How to find a shorted coil on a Ford 5.4 engine (misfire diagnosis)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
- How to troubleshoot a bad coil on a coil over plug system, using a scope and a low amp probe. There are other ways to isolate the problem. You can move the suspect coil to another cylinder and see if the misfire code moves with the coil. But this test is not always reliable.
Symptoms
- misfire
- hesitation
- check engine light with misfire codes
- low power
Fix
- replace shorted ignition coil
Tests shown
- how to measure ignition coil current from the fuse box
- how to sync the coil patterns to identify specific cylinders
- how to set up a lab scope for ignition coil primary current tests
- what a shorted coil secondary waveform looks like
Tools used
- Lab Scope
- Scan Tool
- Low amp probe
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Playlist
- (Chapter 22) No Spark Troubleshooting, Ignition Coil & Module Testing
• (Chapter 22) No Spark ...
For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
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Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC.
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Here I am almost 6 years later getting a refresher. Time flies when your having fun!
nothing wrong with that my friend
this is so cool the things you can learn about a vehicle from the fuse box . i used it at work and now i dont need anyone to turn the key for me. power and grounds are easily seen. low amp probe for high amp use works on voltage setting. wow this is the wave of the future and you have to get in on it or become a second rate parts throwing technician. other people cant explain things in detail and that is why your videos are jam packed with info.time is money dont waste it.the future is exciting.
20 years field experience with 12 years teaching the subject. Truthfully when you teach something you learn more about the subject than you ever would in the field. So combine continued field work with teaching and it is a win/win situation.
Clear, concise, correct.
Perfect video.😎 Thanks for sharing your vast array of hard earned knowledge.
Thank you!
No the Verus doesn't need an attenuator.
I think the only time you would want to worry about voltage spikes over 400 on the primary would be with an aftermarket MSD ignition system.
Thanks for your comment and support!
I was wondering about that last time i check some coils with the snap on it said you attenuator
You are so brilliant.....I know that anyone can learn this but at the stage you are at you just seem so brilliant. You are a trend setter for the automotive technician that wants to be the best. Thank You for putting your videos out there for all of us to see. I am doing my best to remember all of the different testing procedures that you do. It takes awhile because we don't get to see the same problem occur over and over again. There are so many things in between. Thanks Paul.
Robert, thank you so much! I'm not brilliant, I just love what I do and I love to teach :-) Thank you for watching and please subscribe if you haven't already. Have a great evening.
Ah a true technician! I hope you are paid well my friend! Not just another parts changer!
I actually had one of these last week but the problem was a voltage leak in the boots not in the ramp. I was working on a 5.4 4valve in a navigator and the coils were a pain to get to.
I managed to get TID 53 to pick up the misfires after a few test drives.
As always Danner is the man...
Nice work, a refresher, I remember now that a ramp wave is also used for old TV flyback transformer. Ramps are ideal for producing secondary high voltage
Only primary current on the three and four wire coils with the built in transistor. Primary voltage (coil negative) is internal and cannot be viewed. (3or4 wire coils)
Great question!
That coil waveform you're saying is bad is what every cylinder on my car looks like! Lol,and my car runs perfectly!!
I just bought a little Smart Car 1.1 3 cylinder as my 'test' car.I also bought a Pico signal probe for the cop ignition on the car,that's useless too,can't get any waveform at all!!
I've got all the waveforms in my head but nothing i test looks like the haha.Not an encouraging start to my diagnosing career.
The old Verus classic has been a great learning tool though till i can afford something more up to date.;-)
A very FAST way to find the trouble!!! Thanks Bro'!! I have used this a few times on Ford Vans and it takes a lot of the 'Fun" out of burning and cutting your Hands working on Ford Vans with c.o.p and finding the miss fires!!
Awesome! I was looking at the waveforms on pico and was wondering why my 5.4 had the three spikes for the ignition. Now i know that it's a muti strike system.
I remember watching this video about 7 years ago and having absolutely no idea what the hell was going on and pretty much figured it didn’t matter anyway since I would never own a lab scope lol.
🤣🤣 nice one Matt
thank you once again ..that is exactly what i'am going to do next to the ford f150 i did not get to use the pico and i'am dying to use it....you really give us small guys the biggest ego ..like we can achieve anything ...you rock cant wait for the class
Thank you!
Thanks for the comment!
Hi Paul, I had a good case study yesterday on an 01 Ford F-150 with the 5.4 V8, single cylinder dead miss and trouble codes cleared haha. Anyways, did your exact procedure scoping the current ramps from the fuse box and sync off a coil neg. control on cyl1. Indeed, one coil did look different from the others. All three ramps were even, with some turn-on oscillations (the other "good" coils showed a sharp straight-up rise on the second and third ramps). However, looking at the coil neg. voltage, I could NOT see a spark line or any secondary turn-off oscillations on the bad coil, compared to the good ones.
I almost jumped the gun and called a bad (open or shorted?) secondary winding, but after pulling the coil out and seeing a very strong spark out of the boot, turned out that spark plug was internally open!! With a new plug, the current/voltage waveforms looked identical to the other coils and the truck ran like new.
I have your ebook, but have not found very clear explanations of all the scenarios of COP ignition faults just looking at primary current and neg. control voltage...I definitely need more practice looking at these waveforms and thinking about all the variables that would cause them. This is a very exciting field for sure!
I'm with you my friend. Email me and I'll send you a picture of one I found recently on a Ford cop. You'll like it
@jacobnbr11 Thanks Jacob!
And you are correct in that a leaking boot will not always show in a primary ramp. So that is the downside to this type of testing. There is still a need to monitor the secondary side at times for sure.
@Bushougoma I'm not sure, and you are correct, I don't think they make them yet. I just did a search and cannot find them either.
I haven't tried using my mini tester in that newer style yet
If the misfire is constant the first thing I would do is to determine which cylinder it is by performing the scanner powerbalance test or unplug each coil one at a time and listen for RPM drops. Fords are known for mis-identifying which cylinder is misfiring especially on high milage engines with a lot of timing chain slack. So don't completely trust the code for which cylinder it is.
nice vid Paul.
I like the Expedition coil/ECM video for the huge amount of information presented, but this one summarizes better.
Great information as always, thank you
Excellent Video. I am a autobody Tech, but love learning this shit just for fun. Great job on your videos.!!
Thank you!
Thank you for your kinds words
@MrGtech777 I would think so. I am not familiar with that scope but I've even used an old school analog scope to view some waveforms. I would think any scope is better than no scope.
Your videos are very informative. Thanks a lot.
Kick ass tip!! I would definitely use out in field .Thanx
If I'm not mistaken, as you would need to with compression tests or injectors- using that 1st cylinder is known as a sync? A method to keep track of which cylinder firing based on its firing order.
Synced with ignition, not injection and I have many other videos showing how this is done. Thanks!
I used the same method on nissan quest and the scope only shows me only the pattern of the coil where its hooked it up
hi paul, its a great video. tanks you for show me how fix this problem
thanks for watching!
Different from what? Car to car? There are similarities and differences. The key is to take pictures of known good ones so you have a point of reference.
Real easy fix,replace the coil.The Ford triton engines with the COP eat coils like candy.
thanks for the info, greatly appreciated!
Why does the 2nd and 3rd strike rise so quickly instead of ramping continuously like the first strike?
Is there any way to get this mode 6, and the next screen which shows each cylinder misfire count, on a program like Forscan on a laptop? I can’t afford one of these nice scan tools as much as i’d love it and use it. I’m trying to find a misfire under load, on a 2008 5.4, no codes, my misfire counter definitely jumps up. Just can’t afford to throw all 8 coils and plugs right now, since I’m not gonna replace them with the cheap eBay $40 for all 8 coils garbage.
i have a 03 intrepid 2.7 litre with 3 coil over plugs that arent firing unless i move them to another cylinder. i have 13 volts at all wires but cant figure out how to test negative wire to ecm for a break or short. i was told that the ecm was bad if i had voltage at the ecm connector. i am a super fan of your videos and cant figure out how to test negative wire for a break or short. i know youre probably very busy but could you lead me to a video or tell me how to instructions please
Hi Paul, on a primary and secondary ignition, the spike or amp ramp be always different?
So essentially with a ignition misfire with a cop system, I am looking for the coil's current waveform that looks different from the rest. Then I will have to inspect the spark from the coil and inspect the spark plugs. I'm just thinking of those v6 cop where you have to remove the intake manifold to remove a spark plug. Do I have to remove the coil for testing, or it can be diagnosed from the fuse box?
Good video but I think you should have explained a little more in detail on what the drive cycle stategy monitors requirements
Hey danner. I got 2003 expedition 5.4. I got p0320. And when im driving around 70 mph im losing current on cylinders 6 5 4 8. But just for 3 seconds then goes back to works fine . I post a picture of the wave form on the forum but I haven’t had lucky to get any advice. Thank you
@sheriffgolden whats a parts "sealer"
recreating this test on a new project, 02 Ford E350 5.4L. Have miss on two cylinders from codes. But I cleared and now tring to narrow the COP swap versus the plug on those two cylinders. Test should tell me exactly if the same cylinders show the misfire. Plugs are at life, I think it may be the plug, not coil. But 100% of public says it's always the coil. I have Verus, ordered the AES wave loop for the AES wave amp clamp and have my results saved. Just can't quite make sense of what I have gathered. I see the no. 1 triple spike pattern on my yellow, and the green is showing my amp clamp. I have amp on the no. 1 posts. That is confusing. Why wouldn't colors be reversed? You are focused on the triple spike of even height on that bad no. 4. Are you opening up that amp pattern to see that?
Let's move this to my forum www.scannerdanner.com
It is free to join and we can definitely help you. I have 28k global members and hand picked moderators who've been with me for years and know my material inside and out and are there to help me help you guys. It is just too difficult to offer back and forth messages here on TH-cam with stuff like this and we also can't share pictures and images here like we can on the website. Hope to see you there!
great info and tutorial thank's boss.
Paul do you have multiple books ? Or is it just one book about all your engine diagnostics and teachings with the scope, multimeter etc...
excellent
This may be a dumb question...but can this test be done when a system uses the same fuse for powering the coils AND injectors? 05 Ford freestyle 3.0 is the subject.. 3 of the coils and all of the injectors are unfmder the plenum...
Yes, but it sort of makes the waveforms difficult to interpret at times.
@@ScannerDanner yeah that's where im at. Its seemingly impossible to decipher the pattern.
on the u scope from aeswave since it's a 1 channel scope can u sync the silinder u choose save it and then put ur amp probe on the amperage to determine this scenario or is the u scope no good for this scenario?
Just get a Waekon/Matco Auto Wave with a secondary ignition pickup tool, WAY cheaper than a Verus and much much faster to identify a bad coil.
I LOVE my autowave! I rank it up there with a Power Probe in usefulness.
+Dirty D can you post a link for us please? It may go to spam but I'll unlock it when I see it. Thanks!
It won't let me copy a link. It's on youtube, just look up Matco MD Autowave
Hers a link for your viewers. Hope it helps.
www.matcotools.com/catalog/product/MDAUTOWAVE/auto-signal-waveform-viewer/
Hi Mr Danner. I put a link in the comment reply to you. Please check your youtube spam folder. I did this to help viewers who may be interested.
Another invaluable tool I have recently discovered is the Flir C2 Thermal Imaging camera. It blows the Snap-On unit out of the water and allows me to diagnose what cylinder the misfire/dead cylinder is on without even touching the vehicle.
Very very useful, just a bit pricey though. I got mine for free though, I traded a rifle that was given to me for it.
Thank you god bless you
On 5.4 2v is it possible to have bad or weak coils and not throw a code?
would a power/cylinder balance test tell me the same if I didn't have a expensive scanner like yours? Thanks
I wish I had a scanner like that.I have a 2004 f150 5.4 3v with 99k miles on truck But only 6000 on a new ford motor.I ended up after 5k miles with a stumlbe at idle or while driving it has new plugs I rechecked them,just replaced all 8 coils does the same thing could it be a injector ?? the check engine light comes on with P0430. please help im going crazy.oh and I am a 20+ year mechanic also thx scannerdanner for your videos
What is that fused cable the plugs in to the fuse box called and where can I get one? Thanks
Paul, i know this is an old video, but is it ok to connect to a coil like this with a vantage pro? Its rated for 200 volts, but i know it can get to around 400 on the firing line. Im just worried about killing my tool... Maybe an atenuator you could suggest? Thanks for all you do for us man you really help us out.
OK Mr Danner.I will accept that I can not see voltage ,so current ramping it is.
Thank you
Scanner!~ i have the 1998 expedition with the lean codes. i have two questions~ I overtightned screw on coil on plug # 6 and it snapped off,and for the time being, i have old rubber coil boot wedged between fuel rail and coil. ist question do you have a idea how i can remove that broken screw so i can properly secure coil~ ? and would this give me the symptoms i having i told you about getting theses codes p1152,p1132 and p0153,causing rich condition? i sae new exp using sheet metal screws.
Spark plug gap closed all the way may give the same scope image on that coil.
+Kristof Van Den Elshout sure will and it's a case study I have on my premium channel I think. But yes, thanks for your input!
So is the green for primary and yellow for secondary?
ScannerDanner, I need your directives in figuring out a problem. I pressure washed my Crown Vic engine and it was running fine as I did the washing. Initially I had p0351, P0352, P0353, P0355, P0356, P0357 and a MAP code which I forgot. However after driving 1/4 mile to Advance, I only got P0356. I have 12 volts present in the power source at the coil. Also, I tested for a switching signal (via a led), which I saw. I later replaced the coil. However, I still have the code and the misfire
I'll have to go back I watch it, I don't remember. I know there were at least two coils I didn't like, possibly three.
Thanks soooo much for your reply. I do not have a scanner to do a power balance test. So now, what do you advise me to do?
Is it possible to Id the cylinder this way when doing a relative compression test with a low amp probe? I know fords kill the injectors , but would this work?
absolutely.
Paul, I've been studying Ignition waveforms. Should I see a turn off oscillation on a good sec. coil/spark plug or on a bad one?
are you talking about primary ignition current? If so, turn off oscillations are not always visible, but an open plug wire will certainly give you a big tail.
Primary current waveforms will not show you all secondary issues. Only some.
ScannerDanner Ok, so they'll become more evident by reading voltage instead?
yes sir, when you can of course
Couldn't you just clamp on each coil, one by one and then compare the pictures? Sure your way is faster but in theory, do you think my idea would work?
And u didn't even have to snap the throttle on this one. 👌
I enjoyed your book so much and it has so much info. I am on the second time around. I noticed you use an attenuators on the pico scope. Do you worry about frying you Verus when some voltages spike over 400 volts. Aeswave makes a primary lead set for measuring over 400 vollts. Would you recommend it and for lap scope purposes. Do you prefer pico or snap on more. Thanks for everything.
Excellent video
In comparison to your Lexus RX 300 with 4 wire coil which you used Vantage in a same way,(thanks to you I know now that Lexus has the ICM built in coil), in that video ,channel 2 was set for 12v and PCM square wave was 5v to ground.My question is that is it possible to see the primary voltage signal(like in this ford 2 wire) with burn time and turn off oscillation with 3 or 4 wire coil?
Thank you for a wonderful video
will a single cylinder misfire cause a no start?
Another amazing video, and yes for ur info I checked w my snap on guy and the verus scanner is listed at 10k ✌️
Hello, I am repairman here in Brazil, what kind of equipment you use, Verus?
good video!
awesome vid! what low amp probe are you using? I see it's a snap-on,what is the part number?
+Joe Ripoll It is a Snap-on one but this one will do the same thing for you.
www.aeswave.com/Current-Probe-Low-range-Generic-brand-p8486.html
Same one I use with my Picoscope without the name and it will work on any scope or DMM. If you need a BNC cable end, they have those too.
+ScannerDanner
could you run me through the connections set up, between the amp clamp and the scanner? I see at the top of the scanner there black and red cables connected, what is the yellow cable connected to?
thanks again for responding,I really appreciate all your work/posts...
+Joe Ripoll I was using two channel for this video. The amp clamp is just a positive and negative lead to any DMM or scope. Inductive amp clamps produce a small VOLTAGE (not amperage) that is proportional to the magnetic field of the wire you connect it to. The magnetic field is proportional to the current flow.
The amp clamp again, produces voltage that when connected to a scope with proper scaling will indicate amperage but is really just a converted voltage.
In other words, if you set this amp clamp to a 20 amp setting and connected it to a regular DMM on a voltage scale, then clamp it around a wire that has 10 amps of current flowing through it, your DMM would show 1 volt. Make sense?
+ScannerDanner
Yes,I'm getting it, very cool way of doing it. I want to try this test with a friend who has a s-on solus pro or modus pro,not sue which one,but it has the scope function and DMM built into it, and he's currently working on a for f250 with a misfire,and no codes. I'll forward him this video and take it from there.Thanks!!
+Joe Ripoll no problem, thank you!
Awesome, I will have to try that out, I must first talk my boss into buying the low amp probe for out verus.
I was also wondering if there is a way to find a bad coil, or plug on a newer Volvo with a scope. It has 4 wires going to the could, I believe they have built in transducers.
I'm just beginning to start using the scope.
yep, watch this
How to Test a 4-wire C.O.P Ignition Coil
Awesome thanks. I will subscribe to your premium channel as soon as I absorb what I can from the free one.
I wish you were local I'd love some hands on scope lessons.
Hobo Hack
no problem, there is a lot here so have fun with it and thanks for your support!
ScannerDanner, is it possible to do this test without using the low amp probe?
Nope, I'm measuring coil primary current flow
Do you cover primary and secondary testing in your book?
Yes I do
power balance test on 8 cyl is not usually conclusive IMO.
What about 8
Is Nr 8 OK ?
I used to fix TV when they used to be have CRT. For a screen
Great video man! I was wondering. Can you catch a misfire that's non ignition related, injector, low compression...... Etc. by scoping the primary ignition feed like you did in this video? Thanks again.
+Jaime Solorio you can see those in the primary voltage waveform as it mirrors the secondary but you will not see them in a primary current ramp test.
How often do you need to use more than two channels on your scope?
not often but there are time where you would absolutely need more than 2
@@ScannerDanner For an example? And what would be the best scope for that scenario?
Identifying a Shifted crank gear keyway on an RX 330.
In cylinder psi waveform synced with an ignition event and cam and crank waveform. Used all 4 channels.
Picoscope automotive 4 channel by far!
@sheriffgolden Typical parts changer mentality.
mode 6 - 53 on my 98 taurus shows components $01 up to $09. It is 6 cyl so how does it go to 9? $06 to $09 show "values" of 109- 495. Trying to get a better understanding of this. Appreciate your work and insight !!!!!!!!!!!
ecm may be able to handle a 10 cyl. if nothing is misfiring, it's ok
Same process for a 256?
Paul. Do you think a bad cam lube. Will trough a po301. On 2000 ford expedition 5.4
Alredy dis injector swap -- coil swap.... i check the injector wiring with the power prove 4 and they all good
For sure. Check compression pressures next
ScannerDanner i did a compression test with the gauge.
I did on cylinder 1 and cylinder 5
They bought the same. 150 psi
I did i head job like 6 months ago. Because i got a misfire on cylinder 1 but was the head gascket . So i put everything new. The shop rebuid the head too.
Have you ever heard of a COP causing a P0720 O.S.S. circuit, stall in drive, O.D. light flashing?
No but a faulty alternator yes. I have a video on this.
Output speed sensor. Ensure alternator is producing power.
No a misfire will not cause rich codes
They make what's called a fuse buddy they sell them on most tool trucks
Want to piss off a Technician, clear your codes and ask them to figure out what’s wrong with your car
Interesante
I'll tell you how to find it. Just look for the number 4 cylinder
I'm an electrical engineer not a parts sealer home slice
Yes a fluke meter will work with a 2 channel
Just replace them all! WTF
on the u scope from aeswave since it's a 1 channel scope can u sync the silinder u choose save it and then put ur amp probe on the amperage to determine this scenario or is the u scope no good for this scenario?
+Jesse Ruiz you would definitely need a 2 channel scope to do the same test. But, with just the amp clamp you could identify the faulty waveform and just unplug coils until that particular waveform went bye bye.
Hello, I am repairman here in Brazil, what kind of equipment you use, Verus?