Electric Starters for Jets ?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- Looking into the intake of a 50s fighter jet engine, and a little talk about why electric starters were the way then, but not now.
This engine is used to power the Canadair Sabre 6, which is a Canadian-built licensed copy of the F86-F, one of the best fighter aircraft of the 1950s.
![“อาร์ต พศุตม์” เกือบเอี่ยวทุกคดีดัง เอ๊ะไว้ก่อน ไม่มีอะไรได้มาง่ายๆ | แฉ 16 ต.ค. 67 [2/3] | GMM25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0Gx-0-kUBv8/mqdefault.jpg)
![[UNCUT]"ทนายตั้ม" แฉยับ! ความลับสวรรค์ ใครคือ "บิ๊กเทวดา" ของบอสพอล l คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ l 15 ต.ค. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ru9fpSaUwdA/mqdefault.jpg)
I remember working on a small J69 (centrifugal) engine with an electric starter in the USAF. It brought back a lot of memories. Thanks.
I find it kind of amazing that we had the technology to design and build these things in the 40's and 50's.
and without any computers, just "slip-sticks"; I still have mine.. Also the original electric starter was a starter/generator built by Cad engineer Chas. Kettering around 1912. It mounted around the flywheel at the back of the engine. Kettering founded DELCO (Dayton Laboratory Company); he also co-invented Freon for use in home refrigerators as a replacement for ammonia gas which was killing people due to leaks which is why you see the frig
placed outside of early homes, usually on the back porch.
there were bold people to develop such invention, that lasts nowadays
You call them slipsticks,this side of Atlantic we call them slide rules.Great term,slipstick.
I'm far from any aviation related industry but I already lost the count of videos from your channel I'm watching in a row. Every single video is a pleasure to watch for technology lovers. Thank you so much for sharing information with geeks all around the world!
I’d love to see some specs on those electric starters sometime if you have them. It’d be really interesting to know the hp ratings, watts or amperage, etc.
Thanks for the explanation Jay. I work regularly at an FBO and am in and out of the MRO bays and had wondered why I never saw any large electric motors, especially after using a 48V starter off of an old military surplus jet engine to make an electric car in my later childhood. The powerplant mechanics all know how old I am after I tell them this story!
Man you are really kind in your description, comments and conversation... , you really have people “be” there in the room with you.., they feel part of it👍 cheers!
When at the airport, i never see some compressors etc starting the commercial airplanes, do they have electric starters driven from batteries or the APU?
Sounds like a different start sequence is being used by the sound of your description.
Our huffer supplies compressed air to drive an air-turbine starter,, which mechanically turns the engine.
There are turbine-impingement starteing systems, in which compressed air is directed at the turbine and so it does the actual turning of the engine.
I absolutely love your channel. Thank you!
Very informative, as usual!
In the 60s and after the Mirage fighters had their jet engine started by a turboshaft engine - which was electrically started - located in the intake as on the video. That turboshaft engine was a cute little engine of 60 hp at first and later 80 hp.
Perfect for a vehicle. I would love to see one of those...
These "Microturbos" engines were very light. Note that they had not been designed to run for hours as a regular turboshaft., so it might be problem for a vehicle. Look at the beast :o) th-cam.com/video/owuf9LsOLcA/w-d-xo.html
By the way, the air forces from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela and Ecuador have used those. Maybe a possibility to get one?
Thank You JayZ, enjoy all you are presenting sir.
It's just brilliant that these beasts were designed around 80 years ago.....that golden era of aerospace.....
Well, your thinking is bang on... because although I focus on the starter role... this is actually a starter generator, and it does axactly what you say.
Compared to the J47 this engine is surprisingly clean at the front. You have two hydraulic pumps and primary fuel system there. The secondary one was on the left side of the engine. You could work in it from inside the intake duct but it was a pain. The J47 is also a tight fit and you have nothing to guide it. Also the tail and the fuselage had to be well aligned in order to assemble it back. We used a jack in the nose to do that. Also, the jack aleviated the load on the nose wheel since the CG travelled well forward with the tail out; it was realy heavy. The Fiat G-91 tail was much lighter but even so we still used the jack; it helped a lot and spared the nose wheel.
Yes, the owners of the Sabre 6 into which this Orenda is installed also own an F86-F, fitted with a J47, which I also built, featured in some earlier videos...
When an electric starter is turned on, does a shaft come out which rotates the turbine, then once the turbine is running and the starter turned off, the shaft disengages from the turbine, or does the starter continue to spin all the time the engine is moving but only have power to it when it is turned on?
Amazed to even see this being used now! Big electric motors weigh a ton. Surprised to even see one in use anymore. I worked at Garret Air Research/Allied Signal quite a bit, please don't kill me, so I have seen a lot of this stuff. Honeywell now owns the facility. I have not been back there since they took over.
I am logged into Google & hence YT under my mother's name so, disregard the name. It is Seth Burgin, sorry;
It's been a long ass day, and coming home to a new AgentJayZ video really made it all worth getting through!
That's a sexy engine btw. I hope to see a test video before you guys ship it back to the owner!
I love your videos and I'm glad you share this stuff with the rest of us. I work on computers and other electronics the way you work on these amazing engines and my friends are always amazed by it. I wonder if that's the same amazement I feel watching you rebuilt this stuff. Lol. Thanks for being amazing.
+Jason Queen Hey! I used to be a CNA, built computers, helped install networks, and did on site help calls and training for our top customers.
But that was back in the day when a lot of people had a hard time switching from 3.1 to 95.
+AgentJayZ
Nice. Sometimes I wish for something as simple as DOS and 95. I'm more of a hardware guy. I like things I can fix with physical parts and tools. Software is always a pain.
Wow! Okay, more learning I've got to do. Thank you for the information and leads!
I was dong some research on bearings and I came across a video Radial Air Bearings on a Precision Shaft, Do you think air bearing could be apply to jet engines?
Hi Mr AgentJayZ. First of all I want to thank you for your amazing videos! I am studying a Bachelor of Aviation while I work on my CPL. It's such a pleasure to listen to a someone explain something they are clearly passionate about.
My question is this: Everything I have read suggests that a pneumatic starting system is not only substantially lighter than an electric system, it is also cheaper, simpler and easier to maintain/repair. So why would you ever have an electric starter over a pneumatic on any aircraft? What is the advantage?
Stephen Beaver Pneumatic starting system is just that. For starting only. The advantage of an electric starter motor is that you have both starting and electrical generation in one combined unit, rather than having something to generate bleed air , and a seperate generator.
Today first time I got clear concept about starting jet engine
Jay, are there shims and/or a dampening pad at the roots of the fan blades on the Orenda, like there is on more modern engines (e.g., the CFM-56)?
There is no fan on the Orenda.
The compressor blades mount directly into their slots, without any shims or dampers
+AgentJayZ pi
In this application, as in most of aviation, a lockwasher is not used. Imstead we have a flat washer, and a self-locking nut. The self-locking nut is described in my Lockwire video.
There is a video out there of a Canberra bomber having one of its Avon engines spun up with an AVPIN starter. They don't start the engine, but it is amazing how quickly that cartridge starter winds up the Avon.
You can find it.
@Blackmoonempire Yes, they are fixed with tiny allen screws. It seems easier and more secure to use studs, but that's the way it was done.
Some very fascinating fundamentals I wouldn't have even known to ask about - THANKS!! Jim/Ohio
It's actually a very small amount of material. It does not provide the actual energy for the spark, but is incorporated into an electronic component that produces a variable signal. This signal is used to trigger an excitation circuit ( whatever that is ), producing small pulses of current, which are amplified to huge levels by more circuitry, until we have the huge and dangerous spark that is present at the ignitor plug.
Any liquid that burns can be used as fuel.
Turbine engines use high voltage discharge ignitors to supply spark to get the fuel burning. Once the engine is running, these are usually switched off.
Like a candle or a gas lantern, the engine will burn fuel as long as it is available.
Engines only stop when the fuel is cut off, with extremely rare exceptions.
Re-starting while in flight can be done, as long as the core is turning at sufficient rpm.
Nice video! May I ask, where exactly can I learn more about electric starters on the web? It would be nice if it's as comprehensive as the video "The Air Starter - Turbine Engines: A Closer Look"
Really cool - that electric starter motor is really a monster. Thx for showing and explaining :-)
I performed maintenance on the MD-3 motor generator ground power dc motor generator. The critical component was the spring loaded actuators that "rubbed" against the rotating exciter. The unit had a high powered gas non turbine piston Packard engine that would sing songs at low rpm to high rpm of what normal human hearing would want to push the volume up toward deafness levels. When the cowl was rotated for engine inspection and the full force of the motor could be observed. THE BLUE flames crackling UPWARD in hard attitude could not be ignored. -- Memories of a former AGE mechanic
@colin340 Have you watched the air starter videos?
Hi Jay !
Im a fan from Germany. I found your channel some month ago. Im a fan of turbines and you got the right channel where i can expand my technical horizon. I hope you understand what i try to say. Keep on the good and very interesting work... ! =)
@dtiydr The fuel pumps, oil pumps and tach are attached. It takes some power to turn them.
Thanks Jay! Very informative as usual!
Rich.
First off, Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! I have throughly been enjoying your videos! They're GREAT!
Back in 2003 I got to see a 1964-ish Saab Draken fly powered with a Volvo RM 6C Flygmotor (a.k.a., a Rolls-Royce Avon). The start sequence amazes me; it sounds like a huffer, then an electric motor, then compressed air, followed by a vacuum cleaner (the engine). You gotta' love it! Is the compressed air helping turn over the engine too?
Thanks again for all your efforts!
Many thanks for all of your efforts. So interesting
I don't know all the facts about all the engines out there. I only know about engines we work on.
But it seems to me your observations are good. The smaller engines are easily started with on-board batteries.
The air-turbine starter was developed for the larger engines. And I think only the larger aircraft use APUs.
I am not an aircraft expert, though.
@86Ivar Almost all modern airliners have an onboard APU to supply electrical power for the aircraft and a source of compressed air for starting the engines.
These APUs are small turbine engines, similar to that found in our start cart.
They are rated about 100 Hp. Give or take.
@Blackmoonempire ... you're right. I don't watch my vids very often, but I just looked at this one again, and those bolts are indeed retained by roll pins.
Good eye !
@krbruner In a power generating plant, the electric or electric-hydraulic starter is most often used, because as you say it does make sense.
In natural gas pipeline compressor staions, often an air turbine starter is used, and it can use the pressurized natural gas in the pipeline as its power source.
i'm glad youtube recommended this to me
Can you please tell me . Is the electric starter connected to the engine all the time . Or does it have something like a Bentix, as found on a car ? Which disconnects it at high speed ? If it is been turned by the jet ,all the time . Can it be used to generate electricity ? I like your series about jet engines very much always fascinating .
Interesting how the bolts for the starter are fixed, it looks like they are fixed with a kind of splint pin. Is there a thread in the engine frame, or are the bolts only fixed with the pins? I saw that at around 3:35
Nice vid as always. Does that starter double as the genny? I think some models of PT6 engines use them as starter-generators.
yes, most airliners have an on-board APU that can start its engines and run all electrical equipment when the engines are not running.
monopropellant. The AVPIN starter is essentially a small and compact gas turbine, usually mounted in the nose cone of the engine, which is powered by Isopropyl-nitrate and air carefully fed and metered. It develops a very high torque which can crank and start the engine in just a few seconds. That would explain exactly the sequence of sounds. I have found evidence of usage of the AVPIN starter with the versions of the Avon installed in the English Electric Canberra. Hope this helps... :o)
Is an APU basically a tiny version of an electrically started engine, which is used to produce the compressed air to power the air starters of the main engines ?
Yes, that's a good description.
The APU is a small jet engine that runs the hotel load of an aircraft on the ground and that provides air for starting the main engines, ye.
@pym480 If you take a look at one of my earliest videos, called "vintage fighter jet engine", it shows one of these ( Orenda 14 ) being started with the exact same type of electric starter. It was for a Canadair Sabre 6... the same type of plane this one is going into. That's Big Al running the electric start cart, and Electron Bill giving the signals.
Robin is in the control room running the entire show. As usual, I was behind the camera loving every second, because I love jets !
Jay, another great video!!!
It blows my mind how complex and sophisticated the jet engines were when compared to the technology used in the auto industry.
Chrysler's turbine car of 1963 was a neat concept. Do you have any opinion on that product?
Yes, two in fact. this very engine is featured in " Orenda Type 14: A Canadian Turbojet (1) "
and also in " Orenda 14 in the Sabre6 "
Here is a link to a video where a Bell 206 Jet Ranger starts it's turbine engine. You can hear the electric starter turn over the turbine, the igniter sparking and then the introduction of fuel. Best video I know of for the sound of a turbine starting. Very Cool Turbine Start - Bell 206 Jet Ranger Startup
We do that in the test cell. It's just down the street. Lots of engine test videos I've posted...
@saxonlight Hmmm... how about:
Future tense: blind to consequences
Present tense: unintentional masochist
Past tense: digital amputee
It looks like a "fan" but weighs nearly half a ton, and those blades are solid stainless steel...they'd chop up a broom handle like it was a french fry.
Your explanation of duty cycle would explain why my electric starter motor didn't work well as a drive motor for an electric car :D
despite my ignorance on duty cycle - the electric starter motor for a jet still made for a screaming hot-rod of an electric car - until the commutator melted :D
Talisman1957
The problem with starters is not just the duty cycle (no cooling) - it's also the low service life compared to regular motors. You should have used an aircraft dynamo, those are designed to run all the time and could be converted to a motor.
@zero00tolerance To see air turbine starters, have a look at my videos on air turbine starters, posted a month or two ago.
I do confirm and quote everything Jay wrote. The radioactive material was only present in very VERY small quantity (like a "dopant"), in a component called "spark gap". It was a trigger switch connected in the discharge circuit. In the laboratory where I used to work, we designed, built and maintained High Energy Ignition Units for turbine engines, but there wasn't any safety requirement for radioactivity, and that tells you that the amount of radiation produced should have been really low.. ;o)
This just blew my mind. I always thought the engines in airliners were started electrically.
I used to work for an electric starters company. To tell the truth I never thought there was any other way to start them, since they also produce the onboard energy. But the sizes are rapidly decreasing, a Rafale starter is like one third the size of that one.
So for this electric starter, does this spin the compressor or the turbine first?
This is a single shaft turbojet engine...
@FrontSideBus Yes
Thank you Jay! The kindest person as always! :o))))
It is actually not right that all modern engines are using compressed air for start up. Very modern engines like the GeNX-1B and the Trent-1000 are using so called variable frequency starter generators (VFSG) to save weight by getting rid of an external generator. These motors have the ability to work as a generator when they are not used as a starter anymore.
+CyberDroneII Yes, you are right. I don't work on any modern engines; only the old stuff. The starter on this Orenda is actually also a starter-generator, but it is quite heavy.
+CyberDroneII sir I have question. can You tell me how for example modern jet fighters like F16 F18 are started? i belive there no place there for APU. Do they have independent batteries and electrical starter or they need ground supply?
The F-16 and F-15 use a Jet Fuel Starter, which basically the same as an APU. As I understand it it is itself started by hydraulic accumulators.
Correct, accept unlike an APU, it doesn't provide electrical power or air. They just connect to the gearbox with a splined shaft to get the main engine going.
6 years ago they all used compressed air now they dont all use it but the majority do
Yes they are. And many large modern engines also have electric starters.
BEST CHANNEL ON TH-cam!
Question: Why aren't the different stages of a jet engine held together with splines in between the sections so you don't have to tare the entire engine down to get a burnt spline in a second stage turbine for example etc. It just seems easier to me. is there a reason why now, or is this being used on other engines? Thanks Al
Good to watch
Is it not possible to controlled spray a high pressure mixture into the combustion chamber, and thereby start the engine by its own drive mechanism?
Very close... Have a look in my playlist "Your Questions Answered" for the keywords air impingement starter. Also search for Starters and starting systems.
Does the electric start double as a generator?
If not, what do jets do to create power on board?
Im really suprised it slowed down that fast, i expected it to spin for maybe some minute before stop, is this normal?
Are all airliners dependent on ground support to start? Can't the APU be used to start the main engines somehow?
how much documentation does it take to work on an aircraft engine? i know it depends on customer and other things, but just trying to get a base idea.
Probably not much. I'm guessing it would all fit into a tri-fold pamphlet...
That's true for industrial engines. An engine for a commercial airliner has more paperwork involved with its mechanical history than most people do with their medical history. Thousands of pages.
That's one of the reasons we don't work on commercial aviation engines.
Hey man. Dude, I was being so totally sarcastic that I actually came across as serious! Totally agree with what you wrote, AgentJayZ!!
+AgentJayZ great channel! What do you mean by industrial as opposed to commercial? Are these stationary electrical generating units ? Or industrial like cargo airplanes?
im clyde mullen and been watching your videos of jet engines and is very interesting indeed.i have a question: on the ignition system of a jet engine: why do they use a radioactive box to supply the spark with ignighter next to fuel nozzle to start engine?does the radioactive box have uranium that is shielded to provide the spark?could you answer these question for me agent jayz?and what fuels can you use for a jet engine?
This is sounds stupid, but how much voltages and amps needs to run one of those? (Sorry my bad English..)
+Anton Widiastanto Starter uses 30VDC. Initial current is 750 amps. As rpm builds, current approaches 50A. At that time starter is shut off.
+AgentJayZ thak you very much.. Wow! so it's need 22500watts, I wonder what is battery looks like or is it charge by ground power supply..?
If you watch the videos of us starting it, you can see the power supply.
Actually Electric starters are coming back and are in use. 787 electric starts for example. And with big Lithium on board batteries some aircraft use those to directly spin the starters without the need for an APU go supply initial electric And once the engine is started the starters are driven by the engine and become the generators. So no more dead weight.
We don't work on engines that go into helicopters, but if it's a retired engine out of a helicopter, going into a fast boat or a jet-powered mud bogger, then yes, we do work on those.
what kind of aircraft is this engine going back into?
Jay, do you have any video of this very engine being started?...
love your videos man, keep em coming
Do most Airliners/Corporate Jets use electric starters for the APU then Bleed air off that for the engines? Also I have seen smaller Jets like a Beech Premier or older citations (W/O APU's) Just hooked to a battery cart...Do those jets have electric starters since there would be no source of bleed air for the first start?
Very interesting. Thanks!
The boeing 787 has electric starters for the engines. Since they've done away with bleed air to 'improve economy' (jury's still out on that one) they have had to incorporate 2 very large (250kVA) starter/generators on each engine and the APU.
so do you discover many faults on double/triple checks?
for me is 2 thank 4 you all appl coming with technology thank alot
I can definitely understand the weight savings benefit on an aircraft engine, but what about in an industrial application, where weight savings are moot? Would seem like that in an industrial application, rolling around a huffer, would kill the plants ability to control stuff automatically. If the turbines are in a power generation plant, wouldn't electric starters just make more sense or do some plants use a large electric industrial compressor to start the turbines, instead of a huffer?
how do the air starters work?
the 787 dreamliner uses electirc starters right?
Thanks. Great video.
Jay thanks for all your videos but I always wonder what all these great engines power and you rarely or at least not all that often say. Can you try to tell us what eash particular engine is off of. As an example you say a lot about this orinda buy I don't think I've ever heard you say what it's out of.... Just a suggestion.
Do most of today's fighter jets need and external power source (either air or electric) to start their engines?
One of the early German jet engines had a motor from a motor cycle as a starter, It was a pull start :
It was a junkers engine,as I recall. Two stroke bike engine inside the hub at the front of the engine,with a pull cord like a lawnmower! Imagine watching someone start one of those on the airfield
Some newer jets such as the 787 have gone back to using an electric starter generator since advances in technology have made large electric motors, and their associated equipment much lighter.
Yes, the electric motors of today are much more powerful, and the core rotor of modern jet engines is much smaller than that of the J79. Electric starters are the best way to get the job done with modern engines.
Patchuchan Boeing 787 Dreamliner suffer of lot of electrical problems, even all fleet of them was grounded (that didn't happen to any other airplane since 1979). There was at least 4 battery fires, where root cause of the fires were not identified, but Boeing was ordered to redesigned battery management system, system that control generators, put fire-suppression systems in the electrical compartments... That why they probably decided to abandon no-bleed electrical systems architecture in newer jets.
Umm..a little electrical machines 101 for you: when electrical energy is being transferred into mechanical, it is a MOTOR. When mechanical energy is turned into electrical, it is a generator. It all depends on how its being used at the time. That's why in the electric motor design world we call them electrical machines instead of motors or generators since it depends on how they are used at a given moment.....
@AgentJayZ Yes ofcourse, i totally forgot about those things.
I've helped hang several F-4 engines. It really sucks to spend 2 whole shifts hanging an engine and then something is wrong and it has to come back out.
very informative videos.
@86Ivar They can, the engines use the force of the wind being to spin the blades, then the engines can reignite.
You're welcome! :o) My previous job was all about cranking, ignition and electrical power on aviation turbine engines... it was my thing! :o))))))))
did you forgot the lock washer on that moter?
haha. excellent! thanks for the reply!!!