Let's Discuss: Hard Vs Soft Magic Systems
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
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Soft magic systems definitely have a sense of mysticism that’s hard to achieve with a well defined hard magic system, but it is so much harder to do a good soft magic system because it has a tendency to be a deus ex machina
I disagree, you can achieve a good sense of mysticism with hard magic systems without too much difficulty, if they’re made logically. We don’t know everything that there is to know about science, and we’re constantly finding new and creative ways to use what we do know about science to invent new things. It should be the same with magic, you have the building blocks but the possibilities are still limitless, and there should still be certain aspects that aren’t known.
@@bimlauyomashitobi421 It takes a very talented writer to achieve that, and I have not found anyone that did, but Michael Moorcock came pretty close with combinating quantum mechanics and magic.
That's why in something like LOTR none of the main characters even have significant magical abilities. It's people like Gandalf and the elves who help the heroes but don't do the work for them.
@@writingwofl5836 It’s really not that hard. Maybe you find it difficult but for the average world builder it really isn’t.
@@yagrumbargan9427 JG Keely: In science things are often mysterious and surprising, but not randomly so. The same inexplicable results come up again and again, so that it's clear that there is some kind of structure behind it all, only the scientist can't figure out what the pattern is, or how to predict it.
It's taken some of the most creative minds in history mankind to suss out these patterns and make sense of them--the kind of mind that comes along perhaps once in a generation. Now, scientists have the benefit of there actually being a pattern out there for them to discover. A writer trying to develop a magic system does not have this benefit, they have to create it from whole cloth.
Creating a magic system that possesses both the strange unpredictability and the sense of an underlying pattern that science has would require a level of creativity and mastery that only a handful of thinkers in the history of mankind have ever possessed. So, while it's an interesting idea, I don't think it's a realistic goal for a writer to take on. I've certainly never read a fantasy novel that even came near to succeeding.
So I dont think its that "easy".
I think both sides have their pros and cons, it generally just depends on how the rest of the world is built and how that magic system fits inside it. My introduction to magic systems was Avatar, it sits more toward the hard side of the scale, but its also easy enough to understand because of the concepts. Sun = fire, moon = water, eclipe = no fire, etc. Rules like that are very accesible so bending is a great introduction into magic systems.
This is not about magic systems, but I wanted to say I really love how you have incorporated manga into your videos. These different fandoms (fantasy/scifi/anime/manga) can be so insular when the reality is that there are far more similarities than differences in how the stories are told. You incorporate your discussions of anime and manga as though they are just more fantasy stories in your repitoir and I think that is really cool and makes me more interested in the novels you discuss (as more of a manga fan myself).
Dude yes! I always say this. It’s glad to see people gravitate more towards this mindset
Didn't notice that, but you're right! I'm used to have a certain segregation between Anime/Manga and "classic", written literature in the form of books.
I thought that a common mindset? Am I live in different universe or something haha. No hate, I just feels confused if this thing really need appreciation, because for me it's just so normal as how normal is: sky = blue, fire = hot.
@@valhatan3907 well actually there’s a debate about whether people always saw the sky as blue
Manga/anime is fine, but I hope to see some Western comics as well such as Sandman and Birthright.
I heard a critic once say that the fantasy books before Tolkien used magic as something mysterious and that effected the world in every way, and it was used to explore interesting and thought provoking ideas to learn more about humanity, but that now in the majority of fantasy books magic is only used as a problem solving technique, to only serve the plot. I read some of his recommendations, and I have to agree.
I've love to know what books those were! I generally prefer softer magic and I love the exploration of thought provoking themes
@@readingwithrebeccanicole Here is the link of his recommendations: starsbeetlesandfools.blogspot.com/2012/06/suggested-readings-in-fantasy.html
And btw, he has a very specific taste so dont look at his dissapointed list, cuz a lot of your favourite books will be there.
but this dude dislikes Discworld, it speaks badly about his taste tho - as well as understanding Wheel of Time only as poor rewrite of Tolkien's work. Totally missed the point.
To not be stubborn or hotheaded - I know and enjoy some of his recommendations as examples of excellent fantasy, which makes me even more irratated that he lacks understanding of Pratchett's work. What a dude lol.
@@TheLastAxeman Yeah, while I dont agree with some of his reviews, I think he offers an interesting perspective and some great recommendations.
Hahaha, I knew it had to be J G Keely. The guy is very smart and eloquent and I like reading his reviews but he is stuborn in a way that just ends up making him close-minded and arrogant instead. Also, his critique of magic is weird because he likes Perdido Street Station, which I also love because it is cool and weird and all those things, and the main character there is basically a mad scientist whose field of science is magic.
I think people often forget that soft magic systems aren’t defined by the rules that they have. They are only defined by how much the audience/characters know about them. Therefore, one could have a hard magic system that strict rules and limitations and then not explain those rules and limitations to the audience, thus preserving the mysticism of a soft magic system while still getting the benefits of consistency and dependency of a hard magic system. While many authors have there books start out this way, I find that many of them have a scene later on in the story where the mentor character explains the magic to them. The best way, I think, to do this is to have the focal point of the narrative be around someone who doesn’t use the magic and doesn’t know how it works. I’ve also seen/heard from many people that soft magic systems are often excuses to do a deus ex machina. I believe, however, that there are ways to make that not so. ASOIAF, for example. While I have only limited knowledge on the story and plot (most of it absorbed through pop culture osmosis). I was under the impression that magic there is often based on sacrifice and often unreliable. In that case, the unreliability of the magic serves an asset to the writer and not an obstacle. So yeah… I guess that’s my 5 minutes ranting about how soft magic systems are underrated…
The problem with that is that if the reader doesn't know the rules, or at least have some intuition for them (I haven't read a lot of stuff where the rules are completely laid out anyway), it can still feel like a deus ex machina if someone uses magic to solve some problem when the reader doesn't know that they could do that, and couldn't have come to that conclusion themselves. Like, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't see that as getting many of the benefits of a hard magic system.
That is why the kind of magic system depends on the point of view character.
Take Star Trek vs. Star Wars, for example. Magic and technology are the same from a storytelling perspective.
The characters in Star Wars are criminals and soldiers, so Star Wars has a soft technology system. Star Trek characters are scientists and engineers, so Star Trek has a hard technology system.
@@sashaboydcom Of course it can, but that's why most books with soft magic systems don't use magic in this way.
As a fan of many stories that use "soft magic", it winds me up that a lot of the complaints directed at it come down to moaning that it's not very good at fulfilling a narrative purpose it was never designed for.
They're often stories where magic is the means that allow characters to understand who they are, where they fit into the world or help them along some other kind of character arc. They can be used to present problems and it's up to the characters to use what they have to figure out a solution. How the magic used to make Sophie into an old woman in Howl's Moving Castle functions is never explained because in the context of the story it simply doesn't matter. In a Sword and Sorcery book I read recently, it doesn't matter that the heroes have no idea what fuels an Ice Demon's magic, they just understand enough that fire will harm it.
And in those last two examples, implementing hard magic systems into those stories would have made those stories much worse, because it's adding extra details that kill the pacing for information that is both unnecessary and demystifies the world in an uninteresting way. But I'm not going to use that to say hard magic systems are bad, because these are stories this kind of system was never designed for. So please, please, PLEASE have the courtesy to make the same consideration of our much maligned soft systems.
As with any part of a story, the mechanics should bend to the story you're trying to tell. Hell, some stories mix the two. I used to be a big fan of Fighting Fantasy gamebooks, and a couple of their stories did this. As your magic was used to solve problems, you knew what your limited arrangements of spells did, how many you could use and what their boundaries and weaknesses were. The enemies were more mysterious, were not bound by these rules, and you just had to figure out how to use your tools to overcome them. People arrange it as one Vs the other but this is an example of how they can coexist. Sci-fi often has similar elements, where we understand the limits of our protagonists' technology, but encounter the unknowable and they have to figure out how to use what they have to overcome/survive this new entity.
Can’t talk about magic system without mentioning HxH. The Nen system is so flexible but complex. It makes it so that all their powers are unique to their uses and in a way helps, CHARACTERIZE the user. Like Gon’s Enhancer Nen lets us know he’s straightforward and simple lad or like Hisoka’s Bungee Gum expresses his trickster-esque personality and ingenuity with it.
Hisoka`s bungee gum also explains important things like that the ability has the properties of both rubber and gum
@@c.w.sgermzy oh how could i forget 🫢
Nen is great, Hisokas power especially but a system like JoJo’s Stands is far more versatile and creative. Feels like Nen is almost sometimes like stands.
Nen is literally Togashi trying to get the benefits of Power level systems (soft magic), and Stand powers (hard magic) and somehow managing to do it well (with a bit of bullshit here and there)
@Owais Zubair id say hard. Because its the most complex power system in manga to date. There’s different rules and limits. Any character can stand toe to toe with any character if they are creative with their powers. I especially like the your nen will get stronger if you sacrifice something
I prefer hybrid magic system that lean a little more towards soft magic systems. It has enough rules, but allows for enough unpredictability for me to show a world of wonder. If the magic system is “too hard” then it just feels more like a science and takes the spirituality out of magic that I enjoy so much.
Yeah, kinda like Dresden files. Still enough rules to make sense, but not too much that you lose the sense of mysticism.
@owaiszubair6563 Nen is a hard magic system
I love how a soft magic system flavors a world and makes it feel ancient and lived in, but I also love when characters use the rules of a hard magic system to their advantage, showing the depth of the magic system's rules and how clever/talented the characters are.
I personally think that if magic was real, it would lean more towards the harder side of the spectrum, or rather we would make it hard. Simply because there're already natural or social forces that are bigger than us here on earth and that at first we tended to view as mysteries, but the more we looked at them the more we learned about those forces and created sciences. And if magic was real there woul 100% be people who would dedicate their lives to discovering rules on which it operates.
Yeah I am surprised that people would think if magic was real it would lean soft. I think if magic was real it would just be another field of science
@@Vermbraunt true
@@Vermbraunt Science do follow hard immutable rules but on its periphery, science do get interpreted in ways that are much closer to soft magic than hard magic does.
Consider quantum physics for instance, the basic quantum mechanics are hard magic. Entanglement is the way they are is immutable, bell inequalities proved that beyond doubt. But then, there are element in quantum physics that took different interpretation in periphery. There are some who believed in Supersymmetry interpretation, string theory interpretation or Modified Newtonian mechanics to resolve the apparent dichotomy between gravity and the rest of physics. This differing interpretation for rules felt like soft magic, imo. Maybe if magic was real it would be a hybrid of several immutable rules followed by soft magic in its periphery.
"If magic was real" you say, as if we don't live in a world where ethereal energy flows through crystalline wires, allowing us to make lights without flame, sense the invisible or the distant, predict the future, communicate over any distance, and thinking machines. We have trapped lightning in a bottle, and think it is not magic.
I doubt it. There's a reason why we call magic "magic". If it was something that science could decipher then it would just be a subject under science just like everything else. Magic is supposed to be mythical and something you cannot easily put your finger on from how I see it. You can comprehend it a bit to see where it outlines but the realizing its rules would be another story. Of course, if magic existed in our era, there's no way it would just be soft alone but we would make it more complicated like all the other things. So I think it would be a bit of both, hard magic and soft.
One of my favorite magic systems is the one in the Fate series (technically in the Type Moon/Nasuverse but we). All the different magic systems are powered by 'Mystery' which basically means that the more people know about a particular spell, ritual or school of magecraft, the less effective it becomes. So you end up with a bunch of magic systems that are 'hard' for their users but gain power with how 'soft' they appear to be. This leads to a lot of interesting situations, like people whose jobs consists of gaslighting 'civilians' who witness magecraft; mages trying to spread misinformation about commonly used rituals; or families deciding which child of that generation is going to gain knowledge about the family's magecraft .
One of my favorite uses of the system is when one of the characters really hates when a certain ritual is used on her so she decides to use a large scale spell to destroy an entire city. Causing that much destruction would basically alert the entire world of the existence of myths and magic and destroy all 'Mystery' associated with the ritual she hates, rendering it useless.
I would say the coolest thing about the nasuverse magic are the abilities
Like mystic eyes of death perception or UBW
I never though the Nasuverse would ever gain mention here, since it's literally my 2nd favorite magic systems after Nen. One thing I really liked about the magecraft in general is that it is soft yet it is very hard when it comes to limitations of who can learn magic the magic in general its like every family has their very own magic system of specializations, like in the case of the Tohasakas Jewel magecraft, Makiri's insect magecraft, Animusphere's Astromancy magecraft, and even something that is very niche and mundane Projection magic of Shirou. Most of the magic system can only be inherited to one person through a family magic crest, since that is how you can actually capitalize most of it's power and dividing the crest while theoretically possible would only hinder the family magic system itself on advancing.
Also something that I would like to add on is that the idea of the more Mysterious the nature of the magic is, the more powerful it is, breaking through the system of magecraft it becoming 'True Magic' like in the case of the Kaleidoscope, and Heaven's feel, one way to attain it is to reach the Root of the universe
I can't remember the name of the series sadly the person who recommended it to me has since died it may have actually been a book he wrote. But the magic and science system was based purely on belief. In the story a battalion of soldiers from our world get transported to this world and their vehicles and weapons run on pure belief but as they get demoralized their weapons and machines start breaking down and they can't figure out why. I really need to figure out the name of the series. The author friend of mine that told me about it was Doug Dandridge it may be one of his published books but I'm not sure.
I've been playing around with the idea of hard vs soft magic. Built out a world where the "magic" has certain things known about it that are agreed on...but most of it how it works is still debated. It's got a few different schools of thought about how it works that is hotly debated almost academically. I like to think it makes it more interesting and "realisitc" in that regard. Get a bit of both in there.
Oh, I like that idea
Yea, but you’ve got to watch out and make sure it doesn’t feel like you’re pulling stuff out of nowhere.
I’m working within those same rules with my own fiction. I have found that a good way of striking a balance is to have consistent rules for the magic that you never break but also never explain. “Show, don’t tell” basically.
Personally I prefer soft. I feel like the lack of rules is what makes it magical. It can be used in unique and thematically appropriate ways. Preferably the magic should be somewhat invisible and hard to pin down. The book Krabat has place where if you try to run away you get lost and end up where you started. I see the risk of it generating cheap ways to drive the plot along but that stuff happens in stories with no magic and is caused by bad writing.
Krabat does not lack rules, the point of view characters just don't know the rules.
Obviously the miller knows his apprentices can not run away, so there are rules.
This type of videos is how I discovered your channel so I'm glad to see more content like this.
Another great amalgamation of hard and soft magic systems would probably be Arcane. It is basically a soft magic system, but the characters within the story try to make it a hard system by studying it and combining it with technology.
My favorite not mentioned soft magic system would probably be Ancient Magus' Bride simply because of how beautiful and terrifying it is portrayed at the same time. Also it's a great read and an even better watch (one of the best adaptations I've seen in recent years). It just feels like a Ghibli world, without being from Ghibli. Also: Stockholm syndrome.
Arcane is so interesting because the technology is also a soft science fiction- nothing about the magic or tech is explained to the audience, which allows the creators to do basically anything!
I recently bought the Mistborn series thanks to you! I'm so excited to read it!
Tangentially related thought, I really enjoy in hard magic systems when a character appears that uses magic in unconventional ways because they haven’t been formally trained enough to be locked into the world’s rules and we and the other characters come to understand that the world operates on a much softer system than initially believed and we know far less about it than we thought
Yes the soft magic of LoTR is so beautiful. Especially poignant for me was Galadriel giving the phial of the light of the brightest star most favored by the elves and that may it guide him in the darkest places. This helped me through some very terrible times because I understood it to mean one’s own hope, will or even innocence. To keep it safe and showing bright even when life throws you into what you deem unsurmountable. Light is such a metaphysical construct in our reality so much can be extrapolated from this gift to Frodo, something I think in the end was just a token to reinforce something already alive in Frodo. When Shelob daughter of Ungoliant (lol love saying that) appears it says the darkness took the shape of a huge spider and the phial of ligh helped him. If anything this can be read as the evils of life surrounding you as Shelob is technically the darkness and not just a big ol spider.
Exactly. Often, soft magic is a metaphor for a concept, often embodying the themes of a story. Hard magic on the other hand, is more tangible because rather than being a metaphor, it is a tool, used by the characters to solve problems. It doesn't represent anything, just as gravity doesn't represent anything.
Nen of HunterXHunter is one of my favorites hard magic system.
Edit: Morel's deep purple is one of the examples of how a creative person can make something basic, op.
Its really not as hard aspeople think, itsboth really. Alluka isnt really hard. Or someother things, through it has a good basis. Its more a mix really.
Its more its a hard system that leaves plenty soft magic within it, for a cost most of the time.
He he is good at integrating it but soft magic in the hard.
@@marocat4749 it wouldn't be hard if you also have her nen reserve. You can't have her powers no matter how many restrictions you have if you don't have nen reserves like Ai does.
“Deep purple”
@@heartofvanillaice7443 ?
I'd call nen a hard magic system with a warm gooey center.
Happy to see you are going to read FMA, its such a good manga. Also thanks for the video 🙏
I think, the skill of a writer plays a big role here, a great soft magic system is definitely 100x harder to weave a story with. But as long as a magic system fits well in the world and have a relevance in the plot and doesn't seem weird and out of place, I personally don't have a preference. It also comes down to what readers excpect and desire to experience. For me, I enjoy understanding of how magic works, but I also love it when a writer skillfully shows his ability to write a soft magic system in his story, and I also don't want my magic system to feel like a tedious rpg mechanic. There must be a balance in the spectrum of magic system, which I like to call the goldilock zone of magic systems. Every great storywriter knows how to find that goldilock zone of magic systems that fits their story
I think Tamora Pierce's magic system in the Circle of Magic series is one of my favourite magic systems and very unique in that it ambient magic users need to learn a skill or craft to understand and use their magic. Think it falls between hard vs soft magic systems too.
Neither is intrinsically better, but one will fit better into any given story.
For example, if you want to tell a story about a group of hikers that find themselves fighting for their lives when they discover the forrest they're hiking through is haunted, using a soft magic system would help sell a feeling of being overwhelmed. Meanwhile, a hard magic system would lend itself more to a story where the hikers survive because they keep calm and think through the problem.
I love reading either, but there is a favorite one for me. It is soft & here is my personal reason (that most people probably don't have the issue with).
If you give me the pieces, any pieces, I figured it out. Mystborn, half way into the first book I knew the magic systems end. Even with the last books add ons. I knew it waaayyyy to early to enjoy the magic system as something to explore. I liked how it worked and read, all the same.
Give me something I couldn't figure out and I will enjoy the reveal much better. It is why I like any Homes novel vs Needful Things for mystery. If I have the pieces I jump to the end too fast.
Nice exploration and production.
To comment seriously, I've honestly never really thought about a difference between magic systems in terms of this kind of categorization. Your channel is the first time I've seen it discussed, but this video really does a good job explaining it, now I get the differences for sure and will try to keep my eye out more for what systems fall into which category.
Your let's discuss videos are some of my favorites for sure :)
One way of thinking about hard vs. soft magic systems is with music. Hard magic is where you want to learn how to read sheet music for a particular song and maybe start to mess around with the song now that you understand how it works. Soft magic, on the other hand, is where you just listen to the song and let it take you; no trying to decode it, just have fun with the experience and enjoy the fact it exists. Watch "The Genius of John Williams" (the reason I'm thinking musically) here on TH-cam to get both simultaneously and it blows your mind.
My personal favorite hard magic system is from Shadow of the Conqueror, by Shad M Brooks. Shad trades ideas back and forth with Brandon Sanderson. He also info dumps sometimes but it's from the point of view of someone who got their powers on accident and is learning through experimentation.
It's very difficult and painful each time they learn a new application of the same basic power, but rewarding for both the character and the reader so the new abilities and techniques definitely feel earned.
One of the best hard magic system is full metal alchemist. They always follow the rules when using the magic system and you can try to exceed the rules but the price is big
Today i just wanted to say i love u and your channel. Have a good day Merph 😁❤️🇵🇹
FMA is coming soon! I'm so happy Merphy keeps digging deeper and deeper into manga
Yeah, she has a looong way to go, a lot to discover, a brand new world.
Didn't she already read it?
My favorite magic systems are when I can feel myself inside the world and understand it and break it down. I like soft magic systems (at least as soft as Avatar) for leniency and ease but not as soft as Fairy Tail where people use magic however. Mushoku Tensei is also another example of hard magic systems that can be used flashily but also broken down.
I prefer when it can be used easily but broken down if need be, I love the option
Can’t mention hard systems without giving a shout out to my favourite: Stands from JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure. The stands reflect the users personality and are really unique. The users have to get creative with their powers and limitations and find the other users weakness. Every fight is like a puzzle and I LOVE IT!
Oohhh if she ready jojos my dreams would be fullfilled
She will know the stands first in HXH, if you know what I mean xD
How are stands a hard system? They are all random abilities that can be and do anything Araki wants and don't obey any general rules or limitations but the rules or limitations Araki has specifically put in a specific ability for it to be exploited if it even has them.
Like the only system thing in the whole series is the relationship between physical strength/distance, and I don't think it's even fully followed and even if it is it barely ever matters in the context of the abilities that he comes up with.
Stands are one of the biggest soft systems out there, they can be and do whatever the author comes up with.
@@byrcust1858 There are some pretty defined rules to stands. Your stand reflect your personality in some way, hence different powers but There are a lot that are similar to each other. You are either born with a stand that awakens or get it from the stand arrow. If you are not suitable then you die from the arrow. Long range stand or short range stand, long range being weaker in close combat and vice versa for short range. Defeating the stand and you defeat the user or vice versa. Ordinary people can’t see stands but can see the effects of a stand. Even the arrow has an explaination to it, a weird one sure, but the origin of stands is explained. Unlike say Harry Potter were wizards can do magic because they are wizards (unexplained genetics basically). Stand users are drawn to other stand users, which explains why they often find themselves in conflicts. Using the stand takes up stamina so it’s not limitless (like One Piece were you can spam your powers or Harry Potter were there is no limit to the magic as long as you say the right word).
And every stand has it’s limitations and rules. You can then use the limitations in creative ways. It’s almost like small hard magic systems for each individual power, so I don’t think it’s fair to not call it hard due to the powers being different.
Take Josukes stand; he can fix things - the pieces of an object/person return to make the object whole. But can’t fix himself. And that Josuke can never heal himself, that is a hard rule on his powers.
He can use this to his advantage though as the force is so strong in the pull when objects are fixed, that it can be used to drag himself away (like a piece of the street stuck in his shoulder that wants to return to it’s original place).
Many of the fights wouldn’t work without the hard rules being set. If you know a persons stand then you can see what is possible for them to do and the solution to a fight has to be within the possibilites for that stand. If Josuke for example could just heal himself out of nowhere then that would be breaking the rules.
The range stuff is mentioned quite often as another example, like with Star Platinum and how enemies try to stay out of it’s range.
It’s not as hard as say FMA, (which also has random powers with it’s own limitations) but I would still define stands as a hard magic system. Might have missed some stuff but you get the gist.
@@byrcust1858 on the one side yes, in terms of character creation the possibilities are almost endless. But after the character is established it's a super hard system. Take Sticky Fingers for example. It can make zippers anywhere and make "pocket dimensions" and it can punch medium hard. Thats it. Unless you're a main character (caugh same stand as me caugh) the stands abilities wont evolve or change. With nen, ki, chakra, wand-magic you have the options of learning mlre, not with stands. You have your stand and thats it. (Excluding the arrow)
I love hard magic systems, 'cause it's fun to figure out how they can use their powers. You articulated it perfectly.
💜⚡️
I really like to use transmutation magic as a panic bottom, in other words, magic that allows you to change what things are made, without changing it's shape, as a last resort, as it need to be very precise, if not you can make things worse
Are you planning to read 'Atelier of Witch Hat'? it's a manga (I guess you already know) with an interesting magic system in which the witches and wizards draw patterns for specific things. There's this little witch called Coco who was born without magic but by imitating some traveling wizards she casts a spell on her mother which now needs to figure out how to undo. She's kind of adopted by this marvelous father figure/magic professor who already has three girls in his care and they start a journey through learning and having little quests. As the manga progresses the plot becomes darker and darker. The art is the best you will ever see in a manga, and it's medieval fantasy. It would be fantastic if you decided to give it a go because I think you would enjoy it so much.
Thank you for your videos, I learn a lot from them.
Listening to some others talking about magic in older stories, I get the feel that the discussion about hard and soft magic systems may be missing something. I don't have all the answers but it seems that softer magic systems in older stories did have rules to them, they were just rules that a less symbolically inclined society have a harder time understanding. For instance, the Deus ex Machina is seen now-a-days as a negative to be avoided, yet older writers saw it as a necessary aspect of stories.
You make a really good point in this comment, especially with how we as a less symbolically driven society don't really recognize rules of magic in older stories.
I would imagine a lot of that comes from a decline in religiosity we've become much more materialistic and grounded and therefore a lot of the magic systems in our stories have mirrored that.
The number one thing to avoid when creating a magic system is what i like to call "the harry balls dilemma." The problem describes a system in which said powers have no limits on how high it can go or what it can do. Take late dragon ball: there's very little tension because there's no limit on how strong the villains are or how strong you yourself can become. You don't need to worry about if goku can beat someone because he just bought some new hair dye. Conversely, there's harry potter wherein there's soft limits on how high you can go, but not what you can do. Dumbles and voldemort are considered the two strongest wizards, and i beleive they cant destroy anything bigger than a mountain at a time and by themselves. The problem is they have literally infinite ways to kill that mountain. Turn it into an egg, melt it with fiendfyre, pick it up and toss it into the sun. Now look at every problem in the series just becomes "but if someone can do that to thing a, why didn't they use it to do thing b. Take the time turners. Jk introduced time travel in book 3, and instantly everyone was like "but if they had that, why didn't they use it to stop x" and her only response was because and then she got rid of them 2 books later to avoid thinking about it. So remember folks, always avoid harry balls
Actually, the time turner thing does make sense because I believe it’s canon you can only go back in time by 5 hours and even if that wasn’t the case you have to live through that time period and that’s just massively inconvenient.
@@joeyjerry1586 it's less of a problem of mechanics and more to do with writing youself into a corner. Why didn't dumbles save the potters right after the attack? Why didn't voldemort use it to snipe harry at the graveyard? It's a completely artificial problem "solved" by arbitrary rules and the elimination of said plot device
In defense of Sanderson info dumps, he is really good at paralleling magic explanation with character building. In Mistborn we learn different parts of the system from different characters, getting to know the large cast better, in Stormlight Kaladin learning the magic goes along with the building of brotherhood of Bridge 4, even Warbreaker, when Vasher drops a huge info dump, him being able to do that is a huge reveal to another side of his character
So glad you mentioned foundryside! The series does such a great job of giving you rules, and the constantly expanding the stuff you can do within that. Discovering tons of cool stuff (that you might have sussed out yourself was possible), is so cool! Orso and Berenice are awesome.
What would be a super interesting concept for a narrative where both hard magic and soft magic is used exclusively. Like one town is just soft magic and in the nature it's all hard magic. Or some towns are soft and others are hard. Or transportation is all hard magic and the rest is all soft magic or vice versa.
The spectrum factor between soft and hard magic is something I discovered by trying to make a magic system and not worrying about what classification it would fall into. I've done that at least 3 times now and, while some ended up softer and others ended up harder, none of them were absolutely locked in as either one.
That mainly comes from the fact, that I enjoy getting creative in my applications of magic to the point that, if I would try to actually lock it all down into a hard magic system, the amount of rules and moving pieces making up the whole thing would be impossible to not just explain to the reader, but also keep track of myself, leading to inevitable rule breaks. At the same time, I never want to let a system get so soft, that it feels like absolutely anything could happen without much in the way of rhyme or reason, as I feel like applications of it would too easily come off as just plot convenience or the like. Plus me being autistic, working with an utterly unorganized mess is borderline impossible in the first place, so there's that.
Though it's also worth noting, that I like to set up pieces on an imaginary board and move them across it almost exclusively through logical cause and effect. The stories that come from this don't wind up being much in the way of a well structured story, more like a glimpse into a separate universe in motion. Hence why I'm not an author, just a guy who likes to write out endless pages in a notebook as a creative outlet.
I'm so interested in a good magic system within a story. Thank you for talking about it. This was such a complete and interesting conversation.
The problem with Nen in HxH is that most recent fights are more like lawyers fighting at who can bend the rules better to their convenience. Fights are so complex that you need a phd to understand recent fights.
In a short summary:
Soft magic system: "No one's ever really gone."
Hard magic system: "AIRSHIP SLICE!!"
First I'm learning about these systems but when you explain how it works, it makes a lot of sense. Now I'm thinking how it applies to books I've read
If you want a really cool development of magical ability. Organically woven into a compelling storyline. Read "To Your Eternity" manga. Where the protagonist's abilities develop along with his personality and plot in the most organic way. This is an amazing story. Most likely, it will hook your emotions from the first chapters and will not let go.
I always like the interplay between hard and soft. Like either two separate systems on opposite ends, or a system that is overall soft but has a specific element that is hard.
One example of the latter is the Abhorsen/Old Kingdom series. Necromancy is really well defined, with seven bells that have specific effects (like making someone sleepy, forcing them to walk, etc.), layers of death with different geography, and the like. However, it is a part of a wider system called Free Magic, that is naturally unbound and chaotic. There’s also another system called the Charter, which is supposed to be more predictable/restricted in-universe, though it is still a soft system from an out-of-universe perspective.
You mentioned info dumping and essays when you were talking about laying out the rules of hard magic systems. This reminds me of Terry Mancoure’s Spellmonger Series, where the narrator is basically telling his life story and whenever he has to explain something you can *feel* the narrator going from story teller to professor and literally giving a lecture about some aspect of the magic system. I think it’s the best example of sharing hard magic roles in an interesting way.
I love the way An Unkindness of Magicians does soft magic and I wish it was something that fantasy writers would explore more often. The magic system isn’t explained very much, but what we do know about it is that there are strict consequences for using magic and that drives much of the plot, as well as many characters motivations throughout the book.
For me I always like a combination of both most having the general magic system be hard but when it comes down to the individual using it it's soft feels the most interesting. It takes the best of both worlds and mixes them together in the best way possible.
Same
You got me back into reading by taking an interest in something I love (one piece) I read maybe 7 books a month now and I'm loving it. Thank you Merphy.
I wonder if soft magic systems actually exist?It seems like a soft system is just one where the author intentionally omits explaining the rules to the reader.
I would be surprised if an author doesn’t have some idea on what’s permissible with their system.
If you actually read Brandon Sanderson's essay introducing the terms "hard magic" and "soft magic", you can see that this is literally what it is. A hard magic system is simply one where you need to understand the rules of the magic system in order to "solve the plot". In order to allow that plot to make sense to the reader, the rules must be explained.
I would argue that many authors kind of come up with stuff as they go and don't really set any rules. Harry Potter is a great example where the magic has very few limits you have the limits on transfiguration but otherwise there isn't much in the way of limitations. You have blood curses, literally defying death, people turning into animals, Harry wins a duel through sheer will.
I think World trigger has the hardest magic system from any other manga I've read
Let me just say that I fully blame Merphy for my deep dive into the fantasy genre. I would not have even discovered Mistborn, Lightbringer or The Name of the Wind without her videos!
I used to generally prefer hard magic because I liked understanding and the world built making sense and it felt less like magic could "Magic Ex Machina" any problem, but the new Dr. Strange movie of all things really made me appreciate soft magic and how often it works to have just vibes that you can go with instead of needing to know every detail of how it works
One of the best magic/cultivation system and world building I’ve seen would be Martial God Asura(MGA) that have both evolving little by little in the novel as it continues it is a mixture of both hard and soft magic system, I’d recommend it to anyone that likes this kind of novels
I'm all team soft magic system. I feel like overly explaining magic is demystifying or disenchanting magic itself. It becomes more like science. I find that a little boring for lack of a better term. That's one reason I never git into Harry Potter. The magic doesn't feel magical to me...
but harry potter leans more towards soft magic system.
@@vitoriaassuncao7716 does it? I'm not sure if I understand the difference than
Harry Potter is a super soft magic system. I'm not sure how you are thinking it's a hard system. It basically has zero rules, there is no explanation to how anything works, there is no rule to how anything works, it just does. Say this word and this thing happens, there are hints that people develop new spells, but I think that was more just world building than actually hinting at any sort of hard magic. Like I can't think of something softer than the whole ancient magic where someone sacrifices themselves to protect another which somehow creates a protection around that person.
I think you are definitely misunderstanding hard vs soft magic. Hard magic means you have set rules generally a set of simple rules think Mistborn where you have just a couple magical abilities and they are based on metals the interesting bit comes from how you manipulate those abilities and how they work together. Whereas in something like Harry Potter the magic is just there you can't guess what the next spell used will be based on previous spells you've seen in the series, you can't logic your way through a problem because an entirely new spell that falls outside of the ruleset we've seen can just pop up and fix the day. They both have their place but they are very different systems.
@@ChaosTherum thanks for the explanation. I fear I still don't understand. Maybe because I've never read anything that applies to your definition of hard magic. But that's ok. I don't think about that so much. Either I like the book or I don't...
@@leonardocucchiara4782 Well for a great example that's also just a fantastic series would be Mistborn from Brandon Sanderson. That will give you a good idea of a hard magic system and as I said it's also just a fantastically built world.
One of my favorite soft systems is from the anime adaptation of The Ancient Magus Bride/Mahoutsukai no yome.
The story take place in our current time, but has the typical secret society thing. In this case it deals mostly with I think irish/british mythology, but other mythology and even religion seems to be real, too. There are mages that are hundreds or possibly thousands of years old and some magic needs obscure rituals like having to bath a jar with different ingredients in moon and sunlight for multiple days, while infusing your magic the whole time to create a magic fairy oinment.
The feel of an ancient world that seems to work under completely different rules really inspires my own imagination.
Stormlight archive never had me like why are we being explained all of this! I eat that up cause I want to learn and understand how this amazing thing works. I never felt that info dumping from Brandon Sanderson, almost done rhythm of war yaaay!
Merphy that full metal alchemist tease killed me! I can not wait for to review it.
I’m the same, I love both at different times and for different reasons!!
The Starless Sea is probably my favorite soft magic system that I've read recently.
I think one author that is a master of "hard magic" and don't even discuss magic at all is Isaac Asimov.
Yes, you read correctly. Asimov establishes three simple rules (similar to what a hard magic system would do). The rules seems perfect and no problem is expected to come from them.
Except Asimov proceeds to show us how wrong we are by creating loopholes on the three trivial rules he imposed first.
Every single story is a masterpiece
Hard vs soft magic as a concept is already borrowing from hard vs soft science fiction, and Asimov is usually considered to be more hard science fiction.
I love these discussions!! Very good fun!! 👍👍👏👏😁... Have you ever read the Darksword Trilogy by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman? I really enjoyed the magic system in that trilogy.
With the mention of ghibli movies , it makes me wonder whether Merphy has seen castle of cagliostro.
A nice video to watch while I eat breakfast and decide what to read for today. Such a splendid day.
I'm a hardcore fan of hard magic system because I want every story beat to make sense. However, it's relaxing and fun to see some soft magic systems.
I'd like to recommend you a manga to read in your free time whenever you feel like it. It's a dark fantasy psychological thriller consisting of 127 chapters called "Hell's Paradise". All the cast is amazingly written and lovable, although their morality is quite dubious. But what sold me on is the overwhelmingly hard magic system with a combination of religious and science elements and of course the sense of mystery. Every single character had to learn about magic themselves and figure out its application to defeat the enemies.
The way each character is introduced to the magic system separately is so cool bc we get a different understanding of it depending on the character we follow
Hunter x Hunter had one of the most complicated magic systems for me to understand because it was one of the very first fantasy series I got into. It took so much explaining from the friend who suggested HxH to me that I got the basic gist of it but even then there were several moments where I had to stop and think about it.
Fullmetal Alchemist on the other hand was incredibly easy for me to understand. I would still call both of these magic systems "Hard", since they both have very clear rules and limits
Thank you for this. Didn't know I needed it .
I really appreciate that you said most books have both and are on a spectrum
That takes off the pressure too as a writer in fantasy to be like " oh man which one am I gonna chose to write?!?!?"
I'm not sure it's safe to listen to Merphy while driving long distance.
Your voice is so soothing and sweet Merphy
Ursula K Leguin did a great job blending Hard and Soft systems. With Hard Magic systems I feel the most important thing is consistentcy .
drinkin coffee on my birfday and this delightful notification pops up. Perfect!
Personally I like it a little simple but with certain rules and room to grow and expand. I like the anime “Energy fuels Technique” style which most anime use IE Nen from HunterxHunter. Curse Energy, Chakra etc.
100% agree with this video. Great thoughts on the topic 👌💜
full-metal alchemist love the hard magic system of that show. The magic has a lot of iconic imagery too and this mystical/esoteric deeper side with ideas of above and below, equivalent exchange, value of the soul, science vs religion etc
Now that is one interesting video title this morning.
Whoever made the thumbnail knew what they were doing
Mother of learning is a web serial with an amazing magic system and has some of the best world building i’ve ever seen in a story. I 100% recommend!
Love the video! I've been wondering a lot recently about classifying Avatar's magic system, so I'm glad that you pointed out that it can be a spectrum.
Also, SO SO EXCITED for you to read Fullmetal Alchemist!!! I am really looking forward to your take on the characters, themes, and twists.
Ok I need to stop for a sec, you‘re about to read FMA?!? HECK YEAH! I‘m excited for that journey!!! XD
Hey Merphy, I love your content and vibe!!!
I really think you would love 'The Wandering Inn' (it can be read online for free and maybe in book form aswell)
If you haven't heard about it you should look into it.
I'm a lover of fantasy books and Pirateaba (the author) manages to switch between multiple genres and "main characters" fluently
And while I hate it when the viewpoint switches, I've yet to find a charakter she doesn't manage to get me invested in
Since it's in online format it constantly provides new udpates (similar to manga, but written) and I'm about to be up to date
The main charakter is a girl who finds an inn, I won't say more, it's incredible!
Also really looking forward to you thoughts on Fullmetal Alchemist, I loved it :)
I’m so glad I subscribed to this channel
my favourite mechanism, a hard magic system which when not explained acts as a soft magic system. Because the magic system has its "consistency" but still has the mysticism and the wonder element. The One Power in the first couple of books of wheel of time feels so soft, but once we understand the One Power more and learn about weaves, The One Power becomes a hard magic system, and I love this progression for a magic system.
Since you are fond of fantasy, I recommend reading Witch Hat Atelier. It is a wonderful fantasy manga.
Oh yes, a fucking underrated marvel, it also has one of the *best* magic systems ever
Completely agreed. Probably one of the best magic systems ever. Elegant, simple, but infinite in possibilities. Potter is totally clunky & inconsistent in comparison. And the art, ohmygod, the paneling, the inventive graphic syntax...Unbelievable! Shirahama (the mangaka) and Mori Kaoru (mangaka of Bride's Story) are the best crafts-women in manga right now. These two make most male artists working in the genre to shame.
@@colonylaser4860 Yeah, the panelling is gorgeous. The power system is great too! It's a must read for fantasy fans. I hope the anime adaptation makes it more popular.
I think Nen is the best magic system. As you put it, the rules are hard, but the individuality of its use is just soft enough to be flexible and open to as many uses as you can think of.
Also it allows less capable fighters to win due to nen conditions or preparation, while also making clear that on an equal playing field the more powerful would win.
It's my absolute favorite magic/power system, even beating western magic systems in my mind
It's funny you mention the One Ring as a form of soft magic system - and I actually agree it is - however, I've heard other content creators (and I believe even Sanderson?) say it's Tolkien's one hard magic system.
This just proves that, hard or soft, it's more of a spectrum than anything
It’s hard due to it’s defined rules basically.
Gotta love that hard, throbbing magic system all up in that business.
You are correct in saying that hard magic is understandable and a tool of sorts, but it makes it less magical. Mistborn didn't really seem like a fantasy anymore but more like comic book heroes with one gimmick.
I completely agree with soft magic feeling more like it could be real, which is why I am so sad that in roleplaying games like D&D, magic is usually rather hard and thus feels too much like just a game mechanism and not something that enriches the setting.
Wild magic surges?
It's really hard to design a game in which you give the players access to magic, and not have it be at least moderately hard, because games are made of rules, so the magic the players use... Also needs to be guided by those same rules. While the presence of a GM does allow for magic that has a bit more mystery to it, in a crunchy, tactical game like D&D, soft magic would be a pretty poor fit. And while crunchy RPGs with more freeform magic systems exist, like Mage or Ars Magica, they tend to lean even harder due to the rules-heavy nature of the games and the need to limit magic users in some way, as well as the need to provide a framework for the magic to interact with the system's rules
That's why soft magic systems, I believe, are much more at home in lighter, more narrative games, where there's not a heavy focus on combat, and thus what your character does, both with and without magic, is determined by a few stats, your creativity as a player, and maybe a short list of unique, broad abilities.
As a fan, I prefer hard magic systems, because I feel like I have a real understanding of what can and can't happen in a fight, which in turn makes it easier for the author to create anticipation, which is critical for keeping the audience emotionally involved. It also makes the description of the fight itself more interesting, and the tactics more intricate.
I really liked the magic system of Heralds of Valdemar. A lot of magic combat is about magical shields and energy sources. Psionic combat operates under different rules and can also be intricate.
I believe there was an author who tried to give Dr Strange a hard magic system in which a limited number of spells were used, and each spell had specific effects.
I love both sometimes I want to know how things works in that world and how the characters have their own limitations and other times I love just to feel that magic is real and enjoy the journey with that kind of feeling.
I think you would enjoy Soul Eater
It has a good combination of hard and soft magic where all of the characters "power ups" feel more fluid and make sense.
(Power can be related to the connection between the weapon and fighter so when a pair go through something traumatizing and come out the other side stronger [or in some situations weaker])
Is hard v soft determined by reader knowledge or author knowledge? Malazan from reader point of view is very soft since we know so little, but the rules are there that probably only Erikson and Esslemont know fully.
I’d say I lean towards preferring the more ‘magical’ feel of a softly-defined magic system, though the opportunities for puzzle-solving and discovery in a rigidly-defined one can also be a very satisfying read, in that same vein as murder mysteries and old-school sci-fi.
That said, some of my favourite ‘magic’ in writing was Pratchett, in Discworld, where the whole thing is pretty much rigidly and firmly defined... as being slightly fudgy at the most basic levels (drawing on ideas about quantum mechanics, and engineering in-jokes), and prone to misbehaviour at inopportune times.
And I love that; I think it’s part of what makes those books so unique. Certainly it’s part of why the wizards series in discworld was my favourite. Also a good way of illustrating that you don’t _have_ to follow convention and go strongly with one or the other.
Dang it, the comment posted before I finished it and I can’t edit on mobile
What I was going to say was that the thing I like the most in a magic system is when it’s something timeless, looming and folkloric; not so much a force of nature as something that is somehow beyond it, above it, outside it, or even opposed to it. Something that works more like what you get in classical literature and bedtime stories - which is probably _why_ ‘soft’ magic systems feel more ‘like magic’ for me - because that’s where I learned that word from in the first place. Of course, doing things that way works best with a strong and compelling narrative that exists _without_ the presence of any magic, so that its impact can really be felt properly.
People have been debating their favorites for a while, but what is life if you can't enjoy variety to its fullest potential? I don't want to choose a favorite. I love both. I'm happy to see most of the comment section agrees. =)
A really good example of a world with hard and soft magic systems together is The Outstretched Shadow by Mercedes Lackey. The hard magic is High Magic that has definite rules and consequences and can be learned, though the training is arduous (mages learn at an academy).
The soft magic is Wild Magic and is a lot more amorphous - it reads more like witchery where you cast a spell and send out your request to the Wild Magic, not knowing how it will respond or when or what the cost will be when it is answered. You are in a kind of covenant with it, where you are agreeing to whatever the cost will be in return for the request you are making.
BTW, the elves is this series are similar to LOTR elves (long-lived, wise, excellent craftsmen etc) but are also different in several interesting ways, for example they considerate it rude to ask questions and the way they talk around questions is actually quite elegant (though children are exempt from this, and all are exempt in time of war)
I would LOVE you to read this book! I adore Lackey's writing style and would love to hear your thoughts on it.
I will say that I think if you are going to have a well written magic system it cannot be entirely hard or entirely soft.
Hard magic sets reader expectations, giving rules that need to be followed. However if the rules are too strict you don't have enough room to add individuality to the system and it ends up as more of a textbook than a story.
Soft magic sets emotional tone to the story, giving the reader expectations for what sort of emotions to expect from the story moving forward. However if the magic system is too soft, or too strange it can make the story incomprehensible, replacing all emotion with a "what?"
The two together compliment each other, providing a push and pull between order and chaos, stagnation and movement, that adds a flow to a story. From there which is better is more a question of the type of story being told. A harder magic system usually does an excellent job in scenarios where breaking rules or even revealing the rules are key moments to the story. (Some really great stories re-contextualize the rules later on showing that the system known by the humans was actually larger than they realized.) Softer systems provide a stronger connection to nature and emotion, giving stories in these topics a bigger feel.
Further, I'm of a personal opinion that Hard magic systems are just Soft magic systems that humanity has expended a great amount of effort into investigating. Everything has rules, but you don't necessarily know all of them, even after thousands and thousands of years of exploration.
One of my favorite things is the hard magic that isn't fully understood. Like blood bending and metal bending with Avatar.
Though I think it's far more important that the magic system fit the point of the story/author. Soft and hard systems will serve different kind of stories better.
I need this as I’m writing my debut novel and since yesterday been trying to learn about magic systems