Pittsburgh could definitely get commuter rail in my opinion, although it would take work to upgrade infrastructure first. We use to have a decent commuter rail system throughout 3/4 companies. I think there was around 5/10 routes going to places like Greensburg.
Till the early 1950s, West Penn Railway had an extensive Pennsylvania gauge Streetcar system centered on Westmoreland County. West Penn had connections to the Pittsburgh Railway system via McKeesport. As more and more farmers left the farm to find work, and as the Coal mines slowly shut down and more and more Pittsburgh Upper Middle Class moved to Westmoreland (and drove cars) the line went bankrupt. West Penn even had a Rail line through Fayette County and into West Virginia (Technically the West Virginia line was a separate company but had a line to Charleston West Virginia). What killed the West Penn Railway was it had to maintain its own Right of way even if that Right of Way was on a Public Street. Given the West Penn railways went through a lot of small towns on the streets of those town, when it came up to rebuild the line West Penn decided it was cheaper to convert to buses for buses did have to maintain the road the buses traveled on. Remember Gasoline taxes pays for road maintenance and that appears to be the main reason the rail system was abandoned. Why pay for maintaining a Right of Way, when you can have the State pay to improve and maintain the roads the buses traveled on? This is what killed most Interurban lines starting in the 1920s and ending in the 1950s. This was also a factor in the death of small city Streetcar lines starting in the 1930s. On the other hand Urban Streetcar lines survived very well till after WWII. Urban Streetcars lines had the same problems as rural Interubans but also had other problems. What caused the delay in replacing Streetcars with buses in larger urban areas was due to how many people still used Streetcars in Urban areas Thus the switch from Streetcars to Buses in Urban areas is mostly a post WWII scenario as car commuters started to blame Streetcars for the trqffic jams they were in (It could not be due to people driving for that is what the people complaining about Streetcars causing Traffic Jams were doing, buses eliminated not only the Streetcars themselves but other evidence of the Streetcars using the same roads, i.e. tracks in the road and overhead wires). Pittsburgh can have a better mass transit system but Pittsburgh has to be unwilling to pay to separate mass transit from automobile traffic. As long as that is the case do not expect any improvement in mass transit in Pittsburgh.
I used to take the 3f every morning from mt. Pleasant to pittsburgh when i was living with my daughter n baby ma. Didnt have a car and i liked my job on mcknight rd. I would always have about 10 or 15 minutes before the 1f swung by to get us at the sheetz in north huntingdon.
It uses the busway, so yeah I'd say it counts as BRT. One of the key benefits of BRT is that it can include a variety of through running services. Similarly in Ontario we have the Mississauga Transitway, which is used not only by Mississauga's BRT routes, but also by many GO Transit regional bus routes to cities as much as 80 km away. The busway is not in a very populated area so the stations themselves are lightly used, but the roadway and the buses are very busy thanks to the through-running to other more populous centres. Ottawa of course has the original Transitway, but the former east-west transitway has now been converted to light metro and the remaining north-south busway isn't that useful for regional routes.
If you are wondering where they got this model from it's New York MTA and New Jersey Transit since some of the commuter coach bus routes do follow Subway and commuter rail routes. Exception for NJ Transit is the long distance restroom required 319 route Wildwood Atlantic City New York. What Pittsburgh can do is try copying the New Jersey Transit System where the commuter coach bus system do serve Railroad stations and NYC.
The communities along the East Busway have been pushing to switch the Busway to Light Rain Vehicles and extend it to Greensburg. From Wikinsburg to Greensburg you would have to do one of two things 1. Make the Light Rail Vehicles on that line Standard Gauge of Four Foot and half inches (1435mm) instead of the Pennsylvania gauge of Five foot, two and a half inches used on Pittsburgh Light Rail Vehicks. 2. Set up the East Busway Light Rails as "Dual Gauge" rail. Both gauges use the inner rail, but Standard gauge rail vehicles a rail standard Gauge distant from the common inner rail and Pennsylvania gauge rail vehicles using the outside rail that is Pennsylvania gauge distant from the Common inner rail. Such "Dual Gauge" systems were common in the late 1800s mostly in areas that had both Standard Gauge and Narrow Gauge raillines. The main advantage of converting the East Busway to Light Rail is you get more buses off the Streets of Downtown Pittsburgh. Given the high number of Pedestrians who move around downtown that would improve not only Pedestrian safety but increase in travel time in that the Rail Vehicles will not be caught up in downtown traffic. As to extending the Light Rail Vehicles to Greensburg, the East Busway is on an abandoned part of the old Pennsylvania Railroad mainline Thus there is enough room for another set of tracks to Greensburg. The present Greensburg and Latrobe Railroad stations are only two tracks across, this hard to move the Light Rail line further East without substantial increase in costs but once beyond Latrobe the railbed reverts to the distance to have four tracks instead of the present day three
That was the Pattrain between McKeesport and downtown Pittsburgh. I traveled on it several times but stopped running in the 1980s. The route is now a rail to trail route between Downtown Pittsburgh and pass the Hot Metal Bridge (which connects that trail to the Southside). Prior to the 1960s you had other commuter rail but most were closed down by the early 1960s.
Unlike SEPTA PRT insanely chose busways and tore out the passenger train tracks making it impossible for outer counties to best feed into the lines. Today this makes commuting impossible between outer limits of PRT system to make it easier for the outer systems to connect to Rabbit, EPTA, MARC and others out east as the current systems out of PRT routes are far to busy overlapping PAT now PRT routes making it impossible to connect the rest of PA in into 8 state areas systems.
Thank you for this excellent video, express coaches can be very relaxing. The important aspects would be how often it stops and the condition of the road surface. It is good that the transit company runs a decent network of services too.
Most of the old infrastructure is gone. You also have other problems. 1. By Federal Law since before WWI, any Passenger vehicle that operates on a rail line that also operate freight the vehicle must be able to take a direct hit by a railroad engine. Thus Light Rail Vehicles can NOT be used on any of the local rail lines. Light Rail Vehicles are just to light to be legal to operate on those lines. New Jersey Rail get around that regulations but only operating daytime, Freight lines only run at night on those lines. 2. Western Pennsylvania is very expensive to build infrastructure given most of Western Pennsylvania has been undermined and if the mine maps exist are inaccurate. For example when I-79 was being designed a public meeting was held and Penndot told the audience where I-79 was to go for it could be done cheaply for that area had never been undermined according to the mine maps filed with the state. Ex Miners in the Audience not only said that area had been undermined, for they had mined it, but the maps filed with the state were not only inaccurate but would be filed months or years late. Penndot said that was not true. When I-79 was being built, the new roadies buckled above where the mines had existed. The mine maps had been wrong and the ex-miners had been correct. This will also be true of any new rail system, given how undermined this area is. 3. The biggest problem is choke points. The biggest one is Downtown Pittsburgh and Oakland. Underground rail has been proposed between those two areas since at least 1900. In the 1920s the residents of Pittsburgh actual voted for the issuance of bonds to build such a system After the vote was taken City Council decided to use that bond money for highway projects instead (The Boulevard of the Allies, Baum Boulevard and Liberty tunnels were some of the projects the bond money was used for). In the early 1930s the bond was canceled by City Council for they did not want to raise taxes to pay it back. Pittsburgh has a long history on attacking politicians who try to build up infrastructure. The classic case is Greater Pitt Airport. When it was decided to buy up all of the cheap and abandoned strip mines where the Airport is now, you had People's asking why build a New Airport, we had the Allegheny County Airport and we did not need a new one. The land was bought (Mostly at tax sales) and the airport built (the actual runways were paid for by the Federal Government) and the Airport has been a huge boom to this area. The people of Allegheny County the ran the County Commissioners out of office for doing so. Present day politicians remember that and do they best to do nothing unless forced (The Skybus debacle of the 1960s is an example, Skybus was adopted not because it was the best way to move people about, but it was seen as the only way to replace the last Streetcar lines in the City even as people who used that Streetcar advocated just updating the Streetcar system). This area has no imagination and can not see how best to improve this area unless some place else does it first (For Example replacing the name of the 42/38 Beechview line to the "Red line" because Boston did it first).
Pittsburgh could definitely get commuter rail in my opinion, although it would take work to upgrade infrastructure first. We use to have a decent commuter rail system throughout 3/4 companies. I think there was around 5/10 routes going to places like Greensburg.
Till the early 1950s, West Penn Railway had an extensive Pennsylvania gauge Streetcar system centered on Westmoreland County. West Penn had connections to the Pittsburgh Railway system via McKeesport. As more and more farmers left the farm to find work, and as the Coal mines slowly shut down and more and more Pittsburgh Upper Middle Class moved to Westmoreland (and drove cars) the line went bankrupt. West Penn even had a Rail line through Fayette County and into West Virginia (Technically the West Virginia line was a separate company but had a line to Charleston West Virginia).
What killed the West Penn Railway was it had to maintain its own Right of way even if that Right of Way was on a Public Street. Given the West Penn railways went through a lot of small towns on the streets of those town, when it came up to rebuild the line West Penn decided it was cheaper to convert to buses for buses did have to maintain the road the buses traveled on. Remember Gasoline taxes pays for road maintenance and that appears to be the main reason the rail system was abandoned. Why pay for maintaining a Right of Way, when you can have the State pay to improve and maintain the roads the buses traveled on? This is what killed most Interurban lines starting in the 1920s and ending in the 1950s. This was also a factor in the death of small city Streetcar lines starting in the 1930s.
On the other hand Urban Streetcar lines survived very well till after WWII. Urban Streetcars lines had the same problems as rural Interubans but also had other problems. What caused the delay in replacing Streetcars with buses in larger urban areas was due to how many people still used Streetcars in Urban areas Thus the switch from Streetcars to Buses in Urban areas is mostly a post WWII scenario as car commuters started to blame Streetcars for the trqffic jams they were in (It could not be due to people driving for that is what the people complaining about Streetcars causing Traffic Jams were doing, buses eliminated not only the Streetcars themselves but other evidence of the Streetcars using the same roads, i.e. tracks in the road and overhead wires).
Pittsburgh can have a better mass transit system but Pittsburgh has to be unwilling to pay to separate mass transit from automobile traffic. As long as that is the case do not expect any improvement in mass transit in Pittsburgh.
I used to take the 3f every morning from mt. Pleasant to pittsburgh when i was living with my daughter n baby ma. Didnt have a car and i liked my job on mcknight rd. I would always have about 10 or 15 minutes before the 1f swung by to get us at the sheetz in north huntingdon.
It uses the busway, so yeah I'd say it counts as BRT. One of the key benefits of BRT is that it can include a variety of through running services.
Similarly in Ontario we have the Mississauga Transitway, which is used not only by Mississauga's BRT routes, but also by many GO Transit regional bus routes to cities as much as 80 km away. The busway is not in a very populated area so the stations themselves are lightly used, but the roadway and the buses are very busy thanks to the through-running to other more populous centres.
Ottawa of course has the original Transitway, but the former east-west transitway has now been converted to light metro and the remaining north-south busway isn't that useful for regional routes.
If you are wondering where they got this model from it's New York MTA and New Jersey Transit since some of the commuter coach bus routes do follow Subway and commuter rail routes. Exception for NJ Transit is the long distance restroom required 319 route Wildwood Atlantic City New York. What Pittsburgh can do is try copying the New Jersey Transit System where the commuter coach bus system do serve Railroad stations and NYC.
The Pittsburgh area has no proper regional rail system
The communities along the East Busway have been pushing to switch the Busway to Light Rain Vehicles and extend it to Greensburg.
From Wikinsburg to Greensburg you would have to do one of two things
1. Make the Light Rail Vehicles on that line Standard Gauge of Four Foot and half inches (1435mm) instead of the Pennsylvania gauge of Five foot, two and a half inches used on Pittsburgh Light Rail Vehicks.
2. Set up the East Busway Light Rails as "Dual Gauge" rail. Both gauges use the inner rail, but Standard gauge rail vehicles a rail standard Gauge distant from the common inner rail and Pennsylvania gauge rail vehicles using the outside rail that is Pennsylvania gauge distant from the Common inner rail.
Such "Dual Gauge" systems were common in the late 1800s mostly in areas that had both Standard Gauge and Narrow Gauge raillines.
The main advantage of converting the East Busway to Light Rail is you get more buses off the Streets of Downtown Pittsburgh. Given the high number of Pedestrians who move around downtown that would improve not only Pedestrian safety but increase in travel time in that the Rail Vehicles will not be caught up in downtown traffic.
As to extending the Light Rail Vehicles to Greensburg, the East Busway is on an abandoned part of the old Pennsylvania Railroad mainline Thus there is enough room for another set of tracks to Greensburg. The present Greensburg and Latrobe Railroad stations are only two tracks across, this hard to move the Light Rail line further East without substantial increase in costs but once beyond Latrobe the railbed reverts to the distance to have four tracks instead of the present day three
Didn't Pittsburgh have a commuter train years ago
That was the Pattrain between McKeesport and downtown Pittsburgh. I traveled on it several times but stopped running in the 1980s. The route is now a rail to trail route between Downtown Pittsburgh and pass the Hot Metal Bridge (which connects that trail to the Southside).
Prior to the 1960s you had other commuter rail but most were closed down by the early 1960s.
Unlike SEPTA PRT insanely chose busways and tore out the passenger train tracks making it impossible for outer counties to best feed into the lines. Today this makes commuting impossible between outer limits of PRT system to make it easier for the outer systems to connect to Rabbit, EPTA, MARC and others out east as the current systems out of PRT routes are far to busy overlapping PAT now PRT routes making it impossible to connect the rest of PA in into 8 state areas systems.
I love random transit travels. I like doing train to a bus
$6 😮
Thank you for this excellent video, express coaches can be very relaxing. The important aspects would be how often it stops and the condition of the road surface. It is good that the transit company runs a decent network of services too.
Maybe Pittsburgh can restart their commuter service, Starting with Greensburg on the other lines that they abandoned in the 80s
Would it be possible to have western PA regional rail network ala SEPTA or is there not that type of rail infrastructure?
Most of the old infrastructure is gone. You also have other problems.
1. By Federal Law since before WWI, any Passenger vehicle that operates on a rail line that also operate freight the vehicle must be able to take a direct hit by a railroad engine. Thus Light Rail Vehicles can NOT be used on any of the local rail lines. Light Rail Vehicles are just to light to be legal to operate on those lines. New Jersey Rail get around that regulations but only operating daytime, Freight lines only run at night on those lines.
2. Western Pennsylvania is very expensive to build infrastructure given most of Western Pennsylvania has been undermined and if the mine maps exist are inaccurate. For example when I-79 was being designed a public meeting was held and Penndot told the audience where I-79 was to go for it could be done cheaply for that area had never been undermined according to the mine maps filed with the state. Ex Miners in the Audience not only said that area had been undermined, for they had mined it, but the maps filed with the state were not only inaccurate but would be filed months or years late. Penndot said that was not true. When I-79 was being built, the new roadies buckled above where the mines had existed. The mine maps had been wrong and the ex-miners had been correct. This will also be true of any new rail system, given how undermined this area is.
3. The biggest problem is choke points. The biggest one is Downtown Pittsburgh and Oakland. Underground rail has been proposed between those two areas since at least 1900. In the 1920s the residents of Pittsburgh actual voted for the issuance of bonds to build such a system After the vote was taken City Council decided to use that bond money for highway projects instead (The Boulevard of the Allies, Baum Boulevard and Liberty tunnels were some of the projects the bond money was used for). In the early 1930s the bond was canceled by City Council for they did not want to raise taxes to pay it back.
Pittsburgh has a long history on attacking politicians who try to build up infrastructure. The classic case is Greater Pitt Airport. When it was decided to buy up all of the cheap and abandoned strip mines where the Airport is now, you had People's asking why build a New Airport, we had the Allegheny County Airport and we did not need a new one. The land was bought (Mostly at tax sales) and the airport built (the actual runways were paid for by the Federal Government) and the Airport has been a huge boom to this area. The people of Allegheny County the ran the County Commissioners out of office for doing so. Present day politicians remember that and do they best to do nothing unless forced (The Skybus debacle of the 1960s is an example, Skybus was adopted not because it was the best way to move people about, but it was seen as the only way to replace the last Streetcar lines in the City even as people who used that Streetcar advocated just updating the Streetcar system).
This area has no imagination and can not see how best to improve this area unless some place else does it first (For Example replacing the name of the 42/38 Beechview line to the "Red line" because Boston did it first).
It’s really stupid how the prt builds loads of transit and then abandons it, like the commuter rail lines
I think the question is Where are the people going from Greensburg, PA?
3:14 why is the Pennsylvanian once a day it should be like 2-3
they’re actually adding a second daily train using bipartisan funds.
How is the economy in Pittsburgh?
If you’re debating about whether something is a BRT ever, use the BRT standard to figure it out
I'm... not sure how I feel about taking all the free samples while explicitly intending not to buy anything :/
I feel like the game is more "how long before something wins me over" than "how long before someone catches on and cuts me off"