I attended a wedding at the World Prayer Center at New Life Church in Colorado Springs (one of the centers of the NAR), and saw a lot of pictures of "God's Generals" but NO mention of Jesus Christ or the gospel!
I can SO relate to what you are saying! Once you see it, you can't unsee it & it creeps in everywhere! Everything he mentioned, I've witnessed with my family & friends. The Seeking of more than the Bible and their church. Looking for this emotional new thing, the new revelation, the new music, the new way to tithe. All deception at the core, when all we need is our Bible & a good church with great theology teaching!
After having been in the "Charismatic Movement" since 1972 (and heard it all and been through every wind of doctrine one could name) I now conclude there is as much validity to these beliefs as there is in the mythology of the Greeks, Romans, and every religion before and since. Especially Christianity.
May I contribute with a little more information? NAR centers do preach from the Scriptures. The problem is that the Scriptures are taken out of context and twisted into meaning what they want them to mean. One classic example is this: NAR outlets take Ro. 4:17 totally out of its context, and twist it to mean that you and I have the power to speak things into existence (Extreme Word of Faith). That idea is a major idea within NAR centers (Notice that I, personally, do not call them churches.). Because of this, making declarations and decrees are of ultimate importance & decreeing is actually considered prayer. They also have their own Bible, called the Passion Translation, which was/is still being “channeled” by Brian Simmons, who also believes that God is going to give him another book to the Bible, -specifically, another book to add to the book of John. And, as you know, ‘new revelation’ is very highly esteemed & oftentimes used to supercede Scripture. However, there are many people that are involved in the NAR that truly love God, but are still blinded to the truth of what is happening in those circles.
I'm wondering of all the faith healers what the story is with Smith Wigglesworth. Would you be able to do an episode on him? If you are able thanks. Also what about the decree and declare that NAR seems to be into? Blessings David
Wow that was a lot. But it was good. The guest made a good point about the COVID-19 lock downstairs. So many churches were up in arms about the closings. But this young man said that's when he woke up. No more group think.😂
It's so great that people outside the message and ex message people are finding out about WMB! And how evil he was. I wish message people knew that part. It's here, for when they sre ready.
Rise of Network Christianity is quite old but still relevant, and describes perfectly the NAR church "structure". "Vertical structure": An series of MLM pyramids of Apostle-dictators and their private church fiefdoms, money flows up, "spiritual covering" flows down. A ring of top -tier Apostles at the top. Every Apostle has a barn of Prophets. No denominations anywhere. "Horizontal structure": temporary associations between Apostolic groups, not necessarily in the same pyramid, to put on conferences, meetings, campus, music outreaches, etc. A lot of money brought in a split up here. And everywhere ... NAR ideas infiltrating non-NAR churches through congregants, usually without pastors' knowledge.
It’s funny about the pyramid thing because ALL “churches” are this way. Even the “good Gospel “ !! If a pastor is the head of a group of Christian’s, it’s still a cult. Pastor, is a gift that a brother operates in and in no way does that ELEVATE him.
Come to think of it no prophet or apostle in the Bible called themselves a prophet or apostle yet they call themselves that and people are still going for it
The funny thing is that this NAR movement came from the notion of “Bible only” because “Bible only” isn’t enough. The notion of “Bible only” is actually one of these “new revelations” that’s as novel as the NAR itself. The Bible has always belonged in the context of the Church and it therefore can’t be separated from it. When it is separated it creates all of these shenanigans. I’d suggest people check out the vid “Having The Bible Without the Church?” on the PatristicNectarFilms channel to get a better understanding of this historical/theological context.
Your guest seems to still be very accepting of "prophets giving a word" to the church. He mentioned a process that makes it legitimate. Go to the pastor 1st etc. I'm only 3 years out of WOF & unlearning many false teachings. I'm not seeing ANY current day prophets & certainly don't believe in apostles as they've been pushed on eager congregations. If a prophet gets it wrong, he's not a prophet. Apologizing for missing it doesn't legitimize them . I'd love to hear sound teaching to the contrary if there truly are modern-day prophets.
Read the Bible on it. Please do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It takes time to heal, has taken me years but I promise you, our Great Shepherd has sweet green pastures. He is all and restores all. ❤
In Pentecostalism and its many offshoots, a Christian’s identity is first and foremost in believing the claim that the charismatic gifts were restored around the time of Parham and Asuza. It is extremely difficult for adherents to apply scrutiny to prophetic or miraculous claims because they would soon realize most of their heroes are villains and it is extremely difficult and/or impossible to verify their heroes’ claims (unless the claims are proven untrue like the “Show Me the Toes” debacle and recent debunked IHOPKC prophecies). But that IS Christianity to them or at least it is a majority portion of how they understand and practice Christianity. To leave that behind means isolation from their entire community’s beliefs and practices. Better just to kind-of believe the BS from the leaders than actually realize it’s not true. It’s a big psychological mess. But, it’s possible to come out of it.
The prophecies have all been fulfilled. There were only 12 apostles plus Paul. Jesus personally chose them, they didn’t choose him. Those apostles through Holy Spirit’s leading wrote the New Testament. When they died, apostleship ceased. We have pastors, missionaries, teachers, but no more apostles.
It is hard to unsee it, but I find it even harder to help anybody else to see it. It’s like I’m talking in another language.
This was an excellent post. Kudos to your guest for being so open to biblical truth. God bless.
Dawn Hill is the woman with the lovesick scribe podcast. Love her videos exposing the NAR too!
I attended a wedding at the World Prayer Center at New Life Church in Colorado Springs (one of the centers of the NAR), and saw a lot of pictures of "God's Generals" but NO mention of Jesus Christ or the gospel!
I can SO relate to what you are saying! Once you see it, you can't unsee it & it creeps in everywhere! Everything he mentioned, I've witnessed with my family & friends. The Seeking of more than the Bible and their church. Looking for this emotional new thing, the new revelation, the new music, the new way to tithe. All deception at the core, when all we need is our Bible & a good church with great theology teaching!
Loved this talk. Great guest please have him again.
Great guest. Bring him back on for round 2.
Your guest was inspiring! Thank you for having him on.
Thanks, so much, John and Sean for this really interesting video!!
If someone professes to be a prophet or Apostle. No need to test to see if they're true. The mere claim disqualifies them.
FO' SHIZZLE!
Agreed 👍
Thank you both for this well articulated video, appreciate all you do 🙏
Good one, thanks!
After having been in the "Charismatic Movement" since 1972 (and heard it all and been through every wind of doctrine one could name) I now conclude there is as much validity to these beliefs as there is in the mythology of the Greeks, Romans, and every religion before and since. Especially Christianity.
May I contribute with a little more information?
NAR centers do preach from the Scriptures. The problem is that the Scriptures are taken out of context and twisted into meaning what they want them to mean. One classic example is this: NAR outlets take Ro. 4:17 totally out of its context, and twist it to mean that you and I have the power to speak things into existence (Extreme Word of Faith). That idea is a major idea within NAR centers (Notice that I, personally, do not call them churches.). Because of this, making declarations and decrees are of ultimate importance & decreeing is actually considered prayer.
They also have their own Bible, called the Passion Translation, which was/is still being “channeled” by Brian Simmons, who also believes that God is going to give him another book to the Bible, -specifically, another book to add to the book of John. And, as you know, ‘new revelation’ is very highly esteemed & oftentimes used to supercede Scripture.
However, there are many people that are involved in the NAR that truly love God, but are still blinded to the truth of what is happening in those circles.
That is so messed up!!
@@lesliewells-ig5dl Yes, it is.😢
This talk was so good! Worth listening avain.
It's so strange how people are so busy chasing new prophecies that they don't look back at all the past prophecies that failed from the same people!!
Really helpful. God bless you.
Been there for years. Glad I got out in 2019
I'm glad you got out!!
I just left this. The broadcast is helpful.
I'm so glad you got out!!
Thank you both 🙏
I'm wondering of all the faith healers what the story is with Smith Wigglesworth. Would you be able to do an episode on him? If you are able thanks. Also what about the decree and declare that NAR seems to be into? Blessings David
Wow that was a lot. But it was good. The guest made a good point about the COVID-19 lock downstairs. So many churches were up in arms about the closings. But this young man said that's when he woke up. No more group think.😂
A lot of people say that is when they woke up as well 😎
A lot of crazy people found each other online though during COVID, and QAnon syncretism hit churches all over.
Great interview! 😊
It's so great that people outside the message and ex message people are finding out about WMB! And how evil he was. I wish message people knew that part. It's here, for when they sre ready.
Good Morning!
Can’t wait!
great talk! honest and relatable. blessings to you both
Modern theology that’s still drawing on a dead man’s heresies and the cult he created. Great insight.
I think it’s safe to say that NAR is basically dungeons and dragons with a bad conscience? I prefer the original game ;-)
I like the idea of being able to open up at church , it dure wasn't like that in message churches.
Two book recommendations: “The Rise of Network Christianity” by Flory and “Testimony” by Jon Ward.
Rise of Network Christianity is quite old but still relevant, and describes perfectly the NAR church "structure".
"Vertical structure": An series of MLM pyramids of Apostle-dictators and their private church fiefdoms, money flows up, "spiritual covering" flows down. A ring of top -tier Apostles at the top. Every Apostle has a barn of Prophets. No denominations anywhere.
"Horizontal structure": temporary associations between Apostolic groups, not necessarily in the same pyramid, to put on conferences, meetings, campus, music outreaches, etc. A lot of money brought in a split up here.
And everywhere ... NAR ideas infiltrating non-NAR churches through congregants, usually without pastors' knowledge.
@ It was published 2017 - not too old
Feng shui: don't blame your parents or your ancestors: blame the furniture instead!
It’s funny about the pyramid thing because ALL “churches” are this way. Even the “good Gospel “ !! If a pastor is the head of a group of Christian’s, it’s still a cult. Pastor, is a gift that a brother operates in and in no way does that ELEVATE him.
Morning, if you need a story told. I can tell you mine, would love to share
Would love to hear your story and I’m sure it will help many people as well 😎🙏
Come to think of it no prophet or apostle in the Bible called themselves a prophet or apostle yet they call themselves that and people are still going for it
The funny thing is that this NAR movement came from the notion of “Bible only” because “Bible only” isn’t enough. The notion of “Bible only” is actually one of these “new revelations” that’s as novel as the NAR itself. The Bible has always belonged in the context of the Church and it therefore can’t be separated from it. When it is separated it creates all of these shenanigans. I’d suggest people check out the vid “Having The Bible Without the Church?” on the PatristicNectarFilms channel to get a better understanding of this historical/theological context.
When I hear the term “prophetess” my mind auto corrects to “witch”
The phenomenon of rejecting the ancient doctrine of apostolic succession while positing new apostles is the funniest yet most destructive irony.
It's apostolic succession, but on a different foundation.
@@cateclism316 Yeah, starting with Branham I suppose.
Your guest seems to still be very accepting of "prophets giving a word" to the church. He mentioned a process that makes it legitimate. Go to the pastor 1st etc. I'm only 3 years out of WOF & unlearning many false teachings. I'm not seeing ANY current day prophets & certainly don't believe in apostles as they've been pushed on eager congregations. If a prophet gets it wrong, he's not a prophet. Apologizing for missing it doesn't legitimize them . I'd love to hear sound teaching to the contrary if there truly are modern-day prophets.
Read the Bible on it. Please do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. It takes time to heal, has taken me years but I promise you, our Great Shepherd has sweet green pastures. He is all and restores all. ❤
In Pentecostalism and its many offshoots, a Christian’s identity is first and foremost in believing the claim that the charismatic gifts were restored around the time of Parham and Asuza. It is extremely difficult for adherents to apply scrutiny to prophetic or miraculous claims because they would soon realize most of their heroes are villains and it is extremely difficult and/or impossible to verify their heroes’ claims (unless the claims are proven untrue like the “Show Me the Toes” debacle and recent debunked IHOPKC prophecies). But that IS Christianity to them or at least it is a majority portion of how they understand and practice Christianity. To leave that behind means isolation from their entire community’s beliefs and practices. Better just to kind-of believe the BS from the leaders than actually realize it’s not true. It’s a big psychological mess. But, it’s possible to come out of it.
you are absolutely correct
@phizzelout Thank you! I love be correct!
The prophecies have all been fulfilled. There were only 12 apostles plus Paul. Jesus personally chose them, they didn’t choose him. Those apostles through Holy Spirit’s leading wrote the New Testament. When they died, apostleship ceased. We have pastors, missionaries, teachers, but no more apostles.