How Does Pinball Do In A Regular Arcade In 2022?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- arcadeheroes.com - I've hinted at pinball but not addressed it specifically in recent videos, as it's different enough that it deserves a video of it's own. So here we are. Does pinball work in a modern arcade? Why or why not? As an arcade operator of two locations, I get into this question in some detail.
Also has a little bit of Elden Ring in here...
#pinball #gaming #business
Interact with the Arcade Heroes community on Guilded: www.guilded.gg...
Or interact on Discord: / discord
Thanks to everyone who has watched and commented! With so much interest, I've done a follow-up video, which includes more numbers from other arcade ops out there: th-cam.com/video/GS207d-3wsk/w-d-xo.html
Speaking personally, I'm a pinball enthusiast who doesn't own any pinball tables, but I love going out and finding places to play pinball. I'll even drive about an hour to find a place if they've got a decent number of tables. So, I would say that not every pinball fan is spending thousands of dollars on tables at home, there's definitely those of us like myself who are not collectors, but also not casual fans.
The thing that got me more interested in pinball was learning how much more there is to the game. I never even used to think about nudging the table, let alone about techniques like dead bounces, catching, or cradling the ball. When I first played a pinball table as a kid, all I used to do was hit the ball randomly and try to keep it in play, and I think that's true of most people's first experiences with pinball. For me, that was my only experience with pinball throughout my childhood and even into my teens and 20s (mostly because where I lived, all of my local arcades basically disappeared around 2005, when I would have been 17, and any arcades at that time had mostly gotten rid of pinball around 2001~2003, when I was 13~15). I would still play a table any time I saw one throughout my late-teens and early 20s, perhaps out of nostalgia, perhaps just because of the flashing lights and all the sound effects, but I would not say I was a pinball fan at that point, because I didn't actually understand the game, and thought it was mostly just luck.
I didn't learn any advanced pinball techniques until my late-20s, sometime around 2016, because I simply didn't have many pinball tables around to learn them on. It was really Farsight's The Pinball Arcade that got me back into pinball, and taught me about all of these different modes on the tables. This eventually got me to understand that there's more to pinball than meets the eye, and led me to learning some pinball techniques. This is the moment I went from a casual player who thinks pinball is "kind of neat" to someone genuinely interested in the game.
Anecdotally, it seems like a lot of the people I've talked to who are not pinball fans have the belief that pinball is just random luck and that there's no skill to it, I have other friends who think that nudging the table is cheating, and that kind of thing. I think if we, as pinball fans, can dispell more of these myths surrounding pinball, it will help it to achieve more success overall. How do we do this, though? I'm not really sure. Perhaps signage? Maybe pinball tournament coverage on a big sports channel like ESPN? Maybe more virtual pinball with detailed rules and tutorials?
I also think Stern Insider is a great idea that is executed somewhat poorly. It's got great potential with the achievements that explain various goals on the tables, and it could tie-in to social media more, and just make pinball be more visible to people than it is currently.
It would help much more if they had a dedicated app instead of simply a website (which can be kind of cumbersome). It seems like there's also no way to share scores or achievements outside of the service itself, which is baffling.
Overall, I think the best thing for getting pinball to earn more is to just get people to truly understand that pinball is a game of skill and for them to honestly believe it. The myths of it being all random luck has definitely hurt the game more than I think you or I truly realize.
I completely agree I've seen people in arcade environments walk up to pinball machines and you can see they have no idea whay they are looking at 🤣 and on the rare occasion they actually try to play a pinball they just keep slamming the flipper buttons not having a clue and when they loose all 3 balls really quick they get annoyed.
And to be honest i personally dont understand why soooo many people don't know anything about pinball because i never grew up with seeing and playing pinball machines in arcades im only 25 myself so by the time i was old enough to go to arcades pinball had already been phased out of arcades so i grew up playing video game arcades or at home but yet I've actually always known what pinball was from a young age because you can still get lots of toy pinballs which i had and ive seen plenty others still have these days too and so i always knew from movies ect what a real pinball machine looked like and i actually grew up wanting one sooo bad i eventually got one when i was 18 and still have it now hope to have room for more in future and also regularly go to pinball clubs.
So if I who never grew up seeing pinball machines around in arcades like people from 60s 70s 80s would have then why dont most other people from my generation or even recently know what they are it baffles me to be honest 🤷♂️
What a well put video. I wish you good fortune on your endeavours.
It's such a double edged sword. Die hard pinheads want deep/complex rulesets that are daunting for us noobs.
As someone who spent most of my life ignoring the pinball machines at arcades - For me the issue has always been not understanding how to get better at it. I could pop a quarter into a machine, bat the ball around a few times, have no real idea what is happening other than enjoying all the flashing lights, and eventually lose, but it wouldn't be clear to me how I got to the 'lose' situation or what I could do better next time. So it felt kind of like throwing money away for a few moment's amusement of total randomness, whereas with a video game it was usually more clear what I did wrong in order to lose and how I could get better or go further. (Don't underestimate the appeal of 'Continue?' on a video game, where more money is clearly linked to more progress.)
The first time I EVER played more than one game on a machine in a row, that I can recall, was when I was at a video game museum where the machines were all free (included in admittance fee). And because I wasn't then feeling the pressure to win, or frustrated by losing, I started playing the pinball machines they had set up. Played a few times, got wildly different scores, STILL absolutely no idea what I'm doing or why i sometimes did 'better' or 'worse', but now the process of just fooling around was FUN. And since then I've vaguely had the hankering to go play more pinball!
But I still don't really want to go to an arcade where I'd have to play per-game. I've instead been looking up pinball clubs where you pay to be there for the hour/evening/whatever and then can play whatever you like. Even some sort of batch purchase ("Here's 20 pinball tokens, have at it!") would be more appealing than buying one game at a time, constantly feeling the pressure to stop and stop 'wasting' my money on a game I'm not good at. That's the thing about hard video games like Elden Ring or whatever. You've already paid the upfront fee, and now it's up to you to learn and improve until you finally master it. You can keep trying as long as you like. Even if you're stuck in one spot for ages, you're not losing anything other than time by continuing to try. (And for that matter you can learn and improve in the privacy of your own home without anyone seeing you screw up!)
Very good post here
AGREED!@@BootsORiley
This is a hard topic, especially since pinball is in a resurgence right now, with the manufacturers selling more then ever, often with a very long lead time. I think at the end of the day you are correct though in that education is the problem. Not many people know how to play pinball and get frustrated if they lose all 3 balls quickly, especially since pinball typically cost more in arcades. I personally see pinball more popular in a free play arcade, or i also seen some arcades pick a game of week set to free play. Additionally I do think bars are the primary focus now, and I seen a lot more success for pinballs in that environment. There's a reason stern has a brewery of a month and not arcade.
And also considering that he was giving numbers fr '21 which were likely still affected by C19. 2019 *did* have the best #'s he'd seen in a while, afterall. So yeah, another layer to the topic being difficult at the moment. Live streaming is changing the game, in my opinion. More and more people will begin understanding and enjoying the game, i'm thinking. Just compare now to 2009 when Special When Lit was made (i think), when the industry was preparing for pinball's death knell...
I wonder if they made simpler, beginners-oriented cabinets, because I never really considered that people just don't know what pinball is, but thinking of an arcade setting, maybe an eye-catching pick up and play table would be the solution
Pinball is alive and well in Ft. Wayne Indiana . Wizards world is a pinball arcade with 140 machines from every era . Coin drop and tip top shape . I think their secret is keeping people involved with tournaments and events non stop . You can see the love for pinball from the owner and employees . It's infectious and keeps me coming back . They treat and promote pinball the way pinball deserves . They also have 33 machines that are connected online . another way to make it exciting .
I’ve worked full time at our family arcade business since 1992(immediately after graduating). We’ve been in business since 1928 when my great grandfather started it. Everything you said is on point. I’m a “pinball guy”….especially from growing up in the business….but they don’t make money like they did many years ago. Honestly they haven’t really made money in my era of working full time. We just always had them because you were supposed to have pinballs right? 😂 We sold (or worse threw out😡) the majority of our pinballs back before they became valuable to home collectors. If I told you what we sold them for….most would be shocked…and at the time….you could hardly give them away. Nowadays….we treat pinballs as just something to keep the room feeling “gamey” and maybe dad or gramps will throw junior a few more 💰 to go play redemption games or cranes where the real money is while there happy playing a pin for a few min. But to make legit money….no. The home market has also helped ruin it by making the games so complicated for the average player, and the machines are way way overpriced for what they will earn.
I enjoy pinball but lately it seems like every other pinball game is based on a rock band. I don't see kids caring about AC/DC, Rush, Led Zeppelin, Guns n Roses, Metallica, KISS Motley Crew, Primus, Rolling Stones or Aerosmith. Ha ha, did I miss one? This are great for the bar and drinking but I don't see younger kids going to care for these properties.
They just need to make a Pokemon themed pinball game that gives Pokemon cards for high scores and you'd be rich.
Sidenote: Where's the hip hop pinball?
There are some themes which are better suited to kids(TMNT, Willy Wonka, Hot Wheels, Mandalorian, etc) but the problem is what happens after you've drawn the player's attention? Most games in their design still assume that every player which approaches it is a 50 year old guy who has been playing it all his life. IMO, this has to change to keep new players going beyond the first ball or first turn.
One example happened yesterday while I was editing this video. Had a pair of guys, I think in their mid-30s, come in. One was very interested in pinball, his co-worker said "I've never played pinball before" and so the other one kind of helped him figure it out. He still needed some guidance though; The guy won a match/free game, but no new person has any clue what a "match" is or what that knocker sound means. It baffles me that every game doesn't say "YOU'WON A FREE GAME! PRESS START TO PLAY AGAIN!" Instead most just make that sound then sit there with a free credit on it
You missed a bunch. Iron maiden, Alice Cooper, Rob Zombie, Ted Nugent, Elvis, The Who, they're making a Queen one... I'm probably missing some even still
I hate hip hop so much but your right!, "Def Jam hood ball" would be killer, you could win cards with rare ones been signed etc with the relevannt score also signed, and it could have a unique sound track and have real wild voice ques "Keep your eye on a ball N1$$a!!!"
Thank you for another insightful video about the arcade business, Adam. That’s super interesting to hear an old early 90s pinball outperforms some of your newer ones. Here in Las Vegas we have the pinball hall of fame with 800+ machines which is a ton of fun. I haven’t purchased any pinballs for my arcade yet. Large ticket price plus I’ve heard a lot of stories about repair that scares me.
Yeah, that's one side I forgot to mention on the earnings - it's far more maintenance heavy than anything else I deal with and the warranties are garbage. Tech support has been all over the place too among the different companies (sometimes great, sometimes horrible).
Pinball HOF in Vegas is astounding. That being said, when I take my kids we spend more time doing the speedboat video games, guitar hero, or the mini bowling alley. So, even there I can see how the Pinball Machines would struggle. Love that place though, go every chance I can.
No way! I had no idea you were a pinball enthusiast!
"An early 90s pin." The Adams Family. The most successful pin ever. Shocking a new game could only keep up. Local arcade has one them Stranger Things pins. I'll have to see how it compares to a early 90s pin in the game room.
@@chublez Yeah the 90s pinball tables were the best! And the number of The Adams Family tables made compared to the others is astounding! Now I don't see any around, but I've seen some of the other popular ones such as Medieval Madness, Monster Bash, Terminator 2, Theatre of Magic, and a few others I think. I'm very upset I couldn't afford to buy the Medieval Madness remake that was released only a few years ago! I would have loved to own a table of that one! That and the Attack From Mars remake. Those are two of my favorite tables!
Arcades in general have lost appeal, as the home video game revolution mostly obliterated the appeal of going to arcades for these experiences.
Most that still exist in my area are more focused on ticket systems and prizes to promote play.
The places I like the most have an entry fee or hourly fee for unlimited play. This simulates the experience I have with my home machines where I can really spend some time to drill deeper into the game. Maybe consider special nights where you have unlimited/hourly play to attract the more avid pinball players, where dropping endless coins to learn a game isn’t super attractive.
I was just at a place that retrofitted all their pinball machines with card readers where you pay by the hour ($10 an hour). And there was a 3 minute lock between swipes (so it encourages each person to get their own card and not share one). Loved it and we played pinball for a few hours.
It's crazy to me that you get a ton of people who don't know about pinball. I have never met anyone that doesn't know "hit the buttons to make the flippers flip; hit the ball and don't let it through the flippers; try to shoot for the flashing lights." I always thought scoring details are mostly superfluous and unimportant for anyone just playing it once or twice.
It's great to get this perspective from an actual arcade. The "What is this thing??" story was pretty funny.
I am a collector and I enjoy playing pinball. I hate how expensive even used games have become and you're right - how do you justify buying a new Stern or Chicago Gaming remake for 8-12K dollars when it will generate a grand a year. Like you said, the ROI is like 8 years. I think you need to sell more food and probably alcohol. Make your money on the pizza and liquor. Pins are really a loss leader - they are the bait that gets the patron into the establishment to spend their cash in other ways. I think you have a great spot and I'd love to visit because I love your passion and enthusiasm and well, us collectors have a lot in common with operators. I think many collectors *want* to be operators but the ROI doesn't support the effort.
Back in the late '70's I worked for a west coast Canadian company who bought amusement machines and placed them in pool halls and gaming centres .... and I had a route that spanned 200 miles. I collected and counted the coin, and made repairs on-site if possible to pinball machines, video games, coin-operated pool and foos-ball tables and other sundry coin-operated amusement machines you might find for children. The height of the industry was 1977-79 in my opinion, which was a time in history where pinball machines were failing, not because they were broken, but because I could not empty the machines fast enough. The coin mechanism would back up from too much money and be offline for two days until I managed to get to the machine. I exited that industry @ the end of '79, and it spiralled down ever since. I own three pinball machines and a bingo pinball machine. My favourite in my possession is a Muhammad Ali. Great video! Thanks for the info!!!
I agree 76-81 were the best pins
I was actually out at a pinball barcade last weekend. I'm a person who grew up in arcades in the 90's but isn't really into pinball. Pinball is very difficult to get good at, but is also pretty expensive to get good at. This is where your Elden Ring comparison breaks down, since with that game you don't have to put in another dollar every 10 minutes while you're learning. You also do feel cheated when you lose a ball and feel like you basically had no counter-play to prevent it. Pinball also does have the little instruction card which is important but almost no casual player reads. One of the coolest pinball machines I've played recently was Total Nuclear Annihilation, and I think that's because the game seemed to be streamlined around some clear objectives to get points and progress.
No the analogy doesn't go all the way, just the main point is that arcades/pinball have to be intuitive right off the bat for people to really invest more time/money into but where pinball isn't in most cases, that's where it fails to capture a bigger audience.
I didn't grow up with 90's arcades, as we didn't have one in my town, but I always loved pinball machines. First one I saw was the Indiana Jones pinball, and I watched older kids play the hell out of it. The learning curve is real. I played a lot of Pinball FX 2, I know it's not the be-all end-all of Pinball simulation, but that is how I really learned how to play the games within the game. I always seek out classic pinball machines when I see arcades nowdays, they're the most engaging arcade machine to me, I can play Street Fighter at home if I want, I can't play a real pinball table.
They earn (and run) better being left on paid play, they get used up being left on free play.
High maintenance and low roi is the deal with pins in public in general.
I agree with everything.
Speaking from a player's perspective. I was very much into arcade games in the 1990s through the mid 2000s. I've even got a few cabs at home that I play regularly, including a video pinball cab (due to space saving more than anything).
I did not consistently play pinball until near the end of the 2000s when my Dad showed me how to actually win at a machine. Before that it literally just felt like I was slapping metal balls around and watching lights blink for no discernable reason.
One Bar-Cade near me gets a good amount of traffic on their pinball machines, the ability to have a beer and put it on a nearby table (not the pinball table) helps, but they also have posters above each machine that explain how the game is played. Something a lot of those machines don't even do on their displays or on any of the design work.
The first time I ever tried pinball I did what you described, put money in, saw the ball show up and said 'What is this?' In my case I was expecting a foosball sort of set up to suddenly activate on the playfield and I thought I'd have to dodge obstacles.
I quickly figured out how the machine functioned, but had no idea what my goals were, or even if there were goals. I had no idea why I was winning, or losing, or how to tell if either was happening to the point that when I ran out of balls to play. I assumed I had run out of 'time' and not that I had simply lost.
I had the good luck of talking to a few arcade developers over the years (I used to work in pc/console games) and I was told over and over that there was a golden rule in game design for arcades; The player must be attracted to the cabinet within 10 seconds or less, the player must understand how to pay and what happens when they pay within 10 seconds or less. They must understand the controls within even less time and they must understand the core gameplay loop (walk to the right and punch things, shoot things as you scroll up the screen etc.) immediately upon the first stage loading.
Pinball rarely follows any of this. So it's just 'what is this? what am I doing? am I winning? Am I losing? I just lost 50c. I think I'll play something/somewhere else'.
A few operators over here seem to actually view them as customer repellants so they keep them a the very back if there are ever any available.
It's true that the idea of "what is this? what am I doing?" can definitely be a deterrent for a casual player...
But, it's interesting, because that's one of my favorite things about playing a new pinball table, just learning everything about it, experimenting and seeing how scoring works, what the various modes are and how to activate them, etc.
I suppose you still need to understand the basics before getting to that point, though, and that's where casual players tend to just give up and walk away, which is certainly a shame.
For me, whenever I go to an arcade with some pinball tables with friends who haven't played much pinball and I convince them to play a game with me, I mostly just try and explain some of the basics during my turn (skill shots, lane changing, what I'm shooting for, ball saves, etc.) in the hopes that it might help them better understand what to do on their turn. I guess you could call that being a pinball ambassador? Or something? I dunno, lol.
Operating Pins is sooo much more work with maintenance over anything else coin op. If the new interest dies with novelty waning off for the normal person I can't see it sticking around. I hope that never happens. The hard thing is if the games are not clean and running well it can really sour new people. I was at a relatively new barcade with at least 50% pins and you could tell they were falling behind with every machine having some issue and a lot of weak flippers.
Funhouse was my favourite pinball
There’s a comic book store beside me that has 40 pinball machines. Love going there.
I was in the video/arcade business back in the 80s. An idea I had for making pinball more approachable would be to add a couple of well-shopped, solid working Gottlieb wedge heads that you can pick up for about $700. You might consider a baseball themed unit. Set them up in the center of your line of pinballs with a big sign overhead saying "Easier Beginners Machines." Simple themes with clear objectives may do the trick. I'm 75 years of age and play a lot of virtual pinball on my computer and I still get a big adrenaline out of my virtual Bally Wizard! and Williams OXO.
I'm 36 and it isn't my generation. Pinball never enticed me. The video games were more attractive. Pinball was popular before the Atari revolution, that's my dad's generation.
The time where pinball made the most money was the 1990s thanks to innovations in the game's design, but it fizzled out by '99 or so as people did seem to find more interest in video. So the extra complexity did bring in a benefit for a time but mainly to those already interested in it.
Thanks for the insights. I went back to my old arcade after 40 years (Holland) and was told that they got rid of pinball machines around the turn of the century. I would love to have a bar nearby with some of the old machines, but they just don't exist here (UK). I think you are spot on with your comments on location and it doesn't surprise me that the west coast attracts more players. There is a market out there for guys who played in the 70 and 80s and don't care about their neighbour's / colleague's opinions. My guess is that you will find more people like that (or like me) on the West Coast than in the Mid West.
Just going to put it out there but I'm only speaking as an outsider with an equity background but it seems like your business model is awfully dated using a cost per turn method.
There's no way your present business practice can be sustainable at all, I don't know how your business is surviving let alone being able to open a second location.
I hear a lot of excuses to weak sales data but it sounds like your business as a whole is dated and you haven't offered value to the customer to keep them spending. Sounds like you've built it into your head that pinball is 'overwhelming' for the patron but that seems objectively untrue.
Get rid of the cost per turn strategy and use a time/pass method. Focus on marketing special events, acquiring a liquor license and push the hell out value-added product for a higher gross profit. That's where you'll see your true return. Who gives a fuck about a 50c play when you can sell time, hold the patron for longer and make far more money on the back-end? Seems like the problem is how you operate your business rather than the pinball machines.
While I appreciate your comment, as condescending and presumptive as it is, let me fill you in, since you're missing the whole picture. I have considered various business models and have even changed my model over time from what it originally was. You wouldn't know that from the context of a single, specific video though.
If the "awfully dated" pay-per-play model wasn't sustainable, then I wouldn't still be in business after 14 years, going through two economic crashes, a third happening as we speak. It also wouldn't work for Dave & Busters/Main Event, Round1USA, Chuck E. Cheeses and many other arcades that exist out there who still use it, only difference being with the use of cards. Ask yourself why most of these places don't touch pinball (Round1 being a small exception, although they tend to only have 4 pins or so, in an arcade with 200+ games), even though they also serve alcohol.
You say I'm deluded into thinking that pinball has a natural problem well I could say the same for you where you're pretending that pinball would perform the same as video games or prize machines, if only the business model was different. The model I use proves my point as machines *have* to perform better on an individual basis to hold their own. If you had watched my other operations videos, you'd see that the video I have outperforms my best pins by orders of magnitude.
This notion that pinball-diehards have that nothing's wrong with it is the same thing as those who think that retro video games are also just as hot now as they were 40 years ago. Just because you're crazy for them doesn't mean that everyone else is; Also, most pinball & retro game fans tend to have their favorite games at their house. If you've spent thousands of dollars on game equipment, chances are pretty high that you're rarely or never setting foot in an arcade as you have it at home already. I'd be pretty naïve to rely solely on a demographic who only comes in for the occasional tournament (although I do indeed appreciate the tournament players and those who organize them).
I have a competitor in my area who does use the time/pass model
you say is The Way - he absolutely loves pinball. Called Flynn's Retrocade so you can look them up, they only have old games(excepting the pins), sell sodas, and charge by time for entry - yet, for their pinball room, they still charge per play after you've already paid to get in. Why? Because the value of time/pass deludes individual performance and the cost of pins (not just initial purchase but maintenance) is something unsustainable without it being subsidized in some other way.
Liquor license? Do you realize that I live in the driest state in the nation? Yes, there are some bar/arcades here in the Salt Lake area (Quarters Arcade Bar, Pins & Ales, Dave & Busters, Round1). Quarters is the only one that banks hard on pinball but the others mysteriously do not. Maybe they just haven't been explained how to operate their business by an outsider yet to realize just how incredible of an earner pinball is.
Utah is also champion at birth rate in the US for many years running. That means we have a lot of kids and running a business model here that cuts out that demographic plus a strong religious populace (Mormons don't tend to drink) means that liquor isn't exactly the enticement it is here that it is in other parts of the country.
Funny enough, one of my best performing games is a kiddie driving game. It cost 1/4th of a pinball machine (even less when considering maintenance) yet it earns as much as 3 or 4 pins do on a weekly basis. Somehow I don't think that my business model is causing that "problem," if you want to call it that.
@@arcadeheroes_coinop Yeah, fair. I'll take that. It was presumptive and condescending. I caught your video on a whim, spent 20 minutes watching, got annoyed at the excuses and banged out a comment.
Just because the pay-per-play model works for the big boys, doesn't mean it's equitable for you to follow the same way in a smaller market with pinball. Their model works because they offer an experience that the mum and pop arcade cannot offer without eating a tremendous and unsustainable short-term loss. They don't see pinball as viable because the effort isn't needed and the gross profit doesn't outweigh expenditure of the machines. You, however. Love pinball and want to sell the game. Your passion lies in a love of the game and arcade rather than the big boys focusing on bottom line expense. It's a more bespoke and personal offering that you can give the customer but it doesn't seem like you're selling it effectively (given the data you offered in your video).
I do believe you're deluded into thinking pinball is the problem. You're not selling it properly and it's evident that the cost-per-play method with pinball is a failure. Works for prize machines but not pinball thus a change is needed for it to be effective. Your present model for pinball machines saying that they have to perform on an individual basis to hold value makes no sense to me as it's objectively failing considering its cost of operations.
I couldn't care either way about the success of your pinball machines or pinball in general. I don't have a horse in the race but there seems like a clear disconnect between your perception of pinball and how you're selling it. You speak of an extremely small minority of die-hard fanatics that have all their goodies at home but let's be real, that's an awfully small fraction of people and generally irrelevant potential customer base. An un-necessary demo to focus upon.
I find the time-pass model for pinball machines to be far better of the two. The value-return of your current model is in no way viable to sustain overhead. Just over a grand for your best performing machine should be enough for you to re-evaluate how you go about offering pinball. Your current method has to be subsidised through your other games to survive, just as your competitor has to with the time-pass method.
As for the liquor license, I'm in Australia, I have no clue about state laws regarding regulation of alcohol in Utah. That being said, if you're able to offer it. It's a value added product that can help your margins. I don't know why you'd totally disregard it unless you're legally not allowed to sell booze. Not saying it has to be a focus, just an offering to the supposed 30% of people in Utah that don't mind a drink.
I understand why there's a few jabs given my initial half-baked comment but it doesn't take much to see that how you're offering pinball is unsustainable. You must love the game to keep it offered considering how little the profitability is.
In stead of just attacking how you go about how you offer pinball, I'd like to make a suggestion. Events. Pinball events once a fortnight (or month, maybe), it's a niche product that you won't find at the big arcades that you have a strong position in given how many you operate. Makes for an interesting marketing challenge and may help recidivise your customers. Not to mention word-of-mouth can be extremely profitable if you can imprint a positive experience through an event. Maybe different themes or dress-ups or something memorable that breeds exposure through socials.
I'm not saying to use pinball as a loss-leader, just as a means to bring more people in the door. Offer a cheap door-ticket and a communal friendly setting for your customers. Offer a fun and open environment using pinball as a means to do so and you'll see a viable return of your stake in pinball through value added product and exposure. Essentially a hybrid system of cost-per-play in the off time and time-pass method through events.
@@alZiiHardstylez Fair enough - it's my bad presumption that you looked at some other, similar videos where I was tackling related subjects of how operators like myself decide what to buy, how retro video games perform, why keep them (and pinball) around when they don't do very well, and you're missing the complete context of my situation, so that's on me.
I had typed up a long-winded response to this but it was too large to post in YT comments :) Instead of that, I'll look at addressing your points in video form some time this week or next (while addressing some other comments).
I am trying to get some fellow operators to chime in on the subject but unfortunately they tend to treat sharing their numbers like I'm asking for nuke missile launch codes or something. Best I could get for this video was an average of "$200/mo per machine" at a bar in Wisconsin, a state that's kind of the polar opposite of where I'm at in terms of liquor. I did find it interesting that they were making the same in a bar as I was making in a non-drinks arcade, but I certainly need more data to come to any conclusion, including one that may be contrary to what I stated in this video.
As to why I keep games like pins around though, here's a video that provides my logic on that, perhaps you'd call it my excuses & delusions ;), given that there's a similar situation between pins and retro video games: th-cam.com/video/oJH6HeZFkRc/w-d-xo.html
Wow. There are adults that don't know what pinball is.
As much as I enjoy pinball, it doesn't work for me outside the paid admission system. I get way too angry when I launch a ball and it falls between the flippers without my ever getting a chance to hit it.
Man, 8 year ROI before we even talk about repair costs. That hurts.
The local pinball/pinball repair place with it's huge date range of systems has an edge on pinball explaining itself. Early systems were *simple*. A plunger, two buttons, often labeled, and stuff to hit. No crazy distracting art on the field or strobe lights blinding the player. I'm not saying all machines should be that simple, but there should be one "simple" machine in every arcade. One the employee can direct the beginner to. It can still look cool.
One video note: can you leave subtitle text up for about three seconds longer? I don't read quickly and have to back up the video almost every time.
Hi Brian, I'm glad you enjoyed this look at arcades. On the subtitles, those are auto-generated by TH-cam, I'll have to see if there's a way for me to adjust them on my end (otherwise, I'll have to speak slower so they can keep up)
@@arcadeheroes_coinop Sorry, not the CC subtitles. The yellow text like at 14:08. Thank you for sharing.
Nobody goes to the arcade any longer. It’s all about the Barcades. We have a few machines at the local brewery bar. They are older machines from the 90’s and do $500 or more a month. You gotta have food & drinks nowadays. People want to hang out and drink.
I think you hit the nail on the head that for casual players they are intimidating. I know I went to a retro arcade and they had a pinball section, but after a few games I just felt, "Damn I feel like I need to do some intense research into all the rules and strategies to understand what I'm doing in this game, ah I'll go back to Golden Axe"
There's definitely a decent learning curve. Takes some time before you can keep the ball alive enough to start really looking a shots and combinations then even longer for finishing multiple features. It's definitely worth it though, a great feeling once you get it going.
TBF, Golden Axe is a badass game.
I loved whirlwind.
i've seen tons of times pins with credits just because people dont know they are supposed to press the start button.. great video!
Interesting video, I didn't realize some people are so unfamiliar with pinball, but I have mostly played digital versions instead of real physical pinball. One thing I've always wondered: Isn't there a certain amount of unavoidable game-overs in pinball, and how much of that? Like losing a ball every few seconds lol
The challenge is that pinball is a game of skill - I've watched a number of really good players who can keep the ball in play for a very long time, but it is inevitable that you'll lose all three balls. As an intermediate player myself, I've had games that blew by pretty quickly but I've had some where I'm able to keep at least one ball in play for a while.
Part of that can depend on the design - one of the worst I've seen is the newer Star Wars from 2018, where I've watched the ball fall right down the drain upon both launch by hand and the auto-launch the game does. But, pinball fans swear it's an awesome game because of the depth and that it demands the skill of nudging the table at the right time but that's where I think it's terrible for casual players when games do that.
Makes sense that the Addams Family from the 90s would be popular in your establishment. I was a dj in a nightclub in the 90s that had a Addams Family table which I played all the time , I loved it . If I visited your establishment I would definitely sink a lot quarters into the Addams Family table. Thanks for the videos.
loving these arcade business insights. I have 30 machines, eventually ill have enough for my own business. you have really made me think about the costs and benefits of different machines, etc. you have really made me rethink my game buying strategy
I live in Rochester, NY and I casually got into pinball at a barcade, going in Saturday and Sunday when they opened and using all the credits people left on the games from the night before.. One day it turned out there was a tournament and I joined in. I've been heavily hooked ever since and quickly realized how lucky I was in my region. Between hobbyists, location owners etc I was in a pinball OASIS. Between the Museum of Play, the Rochester Pinball Collective and location pins I'm within a 20 mile radius of well over 100 games. I've most likely put enough money into the coin boxes to own one, but I'll never buy one because I know I'd get bored haha with that many options right outside my door.
Check out swillburger in Rochester, its an old church converted to arcade/bar with really good food and lots of pinball tables. Get the spicy fries
One thing I've noticed with games routed near me is that 90s Bally/Williams get the most play, sitting right next to brand new games, and largely from casuals. There's something about them that's just attractive. I'm sure it's hard to replicate the appeal exactly, but I think the combination of cabinet and backglass art, sound design, mechanical toys and light shows, create a charm, novelty and attractiveness on these games that has not been replicated by modern manufacturers. Could be some clues in that old design that modern games could look to for how to make your game stand out and likely to get walked up to.
My Williams/Bally games tend to do all right, although that is a problem - which is odd to say, but here's why. A brand new game shouldn't be earning slightly better than a game that's 20/30 years old (or worse, when an old one outperforms anything new).
Speaking purely from a business perspective, new should be dominating and making enough to cover it's costs and then some. Unfortunately in my situation and from what I've gathered from a few others - this doesn't really happen in practice, apart some occasional exceptions to the rule out there. :/
But to your general point, I agree - a pinball machine should be a marvel. It should surprise and reward the player, keeping them coming back for more. The issue is that often becomes so overwhelming that it doesn't manage to outclass a video game or worse, a simple claw machine.
I dont tust someone who doesnt know what pinball is.
Wow that Space Shuttle pinball brings back memories. I remember playing it was the first time I understood that pinball machines had objectives. Before I was just trying to prevent the ball from going between the flippers lol
I have a Space Shuttle in my 16 pin bank, the third oldest. My oldest being the Scorpion, followed by Black Hole.
never did well with pinball myself as in putting them out on locations. they are fun to play and most people who do get into playing them do love it from what ive seen.
problems being 1. cost of machines, i made more money from a big buck hunter that was donkey years old and it cost a fraction of the pinballs price 2. maintenance 3. difficulty for kids and newer people who play them (very hard for kids to understand how to play them and not end their game in seconds, most of them just double press the flippers and then its the end. whereas say a ticket redemption game most of them are very easy to understand as to what todo and if its a small kid the parent can play with them and help out to score points) 4. people want to win something for nothing hence why ticket games make money cause people walk away with something and have a goal set to it. 5. difficulty to understand the goals of the machine
now how can pinball manufacturers get more casuals into pinball this is hard but there are some things that i think they need todo and update on their machines. thing is do manufacturers even care about the casuals thats another question to be had since they are selling boatloads to collectors and the home market?
I think a good way to get people interested in the game would be that when the game is idle you actually program the table to play like a half decent player using camera tracking on the ball. It could demonstrate techniques repeatedly like timing a ball catch with a flipper, passing the ball from flipper to flipper, etc. Maybe you could even scroll through these (demos). Even more you could actually have a game mode called tutorial mode where the table first shows you a shot and technique and you get three balls to replicate the technique. If you succeed on the first ball you move on to the next challenge with 3 balls still, if you lose all your balls during the tutorial the game is reset. But! If you finish the tutorial you get a free play.
Maybe then you could set up your table to default to tutorial mode and show on the screen in big letters tutorial mode active and just transition to Big letters clearly showing how to switch the mode to standard play. After the game goes idle for a certain designated time out window. Maybe 2 minutes with no input then it resets to tutorial mode. That way new players will be shown right away that it isn't about smacking the flippers simultaneously as fast as you can and there are skills you can actually learn pretty quickly in a controlled practice environment.
Immediately challenging the newcomers misconceptions and presenting them with a new point of view that is intended to grant them a sense of agency with the machines, and encourages them to challenge themselves and stick around. I could see this working for a multitude of psychological reasons. This is why game tutorials exist for other games with steep learning curves. With all the flashing lights and what seems like -at first blush- total chaos waking you in the face when you first approach a pinball table, most people are left expectedly overwhelmed, overestimulated, and wondering what the point is, hardly ever noticing with all those distractions the tiny cards on the table top with size 8 font that explain the rules and objectives in nomenclature that only those who pinball already understand.
Stern does sort of do this now that they have an LCD screen, but it could use a few improvements, particularly sound and using a sensor to detect someone passing by to activate it, plus more details like you suggest. So far though, even though theirs is simpler, I haven't really noticed any casual player pay attention to it (which is why I think that sound would help)
@@arcadeheroes_coinop yeah. People unfamiliar with the representation see a screen in a 2d space and it doesn't feel real and visceral like the table. Mandalorian just draws arowws on the screen. It's not how most people learn, especially beginners. They don't really know what they're looking at or bother to watch it at all. A tactile kinetic tutorial would be game changing I think.
I'm a relatively new pinball enthusiast (played my first tournament in June). One thing I've really enjoyed about my local and regional pinball community is the lack of gatekeeping. People found out I was new and have showed me all kinds of tips, tricks and techniques. Pinball enthusiast seem very eager to share their love with anyone interested. I was directed to a few TH-cam channels showing various ball control techniques and saves that translate to pretty much every game I've played. Once I had an idea of how to control the ball a little, I was completely hooked.
I think about the Stern connect, and wonder if they could add a tutorial aspect to it for new player. You scan a QR code and maybe it takes you to a short rundown of different things you can do in the game (text and picture based, and brief) , and if you are brand new, it could link to very short (no sound needed for noisy arcades) videos on a few basic aiming and ball control techniques that you can watch and quickly. I think that once people realize that even beginners can have some level of control in the game, they will be back for more.
Connecting tables (especially licensed ones) to people's social media in a fun way is also a way to draw a few more people in.
Once a person aims for and hits a few shots, I think many will be hooked. It's just a matter of bringing them to it in the first place. That's the tougher aspect.
Just again I have to say what an excellent & informative series this has been. Almost feel disappointed that it's nearly finished but I think you have did a great job at getting your thoughts & experiences across. Respect 👍
@Arcade Heroes, jeezus... Just where on Earth can you find that many pinball machines all in one place like that? You never see those anymore and I could spend hours if I was there! 👍👍
judging by what i'm seeing on the Pinball category on Twitch live streaming, pinball isn't anywhere close to finished. There are always enthusiasts ready to watch, and chomping at the bit to play the game. If it becomes to expensive and not worth the ROI any longer, then enthusiasts and collectors will still buy them and house them, and use forums to have DIY tourneys and pinball nights, and leagues.
It’s really not nearly finished. Live streaming has breathed new life into the game. As long as there is a Pinball category to subscribe to for live streaming on Twitch, pinball will not die
Very informative video. Thanks! I own 6 pinball machines at the moment and made similar experiences with non-pinball-persons. As you said, they are overwhelmed. 'What do i need to do' ... I'm from Germany an in the 80s and early 90s you could a pinball machine in almost every bar. But today it really is a rarity (i guess partly due to local tax laws and poor maintenance). When you say 'entertainment' nowadays mostly video games and Netflix come to mind. People need to get out their homes and start having fun again. ;-)
Good video. I like your idea about adding a quick optional tutorial video to the on screen displays. Explain that it is a game of skill, you progress by hitting lit shots, who you are playing as in the game, 2-3 early goals to aim for, and that you can win. Save earth and Become kind of the monsters! Etc.
I’ve played a decent amount and I would appreciate this even for new games and even older ones I haven’t played much!
Otherwise, in order to really enjoy a game, you’re going to have to spend a couples hours playing or seek out a TH-cam video.
Things I don't like about modern pinball ? Few machines, except in a dedicated arcade (few of those) or bars (games invariably in terrible shape). Modern games have a steep, long learning curve. That is very spendy, and not enjoyable to go through. And then when you get through it? You've lost interest (because modern games have almost no flow). Whereas I'll love and play Demolition Man until I die. Same with Star Trek: The Next Generation. But Dead Pool, with 10 free credits sitting in it, I wouldn't play once. Ever. Clutter is a disease. Excess/ugly playfield artwork is a HUGE turn off -- e.g. Aerosmith, Dead Pool, Jurassic Park remake and Avengers. Another nasty trend is dozens of constantly flashing lights -- who came up with this idiotic idea?
Now, do you want to know the game I bought and owned, (and played in the arcade by the tens of hours) ...thirty years ago? Spin Out. No modes, no flashing, but some of the best flow. Flow is THE value. Which is why I don't like Adams Family (but do like Whirlwind). My g/f and I also played Space Station by the tens of hours. Modern games have killed flow. It is as simple as that.
I think as times change people need to get together and talk about what can be done to get people to want to play pinball, Pinball needs the thinktank to ramp up some new features that hasn't been done before.
This sucks to hear honestly... I'm really hoping we manage to create a new kind of pinball sensation to really get the younger generation into pinball again. Kinda like how Stranger Things did a lot to popularize D&D for people who didn't otherwise grow up playing it.
I just watched a 30 minute video of you talking passionately about pinball, a subject I haven't put much thought into other than memories of machines I played during my childhood at the game store or the arcade in the run down mall.
Thank you for making this video, it opened my eyes to an entire world I knew existed but didn't expect the size of it to be in modern ages.
Anecdotally, I noticed that the pinball machines are popular with high schoolers. They have played the other games and aren't as impressed by graphics anymore. Also, your money can last a lot longer in pinball compared to other games if you know a few basic strategies like catching the ball and aiming shots. Newbies/kids just bang the buttons to keep the ball moving.
modern pinball machine would break, no way they can withstand 500-plays a week, Led Zeppelin needs rubbers every 10th game, Rick Morty is a constant struggle to keep working, cheaply made
A big drawback for me was never bing able to see what was going on in the table for all the reflections in the glass. As a kid especially, your viewing anbgle makes it hard to see a lot of the props inside. I never understood why they didnt use anti-reflective glass.
Pinball always seems to just be a sad little lonely corner whenever I go to an Arcade, it's sad more people don't play, but it just means more open machines and high scores for me LOL. These machines are such mechanical wonders, and if you get really good at pinball you can pretty much play forever. I'd really love to one day have a Physically Built Space Cadet Pinball that's a replica of the old Windows XP/Vista game. I absolutely loved that "Machine", for being something so old and seemingly insignificant, that cabinet design from a digital pinball game lives rent free in my mind to this day.
NachosAllDay24/7
I'm shocked how low the $ amounts are. I'm not shocked that modern games are not as popular as older games. No flow in modern games. Way way way too complicated. Just don't feel like pinball, to be honest.
Pinball is a game played by regulars. Would be great if pinball was as popular as it was in the past. There is a lot more competition in personal entertainment. Maybe we have to install ticket mechanism / redemption options.
Both Stern and Jersey Jack tried ticket redemption, gave them a bit of fanfare, then quietly removed mention of them anywhere since they were huge flops. It does seem that much has been tried but it's a difficult nut to crack
I use to run arcades from 1981 to 1997. From 1998 to now all my machines, and pinball machines are stacked neatly in my property storage. I find it amazing how much my old money makers are going for now. Especially the Retro full arcade machines. I get offers on my original Donkey Kong's, that are crazy. "but" like all my old 1980's stuff it's hard to get rid of. As for Pinball I've only had offers on 3 of my machines. "Pinbot still in it's box" "KISS" and my Williams Hyperball" I remember the pinball days, very profitable. Moving them around was a pain when all we had was 2 ford Astro's. Drop all the seats, and you might be able to fit 2 inside folded up. When I saw Genesis and Nintendo, with Sony buying up Software rights. I knew the Arcade days were coming to a end. Kids will chose to stay in their rooms to play these games on a tv, or a "486 computer". It was at this time I watched the books drop every 3 months.
With no company's left over from the Arcade days, the retro games are super expensive. Many of these dead company's, also sold the Rom rights for home systems to make pro pinball video games. I found a video game with all William's/Stern/Bally's/Gottlieb/Data East/. So you could say in a way They destroyed themselves out of the business, by selling rights away while still in the arcade making business. Now you can barely get a kid to leave his room for anything. "they have them hooked on the games, but from their own home. Our business requires them to leave the house. So in 2021-2022 your only going to get the retro players from the old arcade days. You hope they bring their kids with them.. While in the 1980's parents used arcades as baby sitters, they sent the kid there with 20$ and picked them up later. When we ran Mall Chains, i never seen parents in the arcades. The arcade was a day care center, we had food/music/prizes/tournament's. we had a random wheel spin every 3hrs, it had ever game in the room on the wheel. We would spin it till we hit with someone playing the game, and give them free 5$ in tokens. Sure miss the old days :( {but I don't miss fixing flipper coils , Williams made a fortune on Coils lol}
That's why I'm so grateful emulation is a thing, otherwise I'd never get play all the lesser know classic games. I was 10 in 1985, and I'm transported back in time every time I open up LaunchBox.
And yes, you are right about the arcades being used as day car centers back then. Times where different back then. It was way safer to be a kid, and hang out out kid places in the mid 80's. As long as we stayed out of trouble, we would play till the arcade closed.
Now a days, children (even teens) aren't safe anymore. Even in their own schools!! 😏
@@arcademania7544 Back in the 80's it only cost 1,500$ to 3,200$ for a machine. We earned that back in 2-4 months .I was sadden when i saw my old Arcade distributor go out of business in California.
"good old C.A. Robinson"
Thanks to man caves and collectors, the cost of these machines are through the roof. People are willing to pay top Dollar and more just to have their childhood alive in their house/garage. 1up got in on the mini cabinet design, to get in on the profit. I think the mini 1up games run a emulator if I'm not mistaking. "something called Jamm I think"
While most people use Advanced Mame for their PC. If this guy holds on, i think the arcades will come back. Right now the home systems are having big problems with Functional games. Top 3 programing company's are having issues releasing games that are not complete anymore. While arcade machines have to be tested beyond anything, before they are allowed to be sold. If this trend keeps up, i see arcades picking up by 20%. If i was to open a arcade today, i would get involved with the Schools and Grades. setup a tiny reward system to get the kids back into the Game rooms. We have their parents already, but that's not enough to run a arcade today. You Have to get the kids out of their bed rooms, just a hour or two :).
Thanks for sharing Lisa
@@BootsORiley :) Even if you don't make enough money to float a arcade. The machines are the best investment right now. There're a lot people that are willing to pay over market value for them. Even if you paid retail price for them. I was at 2 actions and at one of them they paid up a Atari 720 degree to 1500$. The machine was not even working lol. The last 11yrs I've been putting together machines, and I took up another hobby of collections. Sense I live in Nevada, I've been buying up old Video poker machines from 1990 to 2005.
@@lisamaitland157 wow, 1,500 for an Atari 720..
I was born in 83, so arcades were still a thing when I was a kid, but they’d already seen their apex with the NES being the more popular thing. I could play video games longer, so I could get better on home systems and I didn’t need quarters for every attempt. I still loved the beat em up 4 players games like The Simpson’s and TMNT, to this day I think it’s just the absolute best. But I was better while sitting down with a D pad controller 🤷🏼♂️
I’m just a pinball enthusiast. Love the game and sport of it SO much. I’m from one of the poorest states in the US, and I’m not from horse money, so owning a single machine seems impossible to me. If it weren’t for on location sites, I’d never be able to play. In fact, from about ‘07 - a few months ago, I wasn’t able to play pinball in Lexington where I lived after the UK Wildcat Arcade closed.
Since a great new venue (Tilty Bob’s) opened, my passion for the game has reignited and more firey than ever before
I'm going to guess really well? Why? I have a Vpin i just got a couple months back, and the newness wore off... and i still play it way more than my multicade which is completely custom, gorgeous, top quality everything. Pinball is addicting in a almost primal way. Man v Machine. I guess you can say the same about arcade games but idk... something keeps me coming back to slap that silver ball around every day.
Interesting reading comments from people who avoided pinball for years, i guess i did that too... not until i got a job working overnight alone that had a pinball table did i break through that original feeling of "wow i suck at this and am actually wasting my money" i had more time to learn how to cradle, pass and aim etc, etc... but yeah at first people just randomly hit the ball around until it drains in less than 2 minutes and lose interest.
.50 cents a game seemed reasonable to me when i was bored out of my mind at 2am and the Pinball machine in the corner is flashing. So i guess it's probably harder for people to break into pinball than arcade games but pinball seems to get into your head more if you're past the casual level.
Pinball is kinda like pool, you can play and have some fun, but once you learn the angles and different shots... THAT is when the game really begins.
Too many new machines being released, and most of them lack the charm and personality of vintage tables.
the complexity and the cost vs play time always turned me off. I wonder if you would get more if you could lower the price
AND after you are done earning money, you can sell the machine for purchase price if not more!
Maybe the manufacturers could show players via the huge display screens. They may be able to show the customers how to play and complete the features.
Dialed In did have the cool feature of a player camera; It would take pictures of the player and their score along with other things like selfie multiball. It was also able to detect movement in front of the machine to respond with sound. It was a great idea that was well implemented and should be done in all pins, but I think it failed with DI because that theme was confusing as to what on earth was going on (made no sense to the casual player how you'd start and it would say "Here's your new phone!" then start doing things like monster attacks, meteor strikes and power management. It needed to have a more coherent story presented within the game itself instead of leaving that to a non-narrated segment during the attract mode or a comic book that no one ever read)
Is that per month?
I wish it was but sadly, those numbers were for the year :/ If they were monthly, then I wouldn't have a dour outlook on pins
I wonder if the problem with pinball is it has no attract mode, well obviously it has shiny lights, but it's like fruit machines without the promise of money. Most arcade machines show you the game to entice you in, but pinball has no demo mode. If it launched a ball and hit some targets, caught a ball, hit a ramp and triggered a multi-ball, I wonder if more would try it. I know none of this is easy to do repeatedly and reliably, although also wondering if any pinball manufacturer has ever tried this before.
That's a very interesting thought, I only wonder if it would be difficult to implement consistently? Something to ask a pinball engineer (although if pinball started using augmented reality or projection mapping, you could have a virtual overlay showing such a demo)
@@arcadeheroes_coinop Yes, I think the consistency would be the difficult part. There is so much haptic feedback on a machine it feels like this is what needs to attract people. I guess some of this could be solved with teaching an AI to play simple games. 🤔
I think pinball is way to complicated now
I totally agree with you on the idea to make the pinball game easier to understand... everything gets lost in the sweeping color changing RGB leds - it would be nice if the machine somehow knew you never played this game before.. like if it knows you have the ball captured by the flipper and you are looking for a shot, it would only light the shot you need to it with directions on the screen (but be smart enough to not do this all the time to not get annoying). I'd say 90% of pins I play I dont understand what to do or what to hit next to get multiball. Or I could be an idiot also, hahaha
Commenting from a year into the future. You make a very valid point. Pin games have gotten so intimidating for new players. I am just getting back into pin after more than 25 years. The games of today have so much going on that it's hard to even try them out. I download the rule sheet for "Rush" forget that little card on the machine, this one is a book and it's 10 pages long. It's not a game you can play by just walking up to it and dropping in a quarter. Playing one of these game without knowing what to shoot for or even knowing how to shoot can easily end the game in under a minute. Nothing is more frustrating than paying for a game and then not getting any kind a fun from the experience.
I don't want to tell you how to run your business, I'm sure you've tried everything, but here are a couple thoughts I had. One thing I thought that might help is to make the last ball an automatic multi-ball. I think The Beatles does this. This way, even if you have a shitty game or you are completely new to pinball, you'll still have a great time with multi-ball for 30 seconds or so at least once a game. Another thing to do is to try a get more people to try out the games. If you serve food, maybe giving 3 or 4 free games with the purchase of a meal might get people to play. If they just try out the game, I think many people will find the game a fun challenge.
If pinball is going to make a resurgence, then they have to make the games simpler to play and, for lack of a better term, easier.
The idea of the final ball always being a multi-ball is pretty cool - if that were an option on pins, I'd try it. Only problem is capturing those who don't stick around past ball 1 or 2, but you can't win them all over.
Totally agree. I think Pins expect players to know the basics before they start playing. If you drop a coin in and just start flipping like mad, your game will be over in no time. But bother to learn rulesets (even something as basic as reading the hints from the display or aiming for flashing shots) and maybe some pinball techniques (post passes, slap saves etc.) and it changes the experience. But of course that requires more effort from an arcader. Casual players may have no interest in doing that; they just want to drop a coin and be entertained with relatively minimal effort. I remember watching something about Mortal Kombat recently (I think it was Ed Boon) that said everyone should be able to make it past the first round - basically to 'get their money's worth'. By comparison, pinball can be absolutely brutal in that regard. Having a nightmare game where you lose 3 balls in under a minute (with an obligatory STDM) reminds me of how coin-ops like Defender initially put people off because of their difficulty; they expected gamers to figure stuff out for themselves. But I guess like most arcade titles from the 80s/90s, they were designed to extract money. As you suggested, modern 'home/console' games have the time to build in tutorials, introduce mechanics and basically help the player get the most from the game. It's a luxury that coin ops and pinball tables don't have.
Newer coin-ops have been addressing this with the controversial "time to die" meter, which is mainly used in Raw Thrills games. The general default is 2 1/2 minutes before the player can really start taking damage while in racing games it's being unable to have your car locked into a crash (you hit the side, it just keeps on moving, always have auto-gas). But yeah...there's not really a way to do that with pinball, unless they had raised bumper for the first minute (I suppose I could put ball saves much higher - I tend to have them a few seconds above default)
@@arcadeheroes_coinop Ball Saves are probably the easiest way to do this, Adam. It's a safety net for novice players. Better players won't need them so they shouldn't impact their high level game so much. Thinking about it, SEGA did this on Space Harrier, didn't they? Stage 1 had a timer and infinite lives. Wasn't always switched on though IIRC.
@@paulbrennan208 It's as perfect as we can probably get, although it's still imperfect; One other issue we've often observed is that new players don't realize that they get three turns and walk away once the first ball drains. Then of course you have some poor designs like 2018 Star Wars which can drain both your launched & saved ball almost immediately, which really just tells casuals to 'go away'
@@arcadeheroes_coinop Walk away after the first ball drains? Man - kids today.
@@paulbrennan208 Yep *plays sad trombone* Sometimes we catch it and let them know but not always.
Sounds like a flatrate/freeplay model would make more money than the current solution. Also helps beginners to get into pinball, without wasting too much money and building up a new audience that way.
A new player is much more likely to pay $10-20 for 2-3 hours than $1-$2 for every short game.
Maybe combine that with some introduction courses 1-2x per month.
That is addressed in the other video I did about this. Freeplay model is just for making more money off alcohol, pins don't make ROI off it and what I rely on, new games, is where the money is at, not pinball. It's just nice to have around and for running tournaments
If you want pinball to do well on location, you have to promote it in the form of competitive tournaments and leagues. That is the way.
Come to Northern Virginia / DC / MD area and go to Ocelot, Mustang Sally, Lost Rhino, Carpool, Mom's, Spinners, or Lyman's on any league or tournament night. Carpool, to name just one, has over 40 people who show up every Monday night for league play. Ocelot is the same, and their league night is Tuesdays. That's in addition to normal walk-in traffic and regulars. Additionally, these league and tournament players start showing up far more often to practice so they can do well at the next event.
Run leagues and tournaments. It'll take off.
It is good advice - We do run leagues and tournaments and have been for some time (tournament earnings included in the numbers I shared in the video, which I should have pointed out) :) It's the only thing really keeping it afloat but it still way underperforms video or prize machines. :/
Unfortunately the size of the local community is limited - they already hold their own tournaments & leagues on the side, so that pulls from it too. But hopefully with some other ideas we'll be able to increase that a little but nothing I've found from talking with other operators (including alcohol) puts pinball on the same ROI/earnings footing as other arcade products. Hopefully that can change in the future though but I think it requires that pinball itself needs to do things a little differently for the noobs. Otherwise it's not going to ever grow outside of the niche it still occupies.
There are 4 arcades at the beach near me. I only bring my kids to the one with pinball. I put maybe $2-$3 in it and another $50-$60 in the drivers, shooters, and cranes. That's the value in pinball. Without it they'd have got $0 from me.
You really need to hear a pin to understand what is going on with new machines, thats why it is more fun to play at home.
That is what I mentioned in both this and the follow-up video - "indirect income." That's why I still value it - the issue is that pinball itself struggles to cover its own costs, which is a problem as prices on machines have risen considerably. At least we have old machines...sometimes those earn as well or better than brand new ones.
This is one of the things i miss the most...
I don’t understand how locations can make money with these kinds of returns. 10% return at best annually for a product that needs a lot of ongoing maintenance. I guess the locations make money selling drinks, food, etc.?
Food & drinks certainly can help however, that's tough too.
I was recently talking numbers with a brand new bar/arcade that opened in the same city as my former 2nd location (he opened in Oct. '22). He had something around 30 pins, then a few classic vids, skeeball, a couple of newer games. His games overall raked in more than I'd ever seen in a month, his drinks pulled in roughly the same - but he was complaining about how little profit he could make from it (that alcohol distributors are the ones who *really* make bank, more than the producers).
The problem for him is that even making 5-6x as much money a month as I was making w/o drinks, his costs were also astronomically higher (rent alone was a little over 4x as much as mine; his wage costs 10x higher, etc.). Still, he was in the black.
Overall, pinball definitely has to be subsidized by something else as it just doesn't earn on its own. In the case of bars the drinks help in part by themselves and by bringing people in and keeping them playing; In my case w/o food/drink, my newer video games pick up the slack.
Just an idea, but why not advertise a Pinball and Pizza day for families and beginners and have some volunteers on hand to give demonstrations of the games and how to play them (super simple explanations) and then people can watch and then have a go at the table. Rinse and repeat throughout the day. Another idea is to shoot on your TH-cam channel some simple walkthroughs of playing a game using your machines at a location and post on TH-cam. Then put a 3D barcode on or near the machine you recorded, which people can scan with their phones to learn how to play the game.
We've had a local player do a teaching day/team building exercise recently (after he saw this video) which was like that; I could give it a try but it is very difficult to attract the attention of locals here. The most frustrating thing I've discovered about social media & small business is that I have a lot of people who live nowhere near me follow my posts - some are even overseas! So what I rely on for day-to-day business is mainly random foot traffic in the mall.
Unfortunately a lot of those people only make the visit once in a blue moon, outside of a few regulars. This is what has proven as a challenge for us to organize our own special events and tournaments (we've done things like you suggest with other treats before to celebrate our biz anniversary but no one came for that, they just happened to be in the mall). Still, I am considering giving it a try or a happy hour sort of thing...I just don't know that it would be worth the expense of all the free food and sometimes it can be very difficult to run a training course while having to manage the rest of the arcade too. I could hire someone to be a pinball teacher but it's also dubious that it'd be ultimately worth the expense. Guess it might not hurt to try once...
I hope you feel my question is relevant; but my question is.. How would a VP machine do at a location like this or is it totally against the rules to have on the Premises b/c of agreements with your vendors, would they feel like you were counterfeiting. to give a player the opportunity to play a version of their Ghostbusters; when you have the real deal.
If the tables were licensed then there would be no issue although its hard to say if it would perform well. VPs have been out there before but they don't seem to move the needle much, one example is Pinball FX2. One tested at Dave & Busters for a time ND they had promised a commercial version but it was ultimately canceled, which means it didn't earn well. Why? Might be a similar issue I've observed with other multi-games. The more content, the more confusing it gets for the average consumer which ends up not earning. I think a single VP can work though but I imagine that it wouldn't earn any better than a normal pin might, unless something really different was done for the video side
Where are regular arcades still a thing? I mean arcades still exist here in NYC but they've shifted into 'family fun centers' i.e basically chuck e cheese. Claw games and such
Apart from my two locations, there plenty of places still haven't switched over to CECs. For me to list them all out would bust the character limit here; Instead check Aurcade.com and they list out places all over the world (of various types)
Pinball. Since the early 70s we skated 20 blocks to find the best. It has always been THE game.
And the answer is there's skill involved. Today everyone's into the lottery. Pinball can only take me a dollar or two if I'm on. Normally less. Im why yoir moneys less. Thx for the games. .
12:40 location location location. You need a bunch of extroverts in your area. Some places are full of homebodies and other places are full of people who go out and play games.
Maybe you can put some of your machines in areas that serve alcohol and have outgoing people who spend money on something other than xbox gamerpass for their gaming entertainment.
Thanks for the comment - I do address that in this video expanding on the reasons - th-cam.com/video/GS207d-3wsk/w-d-xo.html
Long story short, while there are bar/arcades in Utah where I'm at, the local culture (fewer interested people in alcohol, strict alcohol laws, high population of young people) really isn't conducive to the traditional logic that bars+pinball=success. I do agree that there are areas in the world (West Coast US, Chicago) where pins allegedly outperform in the rest of the country but I've yet to be able to land some solid numbers.
That said, so far from what I've been able to discover from talking with other ops who do operate pins in a bar environment, the pins *still* don't make all that much money, but drinks do fine, so it seems that pinball is better for improving alcohol sales rather than it being the other way around. :/
If the games aren’t getting play, lower the price on off-hours. Nobody is going to drop a dollar for thee balls where they don’t even know how to play the table.
I am considering trying a happy hour thing but most games are already 50¢ to start and use the bonus buy-in feature. Sometimes offering too much for free doesn't "hook" people either (for fans, sure, but not so much for noobs, it seems)
Are you holding tournaments? A league or monthly tournament will definitely boost those kinda sad numbers.
Yep, those numbers were with monthly leagues/tournies that have been supported by a local pinball group (ranging from about 8-20 people)
TH-cam just served this up to me through my algorithm. This is an amazing deep dive into the finances. Hard to believe that kids now have parents that don't know what pinball is. Can you comment to the physical maintenance of the tables? I thought that I had heard that physically keeping a table up and playable was a sizable variable in the equation on having tables.
Yeah, I should have discussed that in more detail. Generally speaking, newer tables haven't required much while the older ones can eat into their earnings. Fortunately replacement parts are common but if a game is only making $1000 or less a year (or less) and you have to spend $100~ on parts, that ends up being a detriment. I'm always grateful when it's just a fuse or a broken wire as those are easy to fix, but when it's a board issue, then it can be a pain.
Along those lines, mods have had little effect on improving earnings, be it extra toys, toppers or ColorDMD.
Sadly, pinball is generally propped up by the better earning games in the business, or tournaments might bring in enough to help cover maintenance and parts for a time.
The Space Shuttle pinball machine by Williams was instrumental in saving the pinball industry in the mid 1980s. I have a Space Shuttle pin in my bank of 16. Originally, I had bought Space Shuttle, Meteor, and Spanish Eyes from a Boys Club back in 1995, all for $300. Meteor was in real bad condition, back glass and cabinet, and playfield rated 2 out of ten, electronics 3. Eventually, I parted it out. Space Shuttle cabinet and back glass a 8
Playfield and electronics a 3, plastics badly damaged, with a $1000 can be brought back. Spanish Eyes was a 7, cleaned up and sold for $350.
were these earnings monthly or for the year? I may have missed it and cannot see it in the video when scrolling thru.
They are for the entire year (which makes it sad)
What an interesting video
Ya right, kids don't know what the hell pinnies are or how to play them these days. Shit, I'd barely played for 20yrs (or more lol) and played a few of the new Sterns recently and they were a bit confusing to me, even after reading the rules. Like what the hell is the big button on the lock down bar for? That never used to be there (lol). But most of em kinda walk ya through what shot ya need to aim for next. It's usually just a matter of a few games to work the table out a bit. And covid might not of been good for operators but it certainly sent the price of machines sky rocketing as everyone wanted one for the lock downs. Lookin at buyin my first pin and apparently I shoulda been lookin a few years ago. The prices are a bit bloody silly down here in Aus now. 😕
The reason why people put money into a pinball game not knowing what it is. Is the flashing lights and artwork and sounds they make. People will think you put money in and the machine will do something cool and/ or dispense something.
Having worked in arcades back in the 1990's. A good way we got people to play pinball is to get more foot traffic to their area. Move a pinball machine or all of them close to the shop counter. So it gets seen. Casually leave a free credit on the machine and go to a group of customers who are watching someone playing the Daytona USA or Sega Rally driving game about the free credit. If they say they don't know how to play, tell them what do. Do this if there is nobody playing pinball. Hype the machines too. Like a Pinball Happy Hour of free play. That works for teaching customers to play pinball.
With the rise of Pinball in Bars. Some customers may associate the games with drinking culture and less a family amusement / entertainment. Which may put them off.
Here are my thoughts:
1. Pinball, with its flashy lights and noises, visually resembles true slot machines and ticket dispensing games. However, with slots and many ticket machines, you put a token in, press one button, and things happen. When players don't get that instant gratification with pinball, they lose interest if they don't understand how to play.
2. There is a whole generation that was brought up on the extremely simple Space Cadet for Windows 98. Real pinball tables with a myriad of modes, skill shots, twisty wire ramps, etc. is confusing, and of course, far more difficult.
3. The story elements are hard to to visualize in pinball. In a regular video game, you know when your weapon is fully charged when the Weapon Charge bar is full. In pinball, visualizing hitting a spinner multiple times to charge a weapon is harder. In a video game, players know that a boss is coming to get them because they see the boss racing toward them. In pinball, sometimes the only obvious way to know that a boss is coming to get you is hearing a voice from the speakers saying "I am coming to get you!"
I'm 40 now, I love pinball, I enjoy playing vintage machines. I understand the gambling stuff where they can't pay out, but why couldn't they pay out tickets? I believe there would be more interested parties to give that high score screen a go if there was a reward for kicking butt! I, myself would swipe the skeeball slot before before the pinball machines because I can use skills to win physical rewards vs. just the mental reward of initials on the screen.
Sadly I think most people see pinballs as an curiosity from the past and prefer videogames because it feels more modern/current to them.
Have you tried lowering the price and/or giving more balls? I wonder if people would be more receptive knowing they won't last just ten seconds.
I miss arcades awwwwwe
They need to get back to a more simple way of the 90’s Williams pinball style,like Funhouse,Road Show, and T3
I guess I'm one of the few new Pinball enthusiasts that got into Pinball already knowing what Pinball was. My issue was not knowing what on earth to do growing up, but the digital version of Pinball Arcade having details on what everything did got me into it, and now I'm hoping to own some tables someday of my favorites. Now when I go into an arade with any of the tables that I got familiar with thanks to the Pinball Arcade digital game, I want to play them since I know what I'm doing and get to experience them in person. My biggest concern is finding the replacement parts for the machines that I would want, mostly from the 1900s and early 2000s.
@Phraseblaster said back in the day there were machines everywhere like in bars and restaurants like pizza joints. Some places may have had a small arcade with a few machines. Today, I know of only 1 pinball machine in the entire town, which is 90s model that isn't great to play from lack of maintenance. This is Fish Tales in a gun shop so I guess that doesn't really count, since it's probably a novelty to the sporting goods store. In my area there is nowhere to play for pinball fans let alone bringing in new people. My regret is that back in the day I was into arcade games rather than pinball, so didn't play much. Now I'm into video game versions of pinball tables.
What killed pinball for me was when they went from 5 balls per game and only a quarter to 3 balls per game and 50 cents or more. Also setting the game play to the hardest settings with the lowest scoring options was also a killer for me.
My dad had an arcade in the 1980's until about 1992 and I played pinball like a rabid animal even in the arcades when I had to pay for the games. I used to go to Cleveland with him to pick out new games and I was always checking out the pinball games. Still to this day my favorite was Hyperball since I figured out how to get huge scores on it. I would teach others how to score big and they would end up playing it a lot more since I showed them what to do.
The majority of the games today are so complicated to get the multi-ball and other score increasing targets. The more complicated the scoring the less people will play more than a couple times. Even the computer versions are tough to get good scores on because of the complicated scoring system.
I own several machines so I do play alot but if I do go somewhere that has machines to play, yea I'll go with them. Now to me, I think a big problem is just how expensive these things are getting. When you could get a pin for 3-4k in the past, now you are having to drop at least 8-9k on average it feels like to get the proper feel of the whole thing since even with lower priced Pro stern stuff, you feel like you aren't getting the complete game or it's much simplified... you want the moving mechs and all the unique goodies. The other part, is the cost to play. I'm old so I feel like it's just me but when I walk up to a new machine and see $1 to play, I always cringe. I still have the mind set of 25-50 cents a game from my childhood so when I see the prices on newer machines I tend to step back. I feel this isn't just me, as spending time at various arcades I see folks all at the older games, the 90's stuff that still is only 50 cents but are classics getting all the love. While the new sterns that are set to $1 or so to play, not being touched or rarely getting play. I know my money typically goes to the older cheaper games cause I feel I get more play time and value overall. I love the new machines, but I rather my money go to where I feel I'm getting my value. So you got expensive new machines and also high price tags to play, I feel it's both fighting against each other. And of course pinball is not so easy to just leave and collect as so much can go wrong, balls get stuck, stuff breaks, they need lot of tending too so theres additional work and money that goes into them. I imagine machines going down is another factor in some cases for pins not earning also. The two local big arcades that focus on pinball even here tend to have a good chunk of them down for repairs or in a state of needing an attendant to come fix something like a stuck ball.
The problem is that there's less people going to arcades now. When computers appeared people started playing computer games at home. These days the home based PC games are advanced, have multiplayer, and in some cases even in virtual reality. Back before 1984 I would go to arcades regularly and they'd be packed full of people, but after I got my computer in 84 I'd hardly go at all. These days I pass arcades and they're mostly empty. Less people in arcades means less money for pinball machines, and the more Video games there are in the same space the less attention the pinball machines get. Also back before I had computer games at home I would spend hours in an arcade, but now if I'm at a movie cinema I may play a game or two of pinball but that's it. Thus the question is less about whether pinballs are still a money earner than whether arcades are still a money earner.
I like to describe pinball to new people as a video game with 3 lives. Maybe better than a baseball analogy? Before I got to know pinball better, I did get frustrated with a few games that were set a little harder than they needed to be. I'd say unless you're running a tournament, put these guys on easy mode, with generous ball saves. Definitely makes for a more enjoyable beginner experience. If it turns off your regular pinball guys, have certain days or times when they're set differently. Other ideas: have a pinball workshop night for newbies. Have a special featured game each month where you post rules for the game and discount the price to a quarter for the month. (A lot of times the rules cards are printed too small and are hard to read in a dark arcade!) The numbers on your Addams Family machine indicates to me that most of your patrons are experienced pinball players, or at least know that Addams Family is a good game. I would think that new players would be attracted to more recent IP, like the Mandalorian (which IMO is not as good a game as Addams).
Another idea is to tap the wallets of the tournament players by charging an admission fee for their game night. Bowlers would support the venue because they can’t bowl at home. Pinball players leech the space by only showing up for the tournaments. Seems unfair to me just saying.
Also just a note: a bar in my area used his pandemic small business grant to buy 10 brand new Stern LEs. I dunno how ethical that is...but that's what they did.
I’m sorry to hear that pinball isn’t doing so well with the average arcade goer. I’ve been a casual player of pinball over my life. Pinbot will always get a play or two from me. Always hear The Who song when I get nostalgic for some of these machines. However, its more the classics of the 60s and 70s era that I’m likely to play. To me, these are pinball machines. I will admit, these newer machines are interesting but, intimidating. I’d be more interested in playing them if I saw someone else play it first so I could get a feel for the machine.
It does great IF they’re properly maintained. We have a crew of 5 at the best pinball arcade in Dallas and we work full shifts repairing them every day.
There are multiple other arcades in DFW that simply have the machines, and so long they turn on, that’s all that matters.
The reason we have so many regulars is due to our emphasis on keeping them clean and fully operational. Plus they take care of us really well $$
ooof, trading Stranger Things Prem for a Mando is a bad bad trade.
I got 4 games in the whole trade so it wasn't just a Mando for ST ;) I doubt the whole value of reselling what I got is less than an ST
Pinball is in a weird headspace for me. I'll happily do a freeplay night at the local barcade but that's pretty much it. If I have to toss a dollar into the machine for less than a minute of play, I'm just not satisfied. Digital pinball has also tipped the scales somewhat as the simulations and emulations have gotten much better over the years.