I like the ECHO tubes to be honest. I have a PVS 14 with ECHO tube and I also have a PVS 14 that I spent way to much money on with a gen 3 filmless WP. The ECHO device cost me 2200 USD the L3 cost me 4700 USD. Don't get me wrong, there is most definitely a massive difference, but the ECHO is perfectly usable. An ECHO is still combat effective and would give you a substantial advantage over anyone without NV or even someone using digital. I was dumb and fell for the hype about the Sionyx devices, the ECHO blows them out of the water. In other words, if a 2000 USD PVS 14 with a ECHO is all you can swing you will not be disappointed.
Your test is folled by your phone camera. Since the ECHO's screen brightness is adjusted low, so the phone sensor integrates during full frame. But GEN3 devices have much higher brightness and the phone camera shortens its integration time and less photons are captured during the integration. This makes image noiser. When the light level is low, then you see the real performance between GEN2+ and GEN3. You can use a manual setting camera to do this test, you will see that GEN3 gives always lower noise.
Thank you for this one ! Its really interesting to see such detailed comparisons and how the tubes work in different environments, with pros and cons. Is Harder Digital really Katod core's ?
@@PaulMcDonagh-rv6vc Gen3 image intensifier is a product of the highest level of engineering, expertise and labour. Production is also immensely expensive as materials and machinery for gallium arsenide are not commercially available. Those facilities are impossible without massive investments and are ALWAYS subject to government contracts and strict regulations. There are only a handful of companies worldwide capable to produce these tubes: L3, Harris, Photonis, ITT, Katod - Harder is not one of them. If you manage to find one of these "Harder" tubes and compare to one of EPM - you'll see the same housting, same connectors, same epoxied recesses. Just a different badge.
@@AndSome625028 Thats really interesting commentary. I tend to agree. Ive used a harder tube (2400HD) and it was slightly lacking. Overall resolution and image quality was poor, even though it was a 73 res. Ive heard it said many times that they are KATOD components, but still these people lack evidence or reference for their claims. That concerns me somewhat. I also believe they are fully filmed tubes, which adds to there inferiority. Funnily enough though, the European astronomy community swear blind they are amazing, especially the 0.01 EBI figures, and 0.1 Halo. But they lack real gen 3, and that may be the reason. Interesting stuff.
ELBIT are amazing tubes. I wouldnt have this one though, the fom of -1600 is pretty crappy. Which will mean low luminance gain and low PS. Imagine a 2300 fom elbit. It would blow the Harder right outta the water.
The problem is ITAR. In europe you can't get L3 and Elbits only up to 1600 FOM because ITAR Regulations. :/ So you can only get Elbits up to 1600 FOM, Harder or Photonis.
We chose to order the new Photonis Echo+ (fom 2000+) and as we don't have it yet, can't tell you if it is good or not 😊 This seems to be on going debate, but depending from who you ask if Photonis is gen2 or gen3, so which gen is it and does it really matter? By the way who makes gen 3 tubes in Europe (if you don't consider Echos gen3)? Our need is not to perform in completely dark, more like urban dark.
Harder is the source for GaAs gen 3 tubes outside the US. For mixed environments, the multi-alkaline photonis is a good choice as it rejects flashes and blooming really well and will allow for good identification. The Russian Katod also makes high performing devices, but aren't commonly available.
Thank you Adrian for your answer! Do you know who sells the Harder tubes in Europe? Let' s hope these srict regulations also eases a bit in the future and we are able to buy L3 tubes in Europe. And more competion will get prices a bit inexpensive. Like what we ordered the Photonis Echo+ single tube was 6900€ in Finland, so it is quite expensive. Of course it is important that the best tubes will not find their way to the rogue states.
@@petrikupiainen I am not European and I don't own a night vision device. The price you quoted for the Echo+ seems 1/3 too high. One source I looked at for Europe was falconclaw. 4600€ + VAT for Echo+ on their site. USA will never loosen NVD ITAR regs.
Adrian Simmlekark, yes the price is 1/3 too high. Here in Finland is only one official nvd importer, so that is why the prices are too pricy. Time I ordered nvd I did't know Falconclaw. It seems to be ok company? In Europe seems to be company named AstronomyNow in France who sells the Harder devices. Thank you Adrian very much for your answers!
@@petrikupiainen Go with Photonis Echo+. Or if you can afford it, go 4g or 4g+. They are excellent tubes and you will not be disappointed. Ive got 4g and Elbit XLSH, and for pitch black (away from cities) gen 3 is better at making an image in pitch black. But for semi rural, or semi urban, my 4g wins hands down. Less scintillation, far better halo, and crisper image. Photonis really is an excellent tube.
WOW soo much "Noise" in all Tubes... looks like what i used in the late 90ies in the Army - NOT Impressed from what the Industry delivers... Either wailt for Digital NVG or gonna buy Andres Industry TILO and laugh about such a picture Or get a Echo+ and laugh about overprized Elbit and Harder...
This feels…kind of cherry picked. A sub 1600 FOM Elbit isn’t the average of even the SLH or XLSH and is going to preform really bad in comparison to the normal ones, that even with blems, are about 2200-2500 FOM
@@DrGamingDude That type of idiotic policy serves no purpose and is purely used to arbitrarily limit the capabilities of citizens. Who would ever think to pass a law like that besides the Europeans.
@@AbsolutionArmament Google is not a place nor a good reply. Neither Germany or Serbia contract Gen3 tubes with FOM 1800+. Their development and manufacture far exceed in investment the few available tubes on the market. Harder tubes are exact same tubes made in [forbidden word] with a rebadge. That being said, they are terrific value - I own one. Not here to bash but you gotta give credit where credit is due.
@@AndSome625028 Appreciate your response, as it breaks down people's lethargy and bullshit barriers. You say Harder is Russian, which i now know to be true. However, you also say Harder are good value. How is a 2100fom Harder priced around £4500 good value, especially considering they are Katod parts, and have fully filmed tubes. Here to learn, not hate. Thanks.
@@PaulMcDonagh-rv6vc Hey Paul. In all candour, filmless technology is a misnomer. It most likely is still using a film, just not aluminium oxide. Yes, it is clearer than an average tube but only marginally compared to other high-end ones. L3 marketing genius is making you think that everything else is obsolete - don’t buy into it. As far as value, ditch rebadge. If you manage to get Katod tube - there is no competition, courtesy of this video. I’ve got my unit with housing and optics for about $1050 in 2018. Considering it is also legal to travel with - I’d say they are good value.
![Chinese Autogated NNVT vs Photonis Echo | Are these NVG tubes any good? [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/66sOQ0TkXb8/mqdefault.jpg)
This is top notch content. Your channel deserves more recognition. Liked and subbed
Great Comparison. Here in the US market Echo's are a great value and so are Elbit XLSH's really can't go wrong with either.
I have an Elbit SLH with 81 Res, 34.2 SNR for 2770 FOM, EBI .95, Halo .74 and it's amazing!
What no tube model?
@@arcbumibul7282 Elbit SLH, which is a better binned XLSH.
nice mate, what was the price?
@@mischifischi Paid $1900, granted this was two years ago and inventory has been drying up.
I like the ECHO tubes to be honest. I have a PVS 14 with ECHO tube and I also have a PVS 14 that I spent way to much money on with a gen 3 filmless WP. The ECHO device cost me 2200 USD the L3 cost me 4700 USD. Don't get me wrong, there is most definitely a massive difference, but the ECHO is perfectly usable. An ECHO is still combat effective and would give you a substantial advantage over anyone without NV or even someone using digital. I was dumb and fell for the hype about the Sionyx devices, the ECHO blows them out of the water. In other words, if a 2000 USD PVS 14 with a ECHO is all you can swing you will not be disappointed.
Always balance your budget with your needs, most people will never need high specs.
@@falconclaw_ well I use the L3 unit because I have it and it's amazing, but yeah 2000 FOM would probably be plenty for most applications.
Ι like how u dont make a million videos but when you do, the quality just gets better
Amazing work team 🤗 thorough comparison and the least amount of bias
Elbit overall shows the best image and has the nice blue tint.
I have a 2337 FOM Echo. It's absolutely amazing. 33.87 SNR, 69 res, 1.1 EBI (US).
How much gain?
wow, very good comparison on the Harder tube. subscribed.
Great video man, your intro and outro added a nice touch!
Thanks guys 🫡
Im happpy with my ECHO tube, video demo on my channel 😁
Great content!! Thanks!
It would have been interesting to see how a MH25 performs compared to nightvision at 4:45.
Your test is folled by your phone camera. Since the ECHO's screen brightness is adjusted low, so the phone sensor integrates during full frame. But GEN3 devices have much higher brightness and the phone camera shortens its integration time and less photons are captured during the integration. This makes image noiser. When the light level is low, then you see the real performance between GEN2+ and GEN3. You can use a manual setting camera to do this test, you will see that GEN3 gives always lower noise.
I have absolutly no idea. For the videos i would take the europeans. But for what You told, sems that Echoes are the right choise.
Thankfully I was in sector 4... we just went on break.
Thank you for this one ! Its really interesting to see such detailed comparisons and how the tubes work in different environments, with pros and cons. Is Harder Digital really Katod core's ?
They are not just cores - they are entire Katod tubes with Harder badge slapped over.
@@AndSome625028 That's interesting. What have you got for verification this is indeed a true statement.
@@PaulMcDonagh-rv6vc Gen3 image intensifier is a product of the highest level of engineering, expertise and labour. Production is also immensely expensive as materials and machinery for gallium arsenide are not commercially available. Those facilities are impossible without massive investments and are ALWAYS subject to government contracts and strict regulations. There are only a handful of companies worldwide capable to produce these tubes: L3, Harris, Photonis, ITT, Katod - Harder is not one of them.
If you manage to find one of these "Harder" tubes and compare to one of EPM - you'll see the same housting, same connectors, same epoxied recesses. Just a different badge.
@@AndSome625028 Thats really interesting commentary. I tend to agree. Ive used a harder tube (2400HD) and it was slightly lacking. Overall resolution and image quality was poor, even though it was a 73 res. Ive heard it said many times that they are KATOD components, but still these people lack evidence or reference for their claims. That concerns me somewhat. I also believe they are fully filmed tubes, which adds to there inferiority.
Funnily enough though, the European astronomy community swear blind they are amazing, especially the 0.01 EBI figures, and 0.1 Halo. But they lack real gen 3, and that may be the reason.
Interesting stuff.
@@PaulMcDonagh-rv6vc It depends on model and year of production. My intensifier is made in 2016, I had it next to omni vi - exactly comparable image.
im curious of how a echo would perform with a clipon a blacked out forest against a gen 3
Great work, ty
Cool vid. Thanks.
Thank you
Echo gen2+ anyday if the price is more affordable. I've ran both elbit gen 3 XLSH products and gen2+ echo. Barely any difference.
ELBIT are amazing tubes. I wouldnt have this one though, the fom of -1600 is pretty crappy. Which will mean low luminance gain and low PS. Imagine a 2300 fom elbit. It would blow the Harder right outta the water.
I have a 2300+ Fom Elbit and it’s freaking amazing
The problem is ITAR. In europe you can't get L3 and Elbits only up to 1600 FOM because ITAR Regulations. :/ So you can only get Elbits up to 1600 FOM, Harder or Photonis.
We need the specs...
Enriko real OG
hi, love your videos! wich elbit is it, xlsh or omni?
How much is the Harder's tube? Does it cost much less than Elbit's?
Anyway you could link to the recorder you were using?
Can someone link that POV recorder?
damn, echo are great !
Elbit owned the other two
What you pick:
Echo 35snr / 68res / 0.15 ebi
Harder: 29 snr/ 72 res / 0.6 ebi
Help!
Echo for me
Do a 4g vs harder gen3
We chose to order the new Photonis Echo+ (fom 2000+) and as we don't have it yet, can't tell you if it is good or not 😊 This seems to be on going debate, but depending from who you ask if Photonis is gen2 or gen3, so which gen is it and does it really matter? By the way who makes gen 3 tubes in Europe (if you don't consider Echos gen3)?
Our need is not to perform in completely dark, more like urban dark.
Harder is the source for GaAs gen 3 tubes outside the US. For mixed environments, the multi-alkaline photonis is a good choice as it rejects flashes and blooming really well and will allow for good identification. The Russian Katod also makes high performing devices, but aren't commonly available.
Thank you Adrian for your answer!
Do you know who sells the Harder tubes in Europe? Let' s hope these srict regulations also eases a bit in the future and we are able to buy L3 tubes in Europe. And more competion will get prices a bit inexpensive. Like what we ordered the Photonis Echo+ single tube was 6900€ in Finland, so it is quite expensive. Of course it is important that the best tubes will not find their way to the rogue states.
@@petrikupiainen I am not European and I don't own a night vision device. The price you quoted for the Echo+ seems 1/3 too high. One source I looked at for Europe was falconclaw. 4600€ + VAT for Echo+ on their site.
USA will never loosen NVD ITAR regs.
Adrian Simmlekark, yes the price is 1/3 too high. Here in Finland is only one official nvd importer, so that is why the prices are too pricy. Time I ordered nvd I did't know Falconclaw. It seems to be ok company? In Europe seems to be company named AstronomyNow in France who sells the Harder devices. Thank you Adrian very much for your answers!
@@petrikupiainen Go with Photonis Echo+. Or if you can afford it, go 4g or 4g+. They are excellent tubes and you will not be disappointed.
Ive got 4g and Elbit XLSH, and for pitch black (away from cities) gen 3 is better at making an image in pitch black. But for semi rural, or semi urban, my 4g wins hands down. Less scintillation, far better halo, and crisper image.
Photonis really is an excellent tube.
Whats the point of view recorder?
How does this work for stargazing/ ufo watching?
There are specific videos and reddit post about what to buy for this purpose. Check them out.
What is that recorder?
WOW soo much "Noise" in all Tubes... looks like what i used in the late 90ies in the Army - NOT Impressed from what the Industry delivers...
Either wailt for Digital NVG or gonna buy Andres Industry TILO and laugh about such a picture
Or get a Echo+ and laugh about overprized Elbit and Harder...
This feels…kind of cherry picked. A sub 1600 FOM Elbit isn’t the average of even the SLH or XLSH and is going to preform really bad in comparison to the normal ones, that even with blems, are about 2200-2500 FOM
There's a FOM limit for most European countries so it's no surprise.
@@DrGamingDude That type of idiotic policy serves no purpose and is purely used to arbitrarily limit the capabilities of citizens. Who would ever think to pass a law like that besides the Europeans.
@@creekochee3592 The more infringements are cast on civilians, the more their governments fear them.
The law in Europe does not prohibit the sale of higher FOM nightvision, USA wont export nods that are over 1600FOM becouse of ITAR.
@@creekochee3592 But thats a US law, called ITAR ^^
Harder gen3 huh? Care to elaborate where it’s made?
Google, Germany and Serbia.
@@AbsolutionArmament
Google is not a place nor a good reply.
Neither Germany or Serbia contract Gen3 tubes with FOM 1800+. Their development and manufacture far exceed in investment the few available tubes on the market.
Harder tubes are exact same tubes made in [forbidden word] with a rebadge.
That being said, they are terrific value - I own one.
Not here to bash but you gotta give credit where credit is due.
@@AndSome625028 Appreciate your response, as it breaks down people's lethargy and bullshit barriers.
You say Harder is Russian, which i now know to be true.
However, you also say Harder are good value. How is a 2100fom Harder priced around £4500 good value, especially considering they are Katod parts, and have fully filmed tubes.
Here to learn, not hate. Thanks.
@@PaulMcDonagh-rv6vc
Hey Paul. In all candour, filmless technology is a misnomer. It most likely is still using a film, just not aluminium oxide. Yes, it is clearer than an average tube but only marginally compared to other high-end ones. L3 marketing genius is making you think that everything else is obsolete - don’t buy into it.
As far as value, ditch rebadge. If you manage to get Katod tube - there is no competition, courtesy of this video. I’ve got my unit with housing and optics for about $1050 in 2018. Considering it is also legal to travel with - I’d say they are good value.
that elbit is such a shit tube and still looks better lol
Let's see L3's tubes
Falconclaw is from Estonia. You can't get L3 Tubes outside of US.