@ the most basic lie I told myself was that Jesus was the only way to god. That's the one Christians push the most. However consider this. When you read the Bible it doesn't make sense, there are a lot of contradictions and other irregularities. So you are taught to read the Bible with discernment"" discernment in this case literally means the Bible is inerrant so if you do not understand the text, you are the problem not the bible, read it again until you stop becoming the problem. So you lie to yourself about the text and you confidently repeat those lies to others. One piece of text that caught me up was Matthew 17:20 which speaks of faith the size of a mustard seed. I knew I could not move a mountain with my faith. So my faith was far smaller than a mustard seed, I was obviously so unworthy. So I renegotiated the text to mean faith the size of a mustard seed was lot of faith. That's a lie. A mustard seed is the smallest living thing Matthew knew of. Jesus was literally giving every one a test. If you have but the tiniest amount of faith you can make a plant fruit or move a mountain. Give it a try one day and see how your faith stacks up.
The printing press led to the reformation 500 years ago. Today, another reformation is beginning, thanks to the internet. I’m thankful that we have such a means to fact check religious leaders.
The printing press led to the trope "a lie travels around the world five times before the truth puts on its shoes". Otherwiese neither Luther nor Calvin would have ever got off the ground.
The little Missionary Baptist Church my parents dragged me to almost split when they got a new "altar table." Once they saw that someone had inscribed it with "Do this in remembrance of me." [Luke 22:19] instead of the exact words of the KJV, "This do in remembrance of me." they fell into a huge, at times vicious, squabble about the switched words. Their fervent, ritual idolatry of the KJV was one thing that struck me as completely bonkers, reeking of _cognitive dissonance._ That gave rise to one phrase I've used about Evangelicals, and about Calvinists in general: *_Bible Idolatry._* Of course, that can be extended to conditions in other religions as _Scriptural Idolatry,_ when the words, themselves, become more important than the meaning behind the words.
Baptists Trinity - father, son, and holy Bible. The rub is that our Christian theology is a synthesis of Greek Platonism and 2nd temple Jewish apocalypticism and yet none of our childhood churches would ever permit this kind of history of philosophy, their origin story is Victorian, Moody is their version of Clement, Spurgeon is their Irenaeus, all these wacky Victorian evangelists are their church fathers, so as a curious student I was like wait, our actual faith is rooted in apostolic practice, the Septuagint, Greek vocab, mysticism, deduction, and appropriation of Jewish texts, and that is all so glorious and developed and glued together in the patristic material, but here we are doing heretical middle class Gnosticism with escapist trap doors everywhere we look, and no humility or meekness, just dopey American salesman theory.
I'm Jewish, grew up studying the Bible in Hebrew, so it's even crazier to me that they're fighting over the wording in a translated text. More broadly, I think taking the Bible literally and taking it seriously are not only different, they're mutually exclusive. Reading it literally means reducing it from Scripture into a science book or a history book.
There was a Baptist church in my hometown that split up over the type of musical notes used in a song book. Another local church had some members who had a doctrinal disagreement about something, so to settle it they brought shotguns to church the next week.
When I was a child, I remember saying "...when I get to heaven", and my dad corrected me with "IF you get to heaven'. I was 8. I was absolutely terrified about ending up in hell because I wasn't a good enough christian. Humans in general have no comprehension of eternity, let alone children who simply cannot understand the difference between fact and faith, and therefore having no ability to make informed decisions about religion.
Your father told you what someone he trusted told him. It can have one of two end results other than the unspeakable harm already done. It can destroy your spiritual journey, or it can help you continue to grow, and learn of the Great Spirit and vow to do everything in your power not to harm another fellow sojourner. God bless you, my friend, from someone who has been there.
@@rutha1464it sounds like you know my father better than I do as you seemed to have jumped to some wild conclusion about why he said that and what his intentions were. I think you might be projecting your story on to mine.
When I was a teen, the pastor and his wife of the church I attended, an Assembly of God, were the most cheerful loving people I've ever known in my life. I went to church three times a week, because I enjoyed being around them. As an adult, over time I began to have doubts about what I was taught about the Bible, and one of the hardest things to overcome was to accept that my pastor and his wife didn't really tell me the truth. I simply had to conclude that they were delightfully deluded. They truly believed what they taught, and it made them happy. They believed they were making a positive difference in people's lives, and I think for the most part they did. But one has to wonder that people, like me, enjoyed being around them, and we hoped to have what they had. Nevertheless, through years of thought and study, I simply had to reject the idea that the Bible was the inerrant word of God. Strangely, when I reached that point, I actually felt more at peace, because my mind had been conflicted for decades. There's more to my story, but that's enough for now.
@harrydecker8731Thanks for sharing your story. It raises another point, that there can be some goodness in it too. It's tough to get the nuance in a video like this. OR the goodness can have a ulterior motive. It's complicated I guess.
Beautiful ❤ i'm experiencing the having genuinely good people who are delightfully deluded in my life right now .Just got a call frok my pastor who was checking up on me hehe
Point 5 is the most painful one. The manipulation and pressure to transform younglings was ever present during my service in church. It was the gold standard by which my ministry was publicly judged by pastors, elders, and even parents. My last posting I took a radically different approach which was to work with each student where he or she was in their journey. Encouraged questions and helped them to learn how to study Bible and seek truth for themselves. It didn't take the teens long to recognize the controlling hypocrisy of the adults.
@@lightwinsoverdarkness 100 %. It's the one thing I still feel personal guilt about for my Ministry. Believing that getting kids saved was more important than even respecting the wishes of them or their parents
Very interesting! Your fifth point reminded me of something: I'm 72 and from about 14-17 I was deeply involved in the Nazarene Church, and evangelical group. The Nazarenes held something called an "altar call". After the sermon, they'd be a final hymm, and while singing it the preacher was going "Come to Jesus! Don't turn him away, because you never now was the next moment will bring. Come down and ask for God to save you at the altar right now, before it's too late. You don't want to allow Satan to get ahold of you and torment you forever.." Altar calls were terrifying for me, an introvert that didn't want to walk down a church aisle and kneel at an altar while everyone was watching. Yet the hymn, which was usually a pleading sort of thing, and the preacher could make this a seriously awful situation. There was one kid, I think about 7 or 8, that went to the altar EVERY SINGLE ALTAR CALL. Even at the time I recognized that she must live her life in abject terror that she'll do something wrong between altar calls, and die and go to hell. And I wonder what effect that sort of ritual, continual trauma had on her as she grew older.
I spent many years in a Pentecostal church system, starting in my early teens. I left the church eventually, but have carried the emotional, psychological and spiritual scars with me ever since. I have had great therapists, and a lot of support from friends and family. I'm very glad I am where and who I am today - my church experience made me question everything, which has ultimately been a wonderful approach to life. But I *really* could have done without years of absolutely hating myself and my body for simply being a regular teenaged body and self. Children need to be kept away from toxic theology the same way they need to be kept away from gasoline, open flames and komodo dragons. Evangelical minds need to twist into the most bizarre contortions in order to make sense of the innumerable contradictions and false statements in the Bible. Putting that mental torture aside was one of the first gifts of leaving the church. And there have been so many others. Thank you for your clarity and heart.
@@ericlanebarnes thank you so much for taking the time to share this. I look around and so many of the people who grew up in it are unpacking it. Finding spirituality has been wonderful for me in the long run, but I spent a decade as an atheist
Really happy to see you talk about the anxiety over salvation. I was constantly worried if I was saved or not. And then to have the pastors hound at you that we are POS’s added to the anxiety. And absolutely agree that Christian’s that encourage ppl to question their belief. But then get upset or try to humiliate you because you ended up with a different belief. Aren’t actually encouraging critical thinking. It’s still behaving like a cult.
@@penttimuhli9442 There is also a bit of complexity here, since this discussion is mixed with the disciples question about the temple. You have to read the gospels otherwise it becomes only one sentence there and one there.
@@CJFCarlsson Did Jesus tell the disciples that they will see the sign of his second coming in the first century? Nothing to do with what you are referring to in relation John, Peter and Paul.
@ In the olivet discourse Jesus outlines all of the events that will take place, including his appearance in the sky. He told the disciples "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place". So all the events, the wars and rumors of war, the temple and his second appearing were all meant for the first century
Bravo Chris well spoken. From what I've observed of many Christian churches, the lay people are rarely given an opportunity question important biblical scriptures. Pastors /ministers are reluctant to tell the congregation that there are issues with certain (many) verses such as the differences in Jesus' birth narrative and problematic Christian proof texts which don't align with the OT. Even if the group does have a bible study group, the lay people are simply told what to believe and don't question us. Another observation I've noted, many new Christian recruits seem to have issues in their lives, often with health and mental issues. Terminal illnesses and reformed criminals are examples. Their belief is, if they turn to Christ they with be saved.
Very true. There's probably something important here, I do think church can be a wonderful home for people who are hurting. But hopefully not by manipulating and bullying them
I experienced the same things when I attended church. We could never question what the pastor or Sunday school leader said. I rarely questioned anything, but then again, I usually forgot all about the sermon an hour after walking out the door. Now that I've given up church, I'd welcome the chance to learn and discuss in an honest and open environment.
Lot of people (like me) really wanted to get to know God better, so we set ourselves up to leave the faith by becoming more educated about Early Christianity. Then, once we got more understanding about how the Bible was really written, is when many people realized that it was all make-believe. That's what happened to me. I read the Bible to get to know God better, but after reading more of the text, you realize that it's just a religion like all of the other world's faiths. Nothing special.
When I heard "We don't have a religion, we have a personal relationship with God" I was impressed. It was one thing that led me to becoming a Christian. As you say, looking back on it. It was in fact a religion
I find it telling that many Pastors, Evangelists and Apologists are either willing to intentionally misrepresent facts, or they choose to remain ignorant of things they are speaking about because they don't want to risk discovering the truth. Even though they claim they have the "truth", they generally have little interest if their "truth" is actually true.
@@1970Phoenix that's true. I want to think more about how these churches create leaders as well. It's often men who do have some natural leadership ability, but also a very high desire for affirmation. And it's a tough relationship, because even pastors who don't toe the line get fired by their congregations.
I'm 60 and I grew up the same way you did. To be honest, I'm still dealing with the trauma of spiritual abuse. I just subscribed. Thank you for your channel.
The message of religion is that you are never good enough, you don’t understand, and whatever the problem is, it’s your fault. What better way to get control.
Yep, that’s textbook emotional abuse. It’s exactly how abusive husbands turn their wives into craven, obedient husks. And this is still being done to children everywhere.
Fear is the easiest way to control people---fear of hell, a place of ultimate eternal punishment (that can't be demonstrated) is a sure fire ticket to mind control
Very true ! And neither can heaven be proved either !! And " eternal life " ! Most people are scared to die , and therefor the above sound wonferfull !
Atheist here. Love your attitude to religion and faith. I think anyone, believer or non believer, theist or atheist who can make sense of religion and faith - needs to be encouraged. Society and humanity suffer when religion goes mad.
One only needs to look at the deeply dysfunctional U.S. or UK to see the terrible harm caused to a society when the religious have any influence in society..
@@cjohnyrun - Your 'attitude' to 'religion' is based on protestant heresies and lies. Of COURSE you were 'lied' to, the thousands of protestant sects are NOT part of the Church. However they can be full of good people.
Trying to be a better Christian by openly admitting I didn't know if Catholocism was right, and reading the Bible to find out is why I'm now an atheist.
unfortunately, out of all religions, atheism is the most stupid (because it's so easy to refute) and most dangerous (because it does not value life). nice job
just cuz your church was stupid doesn't mean that Christianity is false, just like if you have a bad math teacher that can't explain the subject it doesn't mean math is false. Jesus died for YOU not for some business that calls itself a church. Read the Bible yourself and ask God for understanding for the next 6 months and see then what you think.
I learned that believing without proof is the same as lying to yourself, I actually DO beleive now from personal experience but I'm glad I have parents that taught me to ask questions
I am 65 years old. I left Pentecostal/Evangelical Fundamentalism 34 years ago, but the truth be told, I had already stopped believing much of what I was being told from the pulpit long before I stopped attending. I didn't so much "deconstruct" (that word wasn't in use back then), as I "redirected." I discovered my spiritual home in the Episcopal Church (now I'm a priest), and within the structure of the liturgy discovered an expansive theology that spoke way more about the ethics of living than the fear of hell. I wholeheartedly agree with you about biblical inerrancy and "saving" children. Those were the most damaging lies I was told, and for sure I lost lots of sleep as a kid worrying about being orphaned because of the (unbiblical) Rapture. Thanks for spreading the word that one doesn't need to leave the Faith to leave Evangelical/Fundamentalism.
67 year old former Evangelical/Charismatic here. Grew up in the Spanish speaking Church. Trying my best to decolonize my faith. Still love Jesus, finding some refuge and healing in a local Anglican Church! Would love to connect somehow! Thanks for the video!
@@DeveloperChris it's more accurate to say that most of the Bible's authors believed in a flat earth, but that Isaiah explicitly refers to the Earth as a chug (ball) given Isaiah's advanced education (royal connections/nobility) - it is not impossible that the most literate in society knew that the planet wasn't flat. Mind you, it wouldn't be from "God" but rather from earlier scientific investigations in Egypt and Sumer.
True, but I (many of us) was indoctrinated from infancy that questioning that would cause your soul to burn in hell for eternity. It took decades of reason to completely get past that brain washing.
@RueveGoldStein1 Which is to say the bible contains contradictions which render it obsolete. If we can't rely on the creator of the universe to get details about his own creation right, I'd suggest there is a niggling chance that he wasn't the creator of the universe.
I was told by a clergyman that I was allowed to ask questions. A few questions later, it became apparent that he didn't actually mean I could ask any questions, only the questions that he had readymade apologetic answers for. And no follow-up questions either.
It’s a mind job when your doubts and questions get so serious they lead you to the point of believing you’ve committed the unforgivable sin or that you’re an anti-Christ. I went through so dark times over the past 10yrs questioning my faith while reading scripture as if it was talking directly to or about me. Not even sure how to describe or label my experience. Thankfully been studying the history behind the scripture and realizing all the Jewish and Roman mythology behind it all.
Came from a soft bible Anglican church and i will never forget the two priests Father Black and Father Peters. Love and fellowship was always the main message. In Alexandria, VA many of the churches have this approach. They have abandoned the concepts of atonement and original sin, celebrate diversity. The point is to develop a loving community.
The thing I'm learning in my deconstruction is that most religions work in absolutes and black and white. Life absolutely is not that way whatsoever. Once you see the truth of how many errors of the Bible there are YOU CANNOT UNSEE IT! "When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."- anonymous
Well, life is actually quite often black and white. It puts you on the spot to do this or not, to do that or not. Dissolving this into grey is a cowardly, lazy response. "The many error of the Bible" only exist to the fundamentalist (who has to deny any tension) or to the reverse fundamentalist scoffer (who relishes in them to reject it all).
@@str.77 it's a dichotomy isn't it. Making everything black and white is a recipe for stupidity and fundamentalism. Making everything gray is a recipe for wishy washy I guess. But unfortunately with faith and spirituality, it's more grey than anything else. And people who try to make it black and white are often wrong or lying
It is faith after all but not faith in faith but faith in what, that is important. Frank Turek has said, "I don't have enough faith to be an athiest. "
“The apostles were eyewitnesses, and they went to their deaths refusing to recant. They wouldn’t die for a lie!” Except they weren’t and didn’t, when you look into it.
Well, we don't know for certain the end of all the Apostles but we do know about enough to know that your conclusion is wrongheaded. They were and they did.
I am still very much a Christian and still part of the evangelical world, but I have learned a lot about church history and it made me so much more optimistic. As far as your last point, I was pretty religiously traumatized by antichrist, hell, eternity, etc. I had panic attacks thinking of all the people burning in hell. I used to pray Satan got saved and I was always trying to save my friends so they wouldn't go to hell. I was about 7. I think the idea of how we teach original sin is incorrect and how we view some doctrines.
@GuessWhoAsks I used to think that everyone who didn't believe exactly like me was not a Christian. Nobody taught me that but I just thought it. I was raised with a strong belief in revelation being futuristic and all the symbolism was literal. I have since learned about church history and the theological beliefs that accompany history. People have always struggled with questions and so much of what they were going through shaped their theological beliefs. I have learned that there are so many Christians in the world. We all believe a little differently and those differences only make it interesting. There are certain core beliefs that are not negotiable but other secondary beliefs are.
@@erinl1265 Thanks for the reply. Not sure why it posted the question twice, but I deleted the extra and am sorry that I still need clarification as your reply does not actually answer the question I asked. You are statinging that you have now learned about "church history and the theological beliefs that accompany history", but that does not explain your usage of the term... "optimistic" and how it relates to "church history". Can you explain what you are "optimistic" about in relation to "church history", or was "optimistic" the wrong term used to convey your meaning?
@@GuessWhoAsks optimism in the sense that the world wasn't as bad as I previously thought. There are way more Christians that what I used to think. More people are saved. I used to think catholics and episcopal etc were not real Christians. I realized that none of us really know everything. We are all learning and growing and discovering. I think God has so much more grace and mercy for us. We are all trying to serve him to the best of our ability.
Glad I found your channel, you use common sense and your education to give such thoughtful and rational explanations that so many of us have struggled with and have questioned ourselves.
@@williamtotherow3367 thank you for saying this. It's sort of what I envisioned when I started, but I didn't know how it would go. I really appreciate this encouragement 🙏
Left Christianity 10 years ago when I started reading Greek,Sumerian and Egyptian mythology and realized the Bible literally copied it.And also reading the horrific stuff your church ignores or priests or pastors also ignore
Been there done that. But the Hebrew literature didn’t really just copy it, they riff on it. So it’s a subtle jab to us, but a blatant jab way back then. Kind of like Hosea 1:4 jabbing at 2 Kings 9-11, the Hebrews also jabbed at their own earlier authors, Essenes jab at Zadokites, Pharisees at Sadducees, prophets at priests, Jesus at all of them. When you see the Bible as a library of insults and corrections leading a wrestler to humility before the ground of our being, then it makes our arrogant fundamentalist pastors look like the kind of dim wits who Jesus jabs in every single parable. Turns out Jesus was an excellent social critic as well.
The circle of life, repeating the same old stories to new generations to gain wisdom and knowledge from them. Man is between the spiritual mind and the carnal mind, snoozing between the two, whereas Adam is dead to the world in the garden dreaming of a world without the hand of the Father.
or, different cultures documenting same history thru their own eyes but not really seeing the whole picture and the Bible thru God's eyes. if you and i observe the same thing we would write a similar story, doesn't mean we copied each other. can't get around the provable fact the Jesus lived, was holy, died, and resurrected. other figures form other cultures w similar claim have zero evidence that they even existed. plz tell me you're not an atheist, cuz that is the easiest religion to refute, not to mention it is stupid and dangerous.
@Yes, it’s Satan speaking to Eve and asking, “Has God really said ‘you shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”. God had spoken his Word to Adam/Eve and then Satan came into the garden and casted doubt by telling Eve that God really didn’t say what he said. This video uses the same tactic and it clearly goes against the plain reading of scripture. Questioning Biblical truths as “lies” makes me think of “another Jesus” Paul warns about in 1st Corinthians 11.
@m.gattus-reinhart845 2nd Corinthians 11:3 - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Revelation 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
@matt6573 What's absolutely amazing here is that I or others who understand the Bible on a critical and scholarly level are the one's who are trying to deceive you, but it's never those who are closest to you. PS The thing in the tree never lied or deceived, Adam or Eve. There was no serpent in the tree, God turned it into a commonly known as a serpent after the fact. Perhaps reading it sometime. The later half of 1 Corinthians 13 says to put away your childish ways. I have perhaps so should you.
I'm grateful to the TH-cam algorithm for dropping this into my internet feed. When I was young I was a strong believer and at two points was heading towards full time ministry but there were many things which didn't feel right. I have been an atheist for over 30 years. The internet has gradually renewed my interest in studying in greater depth the Bible, the history of the Christian Church, and it's doctrines and practices. I've become a bit of a nerd. I also have hundreds of books. I now know far more now than I ever did as a believer. Why have I become an amateur "expert"? (I use the word "expert" in a very light way. I don't have lots of degrees and PhD s.) I believe that the religious virus needs to be countered because of the harm it does. It damages our children and affects (infects) almost every aspect of the world we live in. Knowledge is power and the internet is the most important weapon we have in the 21st Century to fight this iron age nonsense. Voices like yours are so important. Thanks for doing what you do.
Point five: It’s not just evangelicals who do this. In my sorta Presbyterian family I was steeped in the story from a very early age. Mealtime and bedtime prayers, Sunday school lessons, etc , all designed to imprint right ideas. (I also grew up in the postwar, Billy Graham era where even pop culture picked up the theme. I’m gonna write a piece on that. Someday.)
There are those of us Christians who take the whole of the Bible as authoritative--believing it intelligently, so that we believe with. Mind/intellect, Heart/devotion, and Will/properly shaped obedience.
Thank you so much for this commentary. I grew up in a traditional Baptist Church. Later in life, I became an evangelical. I am 60 years old now, and I am in the process of "reconstructing" my faith, not deconstructing. Videos like yours help me understand and articulate the struggles that I have with my faith. I don't want to abandom my faith. I want to reformulate it so that I can have true peace and joy.
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. You can rebuild a meaningful faith life AND discuss complex theological issues openly and honestly without having to tie a pretty bow on it.
Great talk. I was raised in an extended fundamentalist evangelical family (Plymouth Brethren or Baptist) and life was a series of rules well summed by the saying ‘everything is forbidden except if it is compulsory’. The late Jerry Falwell Snr was an occasional preacher in our church so you get the flavor. In my family TV and radio were only for news bulletins and Christian services and the only accepted bible was the KJV and later the NIV was added and as I have learned from Dan McClennan the NIV was very deliberately translated to produce a modern Bible that reinforces fundamentalist views of the Bible - in other words it’s a deliberate mistranslation. I ‘escaped ‘ by being good at academics and so went to university and to medical school. At first I joined a hip popular church near campus that had lots of students and a young pastorate (all in their 30’s), there was lots of good music and a free flowing form the services. The church was an early plant of what is nowadays the Hillsong group. However I soon realised that it was just as rigidly controlled as the church I grew up in and in some way worse. The Hillsong movement (and similar) believes that we are in the last times as in Joel 3 v1 and following. A time they say that there are new Apostles not merely pastors or ministers but apostles who speak for God and so are making new truth for this age. To disagree or to challenge the church leadership is “as witchcraft”. I stopped attending after hearing that and in fact never went back to membership of a church although I attend my mother’s Baptist church on occasions when with family. I do get asked why don’t you join us? I reply with Amos 3 v3 “Do two people travel together unless they have first agreed to do so?’ I honestly cannot agree with much of the teachings of that church
I applaud your honesty and courage. My guiding principle has been: question everything, free yourself from ignorance end superstition. The source of that is religion itself.
Thanks for an honest sharing of your experience. In spite of your even keeled tone, it’s evident that you felt a lot of justified frustration. Might I suggest some books in case you haven’t already read them? The first is “Verbum Dei”, a Vatican II document that outlines the Catholic approach to Biblical interpretation. The second is “Crossing the Tiber” by Stephen Ray. Good luck on your continuing journey.
I was raised in an assembly of God church until my family slowly stopped going when I was a teenager. I met some people in college that had a campus ministry, and I started going back to church. In 2016 I started noticing some things in the Bible that contradicted what "mainstream" christians call "foundational beliefs/doctrines." The first one was the trinity. I slowly read through the whole NT and noted every verse that mentioned the Father, Son, and spirit. I was thoroughly convinced the trinity was not biblical just half way through that study. The Bible is super clear in some places about the Father being the only true God and being the God of Jesus. After months of searching the internet, I finally found Biblical Unitarians, who believe the same thing. I spent the next 6(?) years studying the Bible more and finding that half of what "mainstream" christians think is "foundational" is actually not found anywhere in the Bible. It's crazy to me how bad eisegesis is in mainstream christianity. I realized that everyone in church is subconsciously taught to read their beliefs into the Bible all over the place. Even "smart" apologists/theologians do it. I had to unlearn that thought pattern/behavior because it affected how I read everything else in life. I also found out that they spread a false narrative of christian history, either intentionally or out of ignorance. Evangelical fundamentalism clashing against facts has caused a ton of people to either: A) Refuse to give up their beliefs and just live with cognitive dissonance and/or ignore the contradictions they see; B) Refuse to give up their beliefs and compromise by becoming Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, since those don’t base their doctrines solely on the Bible; C) Become biblical unitarian; C) Leave christianity entirely. Biblical Unitarianism is still a sliver of the population, but it has been growing a lot in the last 5 years.
Wow , some excelent points of dangers of fundamentalism and some evangelico doctrines. I relate to many of your points. Blessings ! PTL for your video.
I am a Roman Catholic and I love the rituals and think they can be important and helpful. In my mind, the issue is when they are made too important, almost like they are the end goal and not a means to the end. No religion is perfect, though, and mine is not an exception. (Also I was away from the church for decades, so I probably do see things from a very different perspective than most Catholics. )
For me, when I quit believing, it was one of the best feelings ever. Because I realized that I didn't have to worry about "going to hell", and that I didn't have to self-moderate my own thoughts. Kindof like living in the book Fahrenheit 451, you have to make sure you don't let others know what you are really thinking; it has to be disguised. Similarly, I feared constantly that God was waiting and wanting to strike me down if I even questioned him. Because I used to fear that (yes, I swear that this is crazy) God would strike me down DEAD if I even wondered if He was real, so I had to cheat a tiny bit (here & there) about if He was just kindof different than He said. So, if you questioned Him, you would have to do it (like "my Friend was thinking this or that"), then He couldn't get you for being the bad one. [Granted, this is kindof hard to discuss and explain, but it's something that I lived, growing up Baptist in the South of the US.]
I grew up in a non-denominational church where one person had said he thought it was more of a Brethren church, so probably similar to you. But, I had always questioned (but I feared voicing it) the existence of a god from my youngest age. The religion probably, that's an understatement, has affected me in unpleasant ways. 99% of them were YEC, young earth creationists. I became atheist after highschool graduation in 2010, due in large part to TH-cam, actually.
The Protestant reformation was all about “personal interpretation” of scripture. Well personally, I interpret this book is a combination of some historical facts and mythology.
I left evangelical church some 8 years ago. I have come to a place where I think there is a place for healthy evangelical churches (there are still some very damaging ones). I am also optimistic to see more evangelical churches focusing more on service vs evangelizing.
The biggest lie for me, was the lost burning in hell for all eternity. Hell is a pagan concept that doesn't belong in the Bible or religion. I discovered this after researching the early history of the church and learning the true meanings of Hebrew and Greek words such as; Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, nephesh, basanizo, aionian, kolasis, thelo and elko just to name a few.
Not everyone in "church" are Christians. Even Jesus said this (Matt 7:22-25) Many have learned Christianity but have never been converted in their hearts as a result of a revelation.
Currently one year into my deconstruction from evangelicalism and the hardest thing is getting my wife to understand why I no longer agree with the things our last church believed despite her acknowledging that particular church also gave her trauma and insecurity over her validity as a follower of Jesus.
just because some church teaches heresy doesn't mean the Bible is false. i stopped going to church and since then my faith in Jesus has been continuously strengthening, primarily because i started reading the Bible myself and praying to God to give me understanding - and He has. Vast majority of today's churches don't even know the Biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ; they're businesses and have stealthily modified the Gospel in a way helps them syphon more money out of the congregates. I would say probably a good thing that you left the church, but don't leave your faith in Jesus Christ!
@ I deconstructed from evangelicalism, not from Christianity or Jesus altogether at least. Unfortunately some intermingle the two when they’re different
It's their job to lie to you. They have a narrative they want you to believe some of which they don't really believe themselves. They know that a lot of it shouldn't be taken literally but tell their congregation to take it literally.
What I don't understand is as youth I watch American TV including Laugh-In and listen Chics and Cong @@PaulHosey-u3l How are folk so easily duped ... It seems like they were disconnected from their own culture.
Excellent video. All points so well made. I’ve moved from fundamentalism to being a progressive Christian and I’ve never frlt more free and closer to God.
That is such an interesting question. Marcion priority is still a hypothesis, but that's an interesting idea. We only know that Marcion had Luke (or vice versa if you believe the theory).. Not Acts. but it's a curious thing. But there's so much interesting work being done on this problem right now
I went to a conservative Presbyterian church for two years with two services on the Sunday and the minister preached the same sermon week in, week out and that sermon was, “Are you sure that you are saved?” The weird thing here is that this was a Westminster Confession of Faith kind of a church.
The biggest lie, IMO, is the notion of taking the gospel stories LITERALLY. IMO this was never the intent of the authors, but became status quo once the original generation of believers who were mostly Jewish died off, and the converts from the Gentiles began to re-interpret these texts as being actual history. Now we are stuck with what amounts to fairy tales being preached as historical truth, no wonder the church is in a total mess of conflict.
I grew up Southern Baptist in the 60's. As the SBC goes we were pretty moderate. I got involved with fundamentalism in the 70's mainly because of contemporary Christian music. Went to a Bill Gothard seminar and went off the deep end. I managed to get away from that. (Long story) felt called to be a pastor, got my BA in Christian studies, went to Baptist seminary. I had some mental health problems and my life fell apart, and I was seriously questioning things in the church. Wound up leaving seminary and the church. Fast forward a few years, I joined a very liberal mainline church. Felt called back to be a pastor,this time in the ELCA. Went back to seminary at 40 and graduated with an M Div. Pastored a small rural parish in North Dakota for 16 years. The pandemic changed all that. My last call was a disaster, and my deconversion started seriously during that time. Basically it was looking at science and suffering that made Christianity un tenable for me. Fortunately I was old enough to retire so I didn't have to fake it very long. It's been a couple years and I'm still figuring it out. That was almost as long as some of my sermons 😂😇
Approx. 1971, a lady Sunday School teacher plain shocked me with her take on “be ye not unequally yoked”. It was a rural Midwest farm area 100% white. She taught we kids that meant we should avoid interracial relationships. Even at that young age, I immediately knew that was wrong. Unequally yoked I thought was non-Christian married to a Christian. It was shocking to hear her teach that. Kids were raised to not think we had rights, dare not speak up and question an adult in such a situation. I surely would object and why now.
I was captured by Baptists at a young age. Funny how something can be like a pebble in your shoe. At one point it occurred to me that the writers of the Bible would have been confused by that since they only had experience with sandals. People not knowing what a shoe was became a symbol of their ignorance about everything and made what they had to say seem trivial and irrelevant 1500 years later. Today I like the occasional quote just as I like one from ancient Rome or Greece. It is our culture. I kind of think that you may be right about the lack of importance for inerrancy of the Bible because building a belief system from your favorite passages is what every Christian does, inerrant Bible or not.
This exactly, is what I've been trying to explain my whole life. Thank you for artuculating so well. For the first time in so long, i know that someone else gets it.
Well said. You nailed the important issues. I have never seen anyone discuss problems with raising children in such a tradition, and this is a crux issue.
"It's a relationship, not a religion", this one bugs me. At best, one can reply "okay, you can see it as a relationship, and you may honestly experience it that way, but at no point does it cease to be religion also." All forms of Christianity fit the definitions of religion. It doesn't stop being that because it's the religion someone believes to be true.
I'm open to the idea that the Bible isn't inerrant, but I've never been intellectually satisfied with the assertion that inerrancy and textual contradictions are mutually exclusive.
"The Bible doesn't need to be inerrant." There it is. I have long felt that evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity has noting to do with the purpose of religion. E/F Christianity is all about issues of power and control. It appeals to people who have a deep anxiety about the ambiguity that is basic to our human condition. Ironically, it's only thorough surrendering to this ambiguity that any salvation can be found.
On the "constant anxiety" issue, there is a certain irony that that branch of denominations that insists that you cannot lose your salvation creates this, while those denominations (which you mentioned) that hold that you can, don't. The root might be, that if you supposedly cannot lose your salvation but obviously have, then this means that you never had it in the first place.
@@str.77 that's an interesting observation. I do think it makes sensei, I've certainly had a lot of people even on the channel tell me I wasn't saved in the first place. I think it helps people make sense of it. While the Pentecostals can just rededicate their life every week
When those types of Calvinists tell me I never was saved I remind them that perhaps they aren't saved either and ask how they'd feel about God if their loved ones weren't "chosen".
Yeah, I see this now, too. "Once saved = always saved (no matter how sinful you think you are)" implies "Finally damned = always damned (no matter how saved you think you are)." Oh, the humanity! :-D
That is correct. I have been a follower of Christ/born again/spirit filled believer for 34 years. It all happened in one moment in time. I have not been lost for even two minutes in 34 years. The Holy Spirit within us is the assurance of our salvation. The tricky thing about being filled with the Holy Spirit is this? You can only know if you’re born again if you are born again. Most people are false converts. I attend a church where we’re pumping out false converts every week. generally, they refer to themselves as a Christian. Claiming a title does not save you.
@@Philthefisherofmen I'm afraid I disagree with you. Of course, it depends on which verses of the Bible (NT) you choose to adopt and which you choose to ignore. Do you have an Arminian understanding of Biblical Salvation, or Calvinist? I believe that under both systems, but especially Calvinist, many will completely believe that they are Saved and that they have the internal witness of the Holy Spirit, but that they are fooling themselves. May I respectfully ask you: How do you know truly that it actually IS the Holy Spirit witnessing to you and not 'something else'?
Christian guy here who wants a relationship with God, whom I believe is merciful and loving. I'm still trying to heal the damage from my stint with fundamentalist doctrine. On some levels, I'm not sure where to look. Passages in the Bible were weaponized in such a way that have produced constant anxiety for me. Biblical inerrancy doesn't seem possible to me--that is, I am unable to reconcile the dichotomy and contradictions in what I'm reading. This has been difficult for me to accept, as the concept of inerrancy was enforced so strongly, that to deny inerrancy was positioned as defying and rejecting God. So at every turn, as I'm trying to develop my relationship with God, I'm being told that I am rejecting Him--that I'm sinful and he has given me over to my own sinful nature.
@timtriolo4421 - Read St. Augustine - ALL of his writings and not just 'Protestant-quote-mining' excerpts. Took me 53 years to get there, and finally to a trust and faith in God that truly overcomes death. Sin results from fear - it's fear you need to attack and eliminate!
Oh no no no. In Catholocism you've committed a mortal sin if you miss one weekend mass with no excuse and have damaged your connection to God unless you've gone to confession and told a priest. While holding a mortal sin, your salvation is not assured and if you partake in catholic rituals such as communion while with mortal sin, it is said you are tainting everyone and adding to your pile of mortal sin you must confess. It caused me great anxiety. I thought I was going to hell because I took a bingo chip from my kindergarten classroom (though I don't remember doing it) until I was in 9th grade and reasoned I wasn't old enough to have the intent to make that sin mortal, so it was venial. You are right about how a lot of people live, but above is what the church teaches. In my opinion the only reason people/priests/the church itself doesn't push back on these people more is because they realize a large number of them would just tell them off and leave the religion in w/e capacity they still remained. Even if it's just being able to count nonpracticing catholics as a number, I think the church wants to do it.
If one can believe the earth is is 6,000 years old by Biblical inference, then it seems a believer would be so sufficiently committed to Christ's explicit statements as to believe them with practiced application.
Thanks Chris. Appreciate the video. You really think turning up for church for funerals and weddings is a good demonstration of a NT Christian? I hear what you are saying although I kinda get why a church doesn’t want someone involved if they are contradicting the pastor every week 😂😂😂 if you disagree - no problem, but please stop the persecution complex 😊😮 you’re sounding like us!!
Im not an atheist but I'm in the process of a painful deconstruction 😢 i still go to church i am the drummer in praise and worship team and i enjoy playing and the congratulations us not large so we're a nice community thats what keeps me going.
The thing they don't tell you is that you can find a nice community outside of churches, too. It's more work to find because other types of groups don't get the tax breaks or the cultural normalization, but it's out there.
@@mynorgonzalez2625 That’s cool. Hopefully they’re secure enough in their faith that they’ll involve musicians who don’t share their exact beliefs. A lot of churches do, but some communities feel threatened by people who aren’t exactly like themselves.
@ I’m all about being kind and loving to people, treating others as I would want to be treated, etc. I read and studied the Bible since I was 18 truly believing it to be the inspired and inerrant word of god. Of course I had a lot of questions but pretty much accepted the apologetic answers. While I would like to remain friends with my Christian friends I can’t see myself actually going to church. It’s too much of a business and the head pastor is looked at like he has some special relationship with god while taking 10 percent of the income from young struggling families. It also creates an “us vs them” mentality and your church is right and the other churches aren’t. I just can’t. I see more harm than good.
Hi man, before reading other comments, I'd like to say that I really have the same thoughts on 'we preach relation above religion'. I've been to an evangelical movement in the Netherlands, which uses exactly the same words, yet expect you to behave a certain way. Not only outside of church but also within. Outside meaning: you have to preach the gospel and you have to tithe. These are the things regularly driven home by the preachers. It's never about God, neither about Jesus, but about them- and ourselves. Ultimately, they know you're unhappy and preach salvation, yes rather a way to salvation. Preach and tithe. Inside of church, they expect you to be happy, 'worship' whenever it's their time, stand up, close your eyes (in honor to God and your fellow), which all is religion. It's not based in scripture either. They want to conform you to their things, so that they can boast in disciple counts. Let me tell you this, they're fd. On the other hand, I still fail to understand your deepest desire. Is it to say anything godly/towards God will do, or do you have some boundaries anywhere. Life without God doesn't exist, neither loving God beyond Jesus. For we have all sinned and lack the glory of God, ourselves. But through faith in Jesus (whatever that may mean) we have eternal life. You see, in scripture the way of salvation is still evident - maybe for the seeer only, but it is in there. A Christian ultimately seeks to understand other's utterances in the Bible. If we experience a situation in which we would express ourselves in scripture verses, I suppose we have reached the level of the author and thus the meaning of the utterance. If we take words from scripture and run with it in our understanding, you get evangelicals or Jehova's witnesses. I don't have a problem with either of them, for I know as a protestant, we had such episodes in our past as well. Nor will I condemn either of them, for ultimately they seek to please their Lord. So many thoughts, yet too many to go into too much detail. I wish you well and wish you kindness, for we only live through Christ. Everybody and everyone. There's no doubt on that. God bless. (and if you're not worthy, the blessing will return to me) God bless.
It always puzzles me that people who apparently have little trust in the Scripture want to hang on to “religion”. If the Scripture wasn’t true and trustworthy, there would not be any reason to cling to Christianity. Your “religion” would be as relevant as any other belief, therefore it would be irrelevant.
I remember that fear of never being good enough to be saved---not enough faith, not enough works---tho most of my life was taken up with working in the church. So altho an elder, leader, and bible studier, I decided that i must study more to become a better christian and that's how I lost my belief and faith---deeper study without blinders of faith exposed how ridiculous that 'god; was. now an atheist for the last 30 years and will never go back to the negativity that is in that belief. I'd rather be free of men's dogma and false beliefs. Wicca has a better moral system than xian
I'm an atheist, this is the first time i have ever seen one of your videos and as a result have no idea where you fall on the religious spectrum. However, your approach to these topics is one I can support. I honestly believe this approach is FAR more productive in modern discourse then any "hardline religious" tact and creates a more interesting, open, and honest dialog where common ground can be found. I know many that will label you heretical, but in my understanding (again as an atheist) you are far more "Christian" then most.
As a christian I was taught how to lie. Not to others but to myself. Once you learn how to lie to yourself, lying to others becomes easy.
You belonged to a non-Christian protestant sect then.
This really nails it. I am going to have to use this one.
What lie did you feel compelled to tell? Thanks!
This is painfully true. I became an expert at this
@ the most basic lie I told myself was that Jesus was the only way to god. That's the one Christians push the most.
However consider this. When you read the Bible it doesn't make sense, there are a lot of contradictions and other irregularities. So you are taught to read the Bible with discernment"" discernment in this case literally means the Bible is inerrant so if you do not understand the text, you are the problem not the bible, read it again until you stop becoming the problem. So you lie to yourself about the text and you confidently repeat those lies to others.
One piece of text that caught me up was Matthew 17:20 which speaks of faith the size of a mustard seed. I knew I could not move a mountain with my faith. So my faith was far smaller than a mustard seed, I was obviously so unworthy. So I renegotiated the text to mean faith the size of a mustard seed was lot of faith. That's a lie. A mustard seed is the smallest living thing Matthew knew of. Jesus was literally giving every one a test. If you have but the tiniest amount of faith you can make a plant fruit or move a mountain. Give it a try one day and see how your faith stacks up.
The printing press led to the reformation 500 years ago. Today, another reformation is beginning, thanks to the internet. I’m thankful that we have such a means to fact check religious leaders.
Yes. Christianity is dying one mouse click at a time. The Internet is having a similar effect as the printing press.
The printing press led to the trope "a lie travels around the world five times before the truth puts on its shoes". Otherwiese neither Luther nor Calvin would have ever got off the ground.
Massive secularization set in in the sixties in Western Europe, in the absence of the internet.
@ I wonder if lies traveled faster than the truth in the first century AD?
Before the printing press, the Romans would say "rumor volat" or rumor flies
The little Missionary Baptist Church my parents dragged me to almost split when they got a new "altar table." Once they saw that someone had inscribed it with "Do this in remembrance of me." [Luke 22:19] instead of the exact words of the KJV, "This do in remembrance of me." they fell into a huge, at times vicious, squabble about the switched words. Their fervent, ritual idolatry of the KJV was one thing that struck me as completely bonkers, reeking of _cognitive dissonance._ That gave rise to one phrase I've used about Evangelicals, and about Calvinists in general: *_Bible Idolatry._* Of course, that can be extended to conditions in other religions as _Scriptural Idolatry,_ when the words, themselves, become more important than the meaning behind the words.
I saw something similar years ago. The pastor was basically forced to quit because he wanted to move the table.
Baptists Trinity - father, son, and holy Bible. The rub is that our Christian theology is a synthesis of Greek Platonism and 2nd temple Jewish apocalypticism and yet none of our childhood churches would ever permit this kind of history of philosophy, their origin story is Victorian, Moody is their version of Clement, Spurgeon is their Irenaeus, all these wacky Victorian evangelists are their church fathers, so as a curious student I was like wait, our actual faith is rooted in apostolic practice, the Septuagint, Greek vocab, mysticism, deduction, and appropriation of Jewish texts, and that is all so glorious and developed and glued together in the patristic material, but here we are doing heretical middle class Gnosticism with escapist trap doors everywhere we look, and no humility or meekness, just dopey American salesman theory.
It's so horrible, but for some reason not even that surprising 😔
I'm Jewish, grew up studying the Bible in Hebrew, so it's even crazier to me that they're fighting over the wording in a translated text. More broadly, I think taking the Bible literally and taking it seriously are not only different, they're mutually exclusive. Reading it literally means reducing it from Scripture into a science book or a history book.
There was a Baptist church in my hometown that split up over the type of musical notes used in a song book. Another local church had some members who had a doctrinal disagreement about something, so to settle it they brought shotguns to church the next week.
When I was a child, I remember saying "...when I get to heaven", and my dad corrected me with "IF you get to heaven'. I was 8. I was absolutely terrified about ending up in hell because I wasn't a good enough christian. Humans in general have no comprehension of eternity, let alone children who simply cannot understand the difference between fact and faith, and therefore having no ability to make informed decisions about religion.
Your father told you what someone he trusted told him. It can have one of two end results other than the unspeakable harm already done. It can destroy your spiritual journey, or it can help you continue to grow, and learn of the Great Spirit and vow to do everything in your power not to harm another fellow sojourner. God bless you, my friend, from someone who has been there.
@@rutha1464it sounds like you know my father better than I do as you seemed to have jumped to some wild conclusion about why he said that and what his intentions were.
I think you might be projecting your story on to mine.
My brain is twisted and I wonder if I am saved.
@@jayevans7190I am so done with church however I continue having a relationship with God.
It's called indoctrination ! Get them when theyr'e young !!!!
When I was a teen, the pastor and his wife of the church I attended, an Assembly of God, were the most cheerful loving people I've ever known in my life. I went to church three times a week, because I enjoyed being around them. As an adult, over time I began to have doubts about what I was taught about the Bible, and one of the hardest things to overcome was to accept that my pastor and his wife didn't really tell me the truth. I simply had to conclude that they were delightfully deluded. They truly believed what they taught, and it made them happy. They believed they were making a positive difference in people's lives, and I think for the most part they did. But one has to wonder that people, like me, enjoyed being around them, and we hoped to have what they had. Nevertheless, through years of thought and study, I simply had to reject the idea that the Bible was the inerrant word of God. Strangely, when I reached that point, I actually felt more at peace, because my mind had been conflicted for decades. There's more to my story, but that's enough for now.
Thanks Harry...love the story
@harrydecker8731Thanks for sharing your story. It raises another point, that there can be some goodness in it too. It's tough to get the nuance in a video like this. OR the goodness can have a ulterior motive. It's complicated I guess.
I’ve had a very similar experience. I’ve also experienced a peace of mind after letting go of this fundamentalist framework.
Beautiful ❤ i'm experiencing the having genuinely good people who are delightfully deluded in my life right now .Just got a call frok my pastor who was checking up on me hehe
PHD you say?
Point 5 is the most painful one. The manipulation and pressure to transform younglings was ever present during my service in church. It was the gold standard by which my ministry was publicly judged by pastors, elders, and even parents. My last posting I took a radically different approach which was to work with each student where he or she was in their journey. Encouraged questions and helped them to learn how to study Bible and seek truth for themselves. It didn't take the teens long to recognize the controlling hypocrisy of the adults.
@@lightwinsoverdarkness 100 %. It's the one thing I still feel personal guilt about for my Ministry. Believing that getting kids saved was more important than even respecting the wishes of them or their parents
Very interesting!
Your fifth point reminded me of something:
I'm 72 and from about 14-17 I was deeply involved in the Nazarene Church, and evangelical group. The Nazarenes held something called an "altar call". After the sermon, they'd be a final hymm, and while singing it the preacher was going "Come to Jesus! Don't turn him away, because you never now was the next moment will bring. Come down and ask for God to save you at the altar right now, before it's too late. You don't want to allow Satan to get ahold of you and torment you forever.."
Altar calls were terrifying for me, an introvert that didn't want to walk down a church aisle and kneel at an altar while everyone was watching. Yet the hymn, which was usually a pleading sort of thing, and the preacher could make this a seriously awful situation.
There was one kid, I think about 7 or 8, that went to the altar EVERY SINGLE ALTAR CALL. Even at the time I recognized that she must live her life in abject terror that she'll do something wrong between altar calls, and die and go to hell.
And I wonder what effect that sort of ritual, continual trauma had on her as she grew older.
That's so heartbreaking. Wow. I hope she was able to find some peace as she grew up
I spent many years in a Pentecostal church system, starting in my early teens. I left the church eventually, but have carried the emotional, psychological and spiritual scars with me ever since. I have had great therapists, and a lot of support from friends and family. I'm very glad I am where and who I am today - my church experience made me question everything, which has ultimately been a wonderful approach to life. But I *really* could have done without years of absolutely hating myself and my body for simply being a regular teenaged body and self. Children need to be kept away from toxic theology the same way they need to be kept away from gasoline, open flames and komodo dragons. Evangelical minds need to twist into the most bizarre contortions in order to make sense of the innumerable contradictions and false statements in the Bible. Putting that mental torture aside was one of the first gifts of leaving the church. And there have been so many others. Thank you for your clarity and heart.
@@ericlanebarnes thank you so much for taking the time to share this. I look around and so many of the people who grew up in it are unpacking it. Finding spirituality has been wonderful for me in the long run, but I spent a decade as an atheist
So agree with you !!! So lucky i was not indoctrinated by religion as a child ! I'm a happy ATHEIST !!!!
Really happy to see you talk about the anxiety over salvation. I was constantly worried if I was saved or not. And then to have the pastors hound at you that we are POS’s added to the anxiety.
And absolutely agree that Christian’s that encourage ppl to question their belief. But then get upset or try to humiliate you because you ended up with a different belief. Aren’t actually encouraging critical thinking. It’s still behaving like a cult.
@@CJFCarlsson Would you leave Christianity if it was proven that Jesus told the disciples he would return in their generation, but in fact never did?
@@penttimuhli9442 Jesus was resurrected and he revealed himself in glory to John, Peter and Paul so I wonder a bit what kind of knowledge you hold?
@@penttimuhli9442 There is also a bit of complexity here, since this discussion is mixed with the disciples question about the temple. You have to read the gospels otherwise it becomes only one sentence there and one there.
@@CJFCarlsson Did Jesus tell the disciples that they will see the sign of his second coming in the first century?
Nothing to do with what you are referring to in relation John, Peter and Paul.
@ In the olivet discourse Jesus outlines all of the events that will take place, including his appearance in the sky. He told the disciples "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place". So all the events, the wars and rumors of war, the temple and his second appearing were all meant for the first century
Bravo Chris well spoken. From what I've observed of many Christian churches, the lay people are rarely given an opportunity question important biblical scriptures. Pastors /ministers are reluctant to tell the congregation that there are issues with certain (many) verses such as the differences in Jesus' birth narrative and problematic Christian proof texts which don't align with the OT. Even if the group does have a bible study group, the lay people are simply told what to believe and don't question us.
Another observation I've noted, many new Christian recruits seem to have issues in their lives, often with health and mental issues. Terminal illnesses and reformed criminals are examples. Their belief is, if they turn to Christ they with be saved.
Very true. There's probably something important here, I do think church can be a wonderful home for people who are hurting. But hopefully not by manipulating and bullying them
I experienced the same things when I attended church. We could never question what the pastor or Sunday school leader said. I rarely questioned anything, but then again, I usually forgot all about the sermon an hour after walking out the door. Now that I've given up church, I'd welcome the chance to learn and discuss in an honest and open environment.
Count me in as one who followed the evidence where it leads...right out the door and out of the faith
Lot of people (like me) really wanted to get to know God better, so we set ourselves up to leave the faith by becoming more educated about Early Christianity. Then, once we got more understanding about how the Bible was really written, is when many people realized that it was all make-believe. That's what happened to me. I read the Bible to get to know God better, but after reading more of the text, you realize that it's just a religion like all of the other world's faiths. Nothing special.
Me too !
When I heard "We don't have a religion, we have a personal relationship with God" I was impressed. It was one thing that led me to becoming a Christian. As you say, looking back on it. It was in fact a religion
yes, it is
Yes, we are told it's a relationship all our lives. But Muslims believe the same thing.
Well, it's a relationship where it seems you do all the work.
A legalistic religion where they enjoy their tax-exempt status for being a “religious institution “
I find it telling that many Pastors, Evangelists and Apologists are either willing to intentionally misrepresent facts, or they choose to remain ignorant of things they are speaking about because they don't want to risk discovering the truth. Even though they claim they have the "truth", they generally have little interest if their "truth" is actually true.
@@1970Phoenix that's true. I want to think more about how these churches create leaders as well. It's often men who do have some natural leadership ability, but also a very high desire for affirmation. And it's a tough relationship, because even pastors who don't toe the line get fired by their congregations.
I'm 60 and I grew up the same way you did. To be honest, I'm still dealing with the trauma of spiritual abuse. I just subscribed. Thank you for your channel.
The message of religion is that you are never good enough, you don’t understand, and whatever the problem is, it’s your fault. What better way to get control.
Yep, that’s textbook emotional abuse. It’s exactly how abusive husbands turn their wives into craven, obedient husks. And this is still being done to children everywhere.
Fear is the easiest way to control people---fear of hell, a place of ultimate eternal punishment (that can't be demonstrated) is a sure fire ticket to mind control
So true ! Ànd , your NOT supposed to ask too many questions !!!
Very true ! And neither can heaven be proved either !! And " eternal life " ! Most people are scared to die , and therefor the above sound wonferfull !
NT Wright and Michael Bird give fair assessments on all 5 points here. I see this as more of an attack against fundamentalism.
I would say is self defense.
Atheist here. Love your attitude to religion and faith. I think anyone, believer or non believer, theist or atheist who can make sense of religion and faith - needs to be encouraged. Society and humanity suffer when religion goes mad.
One only needs to look at the deeply dysfunctional U.S. or UK to see the terrible harm caused to a society when the religious have any influence in society..
Thanks very much
The evidence lead me out the door.
@@cjohnyrun Quite a few lies bandied about. Just one lie is reasonable justification to reject the whole thing.
@@cjohnyrun - Your 'attitude' to 'religion' is based on protestant heresies and lies. Of COURSE you were 'lied' to, the thousands of protestant sects are NOT part of the Church. However they can be full of good people.
Trying to be a better Christian by openly admitting I didn't know if Catholocism was right, and reading the Bible to find out is why I'm now an atheist.
unfortunately, out of all religions, atheism is the most stupid (because it's so easy to refute) and most dangerous (because it does not value life). nice job
WOW! CJ, you speak truth so well. Your wonderful GIFT to this world cannot be overstated. Please keep speaking truth. You're AMAZING!
Wow, thank you
I remember the teaching that we were the ONLY church that was saved - in addition to the 5 things you mentioned. Took me a while to get over all that.
That old chestnut 😂
I am glad you freed yourself from that fear and anxiety.
just cuz your church was stupid doesn't mean that Christianity is false, just like if you have a bad math teacher that can't explain the subject it doesn't mean math is false. Jesus died for YOU not for some business that calls itself a church. Read the Bible yourself and ask God for understanding for the next 6 months and see then what you think.
I learned that believing without proof is the same as lying to yourself, I actually DO beleive now from personal experience but I'm glad I have parents that taught me to ask questions
As a person who grew up fundamentalist, this hits hard
That would make an excellent title of a book or a movie: "Lies My Pastor Told Me."
Yeah, it was a book about American history first. "Lies my teacher told me".
I am 65 years old. I left Pentecostal/Evangelical Fundamentalism 34 years ago, but the truth be told, I had already stopped believing much of what I was being told from the pulpit long before I stopped attending. I didn't so much "deconstruct" (that word wasn't in use back then), as I "redirected." I discovered my spiritual home in the Episcopal Church (now I'm a priest), and within the structure of the liturgy discovered an expansive theology that spoke way more about the ethics of living than the fear of hell. I wholeheartedly agree with you about biblical inerrancy and "saving" children. Those were the most damaging lies I was told, and for sure I lost lots of sleep as a kid worrying about being orphaned because of the (unbiblical) Rapture. Thanks for spreading the word that one doesn't need to leave the Faith to leave Evangelical/Fundamentalism.
67 year old former Evangelical/Charismatic here. Grew up in the Spanish speaking Church. Trying my best to decolonize my faith. Still love Jesus, finding some refuge and healing in a local Anglican Church! Would love to connect somehow! Thanks for the video!
Anglican is usually a great place to be! Glad you've found a place to belong
Have you found any religion that stops teaching that God said this or that or told someone to kill others or that God drowned every child on earth?
Biblical inerrancy is on an epistemological par with flat earth. They are both completely absurd.
Remembering of course that the bible describes the earth as flat.
@@DeveloperChris it's more accurate to say that most of the Bible's authors believed in a flat earth, but that Isaiah explicitly refers to the Earth as a chug (ball)
given Isaiah's advanced education (royal connections/nobility) - it is not impossible that the most literate in society knew that the planet wasn't flat. Mind you, it wouldn't be from "God" but rather from earlier scientific investigations in Egypt and Sumer.
True, but I (many of us) was indoctrinated from infancy that questioning that would cause your soul to burn in hell for eternity. It took decades of reason to completely get past that brain washing.
Well said !
@RueveGoldStein1 Which is to say the bible contains contradictions which render it obsolete.
If we can't rely on the creator of the universe to get details about his own creation right, I'd suggest there is a niggling chance that he wasn't the creator of the universe.
I was told by a clergyman that I was allowed to ask questions. A few questions later, it became apparent that he didn't actually mean I could ask any questions, only the questions that he had readymade apologetic answers for. And no follow-up questions either.
It’s a mind job when your doubts and questions get so serious they lead you to the point of believing you’ve committed the unforgivable sin or that you’re an anti-Christ. I went through so dark times over the past 10yrs questioning my faith while reading scripture as if it was talking directly to or about me. Not even sure how to describe or label my experience. Thankfully been studying the history behind the scripture and realizing all the Jewish and Roman mythology behind it all.
It's so disgusting. The gaslighting is real. And it's powerful for people socialized to be affected by it
Spent 8 years in a Catholic seminary in the 1960s......now a very happy agnostic today😂😂
Came from a soft bible Anglican church and i will never forget the two priests Father Black and Father Peters. Love and fellowship was always the main message. In Alexandria, VA many of the churches have this approach. They have abandoned the concepts of atonement and original sin, celebrate diversity. The point is to develop a loving community.
@@tomdebevoise I love this. I wish more people would find this way
The thing I'm learning in my deconstruction is that most religions work in absolutes and black and white. Life absolutely is not that way whatsoever. Once you see the truth of how many errors of the Bible there are YOU CANNOT UNSEE IT!
"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest."- anonymous
Well, life is actually quite often black and white. It puts you on the spot to do this or not, to do that or not. Dissolving this into grey is a cowardly, lazy response.
"The many error of the Bible" only exist to the fundamentalist (who has to deny any tension) or to the reverse fundamentalist scoffer (who relishes in them to reject it all).
@@trevwill21 oh my goodness, that's such a good quote. I feel like I've heard it before, but I'm not sure. I love it
@@str.77 it's a dichotomy isn't it. Making everything black and white is a recipe for stupidity and fundamentalism. Making everything gray is a recipe for wishy washy I guess.
But unfortunately with faith and spirituality, it's more grey than anything else. And people who try to make it black and white are often wrong or lying
It is faith after all but not faith in faith but faith in what, that is important. Frank Turek has said, "I don't have enough faith to be an athiest. "
@@karlhanson1229 Frank Turek is an idiot...
“The apostles were eyewitnesses, and they went to their deaths refusing to recant. They wouldn’t die for a lie!” Except they weren’t and didn’t, when you look into it.
it's those pesky words again... 😉
Lots of people have died for a lie, but even more will lie for a death. How the apostles died is very controversial to say the least.
@docforest4851 heros often die in classical literature until this day. Sad some cannot see
Remind Christians of the terrorist who died on 9/11 for their faith, then see what the Christian says.
Well, we don't know for certain the end of all the Apostles but we do know about enough to know that your conclusion is wrongheaded. They were and they did.
I am still very much a Christian and still part of the evangelical world, but I have learned a lot about church history and it made me so much more optimistic. As far as your last point, I was pretty religiously traumatized by antichrist, hell, eternity, etc. I had panic attacks thinking of all the people burning in hell. I used to pray Satan got saved and I was always trying to save my friends so they wouldn't go to hell. I was about 7. I think the idea of how we teach original sin is incorrect and how we view some doctrines.
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
Can you clarify what you are "optimistic" about and what information about "church history" led to your "optimistic" belief?
@GuessWhoAsks I used to think that everyone who didn't believe exactly like me was not a Christian. Nobody taught me that but I just thought it. I was raised with a strong belief in revelation being futuristic and all the symbolism was literal.
I have since learned about church history and the theological beliefs that accompany history. People have always struggled with questions and so much of what they were going through shaped their theological beliefs. I have learned that there are so many Christians in the world. We all believe a little differently and those differences only make it interesting. There are certain core beliefs that are not negotiable but other secondary beliefs are.
@@erinl1265 Thanks for the reply. Not sure why it posted the question twice, but I deleted the extra and am sorry that I still need clarification as your reply does not actually answer the question I asked. You are statinging that you have now learned about "church history and the theological beliefs that accompany history", but that does not explain your usage of the term... "optimistic" and how it relates to "church history". Can you explain what you are "optimistic" about in relation to "church history", or was "optimistic" the wrong term used to convey your meaning?
@@GuessWhoAsks optimism in the sense that the world wasn't as bad as I previously thought. There are way more Christians that what I used to think. More people are saved. I used to think catholics and episcopal etc were not real Christians. I realized that none of us really know everything. We are all learning and growing and discovering. I think God has so much more grace and mercy for us. We are all trying to serve him to the best of our ability.
Gaslighting is a powerful tool that most do not even know they are doing...
Nothing prevents serious study of the Bible like the doctrine of biblical inerrancy.
@@InquisitiveBible agree totally. It’s just like the Koran, and only important in THAT part of the world
Glad I found your channel, you use common sense and your education to give such thoughtful and rational explanations that so many of us have struggled with and have questioned ourselves.
@@williamtotherow3367 thank you for saying this. It's sort of what I envisioned when I started, but I didn't know how it would go. I really appreciate this encouragement 🙏
@@cjohnyrun You are top tier.
Left Christianity 10 years ago when I started reading Greek,Sumerian and Egyptian mythology and realized the Bible literally copied it.And also reading the horrific stuff your church ignores or priests or pastors also ignore
Been there done that. But the Hebrew literature didn’t really just copy it, they riff on it. So it’s a subtle jab to us, but a blatant jab way back then. Kind of like Hosea 1:4 jabbing at 2 Kings 9-11, the Hebrews also jabbed at their own earlier authors, Essenes jab at Zadokites, Pharisees at Sadducees, prophets at priests, Jesus at all of them. When you see the Bible as a library of insults and corrections leading a wrestler to humility before the ground of our being, then it makes our arrogant fundamentalist pastors look like the kind of dim wits who Jesus jabs in every single parable. Turns out Jesus was an excellent social critic as well.
Half-truths like "the Bible copied this or that" can only ever lead to no-truths, eventually to disdain and hatred.
So people still fall for the "Zeitgeist" deception? I thought that stuff was debunked ages ago.
The circle of life, repeating the same old stories to new generations to gain wisdom and knowledge from them.
Man is between the spiritual mind and the carnal mind, snoozing between the two, whereas Adam is dead to the world in the garden dreaming of a world without the hand of the Father.
or, different cultures documenting same history thru their own eyes but not really seeing the whole picture and the Bible thru God's eyes. if you and i observe the same thing we would write a similar story, doesn't mean we copied each other. can't get around the provable fact the Jesus lived, was holy, died, and resurrected. other figures form other cultures w similar claim have zero evidence that they even existed. plz tell me you're not an atheist, cuz that is the easiest religion to refute, not to mention it is stupid and dangerous.
I was raised penticostal as a young kid i asked my pastor where the dinosaur's came from he said: the Devil created them" ....
Right 😅😅
I mean, have you seen a T-Rex? It's like Satan with tiny arms
@@cjohnyrun Those tiny arms are to ensure that it doesn't "touch itself" in an impure manner. 😇
Lmao
"Religion Poisons Everything" - Christopher Hitchens
This video in a nutshell:
Genesis 3 : 1 - “…Has God really said..?”
@Yes, it’s Satan speaking to Eve and asking, “Has God really said ‘you shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”. God had spoken his Word to Adam/Eve and then Satan came into the garden and casted doubt by telling Eve that God really didn’t say what he said. This video uses the same tactic and it clearly goes against the plain reading of scripture. Questioning Biblical truths as “lies” makes me think of “another Jesus” Paul warns about in 1st Corinthians 11.
this video is devoid of real meaning
@@matt6573 That's not Satan in the garden.
@m.gattus-reinhart845
2nd Corinthians 11:3 - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Revelation 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
@matt6573 What's absolutely amazing here is that I or others who understand the Bible on a critical and scholarly level are the one's who are trying to deceive you, but it's never those who are closest to you.
PS
The thing in the tree never lied or deceived, Adam or Eve. There was no serpent in the tree, God turned it into a commonly known as a serpent after the fact. Perhaps reading it sometime.
The later half of 1 Corinthians 13 says to put away your childish ways. I have perhaps so should you.
I'm grateful to the TH-cam algorithm for dropping this into my internet feed. When I was young I was a strong believer and at two points was heading towards full time ministry but there were many things which didn't feel right. I have been an atheist for over 30 years. The internet has gradually renewed my interest in studying in greater depth the Bible, the history of the Christian Church, and it's doctrines and practices. I've become a bit of a nerd. I also have hundreds of books. I now know far more now than I ever did as a believer.
Why have I become an amateur "expert"? (I use the word "expert" in a very light way. I don't have lots of degrees and PhD s.)
I believe that the religious virus needs to be countered because of the harm it does. It damages our children and affects (infects) almost every aspect of the world we live in. Knowledge is power and the internet is the most important weapon we have in the 21st Century to fight this iron age nonsense.
Voices like yours are so important. Thanks for doing what you do.
Thank you so much. I appreciate this encouragement. And I agree :)
Point five: It’s not just evangelicals who do this. In my sorta Presbyterian family I was steeped in the story from a very early age. Mealtime and bedtime prayers, Sunday school lessons, etc , all designed to imprint right ideas. (I also grew up in the postwar, Billy Graham era where even pop culture picked up the theme. I’m gonna write a piece on that. Someday.)
There are those of us Christians who take the whole of the Bible as authoritative--believing it intelligently, so that we believe with. Mind/intellect, Heart/devotion, and Will/properly shaped obedience.
Thank you so much for this commentary. I grew up in a traditional Baptist Church. Later in life, I became an evangelical. I am 60 years old now, and I am in the process of "reconstructing" my faith, not deconstructing. Videos like yours help me understand and articulate the struggles that I have with my faith. I don't want to abandom my faith. I want to reformulate it so that I can have true peace and joy.
Truth doesn’t require faith. Faith requires DENIAL of truth. Keep searching for TRUTH. Not faith.
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. You can rebuild a meaningful faith life AND discuss complex theological issues openly and honestly without having to tie a pretty bow on it.
Only 5 !?
Just stumbled upon your video. Well done, well researched. Very informative and pragmatic approach for seekers.
8:00 "show up for your wedding and funeral" lol. I'm lazy and a procrastinator, but I'll make a point of showing up for my funeral.
Thanks C.J. You're observations about fundamentalism are spot on. Keep up the good work
Thank you for the encouragement!
Great talk. I was raised in an extended fundamentalist evangelical family (Plymouth Brethren or Baptist) and life was a series of rules well summed by the saying ‘everything is forbidden except if it is compulsory’. The late Jerry Falwell Snr was an occasional preacher in our church so you get the flavor.
In my family TV and radio were only for news bulletins and Christian services and the only accepted bible was the KJV and later the NIV was added and as I have learned from Dan McClennan the NIV was very deliberately translated to produce a modern Bible that reinforces fundamentalist views of the Bible - in other words it’s a deliberate mistranslation.
I ‘escaped ‘ by being good at academics and so went to university and to medical school. At first I joined a hip popular church near campus that had lots of students and a young pastorate (all in their 30’s), there was lots of good music and a free flowing form the services. The church was an early plant of what is nowadays the Hillsong group.
However I soon realised that it was just as rigidly controlled as the church I grew up in and in some way worse.
The Hillsong movement (and similar) believes that we are in the last times as in Joel 3 v1 and following. A time they say that there are new Apostles not merely pastors or ministers but apostles who speak for God and so are making new truth for this age. To disagree or to challenge the church leadership is “as witchcraft”.
I stopped attending after hearing that and in fact never went back to membership of a church although I attend my mother’s Baptist church on occasions when with family.
I do get asked why don’t you join us? I reply with Amos 3 v3
“Do two people travel together unless they have first agreed to do so?’
I honestly cannot agree with much of the teachings of that church
Sounds like we have very similar backgrounds. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment
I applaud your honesty and courage. My guiding principle has been: question everything, free yourself from ignorance end superstition. The source of that is religion itself.
Excellent summary. Inspiration does not equal inerrancy, infallibility and univocality.
Thanks for an honest sharing of your experience. In spite of your even keeled tone, it’s evident that you felt a lot of justified frustration.
Might I suggest some books in case you haven’t already read them?
The first is “Verbum Dei”, a Vatican II document that outlines the Catholic approach to Biblical interpretation.
The second is “Crossing the Tiber” by Stephen Ray.
Good luck on your continuing journey.
I read a ton of Vatican II theologians once upon a time. but never "Crossing". I'll check it out. thanks
I was raised in an assembly of God church until my family slowly stopped going when I was a teenager. I met some people in college that had a campus ministry, and I started going back to church. In 2016 I started noticing some things in the Bible that contradicted what "mainstream" christians call "foundational beliefs/doctrines." The first one was the trinity. I slowly read through the whole NT and noted every verse that mentioned the Father, Son, and spirit. I was thoroughly convinced the trinity was not biblical just half way through that study. The Bible is super clear in some places about the Father being the only true God and being the God of Jesus. After months of searching the internet, I finally found Biblical Unitarians, who believe the same thing. I spent the next 6(?) years studying the Bible more and finding that half of what "mainstream" christians think is "foundational" is actually not found anywhere in the Bible. It's crazy to me how bad eisegesis is in mainstream christianity. I realized that everyone in church is subconsciously taught to read their beliefs into the Bible all over the place. Even "smart" apologists/theologians do it. I had to unlearn that thought pattern/behavior because it affected how I read everything else in life. I also found out that they spread a false narrative of christian history, either intentionally or out of ignorance.
Evangelical fundamentalism clashing against facts has caused a ton of people to either: A) Refuse to give up their beliefs and just live with cognitive dissonance and/or ignore the contradictions they see; B) Refuse to give up their beliefs and compromise by becoming Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, since those don’t base their doctrines solely on the Bible; C) Become biblical unitarian; C) Leave christianity entirely. Biblical Unitarianism is still a sliver of the population, but it has been growing a lot in the last 5 years.
Wow , some excelent points of dangers of fundamentalism and some evangelico doctrines. I relate to many of your points. Blessings ! PTL for your video.
Just so nicely done. You are one of the more concise speakers on the material. Even intelligent types can ramble. You tend not to. Thank you.
@@leeerickson4574 thank you so much. I do feel a tendency to ramble sometimes too lol. But I'm working on it
I am a Roman Catholic and I love the rituals and think they can be important and helpful. In my mind, the issue is when they are made too important, almost like they are the end goal and not a means to the end. No religion is perfect, though, and mine is not an exception. (Also I was away from the church for decades, so I probably do see things from a very different perspective than most Catholics. )
I'm former Eastern Orthodox and honestly there are still issues and contradictions within the entire tradition.
For me, when I quit believing, it was one of the best feelings ever. Because I realized that I didn't have to worry about "going to hell", and that I didn't have to self-moderate my own thoughts. Kindof like living in the book Fahrenheit 451, you have to make sure you don't let others know what you are really thinking; it has to be disguised. Similarly, I feared constantly that God was waiting and wanting to strike me down if I even questioned him. Because I used to fear that (yes, I swear that this is crazy) God would strike me down DEAD if I even wondered if He was real, so I had to cheat a tiny bit (here & there) about if He was just kindof different than He said. So, if you questioned Him, you would have to do it (like "my Friend was thinking this or that"), then He couldn't get you for being the bad one. [Granted, this is kindof hard to discuss and explain, but it's something that I lived, growing up Baptist in the South of the US.]
I grew up in a non-denominational church where one person had said he thought it was more of a Brethren church, so probably similar to you. But, I had always questioned (but I feared voicing it) the existence of a god from my youngest age. The religion probably, that's an understatement, has affected me in unpleasant ways. 99% of them were YEC, young earth creationists. I became atheist after highschool graduation in 2010, due in large part to TH-cam, actually.
I wish I had TH-cam! It started shortly after I finished high school
Given what I see coming from the present evangelical movement, I can understand the frustrations and stress it creates in the lives of individuals.
Ironically, the history of Xtanity has always been about questioning what doctrine is right/wrong
The Protestant reformation was all about “personal interpretation” of scripture. Well personally, I interpret this book is a combination of some historical facts and mythology.
I left evangelical church some 8 years ago. I have come to a place where I think there is a place for healthy evangelical churches (there are still some very damaging ones). I am also optimistic to see more evangelical churches focusing more on service vs evangelizing.
But how does “service” benefit grifters, billionaires, and GOP politicians? That’s all evangelicals are for, now. 🫠
The biggest lie for me, was the lost burning in hell for all eternity. Hell is a pagan concept that doesn't belong in the Bible or religion. I discovered this after researching the early history of the church and learning the true meanings of Hebrew and Greek words such as; Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, nephesh, basanizo, aionian, kolasis, thelo and elko just to name a few.
Not everyone in "church" are Christians. Even Jesus said this (Matt 7:22-25)
Many have learned Christianity but have never been converted in their hearts as a result of a revelation.
Currently one year into my deconstruction from evangelicalism and the hardest thing is getting my wife to understand why I no longer agree with the things our last church believed despite her acknowledging that particular church also gave her trauma and insecurity over her validity as a follower of Jesus.
just because some church teaches heresy doesn't mean the Bible is false. i stopped going to church and since then my faith in Jesus has been continuously strengthening, primarily because i started reading the Bible myself and praying to God to give me understanding - and He has. Vast majority of today's churches don't even know the Biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ; they're businesses and have stealthily modified the Gospel in a way helps them syphon more money out of the congregates. I would say probably a good thing that you left the church, but don't leave your faith in Jesus Christ!
@ I deconstructed from evangelicalism, not from Christianity or Jesus altogether at least. Unfortunately some intermingle the two when they’re different
@@Axaul btw, i think this video is trying to argue that the Bible and Christianity are false altogether.
It's their job to lie to you. They have a narrative they want you to believe some of which they don't really believe themselves. They know that a lot of it shouldn't be taken literally but tell their congregation to take it literally.
What I don't understand is as youth I watch American TV including Laugh-In and listen Chics and Cong @@PaulHosey-u3l How are folk so easily duped ... It seems like they were disconnected from their own culture.
5 years ago I would have thought you throughly a heretic. Now I think you are right.
Its not an easy road. Thanks for watching
@cjohnyrun former youth group leader as well. The things I once taught the kids... yikes!
Excellent video. All points so well made. I’ve moved from fundamentalism to being a progressive Christian and I’ve never frlt more free and closer to God.
That is such an interesting question. Marcion priority is still a hypothesis, but that's an interesting idea. We only know that Marcion had Luke (or vice versa if you believe the theory).. Not Acts. but it's a curious thing. But there's so much interesting work being done on this problem right now
I went to a conservative Presbyterian church for two years with two services on the Sunday and the minister preached the same sermon week in, week out and that sermon was, “Are you sure that you are saved?” The weird thing here is that this was a Westminster Confession of Faith kind of a church.
The biggest lie, IMO, is the notion of taking the gospel stories LITERALLY. IMO this was never the intent of the authors, but became status quo once the original generation of believers who were mostly Jewish died off, and the converts from the Gentiles began to re-interpret these texts as being actual history. Now we are stuck with what amounts to fairy tales being preached as historical truth, no wonder the church is in a total mess of conflict.
I grew up Southern Baptist in the 60's. As the SBC goes we were pretty moderate. I got involved with fundamentalism in the 70's mainly because of contemporary Christian music.
Went to a Bill Gothard seminar and went off the deep end. I managed to get away from that. (Long story) felt called to be a pastor, got my BA in Christian studies, went to Baptist seminary. I had some mental health problems and my life fell apart, and I was seriously questioning things in the church. Wound up leaving seminary and the church. Fast forward a few years, I joined a very liberal mainline church. Felt called back to be a pastor,this time in the ELCA. Went back to seminary at 40 and graduated with an M Div. Pastored a small rural parish in North Dakota for 16 years. The pandemic changed all that. My last call was a disaster, and my deconversion started seriously during that time. Basically it was looking at science and suffering that made Christianity un tenable for me. Fortunately I was old enough to retire so I didn't have to fake it very long. It's been a couple years and I'm still figuring it out. That was almost as long as some of my sermons 😂😇
Remember, the SBC was expressly, officially founded to help keep slavery legal. 🙃
An honest question for you C. J. What do you mean by "fundamentalist?"
Approx. 1971, a lady Sunday School teacher plain shocked me with her take on “be ye not unequally yoked”. It was a rural Midwest farm area 100% white. She taught we kids that meant we should avoid interracial relationships. Even at that young age, I immediately knew that was wrong. Unequally yoked I thought was non-Christian married to a Christian. It was shocking to hear her teach that. Kids were raised to not think we had rights, dare not speak up and question an adult in such a situation. I surely would object and why now.
Thank you ! Excellent presentation. I am a retired pastor who served for 45 years.
Well done; thanks for your thoughtfulness and care.
@@owlstoathens2265 thank you
I was captured by Baptists at a young age. Funny how something can be like a pebble in your shoe. At one point it occurred to me that the writers of the Bible would have been confused by that since they only had experience with sandals. People not knowing what a shoe was became a symbol of their ignorance about everything and made what they had to say seem trivial and irrelevant 1500 years later. Today I like the occasional quote just as I like one from ancient Rome or Greece. It is our culture. I kind of think that you may be right about the lack of importance for inerrancy of the Bible because building a belief system from your favorite passages is what every Christian does, inerrant Bible or not.
definitely true re: the bible. I mean, I do love it. and study it a lot. but it's more interesting as a historical artifact
This exactly, is what I've been trying to explain my whole life. Thank you for artuculating so well. For the first time in so long, i know that someone else gets it.
It's taken me a lot of years of working through this to really figure out what I was feeling and then to say it.. Still working through it I think
@cjohnyrun i think its the process that helps us heal. Thank you for helping others work through it with you.
Well said. You nailed the important issues. I have never seen anyone discuss problems with raising children in such a tradition, and this is a crux issue.
"It's a relationship, not a religion", this one bugs me. At best, one can reply "okay, you can see it as a relationship, and you may honestly experience it that way, but at no point does it cease to be religion also." All forms of Christianity fit the definitions of religion. It doesn't stop being that because it's the religion someone believes to be true.
My stand nearly exactly. Thanks for putting it into words.
I'm open to the idea that the Bible isn't inerrant, but I've never been intellectually satisfied with the assertion that inerrancy and textual contradictions are mutually exclusive.
We need people like you helping assisting influencing many others to get into Congress
"The Bible doesn't need to be inerrant." There it is.
I have long felt that evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity has noting to do with the purpose of religion. E/F Christianity is all about issues of power and control. It appeals to people who have a deep anxiety about the ambiguity that is basic to our human condition. Ironically, it's only thorough surrendering to this ambiguity that any salvation can be found.
A very welcome perspective. Thanks for watching and commenting
On the "constant anxiety" issue, there is a certain irony that that branch of denominations that insists that you cannot lose your salvation creates this, while those denominations (which you mentioned) that hold that you can, don't.
The root might be, that if you supposedly cannot lose your salvation but obviously have, then this means that you never had it in the first place.
@@str.77 that's an interesting observation. I do think it makes sensei, I've certainly had a lot of people even on the channel tell me I wasn't saved in the first place. I think it helps people make sense of it. While the Pentecostals can just rededicate their life every week
When those types of Calvinists tell me I never was saved I remind them that perhaps they aren't saved either and ask how they'd feel about God if their loved ones weren't "chosen".
Yeah, I see this now, too. "Once saved = always saved (no matter how sinful you think you are)" implies "Finally damned = always damned (no matter how saved you think you are)." Oh, the humanity! :-D
That is correct. I have been a follower of Christ/born again/spirit filled believer for 34 years. It all happened in one moment in time. I have not been lost for even two minutes in 34 years. The Holy Spirit within us is the assurance of our salvation. The tricky thing about being filled with the Holy Spirit is this? You can only know if you’re born again if you are born again. Most people are false converts. I attend a church where we’re pumping out false converts every week. generally, they refer to themselves as a Christian. Claiming a title does not save you.
@@Philthefisherofmen I'm afraid I disagree with you. Of course, it depends on which verses of the Bible (NT) you choose to adopt and which you choose to ignore. Do you have an Arminian understanding of Biblical Salvation, or Calvinist? I believe that under both systems, but especially Calvinist, many will completely believe that they are Saved and that they have the internal witness of the Holy Spirit, but that they are fooling themselves. May I respectfully ask you: How do you know truly that it actually IS the Holy Spirit witnessing to you and not 'something else'?
Christian guy here who wants a relationship with God, whom I believe is merciful and loving. I'm still trying to heal the damage from my stint with fundamentalist doctrine. On some levels, I'm not sure where to look. Passages in the Bible were weaponized in such a way that have produced constant anxiety for me. Biblical inerrancy doesn't seem possible to me--that is, I am unable to reconcile the dichotomy and contradictions in what I'm reading. This has been difficult for me to accept, as the concept of inerrancy was enforced so strongly, that to deny inerrancy was positioned as defying and rejecting God. So at every turn, as I'm trying to develop my relationship with God, I'm being told that I am rejecting Him--that I'm sinful and he has given me over to my own sinful nature.
@timtriolo4421 - Read St. Augustine - ALL of his writings and not just 'Protestant-quote-mining' excerpts. Took me 53 years to get there, and finally to a trust and faith in God that truly overcomes death. Sin results from fear - it's fear you need to attack and eliminate!
Wow I feel this. Honestly, there is so much twisted toxic beliefs to unravel. I hope you come through it loving yourself and your open, honest faith.
Oh no no no. In Catholocism you've committed a mortal sin if you miss one weekend mass with no excuse and have damaged your connection to God unless you've gone to confession and told a priest. While holding a mortal sin, your salvation is not assured and if you partake in catholic rituals such as communion while with mortal sin, it is said you are tainting everyone and adding to your pile of mortal sin you must confess. It caused me great anxiety. I thought I was going to hell because I took a bingo chip from my kindergarten classroom (though I don't remember doing it) until I was in 9th grade and reasoned I wasn't old enough to have the intent to make that sin mortal, so it was venial.
You are right about how a lot of people live, but above is what the church teaches. In my opinion the only reason people/priests/the church itself doesn't push back on these people more is because they realize a large number of them would just tell them off and leave the religion in w/e capacity they still remained. Even if it's just being able to count nonpracticing catholics as a number, I think the church wants to do it.
If one can believe the earth is is 6,000 years old by Biblical inference, then it seems a believer would be so sufficiently committed to Christ's explicit statements as to believe them with practiced application.
Thanks Chris. Appreciate the video. You really think turning up for church for funerals and weddings is a good demonstration of a NT Christian?
I hear what you are saying although I kinda get why a church doesn’t want someone involved if they are contradicting the pastor every week 😂😂😂 if you disagree - no problem, but please stop the persecution complex 😊😮 you’re sounding like us!!
Im not an atheist but I'm in the process of a painful deconstruction 😢 i still go to church i am the drummer in praise and worship team and i enjoy playing and the congratulations us not large so we're a nice community thats what keeps me going.
It is a very painful journey and I really hope your congregation is the type that will support you through it.
The thing they don't tell you is that you can find a nice community outside of churches, too. It's more work to find because other types of groups don't get the tax breaks or the cultural normalization, but it's out there.
@weirdwilliam8500 the ppl there are nice and have been there when I have had bad situations and in the good times as well. I know they're sincere.
@@mynorgonzalez2625 That’s cool. Hopefully they’re secure enough in their faith that they’ll involve musicians who don’t share their exact beliefs. A lot of churches do, but some communities feel threatened by people who aren’t exactly like themselves.
The entire Bible is Mythology
do you have any advice of how to cope with family members that became fundamentalist?
Welcome to the freedom of your own thoughts!
I'm 66 traveled a similar path.
Well please hurry and release the video where you say what’s left worth being part of after deconstruction
@@austinsweeney9898 haha okay. I'm trying to figure out how to say it, and getting ready for the backlash with people telling me I'm a heretic
@ I’m all about being kind and loving to people, treating others as I would want to be treated, etc. I read and studied the Bible since I was 18 truly believing it to be the inspired and inerrant word of god. Of course I had a lot of questions but pretty much accepted the apologetic answers. While I would like to remain friends with my Christian friends I can’t see myself actually going to church. It’s too much of a business and the head pastor is looked at like he has some special relationship with god while taking 10 percent of the income from young struggling families. It also creates an “us vs them” mentality and your church is right and the other churches aren’t. I just can’t. I see more harm than good.
@@austinsweeney9898 I wouldn't want to go to a chuyrch like that either
Hi man, before reading other comments, I'd like to say that I really have the same thoughts on 'we preach relation above religion'. I've been to an evangelical movement in the Netherlands, which uses exactly the same words, yet expect you to behave a certain way. Not only outside of church but also within. Outside meaning: you have to preach the gospel and you have to tithe. These are the things regularly driven home by the preachers. It's never about God, neither about Jesus, but about them- and ourselves. Ultimately, they know you're unhappy and preach salvation, yes rather a way to salvation. Preach and tithe. Inside of church, they expect you to be happy, 'worship' whenever it's their time, stand up, close your eyes (in honor to God and your fellow), which all is religion. It's not based in scripture either. They want to conform you to their things, so that they can boast in disciple counts. Let me tell you this, they're fd. On the other hand, I still fail to understand your deepest desire. Is it to say anything godly/towards God will do, or do you have some boundaries anywhere. Life without God doesn't exist, neither loving God beyond Jesus. For we have all sinned and lack the glory of God, ourselves. But through faith in Jesus (whatever that may mean) we have eternal life. You see, in scripture the way of salvation is still evident - maybe for the seeer only, but it is in there. A Christian ultimately seeks to understand other's utterances in the Bible. If we experience a situation in which we would express ourselves in scripture verses, I suppose we have reached the level of the author and thus the meaning of the utterance. If we take words from scripture and run with it in our understanding, you get evangelicals or Jehova's witnesses. I don't have a problem with either of them, for I know as a protestant, we had such episodes in our past as well. Nor will I condemn either of them, for ultimately they seek to please their Lord. So many thoughts, yet too many to go into too much detail. I wish you well and wish you kindness, for we only live through Christ. Everybody and everyone. There's no doubt on that. God bless. (and if you're not worthy, the blessing will return to me) God bless.
It always puzzles me that people who apparently have little trust in the Scripture want to hang on to “religion”.
If the Scripture wasn’t true and trustworthy, there would not be any reason to cling to Christianity.
Your “religion” would be as relevant as any other belief, therefore it would be irrelevant.
I remember that fear of never being good enough to be saved---not enough faith, not enough works---tho most of my life was taken up with working in the church. So altho an elder, leader, and bible studier, I decided that i must study more to become a better christian and that's how I lost my belief and faith---deeper study without blinders of faith exposed how ridiculous that 'god; was. now an atheist for the last 30 years and will never go back to the negativity that is in that belief. I'd rather be free of men's dogma and false beliefs. Wicca has a better moral system than xian
Whatever else we have or don't have, freedom of the mind is one of the most beautiful things. I can't imagine going back into a cage again
New fan. Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much!
I'm an atheist, this is the first time i have ever seen one of your videos and as a result have no idea where you fall on the religious spectrum. However, your approach to these topics is one I can support. I honestly believe this approach is FAR more productive in modern discourse then any "hardline religious" tact and creates a more interesting, open, and honest dialog where common ground can be found.
I know many that will label you heretical, but in my understanding (again as an atheist) you are far more "Christian" then most.