They started with two backsprings because guys would open both blades when cleaning and break the single backspring, double backsprings eliminated this issue.
I love these old videos of yours . I find myself going back and watching all of these traditional pattern series videos every few months . Have you thought about more in this series ?
Mighty fine info on a knife that years ago was probably very popular. My grandfather farmed, but to supplement his income did some trapping. No doubt he had an improved version!
I actually enjoyed the history behind the pattern but I just can't get into this pattern. But as traditional pattern knife you have to admit it had an impact.
Love this older video, I just got a mini muskrat (Elk Ridge) with red a jigged bone handle. They call it a gentlemen's knife but it is really a "Baby Muskrat" (having the 2 equal-sized blades) it's real sharp & snappy...only paid $5 for it!
I agree. While the blades are the same, the shape of the handle makes cutting with them different. This really is something I should've covered! Thanks for the catch!
Thanks for the info! A friend gave me a Case muskrat as a present. Curious about the name, I found this video. Your video has now got me interested in the history of all the knife shapes. I've come to realize these specific knife styles are actually a part of our history.
Thanks! I'm glad you found the information useful! Thanks also for dropping by. Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Some how I missed your comment in my news feed!
Great information! It's good to learn the origins of these traditional patterns. It's easy to forget most developed to perform specific tasks. I had no idea about the Muskrat! And it seems Rough Rider knives are a good value in this area. Thanks!
Thanks. I do like Rough Rider Knives. For their price you really can't beat them. There are numerous videos of people comparing them side by side to Case Knives. For the most part the primary difference is Case in Made in the USA and has superior finish, but not by much! As for performance, the Rough Rider is on par or sometimes performs the Case and a third of the cost!
I went to the only knife store remaining in northern Illinois to buy a Stockman. None were available so I bought a Case Muskrat with yellow handles. About three weeks later the store went out of business. I still don't have a Stockman.
Glad you enjoyed it. Surprisingly, I wasn't a fan of the pattern until I started researching it. I have a new found respect for a purpose built practical knife.
The frame of the Case muskrat is slightly larger than the frame of the Case "18" pattern medium stockman. I thought they were the same, but comparing them side by side the muskrat is a bit longer.
@@KnifeChatswithTobias Sounds about right. When I compared them recently there was a slight but noticeable difference. I just bought a Case pocket worn whiskey bone CV muskrat and thought, "Hey, this is the same frame as my 6318 stockman." But nope -- looks very similar but slightly different. Anyway, very interesting channel and I plan to watch some more of your videos! (First muskrat I ever saw was a Rough Ryder. I found it quite appealing but wasn't sure if I'd like something with two identical blades. I bought it anyway. A while ago I found a Case muskrat in deep canyon jigged calypso bone and thought it was so striking and unique that I bought it. This past weekend I found my latest one and wanted to get it for the CV steel. I think I've gotten over my reservations about the blades!)
@@KnifeChatswithTobias By the way, here is a link to a thread about a Schatt & Morgan improved muskrat. 400 were produced, 100 each of four different bone covers. I have one of the fire oak versions. www.bladeforums.com/threads/schatt-morgan-improved-muskrat.599232/
@@KnifeChatswithTobias Just a bit more info for you, this is from Collecting Case Knives by Steve Pfeiffer: "Hawbaker's Special Muskrat: This version was made as a 'special factory order' or SFO knife for S. Stanley Hawbaker and Sons, a trapping supply company located in Pennsylvania... There were many variations of the 'Hawbaker's Special' pattern made from the Case XX era until 1982." (The book is available on Amazon in print and Kindle versions.)
Case uses the #47 frame for its muskrat. This 3 7/8 in frame is used for a three blade stockman as well as a double end jack knife. They also make their bird hunter on the frame. The explanation I have always heard is that Case puts the pattern number on the secondary blade of the knife. And as technically, the Muskrat has two primary blades, there is no place for the pattern number. But this is really this is a bit of a dodge to some degree It is true, Case puts the pattern on the second blade on knives that have two or more blades. So, for instance, a 47 pattern stag stockman and stag double end jack would be a 5347 Stockman and 5247 Jack. And in theory they could name a Muskrat in Stag a 5247 and add an M after the number to designate a Muskrat. But as this blade would look identical to the main blade, it could inadvertently end up on the wrong knife. So they choose not to add the pattern number to the muskrat style clip blade Other 47 pattern knives with different secondary blades get pattern numbers. At one time, Case would stamp Muskrats with the word “MUSKRAT” but I think this was stopped as it limited the blade possible use on other knives. Also, you will sometimes find Muskrats with different dates ( for instance on clip blade will have 7 dots and another 4). This is because Case has been known to use existing stock of older blades on Muskrats so as not waste them. Today, I think Case has made the decision not to give the Muskrat an official pattern number simply because of the lore behind the pattern. I hope this helps.
I also would prefer multi-bladed knives to have different styles of blades. I get the philosophy of the muskrat but still not something I'd be carrying. Thanks for dropping by!
A great video. I have been getting the urge to purchase one of these lately. I wonder how they fare for camp tasks, such as carving? They appear to me to be a little delicate.
The knife is essentially a medium toothpick with two blades. The plays are slender but functional, espeically for skinning small game. I don't think it is the best blade for woodworking.
I recently just got into wood carving and I tried using my Case Medium Stockman, and it was kind of difficult to do so. I tried all 3 blades, and the one I had the best luck with was the sheepsfoot which is a smaller blade. The blades are very thin and I think they are a bit delicate myself. I don't recommend these knives for carving unless maybe you're doing detail work. I mainly use mine for opening boxes and small things like that. For a good all around knife, I would recommend an Ontario Rat 2, or if you want a bigger size, the Rat 1 is a pretty good one too. Both of these come in around 40 dollars and are great for harder use. I have two and I haven't had any issues with anything I've needed to do with them
@@jacobj3236 the stockman is generally considered to be a decent patern for carving the clip blade can hog off a lot of material the spay is best modified to a warncliff for detail work and the sheep foot is pretty good for carving already. Case makes a pattern called the seahorse whittler that is pretty darn well designed for carving.
A good question. The Moose is normally a large frame knife and normally has the blades of a Trapper (Clip and Spay) but one on either end. From what I understand, the Moose was designed by none other than George W. (Nessmuk) Sears, the original bush-crafter! The Muskrat is its smaller cousin. The Hawbaker Special and smaller frame Moose knives are sometimes called a "MooseRats" because of how similar the blades are. A Moose normally does not have the serpentine handles but an equal end handle with a slight convex bend. Interesting enough you can also find early examples of both knives on an equal-end cigar handle.
I have spent many years studying the traditional pocket knives and the old American cutlery companies who made them extensively. I've bought & read all of the best books, searched up any & all articles ( both hard copy and online ), including interviews with retired master cutlers who actually made the knives in these factories back in the early 1900's. Sadly, they have all passed on, of course. The following is merely my opinion: I think MARKETING TACTICS were used in producing the first "Improved Muskrat" knives, and here's why: ANY knife that shares a single back spring with multiple blades (single back spring muskrat, stockman, whittlers, congress, half whittler, farmer's jack, etc. ) are far more difficult to produce vs the same pattern that has a single blade per spring, which means it takes more labor and time to accomplish. Those old single spring muskrat knives were made with far more precision, and much sleeker in design.This equates into higher production costs for the knife manufacturer. I am no 60 yrs old. Back when I was a kid, nearly all the men knew that you NEVER open both blades of a single spring knife at the same time. If you open the first blade all the way open, the tension on the spring is totally relieved, to allow opening the other blade WITHOUT the risk of breaking a spring. BUT YOU NEVER OPEN BOTH BLADES AT ONCE. ( As a side note: Dealers had the bad habit of partially opening all the blades at once, for display purposes in catalogs and display cases. ) This places too much tension on the spring, because you are bending BOTH ENDS of the spring AT THE SAME TIME. It's also the #1 reason for broken back springs. I believe the cost of adding the additional spring to a 2 bladed knife outweighs the cost of SKILL & LABOR TIME to produce a fine muskrat made with a single back spring. Cutlery history has proven time & time again, that as the years wore on for each cutlery company, they would eventually cut production costs by eventually producing knives with less quality, in addition to dropping HUNDREDS of classy knife patterns from their catalogs, leaving only a basic core line of working knives that were easier & much less costly to produce. I hold a lot of respect for Mr. Hawbaker.....but he was after all, selling & marketing those "Improved Muskrat" knives. Of course he was going to claim "they are improved". I challenge anyone to visit Great Eastern Cutlery, and ask the founder & master knife maker Bill Howard, which is easier and less costly to produce: a muskrat with 2 springs, or a fine muskrat that has only a single spring. Keep in mind, the finer, single back spring versions have back springs that are also slightly wider than a typical back spring for a single blade. I own many of both types as well. Just sayin'.
They started with two backsprings because guys would open both blades when cleaning and break the single backspring, double backsprings eliminated this issue.
Appreciate the history videos Tobias. Please keep them coming
Ramble on I'm learning. I have knives from case and didn't know the back story of the muskrat and bird knife shared the same frame.
I love these old videos of yours . I find myself going back and watching all of these traditional pattern series videos every few months . Have you thought about more in this series ?
Well switching back and forth between an Ontario rat 2 for my hard work and a muskrat from rough rider for my traditional bug is an amazing rotation.
Mighty fine info on a knife that years ago was probably very popular. My grandfather farmed, but to supplement his income did some trapping. No doubt he had an improved version!
I actually enjoyed the history behind the pattern but I just can't get into this pattern. But as traditional pattern knife you have to admit it had an impact.
Historically very important. When I farmed I bought mostly stockman knives because we raised goats
I always wondered why they had two identical blades. Now I know. Thanks for another informative video.
Thanks. I'm glad you found it helpful. Thanks for dropping by and supporting my channel. I appreciate your comments!
Awesome vid Tobias, love the history videos
Thank you for the history. I really like my Muskrats because you have a back up blade if needed.
Love this older video, I just got a mini muskrat (Elk Ridge) with red a jigged bone handle. They call it a gentlemen's knife but it is really a "Baby Muskrat" (having the 2 equal-sized blades) it's real sharp & snappy...only paid $5 for it!
Thanks for this very clear and detailed explanation.
Thanks Tobias for another informative video. You are the ultimate authority on pocket knives and there usage.
Love the history lessons my favorite video's thank u
Great information! Wonderful video ! Thank You
you are quite welcome. I'm glad you found it helpful
I have that same improved muskrat. I love it. I find one blade cants down more than the other so it works better for draw cutting. Cool video.
Do you know that the bolster material is?
@@lindboknifeandtool Nickel silver.
I agree. While the blades are the same, the shape of the handle makes cutting with them different. This really is something I should've covered! Thanks for the catch!
Thanks for the info! A friend gave me a Case muskrat as a present. Curious about the name, I found this video. Your video has now got me interested in the history of all the knife shapes. I've come to realize these specific knife styles are actually a part of our history.
Thanks. I'm glad you found it useful. I have other videos that talk about the history of different traditional knife patterns
That is nice information and good to know about the same blades made by different companies.
Thanks! I'm glad you found the information useful! Thanks also for dropping by. Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Some how I missed your comment in my news feed!
Great information! It's good to learn the origins of these traditional patterns. It's easy to forget most developed to perform specific tasks. I had no idea about the Muskrat! And it seems Rough Rider knives are a good value in this area. Thanks!
Thanks. I do like Rough Rider Knives. For their price you really can't beat them. There are numerous videos of people comparing them side by side to Case Knives. For the most part the primary difference is Case in Made in the USA and has superior finish, but not by much! As for performance, the Rough Rider is on par or sometimes performs the Case and a third of the cost!
Just bought a RR blue mule muskrat...nice knife.
I went to the only knife store remaining in northern Illinois to buy a Stockman. None were available so I bought a Case Muskrat with yellow handles. About three weeks later the store went out of business. I still don't have a Stockman.
My Oldtimer Muskrat goes to the woods or fields with me everytime I go on a rabbit or squirrel hunt.
I have a friend who routinely uses an old Imperial Muskrat to field dress white tails!
awesome vid on my favorite pattern
Glad you enjoyed it. Surprisingly, I wasn't a fan of the pattern until I started researching it. I have a new found respect for a purpose built practical knife.
The frame of the Case muskrat is slightly larger than the frame of the Case "18" pattern medium stockman. I thought they were the same, but comparing them side by side the muskrat is a bit longer.
I think the 18 patten is 3 5/8 inches. A muskrat is normally 3 7/8 inches, or a 1/4 inch more.
@@KnifeChatswithTobias Sounds about right. When I compared them recently there was a slight but noticeable difference. I just bought a Case pocket worn whiskey bone CV muskrat and thought, "Hey, this is the same frame as my 6318 stockman." But nope -- looks very similar but slightly different. Anyway, very interesting channel and I plan to watch some more of your videos! (First muskrat I ever saw was a Rough Ryder. I found it quite appealing but wasn't sure if I'd like something with two identical blades. I bought it anyway. A while ago I found a Case muskrat in deep canyon jigged calypso bone and thought it was so striking and unique that I bought it. This past weekend I found my latest one and wanted to get it for the CV steel. I think I've gotten over my reservations about the blades!)
@@KnifeChatswithTobias By the way, here is a link to a thread about a Schatt & Morgan improved muskrat. 400 were produced, 100 each of four different bone covers. I have one of the fire oak versions. www.bladeforums.com/threads/schatt-morgan-improved-muskrat.599232/
@@KnifeChatswithTobias Just a bit more info for you, this is from Collecting Case Knives by Steve Pfeiffer: "Hawbaker's Special Muskrat: This version was made as a 'special factory order' or SFO knife for S. Stanley Hawbaker and Sons, a trapping supply company located in Pennsylvania... There were many variations of the 'Hawbaker's Special' pattern made from the Case XX era until 1982." (The book is available on Amazon in print and Kindle versions.)
@@WilliamParmley, thanks for the added info! I'll need t look into that book.
Love me some Muskrat .....
Tobias, any idea why the case muskrats do not have the pattern number stamp on their blades?
Case uses the #47 frame for its muskrat. This 3 7/8 in frame is used for a three blade stockman as well as a double end jack knife. They also make their bird hunter on the frame. The explanation I have always heard is that Case puts the pattern number on the secondary blade of the knife. And as technically, the Muskrat has two primary blades, there is no place for the pattern number.
But this is really this is a bit of a dodge to some degree
It is true, Case puts the pattern on the second blade on knives that have two or more blades.
So, for instance, a 47 pattern stag stockman and stag double end jack would be a 5347 Stockman and 5247 Jack.
And in theory they could name a Muskrat in Stag a 5247 and add an M after the number to designate a Muskrat. But as this blade would look identical to the main blade, it could inadvertently end up on the wrong knife.
So they choose not to add the pattern number to the muskrat style clip blade
Other 47 pattern knives with different secondary blades get pattern numbers.
At one time, Case would stamp Muskrats with the word “MUSKRAT” but I think this was stopped as it limited the blade possible use on other knives.
Also, you will sometimes find Muskrats with different dates ( for instance on clip blade will have 7 dots and another 4). This is because Case has been known to use existing stock of older blades on Muskrats so as not waste them.
Today, I think Case has made the decision not to give the Muskrat an official pattern number simply because of the lore behind the pattern.
I hope this helps.
❤Thank you! Great video BTW
I gotta save money.............. look another knife, lol, can’t wait to get one
My favorite knife pattern
You're not alone. I put it up there with the top five most popular traditional slip joint knives...
Trapper
Canoe
Stockman
Muskrat
Peanut
Thanks for doing this video.
Glad to do it. Thanks for visiting the channel.
I got a shade muskrat USA best pocket knife I have ever had
I am not a fan of multi blades on my knives, unless they are 2 different types. but this looks like a good piece either way,
I also would prefer multi-bladed knives to have different styles of blades. I get the philosophy of the muskrat but still not something I'd be carrying. Thanks for dropping by!
@@KnifeChatswithTobias No problem,
Hello Tobias. Do you know of any TH-cam videos of the folding muskrat in use? I can only see ones using an industrial type knife.
I'm not aware of any. I'll do some investigating.
That was a very interesting watch. Thank you.
Lars Buskkraft, thanks. I hope you found it useful.
A great video. I have been getting the urge to purchase one of these lately. I wonder how they fare for camp tasks, such as carving? They appear to me to be a little delicate.
The knife is essentially a medium toothpick with two blades. The plays are slender but functional, espeically for skinning small game. I don't think it is the best blade for woodworking.
@@KnifeChatswithTobias thanks, appreciate that tip!
I recently just got into wood carving and I tried using my Case Medium Stockman, and it was kind of difficult to do so. I tried all 3 blades, and the one I had the best luck with was the sheepsfoot which is a smaller blade. The blades are very thin and I think they are a bit delicate myself. I don't recommend these knives for carving unless maybe you're doing detail work. I mainly use mine for opening boxes and small things like that. For a good all around knife, I would recommend an Ontario Rat 2, or if you want a bigger size, the Rat 1 is a pretty good one too. Both of these come in around 40 dollars and are great for harder use. I have two and I haven't had any issues with anything I've needed to do with them
@@jacobj3236 the stockman is generally considered to be a decent patern for carving the clip blade can hog off a lot of material the spay is best modified to a warncliff for detail work and the sheep foot is pretty good for carving already. Case makes a pattern called the seahorse whittler that is pretty darn well designed for carving.
What’s the difference between the Case Muskrat vs the Case Trapper? Other than the blades on either end instead of side by side???
Trapper has a clip blade and a long spay blade.
Is there any difference between the Muskrat and the Moose pattern?
A good question. The Moose is normally a large frame knife and normally has the blades of a Trapper (Clip and Spay) but one on either end. From what I understand, the Moose was designed by none other than George W. (Nessmuk) Sears, the original bush-crafter! The Muskrat is its smaller cousin. The Hawbaker Special and smaller frame Moose knives are sometimes called a "MooseRats" because of how similar the blades are. A Moose normally does not have the serpentine handles but an equal end handle with a slight convex bend. Interesting enough you can also find early examples of both knives on an equal-end cigar handle.
I have spent many years studying the traditional pocket knives and the old American cutlery companies who made them extensively. I've bought & read all of the best books, searched up any & all articles ( both hard copy and online ), including interviews with retired master cutlers who actually made the knives in these factories back in the early 1900's. Sadly, they have all passed on, of course. The following is merely my opinion: I think MARKETING TACTICS were used in producing the first "Improved Muskrat" knives, and here's why: ANY knife that shares a single back spring with multiple blades (single back spring muskrat, stockman, whittlers, congress, half whittler, farmer's jack, etc. ) are far more difficult to produce vs the same pattern that has a single blade per spring, which means it takes more labor and time to accomplish. Those old single spring muskrat knives were made with far more precision, and much sleeker in design.This equates into higher production costs for the knife manufacturer. I am no 60 yrs old. Back when I was a kid, nearly all the men knew that you NEVER open both blades of a single spring knife at the same time. If you open the first blade all the way open, the tension on the spring is totally relieved, to allow opening the other blade WITHOUT the risk of breaking a spring. BUT YOU NEVER OPEN BOTH BLADES AT ONCE. ( As a side note: Dealers had the bad habit of partially opening all the blades at once, for display purposes in catalogs and display cases. ) This places too much tension on the spring, because you are bending BOTH ENDS of the spring AT THE SAME TIME. It's also the #1 reason for broken back springs. I believe the cost of adding the additional spring to a 2 bladed knife outweighs the cost of SKILL & LABOR TIME to produce a fine muskrat made with a single back spring. Cutlery history has proven time & time again, that as the years wore on for each cutlery company, they would eventually cut production costs by eventually producing knives with less quality, in addition to dropping HUNDREDS of classy knife patterns from their catalogs, leaving only a basic core line of working knives that were easier & much less costly to produce. I hold a lot of respect for Mr. Hawbaker.....but he was after all, selling & marketing those "Improved Muskrat" knives. Of course he was going to claim "they are improved". I challenge anyone to visit Great Eastern Cutlery, and ask the founder & master knife maker Bill Howard, which is easier and less costly to produce: a muskrat with 2 springs, or a fine muskrat that has only a single spring. Keep in mind, the finer, single back spring versions have back springs that are also slightly wider than a typical back spring for a single blade. I own many of both types as well. Just sayin'.
Was a muskrat knife part of the original nessmuk trio?
I believe a Moose like pattern was part of the Nessmuk trio. But I recall the blades being a clip and a spear point.
@@KnifeChatswithTobias Thanks!! I've been after the book for a while.
I have a Muskrat Ushanka,
Alexandru von Carstein Zarovich, cool!
Muy bomitas tengo una igual q la primera saludos de q ano som
Turkish clip
Would you rather skin a skunk or get sprayed by a skunk or smoke some skunk