For Rivian - Give us R1S without air ride for much less money, for Tesala -Give us VAN for most efficent big family EV - 8 proper seats, sliding door and some cargo.
Excellent, Alex! Thank you. You are always thorough, and this is no exception. What I like a about this review is the work-vehicle aspect to it. Also, comparison to other vehicles with similar functionality and features is very helpful. I do like the R1S for my needs and price-point. It should do pretty well.
Most truck and SUV owners think they need to tow, when in truth they don't. They just want the ability to do so in those uncommon "If" cases.. Still, great video.
While you’re not wrong, being able to tow puts the U in SUV. And the tricky bit is not knowing where you’ll be in life in 5-10 years over the life of a vehicle: maybe you don’t tow today, but have been eying that boat or small camper.
@@StephenByersJ IDK, it seems to me that if you could afford one of these things, you could afford a boat or camper. If you have just enough for one or the other, then you’d probably get a less expensive truck or SUV, likea Rav4, that’s got decent towing capacity for something like a boat or small camper. In any case, if you actually intended to do that, you would. I think the larger point is that most people, even if they tow something, still spend 80 - 90% of their time commuting, errand running, or “pleasure driving” in these vehicles, rather than actually towing anything. If I ever need to tow anything, I would just rent something. Fun fact: TH-camr Type Ashton, who lives in Germany, made a point of mentioning that the Germans love towing too, but not with large trucks or SUVs. They’ll tow stuff with just about any kind of car (wagons are popular).
Very interested in the R1S. For the past three years, I thought I wanted a model X until Rivian came along. To me, this is absolutely an SUV in my mind. I don’t consider the model X an SUV, or even a crossover, but I like it for what it is. I’m really afraid of the falcon wing doors on the model X… I just feel like they’re prone to have problems. The Rivian is everything that I want, great size great, fit and finish not too big not too small not two luxury, but not basic either.
@@AAutoBuyersGuide I agree. I’m a Tesla fan but so with so many good options out here now, I am really looking hard at a few other brands now. Rivian is at the top of my list now. Plus, no dealership to haggle with is really appealing!
Hi Alex, Great review as always. While I tow periodically with my Suburban, this gives me the info and confidence I needed to know about towing with my R1T, which I’ve had about a year and love it!
Thanks for the thorough review, Alex, and for dividing it into two bit-sized chunks. So many reviewers compare specs and share what they've heard, but you really test vehicles in real-world situations. As another commenter noted, it's unlikely other popular reviewers have their own excavator (I'm jealous of your tilt-bed trailer!).
Lots of good points and rivian has fixed items since your post such as towing profiles and blended braking. I think the oil cooled Enduro motors tend to overheat on Regen less than the Bosch. They also don't have motor stall at zero rpm as badly and seem to have a better traction control system. Dual motor max pack towing a 4000lb trailer I've been getting 1.6 mi/kWh (220 miles of range) which is a pleasant surprise.
Have had a deposit on this for 10 months and still my front runner, though if the EV9 becomes available while I am still waiting I'll give it a close look. My only issue with the EV9 is range. I also have had a deposit on the EX90 since launch day but they seem to have gone radio silent on actual release time for that so getting less and less interested.
If I could afford either of them, I’d probably go with the R1S over the EV9. The EV9 is kinda fugly, to me at least. The EX90 isn’t too bad looking, but seems like it would not be as spacious as the R1T.
Admittingly, I'm holding off getting an EV (next vehicle will be a hybrid). Fair question is will Rivian be in business 10 years from now (that is not an issue if you will lease the vehicle).
They’re getting closer to profitability(probably Q4 2024), they allegedly plan the R2 models in 2026 but that could get delayed, they have the funding available to keep them going if demand sours, the R1S is really the only electric off road vehicle available
Amazon owns voting stake equity amounts. They will-if just to keep Amazon in the automotive sector until they have their answer to taking over another sector.
Nice video Alex, but you mentioned the max-pack would add weight to the vehicle. It may, but not to the extent you mentioned. My understanding is the battery pack is the exact same pack as the large pack; only Rivian uses different chemistry to gain the extra 50kWh of battery capacity. So unless the fluid chemistry has a different weight, the weight will hopefully not be much different - if the max-pack is as rumoured to be the same pack size as the large pack. Love your videos, keep it up.
From what Rivian told me, it fits in the same battery tray as the current battery, but is larger and heavier. Denser cells almost always increase weight.
Thanks for the long review. I can afford the RS1 but I am more interested in the EV9 for the interior space. Just got my RS1 config email last week after waiting since May 2022. I'm 6' 6", and car seats take up a huge amount of space. The only downside is range and a little less storage space.
Im really annoyed that they don't offer the off-road mode in the dual motor. If you run the numbers, the dual motor could be at least on par and potentially better off-road compared to the quad motor in terms of torque delivered to wheels off-road. Brake based TC is very well understood and mature and its relatively easy to program for wheel slip alone. With the Quad motor you have to control relative wheel speeds for differential action as well as for slip management and also be able to modulate torque and available grip. Dual motor with an LDS or locker in one or both axles would cream the quad motor off-road. People tend to think that individual wheel motors is the holy grail for off-road since it can send power individually, but the truth is that the best off-road traction is a single power source and no differentials. With quad motor only 25% of total system power can ever reach a given wheel. With a single source locked system 100% of total system torque instantly and passively can be sent to any individually wheel. In order for a quad motor to be on par with a single locked system, each motor needs to be as powerful as the single power source system. You need 4x as much power to achieve the same torque bias....assuming perfect traction motor torque logic. Example: Dual motor R1S rear motor torque - 305 lbs-ft. 13.7:1 reduction = 4178 lbs-ft torque at the ring gear. Quad motor R1S rear motor torque 247 x 2 = 494 lbs-ft. 12.9:1 reduction 3186 lbs-ft Torque at the "ring gear" per wheel (6372 for both combined). Throw away half the dual motor torque in wheel braking and the quad wins for available wheel torque. Lock the dual motor unit with a mechanical locker and the dual motor outputs 1000 lbs-ft more to the wheel with grip. 2600 lbs-ft more with the dual motor performance. Even throwing away half the torque in wheel braking the dual motor performance only has 500 lbs-ft less individual wheel torque compared to the quad. The truth is that a large single with traditional differential lockers is a superior off-roader to individual wheel motors every time.
I have an r1s and can say for certain that it rides worse in many situations, is not nearly as solid feeling and is noticeably less quiet than my wifes ID4 or my 2018 f 150. A lot of money for the quality in my opinion.
Alex's information on Rivian's max pack is incorrect. As @Willibopper commented 2 days ago, the maax pack is 149kWh confirmed. Same volumetric size, same number of cells, just a different chemistry so save weight and efficiency.
Might be nice, but is is really a practical car. Most people cannot afford it. Most EV’s are higher price than their ICE/Diesel counterparts. The luxury ICE SUV’s tend to have more room and larger towing capacity. If someone gave me one, I would drive it. But can’t afford it. I don’t need to climb mountain trails.
So if you’re not interested, you don’t think it’s practical, you don’t need to off-road and it’s too expensive for you… Why did you just watch this video?
my R1s back then still not riding as good as R1T it's just more bouncy and also louder from the air pump and suspension bit from the back. That's 5 months ago. Are you sure the current R1S really ride as better than R1T?
Great vehicle, but no lockers is a deal killer for an off-road vehicle that expensive. It's the very first thing you turn on when things get difficult. With that amount of ground clearance and HP, it's like Usain Bolt with a broken leg. Lockers is how you can tell a real off-roader from a pretender. I'd get the dual motor with at least a rear locker if it existed. And in the other video, it not having blind spot monitoring while towing a trailer is insane. You want more blind spot monitoring when towing, not less. I would have a really hard time buying a Cybertruck, but I would if it had a rear locker and this still doesn't.
With the Quad motor set up, I think lockers would be in the programming of the ride modes. Why would a vehicle with a motor on each wheel, without a transmission or diff, need a locker?
Still too low a range for serious towing for all those “Snowbirds” heading south with their fifth wheels in the Autumn. Perhaps the next generation of solid state batteries will solve the towing dilemma.
I will get an EV SUV when they can show me two things: 1 - load it up with the family and luggage then drive 300 miles in the winter w/o recharge 2 - 15-20min fast charge from 10-80%
It is going to be a long time before you can buy a Hummer SUV EV, without dealer markups. Rivian will get an adapter to get access to the Tesla Supercharger Network in 2024.
you think it is ok that an ev required as you suggest charging every 100 miles? perhaps if you are just around town, but the suv, ANY suv, needs to be able toTRAVEL...no? should my minivan require gass every half hour, especially if it takes 30 minutes???
@@AAutoBuyersGuide um, guess sarcasm cuts both ways, if you was even an attempt. but even if my van was towing at the limits, a ford suv or 150 were towing at the limits...ANY ICE vehicle towing at capacity....none would need to set for a half hour every hundred miles, would they?????? would they??
@@-_-_-_-318maybe where you are. Here in the Northwest it is Hydro, wind and solar overwhelmingly. We are in a transition phase away from dirty energy production and daily use in our vehicles.
It’s not quite that simple. They are spending on R&D for the next product line and that spend gets counted in this “loss”. The 40k loss isn’t a gross margin on sales loss, it’s a net loss divided by total expenses.
19:09 The camera really took the phrase "Make like a tree a leave" literally.
For Rivian - Give us R1S without air ride for much less money, for Tesala -Give us VAN for most efficent big family EV - 8 proper seats, sliding door and some cargo.
Excellent, Alex! Thank you. You are always thorough, and this is no exception. What I like a about this review is the work-vehicle aspect to it. Also, comparison to other vehicles with similar functionality and features is very helpful. I do like the R1S for my needs and price-point. It should do pretty well.
That 0 to 60 time with a load is nuts!
IKR
Most truck and SUV owners think they need to tow, when in truth they don't. They just want the ability to do so in those uncommon "If" cases.. Still, great video.
While you’re not wrong, being able to tow puts the U in SUV. And the tricky bit is not knowing where you’ll be in life in 5-10 years over the life of a vehicle: maybe you don’t tow today, but have been eying that boat or small camper.
@@StephenByersJ IDK, it seems to me that if you could afford one of these things, you could afford a boat or camper. If you have just enough for one or the other, then you’d probably get a less expensive truck or SUV, likea Rav4, that’s got decent towing capacity for something like a boat or small camper. In any case, if you actually intended to do that, you would.
I think the larger point is that most people, even if they tow something, still spend 80 - 90% of their time commuting, errand running, or “pleasure driving” in these vehicles, rather than actually towing anything. If I ever need to tow anything, I would just rent something.
Fun fact: TH-camr Type Ashton, who lives in Germany, made a point of mentioning that the Germans love towing too, but not with large trucks or SUVs. They’ll tow stuff with just about any kind of car (wagons are popular).
Great description of the towing characteristics, and the regenerative braking issues. Thanks! Subscribed.
Very interested in the R1S. For the past three years, I thought I wanted a model X until Rivian came along. To me, this is absolutely an SUV in my mind. I don’t consider the model X an SUV, or even a crossover, but I like it for what it is. I’m really afraid of the falcon wing doors on the model X… I just feel like they’re prone to have problems. The Rivian is everything that I want, great size great, fit and finish not too big not too small not two luxury, but not basic either.
The R1S and Model X fall on different sides of a similar coin but it's great to have more electrified options on the market. -Travis
@@AAutoBuyersGuide I agree. I’m a Tesla fan but so with so many good options out here now, I am really looking hard at a few other brands now. Rivian is at the top of my list now. Plus, no dealership to haggle with is really appealing!
Hi Alex, Great review as always. While I tow periodically with my Suburban, this gives me the info and confidence I needed to know about towing with my R1T, which I’ve had about a year and love it!
I'm pretty sure Alex is the only auto reviewer out there who has his own excavator.
Max Pack is 149kWh confirmed. Same volumetric size, same number of cells, just a different chemistry so save weight and efficiency.
Thanks for the thorough review, Alex, and for dividing it into two bit-sized chunks. So many reviewers compare specs and share what they've heard, but you really test vehicles in real-world situations. As another commenter noted, it's unlikely other popular reviewers have their own excavator (I'm jealous of your tilt-bed trailer!).
Keep in mind the "max pack" is a 16,000 dollar option! If you need to tow that buys a lot of diesel.
Now show it sling what people will actually do! Go get coffee in it. Maybe have your kids borrow it and do a bunch of 0-100 runs.
Lots of good points and rivian has fixed items since your post such as towing profiles and blended braking. I think the oil cooled Enduro motors tend to overheat on Regen less than the Bosch. They also don't have motor stall at zero rpm as badly and seem to have a better traction control system. Dual motor max pack towing a 4000lb trailer I've been getting 1.6 mi/kWh (220 miles of range) which is a pleasant surprise.
Have had a deposit on this for 10 months and still my front runner, though if the EV9 becomes available while I am still waiting I'll give it a close look. My only issue with the EV9 is range. I also have had a deposit on the EX90 since launch day but they seem to have gone radio silent on actual release time for that so getting less and less interested.
You'll enjoy either one, when they're not in the shop.
The R1S is the best vehicle I’ve ever owned. Definitely worth the wait.
If I could afford either of them, I’d probably go with the R1S over the EV9. The EV9 is kinda fugly, to me at least. The EX90 isn’t too bad looking, but seems like it would not be as spacious as the R1T.
I have seen a good amount these for the past couple of months in the Seattle area. I would argue that I have seen more of the R1S than the R1T.
Admittingly, I'm holding off getting an EV (next vehicle will be a hybrid). Fair question is will Rivian be in business 10 years from now (that is not an issue if you will lease the vehicle).
They’re getting closer to profitability(probably Q4 2024), they allegedly plan the R2 models in 2026 but that could get delayed, they have the funding available to keep them going if demand sours, the R1S is really the only electric off road vehicle available
They're being funded by Amazon, so, yeah.
Amazon owns voting stake equity amounts. They will-if just to keep Amazon in the automotive sector until they have their answer to taking over another sector.
Nice video Alex, but you mentioned the max-pack would add weight to the vehicle. It may, but not to the extent you mentioned. My understanding is the battery pack is the exact same pack as the large pack; only Rivian uses different chemistry to gain the extra 50kWh of battery capacity. So unless the fluid chemistry has a different weight, the weight will hopefully not be much different - if the max-pack is as rumoured to be the same pack size as the large pack. Love your videos, keep it up.
From what Rivian told me, it fits in the same battery tray as the current battery, but is larger and heavier. Denser cells almost always increase weight.
Can you please please review the sany you have!
Thanks for the long review. I can afford the RS1 but I am more interested in the EV9 for the interior space. Just got my RS1 config email last week after waiting since May 2022. I'm 6' 6", and car seats take up a huge amount of space. The only downside is range and a little less storage space.
Probably the first elextric SUV (that is at least available in the USA), that would be allowed to tow 3500kg in EU. Interesting!
Im really annoyed that they don't offer the off-road mode in the dual motor. If you run the numbers, the dual motor could be at least on par and potentially better off-road compared to the quad motor in terms of torque delivered to wheels off-road. Brake based TC is very well understood and mature and its relatively easy to program for wheel slip alone. With the Quad motor you have to control relative wheel speeds for differential action as well as for slip management and also be able to modulate torque and available grip. Dual motor with an LDS or locker in one or both axles would cream the quad motor off-road.
People tend to think that individual wheel motors is the holy grail for off-road since it can send power individually, but the truth is that the best off-road traction is a single power source and no differentials. With quad motor only 25% of total system power can ever reach a given wheel. With a single source locked system 100% of total system torque instantly and passively can be sent to any individually wheel. In order for a quad motor to be on par with a single locked system, each motor needs to be as powerful as the single power source system. You need 4x as much power to achieve the same torque bias....assuming perfect traction motor torque logic.
Example: Dual motor R1S rear motor torque - 305 lbs-ft. 13.7:1 reduction = 4178 lbs-ft torque at the ring gear. Quad motor R1S rear motor torque 247 x 2 = 494 lbs-ft. 12.9:1 reduction 3186 lbs-ft Torque at the "ring gear" per wheel (6372 for both combined). Throw away half the dual motor torque in wheel braking and the quad wins for available wheel torque. Lock the dual motor unit with a mechanical locker and the dual motor outputs 1000 lbs-ft more to the wheel with grip. 2600 lbs-ft more with the dual motor performance. Even throwing away half the torque in wheel braking the dual motor performance only has 500 lbs-ft less individual wheel torque compared to the quad. The truth is that a large single with traditional differential lockers is a superior off-roader to individual wheel motors every time.
There is an off-road (all terrain) setting for the dual motor models. There are not specific off-road sub-modes like rally, soft sand or rock crawl.
I have an r1s and can say for certain that it rides worse in many situations, is not nearly as solid feeling and is noticeably less quiet than my wifes ID4 or my 2018 f 150. A lot of money for the quality in my opinion.
Alex's information on Rivian's max pack is incorrect. As @Willibopper commented 2 days ago, the maax pack is 149kWh confirmed. Same volumetric size, same number of cells, just a different chemistry so save weight and efficiency.
which weight distribution hitch did you use?
Bro 19:09 why are you showing us a worm as the main camera?!
Might be nice, but is is really a practical car. Most people cannot afford it. Most EV’s are higher price than their ICE/Diesel counterparts. The luxury ICE SUV’s tend to have more room and larger towing capacity. If someone gave me one, I would drive it. But can’t afford it. I don’t need to climb mountain trails.
So if you’re not interested, you don’t think it’s practical, you don’t need to off-road and it’s too expensive for you… Why did you just watch this video?
Compare its price to a Tahoe or Expedition and you will find little difference.
my R1s back then still not riding as good as R1T it's just more bouncy and also louder from the air pump and suspension bit from the back. That's 5 months ago. Are you sure the current R1S really ride as better than R1T?
I liked it better. There have been software updates since we had our R1T however. Have you asked Rivian to check the suspension ?
Great stuff!
Great vehicle, but no lockers is a deal killer for an off-road vehicle that expensive. It's the very first thing you turn on when things get difficult. With that amount of ground clearance and HP, it's like Usain Bolt with a broken leg. Lockers is how you can tell a real off-roader from a pretender. I'd get the dual motor with at least a rear locker if it existed. And in the other video, it not having blind spot monitoring while towing a trailer is insane. You want more blind spot monitoring when towing, not less. I would have a really hard time buying a Cybertruck, but I would if it had a rear locker and this still doesn't.
With the Quad motor set up, I think lockers would be in the programming of the ride modes. Why would a vehicle with a motor on each wheel, without a transmission or diff, need a locker?
Spare tire?
26:21 *EPA rated* to go further on a charge, but they lie about all their models’ ranges
You lie.
Still too low a range for serious towing for all those “Snowbirds” heading south with their fifth wheels in the Autumn. Perhaps the next generation of solid state batteries will solve the towing dilemma.
For serious long distance haulers, a Diesel powered truck is still the way to go.
I will get an EV SUV when they can show me two things:
1 - load it up with the family and luggage then drive 300 miles in the winter w/o recharge
2 - 15-20min fast charge from 10-80%
Get your checkbook ready.
In 10 years I would think.
It is not as good as the Tesla Cybertruck!
… what? You mean there is no Cybertruck???
Cybertruck is not a three row suv.
R1S and R1T will need to drop in price soon. $80k+ for a 7 seat SUV is just too expensive..
It is going to be a long time before you can buy a Hummer SUV EV, without dealer markups. Rivian will get an adapter to get access to the Tesla Supercharger Network in 2024.
you think it is ok that an ev required as you suggest charging every 100 miles?
perhaps if you are just around town, but the suv, ANY suv, needs to be able toTRAVEL...no?
should my minivan require gass every half hour, especially if it takes 30 minutes???
I don't think your mini van is doing the same kind of towing as the R1S was when we're talking about the effect on range. -Travis
@@AAutoBuyersGuide um, guess sarcasm cuts both ways, if you was even an attempt.
but even if my van was towing at the limits, a ford suv or 150 were towing at the limits...ANY ICE vehicle towing at capacity....none would need to set for a half hour every hundred miles, would they??????
would they??
Can you make a review how your mental health is paying off the loan?
It’s not his, it’s on loan from Rivian for review. And how people pay their bills really isn’t any of your business
Nope! Nope!
EVs like this will save the planet. Just not this one.
almost nobody tows. Most SUVs and pickups are used as daily drivers.
not sure if trolling or insane
😂😂😂
Yes, those batteries, charged by nuclear and coal power stations and diesel generators, are saving the ecosystemz!!!
@@-_-_-_-318maybe where you are. Here in the Northwest it is Hydro, wind and solar overwhelmingly. We are in a transition phase away from dirty energy production and daily use in our vehicles.
Unfortunately they lose $40,000 on each vehicle
It’s not quite that simple. They are spending on R&D for the next product line and that spend gets counted in this “loss”. The 40k loss isn’t a gross margin on sales loss, it’s a net loss divided by total expenses.
Nobody cares.
No to electric
Yet here you are watching yet another video of an electric vehicle. 🙄
No to keytothegate68.