- in Middle English), but even inside the word "forgapi" (i.e. '(for)gave').
Thank you for the videos Jimmy. Absolutely fascinating. People forget that these "huge armies" were only a small percentage of a population. Most just wanted to live normal lives farming, smithing, weaving etc. Warp weighted looms seem to take forever to set up and the upward weaving motions and beating the yarn into the shed is painful on the arms (well it was on mine)
hmmmm mead and D and D gaming. That could be interestingly messy. Good luck and have fun.
Sadly as an international person, can't order yet but I really *mead* to get some ;)
Another gem, as usual. Thanks for giving me a moment of laughter-filled learning today Jimmy :)
I was drinking a G&T this time for the nuance drinking game. Decided to become a patreon. Not just the gin doing the thinking, I really enjoy your content.
YO! That D&D game is going to be awesome!! I love to listen to you while I play CK:3. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us! ps. your beard is looking amazing, my dude!
I’m proud of it, it’s doing so well!
Loving my ck3 at the minute as well. Battering the granny out of the HRE as Brittany!
One thing I read was that a lot of early Christian missionaries would tell pagans that their gods weren't real gods, they were just ancestral kings and heroes who had come to be worshipped as gods in error. This allowed converts a bit of freedom to carry on holding the traditional deities in positions of esteem and pass down their myths, so long as they were practicing Christians. Loads of early Medieval English genealogies claim that nobles were descended from Woden and Thor, and it's my understanding that this was why- they weren't actually claiming to be demigods.
Loving all these vids lately. Keep it up boss!
I need to watch this again, as I missed so much after you said "Rollo" and I had flashbacks to the cheaply animated 1980s kids telly show. Blimey!
Oh wow, that hasn’t popped into my head for a long time!
The beard + pen thing send me xD
Fantastic Video and important message! Be kind to one another, now more than ever.
Always love me a nuanced discussion on this topic, especially with how many bad actors try to spin the interactions between Old Norse pagans and Christians as being a culture war. Like, fuck the Church for its colonial/proto-colonial tendencies, but let's not forget that they usually didn't do it directly: they acted through the nobility and monarchs they converted (St Olaf drowning volvas anyone?). So, if anything, the narrative should be more "fuck the nobles and the Church."
And it's also important to remember that we only know so much about Norse culture because of Christian historians. I don't think most would prefer that the Christians didn't record anything about Norse and Viking history, mythology, language, art and culture. I highly recommend Anders Winroth's The Conversion of Scandinavia: Vikings, Merchants, and Missionaries in the Remaking of Northern Europe, if you haven't read it.
@@mathiasgreyjoy1611 Sad that we don't get any written first hand accounts from within the culture itself, aside from the Sagas which were written later, but we have to take what we can get and try and interpret it in a way that would make sense to them.
@@mathiasgreyjoy1611 Sure thing, but let's be careful and not sanctity Christians either. Let's not forget what they have preserved is nothing but a fragment of something that was very bigger and lively, something that would've survived and evolved freely if it weren't for their forceful conversion. I get that the majority of Christians might have tolerated heathendom, but the process of cultural domination is a long one and it starts with assimilation. Syncretism might be a very sincere religious experience, it can also be very cynical. And the church used it as a tool to lure people into this new monolithic religion. What I want to say is that we shouldn't have to owe them thanks for doing the bare minimum, and then proceed to commit various cultural ethnocides.
@@urubutingaz5898yes we only have to look at the north American indigenous peoples experience to see how well that worked for them.
@@lenabreijer1311 My grandmother survived the "Indian School", set up by "Christians" to "kill the Indian to save the man".
Her brother didn't and the last "Indian School" in the US wasn't closed until 1994
"In my experience, your grace, the smallfolk pray for healthy children, a good harvest and a summer that never ends."
Religious zealots from any nation were horrible people eh . I'll continue happily and peacefully wearing my gloriously ambiguous Wolf Cross then. Thanks for a nicely nuanced explanation.
Also, love the pen in the beard. We said, "nice" at the same time. And as a spinner/weaver, yes, I can at least guess at how long it takes to weave a tunic. It ain't pretty.
That whole part about Æthelred the Unred is why I actually like what Ken Follett did in The Evening And The Morning, he didn’t use Æthelred the Unready, as that was wrong, neither did he use Æthelred the Unred, as (nearly) no one would get it, he used Æthelred the Misled; though it didn’t exist at the time, it rimes and is not necessarily wrong, also it matches what “Unred” meant!
As always, good video. Thank you so much for this!
And enjoy that D&D game! I'll have to watch at least some of it!
Thank you for the education! Always look forward to your videos.
Yay I was excited for part 2
Parts 1 and 2 were both extremely well done. Having determined, thanks to you, the definition of syncretism, I found the nuances you suggested far more likely than otherwise might have been apparent to me. You're a mensch! And easy on the eyes.
Hell Yeah! Part 2! Can’t wait to finish it! Good work; keep it up and remember to take care of yourself!
Yay! Part 2!
Nuance is my favourite type of video and now, apparently, my favourite drinking game. Excellent work as always, Jimmy!
Always lovely to see another Welsh Viking video--I hope you are doing well, Jimmy!
On the commanders trying to stop their own forces from massacring innocents...
"Sometimes people are just horrible"
Thank you for making a point of saying that, especially given current political climate...everywhere.
(CW: people being horrible)
Today is the 55th anniversary of the massacre of My Lai in Vietnam, where no only where the U.S. troops literally herding unarmed Vietnamese into ditches to shoot them point blank, the commanding officers knew and approved, and it took a lowly Warrant Officer piloting a helicopter, and putting himself and his two crew members between U.S. armed forces and innocent people, and then going to command to yell about it, to stop it. It then took decades of him fighting for the massacre to even acknowledge the role of the U.S. army and command on that massacre. (How many others we don't know about, how many others were not stopped by anyone present?)
As for the modern British...well. Badajoz under Wellington, just to name one.
And let us not forget Russian forces today in Ukraine, or Israel on Palestine, or or or or.
/rant
Nice beard mate.
and thanks for mentioning friesland ( frisia )
Thank you for posting this. I always enjoy learning new things from you.
You had me at "Jimmy plays D&D!" YAYYYY!! As a long standing TTRPGer I'm super excited and I hope some of it at least (YES I will watch all 24 hours, I watch Critical Role, that's nothing!) will wind up on the TH-cams for our enjoyment and edification.
And what an excellent cause!!
Fascinating look back as always, thank you.
I really love the Time Team Episode on the Isle of Man! It really showed this mix of Heathen and Christianity melding. Those rune stones ❤
I'm loving this topic. Thanks for your accessible discussion of what can be confusing to us non PHDs. 😂
With so many nuance shots, I'm already drunk and it's not yet St Patrick's xD
Very interesting video. Since you're living in York now, would you consider talking more about the Viking and Dane history of York/Yorkshire? Hope you have a great day!!!
Yay I've been waiting for this! We are developing some crazy kind of crush on the Welsh Viking. You've got to be the most clever highly intelligent and NUANCED contfempory creators on the toober. liked and thanked ahead of time now for the content yay thnx
Jesus, Odin, Buddha! I love you all!
Wonderful video! Very interesting to hear you speak of Repton, which is just up the road from me; apparently this was the first place in England to be Christianised. Would love to hear you shed some more light on how this happened, and also some enlightenment on the mass "Viking" grave found there.
Love this topic!! I even gave a lecture at my church about Vikings vs Christians, ha!! Thanks for your way of encapsulating the big picture 🥰
Great video. Always nice to see someone trying to be objective. Its why i love Fadlans recordings along the Volga. Cheers Jimmy!
Also converting was made more or less mandetory due to restrictions in trade with pagans from christians, snd that is loss of income and connections. I can't imagine braving the sea just to be rejected when comming ashore and wanting to sell my wares or even trade them for something i wanted or needed for living. Would suck big time.
But yes the sword was used for conversion, but convinience too. Life just got simpler when accepting another diety.
Nice, I haven't seen that stone diptych (term?) before, but I love the idea of equivalency getting the point across. "Okay, so on the one side is Odin, with his raven, stabbing Fenrir with a spear (crowd goes wild). On the other side, there's a Christian priest, with his bible and cross, stabbing a snake. (crowd falls silent in thought). "Holy guy, with accoutrement, stabbing the evil. Got it?" (crowd murmurs in appreciation "oh nice parallels - I think making the Christian priest like Odin is a big assumption - sure, granted, can't imagine their Pope going out and stabbing the snake - In those robes? Have you heard about those? - Right?! - But still, the art really sells the idea - Without a doubt, that stone mason deserves a pint").
Twirling of mustache was a nice touch.
One of the mediaeval characters I love is a preist called Helmold of Bosau (12th century), who wrote about the complicated relationship between his own bishop, Vicelin, the local Wends (Slavs) who were not Christian, and the German princes and kings who officially backed Christianity. Vicelin evidently wanted to befriend and convert the Slavs, but the secular Germans equally evidently wanted to kill all the Slavic rulers and occupy the Slavic lands themselves. This was in and around Lubeck; so it's obvious who won in the short term. But at least Helmold was able to record his view of the matter.
Be more Terry. Thanks Jimmy, fascinating as always.
GNU Terry Pratchett
Always impressed by how entertaining and educational you make your videos.
Congrats on the continuing sponsor and I'm sooo excited for the DnD charity event! I hope you're able to relax and have a great time with it. One of these days I'll get over there to visit and have some of that mead!
Ah, my good friend Nuance….this is wonderful ❤
Dear Jimmy,
As I found myself singing to my dogs while making their dinner, I pondered the tune. It felt familiar, but I couldn't remember where from... until I watched this! 🤦♀️ ♫Bailey dog is a very silly dog, Lily dog is a very silly dog...♫
Your plan to infect the world with Welsh culture is succeeding, well done!
very nice meeting you at ARM today, got some to the Elderflower Mead from the lads at Nidhoggr. I got way too over excited talking and completely forgot to ask you if you knew about the Serpent Sword project.
I'm late to the video because something came up in the middle of my first watching...
But your description of people sometimes just being horrible reminded me of the hussites - a great example of a very religiously-charged movement from the late Middle Ages - and how their famous battle song that translates roughly to "You Who Are God's Warriors" is actually basically a soldier's manual/pre-battle speech with some religious imagery thrown in, and includes lines reminding people not to focus on the loot.
Yay! Nice treat after a busy day at work. As always, love the nuance!
Great video and very insightful. Also, the beard looks great! 😊
Thanks!
"do you know how much time it takes to weave cloth?! I don't have time to hate people"
Thank you very much for these two very informative videos; your analysis makes a lot of sense.
Thank you. Lucid and interesting.
Individuals almost certainly didnt give a toss what you were, institutions on the other hand certainly did. Olaf Trygvason for example, forcing his subjects to convert under pain of death, and the Catholic church in general was not at all tolerent of anything other than their way (as you said in part 1). So yes nuanced for many, but black and white for many in power.
I'd love to see Jimmy doing a tale of the Isle of Man from Mannanan-mac-Lir through Bugganes and Phymoderees to Orry the Dane and the Battle of Sky Hill.
I dunno if medieval humor is really that different from current day. I mean, is 'Ethelred the unready" really such a far leap from 'Boaty McBoatface"?
I'm normally an early modernist but it's great to learn more about different periods. As a witchcraft scholar, I come across some... interesting... opinions on paganism in history.
This is probably the best way to end a birthday alone at home 💜
Happy Birthday! 🎂🎁🎈🎉
@@Aswaguespack thanks!!
Ile give myselfe this listening ear treat first thing in the morning to morrow 😁😊
Great Video! Thank you for dispelling a lot of myths about this time in history.
21:33 Me feeling like I should grow my beard just so I can stab myself like that 😳
Btw, does anyone know the name of the opening/closing song?
Hi Jimmy,
Obviously I don’t really know how you are feeling but I think you seem to be doing a lot better and I think that is lovely. Please don’t feel you ever have to put up a front though.
Your sign off as well as being in Welsh which delights me as a fellow Cymry., also delighted me with your instructions to be nice. I love it that that seems to matter to you.
These were really interesting videos, with all their nuance 😂, thank you x
Diolch yn fawr, Diane :) I’m getting there as best as anyone can I think :)
@@TheWelshViking good! I enjoy your videos , but not to the extent that I want you to make yourself I’ll if you miss a few. Take care of yourself and be nice to yourself too. ❤️
Wonderful info and presentation!
Another excellent video explaining a complex subject - and not shying away from the nuances! Thank you.
Great work
Funnily enough I had the same question asked at an event in St. Tudy when I was chatting about the Hogback/Coped Stone there. My best answer was 'hundreds of man hours' which I think is probably accurate? There's a video on youtube of a chap remaking the Coneblin (sp) Cross using historic methods and I think it took him several years to finish albeit that is extremely complex work.
Oh wow, that’s one helluva project!
wonderfully informative!
The artwork featuring both Christian and Norse pagan imagery kind of reminds me of Beowulf, which, if memory serves, does something similar in text (I do recall a mention of Grendel being descended from Cain).
Yay Nidhogger elderberry is deliciouso!
Thank you for clarifying at 18:51 , I thought the Anglo-Saxons were trying to get at fleeing delicious sentient cream filled donuts inside a church.
Sir, your beard is magnificent.
Part two is here!
I think this has an interesting comparison also to historical events happening in parallel in other parts of the world, or happening slightly after - I wonder if some of the "they hated each other!!!" rhetoric doesn't come in part from events like the Crusades, even though it overlaps minimally with the ~Viking period, because medieval wars [of religion]... even though those were wildly differently motivated.
Thank you for the video! Always good to have some ✨nuance✨ in your history
am i the only one that started drinking at every mention of "nuance"? or got slightly giddy with excitement seeing you stick a pencil through your beard?
thanks for these great and informative videos that i watch with great interest even though my comments may suggest otherwise... hope you have a great evening/day!
The pencil thing made me chuckle
Great concluding episode. Loved this. Btw, I always understood unraed to mean no counsel, but was unclear if that meant no one was advising him or that he wasn't taking advice from others (and my lecturers didn't seem sure either). Either way, he didn't do too well.
Nicely nuanced, now let’s get the mead!
Love your work, Jimmy❤
Just received some Raspberry Lemon mead from Nidhoggr a couple of weeks ago, which I ordered after another of your videos - it is amazing and is the official special treat in my household. I'm in the US and it's really expensive after shipping, but totally worth it. My first shipment got lost in the mail, but they followed up and sent me a new one, worth the (2 month?) wait!
Sounds like the people in customs know to look out for it……
Great, very informative video yet again jimmy, I constantly steer people your way when asked about viking stuff as you are much better at explaining things than I'll ever be. The pen in beard did give me a good chuckle
Your beard is beautiful! I see some red in it...:D My son has your coloring with a bright copper beard. And Norse Gaels rock! I love how all these people end up going native, the Norse twice, once with the Vikings, and again with the Normans. Jimmy, you seem like you're doing better. I hope you get some sunshine now that the year has turned. It's so important to fill in the gaps between Roman Britain and the Norman Conquest. Have you seen videos on the legend of Robin Hood? Fascinating? But I love this era with all the stories of Norse, Danes, Gaels, and the kingdoms. It would be fun to have you do some history of Wales. I was watching some history and it's amazing to understand more about the Mabinogion. I'm happy to hear the variation in the pronunciation. Can you do a video on the famous marriage between Reynold and the princess of Donegal that made him King of the Islands? Great video!
I plan on some Isles vids sometime soon! Happily the Isles feature in my personal research :) You’re very kind, thank you 🖤
I'm interested in Wales too as they seem to have kept so separate for so long. Also interested in hearing about Cornwall as that's where I live now and it seems to have kept been semi-isolated and independent, while still being very connected to the world via the sea.
Interesting vid..and love your side- trackedness..which is a word now,feel free to borrow😅
Wonderful Lecture and presentation we so enjoy from History Jimmy. Thanks. Keep the topics coming. Everything you discuss is fascinating. You could probably read a phone book and make it interesting!
The Pagan/Christian monuments remind me a lot of "The Journey To The West" a famous Chinese story where 3 Taoist immortals accompany a Buddhist priest on a pilgrimage to India. Taking the earlier pre-Buddhist mythological figures to "explain" Buddhism. (interestingly, in the version on the telly in the 1970s at least, they're going to Gandhara - The Greek/Zorostarian/Vedic/Buddhist centre in western Pakistan - you don't get no more syncretic than that!)
Great explanation and thank you for balance in this story - having a name that has it's roots in the 'vikings' settling in England (from gunnhildr) I have always got a bit peed off myself that every time vikings were explained they were the bad guys. Apologies for last videos comments, i think i missed the last few minutes for some reason, probably getting some mead. Great information.
Syncretism is a seriously powerful thing that many people overlook when trying to separate, categorize and codify the believes and influences of ancient and modern religions.
Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism are for most part in your average mind, forgotten religions but they were major world religions that had a huge influence on the development of major world religions such as modern Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
Zoroastrianism especially, there are many, many Zoroastrian teachings that have become mainstream and extremely popular in Christianity, (Catholic and Protestant) and Orthodox Judaism that have absolutely ZERO true basis in the OT or NT but are seen as central and foundational beliefs in those religions even though they are completely absent from the actual sacred text understood in their original language, cultural and historic contexts.
Alot of it in Christianity at least can be blamed on Augustine of Hippo, who was panned by actual learned biblical scholars of his time, but his ideas gain traction due to appealing to minds heavily influenced by Neoplatonism, which was also a major influence on the development of modern christian thought and itself heavily influenced by eastern ideas from religions like Zoroastrianism and further eastern Indian religions.
Im sure the same thing happened with the Christians and the Norse. They coexisted for over half a millenia, that is ALOT of time for exchange of ideas and syncretism to occur by the time the poetic eddas are written.
I don't know about a warp weighted loom but I saw a video from a museum with a floor loom from the 1700's. The presenter said a good weaver could produce about a foot an hour.
Add to that the time it takes to spin enough thread to warp the loom and at least an equal amount for the weft and your pretty much occupied for the year.
This was so interesting.😊
Guys I'm not sure if he mentioned it, but I think this topic might have some nuance to it.
Knew Ontz.