Oh Joe, this is such good stuff. Before becoming Catholic, I didn't have a strong concept of redemptive suffering. I didn't understand that Jesus calls me not only to glory, but to suffering. And that it's precisely through willingly taking up our suffering for the sake of Christ that leads to eternal life. This is why the apostles and martyrs went to their sufferings and deaths with joy, for the glory they knew would be theirs.
NOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!! ................. HERESYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!! ........................... ONLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY BY BEING WASHEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD BY THE BLOODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD OF JESUS CHRIST ARE WE NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT GOING TO BURNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN IN HELL !!! .................... POPEY FRANKIE IS 99.99% HELLBOUNDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD !!!
@@po18guy Hi, guy. The problem is, there are too many possible alternative explanations for Mike's behaviour. An obvious possibility is conscious intentional deceit. Among alternatives is Mike's understanding that Catholics are alternatively the ignorant deceived and the elaborate deceivers, which in either case renders any claim they make worthy not only of rejection but of refusal to consider.
I remembered your "Protestant Sprinkle" explanation when Joe quoted 2 Corinthians 5:8. When I explained it to a Protestant friend, himself a former pastor and very familiar with the Bible, he had to check several translations because he was certain that he read "to be absent from the body *is* to be present with the Lord" in the Bible.
@@linusloth4145 but rather be deceived by Protesting misrepresentation? White would have to impose another interp & literally go against the mass majority if not the entirety of the early church....the fathers have countless quotes on a Purgatorial Purifying fire. White should worry more about his conflicting Calvinism...your osas but God controls every action, every sin, every evil thing but would not let anyone fall away...the contradiction w/ scripture is massive
What Catholics have got *right:* - Christians do not go straight to heaven when they die - Nothing impure can enter heaven What Catholics have gotten *wrong:* - Christians need to undergo temporal punishment to make themselves worthy to go into Heaven. No pain, no gain. - That purification happens before the resurrection of the body (Catholics separate purification from glorification)
At 48:50, when you talk about taking up our cross...man alive that was SUCH a frustration for me as a non Catholic Christian. To summarize, the message of faith alone, detachment from spiritual practices because they were seen as "works" and of course, "works" were anathema...so, the murky waters of Protestant teachings were a huge struggle, but the struggle I longed for was that of which you speak (and the Bible speaks) and that was condemned!
This is the best exposition on Purgatory I've found! Also cool to see the Jewish sources, which I've only seen from a Jewish Friend sharing it with Me.
Fantastic episode Joe! I know the atheist ones are important but there are so many Christians in the world and I think if we all started studying the faith more and actually living it out it would make a huge difference. Most Christians I know (Bible belt Baptists) claim the title Christian but you would have no idea of it looking at their lifestyles (myself included until converting to Catholicism last year). I think the once saved always saved and "it doesn't matter if you sin Jesus has already forgiven you", leads so many Christians astray and is used as a license to sin. If all Christians started acting like Christians I believe that would change the world. Off to listen to the one on beauty now! Keep up the great work Joe! ❤
All are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith." Romans 3 " Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4 Purgatory after death is not real.
@@GodSoLoved.Yeshua do you want to get into a quote battle? Or, do you want to actually watch the video and engage his arguments? Because all you’ve done here is find the first comment and write the same old warmed over arguments with a proof text. God bless you on your spiritual journey.
What Catholics have got *right:* - Christians do not go straight to heaven when they die - Nothing impure can enter heaven What Catholics have gotten *wrong:* - Christians need to undergo temporal punishment to make themselves worthy to go into Heaven. No pain, no gain. - That purification happens before the resurrection of the body (Catholics separate purification from glorification, see 1 Corinthians 15:52)
Very enlightening. What a blessing! 1 Corinthians 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
Why is it a blessing to have more intense suffering than we ever had on earth, because we have to suffer more in purgatory? There's really nothing to look forward to, just worse than we even had on earth. I see no blessing in that.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Each case will be judged on its own merit but what is certain is that nothing unclean will enter heaven. James says: Cleanse your hands you sinners and purify your hearts you double-minded.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Jeanne, have you forgotten that encouraging passage in which He addresses you as son? God disciplines all those He receives as sons. If you are not disciplined, then you are not a son but a bastard. The present suffering is nothing compared to the glory to be revealed in us.
@@gregorybarrett4998 Yes, this present suffering, is present suffering, here on earth. Not in the next life. Otherwise, how could it even be said that there is no comparing our present suffering w/ the glory that is to come? See one is present, temporal and in this life and the glory is in the next life. Nowhere are we told that in the next life is yet more suffering.
I gained a better under of Purgatory by reading Luke 12:37-40 relating to when the master returns finding his servants in varying forms of readiness. The first servant, being faithful earns Heaven, the second servant is unfaithful & goes to Hell, whereas the other two servants are punished for their sins ie purgatory
That has no mention of purgatory, that's your interjection. "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left."
"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world"
I was talking with a friend who thinks Catholics aren’t Christians (neither of us are currently Catholic) She claimed that purgatory was used by Catholics to get away with continually sinning, but she also claimed that Catholics rely completely on good works (amongst many other bogus claims which usually were left without evidence) at the time I didn’t agree with purgatory really, but after hearing more about what Catholics actually believe it becomes very reasonable
Faith alone and not going to confession allows you to continually sin without repercussion. According to many Protestants all you gotta do is believe in the existence of God and you’re good regardless of how many sins you commit. It’s a nice idea but is it biblical? No not really
@@emoore1439 That’s what I was thinking, but I guess many people would say that people who continually sin were ‘never saved in the first place’ which doesn’t make much sense to assume. I wasn’t particularly guided on soteriology growing up and I naturally came to believe that salvation could be lost because of unrepentance and living in sin (I mean, it’s literally in the Bible)
Logically speaking, one certainly can pray for the dead if one does not believe in Purgatory. Think of it like this: 1) God is outside of time 2) God can apply the fruits of my prayers to the deceased before his death 3) Therefore we should pray for the soul of the deceased Also, Maccabees being referenced in the New Testament does not necessarily imply that it is canon. The letter of Jude references the book of Enoch, even referencing a prophecy from the book (this is off-topic but this fact means we can't use the fact that Wisdom contains a true prophecy as proof it is Scripture). Disclaimer: This is one of the best videos on the subject I have ever seen. I am Catholic and believe in Purgatory and that the deuterocanon is Scripture.
@@l21n18 The entire crux of the argument on Wisdom was that it had a true prophecy in it, and this was proof that it was Scripture. But this argument simply does not follow. Wisdom is Scripture simply and clearly because the Church judged it Scripture. No other reason needed.
I'm not saying the entire argument is bad, but using the Talmud is anything but a strong argument. Literally the Traditions of men Jesus spoke against. The Talmud also claims Adam's first eife was Lillith. The book is heavily inspired by Babylonian paganism. Rabbinic Judaism rejects the apocryphal/deuterocanonical books. I'm Protestant, and I agree there are fairly good arguments for some form of Purgatory, however that might look. I don't view any of the Orthodox churches as heretical. I see you all as brothers and sisters in Christ, and love you all. But PLEASE leave the Talmud alone. 😅 God bless you all. ❤🙏
Interesting argument. That a denial of purgatory is a demonic lie because it gives us an empty tomb without a cross. I’m going to ponder this more. Nice video.
@@seanfernandolopez9139 You can pray all you want for your dead loved ones but the choice of repentance and life or unrepentance and death is in the hands of the living . You make the choice for yourself not for someone else. Purgatory is well fabricated lie and those who do not read the scriptures for themselves will be easily taken in by this lie. There is no after death cleanup station as Christ has made the believer CLEAN. The importance of the shedding of the blood of Christ is underlined in several texts. We have been justified by His blood (Rom 5:9), and we have redemption through His blood (Eph 1:7). Peter reminds that we have been redeemed with the precious blood of Christ (1Peter 1:18-19). In 1 John and in the book of Revelation we read that we have been cleansed and washed from our sins by the blood of Christ (1John 1:7 and Rev 1:5). We have seen in Hebrews 9:14 that this same blood purges our consciences from dead works to serve the living God. Do you really think Jesus missed a sin or stain somewhere?
Thank you! I’m going to share this with a man in my Catholic Bible study class who converted from Protestantism and was asking some questions about Purgatory.
Tell him the truth, it's foolishness and tell him to convert back to being a Christian, he has gone astray, I can't imagine why he would do such a thing, I pray for both of you to find the Truth, and to not be deceived as you are now, turn to only Jesus, not saints and Mary magdeleann, and idols. Love always
@@dennis36511st and foremost, we worship no idols. We worship God and God alone in Himself, not through idols. We also do not worship saints or Mary or anyone else, only God through Jesus. If you adhere to the common Protestant ideas, I'm a Christian just the same as you, and to say otherwise is contrary to your beliefs of faith on Christ. Please educate yourself on the true teachings of the Church. God bless you
You pray to the saints and Mary , but praying belongs only to God, it's part worshiping Him, when you pray to someone else than Him, you're robbing Him of what belongs to him, that's Satanic.
@@dennis3651 I've never prayed to anyone but God. Worship belongs to Him alone. Stop with the protestant stereotypes please, it's called defamation and that is bearing false witness. We ask for saintly intercession as God is God of the living, not the dead, so thus those who have passed in Christ are more fully alive then we are, and they are praying for us. We do not pray to them, we simply ask them to pray for us
@@ForGondor-cv4jfwhen I went to mass with my dad they had a store inside the church (that's a separate conversation but I seem to recall Jesus not approving of selling inside the Father's house) and the store was full of statues of different people and Jesus and angels. I was told you can kneel before them and pray cause it helps you pray to Jesus. I remember that making me really uncomfortable as a child because obviously that's not Jesus. That's a piece of wood/ceramic or whatever material they used to make it. Why would I pray to an image of God when I can just pray to God himself?
I love the bit about how just because Maccabees isn't in Protestant Bibles, doesn't mean the events in it didn't happen. They clearly did happen. The overwhelming majority of non-fiction is not in the Bible; but that doesn't make it untrue.
@@ToddJambonmost likely? I thought RC teachings were that anyone who dies under an unconfessed mortal sin goes to hell? Have you a link to any definitive sources please? Thanks 🙏
Since there was no punctuation in Scripture, Jesus words could have been as such: "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise." The punctuation changes the time period.
But that is a 7th Day Adventist argument for soul sleep, and it makes no grammatical sense l, when else could Jesus say this except today? Is he going to say “truly I say to you a week from next Tuesday?”
@@Michael-bk5nz Grammatically it makes sense (and I've heard better scholars than myself say that it is just as gramatically acceptable either way in the Greek as well). I think you're saying not that the grammar (sentence structure) would make no sense, but that the meaning would be an unnatural thing to say - that there is no need to tell someone that it is 'today' that you are telling them what you are currently saying. But languages, including English, contain such 'meaningless' phrases to add emphasis as well, like "I'll tell you right now, that is funny," or "Look, I'm going to stop you from what you're saying right there." The phrase doesn't prove soul sleep but linguistically it can go either way. Jimmy Akin mentions it on Day 205 of the Daily Defense podcast on The Good Thief and Purgatory.
@@Michael-bk5nz Yes you rightly see that by Catholics delaying the entrance of Christians into heaven that it can lead to delaying the entrance until the final judgment (which some Church Fathers believed as admitted by Trent Horn)
Purgatory cheapens the cross. If sin is not fully paid for on the cross by Christ, then purgatory makes sense, because the remittance of sin needs to be dealt with due to the insufficiency of the power of God. But if God is sovereign, and all powerful then the death of his son, his angel, should be enough for the covering of the sin of all mankind. The onces for all sacrifice for all. The very nature of the sacrifice of Christ is to justify the wicked man. The ungodly man. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; If sin is not counted against you through salvation, then what is there to purify? There’s either a finished work IN Christ or there isn’t. Additionally, the finished work does not apply to the flesh it applies to the spirit. And if sin, according to Romans resides only in the flesh, then how does sin come with you to be purified in the spirit?
@@StringofPearls55 if you understand the cross, then it cheapens the cross. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 ESV Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- [13] each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. If purgatory is purification, then why does the believer hay/stubble suffer loss? What reward is given in purgatory pertaining to those whose works are burned up? One person gets reward, the other does not. What is the benefit of purgatory for the one who gets no reward? If the reward is heaven, then this can’t be purgatory, because the reward of purgatory’s purification is heaven, and the one who’s works are consumed receiving no reward. Works of hay and stubble receive bo reward, Therefore, under purgatories reward does not apply and this passage couldn’t possibly refer to purgatory. Both have their works tested by fire. Silver and gold RECEIVE a reward, hay and stubble does not. Yet both saved. One is as through fire indicating suffering total loss yet still saved.
I am not Catholic, but I do believe that an afterlife purging must occur, and this experience varies from individual to individual. It is a baptism by fire, where a person is immersed and then comes back cleansed. I have been through multiple debates with my Protestant friends on this topic, who take the thief on the cross stance. Yet, I always return with the argument that if Jesus meant today in a literal sense, then paradise is a part of Hades, since that specific day Jesus descended into the earth and did not return until the third day.
Why would a purging in the afterlife happen, when it's not mentioned anyway in the Bible. It does say we are saved and made righteous through faith in Jesus. In the book of Romans it's very specific. "we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation"
we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. Romans 5
@GodSoLoved.Yeshua I would never take away from the promises of God. Being justified is a legal position before the courtroom of God. Before the Great White Throne, a justified believer is automatically declared not guilty. So, from the eternal perspective, all believers will enter the new heavens and new earth. Yet, scripture is clear that believers must be prepared for that new reality. Hebrews 12 explains that a child of God must be chastised in order to partake in God's holiness. This is a painful experience, but necessary. In the modern church, there is a catering to people, convincing them that there are no afterlife consequences for believers. Yet, scripture is clear. In Matthew 25, the five foolish virgins were shut out of the wedding feast, revealing that attending such a feast is conditional. In the same chapter, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness for burying his talent, revealing afterlife consequences. Not only is the wedding feast conditional, but reigning with Christ is conditional as well (according to 2 Timothy). In Matthew 18, Jesus warned that those believers who do not forgive will be cast into prison until they pay what is owed. This is an afterlife prison sentence coupled with a release date. Many believers are not prepared to enter Paradise nor reign with Christ. Being a Christian is not an easy experience, for we must go through the fire (right now) in order to be prepared for what's to come. Either way, God will save to the uttermost those who come to Him. He will do whatever it takes to conform His people to the image of His Son.
Joe, this was a balanced take and honestly you were a lot more charitable than I thought you'd be. I never really watched your videos and I just kind of assumed with a name like "shameless popery" you'd be dunking on Protestants the whole time. A couple points: 1) The concept of purgatory---whether a place in space-time, a spiritual realm, or some sort of holy process that occurs after death---is Biblically reasonable and no thoughtful or honest protestant should deny this. Like you said, it isnt committing to anything beyond the idea that nothing unclean can enter heaven, and that most of us leave earth with some sin. 2) Most protestants find abhorrent idea of purgatory as a "mini-hell", and for centuries it was taught this way. The Catholic Church no longer espouses this idea in the literal sense, but it's hard to jettison all of that baggage. 3) the Good Thief argument is---IMO---the strongest argument against purgatory if there is one, because Christ says TODAY. Trying to bring some semantics into what "today" might have meant is ignoring the plain sense of the text and that Christ---as a man dying---was also speaking to another man dying on the cross. The plain sense of the text is that Jesus was saying to this man that because of his faith, he would be with the Lord in Paradise today. Now, because Jesus is God and can act outside of space-time, he could have very well done his business preaching to the souls in prison that very "day", as it were. 4) Many protestants wrongly conflate the finished and complete work of Christ with the abolition of any sort of temporal consequence for sin. They may admit to some civic or moral consequence on earth, but not in the afterlife. the truth is, none of us really know. Not all who are sinners get their just recompense on earth. And the New testament is clear on there being consequence for blatantly ignoring God's law. 5), lastly, I think the best resolution for this is for protestants to admit that some form of "purgation" or purification needs to occur in some way to satisfy God's justice, even for those who believe on the Son and are in friendship with God. Catholics, on the other hand, need to admit that none of us really know what that will look like, despite private revelations to mystics or traditional depictions of purgatory. It could be an instantaneous thing, it could be a process, it could a "place" in the spiritual realm. And maybe it's different for different people. The Bible simply is not clear on this, so we should avoid speculating and instead focus on the finished work of Jesus and obeying God's righteous laws.
2) there is a difference between theological speculation by theologians and magisterial teaching by the church, it’s not accurate to say “the church” taught that for centuries. 3) listen to what he said there’s not really and issue with the good thief
I'm sorry brother. That was as bleak as any Catholic presentation. Sounds like you're very close to becoming Catholic yourself. That aside, just kill me now and send me to hell, because if any of that was true, Christ never really offered much. I'm still a sinner left to pay for my own sins, grace is very limited and means next to nothing. It kinda sorta covers something, but not really, and by those beliefs, I have not much to look forward to in the next life. Just total insecurity, can't rely on any promises, because they are all waffly anyways. There is no blessed assurance that suffering is finally over in this life. Nope, probably, more than likely still suffering in the next life anyway. Holy smokes, I'd rather be anniliated, or never be born at all.
Also, that the good thief was allowed instant glory does not mean that everyone else experiences the same. He was crucified and killed right next to the Lord. It is likely the holy spirit could have infused him with perfect contrition right then. Most of us don't go through something even close to this when we are dying. Additionally, the church has never taught that purgatory has to last an hour, a day, a week, etc. He could have undergone purgation and entered heaven on that day.
@@franciscomelgoza2799 That is purely conjecture, just like everything about purgatory. Many people suffer horribly before dying. Many of them for years, so that doesn't even make sense. Some kids are born suffering and that's all they do into adulthood, and it's through no fault of their own. Which the thief on the cross admitted to his crimes. We are all infused w/ perfect contrition, when we confess, as in our sins our absolutely and completely absolved. No need for purgatory, no need for punishment. Sometimes are sins are such that they still reap bad consequences, but that is different from further punishment.
@@franciscomelgoza2799 Yes, by uniting his suffering with Christ, St. Dismas was likely purified on the cross. May we all offer our suffering, prayers, and sacrifices for the reparation of sins so that we, too, can enter Heaven quickly.
I always attend the Traditional Latin Mass instead Pope Paul VI's rite of Mass, the vernacular one. During funeral Masses I've attended that use that rite, the priests assumed that the departed souls went to heaven. Protestants assumed the same thing a Protestant wakes. But if they went to purgatory, they need our prayers. But if we think they're in heaven, we won't pray for them. We unknowingly neglect them while they suffer,
Pretty much without fail, I start watching one of these videos and start writing a comment, only to find that you directly address the point I was going to make before I finish writing. If your channel has trouble growing, consider making slightly worse arguments so as to increase your listener engagement.
Hey Joe I love your content brother! One of my favorite biblical presentations of purgatory is Luke 12:35-48 4 possible outcomes- Heaven (vs.43-44) Hell (vs.45-46) Severe punishment (vs.47) Light punishment (vs.48) Clearly, individual knowledge of the masters will is a determining factor in the outcome of each person, which, along with showing us potential temporary punishment on judgement day, shows us degrees of sin (mortal or venial) which factors into our judgement. Please keep up the amazing work you do. Peace.
"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast" Ephesians 2
@saintejeannedarc9460 you must have not watched the video. Or like an athiest who "reads" the bible but their eyes are purposefully closed. Joe talked quite a bit in detail and dare I say he still left things out that would further prove purgatory
@@TitusKingdom I watched the video. I've seen plenty of them on purgatory. It's a fairy tale place, a Grimm's dystopian fairy tale, thankfully, and it's not biblically supported. It crept into the Catholic church over the centuries, but Jesus, nor his apostles ever taught it or supported it.
Hi Joe, thanks for this exposition. According to Dr Brant Pitre of Catholic Productions, another telling argument for Purgatory comes from Jesus Himself, in Luke 12: 40 - 48, when He relates the parable of preparing for His second coming: “You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him … Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? … It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns.” Depending on how the steward performs that work of mercy, Jesus gives four outcomes for the Day of Judgment, not two, which clearly infer a third realm of purgation.
There is another interesting reference to Heaven, Hell and Purgatory by Jesus in the New Testament - Luke 12: 35-48. Purgatory relates to the severity of the 'blows'.
Instead of being a biblical teaching, the doctrine of purgatory is primarily based on the apocryphal book 2 Maccabees 12:42-46, which records Jews praying for their fallen dead (“Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” 2 Mac. 12:46). However, 2 Maccabees never claims to be Scripture; in fact, 1 Maccabees 9:27 denies its own inspiration (“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.”). Moreover, Jesus (and the NT writers) never cite from these books, as inspired Scripture. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church didn’t recognize 2 Maccabees as Scripture until the 16th century, when Martin Luther spoke out strongly against purgatory (see “The Apocrypha”). In conclusion, we should make a rather simple observation about purgatory. The early Christians went around preaching the “gospel” or “good news” about Christ’s death for our sins. However, what is “good news” about paying off your own sins in purgatory for hundreds or thousands of years? We find this to stretch our credulity.
I think you need to study actual Church history. As indicated in the video, the references to Purgatory are not limited to the Maccabees book, which are Deuterocanonical - *not apocryphal* . The books were included in the OT canon of the Septuagint, which is the OT canon of Scripture used by the Early Christians. The NT canon would not be discerned, compiled, & completed so that the Early Christians would finally have a completed Christian Bible for almost 400 years after Pentecost. Thank the Catholic Church for this because it gave us the completed Christian Bible. This is actual history that can credibly verified. If you like the KJV of the Bible, which originated about 1611, which version do you use - the original one that contains the Deuterocanonical books that you call apocryphal - or the more modern versions that had the Deuterocanonical books removed (& on that note, by what authority were they removed when they’d been part of the body of the Christian Bible from its beginnings?) Seeing that there was no completed Christian Bible until almost 400 AD, what then did the Early Christians have in its absence? Thoughts? 🤔
Purgatory is only for the saved. It is a final purification before entering into heaven because nothing impure can enter heaven, & while Scripture informs that our sins are forgiven, it doesn’t state that we are freed from its temporal effects. Our God is a consuming fire - the consuming fire of Love that loves us too much to leave dross in us. Consider the words of the prophet in the OT: From Isaiah 6 KJV: 6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 *Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone* ; *because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips* : *for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts* . 6 *Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar* : 7 *And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged* . Thoughts? 🤔
@@kainosktisis777 The apocrypha was not included in the Sanhedrin Cannon. They were included by Gentile men in the Septuagint. The Sanhedrin used the Tanakh. As did the first century Jews of the first century church. The Septuagint didn’t form until the later half of the first century. Decades after the church at started. And the Roman Catholic Church never considered them canon until Trent. They read from them and disagreed on them, as evident by Jerome and augustines contrary writings, but they were never formally declared until Luther blatantly rejected them, and Trent canonized them in response to Luther. I read from the Masoretic text of the original Greek, which in english is the revised standard version that the Catholic Bible uses. Specifically a favor the ESV, because the English is a little smoother but they are 99% the same. There was a complete Bible before the church age even began. It was called the Tanakh and Christ in his disciples quoted from the Tanakh over 200 times. “It is written”. The New Testament is simply the fulfilling text of the Tanakh. The life of Christ in the gospel can survive solely on verbal declaration and the Tanakh. The Gospel Never needed the New Testament but praise God we’ve got it. The New Testament, the gospel writings, plus, the letters were in circulation long before council decree. - Irenaeus (AD 180): We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. (Against Heresies, 3:1.1) Friend, you’re talking to a man who knows his church, church history and the Bible. I will meet you on any Battle Ground, including yours. BRING IT!!!
Great episode! So many of these issues have to do with the dichotomy between imputed and infused grace. Purgatory makes little sense if grace is exclusively imputed. Because then grace truly does “cover” everything. If grace is infused then it makes sense that after death the imperfect soul has need of being completely conformed to Christ.
“Is Purgatory Biblical?” is truly one of your best videos ever. Especially the Old Testament typology. Jesus said, Matthew 5:17-20 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them...”Mat5:17-20
First, thank you for this great video! Second, let me say I'm definitely open to the idea of purgatory but still searching for truth on it, which is why I'm here, hah! I'm still in the process of watching and will update this comment if my thoughts change, but here's how I'm perceiving the information, ESPECIALLY, as it relates to 1 cor: Jesus is the foundation. The different building materials are the different denominations/beliefs. Because those beliefs are ADDING TO what Jesus has established, as Jesus stated - you will then be judged by that which you have judged others. In other words, Catholics can come along and add whatever rules they want, but when the developers and believers die, they will be judged by those measures, and if found to be in good faith, will be purified and elevated to heaven. If you are a Christian who believes whole heartedly you only need to believe in Jesus as the savior (without any additional rules), you will be judged/purified based on that measure. Kind of like - you've been mislead, but have acted in good faith thinking you were following the word of God. But because Jesus made it clear he was the only way and accepting him was all that was needed, but you added all these things in top of that, he will now judge and purify you based on what you believed/built. Again, I could be way out in left field, but that's where I'm at with this. Jesus attended a feast, but that doesn't mean he supported it, just as he ate with sinners but didn't condone it; it was the pharisees who claimed that because he ate with sinners he was in support.... kinda seems like the same argument. Also, the passages mentioned show that people were doing things in HOPES that it MIGHT persuade God. There's no confirmation from God that these behaviors yielded the intended outcome. People all throughout the Bible hope and pray for many Things, just because they did it doesn't mean God provided it. This would explain why different people throughout the Bible make it to heaven via different paths. Some go straight there while others don't 🤷♂️
I think the best pro-purgatory biblical argument is Luke 12:35-48. You have 4 servants waiting for their master to return. The first is the faithful and wise servant who will be put over the household. The second beats the other servants and gets drunk (i.e, behaves badly) and is cut in pieces and placed with the unfaithful. The third knows the Master's will but doesn't act on it and isn't ready. He receives a severe beating. The fourth mistakenly does what deserves a beating. He receives a light beating. These are all servants (i.e, not unbelievers). The master has shown up (it's the Day of the Lord) and is judging them. One is blessed and placed over the master's possessions (heaven/new heaven and earth) one ends up with the unfaithful (in hell) and two receive lesser punishments but notably aren't cut in pieces or placed with the unfaithful.
I don’t believe that has anything whatsoever to do with purgatory. “From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked” A better argument than this can be paraphrased as “with great power comes great responsibility “ This parable is more the idea of being held responsible for what we have or what we know and what we do with it. God Bless 🙏
@@scottie8365 there is absolutely no reason to believe Jesus isn't describing what happens after death aka when the master arrives when elsewhere he uses the same expression to describe the same thing. It just doesn't fit into your theology so you have to find anyway you can to twist it
The Good Thief died under the Old Covenant and wasn't welcomed into heaven upon death because the paradise to which Christ refered was not heaven but Abraham's Bossom or the Limbo of the Fathers. Christ didn’t ascend to heaven after His soul departed from His body on the cross, but went down to Hades to liberate all the righteous who lived during the Old Testament period and were waiting for heaven to be opened to them so they ckuld.make the transition. No one went to heaven until after the resurrection. This is basic Christianity 101, so where did you get the idea fom that Dismus (the good thief) went to heaven.immediately upon his death? Because you didn't get it from the Bible or the Church.
The good thief went to paradise just as Jesus went to paradise. Jesus did not go to heaven before his resurrection. Thus paradise and heaven are not the same place. Purgatory addresses as to how a saved person must be purified before entering heaven
@@ultimouomo11 Purgatory cheapens the cross. If sin is not fully paid for on the cross by Christ, then purgatory makes sense, because the remittance of sin needs to be dealt with due to the insufficiency of the power of God. But if God is sovereign, and all powerful then the death of his son, his angel, should be enough for the covering of the sin of all mankind. The onces for all sacrifice for all. The very nature of the sacrifice of Christ is to justify the wicked man. The ungodly man. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; If sin is not counted against you through salvation, then what is there to purify? There’s either a finished work IN Christ or there isn’t. Additionally, the finished work does not apply to the flesh it applies to the spirit. And if sin, according to Romans resides only in the flesh, then how does sin come with you to be purified in the spirit?
I was thinking that too. Some kind of Baptism by desire. Jesus refered to his crucifixion as a baptism. Also, just because Christ was on earth still during His crucifixion and in the tomb before resurrection doesn't mean He can't be in heaven at the same time. It's not impossible for God to stay united with the other 2 persons of the Trinity in heaven. Our minds sometimes are so limited.
Please watch the entire video. It is explained. Catholics believe in imputed AND infused righteousness because we do not base our theology on only scriptures that imply imputation. If one takes scripture in its entirety, one can see that God does not just "count" us as righteous, but through Christ working in us, actually converts us to become righteous. There is the initial righteousness and then continued sanctification. Please do not base your belief on only a few selected versus of scripture out of context. For example if you read the entirety of 2nd Corinthians, and not just verse 21 from chapter 5, you will see that simple imputation is not what Paul is trying to explain to the Corinthians. Peace of Christ be with you.
@@paularnold3745 There is the initial righteousness, you claim, and then we can slip in and out of righteousness. I don't think the entirety of scripture supports this at all. Quite the opposite. Jesus saves, it even says he saves to the uttermost, which would mean completely, not partially, not peacemeal, and not just a little bitty bit at a time. Which is what Catholic theology amounts to. Just little bits at a time, not completely, and Christ's suffering was not at all enough, we have to add our own suffering to be properly saved and purged. Not just suffering in this world, which is considerable, and clearly biblical. What is not biblical is us suffering in the next world, to complete the work that Christ started, but seemingly couldn't finish it, so we have to finish it. I remember Jesus saying, "It is finished" on the cross. This is huge, thanks to God, he did not say, I got it started for you, now finish it yourselves.
@@saintejeannedarc9460You can clearly lose your righteousness through sin as is evidenced in Paul's epistles to the churches and Jesus admonishing the churches in the book of revelation. What do you think repentance is?
Well Joe, you know -- even if the RCC doctrines (on the current topic, Sola scriptura and others related to actual salvation) are correct, I still have some problems with the RCC and many of their other doctrines. However, so far, you are the best apologist for the Catholic viewpoint that I have come across so far. Nevertheless, considering all of the disagreements in how we are supposed to get saved and stay that way between all of the different factions -- it makes me wonder along with one of the Apostles (can't recall which one); Who then can be saved?! It might even be argued that the scriptures could have been a bit more specific and told us explicitly with no possibility of error or wrong interpretation. 🙏✝️👑✝️🙏
All blessing to you, Joe. I would personally consider this a secondary doctrine that we can safely disagree on as long as we agree on the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for all sin, the efficacy of belief in the Gospel for receiving salvation, and the evidence of personal transformation in those believers. On purgatory, I could certainly be wrong, but here is how I see it: Jesus himself is the holiness necessary for us to enter into Heaven. Indeed we must suffer with Him, but that in itself does not demand the necessity of purgatory. We suffer in this life for the name of Christ and this should be counted a certainty. To be fair, it's hard to be fully convinced that purgatory is a fabrication, but I'm not seeing how scripture guarantees it either. All of the examples could simply apply to this life. My fear regarding purgatory is actually similar to the issue with "easy believism": that it may stand in the way of someone truly submitting and being sanctified now if they think they are "good to go" and that they can procrastinate until purgatory. Hebrews 10:12-18 indicates it is all accomplished by Christ our Priest, and Romans 8:18 contextualizes the suffering Paul is speaking of as present sufferings, and he is doing so so as to encourage the believers in Rome to endure and not lose heart. Romans 7 also gives a glimpse into Paul's thinking on this: we have already died to the Law and are alive in Christ so that we may do good works in this life. But he acknowledges our continued struggle with the flesh, culminating in a question and answer in verse 24-25. I feel Scripture is clear on this: Jesus has done all that is necessary. There is no condemnation for those in Him and aside from that, there is no explicit mention of purgatory anywhere. It seems to me, if it was meant to be a central doctrine there would either be an explicit mention OR there would be sufficient, unambiguous examples (as is the case with the Trinity). I see how the verses you are using could be applied to a working doctrine of purgatory, but they don't seem reliably concrete for this particular argument. 🤷♂ I'm certainly NO expert here though!
One of the best arguments against for me is 1 Cor 15:51-52. It quite clearly tells us that the last generation don’t go to purgatory. So if our almighty God can glorify the living instantaneously,in the twinkling of an eye why can’t he do it with the dead? I’m a strong believer in imputation too and from 2 Cor 5:21 I believe we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Is purgatory saying Christs righteousness isn’t enough? The “nothing impure can enter heaven” verse isn’t an argument,I am not disputing that just saying that the purification is done in a different way. And with 1 Cor 3:10-15 couldn’t that be more linked to the judgment seat of Christ? The purgatory verses from Maccabee’s are fraught with many problems too,they were killed for idolatry and I was under the impression that those who died under an unconfessed mortal sin went straight to hell. There’s problems everywhere with the doctrine. God Bless 🙏
@@scottie8365 Great example, thanks for that! I agree with you about imputation. It is a tough doctrine for some people. The Gospel itself is so good it can seem hard to believe. "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
Purgatory is only possible because of Jesus and his gift of Mercy to us. As to whether this is secondary and can be disagreed about I would point to the constant practice of praying for the dead and the Teaching's of the Church in her Ecumenical Councils notable Florence. But if your coming from a protestant perspective that's arguing the whole big question of what authority and guidance has God given his Church.
The Bible doesn’t tell us much about the thief on the cross. Certainly not enough to prove or disprove a doctrine. It’s a beautiful account of a man facing deadly punishment but unexpectedly finding his savior. It shows that even while in agony, Christ’s heart was for His sheep. And more. It doesn’t tell us that purgatory doesn’t exist. Or baptism isn’t the ordinary means to salvation. Or other false theories people add into the story. Hard cases make bad laws, and favored short stories don’t replace the rest of the Church’s scriptures and teaching.
Let's admit, if there were no such thing as Purgatory, we'd nearly all of us be screwed. To die in grace is not as easy as some think, but to die with NO attachment to sin, having done penance for all one's sins, is something only the great saints accomplish. I remember a story about St. Philip Neri, who led thousands of faithful on a pilgrimage in Rome. He was given knowledge from above that of all the pilgrims, only two gained the plenary indulgence offered: himself and a certain Ignatius of Loyola.
What Catholics have got *right:* - Christians do not go straight to heaven when they die - Nothing impure can enter heaven What Catholics have gotten *wrong:* - Christians need to undergo temporal punishment to make themselves worthy to go into Heaven. No pain, no gain. - That purification happens before the resurrection of the body (Catholics separate purification from glorification, see 1 Corinthians 15:52)
@@masinaverde901 Catholics teach the soul is in purgatory aka sheol/hades. That is underground aka the grave. Purgatory is not in heaven, the soul is not in heaven.
I had an immediate thought on how to visualize purgatory. We've been invited to a feast but we are at different levels of cleanliness; some of us are lightly dusty/dirty and need a quick washing up while others have oil/dirt deeply ingrained in our hands and need much longer or stronger washing to fully clean ourselves so we are presentable. Don't know if that's a helpful visualization or if it could use some more thought to draw out something that could help but that's my initial thought 2min in.
You are invited to a feast and you go because Christ has made you completely clean. Quit looking at your flesh as if it going to heaven as it is not. Your spirit born again by God is safely placed in the heavenly realm with Jesus Eph 2"6 and your flesh is to do the works that God created us for Eph 2:10 and yes our flesh is riddled with sin but for the believer all those sins have been paid for and we living in sinful bodies are not subject to the law of sin and death.
@@susanm2291 A judgment that Jesus will preside over is referred to as the Sheep and Goat Judgment or the Judgment of the Nations (Matthew 25:31-46). Some interpreters equate this judgment with the Great White Throne Judgment, but there are differences, a one being that the judgment is based on how people treated Jesus’ “brothers,” that is, the people of Israel (Matthew 25:40). Considering its placement after Jesus’ second coming, the Sheep and Goat Judgment will most likely determine the earthly fate of those who are alive at the time of Christ’s return (Matthew 25:1-30). During this judgment, Jesus will separate the “sheep” from the “goats.” The sheep are believers who gave evidence to their faith by helping the Jewish people during the tribulation; the goats are unbelievers who portrayed their unbelief by failing to help Jews during the tribulation (Matthew 25:33-36, 41-43). Those who rejected Christ and took the side of the beast during the tribulation “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). The problem is we tend to look at judgement of good and bad as one big judgement and not many different judgements. We as believers who are not guilty of sins anymore because of our repentance and subsequent complete cleaning by the Lord's complete sacrifice for sins , will still be judged by Jesus for what we did with what He has given us and some of us will enter heaven without anything to show for our lives. 1 Cor 3:10-15 is an example of what good or what useless works were done while alive.
@@susanm2291 Sheep are the believers and goats are not . Wheat and the tares believers nonbelievers. 1 Cor 3:10-15 judgement seat of Christ where believers are judged , salvation and sin are not in question but what you did with what Christ provided for you to work with is.
So is the 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 reference not about judgement day rather than purgatory? If the day will reveal it? Coming from a place wanting to understand. Protestant investigating Catholicism.
I would like to point out Mike only quoted half that verse the full section he quoted is this: 1 St John 1:6-10 DRC1752 [6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. [7] But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanse us from all sin. [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Take a look at how many ifs there are
That's how Catholic theology is formed. They don't fully rely on the bible anyway, and are not bound to it. Catholic theology was formed on ecumenical councils and highly politicized votes, where greed, ladder climbing, nepotism, and paying your way in was all involved. There was not a full bible canon for the first few centuries, though the bible scriptures were in circulation, there were many apocryphal books that also go into forming Catholic theology that is still held to today. Because they claim they can't err, they can't and won't go back and correct what isn't well supported in scripture. That is why I have to stay w/ sola scriptura, w/ the bible being primary and any tradition being secondary, never equal, and certainly not above or cancelling scripture out when it collides w/ cherished theologies already formed and entrenched.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 the Catholic Church is bound by the Bible. the only reason that the Bible wasn't circulated was because they were all written by hand and it would take up to 3 years for the Bible to finally be fully written. So bibles were highly expensive and would cost around $100,000 in today's money. It just wasn't possible for them to circulate bibles at that time. As for not leading the church in err these verses say: 1 Timothy 3:15 DRC1752 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. John 16:13 RSVCI [13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
You used the CCC 1030 to define purgatory as being “after death they undergo purification.” Yet you said at 37:47 it would be fine from a Catholic perspective if the thief immediately went to heaven… then you quote Saint Augustine “ you can have your purgatory on this earth”…. So which is it, after death or during this life? Are you claiming that the suffering the thief experienced fully purged him or this a contradiction?
@po18guy that’s not what the Catholic catechism says. It only says purgatory exists for people “after death.” CCC 1030 "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. Mt 12:31.
@@ninjason57 Did you watch the same video? St Augustine said purification or purgation occurs both before and after death. Purgatory is the name given to the state or location of Souls undergoing this after death.
@@jeremysmith7176 I actually watched the video multiple times to make sure I was listening correctly. Do you not see the contradiction in your own comment? You say purgatory occurs both before and after death yet in your definition of purgatory it’s after death.
Yes . I think you're right about sin not following us. We are forgiven. Through Christ. However the temporal side of the ledger has to be reconciled. Romans 8:10 relates to the concept of Purgatory by signifying that even though a believer's physical body dies due to sin, their spirit remains alive through Christ and is destined for Heaven, but may still need purification from lesser sins ("the last penny") through a temporary state of suffering called Purgatory before reaching full communion with God.
Good introduction. Very simple, but does beg one question. If those in Purgatory are by default elect, and therefore, saved, thus bound for heaven, is Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross insufficient to actually and completely cleanse someone to the point where someone is bound for heaven? At that point, all Jesus does is allow us to go to purgatory, and we earn heaven ourselves. I will say that I agree with Jerome, that the apocrypha are not canonical.
@CatholicDefender-bp7my it is generally bad form to answer a question with another question, however, I will respond in kind. Have you ever seen the episode of Star Treck Enterprise, where are Phlox creates a cure for a species then refuses to give it to them? What good did said cure do? All the people it was meant for were left to their fate. What good does an open door do? If the one who opens it doesn’t bring us in, we are earning our own way in. So my question is this, does Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross actually bring us into heaven, or does our own works?
Solid question. 1. We have obvious theological differences, because to us there is no "elect by default." So that shows why you have conflict on the belief of purgatory. 2. Going through or doing something for the Lord pleases Him but does not earn something from Him. According to protestants, in order to be saved you must accept and believe in Christ. Does that mean you earned heaven by believing and accepting Christ? I'll be confident to say both Catholics and non Catholics can agree that we don't.
@@seanfernandolopez9139 If I may, please allow me to address both of your points. And I apologize if they don’t come out the most clear, I’m rather under the weather. 1) I do agree, we most likely do have obvious theological differences. And I am still working on the whole “elect” concept, mostly because by default that would then therefore mean that those who aren’t would then be equally predestined, from before the time of creation, created to be thrown into hell. I think in my point on the elect in my comment was intended in a different manner. Assuming on to be elect, that would then mean a certain thing. Different placing of words can mean different things, as I’m sure we may agree to. 2) I think we may be closer than one may expect on this point. I try, and regularly fail, to not assume that is a person is of a certain theological tradition, or thought process in general, that they all thing and believe the same thing, or even are in 100% lockstep with their own creed. I am still working on the whole works/faith salvation thing. As things stand now, I fail to see how faith is not an indicative, are active, action one takes, in my mind, making it no different from a work, theoretically speaking. So in the spirit of honesty, I’m still not convinced how salvation works, from either lens.
It was explaned can be either or both. Taking up the cross means suffering or going through hardships in the name and friendship of the Lord. I'm confident that we can agree that they're not referring to a physical wooden, lifesize cross.
While on earth we take up our cross, yes. The apostles nor did Jesus teach about purgatory in the after life. It actually defeats the purpose of the cross✝️ "He gave His only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" its a gift so no one may boast. Why would you work off a gift? 🎁
There seems to be a massive leap between premise 2 and the conclusion of the Akin-Fradd argument. Romans 8:10 says, "But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Isn't the fact the flesh dies and the spirit alive proof that sin doesn't continue to the afterlife?
Luke 16:25-2625 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ That's all we need to know.
This is a misunderstanding of what purgatory is. Purgatory does not save people from hell. Everyone in purgatory is going to be saved, no one crosses from hell to heaven.
In regards to the Thief on the Cross I've never understood how it would be a problem for him to have immediately entered heaven. Many protestants believe that children who never made a personal act of faith can be saved. We both agree that God isn't bound to our ordinary means of salvation, that fact doesn't disprove either one of us.
Christ says in Matthew that, like Jonah, he would be in the belly of the earth for 3 days. Acts tells us Christ remained on earth for 40 days before He ascends. So there were 43 days BEFORE Christ went to Heaven. Did the good thief go ahead of the Lord to make sure the lights were on for His arrival? Or, more likely, Paradise that Christ mentions, is Abrahams Boosom. The place where the prisoners Christ preached to in 1st Peter were awaiting the Messiah😂😂
@@Kefa...I'm not commenting on whether or not the theif on the cross immediately entered heaven I'm pointing out that the argument assumes that an exception to purgation disproves purgatory whereas protestants allow exceptions to their own understanding of salvation.
In her cycle of radio plays about the life of Jesus, The Man Born To Be King, Dorothy L. Sayers presents the Good Thief (traditionally called Dismas) in a way that she says may not be consistent with the beliefs held by the church (Anglican or Catholic), but that she thinks makes for better drama. In her Crucifixion scene, Dismas initially thinks that Jesus is a lunatic, and when he says “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom,” he’s doing it purely out of kindness, trying to humor and comfort a madman who doesn’t deserve to be executed at all. So although Dismas hasn’t reformed his life, he has enough love for others that even when dying in torments, he goes out of his way to lessen the suffering of someone he thinks is merely an innocent madman. Then, when Jesus tells him that he will be with him in Paradise, Dismas realizes that Jesus isn’t insane, and by the grace of God believes in Jesus - and receives some of the comfort he tried to give to Jesus. It does present Dismas as worthy of salvation, but in an unusual way…
Two questions, well 3 - First, why does the Orthodox Church, despite praying for the dead 'out of love', not believe in Purgatory, since there was only one Church for the first 1,054 years? Second, 1 Cor 3:13-17 is talking about the Day (ie: Last Judgement) so how are we purified now? Lastly, Rev 21 is talking about the new heaven (and the new earth) and is not talking about people dying now and going to 'heaven' now. Or is there no one in heaven until after the Last Judgement? (at which point 1 Cor 3:13-17 and Rev 21 would make sense). I genuinely would like an answer to these but no Catholic apologist has addressed them. Many thanks.
According to the Catholics I know, purgatory is not to be understood as a place, but as a process for a moment. But a "moment" is indescribable in the eternal state. The thing I'd add for Christian clarity is that it's for testing works done for the Kingdom, not to bring about additional suffering for judgment's sake.
Douay-Rheims Bible:"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment." No mention of any purification or purge of sin or whatever... That purification happens here on earth. With the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:11 (: "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11 : "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." We were washed. Said that.... I believe the bible that theres no inbetween.... just heaven or hell...
We're watching and it's painful to see the grace of God annulled and his full forgiveness made of little affect. The atonement doesn't atone for much w/ this doctrine.
Quite the contrary, the atonement would be quite pointless if attachment to sin were allowed to enter into heaven. The atonement has saved us, but has not freed us from attachment to sin. Anyone who claims they are free of all sin is a liar. Purgatory is rather an extension of God's mercy and grace. We enter into heaven white as snow, not as snow covered dung heaps as Luther claimed.
@@franciscomelgoza2799 The bible definitely says that we've all sinned and any who say they have not sinned are lying. What it does not say is that we have to be free from all attachment to sin to enter heaven. If you can find that, site the scriptures. Because what the bible does say in detail is that our carnal body is what keeps us attached to sin. Our spirit is willing, but our flesh is weak. It also says that to absent in the body, is to be present w/ the Lord. Like the thief on the cross, is a glaring example, who was promised to be in paradise that day. When we are released from this body of sin and death, attachment to sin will not be an issue in our glorified bodies. That's what the bible teaches. Have no idea where purgatory, or needing to be free from attachment to sin came from.
Glaring example it is not. Just because the good thief who was killed next to Jesus Christ and probably experienced perfect contrition in the presence of the logos incarnate and the savior does not mean that everyone does has the same experience. Also, the church has never taught that purgation necessarily takes more than an hour or a day. He could have undergone purgation on that day and entered into paradise. The Jews to this day still pray for their dead. All the apostolic churches do as well. I would rather follow the traditions that the Lord followed as well as Ancient Christianity than a doctrine from Luther or Calvin.
@@franciscomelgoza2799 Calvin and Luther have nothing to do w/ the thief on the cross, and what Jesus personally told him, that this day he would be in paradise. And yes, you would rather follow your church traditions, rather than the words of our Lord, written in scripture. This is yet another instance of what is constantly denied by Catholics, that their traditions are not above scripture, yet in practice they clearly are. Your church most certainly has taught that purgatory is a long and painful process. This is where indulgences come from. To earn you or your loved ones from long, painful stays in purgatory. Though indulgences are no longer sold, they are still offered for arbitrary acts. The pope, the apparent key holder of everything on heaven and earth, will give one day offers that if you walk through certain doors in a fancy pilgrim church, that you are granted a plenary indulgence. Then there's treasury of merit. He can dip into the merits of saints who have many more merits than us, and share them out to those that seek indulgences. Nothing remotely is in the bible, there aren't even scriptures for this, that I know of, but it's tradition and since your church is not bound by the bible, it can claim whatever it wants.
I believe in purgatory but isn't the conclusion, "C", in the Akin-Fradd argument leaving out the possibility that all the unclean go to hell? Wouldn't that be the natural conclusion to premise A and B? Why would one assume those who die in sin would be purified and not damned?
That's right, and Fradd actually points this out in the longer form of the argument that he gave in an early Pints with Aquinas episode (I think it's episode 4?). St. John says that "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8) So it's true that a Protestant could bite the bullet and say, "that's right, no one (or next to no one) goes to heaven," but I think few would go this far. In any case, interpreting John in this way doesn't work well, since John ALSO distinguishes between the kind of sin that is mortal and the kind of sin that isn't (1 John 5:16). This seems to clearly say that there are sins we might die still attached to in some way (what are today called "venial" sins) that won't lead to our eternal damnation. But since venial sin is still an impurity, this also suggests the need for a purgation of some kind that's distinct from damnation.
@@shamelesspoperyI didn't get a notification that you responded to my comment but I will check that episode out. Thanks for explaining and clarifying that for me, makes a ton of sense. And thanks for the quick and lengthy reply. I appreciate you and the work you do brother
I've been to a dozen protestant funerals. They always ask everyone to pray for the soul of the departed. Yet not one of them think it does any good if they don't believe in purgatory. I always thought about that, like what are we praying for? If they're in heaven it's good, if they're in hell we can't help them. These prayers are for us to feel better" now I realize as a Catholic that all Christians have always prayed for the dead. Protestants just don't understand why. The orthodox seem to even go a step further making their prayers ritual yet they won't recognize the process of purgatory. I feel bad for them, I was in the same boat.... just confused.
I have to say, I've been to several protestant funerals. (I was raised mostly Baptist.) And I've never heard anyone at them say to pray for the deceased.
@mcdougalmusic5055 yeah I've been to baptist, methodist, non denom, Wesleyan, all of them have a part where the pastor encourages everyone to bow their head. Then some form of the words, may -the deceased find comfort in your presence, or find their way to you, or that you would have mercy on their soul. Some variation of that. Can you tell me what they pray for at all the funerals you've been to if not the deceased? I've heard pastors go on side tangents about the importance of evangelization. Seriously what is the main thing they pray for at the funerals you've been to? I've never been to a catholic funeral before by the way, confirmed this year. Seriously though, every funeral I've been to has included a prayer for the soul of the departed.
@@timboslice980 Catholic funerals are basically that, ask God for a quick entry to Heaven, "God, have mercy on him" The reason it's similar is because Protestant funerals are based on Catholic ones. What we do that's distinct from Protestants is we celebrate a mass. It's a special type of mass but I don't know the English name. Mass of the defunct? The sacrifice of the mass is dedicated to them and, notably, before it starts people can go write down the names of other dead loved ones. Fun fact: Requiem by Mozart was meant for these types of masses. It was Mozart's last work and his Mass of the defunct(?) was celebrated with this masterpiece of a work.
About the third point of objection, someone could argue that suffering is not the same thing as sin. Jesus suffered but he haven't sinned. The claim is that we don't need purification for our sins after Christ's sacrifice on the cross, not that we won't have any suffering after. I do think you need to make some additional arguments there or am I missing something?
It’s a really nice story that you put together here I love specifically how you read your own meaning into each verse. It’s very clever and I’m sure it will continue to help you lead a lot of souls astray but the fact of the matter is Mike is correct there is no scripture that substantiates purgatory at all !! Why, in the world would a Christian use Jewish teachings to try to substantiate a non-biblical heretical belief that shows the depth of your demonic teachings! The consistent use of early church fathers and teachings outside scripture is the only way for the Catholic Church to continually advanced this dogma! I pray that you Repent and come to Jesus before it’s too late!
Those whom Peter and Paul raised from the dead, the woman Tabitha and the man Eutychus, were they raised from eternal hell or from the eternal heavenly home that Jesus has opened? If the were in eternal damnation, how could they come back? if they were already in the eternal joy of heaven awaiting the glorious resurrection, would God make them ahead of Christ himself? or perhaps deny them the justice of the heavenly joy? ("He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things" Ephesians 4: 10)?
We don’t know when the soul leaves the body. In the Church, that is why you can baptize up to 2 hours after death. We don’t know how long she was dead before she was raised (unless I missed it.)
My priest said once that this is the reason why there are so few miraculous resuscitations nowadays - now that heaven has opened, who wants to be yanked back to earth, except for a do-over?
I am glad that Purgatory exists, because God has both Justice and Mercy. The Lord Jesus Christ ✝️ said to Sister Faustina, "My Mercy does not want this, but My Justice demands it."
Do the last generation go to purgatory? The Bibles says they don’t ,they will not all sleep (die),they are changed in an instant,the twinkling of an eye which means instantaneously. If God can do that to the living why can’t he do it to the dead without the need for a punitive purification? God Bless 🙏
@@po18guy 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. We shall not all sleep,is Paul talking about those believers who are still alive at Jesus second coming. Not only will the dead be resurrected with transformed, glorified bodies, but those believers who have not died when He returns will be transformed, as well. The change will be instant: "in the twinkling of an eye." This is translated from the Greek phrase en rhipē opthalmou, which most literally means "flicking the eye" and was the ancient reference to "the blink of an eye." This depicts not only the rapid movement of the eyelid, but the speed at which the eye turns from one direction to another. The underlying point is something so rapid, so instantaneous, that it defies measurement. Paul says it will be accompanied by the blast of a trumpet, something that often accompanied the appearance of God in Scripture. This is the final trumpet blast, because God's people will never be separated from Him again. So I ask again,if the ,last generation can be glorified while they are still alive without the need for a punitive,painful purification by fire what can’t the dead? Thanks 🙏
Ok so Purgatory is instantaneous. The discussion now turns from whether it exists, into _how_ it looks like. Is it unpleasant? Is it quick? Is it literally instantaneous? We can certainly speculate (like you did right now) but at least we can agree it's real. A Catholic theory I like (not canon! Just a popular speculation, which we're allowed to have) is that it involves laying out all of your sins, the terrible consequences your sinful acts had on others, and during that God makes it so that your repentance turns into an actual accelerated change of your soul into a pure one. Sounds rather unpleasant, but it fits the image of God being like a loving father disciplining his children. Personally, I think talking about time on these things will take us nowhere. Heaven is being with God, and God is outside time. Even if it's instant, it may not be instant for the Saint involved. Or whatever.
@@crusaderACR how have you turned that into purgatory is instantaneous? That reads to me like those living at the time of Jesus second coming being transformed into their/our new glorified bodies instantaneously and that there is no purgatory. No we can’t agree it’s real,certainly not! There are too many arguments against purgatory for me ,God Bless 🙏
I would rather go to the purgatory described by Dante, or the medieval version of it, than live through the Last Days. The sufferings of Christians then, in mind and body, will be unthinkable to us cushy 21st century Christians. They will more than deserve to go straight to heaven.
1 Peter 3 verse 19. It was in the spirit also that he went to preach to the spirits in prison. 20 They had disobeyed as long ago as Noah's day, etc etc. Chapter 4 verse 6 The reason the gospel was preached even to the dead was that, although condemned in the flesh in the eyes of men, they might live in the spirit in the eyes of God.
Apocalypse 10:6 exludes the purgatory. Augustine of Hippo (354-430) , bishop of Hippo Regius in Numidia and one of the most important Church Fathers of the Latin Church has declared: "Be not mistaken opon the fact that there will exist only two locations: the paradise for the dears and the hell for the sinners. - The purgartory has been introduced between 1170 and 1200, so in the Middle Ages. Up to this age the purgatory has been completely unknown and it will be not only in vain but pointless too to search for biblical justifications.
Did Church Fathers other than Saint Gregory the Great teach Purgatory? You betcha. The Acts of Paul and Thekla, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, St Cyprian, St Basil, St Gregory Nyssa, St Ephraem, St Jerome, and St Augustine - all taught purgatory. Remember, the Jews pray for the dead and the early Church carried over this OT practice. Here’s Saint Augustine on purgatory: “And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they ‘shall not inherit the kingdom of God,’ unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say ‘suitable,’ I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom,” and to the latter, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'” Saint Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 9 Comments email
Hey - Just look in his video library and you will find this: Did Catholics Add 7 Books to the Bible? Or Did Protestants Remove Them? I'm not sure if he talks about inspiration there, in general. Perhaps it is more of a historical claim in this video.
Not trying to dogpile, but why do you believe anything in the Bible is inspired? One of the first things I had to admit was that my faith was imparted to me through a man, my father, and that's why I believe the Bible initially. I'm curious what's the source of your belief.
@@po18guy Yea it's a nightmare trying to convince my wife, who is unfortunately a Jehovah's Witness, that the Deutercanonical books are inspired. The Witnesses state that the church simply insists they are inspired and that they were not part of the Torah. One of their articles from their website also states this: "There is clear evidence that these apocryphal books were not recognized as part of the inspired Scriptures when the Christian congregation was established. At that time the Hebrew Scripture canon had already been fixed and did not include any apocryphal books. The first-century Jewish historian Josephus wrote: “There are not with us myriads of books, discordant and discrepant, but only two and twenty [the equivalent of the thirty-nine books of the Hebrew Scriptures according to modern division], comprising the history of all time, which are justly accredited.” Expressing an awareness regarding the existence of apocryphal books, he continues: “From the time of Artaxerxes up to our own everything has been recorded, but the records have not been accounted equally worthy of credit with those written before them, because the exact succession of prophets ceased.”-Against Apion, Book I, par. 8 (according to the translation in The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 1, p. 163). Noteworthy, too, is the observation of the learned Jerome, translator of the Latin Vulgate. In his Prologus Galeatus to the Vulgate, he lists the inspired books of the Hebrew Scriptures in harmony with the Hebrew canon (in which the thirty-nine books are grouped as twenty-two) and then says: “Thus there are twenty-two books . . . This prologue of the Scriptures can serve as a fortified approach to all the books which we translate from the Hebrew into Latin; so that we may know that whatever is beyond these must be put in the apocrypha.” Writing to a lady named Lœta on the education of her daughter, Jerome advised: “All apocryphal books should be avoided; but if she ever wishes to read them, not to establish the truth of doctrines, but with a reverential feeling for the truths they signify, she should be told that they are not the works of the authors by whose names they are distinguished, that they contain much that is faulty, and that it is a task requiring great prudence to find gold in the midst of clay.” The apocryphal books manifestly were no part of the inspired Scriptures and were clearly not recognized as such in the early centuries of our Common Era. Their omission from a translation of the Bible, therefore, does not make that version incomplete."
@@canibezeroun1988 I trust the authority of the Catholic church (Although I'm considering Sedevacantism) and accept the Deutercanonical books as inspired. If you see my comment above I'm just looking for a response to an article from Jehovah's Witnesses.
Love how Catholics think that "if it is poorly written and uninteresting, I have still done my best" (2 Maccabees 15:38) is what the Holy Spirit would inspire.
I understand believing in a purgatory/sheol before Jesus died. I also understand why Jews would pray for the dead. They never accepted Jesus as Messiah. If we believe that Christ died, descended for three days and that he led captivity out of sheol, why believe people still need that purification period? Jesus preached to the captives who died before his sacrifice, and led them out. Hence Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That middle existence isn’t necessary. I’ve never heard a Catholic apologist address that argument. Could you please talk on this? Thank you and God bless.
A digression to coincide with #Allhollowstide, nice touch! (I know I am watching this much later just to catch up.) Sincerely in Xto Mike B. B. From Philly, P.A. U.S.A.
The western Church’s description of purgatory has traditionally been quite unhelpful, turning it into “punishment due to sin,” and granting indulgences in terms of time off (100 days remission,” etc.). Totally legalistic, which seems to be how we often roll in the Latin rite. Pope Benedict had a much better way to see it, in my opinion.
Did the church ever actually teach a specific amount of time off? I'm unaware of anything teaching specific amounts of time, I am aware of teaching that indulgences may shorten your time in Purgatory but I've only heard time from private Revelation and people's opinions
I am in the same boat with you. I hate every sin I have committed. They all make me cringe and wince. All the great saints were of the same mind. Purgatory will make us cringe and wince until we can no longer even entertain such thoughts. I try to guard by thoughts throughout the day.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast" Ephesians 2
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" Ephesians 1 Through His blood✝️ praise Jesus.
It seems like a prettt necessary theological consequence of other things said in the Bible, but most protestants reject this except for their own doctrines where they're happy to read between the lines or ignore fairly explicit passages when they contradict them
@po18guyI’m not sure it’s helpful,Matthew 25:30 is talking about weeping and gnashing of teeth so it’s referencing hell. There is no hell in 1 Cor 3 10-15 according to those who believe the passage is about purgatory ,those in this passage are saved and already guaranteed heaven. So I ask again what reward shall the builder receive? Thanks 🙏
@@lellachu1682 the Verse actually says though “IF” the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.” Heaven has already been guaranteed,those going through the fire are already saved. Their heavenly reward has already been granted. I’m interested in the second part of your post though,could you tell me more about that please? 🙏
@@scottie8365 Heaven is certainly a reward, but not the reward being referenced. “In my Father’s house there are many rooms” (John 14:2). St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas taught that this meant we would experience different degrees of rewards in Heaven depending on our love for God in this life.
@@lellachu1682 not sure about that.Jesus says these monai “dwelling places” are in His "Father's House," using the expression tē oikia, which can mean a physical house or a family. In this context, it seems to mean something more family-related. Christ's meaning here is more likely a reassurance that in the family of God is room for all of them.Jesus will use the same word for "dwelling places" in John 14:23 when He speaks about coming to make His home in those who believe.
Good timing, as my kids and I have been discussing the end of life and the Last Things in the past couple of days! We were looking around online, and my son found something that said that the Apostolic Pardon granted on someone's deathbed will remit all purgatory. I was surprised at this. I'm guessing the source left out that there must be perfect contrition? I can't imagine an unrepentant mafioso or someone like that just getting out of the temporal punishments due his sin, just because he happened to have a chance for Confession before death...
You knows really ironic? If someone does you wrong and you dont forgive them but they are truely sorry and atone for it they can go to heaven but you wont because you didnt forgive them. Thats a hard one to swallow but we are forgiven based on how we forgive. We cant ask for it if we are not willing to give it. I know i have a hard time with it. So we keep trying. We dont give up.
Well done, laid out nicely as usual. Protestants need to take in all the evidence nm historically taught in the Church & be honest...a Purgatorial Purifying fire does not have to be a long time as we know it. Heb 12:22-24, 29 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels, in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.…...29 For our God is a Consuming Fire
There are two kinds of punishment. Eternal and temporal. Jesus saved us from Eternal punishment. But we still pay for the disobediance. Its like a dad telling his son not to play ball in the yard. Dad looks away the kid plays ball and breaks a window. What does dad do. The kid realizes oh man i messed up. He tells his dad he is sorry. Dad forgives him but grounds him for two weeks and takes the price of the window out of his allowance until it is paid for. Thats purgatory. Its being grounded from heaven until we let things go and accept Him fully. Now we all need to pray for the strength to become obediant and we need to repent AND ATONE for our short comings
Yikes, there's that huge Catholic limitation on Christ's already perfect atonement. You're actually bold enough to spit in the eye of it and claim we need to atone. You do that. I think God, I cannot atone for my own sins, and thank Jesus that he did. I've heard that weak Catholic analogy of a parent needing to punish a child for messing up. Only God punishing us in purgatory again, after all the trials of this life, then more fire, brimstone and refining into the next life. That would be like dear old dad, punishing the kid who breaks, makes him pay. Then dad perniciously pretends sonny is all paid up and forgiven. Son grows up, moves out, father presents him w/ the bill for the window again, w/ huge interest. Not much of a dad. Catholic version is not much of a loving God. Some "free" gift that Christ gave us, if we're still paying in the next life for our sins, that we were told were forgiven. That's not forgiveness. Even I can forgive better than that, and I have to struggle to forgive at times, which we all do.
@@andreeattieh2963 That is such a silly thing some Catholic like to brag abvout, "the Catholic church made the bible". Do you have any idea how vulgar of a brag that sounds like? That's like a Jew saying, "We made the 10 Commandments". They did not, you Catholics did not. God ordained the commandments and the OT scriptures, as well as the NT scripture.
Love how Catholics think that "if it is poorly written and uninteresting, I have still done my best" (2 Maccabees 15:38) is what the Holy Spirit would inspire.
@@MasterKeyMagic "Paul, according to *the wisdom* given him, wrote to you, as also in all letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, *as also the rest of the Scriptures,* to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."
@@YajunYuanSDA dont deflect, you know exactly which passage i was asking about: 2 Peter 3:16 There are parts of his letters that are hard to understand, and some people give a wrong meaning to them. These people are ignorant and weak in faith. They also give wrong meanings to the other Scriptures. But they are destroying themselves by doing that.
![“อ.เบียร์ คนตื่นธรรม” มาตามคำเรียกร้อง แหกศาสตร์ฮวงจุ้ย เตือนสติอย่างมงาย | แฉ 7 พ.ย. 67 [1/3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5fc4S3xBNfc/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh Joe, this is such good stuff. Before becoming Catholic, I didn't have a strong concept of redemptive suffering. I didn't understand that Jesus calls me not only to glory, but to suffering. And that it's precisely through willingly taking up our suffering for the sake of Christ that leads to eternal life. This is why the apostles and martyrs went to their sufferings and deaths with joy, for the glory they knew would be theirs.
NOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!! ................. HERESYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!! ........................... ONLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY BY BEING WASHEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD BY THE BLOODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD OF JESUS CHRIST ARE WE NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT GOING TO BURNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN IN HELL !!! .................... POPEY FRANKIE IS 99.99% HELLBOUNDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD !!!
Joe, but the real question is, “Why on earth, at the age of 12, were you watching a televangelist instead of playing with the PlayStation?”
EWTN was coming in fuzzy that day. 🤣
This is a strong argument. 😂
Maybe because you know instinctively that what Joe is saying is more important for our salvation than videogames.
@@cleberferreiradejoao1306 your statement doesn't really make any sense in relation to the original comment
You got me!
Mike Gendron consistently gets so much wrong, and he seems to either have no interest in learning or he is knowingly lying.
Woohoo! Your next nemesis?
Just to clarify my comment: It's good to see you here, and does this mean Joe will line up behind Trent and your rival?
@@po18guy Hi, guy.
The problem is, there are too many possible alternative explanations for Mike's behaviour. An obvious possibility is conscious intentional deceit. Among alternatives is Mike's understanding that Catholics are alternatively the ignorant deceived and the elaborate deceivers, which in either case renders any claim they make worthy not only of rejection but of refusal to consider.
I remembered your "Protestant Sprinkle" explanation when Joe quoted 2 Corinthians 5:8. When I explained it to a Protestant friend, himself a former pastor and very familiar with the Bible, he had to check several translations because he was certain that he read "to be absent from the body *is* to be present with the Lord" in the Bible.
Wait, what does that verse actually say?
I'm protestant in transition to converting. Purgatory is new to me Thanks for clear and interesting teaching.
Look up James White's discussions of that topic before being deceived by non-biblical catholic teachings
@linusloth4145 Yeah, I’ll take the teachings of the Church founded by Jesus Christ over the opinion of a guy named James White, thank you.
@@linusloth4145 but rather be deceived by Protesting misrepresentation? White would have to impose another interp & literally go against the mass majority if not the entirety of the early church....the fathers have countless quotes on a Purgatorial Purifying fire. White should worry more about his conflicting Calvinism...your osas but God controls every action, every sin, every evil thing but would not let anyone fall away...the contradiction w/ scripture is massive
@@michaelbarry1664 Have fun with Francis and his LGBTQ Church
What Catholics have got *right:*
- Christians do not go straight to heaven when they die
- Nothing impure can enter heaven
What Catholics have gotten *wrong:*
- Christians need to undergo temporal punishment to make themselves worthy to go into Heaven. No pain, no gain.
- That purification happens before the resurrection of the body (Catholics separate purification from glorification)
At 48:50, when you talk about taking up our cross...man alive that was SUCH a frustration for me as a non Catholic Christian. To summarize, the message of faith alone, detachment from spiritual practices because they were seen as "works" and of course, "works" were anathema...so, the murky waters of Protestant teachings were a huge struggle, but the struggle I longed for was that of which you speak (and the Bible speaks) and that was condemned!
Joe.. this might be my favorite talk on the subject, well done presenting the truth! As always!👏🏻
I agree, Joe hit's a few points I don't normally see on this topic as well as presenting the more standard ones clearly.
This is the best exposition on Purgatory I've found! Also cool to see the Jewish sources, which I've only seen from a Jewish Friend sharing it with Me.
Fantastic episode Joe! I know the atheist ones are important but there are so many Christians in the world and I think if we all started studying the faith more and actually living it out it would make a huge difference. Most Christians I know (Bible belt Baptists) claim the title Christian but you would have no idea of it looking at their lifestyles (myself included until converting to Catholicism last year). I think the once saved always saved and "it doesn't matter if you sin Jesus has already forgiven you", leads so many Christians astray and is used as a license to sin. If all Christians started acting like Christians I believe that would change the world. Off to listen to the one on beauty now! Keep up the great work Joe! ❤
Joe is just tremendous, in every way. God bless him.
All are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith."
Romans 3
" Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4
Purgatory after death is not real.
@@GodSoLoved.Yeshua do you want to get into a quote battle? Or, do you want to actually watch the video and engage his arguments? Because all you’ve done here is find the first comment and write the same old warmed over arguments with a proof text.
God bless you on your spiritual journey.
As a new Catholic these videos are invaluable, thank you 🙏🏻
"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 10
@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn
You are loved. ❤️✝️
As an old Catholic I can tell you the comments section is going to be a war zone...
Honestly, your work is the most clear, concise, and fruitful in the way of Catholic apologetics
What Catholics have got *right:*
- Christians do not go straight to heaven when they die
- Nothing impure can enter heaven
What Catholics have gotten *wrong:*
- Christians need to undergo temporal punishment to make themselves worthy to go into Heaven. No pain, no gain.
- That purification happens before the resurrection of the body (Catholics separate purification from glorification, see 1 Corinthians 15:52)
@@YajunYuanSDA does the SDA stand for Seventh Day Adventist?
@@YajunYuanSDAWhat 7thDayAdventists get wrong…..followers of Ellen G. White, a false prophet.
@@zackrome6983 Yes
@@zackrome6983 I just uploaded a video showing that Joseph Heschmeyer copied the same explanation as Greg Sereda (Bible Flock Box)
Very enlightening. What a blessing!
1 Corinthians 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
Why is it a blessing to have more intense suffering than we ever had on earth, because we have to suffer more in purgatory? There's really nothing to look forward to, just worse than we even had on earth. I see no blessing in that.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Each case will be judged on its own merit but what is certain is that nothing unclean will enter heaven. James says: Cleanse your hands you sinners and purify your hearts you double-minded.
@@davidfabien7220 The only way to cleanse us from all unrighteousness is through Jesus Christ and his atonement. It's just a matter of receiving it.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Jeanne, have you forgotten that encouraging passage in which He addresses you as son? God disciplines all those He receives as sons. If you are not disciplined, then you are not a son but a bastard. The present suffering is nothing compared to the glory to be revealed in us.
@@gregorybarrett4998 Yes, this present suffering, is present suffering, here on earth. Not in the next life. Otherwise, how could it even be said that there is no comparing our present suffering w/ the glory that is to come? See one is present, temporal and in this life and the glory is in the next life. Nowhere are we told that in the next life is yet more suffering.
I gained a better under of Purgatory by reading Luke 12:37-40 relating to when the master returns finding his servants in varying forms of readiness. The first servant, being faithful earns Heaven, the second servant is unfaithful & goes to Hell, whereas the other two servants are punished for their sins ie purgatory
That has no mention of purgatory, that's your interjection.
"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left."
"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world"
They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25
Where and what did Luther say about anathema regarding Purgatory?
I couldn't find it.
Awesome presentation!
I was talking with a friend who thinks Catholics aren’t Christians (neither of us are currently Catholic) She claimed that purgatory was used by Catholics to get away with continually sinning, but she also claimed that Catholics rely completely on good works (amongst many other bogus claims which usually were left without evidence) at the time I didn’t agree with purgatory really, but after hearing more about what Catholics actually believe it becomes very reasonable
They aren’t. It’s two different Christ and Mary.
Faith alone and not going to confession allows you to continually sin without repercussion. According to many Protestants all you gotta do is believe in the existence of God and you’re good regardless of how many sins you commit. It’s a nice idea but is it biblical? No not really
@@emoore1439 That’s what I was thinking, but I guess many people would say that people who continually sin were ‘never saved in the first place’ which doesn’t make much sense to assume. I wasn’t particularly guided on soteriology growing up and I naturally came to believe that salvation could be lost because of unrepentance and living in sin (I mean, it’s literally in the Bible)
Logically speaking, one certainly can pray for the dead if one does not believe in Purgatory. Think of it like this:
1) God is outside of time
2) God can apply the fruits of my prayers to the deceased before his death
3) Therefore we should pray for the soul of the deceased
Also, Maccabees being referenced in the New Testament does not necessarily imply that it is canon. The letter of Jude references the book of Enoch, even referencing a prophecy from the book (this is off-topic but this fact means we can't use the fact that Wisdom contains a true prophecy as proof it is Scripture).
Disclaimer: This is one of the best videos on the subject I have ever seen. I am Catholic and believe in Purgatory and that the deuterocanon is Scripture.
If prayer for the soul of the deceased cannot change whether they are saved, why are you praying for them? What objective benefit can it do for them?
@@YajunYuanSDA It might make a difference in assuring he was in a state of grace at his death.
It is one element of it, the point isn’t just that something is mentioned it’s the fact that it’s mentioned with all other scriptural references
@@l21n18 The entire crux of the argument on Wisdom was that it had a true prophecy in it, and this was proof that it was Scripture. But this argument simply does not follow.
Wisdom is Scripture simply and clearly because the Church judged it Scripture. No other reason needed.
Plato's republic has a prophesy of Christ and we don't consider that scripture, so, yeah, 100%
I'm not saying the entire argument is bad, but using the Talmud is anything but a strong argument. Literally the Traditions of men Jesus spoke against. The Talmud also claims Adam's first eife was Lillith. The book is heavily inspired by Babylonian paganism.
Rabbinic Judaism rejects the apocryphal/deuterocanonical books.
I'm Protestant, and I agree there are fairly good arguments for some form of Purgatory, however that might look. I don't view any of the Orthodox churches as heretical. I see you all as brothers and sisters in Christ, and love you all. But PLEASE leave the Talmud alone. 😅
God bless you all.
❤🙏
Interesting argument. That a denial of purgatory is a demonic lie because it gives us an empty tomb without a cross. I’m going to ponder this more. Nice video.
It also prohibits non catholics to pray for their deceased loved ones.
@@seanfernandolopez9139 You can pray all you want for your dead loved ones but the choice of repentance and life or unrepentance and death is in the hands of the living . You make the choice for yourself not for someone else. Purgatory is well fabricated lie and those who do not read the scriptures for themselves will be easily taken in by this lie. There is no after death cleanup station as Christ has made the believer CLEAN.
The importance of the shedding of the blood of Christ is underlined in several texts. We have been justified by His blood (Rom 5:9), and we have redemption through His blood (Eph 1:7). Peter reminds that we have been redeemed with the precious blood of Christ (1Peter 1:18-19). In 1 John and in the book of Revelation we read that we have been cleansed and washed from our sins by the blood of Christ (1John 1:7 and Rev 1:5). We have seen in Hebrews 9:14 that this same blood purges our consciences from dead works to serve the living God.
Do you really think Jesus missed a sin or stain somewhere?
@@seanfernandolopez9139 I believe the Orthodox do pray for their dead.
@@seanfernandolopez9139 All Christian churches do that, Jews do that.
Only protestants dont pray for their dead.
Thank you! I’m going to share this with a man in my Catholic Bible study class who converted from Protestantism and was asking some questions about Purgatory.
Tell him the truth, it's foolishness and tell him to convert back to being a Christian, he has gone astray, I can't imagine why he would do such a thing, I pray for both of you to find the Truth, and to not be deceived as you are now, turn to only Jesus, not saints and Mary magdeleann, and idols. Love always
@@dennis36511st and foremost, we worship no idols. We worship God and God alone in Himself, not through idols. We also do not worship saints or Mary or anyone else, only God through Jesus. If you adhere to the common Protestant ideas, I'm a Christian just the same as you, and to say otherwise is contrary to your beliefs of faith on Christ. Please educate yourself on the true teachings of the Church. God bless you
You pray to the saints and Mary , but praying belongs only to God, it's part worshiping Him, when you pray to someone else than Him, you're robbing Him of what belongs to him, that's Satanic.
@@dennis3651 I've never prayed to anyone but God. Worship belongs to Him alone. Stop with the protestant stereotypes please, it's called defamation and that is bearing false witness. We ask for saintly intercession as God is God of the living, not the dead, so thus those who have passed in Christ are more fully alive then we are, and they are praying for us. We do not pray to them, we simply ask them to pray for us
@@ForGondor-cv4jfwhen I went to mass with my dad they had a store inside the church (that's a separate conversation but I seem to recall Jesus not approving of selling inside the Father's house) and the store was full of statues of different people and Jesus and angels. I was told you can kneel before them and pray cause it helps you pray to Jesus. I remember that making me really uncomfortable as a child because obviously that's not Jesus. That's a piece of wood/ceramic or whatever material they used to make it. Why would I pray to an image of God when I can just pray to God himself?
I love the bit about how just because Maccabees isn't in Protestant Bibles, doesn't mean the events in it didn't happen. They clearly did happen. The overwhelming majority of non-fiction is not in the Bible; but that doesn't make it untrue.
It’s not there, cuz they took it out 1500 years after Jesus and apostles!
& whether its accepted as part of the biblical canon or not, its still an historical document ....but they did remove it even from their own bibles
But didn’t they die under a mortal sin,idolatry,so they wouldn’t go to purgatory anyway?
@scottie8365 if you die with mortal sin, you will most likely go to hell. Of course, God is the final judge.
@@ToddJambonmost likely? I thought RC teachings were that anyone who dies under an unconfessed mortal sin goes to hell? Have you a link to any definitive sources please? Thanks 🙏
Since there was no punctuation in Scripture, Jesus words could have been as such: "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise." The punctuation changes the time period.
Yes Joseph Heschmeyer copied Bible Flock Box explanation of Luke 23:43
But that is a 7th Day Adventist argument for soul sleep, and it makes no grammatical sense l, when else could Jesus say this except today? Is he going to say “truly I say to you a week from next Tuesday?”
@@Michael-bk5nz Grammatically it makes sense (and I've heard better scholars than myself say that it is just as gramatically acceptable either way in the Greek as well). I think you're saying not that the grammar (sentence structure) would make no sense, but that the meaning would be an unnatural thing to say - that there is no need to tell someone that it is 'today' that you are telling them what you are currently saying. But languages, including English, contain such 'meaningless' phrases to add emphasis as well, like "I'll tell you right now, that is funny," or "Look, I'm going to stop you from what you're saying right there."
The phrase doesn't prove soul sleep but linguistically it can go either way. Jimmy Akin mentions it on Day 205 of the Daily Defense podcast on The Good Thief and Purgatory.
@@Michael-bk5nz Yes you rightly see that by Catholics delaying the entrance of Christians into heaven that it can lead to delaying the entrance until the final judgment (which some Church Fathers believed as admitted by Trent Horn)
@@John_Fisher "Jimmy Akin mentions it on Day 205 of the Daily Defense podcast on The Good Thief and Purgatory"
How do I find this on youtube?
You really make me think about what I believe. Thank you. May the Lord use you.
Powerful & fantastic explanation of Purgatory clearly explained, using many Biblical quotes! Thank you Joe and God Bless you Sir.
Purgatory cheapens the cross. If sin is not fully paid for on the cross by Christ, then purgatory makes sense, because the remittance of sin needs to be dealt with due to the insufficiency of the power of God. But if God is sovereign, and all powerful then the death of his son, his angel, should be enough for the covering of the sin of all mankind. The onces for all sacrifice for all.
The very nature of the sacrifice of Christ is to justify the wicked man. The ungodly man. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
If sin is not counted against you through salvation, then what is there to purify? There’s either a finished work IN Christ or there isn’t. Additionally, the finished work does not apply to the flesh it applies to the spirit. And if sin, according to Romans resides only in the flesh, then how does sin come with you to be purified in the spirit?
@@HillbillyBlack It doesn't cheapen the cross.
@@StringofPearls55 if you understand the cross, then it cheapens the cross.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 ESV
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- [13] each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
If purgatory is purification, then why does the believer hay/stubble suffer loss? What reward is given in purgatory pertaining to those whose works are burned up? One person gets reward, the other does not. What is the benefit of purgatory for the one who gets no reward?
If the reward is heaven, then this can’t be purgatory, because the reward of purgatory’s purification is heaven, and the one who’s works are consumed receiving no reward. Works of hay and stubble receive bo reward, Therefore, under purgatories reward does not apply and this passage couldn’t possibly refer to purgatory.
Both have their works tested by fire. Silver and gold RECEIVE a reward, hay and stubble does not. Yet both saved. One is as through fire indicating suffering total loss yet still saved.
@@StringofPearls55 How many sins did Jesus die for ? How many sins are we as believers guilty of ? Who atones for our sins ?
@@brucewmclaughlin9072 What is purgatory?
I am not Catholic, but I do believe that an afterlife purging must occur, and this experience varies from individual to individual. It is a baptism by fire, where a person is immersed and then comes back cleansed. I have been through multiple debates with my Protestant friends on this topic, who take the thief on the cross stance. Yet, I always return with the argument that if Jesus meant today in a literal sense, then paradise is a part of Hades, since that specific day Jesus descended into the earth and did not return until the third day.
Why would a purging in the afterlife happen, when it's not mentioned anyway in the Bible.
It does say we are saved and made righteous through faith in Jesus. In the book of Romans it's very specific.
"we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation"
we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. Romans 5
@GodSoLoved.Yeshua I would never take away from the promises of God. Being justified is a legal position before the courtroom of God. Before the Great White Throne, a justified believer is automatically declared not guilty. So, from the eternal perspective, all believers will enter the new heavens and new earth. Yet, scripture is clear that believers must be prepared for that new reality.
Hebrews 12 explains that a child of God must be chastised in order to partake in God's holiness. This is a painful experience, but necessary. In the modern church, there is a catering to people, convincing them that there are no afterlife consequences for believers. Yet, scripture is clear. In Matthew 25, the five foolish virgins were shut out of the wedding feast, revealing that attending such a feast is conditional. In the same chapter, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness for burying his talent, revealing afterlife consequences.
Not only is the wedding feast conditional, but reigning with Christ is conditional as well (according to 2 Timothy). In Matthew 18, Jesus warned that those believers who do not forgive will be cast into prison until they pay what is owed. This is an afterlife prison sentence coupled with a release date. Many believers are not prepared to enter Paradise nor reign with Christ. Being a Christian is not an easy experience, for we must go through the fire (right now) in order to be prepared for what's to come. Either way, God will save to the uttermost those who come to Him. He will do whatever it takes to conform His people to the image of His Son.
Joe, this was a balanced take and honestly you were a lot more charitable than I thought you'd be. I never really watched your videos and I just kind of assumed with a name like "shameless popery" you'd be dunking on Protestants the whole time.
A couple points:
1) The concept of purgatory---whether a place in space-time, a spiritual realm, or some sort of holy process that occurs after death---is Biblically reasonable and no thoughtful or honest protestant should deny this. Like you said, it isnt committing to anything beyond the idea that nothing unclean can enter heaven, and that most of us leave earth with some sin.
2) Most protestants find abhorrent idea of purgatory as a "mini-hell", and for centuries it was taught this way. The Catholic Church no longer espouses this idea in the literal sense, but it's hard to jettison all of that baggage.
3) the Good Thief argument is---IMO---the strongest argument against purgatory if there is one, because Christ says TODAY. Trying to bring some semantics into what "today" might have meant is ignoring the plain sense of the text and that Christ---as a man dying---was also speaking to another man dying on the cross. The plain sense of the text is that Jesus was saying to this man that because of his faith, he would be with the Lord in Paradise today. Now, because Jesus is God and can act outside of space-time, he could have very well done his business preaching to the souls in prison that very "day", as it were.
4) Many protestants wrongly conflate the finished and complete work of Christ with the abolition of any sort of temporal consequence for sin. They may admit to some civic or moral consequence on earth, but not in the afterlife. the truth is, none of us really know. Not all who are sinners get their just recompense on earth. And the New testament is clear on there being consequence for blatantly ignoring God's law.
5), lastly, I think the best resolution for this is for protestants to admit that some form of "purgation" or purification needs to occur in some way to satisfy God's justice, even for those who believe on the Son and are in friendship with God. Catholics, on the other hand, need to admit that none of us really know what that will look like, despite private revelations to mystics or traditional depictions of purgatory. It could be an instantaneous thing, it could be a process, it could a "place" in the spiritual realm. And maybe it's different for different people. The Bible simply is not clear on this, so we should avoid speculating and instead focus on the finished work of Jesus and obeying God's righteous laws.
2) there is a difference between theological speculation by theologians and magisterial teaching by the church, it’s not accurate to say “the church” taught that for centuries.
3) listen to what he said there’s not really and issue with the good thief
I'm sorry brother. That was as bleak as any Catholic presentation. Sounds like you're very close to becoming Catholic yourself. That aside, just kill me now and send me to hell, because if any of that was true, Christ never really offered much. I'm still a sinner left to pay for my own sins, grace is very limited and means next to nothing. It kinda sorta covers something, but not really, and by those beliefs, I have not much to look forward to in the next life. Just total insecurity, can't rely on any promises, because they are all waffly anyways. There is no blessed assurance that suffering is finally over in this life. Nope, probably, more than likely still suffering in the next life anyway. Holy smokes, I'd rather be anniliated, or never be born at all.
Also, that the good thief was allowed instant glory does not mean that everyone else experiences the same. He was crucified and killed right next to the Lord. It is likely the holy spirit could have infused him with perfect contrition right then. Most of us don't go through something even close to this when we are dying.
Additionally, the church has never taught that purgatory has to last an hour, a day, a week, etc. He could have undergone purgation and entered heaven on that day.
@@franciscomelgoza2799 That is purely conjecture, just like everything about purgatory. Many people suffer horribly before dying. Many of them for years, so that doesn't even make sense. Some kids are born suffering and that's all they do into adulthood, and it's through no fault of their own. Which the thief on the cross admitted to his crimes. We are all infused w/ perfect contrition, when we confess, as in our sins our absolutely and completely absolved. No need for purgatory, no need for punishment. Sometimes are sins are such that they still reap bad consequences, but that is different from further punishment.
@@franciscomelgoza2799 Yes, by uniting his suffering with Christ, St. Dismas was likely purified on the cross. May we all offer our suffering, prayers, and sacrifices for the reparation of sins so that we, too, can enter Heaven quickly.
I always attend the Traditional Latin Mass instead Pope Paul VI's rite of Mass, the vernacular one. During funeral Masses I've attended that use that rite, the priests assumed that the departed souls went to heaven. Protestants assumed the same thing a Protestant wakes. But if they went to purgatory, they need our prayers. But if we think they're in heaven, we won't pray for them. We unknowingly neglect them while they suffer,
Pretty much without fail, I start watching one of these videos and start writing a comment, only to find that you directly address the point I was going to make before I finish writing.
If your channel has trouble growing, consider making slightly worse arguments so as to increase your listener engagement.
Needs a killer hard rock intro and a puppet sidekick
Hey Joe I love your content brother!
One of my favorite biblical presentations of purgatory is Luke 12:35-48
4 possible outcomes-
Heaven (vs.43-44)
Hell (vs.45-46)
Severe punishment (vs.47)
Light punishment (vs.48)
Clearly, individual knowledge of the masters will is a determining factor in the outcome of each person, which, along with showing us potential temporary punishment on judgement day, shows us degrees of sin (mortal or venial) which factors into our judgement.
Please keep up the amazing work you do.
Peace.
"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved." Ephesians 2
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast" Ephesians 2
There is no purgatory, it contradicts the finished work of Jesus Christ.
This is one of your best videos! Thank you for making this so clear, ill be sending this out next time someone says "wheres that in the bible"
It's not in the bible. Everything he referred to was a half quote, taken out of context, or was a wild extrapolation.
@saintejeannedarc9460 you must have not watched the video. Or like an athiest who "reads" the bible but their eyes are purposefully closed. Joe talked quite a bit in detail and dare I say he still left things out that would further prove purgatory
@@TitusKingdom I watched the video. I've seen plenty of them on purgatory. It's a fairy tale place, a Grimm's dystopian fairy tale, thankfully, and it's not biblically supported. It crept into the Catholic church over the centuries, but Jesus, nor his apostles ever taught it or supported it.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Neither is faith or scripture alone. And neither is the trinity but its still there
@@TitusKingdom Joseph Heschmeyer copied Bible Flock Box explanation of Luke 23:43
Hi Joe, thanks for this exposition. According to Dr Brant Pitre of Catholic Productions, another telling argument for Purgatory comes from Jesus Himself, in Luke 12: 40 - 48, when He relates the parable of preparing for His second coming: “You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him … Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? … It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns.”
Depending on how the steward performs that work of mercy, Jesus gives four outcomes for the Day of Judgment, not two, which clearly infer a third realm of purgation.
There is another interesting reference to Heaven, Hell and Purgatory by Jesus in the New Testament - Luke 12: 35-48. Purgatory relates to the severity of the 'blows'.
❤ yes, I think PITRE BRANT, HAS A VIDEO ON THIS. JOE DO YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO THIS
Instead of being a biblical teaching, the doctrine of purgatory is primarily based on the apocryphal book 2 Maccabees 12:42-46, which records Jews praying for their fallen dead (“Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” 2 Mac. 12:46). However, 2 Maccabees never claims to be Scripture; in fact, 1 Maccabees 9:27 denies its own inspiration (“Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.”). Moreover, Jesus (and the NT writers) never cite from these books, as inspired Scripture. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church didn’t recognize 2 Maccabees as Scripture until the 16th century, when Martin Luther spoke out strongly against purgatory (see “The Apocrypha”).
In conclusion, we should make a rather simple observation about purgatory. The early Christians went around preaching the “gospel” or “good news” about Christ’s death for our sins. However, what is “good news” about paying off your own sins in purgatory for hundreds or thousands of years? We find this to stretch our credulity.
I think you need to study actual Church history.
As indicated in the video, the references to Purgatory are not limited to the Maccabees book, which are Deuterocanonical - *not apocryphal* . The books were included in the OT canon of the Septuagint, which is the OT canon of Scripture used by the Early Christians. The NT canon would not be discerned, compiled, & completed so that the Early Christians would finally have a completed Christian Bible for almost 400 years after Pentecost. Thank the Catholic Church for this because it gave us the completed Christian Bible. This is actual history that can credibly verified.
If you like the KJV of the Bible, which originated about 1611, which version do you use - the original one that contains the Deuterocanonical books that you call apocryphal - or the more modern versions that had the Deuterocanonical books removed (& on that note, by what authority were they removed when they’d been part of the body of the Christian Bible from its beginnings?)
Seeing that there was no completed Christian Bible until almost 400 AD, what then did the Early Christians have in its absence? Thoughts? 🤔
Purgatory is only for the saved. It is a final purification before entering into heaven because nothing impure can enter heaven, & while Scripture informs that our sins are forgiven, it doesn’t state that we are freed from its temporal effects.
Our God is a consuming fire - the consuming fire of Love that loves us too much to leave dross in us.
Consider the words of the prophet in the OT:
From Isaiah 6 KJV:
6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 *Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone* ; *because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips* : *for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts* .
6 *Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar* :
7 *And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged* .
Thoughts? 🤔
@@kainosktisis777
The apocrypha was not included in the Sanhedrin Cannon. They were included by Gentile men in the Septuagint. The Sanhedrin used the Tanakh. As did the first century Jews of the first century church. The Septuagint didn’t form until the later half of the first century. Decades after the church at started. And the Roman Catholic Church never considered them canon until Trent. They read from them and disagreed on them, as evident by Jerome and augustines contrary writings, but they were never formally declared until Luther blatantly rejected them, and Trent canonized them in response to Luther.
I read from the Masoretic text of the original Greek, which in english is the revised standard version that the Catholic Bible uses. Specifically a favor the ESV, because the English is a little smoother but they are 99% the same.
There was a complete Bible before the church age even began. It was called the Tanakh and Christ in his disciples quoted from the Tanakh over 200 times. “It is written”. The New Testament is simply the fulfilling text of the Tanakh. The life of Christ in the gospel can survive solely on verbal declaration and the Tanakh. The Gospel Never needed the New Testament but praise God we’ve got it.
The New Testament, the gospel writings, plus, the letters were in circulation long before council decree.
- Irenaeus (AD 180): We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. (Against Heresies, 3:1.1)
Friend, you’re talking to a man who knows his church, church history and the Bible. I will meet you on any Battle Ground, including yours.
BRING IT!!!
Great episode! So many of these issues have to do with the dichotomy between imputed and infused grace. Purgatory makes little sense if grace is exclusively imputed. Because then grace truly does “cover” everything. If grace is infused then it makes sense that after death the imperfect soul has need of being completely conformed to Christ.
“Is Purgatory Biblical?” is truly one of your best videos ever. Especially the Old Testament typology. Jesus said, Matthew 5:17-20 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them...”Mat5:17-20
First, thank you for this great video! Second, let me say I'm definitely open to the idea of purgatory but still searching for truth on it, which is why I'm here, hah! I'm still in the process of watching and will update this comment if my thoughts change, but here's how I'm perceiving the information, ESPECIALLY, as it relates to 1 cor: Jesus is the foundation. The different building materials are the different denominations/beliefs. Because those beliefs are ADDING TO what Jesus has established, as Jesus stated - you will then be judged by that which you have judged others. In other words, Catholics can come along and add whatever rules they want, but when the developers and believers die, they will be judged by those measures, and if found to be in good faith, will be purified and elevated to heaven. If you are a Christian who believes whole heartedly you only need to believe in Jesus as the savior (without any additional rules), you will be judged/purified based on that measure.
Kind of like - you've been mislead, but have acted in good faith thinking you were following the word of God. But because Jesus made it clear he was the only way and accepting him was all that was needed, but you added all these things in top of that, he will now judge and purify you based on what you believed/built.
Again, I could be way out in left field, but that's where I'm at with this. Jesus attended a feast, but that doesn't mean he supported it, just as he ate with sinners but didn't condone it; it was the pharisees who claimed that because he ate with sinners he was in support.... kinda seems like the same argument. Also, the passages mentioned show that people were doing things in HOPES that it MIGHT persuade God. There's no confirmation from God that these behaviors yielded the intended outcome. People all throughout the Bible hope and pray for many Things, just because they did it doesn't mean God provided it.
This would explain why different people throughout the Bible make it to heaven via different paths. Some go straight there while others don't 🤷♂️
I think the best pro-purgatory biblical argument is Luke 12:35-48. You have 4 servants waiting for their master to return. The first is the faithful and wise servant who will be put over the household. The second beats the other servants and gets drunk (i.e, behaves badly) and is cut in pieces and placed with the unfaithful. The third knows the Master's will but doesn't act on it and isn't ready. He receives a severe beating. The fourth mistakenly does what deserves a beating. He receives a light beating. These are all servants (i.e, not unbelievers). The master has shown up (it's the Day of the Lord) and is judging them. One is blessed and placed over the master's possessions (heaven/new heaven and earth) one ends up with the unfaithful (in hell) and two receive lesser punishments but notably aren't cut in pieces or placed with the unfaithful.
I don’t believe that has anything whatsoever to do with purgatory. “From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked” A better argument than this can be paraphrased as “with great power comes great responsibility “ This parable is more the idea of being held responsible for what we have or what we know and what we do with it. God Bless 🙏
@@scottie8365 There are none so blind as who refuse to see.
@@StanleyPinchak it’s very clear from that parable what it means,and it certainly isn’t purgatory 🙏
This is a good parable, dr brant pitre has a good video on it
@@scottie8365 there is absolutely no reason to believe Jesus isn't describing what happens after death aka when the master arrives when elsewhere he uses the same expression to describe the same thing. It just doesn't fit into your theology so you have to find anyway you can to twist it
BRILLIANT video title!
It seems the good thief on the cross made an act of perfect contrition just before his death
He also made a public profession of faith while suffering horribly on a cross (penance).
The Good Thief died under the Old Covenant and wasn't welcomed into heaven upon death because the paradise to which Christ refered was not heaven but Abraham's Bossom or the Limbo of the Fathers. Christ didn’t ascend to heaven after His soul departed from His body on the cross, but went down to Hades to liberate all the righteous who lived during the Old Testament period and were waiting for heaven to be opened to them so they ckuld.make the transition. No one went to heaven until after the resurrection. This is basic Christianity 101, so where did you get the idea fom that Dismus (the good thief) went to heaven.immediately upon his death? Because you didn't get it from the Bible or the Church.
The good thief went to paradise just as Jesus went to paradise. Jesus did not go to heaven before his resurrection. Thus paradise and heaven are not the same place.
Purgatory addresses as to how a saved person must be purified before entering heaven
@@ultimouomo11 Purgatory cheapens the cross. If sin is not fully paid for on the cross by Christ, then purgatory makes sense, because the remittance of sin needs to be dealt with due to the insufficiency of the power of God. But if God is sovereign, and all powerful then the death of his son, his angel, should be enough for the covering of the sin of all mankind. The onces for all sacrifice for all.
The very nature of the sacrifice of Christ is to justify the wicked man. The ungodly man. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
If sin is not counted against you through salvation, then what is there to purify? There’s either a finished work IN Christ or there isn’t. Additionally, the finished work does not apply to the flesh it applies to the spirit. And if sin, according to Romans resides only in the flesh, then how does sin come with you to be purified in the spirit?
I was thinking that too. Some kind of Baptism by desire. Jesus refered to his crucifixion as a baptism.
Also, just because Christ was on earth still during His crucifixion and in the tomb before resurrection doesn't mean He can't be in heaven at the same time. It's not impossible for God to stay united with the other 2 persons of the Trinity in heaven. Our minds sometimes are so limited.
What was Christ sacrifice for in relation to purgatory?
How does RC square purgatory up with 2 Cor 5:21? Do they not believe in imputation? Thanks 🙏
Please watch the entire video. It is explained. Catholics believe in imputed AND infused righteousness because we do not base our theology on only scriptures that imply imputation. If one takes scripture in its entirety, one can see that God does not just "count" us as righteous, but through Christ working in us, actually converts us to become righteous. There is the initial righteousness and then continued sanctification. Please do not base your belief on only a few selected versus of scripture out of context. For example if you read the entirety of 2nd Corinthians, and not just verse 21 from chapter 5, you will see that simple imputation is not what Paul is trying to explain to the Corinthians. Peace of Christ be with you.
@@paularnold3745 yes,I understand the doctrines of justification,sanctification and glorification. God Bless 🙏
@@paularnold3745 There is the initial righteousness, you claim, and then we can slip in and out of righteousness. I don't think the entirety of scripture supports this at all. Quite the opposite. Jesus saves, it even says he saves to the uttermost, which would mean completely, not partially, not peacemeal, and not just a little bitty bit at a time. Which is what Catholic theology amounts to. Just little bits at a time, not completely, and Christ's suffering was not at all enough, we have to add our own suffering to be properly saved and purged. Not just suffering in this world, which is considerable, and clearly biblical. What is not biblical is us suffering in the next world, to complete the work that Christ started, but seemingly couldn't finish it, so we have to finish it. I remember Jesus saying, "It is finished" on the cross. This is huge, thanks to God, he did not say, I got it started for you, now finish it yourselves.
@@saintejeannedarc9460You can clearly lose your righteousness through sin as is evidenced in Paul's epistles to the churches and Jesus admonishing the churches in the book of revelation. What do you think repentance is?
@@masinaverde901can you point me to some verses that say you lose your righteousness through sin please? Thanks 🙏
Well Joe, you know -- even if the RCC doctrines (on the current topic, Sola scriptura and others related to actual salvation) are correct, I still have some problems with the RCC and many of their other doctrines. However, so far, you are the best apologist for the Catholic viewpoint that I have come across so far.
Nevertheless, considering all of the disagreements in how we are supposed to get saved and stay that way between all of the different factions -- it makes me wonder along with one of the Apostles (can't recall which one); Who then can be saved?!
It might even be argued that the scriptures could have been a bit more specific and told us explicitly with no possibility of error or wrong interpretation. 🙏✝️👑✝️🙏
This is fantastic. Thank you so much for this
excellent show! Why not take callers?
All blessing to you, Joe. I would personally consider this a secondary doctrine that we can safely disagree on as long as we agree on the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for all sin, the efficacy of belief in the Gospel for receiving salvation, and the evidence of personal transformation in those believers.
On purgatory, I could certainly be wrong, but here is how I see it: Jesus himself is the holiness necessary for us to enter into Heaven. Indeed we must suffer with Him, but that in itself does not demand the necessity of purgatory. We suffer in this life for the name of Christ and this should be counted a certainty.
To be fair, it's hard to be fully convinced that purgatory is a fabrication, but I'm not seeing how scripture guarantees it either. All of the examples could simply apply to this life. My fear regarding purgatory is actually similar to the issue with "easy believism": that it may stand in the way of someone truly submitting and being sanctified now if they think they are "good to go" and that they can procrastinate until purgatory.
Hebrews 10:12-18 indicates it is all accomplished by Christ our Priest, and Romans 8:18 contextualizes the suffering Paul is speaking of as present sufferings, and he is doing so so as to encourage the believers in Rome to endure and not lose heart. Romans 7 also gives a glimpse into Paul's thinking on this: we have already died to the Law and are alive in Christ so that we may do good works in this life. But he acknowledges our continued struggle with the flesh, culminating in a question and answer in verse 24-25.
I feel Scripture is clear on this: Jesus has done all that is necessary. There is no condemnation for those in Him and aside from that, there is no explicit mention of purgatory anywhere. It seems to me, if it was meant to be a central doctrine there would either be an explicit mention OR there would be sufficient, unambiguous examples (as is the case with the Trinity). I see how the verses you are using could be applied to a working doctrine of purgatory, but they don't seem reliably concrete for this particular argument. 🤷♂
I'm certainly NO expert here though!
One of the best arguments against for me is 1 Cor 15:51-52. It quite clearly tells us that the last generation don’t go to purgatory. So if our almighty God can glorify the living instantaneously,in the twinkling of an eye why can’t he do it with the dead? I’m a strong believer in imputation too and from 2 Cor 5:21 I believe we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Is purgatory saying Christs righteousness isn’t enough?
The “nothing impure can enter heaven” verse isn’t an argument,I am not disputing that just saying that the purification is done in a different way. And with 1 Cor 3:10-15 couldn’t that be more linked to the judgment seat of Christ? The purgatory verses from Maccabee’s are fraught with many problems too,they were killed for idolatry and I was under the impression that those who died under an unconfessed mortal sin went straight to hell. There’s problems everywhere with the doctrine. God Bless 🙏
@@scottie8365 Great example, thanks for that! I agree with you about imputation. It is a tough doctrine for some people. The Gospel itself is so good it can seem hard to believe. "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
Purgatory is only possible because of Jesus and his gift of Mercy to us.
As to whether this is secondary and can be disagreed about I would point to the constant practice of praying for the dead and the Teaching's of the Church in her Ecumenical Councils notable Florence. But if your coming from a protestant perspective that's arguing the whole big question of what authority and guidance has God given his Church.
@@scottie8365 so you’re still arguing with a straw man and it doesn’t say anything about the last generation
You realize there is very little said about the intermediate state at all? Jesus did it All has nothing to do with the issue
The Bible doesn’t tell us much about the thief on the cross. Certainly not enough to prove or disprove a doctrine.
It’s a beautiful account of a man facing deadly punishment but unexpectedly finding his savior. It shows that even while in agony, Christ’s heart was for His sheep. And more.
It doesn’t tell us that purgatory doesn’t exist. Or baptism isn’t the ordinary means to salvation. Or other false theories people add into the story. Hard cases make bad laws, and favored short stories don’t replace the rest of the Church’s scriptures and teaching.
Let's admit, if there were no such thing as Purgatory, we'd nearly all of us be screwed. To die in grace is not as easy as some think, but to die with NO attachment to sin, having done penance for all one's sins, is something only the great saints accomplish.
I remember a story about St. Philip Neri, who led thousands of faithful on a pilgrimage in Rome. He was given knowledge from above that of all the pilgrims, only two gained the plenary indulgence offered: himself and a certain Ignatius of Loyola.
What Catholics have got *right:*
- Christians do not go straight to heaven when they die
- Nothing impure can enter heaven
What Catholics have gotten *wrong:*
- Christians need to undergo temporal punishment to make themselves worthy to go into Heaven. No pain, no gain.
- That purification happens before the resurrection of the body (Catholics separate purification from glorification, see 1 Corinthians 15:52)
The soul is not in the grave with the body. You're reading into scripture your faulty SDA theology.
@@masinaverde901 Catholics teach the soul is in purgatory aka sheol/hades. That is underground aka the grave.
Purgatory is not in heaven, the soul is not in heaven.
@@YajunYuanSDA Wrong. Purgatory is a process, a final purification, not a place. Definitely not Sheol.
Great work thank you in Christ❤
I had an immediate thought on how to visualize purgatory. We've been invited to a feast but we are at different levels of cleanliness; some of us are lightly dusty/dirty and need a quick washing up while others have oil/dirt deeply ingrained in our hands and need much longer or stronger washing to fully clean ourselves so we are presentable. Don't know if that's a helpful visualization or if it could use some more thought to draw out something that could help but that's my initial thought 2min in.
You are invited to a feast and you go because Christ has made you completely clean. Quit looking at your flesh as if it going to heaven as it is not. Your spirit born again by God is safely placed in the heavenly realm with Jesus Eph 2"6 and your flesh is to do the works that God created us for Eph 2:10 and yes our flesh is riddled with sin but for the believer all those sins have been paid for and we living in sinful bodies are not subject to the law of sin and death.
@@brucewmclaughlin9072and what about judgement day when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats?
@@susanm2291 A judgment that Jesus will preside over is referred to as the Sheep and Goat Judgment or the Judgment of the Nations (Matthew 25:31-46). Some interpreters equate this judgment with the Great White Throne Judgment, but there are differences, a one being that the judgment is based on how people treated Jesus’ “brothers,” that is, the people of Israel (Matthew 25:40).
Considering its placement after Jesus’ second coming, the Sheep and Goat Judgment will most likely determine the earthly fate of those who are alive at the time of Christ’s return (Matthew 25:1-30). During this judgment, Jesus will separate the “sheep” from the “goats.” The sheep are believers who gave evidence to their faith by helping the Jewish people during the tribulation; the goats are unbelievers who portrayed their unbelief by failing to help Jews during the tribulation (Matthew 25:33-36, 41-43).
Those who rejected Christ and took the side of the beast during the tribulation “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).
The problem is we tend to look at judgement of good and bad as one big judgement and not many different judgements.
We as believers who are not guilty of sins anymore because of our repentance and subsequent complete cleaning by the Lord's complete sacrifice for sins , will still be judged by Jesus for what we did with what He has given us and some of us will enter heaven without anything to show for our lives. 1 Cor 3:10-15 is an example of what good or what useless works were done while alive.
We must be born again, as he said. There is no in-between.
The devil owns the fence.
"Depart for me I never knew you"
@@susanm2291 Sheep are the believers and goats are not . Wheat and the tares believers nonbelievers.
1 Cor 3:10-15 judgement seat of Christ where believers are judged , salvation and sin are not in question but what you did with what Christ provided for you to work with is.
So is the 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 reference not about judgement day rather than purgatory? If the day will reveal it?
Coming from a place wanting to understand. Protestant investigating Catholicism.
I would like to point out Mike only quoted half that verse the full section he quoted is this:
1 St John 1:6-10 DRC1752
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. [7] But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanse us from all sin. [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Take a look at how many ifs there are
That's how Catholic theology is formed. They don't fully rely on the bible anyway, and are not bound to it. Catholic theology was formed on ecumenical councils and highly politicized votes, where greed, ladder climbing, nepotism, and paying your way in was all involved. There was not a full bible canon for the first few centuries, though the bible scriptures were in circulation, there were many apocryphal books that also go into forming Catholic theology that is still held to today. Because they claim they can't err, they can't and won't go back and correct what isn't well supported in scripture. That is why I have to stay w/ sola scriptura, w/ the bible being primary and any tradition being secondary, never equal, and certainly not above or cancelling scripture out when it collides w/ cherished theologies already formed and entrenched.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 the Catholic Church is bound by the Bible. the only reason that the Bible wasn't circulated was because they were all written by hand and it would take up to 3 years for the Bible to finally be fully written. So bibles were highly expensive and would cost around $100,000 in today's money. It just wasn't possible for them to circulate bibles at that time.
As for not leading the church in err these verses say:
1 Timothy 3:15 DRC1752
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
John 16:13 RSVCI
[13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
This was really informative! Thank you.
You used the CCC 1030 to define purgatory as being “after death they undergo purification.” Yet you said at 37:47 it would be fine from a Catholic perspective if the thief immediately went to heaven… then you quote Saint Augustine “ you can have your purgatory on this earth”…. So which is it, after death or during this life? Are you claiming that the suffering the thief experienced fully purged him or this a contradiction?
@po18guy that’s not what the Catholic catechism says. It only says purgatory exists for people “after death.”
CCC 1030 "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. Mt 12:31.
The process and means by which God makes his saints pure and undefiled happens both in this life and after our death.
@@jeremysmith7176 does that mean the catechism isn’t absolute?
@@ninjason57 Did you watch the same video? St Augustine said purification or purgation occurs both before and after death. Purgatory is the name given to the state or location of Souls undergoing this after death.
@@jeremysmith7176 I actually watched the video multiple times to make sure I was listening correctly. Do you not see the contradiction in your own comment? You say purgatory occurs both before and after death yet in your definition of purgatory it’s after death.
Yes . I think you're right about sin not following us. We are forgiven. Through Christ.
However the temporal side of the ledger has to be reconciled.
Romans 8:10 relates to the concept of Purgatory by signifying that even though a believer's physical body dies due to sin, their spirit remains alive through Christ and is destined for Heaven, but may still need purification from lesser sins ("the last penny") through a temporary state of suffering called Purgatory before reaching full communion with God.
You always clear things up for me. Thank you!
Good introduction. Very simple, but does beg one question. If those in Purgatory are by default elect, and therefore, saved, thus bound for heaven, is Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross insufficient to actually and completely cleanse someone to the point where someone is bound for heaven? At that point, all Jesus does is allow us to go to purgatory, and we earn heaven ourselves. I will say that I agree with Jerome, that the apocrypha are not canonical.
@CatholicDefender-bp7my it is generally bad form to answer a question with another question, however, I will respond in kind. Have you ever seen the episode of Star Treck Enterprise, where are Phlox creates a cure for a species then refuses to give it to them? What good did said cure do? All the people it was meant for were left to their fate. What good does an open door do? If the one who opens it doesn’t bring us in, we are earning our own way in. So my question is this, does Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross actually bring us into heaven, or does our own works?
Solid question.
1. We have obvious theological differences, because to us there is no "elect by default." So that shows why you have conflict on the belief of purgatory.
2. Going through or doing something for the Lord pleases Him but does not earn something from Him. According to protestants, in order to be saved you must accept and believe in Christ. Does that mean you earned heaven by believing and accepting Christ? I'll be confident to say both Catholics and non Catholics can agree that we don't.
@@seanfernandolopez9139 If I may, please allow me to address both of your points. And I apologize if they don’t come out the most clear, I’m rather under the weather.
1) I do agree, we most likely do have obvious theological differences. And I am still working on the whole “elect” concept, mostly because by default that would then therefore mean that those who aren’t would then be equally predestined, from before the time of creation, created to be thrown into hell. I think in my point on the elect in my comment was intended in a different manner. Assuming on to be elect, that would then mean a certain thing. Different placing of words can mean different things, as I’m sure we may agree to.
2) I think we may be closer than one may expect on this point. I try, and regularly fail, to not assume that is a person is of a certain theological tradition, or thought process in general, that they all thing and believe the same thing, or even are in 100% lockstep with their own creed. I am still working on the whole works/faith salvation thing. As things stand now, I fail to see how faith is not an indicative, are active, action one takes, in my mind, making it no different from a work, theoretically speaking. So in the spirit of honesty, I’m still not convinced how salvation works, from either lens.
Taking up the cross examples seems to be while on earth and not purgatory
It was explaned can be either or both. Taking up the cross means suffering or going through hardships in the name and friendship of the Lord.
I'm confident that we can agree that they're not referring to a physical wooden, lifesize cross.
While on earth we take up our cross, yes.
The apostles nor did Jesus teach about purgatory in the after life. It actually defeats the purpose of the cross✝️ "He gave His only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" its a gift so no one may boast.
Why would you work off a gift? 🎁
There seems to be a massive leap between premise 2 and the conclusion of the Akin-Fradd argument. Romans 8:10 says, "But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Isn't the fact the flesh dies and the spirit alive proof that sin doesn't continue to the afterlife?
I absolutely love you, Joe!
Luke 16:25-2625 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
That's all we need to know.
This is a misunderstanding of what purgatory is. Purgatory does not save people from hell. Everyone in purgatory is going to be saved, no one crosses from hell to heaven.
@@rafexrafexowski4754 The souls in Purgatory are already SAVED. They just need to be sanctified and purified of their Sins.
@@rafexrafexowski4754what you said doesn’t even make sense
The catholic farce sell you all purgatory and all their lies.
In regards to the Thief on the Cross I've never understood how it would be a problem for him to have immediately entered heaven. Many protestants believe that children who never made a personal act of faith can be saved. We both agree that God isn't bound to our ordinary means of salvation, that fact doesn't disprove either one of us.
Christ says in Matthew that, like Jonah, he would be in the belly of the earth for 3 days. Acts tells us Christ remained on earth for 40 days before He ascends. So there were 43 days BEFORE Christ went to Heaven. Did the good thief go ahead of the Lord to make sure the lights were on for His arrival? Or, more likely, Paradise that Christ mentions, is Abrahams Boosom. The place where the prisoners Christ preached to in 1st Peter were awaiting the Messiah😂😂
@@bibleman8010 Interesting, I'd never thought of that before.
Before Jesus?
@@Kefa...I'm not commenting on whether or not the theif on the cross immediately entered heaven I'm pointing out that the argument assumes that an exception to purgation disproves purgatory whereas protestants allow exceptions to their own understanding of salvation.
@@Kefa... prior to
In her cycle of radio plays about the life of Jesus, The Man Born To Be King, Dorothy L. Sayers presents the Good Thief (traditionally called Dismas) in a way that she says may not be consistent with the beliefs held by the church (Anglican or Catholic), but that she thinks makes for better drama.
In her Crucifixion scene, Dismas initially thinks that Jesus is a lunatic, and when he says “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom,” he’s doing it purely out of kindness, trying to humor and comfort a madman who doesn’t deserve to be executed at all. So although Dismas hasn’t reformed his life, he has enough love for others that even when dying in torments, he goes out of his way to lessen the suffering of someone he thinks is merely an innocent madman. Then, when Jesus tells him that he will be with him in Paradise, Dismas realizes that Jesus isn’t insane, and by the grace of God believes in Jesus - and receives some of the comfort he tried to give to Jesus.
It does present Dismas as worthy of salvation, but in an unusual way…
Beautiful 🙏🏽great explanation
Two questions, well 3 - First, why does the Orthodox Church, despite praying for the dead 'out of love', not believe in Purgatory, since there was only one Church for the first 1,054 years? Second, 1 Cor 3:13-17 is talking about the Day (ie: Last Judgement) so how are we purified now? Lastly, Rev 21 is talking about the new heaven (and the new earth) and is not talking about people dying now and going to 'heaven' now. Or is there no one in heaven until after the Last Judgement? (at which point 1 Cor 3:13-17 and Rev 21 would make sense). I genuinely would like an answer to these but no Catholic apologist has addressed them. Many thanks.
48:28 this is such a great rebuttal to when Protestants say “He is risen” in reference to the crucifix icon
According to the Catholics I know, purgatory is not to be understood as a place, but as a process for a moment. But a "moment" is indescribable in the eternal state. The thing I'd add for Christian clarity is that it's for testing works done for the Kingdom, not to bring about additional suffering for judgment's sake.
Saint Thérèse of Lisieux told her novices that by total trust in the love of God, a soul could go straight to heaven 😇
Douay-Rheims Bible:"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment."
No mention of any purification or purge of sin or whatever...
That purification happens here on earth. With the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 6:11 (: "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
1 Corinthians 6:11 : "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
We were washed. Said that.... I believe the bible that theres no inbetween.... just heaven or hell...
You say "...after this the judgment"
Everyday in courts all over the world there are judgments applied
All differents
@AShley-un1yi ...Hebrews is about the judgment of God, not a human court.
All protestants should watch this video. It is great.
We're watching and it's painful to see the grace of God annulled and his full forgiveness made of little affect. The atonement doesn't atone for much w/ this doctrine.
Quite the contrary, the atonement would be quite pointless if attachment to sin were allowed to enter into heaven. The atonement has saved us, but has not freed us from attachment to sin. Anyone who claims they are free of all sin is a liar.
Purgatory is rather an extension of God's mercy and grace. We enter into heaven white as snow, not as snow covered dung heaps as Luther claimed.
@@franciscomelgoza2799 The bible definitely says that we've all sinned and any who say they have not sinned are lying. What it does not say is that we have to be free from all attachment to sin to enter heaven. If you can find that, site the scriptures. Because what the bible does say in detail is that our carnal body is what keeps us attached to sin. Our spirit is willing, but our flesh is weak. It also says that to absent in the body, is to be present w/ the Lord. Like the thief on the cross, is a glaring example, who was promised to be in paradise that day. When we are released from this body of sin and death, attachment to sin will not be an issue in our glorified bodies. That's what the bible teaches. Have no idea where purgatory, or needing to be free from attachment to sin came from.
Glaring example it is not. Just because the good thief who was killed next to Jesus Christ and probably experienced perfect contrition in the presence of the logos incarnate and the savior does not mean that everyone does has the same experience.
Also, the church has never taught that purgation necessarily takes more than an hour or a day. He could have undergone purgation on that day and entered into paradise.
The Jews to this day still pray for their dead. All the apostolic churches do as well.
I would rather follow the traditions that the Lord followed as well as Ancient Christianity than a doctrine from Luther or Calvin.
@@franciscomelgoza2799 Calvin and Luther have nothing to do w/ the thief on the cross, and what Jesus personally told him, that this day he would be in paradise. And yes, you would rather follow your church traditions, rather than the words of our Lord, written in scripture. This is yet another instance of what is constantly denied by Catholics, that their traditions are not above scripture, yet in practice they clearly are.
Your church most certainly has taught that purgatory is a long and painful process. This is where indulgences come from. To earn you or your loved ones from long, painful stays in purgatory. Though indulgences are no longer sold, they are still offered for arbitrary acts. The pope, the apparent key holder of everything on heaven and earth, will give one day offers that if you walk through certain doors in a fancy pilgrim church, that you are granted a plenary indulgence. Then there's treasury of merit. He can dip into the merits of saints who have many more merits than us, and share them out to those that seek indulgences. Nothing remotely is in the bible, there aren't even scriptures for this, that I know of, but it's tradition and since your church is not bound by the bible, it can claim whatever it wants.
I believe in purgatory but isn't the conclusion, "C", in the Akin-Fradd argument leaving out the possibility that all the unclean go to hell? Wouldn't that be the natural conclusion to premise A and B? Why would one assume those who die in sin would be purified and not damned?
That's right, and Fradd actually points this out in the longer form of the argument that he gave in an early Pints with Aquinas episode (I think it's episode 4?). St. John says that "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8) So it's true that a Protestant could bite the bullet and say, "that's right, no one (or next to no one) goes to heaven," but I think few would go this far.
In any case, interpreting John in this way doesn't work well, since John ALSO distinguishes between the kind of sin that is mortal and the kind of sin that isn't (1 John 5:16). This seems to clearly say that there are sins we might die still attached to in some way (what are today called "venial" sins) that won't lead to our eternal damnation. But since venial sin is still an impurity, this also suggests the need for a purgation of some kind that's distinct from damnation.
@@shamelesspoperyI didn't get a notification that you responded to my comment but I will check that episode out. Thanks for explaining and clarifying that for me, makes a ton of sense. And thanks for the quick and lengthy reply. I appreciate you and the work you do brother
I've been to a dozen protestant funerals. They always ask everyone to pray for the soul of the departed. Yet not one of them think it does any good if they don't believe in purgatory. I always thought about that, like what are we praying for? If they're in heaven it's good, if they're in hell we can't help them. These prayers are for us to feel better" now I realize as a Catholic that all Christians have always prayed for the dead. Protestants just don't understand why. The orthodox seem to even go a step further making their prayers ritual yet they won't recognize the process of purgatory. I feel bad for them, I was in the same boat.... just confused.
Orthodox call it apocatastasis
I have to say, I've been to several protestant funerals. (I was raised mostly Baptist.) And I've never heard anyone at them say to pray for the deceased.
@mcdougalmusic5055 yeah I've been to baptist, methodist, non denom, Wesleyan, all of them have a part where the pastor encourages everyone to bow their head. Then some form of the words, may -the deceased find comfort in your presence, or find their way to you, or that you would have mercy on their soul. Some variation of that. Can you tell me what they pray for at all the funerals you've been to if not the deceased? I've heard pastors go on side tangents about the importance of evangelization. Seriously what is the main thing they pray for at the funerals you've been to? I've never been to a catholic funeral before by the way, confirmed this year. Seriously though, every funeral I've been to has included a prayer for the soul of the departed.
Anglican may pray for the dead but Reformed Christians do not
@@timboslice980 Catholic funerals are basically that, ask God for a quick entry to Heaven, "God, have mercy on him"
The reason it's similar is because Protestant funerals are based on Catholic ones.
What we do that's distinct from Protestants is we celebrate a mass. It's a special type of mass but I don't know the English name. Mass of the defunct?
The sacrifice of the mass is dedicated to them and, notably, before it starts people can go write down the names of other dead loved ones.
Fun fact: Requiem by Mozart was meant for these types of masses. It was Mozart's last work and his Mass of the defunct(?) was celebrated with this masterpiece of a work.
About the third point of objection, someone could argue that suffering is not the same thing as sin. Jesus suffered but he haven't sinned. The claim is that we don't need purification for our sins after Christ's sacrifice on the cross, not that we won't have any suffering after. I do think you need to make some additional arguments there or am I missing something?
It’s a really nice story that you put together here I love specifically how you read your own meaning into each verse. It’s very clever and I’m sure it will continue to help you lead a lot of souls astray but the fact of the matter is Mike is correct there is no scripture that substantiates purgatory at all !! Why, in the world would a Christian use Jewish teachings to try to substantiate a non-biblical heretical belief that shows the depth of your demonic teachings!
The consistent use of early church fathers and teachings outside scripture is the only way for the Catholic Church to continually advanced this dogma! I pray that you Repent and come to Jesus before it’s too late!
You are super ignorant, God help you see clear!
Those whom Peter and Paul raised from the dead, the woman Tabitha and the man Eutychus, were they raised from eternal hell or from the eternal heavenly home that Jesus has opened? If the were in eternal damnation, how could they come back? if they were already in the eternal joy of heaven awaiting the glorious resurrection, would God make them ahead of Christ himself? or perhaps deny them the justice of the heavenly joy? ("He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things" Ephesians 4: 10)?
They would have been in sheol/paradise, no one was in heaven till the resurrection.
We don’t know when the soul leaves the body. In the Church, that is why you can baptize up to 2 hours after death. We don’t know how long she was dead before she was raised (unless I missed it.)
My priest said once that this is the reason why there are so few miraculous resuscitations nowadays - now that heaven has opened, who wants to be yanked back to earth, except for a do-over?
I am glad that Purgatory exists, because God has both Justice and Mercy. The Lord Jesus Christ ✝️ said to Sister Faustina, "My Mercy does not want this, but My Justice demands it."
Guys keep on commenting without listening first intently to the podcast.
Do the last generation go to purgatory? The Bibles says they don’t ,they will not all sleep (die),they are changed in an instant,the twinkling of an eye which means instantaneously. If God can do that to the living why can’t he do it to the dead without the need for a punitive purification? God Bless 🙏
@@po18guy 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
We shall not all sleep,is Paul talking about those believers who are still alive at Jesus second coming. Not only will the dead be resurrected with transformed, glorified bodies, but those believers who have not died when He returns will be transformed, as well.
The change will be instant: "in the twinkling of an eye." This is translated from the Greek phrase en rhipē opthalmou, which most literally means "flicking the eye" and was the ancient reference to "the blink of an eye." This depicts not only the rapid movement of the eyelid, but the speed at which the eye turns from one direction to another. The underlying point is something so rapid, so instantaneous, that it defies measurement. Paul says it will be accompanied by the blast of a trumpet, something that often accompanied the appearance of God in Scripture. This is the final trumpet blast, because God's people will never be separated from Him again.
So I ask again,if the ,last generation can be glorified while they are still alive without the need for a punitive,painful purification by fire what can’t the dead? Thanks 🙏
Ok so Purgatory is instantaneous.
The discussion now turns from whether it exists, into _how_ it looks like.
Is it unpleasant? Is it quick? Is it literally instantaneous? We can certainly speculate (like you did right now) but at least we can agree it's real.
A Catholic theory I like (not canon! Just a popular speculation, which we're allowed to have) is that it involves laying out all of your sins, the terrible consequences your sinful acts had on others, and during that God makes it so that your repentance turns into an actual accelerated change of your soul into a pure one.
Sounds rather unpleasant, but it fits the image of God being like a loving father disciplining his children.
Personally, I think talking about time on these things will take us nowhere. Heaven is being with God, and God is outside time. Even if it's instant, it may not be instant for the Saint involved. Or whatever.
@@crusaderACR how have you turned that into purgatory is instantaneous? That reads to me like those living at the time of Jesus second coming being transformed into their/our new glorified bodies instantaneously and that there is no purgatory. No we can’t agree it’s real,certainly not! There are too many arguments against purgatory for me ,God Bless 🙏
I would rather go to the purgatory described by Dante, or the medieval version of it, than live through the Last Days. The sufferings of Christians then, in mind and body, will be unthinkable to us cushy 21st century Christians. They will more than deserve to go straight to heaven.
@@andrewpearson1903 I trust Gods sovereign plan,he knows the end from the beginning. God Bless 🙏
1 Peter 3 verse 19. It was in the spirit also that he went to preach to the spirits in prison. 20 They had disobeyed as long ago as Noah's day, etc etc. Chapter 4 verse 6 The reason the gospel was preached even to the dead was that, although condemned in the flesh in the eyes of men, they might live in the spirit in the eyes of God.
Thank you
Many thanks Joe.
I was just making my own notes on this to put it out. Thank you for putting this out
Apocalypse 10:6 exludes the purgatory. Augustine of Hippo (354-430) , bishop of Hippo Regius in Numidia and one of the most important Church Fathers of the Latin Church has declared: "Be not mistaken opon the fact that there will exist only two locations: the paradise for the dears and the hell for the sinners. - The purgartory has been introduced between 1170 and 1200, so in the Middle Ages. Up to this age the purgatory has been completely unknown and it will be not only in vain but pointless too to search for biblical justifications.
Did Church Fathers other than Saint Gregory the Great teach Purgatory? You betcha.
The Acts of Paul and Thekla, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, St Cyprian, St Basil, St Gregory Nyssa, St Ephraem, St Jerome, and St Augustine - all taught purgatory.
Remember, the Jews pray for the dead and the early Church carried over this OT practice.
Here’s Saint Augustine on purgatory:
“And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they ‘shall not inherit the kingdom of God,’ unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say ‘suitable,’ I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom,” and to the latter, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'”
Saint Augustine, Enchiridion, 69
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@@iggyantioch Unfortunately I am not able to compare this English translation with the Greek original text.
Ok.
Stay safe.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" Ephesians 1🥳
Can your next video be about the Deuterocanonical Books and why they are inspired?
Hey - Just look in his video library and you will find this: Did Catholics Add 7 Books to the Bible? Or Did Protestants Remove Them? I'm not sure if he talks about inspiration there, in general. Perhaps it is more of a historical claim in this video.
Not trying to dogpile, but why do you believe anything in the Bible is inspired? One of the first things I had to admit was that my faith was imparted to me through a man, my father, and that's why I believe the Bible initially. I'm curious what's the source of your belief.
@@po18guy Yea it's a nightmare trying to convince my wife, who is unfortunately a Jehovah's Witness, that the Deutercanonical books are inspired. The Witnesses state that the church simply insists they are inspired and that they were not part of the Torah. One of their articles from their website also states this:
"There is clear evidence that these apocryphal books were not recognized as part of the inspired Scriptures when the Christian congregation was established. At that time the Hebrew Scripture canon had already been fixed and did not include any apocryphal books. The first-century Jewish historian Josephus wrote: “There are not with us myriads of books, discordant and discrepant, but only two and twenty [the equivalent of the thirty-nine books of the Hebrew Scriptures according to modern division], comprising the history of all time, which are justly accredited.” Expressing an awareness regarding the existence of apocryphal books, he continues: “From the time of Artaxerxes up to our own everything has been recorded, but the records have not been accounted equally worthy of credit with those written before them, because the exact succession of prophets ceased.”-Against Apion, Book I, par. 8 (according to the translation in The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 1, p. 163).
Noteworthy, too, is the observation of the learned Jerome, translator of the Latin Vulgate. In his Prologus Galeatus to the Vulgate, he lists the inspired books of the Hebrew Scriptures in harmony with the Hebrew canon (in which the thirty-nine books are grouped as twenty-two) and then says: “Thus there are twenty-two books . . . This prologue of the Scriptures can serve as a fortified approach to all the books which we translate from the Hebrew into Latin; so that we may know that whatever is beyond these must be put in the apocrypha.” Writing to a lady named Lœta on the education of her daughter, Jerome advised: “All apocryphal books should be avoided; but if she ever wishes to read them, not to establish the truth of doctrines, but with a reverential feeling for the truths they signify, she should be told that they are not the works of the authors by whose names they are distinguished, that they contain much that is faulty, and that it is a task requiring great prudence to find gold in the midst of clay.”
The apocryphal books manifestly were no part of the inspired Scriptures and were clearly not recognized as such in the early centuries of our Common Era. Their omission from a translation of the Bible, therefore, does not make that version incomplete."
@@canibezeroun1988 I trust the authority of the Catholic church (Although I'm considering Sedevacantism) and accept the Deutercanonical books as inspired. If you see my comment above I'm just looking for a response to an article from Jehovah's Witnesses.
Love how Catholics think that "if it is poorly written and uninteresting, I have still done my best" (2 Maccabees 15:38) is what the Holy Spirit would inspire.
I understand believing in a purgatory/sheol before Jesus died. I also understand why Jews would pray for the dead. They never accepted Jesus as Messiah.
If we believe that Christ died, descended for three days and that he led captivity out of sheol, why believe people still need that purification period? Jesus preached to the captives who died before his sacrifice, and led them out. Hence Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That middle existence isn’t necessary.
I’ve never heard a Catholic apologist address that argument. Could you please talk on this? Thank you and God bless.
So good. God bless
A digression to coincide with #Allhollowstide, nice touch!
(I know I am watching this much later just to catch up.)
Sincerely in Xto
Mike B. B. From Philly, P.A. U.S.A.
The western Church’s description of purgatory has traditionally been quite unhelpful, turning it into “punishment due to sin,” and granting indulgences in terms of time off (100 days remission,” etc.). Totally legalistic, which seems to be how we often roll in the Latin rite. Pope Benedict had a much better way to see it, in my opinion.
Did the church ever actually teach a specific amount of time off? I'm unaware of anything teaching specific amounts of time, I am aware of teaching that indulgences may shorten your time in Purgatory but I've only heard time from private Revelation and people's opinions
New believers. Be careful. There is a lot of proof texting here. Don’t be deceived. Praying for you. That God may give you discernment.
Even as a non catholic investigating, listening to Mike gendron just makes me cringe and wince sadly. This was a good deep dive on the subject 👍
I am in the same boat with you. I hate every sin I have committed. They all make me cringe and wince. All the great saints were of the same mind. Purgatory will make us cringe and wince until we can no longer even entertain such thoughts. I try to guard by thoughts throughout the day.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast" Ephesians 2
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" Ephesians 1
Through His blood✝️ praise Jesus.
Excellent job. Keep up the good work!
Malachi 3:2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire, and like launderer’s soap.
It seems like a prettt necessary theological consequence of other things said in the Bible, but most protestants reject this except for their own doctrines where they're happy to read between the lines or ignore fairly explicit passages when they contradict them
What is the reward mentioned in 1 Cor 3:14? Thanks 🙏
@po18guyI’m not sure it’s helpful,Matthew 25:30 is talking about weeping and gnashing of teeth so it’s referencing hell. There is no hell in 1 Cor 3 10-15 according to those who believe the passage is about purgatory ,those in this passage are saved and already guaranteed heaven. So I ask again what reward shall the builder receive? Thanks 🙏
@@scottie8365 The reward we are promised in Heaven, or the degree to which we will enjoy the Beatific Vision.
@@lellachu1682 the Verse actually says though “IF” the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.”
Heaven has already been guaranteed,those going through the fire are already saved. Their heavenly reward has already been granted. I’m interested in the second part of your post though,could you tell me more about that please? 🙏
@@scottie8365 Heaven is certainly a reward, but not the reward being referenced. “In my Father’s house there are many rooms” (John 14:2). St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas taught that this meant we would experience different degrees of rewards in Heaven depending on our love for God in this life.
@@lellachu1682 not sure about that.Jesus says these monai “dwelling places” are in His "Father's House," using the expression tē oikia, which can mean a physical house or a family. In this context, it seems to mean something more family-related. Christ's meaning here is more likely a reassurance that in the family of God is room for all of them.Jesus will use the same word for "dwelling places" in John 14:23 when He speaks about coming to make His home in those who believe.
Good timing, as my kids and I have been discussing the end of life and the Last Things in the past couple of days! We were looking around online, and my son found something that said that the Apostolic Pardon granted on someone's deathbed will remit all purgatory. I was surprised at this. I'm guessing the source left out that there must be perfect contrition? I can't imagine an unrepentant mafioso or someone like that just getting out of the temporal punishments due his sin, just because he happened to have a chance for Confession before death...
You knows really ironic? If someone does you wrong and you dont forgive them but they are truely sorry and atone for it they can go to heaven but you wont because you didnt forgive them. Thats a hard one to swallow but we are forgiven based on how we forgive. We cant ask for it if we are not willing to give it. I know i have a hard time with it. So we keep trying. We dont give up.
Well done, laid out nicely as usual. Protestants need to take in all the evidence nm historically taught in the Church & be honest...a Purgatorial Purifying fire does not have to be a long time as we know it. Heb 12:22-24, 29 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels, in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.…...29 For our God is a Consuming Fire
Great video!
The process of purgatory could be analogous to like when we sleep. When we sleep, eight hours feels like but a few minutes.
There are two kinds of punishment. Eternal and temporal. Jesus saved us from Eternal punishment. But we still pay for the disobediance. Its like a dad telling his son not to play ball in the yard. Dad looks away the kid plays ball and breaks a window. What does dad do. The kid realizes oh man i messed up. He tells his dad he is sorry. Dad forgives him but grounds him for two weeks and takes the price of the window out of his allowance until it is paid for. Thats purgatory. Its being grounded from heaven until we let things go and accept Him fully. Now we all need to pray for the strength to become obediant and we need to repent AND ATONE for our short comings
Yikes, there's that huge Catholic limitation on Christ's already perfect atonement. You're actually bold enough to spit in the eye of it and claim we need to atone. You do that. I think God, I cannot atone for my own sins, and thank Jesus that he did. I've heard that weak Catholic analogy of a parent needing to punish a child for messing up. Only God punishing us in purgatory again, after all the trials of this life, then more fire, brimstone and refining into the next life. That would be like dear old dad, punishing the kid who breaks, makes him pay. Then dad perniciously pretends sonny is all paid up and forgiven. Son grows up, moves out, father presents him w/ the bill for the window again, w/ huge interest. Not much of a dad. Catholic version is not much of a loving God. Some "free" gift that Christ gave us, if we're still paying in the next life for our sins, that we were told were forgiven. That's not forgiveness. Even I can forgive better than that, and I have to struggle to forgive at times, which we all do.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 How do you know what is and what isn't scripture?
@@saintejeannedarc9460the Catholic church made the Bible
@@andreeattieh2963 That is such a silly thing some Catholic like to brag abvout, "the Catholic church made the bible". Do you have any idea how vulgar of a brag that sounds like? That's like a Jew saying, "We made the 10 Commandments". They did not, you Catholics did not. God ordained the commandments and the OT scriptures, as well as the NT scripture.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 it's not bragging it's a fact the Bible didn't just fall out of the sky you know
I want to know what formula the Roman institution uses to come up with those crazy numbers for purgatory
Protestants, how do you know what is and what isn't scripture?
Love how Catholics think that "if it is poorly written and uninteresting, I have still done my best" (2 Maccabees 15:38) is what the Holy Spirit would inspire.
@@YajunYuanSDA what does Peter say about Pauls writings?🙃
@@MasterKeyMagic "Paul, according to *the wisdom* given him, wrote to you, as also in all letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, *as also the rest of the Scriptures,* to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unscrupulous people and lose your own firm commitment, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."
@@YajunYuanSDA dont deflect, you know exactly which passage i was asking about: 2 Peter 3:16 There are parts of his letters that are hard to understand, and some people give a wrong meaning to them. These people are ignorant and weak in faith. They also give wrong meanings to the other Scriptures. But they are destroying themselves by doing that.
@@MasterKeyMagic What? I quoted the exact passage you did including the context.
Jerusalem in heaven is described with gates and walls. Could purgatory the area outside this Jerusalem?