@@MadLuigi I was thinking if goderick is part of the golden lineage and Marika had to divest something to become a god thus my theory is the other shamans were known to have flesh that could meld with a lot of stuff so could grafting be a form of melding flesh thus giving the origins of how it came to be
@tuba3000 yes but he isn't the same type of jar from the shadow realm. The shadow realm jars were used for alive people flayed and put into jars to be melded with numen flesh. The Erdtree jars instead act as transport for already dead bodies to be taken to minor erdtrees and broken so the erdtree avatar may put the bodies on the roots. No torture involved and alot less morbid albeit slightly. So it may be that erdtree pots didn't have specific age groups put inside they just shoved whatever could fit. Which makes sense since most of them are going though battlefields consuming dead soldiers.
@@michaelostergren3516 where does it say that shaman are all numen? "Where Marika first set foot" not born. The shadow realm is not the land of the numen. The shaman village is just where she lived after she arrived and before she ascended.
I think that Marika’s betrayal had to do with her being a “perfected” saint. I think being a saint means that you can become a vessel for a god. This probably gave her some new status in their society. She probably used this status to get the Empyrean Grandam or whoever was in charge to let her ascend to godhood. Now, as a god, she turns around and enacts her vengeance on the people who “helped” elevate her to that status. That’s the betrayal. The Hornsent were probably like “bro we graciously turned you into a saint and then let you become a god, why would you kill us? We did you a favor.”
Being a saint is following God or being a very good or pure person pretty much a creature or human that's in Order Natural No Evil no Wrongness or wicked mind set pretty much. So i guess she was bless and her peoples was not as they were pretty whicked and doing Evil stuff all the time and so she turn on them and well it's got no better.
So something to note that I’ve seen JP speakers mention, the original word used for “Shaman Village” is apparently closer to “Miko”, or “Shrine Maiden”. The only time this isn’t consistent is with the “shaman” mentioned on the Greatjar helmet, which does not use the same characters. Yeaaaaaahhhhh….. they were most likely chopping up priestesses….
Since Melina knows the incantation, that means She knows of the Shaman village and Messmer is clearly the first born. Both got fire magic too. I wish there's more to Melina story
Had a lovely chat with someone over on reddit who was convinced that the Shamans actually consented to being jarred. I question if we played the same game.
What i want to know is whey they were all killed? Why would the hornsent eliminate all of them if they are valuable for thier pot ritual? I wonder if they did it soon after marika became a god as retribution. Which then made marika even angrier.
On a related note, The design of the furnace golems seems to be a sort of twisted karmic retribution towards the Hornsent approved by Messmer and Marika. The shamans were mutilated, then stuffed into jars to become saints by the Hornsent so in response, Marika orders her son Messmer to wage a brutal, genocidal war against the Land of Shadow with his most prominent war machine being the massive furnace golems where the Hornsent themselves are rounded up in droves, dead or alive (but most likely still alive for extra cruelty), to be stuffed in the golems and lit aflame to bring it to life. Imagine the screams and howls of terror and agony and the smell of burning flesh as the golem surges to life; An instrument of death’s first gasps of “life” brought forth by the deaths of so many within its frame to serve as fuel for the golem as it marches over the land as an instrument of terror, destruction and mockery as it wears the horned mask of the fell god of fire the Hornsent so feared.
Great video! Love the idea of Marika being a successful 'saint'. Truly how strange how Marika's background has a lot of similarities to the Emperor from 40k's old lore. The Shamans in 40k were psykers who would reincarnate upon death but over time the Warp (place where Psychic power comes from) was starting to become more tumultuous and dangerous (Chaos Gods) so the reincarnation was getting harder. Eventually the shamans pooled together, committed ritual suicide and combined into the one known as the 'Emperor'..an extraordinarily powerful psychic being who would eventually unite Mankind and protect it from the predations of the Warp. Also, Marika steps through the Divine Gate and sometime later has 'Demi-God' children that each seem to have different aspects of life or Outer Gods. The Emperor steps through a gate on Molech and is suggested to have gained knowledge from the Chaos Gods in a pact (which he goes back on and 'betrays the Gods') but this enables him to create 20 great generals called 'Primarchs' which, like the demi-gods seem to have different aspects too.
Another few things I found interesting were the Highland Warriors and their bear fighting habits smack of Godfrey. While Marika was from the Shaman village I think young Hourah Loux lived among the Highlanders. The Highlander set looks like an precursor to the armor Godfrey wears and the beast claws fighting style is very much Hourah Loux. Fighting giant rune bears with his bear hands growing up would certainly explain his... everything? Not a big deal but the Death Knight armor actually looks inspired by Godfrey's Lord armor. They wield axes on top of that, this implies to me that perhaps Godwyn admired his father as much as Radahn, since he dressed his personal guard like him.
I wonder if that specific Hornsent who said these cruel words to the shamans in Bonny Village lived long enough to be subject to similar cruelties by Messmer’s crusaders when they invaded. I don’t know how long Hornsent lived but assuming he lived to see the crusade take place, I can only imagine it shifting from him whipping shamans with tooth whips and shoving them in jars like it's an ordinary day to him being captured by the crusaders before enduring days of being beaten and branded by serpent flails while being yelled at with slurs and obscenities by them such as being “Graceless scum” who’s only purpose is to be hunted, dehorned, impaled and burned before being forced to march alongside fellow Hornsent who’ve been rounded up, beaten, branded and dehorned to a furnace golem that has yet to come to life. As the Hornsent are being pushed and crammed inside the golem to the point where’s it’s getting hard to breathe, they are given a speech by a Black Knight captain who says that though they are graceless vermin with no place in the order, their lives will at least serve one purpose: as kindling for their holy crusade. The Hornsent suddenly reminisces on those shamans back in Bonny Village and realizes that he has become a victim to the same cruelties he inflicted on them. However, he has no time to think of his current predicament as the crusaders set the golem aflame and the screams of countless Hornsent and the stench of their burning flesh fill the air as the golem comes to life. So ends the life of one Hornsent among thousands, now used to fuel a lifeless machine of death and murder as it marches onto the battlefield. And so, the crusade continues.
Crazy...That's the beauty of duality, The one who tortured is now the one getting tortured. Him not realizing what the shamans must have felt to him understanding how cruel they actually were. Him and all the other hornsent must have really realized how wrong and cruel they were. Maybye thats why the greater will chose marika? so that she could be the one to enlighten them.
@@theenderdestruction2362 did she tho? I mean she did exile any creature reminicent of the hornseng and or crucible and she did cut of the horns of baby omens. But was really as cruel as the ways of the hornsent? But i get what u mean. Perhaps both the hornsent and marika were destined to fail so that we the tarnished could bring about a new age.
@@Samples12 Baby Omens horns were cut off. Imagine forcing a parent to do that for your own traumas' sake and then making anyone who has grace and is under your order hate and despise anyone not apart of it or has grace something you control, imagine making it so only the elites omen children can live but in the sewers below, imagine using countless people just to make your own, what the hornsent did was horrible, horrible indeed, but what marika did was just as bad in another flavor, and dont forget the rune of death was removed meaning those hornsent corpses we find on fire golums are most likely still alive and in extreame amount of pain and their bodies are so burnt they cant speak, marika didnt just become the hornsent she fucking one uped em in cruelty, and not to mention she left her own son alone to be the most viled and hated thing in the lands of shadow and earsed it all from history, the tarnished were supposedly summon back by marika but i feel like the tarnished of no renown might have been summoned by the greater will itself, perhaps even though its been long sense gone then our tarnished was a last resort a sorta nuclear option sense in lore either the tarnishef no difffed malakith or worse he tanked destined death either way the tarnished of no renown almost seems like the nuclear option that and we mabye a demi god cause from memory somewhere miazaky said we wernt a human i could be entire wrong and spreading false information but yeah... seriously though, marika just basically one upped the hornsent by doing even more heinous shit cause, like i said, the hornsent were horrible, horrible beings but marika did everyone dirty cause imagine having to habe your child more then likely killed cause of a curse placed upon them and if they survive their in agonizing pain and you indoctrinated those same parents into hating their own child at that point trauma response means jack shit and you should be crucifed
@@Samples12Even besides the crusade itself and damning half the continent including her own devoted son to the Realm of Shadows Marika also sent Godfrey on a brutal conquest involving the genocide of the Fire Giants, the mass incarceration and enslavement of Omen and Misbegotten, a violent expansion into sovereign territories like Liurnia and Limgrave, the upending of established societies like those of The Storm Lord and the Ancient Dragons; so yeah, she's at least as bad as the Hornsent.
I think Marika is a tragic character, and i feel like the Minor Erdtree incantation is very telling to who she was. She just wanted to heal herself and those around her from the tragedies of the world she lived in. The blame is rarely placed on Radagon, the Order side of her. A lot of people forget that the Age of Plenty was before the Age of Order. The Age of Plenty was notably when Godfrey was the Elden Lord and its also noted that the Erdtree wasn't ethereal, but an actual tree that would drop sap and actually provide for those that lived under it. But even during the Age of Plenty, Radagon was still a part of Marika and i feel like Radagon made decisions during these ages through Marika that lead to more "order"
What really pisses me off is how the Hornsent act like the world's most oppressed and victimized people when the consequences of their own actions slapped them in the face. Like when a small kid pushes another kid and the second that pushed kid pushes back the first kid runs to an adult crying about being pushed. The hornsent give me a freaking headache. As for the betrayal I personally read it as the hornsent had plans for the shamans and as soon as Marika survived and reached godhood (I think godhood and sainthood are two very different things here) they saw it as a betrayal on her part as she deviated from their plans. Too much bad blood between both parties for either of them to ever tolerate the other. Marika's a monster but she wasn't born a monster, she was made into one. Her unresolved traumas extended to literally everyone else including her own children therefore causing so much more misery. Count Ymir said it best: "The roots are rotted" (paraphrasing here).
Yeah. I went into the Shadow Realm expecting to hate Marika’s apparent religious crusade and her seemingly smug, superior son. Once her motives and origin became clear, I was enraged at the supposed “victims.” I still despise Marika, but she wouldn’t have existed were it not for the degeneracy of the Hornsent civilization. And, unlike her, they have no apparent Freudian excuse. They’re just evil and devoid of all self-awareness.
I much prefer this version of the "corruption" of Marika. I find it much more compelling than some overly literal magical corruption. I feel the same way about Miquella's mind control as well, a very boring way of exploring Miquella's influence in my opinion. With the Haligtree it seemed like those who followed Miquella did so out of sincere reverence, whether well founded or not. Overall I find the DLC lore all over the place...
After understanding Marikas lore i felt for it , i believe that its justified to burn the world where such cruelty exists, unfortunately such cruelty exists in real world too
Exactly this, the Hornsent plead victimhood when their crimes include -Torturing people with whips lined with rotten teeth - Chopping up bodies and jamming them into jars to meld together in an agonising process - Torturing the shamans and trying to meld them with other beings in the name of their crazed beliefs. Only to result in a painful amalgamation of bodies that cry out in pain. Then when one of their victims becomes a god they’re surprised that she exacts vengeance?
@@kristapszile1704i'd argue that burning the world still isn't justified where many innocents just want to live in peace. Want to find love and happiness.
I do wonder if perhaps Radagon really was a separate person who Marika fell in love with and decided to meld with, using her perfected shaman body. Its possible St. Trina and Miquella were the same way.
I've been thinking this too. They represent the alchemical Rebis, or divine hermaphrodite found in a lot of alchemy texts. That's been made clear by the story. Maybe they weren't always fused and that happened when they finally got together. Also, the ability to fuse flesh sounds a lot like what happens with the grafted, doesn't it?
@antigrav6004 Grafting is unholy and usually forced upon someone, whereas the melding seems almost medical in the way its positively received and perceived. I think they're both similar fundamentally, but in my personal opinion I don't think they have any real connection to one another
I think the "seduction" refers to a pact made with Two Fingers by her village. I also think it was the Two Fingers that introduced Marika to Order, and probably the Hornsent's Gate of Divinity was used to summon the Elden Beast, of which Marika became the vessel. But I like a lot your idea of Marika as the successful "saint." This would explain why the Hornsent would have accepted her rule, despite her shrouding their land in shadow. Perhaps it wasn't until the omen curse started to afflict her children that she determined to cleanse the Land of Shadow of the Hornsent. We also know the Hornsent fear the Fell God, and perhaps they were allies during the war of the giants, while aspects of the crucible were still valorised by the Golden Order.
It's mentioned that the crucible knights weren't initially villified when they served Godfrey but came to be hated. Also the leadership of the Black Knights use crucible incantations, despite being in conflict with a largely crucible-based culture. The black keep also is protected by a Golden Hippo that uses the crucible too. There was definitely a deal of time between Marika becoming a god and creating the land of shadow and when she ordered the crusade, supported by several pieces of evidence. I think Marika creating the land of shadow to seal off the hornsent and as a place to suppress death was probably negatively seen by the hornsent but not enough for them to fully hate Marika. As the Erdtree's age of plenty ended and the Erdtree became a religious object and golden order fundamentalism started to form under Radagon, people began to hate the crucible in the Lands Between, and probably the bigger threats to the Golden Order like the Ancient Dragons, Fire Giants, and probably the Nox and Godskins were defeated by that point, so it would have been easy to rile up the Erdtree faithful on such a brutal crusade on the civilization of their forebears compared to earlier, which was probably seen as a huge betrayal by the hornsent. And it was after the crusade that Marika sealed entry to the Lands of Shadow and cut Messmer and his followers loose.
This is the very best Lore analysis done on Marika's nature and tragedy I've seen among a dozen in a month, this channel globally deserve to be far more followed, and REALLY BRING more than the others. Pertinent aesthetic Lore investigations here instead of absurdities projected on the base Lore with psychology/anthropology taints. Fantasies can be ok, however the (Miyazaki's secret) uncovered focused Truth is amazing.
Its interesting how Marika sought to destroy the hornsent and their culture, but considered it appropriate to keep some cultural traditions, such as tree worship and the use of jars. Reminds me about how other Religions often appropriated aspects of cultures that were incorporated or subjugated.
Yoooo why didn’t it cross my mind once that Marika actually became a Saint from the pot! 😮 could that explain her duality and even why she has fire giant, serpent and horn sent connections since she is made from multiple beings?
When I found this area, I remember thinking "It's nice that in a land as horrific and scarred as the Land of Shadow is, a place like this still exists within it. Calm, serene, peaceful" Then I found the lock of hair. The sheer Weight of the realization of where I was hit me so hard, you have no idea.
The statues of Marika have their heads cut off by Messmer & his army - it's because Marika abandoned them and they cut the heads off her statues symbolically EDIT: And more for you regarding the jars in Marika's age you reference at the end. Take a look at the Festive Grease's item description to see that Marika allowed some practices from the previous age to continue on in her own age. Godfrey did have his Crucible Knights, after all. The jar practices continued on in Marika's age, but in a different way. Likely taking the remains of fallen warriors (possibly from the coliseum culture that her and Godfrey set up) and using them as fertilizer for the Erdtree and minor erdtrees
i like to think that marika was okay with the living jar coming on land between, is because it simply remind her of her people. that might be why she take care of them and most of them (in lore) is pretty cheerful and peaceful creature
Another amazing video! About the seduction and betrayal, I think that Marika was an empyrean that gathered forces and fought together with the hornsent against the giants and the fell god. After all, the crucible knights were part of Godfrey's army and it's said that the hornsent fear the fell god. That could be the seduction (destroy the fell god together) and the betrayal, since Marika would then attack and destroy the hornsent after that, reaching the gates of divinity and becoming a god. The thing is that we have to assume that Marika was not a god yet before defeating the giants. There is dialogue with the hornsent Grandam showing that she knew Marika and she was an empyrean too, so maybe she was supposed to be the next god, since the gates of divinity were in the power of the hornsent, and Marika betrayed her.
All the statues of Marika within the Lands Between depict her with her braid cut off. But it looks like the statues within the Lands of Shadow depict her with her braid still in tact, implying they were very likely made before Mesmer's Crusade. One thing that still does not sit right with me however is the Minor Erdtree in the Shaman Village and it's invocation, because the actual Erdtree is said not to be made by the Golden Order, but adopted from the pre-existing tree that had ties to the crucible. The Golden Glow of the Erdtree however is heavily implied to be more akin to a Fungus taking over the tree and its roots, which can be seen in-game by the fungal-like strands of gold in the upper branches of the erdtree, and by the fact that mushrooms (the fruiting bodies of fungal networks) have a golden glow. One explenation for this can be found within the item description of the Minor Erdtree Incantation, which specifically mentions it being an "Illusion of an Erdtree", which could suggest that what sets the incantation apart from the Minor Erdtree we find in the Shaman Village, is that that incantation was cast on a pre-existing sapling. Thus, using the term "Illusion" as a way of signaling that the/any Erdtree is only the illusion of a tree, which would support the Endoparasitic Fungi theory. I feel like just the wording "Illusion of an Erdtree" is a bit too weak to support this theory, so if anyone has any other lore sources that would support this, I'd love to hear them.
The fact that the jar village seeks a potentate, makes me think some hornsent were mixed in. And the new jarberg is like a lingering past life memory seeping through the flesh, hense the similarities in customs.
Blew my mind with the flesh implications and the grafting. The whole concept of grafting trees is like a bastardisation of the beliefs of the shamans. With the forced graft, for selfish gain opposed to the grandmother in the tree who seemed to be more harmonious with nature. To apoint even miquella could of been inspired by this with his haligtree. Mind blown. Nice work dude! Keep it up!
OH! The ending of this video just made something have MUCH more sense! It concerned the Jars in the Main Game. When going through the Jars in the Land of Shadow, it was a torturous punishment, NOT a rite of honor or something willingly done! Maybe a Potentate, who was actually kind, or grew horrorified by the Land of Shadows practice of Jarification, left those Lands, came to the Lands Between, and began the much kinder, loving, and warrior's honor culture of the Jars we know and love! Possibly, THAT Potentate is the very one Jar-Bairn speaks of, who made THEIR kind, and put them in a far-away village to try to keep them safe! I so confused at first, and the ending of this vid, I was like:'OH! I get it now!' Thank You!
I think the thing I'm most confused by is Marika, and all the ways she has attained more power, the Elden Ring, the Divine Gate, being merged as a shaman. What order did these event's happen in? Which one made her a god, and what is the significance of each one? Is each one marked by a different Elden Lord? It feels like seeing the process of Miquella becoming a god is supposed to clarify things, but it makes me more confused because it seems contradictory to what we knew about Marika in the base game. I'm starting to wonder if anything in the base game was actually Marika's doing, or did Radagon do it on her behalf/ as her after she ascended to godhood.
I think the entirety of Marika's reign was a power struggle for her God hood against the elden beast and then Radagon which is a battle she eventually lost.
Personally, what makes sense to me is that she made a pact with the Two Fingers by her village to unite her Gold with Order, and used the Divine Gate to summon the Elden Beast and reform the Elden Ring. There is a curious qualification in the Elden Stars description that says: "the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would *later become* the Elden Ring." It seems to me that the Elden Beast may not have actually been involved in the Elden Ring of the Ancient Dragons, and that Marika ascended to Godhood around the time the Dragons had a similar "shattering" war, where Bayle revolted against Placidusax. The Fingers made an appeal to Marika to reform the Elden Ring, and they used the Divine Gate of the Hornsent to summon the Elden Beast, who became the Elden Ring of which Marika is the vessel. This makes sense to me as the Fingers would be motivated to renew contact with the Greater Will, from whom they had been severed, and Marika would be motivated to free her people from oppression and rule over a Golden Age of Life.
I wonder (given the trees emblazoned on the warrior jar lids in the lands between), perhaps it was Marika herself who started the practice of creating the living warrior jars. A kind of taking a nightmare from her past and turning it into something wholesome. A strange form of healing. I heard someone else speculate such possibilities. I like the thought the more I ruminate on it.
I like the Bonny village theory. The jar industry seems much larger than a village with two buildings. Maybe they forced un-jarred Shamans to reproduce in the gaols.
my head canon are marika sided with hornsent thus betraying her own kind, the shaman. maybe she do that to infiltrate and destroy hornsent from within, but at the time she's become a god, its too late, the shaman village is no more. and thats what i think her confession to the grandmother. confession of the betrayer
I've always wished that we had the option or ability to speak with Marika. I was disappointed when i found out we couldn't. I was hoping that in the dlc we would be able to in some way, shape or form. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. Seeing Marika crucified broke my heart and a horrific punishment and cruel fate. Finding out her backstory just makes me even more sad that we can't save her.
I hadn't made the connection between shamans and trees before, but now that you mention it miquella was using his blood to grow the haligtree, and the crucible(where all life blends together) was stated to be the primordial form of the erdtree. Perhaps the shamans are the crucible itself, and Marika grew the erdtree using her blood to fufill a similar purpose for her own people, that would probably go some way to explaining why the hornsent would commit atrocities on such a scale to an undeserving sect of people for the sake of criminal rehabilitation. Although this theory doesn't take into account the scadutree if I remember correctly it's the shadow of the erdtree so it may still be plausible
Good video and I find your story really correct as they mentioned about the seduction and the betrayal. But what the people did Ftet she came as an Saint from the jar is not known
I see the lands between jarring practices to be more attuned to assimilating another previous culture into the new regime through a modified version of the custom.
Marika did nothing wrong. P.S the Japanese translation of shaman village is apparently Shrine maiden village or miko village. Miko essentially meaning female shamans in english but the female connotations in japanese is very big. Miko are female shamans who are shrine maidens who take care of shrines, heal, bless and guide people. They also perform rituals so as to convey the will of the god(s) which is very interesting.
The snakeskin likely belonged to the Great Serpent. We know the Godskins and Rykard are connected. Rykard devours champions to add their power to his own. It is similar to the Jar culture of Bonny village, only Rykard himself is the vessel. The village of Dominula skins and burns men, piling them up so that the cycle of Death and Rebirth can restart anew (halted by the removal of Destined Death), and we find a Godskin Apostle at Dominula and a Noble at Eiglay. Clearly, the Great Serpent practiced human sacrifice (per the Serpent sword), and the Serpent uses Poison just like the Fly-Men of the Ailing Village. The Beastmen carry Jar shields and we see plenty of Lions with Omen horns, meaning they were all under the obedience of the Order that came before Marika (as evidenced by the Lion Dancer). I think Marika seduced and betrayed the Great Serpent, which is why Messmer is a vessel of the Abyssal Serpent and why he was cast out to the Shadowlands. Rykard knows this and, so, embraced the Blasphemous Serpent to mock the stolen power and the foundation that Marika used to make her new Order. Mesmerizing snakes (or charming them) is an old practice, and the twirling of the Dancer of Ranah is akin to mesmerism. Perhaps Marika knew about a charming dance. Perhaps Tanith seduced Rykard just as he seduced her. And snakes can form spirals with their bodies. The dual spiral that the Hornsent worship is a lot like the mating dance, and combat dance, of serpents.
Don't forget about the Formless Serpents, one of the more obscure groups in Elden Ring, that are probably related to the people that once lived in Gelmir. You find a few serpent arrows in Belurat in the poisoned lake with Man-Flies.
@@dominicmarazita8103 Interesting. I am so used to playing vers 1.00 that I had never readthe flavor text of the Serpent Bow and its mention of Formless Serpents.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 Some snails also drop serpent arrows, which implies a connection, possibly that that arrows are made from the snail's fangs. Snails, who are also obviously serpentine, are fairly mysterious. The fact that some are capable of summoning spirit ashes is odd in of itself.
@@dominicmarazita8103 I agree. Snails are also crepuscular creatures, often coming out at Twilight, or the Gloaming. From could have made them more snail-like, similar to the magma slugs, but intentionally chose snakes as the motif. The Spiritcaller snails can summon a Crucible knight, Godskins, and Okina's apprentice, all of which deal with the Crucible or the Formless Mother (who I think represents the Crucible). The Crucible Current is like two Snakes mating in a spiral.
With all this animalistic chaos its no wonder creating a golden order was the best course for the lands between. Some semblance of order amidst all this chaos.
I thought that since we don't see the jars being filled in the base game, the jars we see are the ones from the shadow land being given a proper burial in TLB. Thinking about it now it doesn't make a lot of sense because the minor erdtrees only came after the shattering, and we do see some instances of warriors being added to them, but it's so weird that the practice was taken up due mainly to the trauma attached to it.
Since you said jar so many times you should try a jarwreight (wrieght?) playthru. Pot helm, fur raiment, radahn boots/gloves, companion jar, beastman jar shield, great club/large club/ club, throw pots, summon the soldjars and be the caveman you were meant to be.
If you think back on the concept of grafting, and the way that tree tissue is different from animal tissue, then how marika's people's melding properties work makes perfect sense. They're spiritual tree people, who can become trees. Tree tissue can be grafted with any other tree, and the cells merge together because they don't differentiate. Animal tissue is different. Only stem cells have the ability to become anything. Marika's people (including all the way to Godrick) have the ability to graft with anything else. This made them highly prized because that means they can bind two different things (people, concepts, power, etc) together. Unfortunately, if the binding material isn't perfectly neutral/inert, then it taints the mixture. This is alluded to in the search for pure gold, or unalloyed gold, and the divestment of anything that could add impurities to the mixture. Then, the mixture is heated in a crucible, which is literally any container of life/death elements. Jars, big holes, trees, mass graves, divine gates shaped like cups, you name it, if it's a cup it's a crucible.
I like how just like the grandmother, Marika too ended up perishing within a tree. But my question is, how did the grandmother die like that in the tree? It almost feels like she was blocking/protecting something, and why wasn’t she put into a jar as well? 🤔
I think Marika took the original purpose of the jars and repurposed them into something more positive once she became a God and established her Golden Order. Instead of being used as a form of torture, they are used as part of the cycle that perpetuates eternal life under the Golden Order. It's interesting that the jars themselves in the DLC seem like pretty cool dudes (as all living jars do) despite their cursed innards.
Just what if? Marika perfected sainthood in the Jar and the other body used to fuze with her is Radagon. Then they passed the traits to offsprings. Horn ancestry of Mohg and Morgot has to be from the Radagon genes. Also he requires a Lord to be a God. In the cinematic, it was only Marika, meaning even before Godhood, he was also Radagon. There was also no mention of a ruling Lord on the DLC.
The Crucible was an ancient seedbed of life that created powerful Chimera-like beings in hornsent society. Perhaps the jarring practice was the hornsent's attempts to mimic the Crucible's power to create these beings who appear to be a fusion of creatures. A mini crucible is created within the jar that may one day birth a divine being. This could explain why the Numen are long lived and seldom born. They may be artificial beings, and the product of this jarring experiment on the Shaman people. The jars in the lands between may be part of Marika's own experiments in an attempt to create more Numen, or grant a better life to the Shaman flesh amalgamations. Their research in the Black Keep couldn't reverse the damge, so they completed the proccess for a select few and attempted to give them a peaceful life in Jarburg.
If marika being a jar saint is correct, maybe that has some explanation for radagon, she was created from multiple people melded together so whats to say they cant be split back apart in some way
The Hornsent inquisitors were the ones who invaded Midra’s manse, slaughtered his servants and impaled him with the Greatsword of Damnation, inflicting constant and eternal agony.
@edmarcamy thats true, but some extrapolation as to where Marika separated from them, and what knowledge he and his wife found/ their connection to the shaman village so far has been lacking analysis here on youtube.
I interpreted the dialogue in the story trailer to mean when Marika became a god, the Erdtree was born, and so too was the Scadutree. An unforeseen consequence, as the Two Fingers don't actually know what they are doing. The 2 fingers seduced Marika with godhood. Not sure what the betrayal is, but Marika abandoning Messmer is definitely a horrible betrayal.
Something i have to wonder is, if the jarring process is supposed to create a Saint, does that relate with the other 2 named Saints in St. Trina and Romina, Saint of the Bud? Maybe we should check the JP text and see if the same term is used in all 3 contexts.
She also betrayed her own kind. The greater will banished the nox to the caves giving a false night sky. Also going against their the lord aka lord of night.
Great origin but this still doesn’t erase or absolve or justify all the terrible things that marika has done to the omen who are both descendants of and those cursed by the hornsent and many others that were killed in the main game in name of her and her golden order. Never get that twisted!
I definitely read it as a cautionary tale that provides more motivation to kill miquella. Both of them went through a lot of injustice and hardship and want to make new worlds as gods to address those problems. It is inevitable, however, that ascending to godhood will corrupt/trap the god in question. Would miquella go to the same genocidal ends to enforce his age of compassion? Probably.
I guarantee you that there were Hornsent who were unaware or even against their more grotesque and cruel practices such as the Greater Potentate who made the cookbooks to craft pot stuffed with things other than living beings after being disturbed by the practices in the village.
But they didn't work to stop the process. Probably because it was engrained in their culture. For all we know jars were used as labor saving devices and the primary pro-jar argument was, "But what about the economy?"
I literally said "Wtf" dropped my head snd shook it once i read the lore . Idk why but, everything about Marika and Omens came rushing in my brain and just got sad . I put the game down,went and made a sandwich (i make hefty ones) and just frantically talked to myself about this situation the whole time.
Maybe the betrayal was the act of becoming a god? The Hornsent seem to be obssessed with divinity so perhaps to them, seeing a person who was only good for jar innards become a god and taking what they thought was theirs would be considered a betrayal.
One question i have is how placidusax ties into all this, he was elden lord in a time before the erdtree, was he lord during the time of the hornsent or was his reign even further ago, making him truly ancient
I thought Marika was a Numen and from a land outside The Lands Between. This place looks to have been part of TLB until Marika sealed it away. Could it be that this village was where she landed and first settled when she came to TLB and not where she was actually born?
14:30 I thought Godrick was a descendant of Godfrey and had no relation to queen marika? Everyone always corrected me back then about how Godfrey was never a child of marika. But I always found it odd because I wondered who Godrick's mother was.
Enia refers to Godrick as a relation to Marika: "Godrick the Grafted was but a distant relation... The runt of the litter, his divine blood sorely diluted. " So, less connected than direct children, but we can definitely view him as part of the golden lineage of Marika+Godfrey
"An uprising rather than a betrayal" While I understand what you mean, i think the kinds of cultures being depicted in game (largely medieval / ancient) really didn't draw that distinction. If you swore an oath of fealty or friendship, and you then rebelled, it would be viewed as treason, imo.
Aren't the horsent obsessed with the crucible? The jars are them creating their own and using the Shamans (is that synonymous with Numens or just a sect of them?) to do it
Hornsents don't deserve any pity. I enjoyed seeing that npc hornsent's despairing visage after beating messmer without summoning him. His Purpose of life was gone.
Its a normal item! Just a bit of a rare drop from an enemy people normally don't kill. Its the Old Aristocrat Cowl and is dropped from the super basic mobs you can find walking around Limgrave (some in Consecrated Snowfield too). Only the ones that are wearing the same green hat will drop it
I think the betrayal was when Marika became a god, and Messmer's war happened before that. She buddied up to the Hornsent with her fingers crossed behind her back, rode higher in politics with Messmer and that's how Messmer had an army, and then murdered a bunch of people to create the divine gate so that she could ascend.
Messmer was certainly crusading after Marika's godhood. He is referred to as like an elder brother to Radahn, so he lived in Lands Between for a while before the crusade
@@MadLuigi Ahh interesting. Any speculation as to how Marika convinced her oppressors to let her become a god? And I wonder how Marika was okay with transcending to a god while standing on the bodies of her own people, while allied with the Hornsent
you think the misbegotten piled up the dead bodies and burnt them as they trying to summon a god? this all very final fantasy 13 and kingdom hearts, was my first thought in the miquella boss fight lol i think the lamenters set is what they going though, like marika b4, now the omen and misbegotten being mistreated on mass, seems when a species gets pushed to the brink they call summon a god, like the frenzied flame and scarlet rot, and most of all the fire giant, i think the shamans did the same in the past mairka last of her people, mabie the betrayal was to marika, they betrayed mirida, makes me think are the shamans and the golden untouchables the same?
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the tragedy of how maddluigi doesn't have his gold plaque yet
FAX THIS IS THE BIGGEST TARGEDY UGHGHGHGHGHGHGHG
This comment made me double check that I was subscribed
@@MadLuigi I was thinking if goderick is part of the golden lineage and Marika had to divest something to become a god thus my theory is the other shamans were known to have flesh that could meld with a lot of stuff so could grafting be a form of melding flesh thus giving the origins of how it came to be
you find child sized jars in the gaols which mean not even babies and children were safe from the hornsent.
That explains their childlike exuberance and dancing... That's sad.
Nah, jarbern or whatever his name is fits diallos inside of him and he’s a small jar.
@tuba3000 yes but he isn't the same type of jar from the shadow realm. The shadow realm jars were used for alive people flayed and put into jars to be melded with numen flesh. The Erdtree jars instead act as transport for already dead bodies to be taken to minor erdtrees and broken so the erdtree avatar may put the bodies on the roots. No torture involved and alot less morbid albeit slightly. So it may be that erdtree pots didn't have specific age groups put inside they just shoved whatever could fit. Which makes sense since most of them are going though battlefields consuming dead soldiers.
@@michaelostergren3516 where does it say that shaman are all numen? "Where Marika first set foot" not born. The shadow realm is not the land of the numen. The shaman village is just where she lived after she arrived and before she ascended.
Shaman Village gives a tragic-ness to Godricks death line: "And one day, we'll return together... To our home, bathed in rays of gold..."
Damn bro that's smart of u
“Bathed in gold” perhaps he meant the realm of shadow
@@adamhunter4120 no its bathed in rays of gold
The moment I enter the Shaman village reading the lore on that edtree healing spell and the ambient music play, it was just pure sadness.
It was a big moment fr
For me it was that exact moment - we need to wipe every single last one of those horned demons ... we are not the same.
@@titanscerw u r just doing the same thing then dumbo
@@MadLuigi nope
@@titanscerw 🤣
I think that Marika’s betrayal had to do with her being a “perfected” saint.
I think being a saint means that you can become a vessel for a god. This probably gave her some new status in their society. She probably used this status to get the Empyrean Grandam or whoever was in charge to let her ascend to godhood.
Now, as a god, she turns around and enacts her vengeance on the people who “helped” elevate her to that status.
That’s the betrayal. The Hornsent were probably like “bro we graciously turned you into a saint and then let you become a god, why would you kill us? We did you a favor.”
And the seduction could be the hornsent's obsession with divinity.
I like this idea
new head canon honestly
Being a saint is following God or being a very good or pure person pretty much a creature or human that's in Order Natural No Evil no Wrongness or wicked mind set pretty much. So i guess she was bless and her peoples was not as they were pretty whicked and doing Evil stuff all the time and so she turn on them and well it's got no better.
Yall looking too much into it. My fav single mom Marika the eternal was a strumpet. 😂
So something to note that I’ve seen JP speakers mention, the original word used for “Shaman Village” is apparently closer to “Miko”, or “Shrine Maiden”. The only time this isn’t consistent is with the “shaman” mentioned on the Greatjar helmet, which does not use the same characters.
Yeaaaaaahhhhh….. they were most likely chopping up priestesses….
Miko's also the in the word used for finger maidens: yubimiko.
Since Melina knows the incantation, that means She knows of the Shaman village and Messmer is clearly the first born. Both got fire magic too. I wish there's more to Melina story
Had a lovely chat with someone over on reddit who was convinced that the Shamans actually consented to being jarred. I question if we played the same game.
Copium for people who REALLY HATE Marika.
lol there is even an infirmary in messmer castle where they are trying to reverse what was done to the shamans.
That completely destroys the story.
What i want to know is whey they were all killed? Why would the hornsent eliminate all of them if they are valuable for thier pot ritual? I wonder if they did it soon after marika became a god as retribution. Which then made marika even angrier.
grown adult with an anime pfp? ofc they argue with randoms on reddit cringe
On a related note, The design of the furnace golems seems to be a sort of twisted karmic retribution towards the Hornsent approved by Messmer and Marika. The shamans were mutilated, then stuffed into jars to become saints by the Hornsent so in response, Marika orders her son Messmer to wage a brutal, genocidal war against the Land of Shadow with his most prominent war machine being the massive furnace golems where the Hornsent themselves are rounded up in droves, dead or alive (but most likely still alive for extra cruelty), to be stuffed in the golems and lit aflame to bring it to life.
Imagine the screams and howls of terror and agony and the smell of burning flesh as the golem surges to life; An instrument of death’s first gasps of “life” brought forth by the deaths of so many within its frame to serve as fuel for the golem as it marches over the land as an instrument of terror, destruction and mockery as it wears the horned mask of the fell god of fire the Hornsent so feared.
That's a great comparison; the other side of the coin to the jar stuffing: golem stuffing
@@MadLuigi Imagine if Orochi was there from WO2 they would ohh my
Marika is a cold b
Kind of similar to what the Omenkillers do to the Omen. At least the mask part
Great video! Love the idea of Marika being a successful 'saint'.
Truly how strange how Marika's background has a lot of similarities to the Emperor from 40k's old lore. The Shamans in 40k were psykers who would reincarnate upon death but over time the Warp (place where Psychic power comes from) was starting to become more tumultuous and dangerous (Chaos Gods) so the reincarnation was getting harder. Eventually the shamans pooled together, committed ritual suicide and combined into the one known as the 'Emperor'..an extraordinarily powerful psychic being who would eventually unite Mankind and protect it from the predations of the Warp.
Also, Marika steps through the Divine Gate and sometime later has 'Demi-God' children that each seem to have different aspects of life or Outer Gods. The Emperor steps through a gate on Molech and is suggested to have gained knowledge from the Chaos Gods in a pact (which he goes back on and 'betrays the Gods') but this enables him to create 20 great generals called 'Primarchs' which, like the demi-gods seem to have different aspects too.
I know almost nothing about 40k but cool to see the similarities!
Such a cool idea that's sadly no longer canon
Another few things I found interesting were the Highland Warriors and their bear fighting habits smack of Godfrey. While Marika was from the Shaman village I think young Hourah Loux lived among the Highlanders. The Highlander set looks like an precursor to the armor Godfrey wears and the beast claws fighting style is very much Hourah Loux. Fighting giant rune bears with his bear hands growing up would certainly explain his... everything?
Not a big deal but the Death Knight armor actually looks inspired by Godfrey's Lord armor. They wield axes on top of that, this implies to me that perhaps Godwyn admired his father as much as Radahn, since he dressed his personal guard like him.
cringe weirdo godfrey wasnt from there.... are u brainded
I wonder if that specific Hornsent who said these cruel words to the shamans in Bonny Village lived long enough to be subject to similar cruelties by Messmer’s crusaders when they invaded.
I don’t know how long Hornsent lived but assuming he lived to see the crusade take place, I can only imagine it shifting from him whipping shamans with tooth whips and shoving them in jars like it's an ordinary day to him being captured by the crusaders before enduring days of being beaten and branded by serpent flails while being yelled at with slurs and obscenities by them such as being “Graceless scum” who’s only purpose is to be hunted, dehorned, impaled and burned before being forced to march alongside fellow Hornsent who’ve been rounded up, beaten, branded and dehorned to a furnace golem that has yet to come to life.
As the Hornsent are being pushed and crammed inside the golem to the point where’s it’s getting hard to breathe, they are given a speech by a Black Knight captain who says that though they are graceless vermin with no place in the order, their lives will at least serve one purpose: as kindling for their holy crusade.
The Hornsent suddenly reminisces on those shamans back in Bonny Village and realizes that he has become a victim to the same cruelties he inflicted on them.
However, he has no time to think of his current predicament as the crusaders set the golem aflame and the screams of countless Hornsent and the stench of their burning flesh fill the air as the golem comes to life.
So ends the life of one Hornsent among thousands, now used to fuel a lifeless machine of death and murder as it marches onto the battlefield. And so, the crusade continues.
Crazy...That's the beauty of duality, The one who tortured is now the one getting tortured. Him not realizing what the shamans must have felt to him understanding how cruel they actually were. Him and all the other hornsent must have really realized how wrong and cruel they were. Maybye thats why the greater will chose marika? so that she could be the one to enlighten them.
@@Samples12 and in return realize what she becomes, she became the hornsent just in another form
@@theenderdestruction2362 did she tho? I mean she did exile any creature reminicent of the hornseng and or crucible and she did cut of the horns of baby omens. But was really as cruel as the ways of the hornsent? But i get what u mean. Perhaps both the hornsent and marika were destined to fail so that we the tarnished could bring about a new age.
@@Samples12 Baby Omens horns were cut off. Imagine forcing a parent to do that for your own traumas' sake and then making anyone who has grace and is under your order hate and despise anyone not apart of it or has grace something you control, imagine making it so only the elites omen children can live but in the sewers below, imagine using countless people just to make your own, what the hornsent did was horrible, horrible indeed, but what marika did was just as bad in another flavor, and dont forget the rune of death was removed meaning those hornsent corpses we find on fire golums are most likely still alive and in extreame amount of pain and their bodies are so burnt they cant speak, marika didnt just become the hornsent she fucking one uped em in cruelty, and not to mention she left her own son alone to be the most viled and hated thing in the lands of shadow and earsed it all from history, the tarnished were supposedly summon back by marika but i feel like the tarnished of no renown might have been summoned by the greater will itself, perhaps even though its been long sense gone then our tarnished was a last resort a sorta nuclear option sense in lore either the tarnishef no difffed malakith or worse he tanked destined death either way the tarnished of no renown almost seems like the nuclear option that and we mabye a demi god cause from memory somewhere miazaky said we wernt a human i could be entire wrong and spreading false information but yeah... seriously though, marika just basically one upped the hornsent by doing even more heinous shit cause, like i said, the hornsent were horrible, horrible beings but marika did everyone dirty cause imagine having to habe your child more then likely killed cause of a curse placed upon them and if they survive their in agonizing pain and you indoctrinated those same parents into hating their own child at that point trauma response means jack shit and you should be crucifed
@@Samples12Even besides the crusade itself and damning half the continent including her own devoted son to the Realm of Shadows Marika also sent Godfrey on a brutal conquest involving the genocide of the Fire Giants, the mass incarceration and enslavement of Omen and Misbegotten, a violent expansion into sovereign territories like Liurnia and Limgrave, the upending of established societies like those of The Storm Lord and the Ancient Dragons; so yeah, she's at least as bad as the Hornsent.
Tranquility ahead, also saddness ahead.
I think Marika is a tragic character, and i feel like the Minor Erdtree incantation is very telling to who she was. She just wanted to heal herself and those around her from the tragedies of the world she lived in. The blame is rarely placed on Radagon, the Order side of her. A lot of people forget that the Age of Plenty was before the Age of Order. The Age of Plenty was notably when Godfrey was the Elden Lord and its also noted that the Erdtree wasn't ethereal, but an actual tree that would drop sap and actually provide for those that lived under it. But even during the Age of Plenty, Radagon was still a part of Marika and i feel like Radagon made decisions during these ages through Marika that lead to more "order"
Also explay why after Radagon came from Liurnia to be with Marika, the three stopped spreading seeds and started to feed under the struggle
What really pisses me off is how the Hornsent act like the world's most oppressed and victimized people when the consequences of their own actions slapped them in the face.
Like when a small kid pushes another kid and the second that pushed kid pushes back the first kid runs to an adult crying about being pushed.
The hornsent give me a freaking headache. As for the betrayal I personally read it as the hornsent had plans for the shamans and as soon as Marika survived and reached godhood (I think godhood and sainthood are two very different things here) they saw it as a betrayal on her part as she deviated from their plans. Too much bad blood between both parties for either of them to ever tolerate the other.
Marika's a monster but she wasn't born a monster, she was made into one. Her unresolved traumas extended to literally everyone else including her own children therefore causing so much more misery. Count Ymir said it best: "The roots are rotted" (paraphrasing here).
Yeah. I went into the Shadow Realm expecting to hate Marika’s apparent religious crusade and her seemingly smug, superior son. Once her motives and origin became clear, I was enraged at the supposed “victims.” I still despise Marika, but she wouldn’t have existed were it not for the degeneracy of the Hornsent civilization. And, unlike her, they have no apparent Freudian excuse. They’re just evil and devoid of all self-awareness.
I much prefer this version of the "corruption" of Marika. I find it much more compelling than some overly literal magical corruption. I feel the same way about Miquella's mind control as well, a very boring way of exploring Miquella's influence in my opinion. With the Haligtree it seemed like those who followed Miquella did so out of sincere reverence, whether well founded or not. Overall I find the DLC lore all over the place...
After understanding Marikas lore i felt for it , i believe that its justified to burn the world where such cruelty exists, unfortunately such cruelty exists in real world too
Exactly this, the Hornsent plead victimhood when their crimes include
-Torturing people with whips lined with rotten teeth
- Chopping up bodies and jamming them into jars to meld together in an agonising process
- Torturing the shamans and trying to meld them with other beings in the name of their crazed beliefs. Only to result in a painful amalgamation of bodies that cry out in pain.
Then when one of their victims becomes a god they’re surprised that she exacts vengeance?
@@kristapszile1704i'd argue that burning the world still isn't justified where many innocents just want to live in peace. Want to find love and happiness.
I do wonder if perhaps Radagon really was a separate person who Marika fell in love with and decided to meld with, using her perfected shaman body. Its possible St. Trina and Miquella were the same way.
Holy shit...
I've been thinking this too. They represent the alchemical Rebis, or divine hermaphrodite found in a lot of alchemy texts. That's been made clear by the story. Maybe they weren't always fused and that happened when they finally got together.
Also, the ability to fuse flesh sounds a lot like what happens with the grafted, doesn't it?
Yeah because i said how did they have kids if that was the case.
@antigrav6004 Grafting is unholy and usually forced upon someone, whereas the melding seems almost medical in the way its positively received and perceived.
I think they're both similar fundamentally, but in my personal opinion I don't think they have any real connection to one another
Perhaps they were both shamans? It would explain how they are able to switch bodies so easily.
I think the "seduction" refers to a pact made with Two Fingers by her village. I also think it was the Two Fingers that introduced Marika to Order, and probably the Hornsent's Gate of Divinity was used to summon the Elden Beast, of which Marika became the vessel. But I like a lot your idea of Marika as the successful "saint." This would explain why the Hornsent would have accepted her rule, despite her shrouding their land in shadow. Perhaps it wasn't until the omen curse started to afflict her children that she determined to cleanse the Land of Shadow of the Hornsent. We also know the Hornsent fear the Fell God, and perhaps they were allies during the war of the giants, while aspects of the crucible were still valorised by the Golden Order.
It's mentioned that the crucible knights weren't initially villified when they served Godfrey but came to be hated. Also the leadership of the Black Knights use crucible incantations, despite being in conflict with a largely crucible-based culture. The black keep also is protected by a Golden Hippo that uses the crucible too. There was definitely a deal of time between Marika becoming a god and creating the land of shadow and when she ordered the crusade, supported by several pieces of evidence. I think Marika creating the land of shadow to seal off the hornsent and as a place to suppress death was probably negatively seen by the hornsent but not enough for them to fully hate Marika. As the Erdtree's age of plenty ended and the Erdtree became a religious object and golden order fundamentalism started to form under Radagon, people began to hate the crucible in the Lands Between, and probably the bigger threats to the Golden Order like the Ancient Dragons, Fire Giants, and probably the Nox and Godskins were defeated by that point, so it would have been easy to rile up the Erdtree faithful on such a brutal crusade on the civilization of their forebears compared to earlier, which was probably seen as a huge betrayal by the hornsent. And it was after the crusade that Marika sealed entry to the Lands of Shadow and cut Messmer and his followers loose.
This is the very best Lore analysis done on Marika's nature and tragedy I've seen among a dozen in a month, this channel globally deserve to be far more followed, and REALLY BRING more than the others. Pertinent aesthetic Lore investigations here instead of absurdities projected on the base Lore with psychology/anthropology taints. Fantasies can be ok, however the (Miyazaki's secret) uncovered focused Truth is amazing.
My sympathy for this monstrous woman has grown. The most severe abusers, are often themselves victims and extreme abuse.
Yeah I think thats a good way of putting it. Marika did horrible things, but I can still have sympathy for what she went through
"Take care that when fighting monsters, one does not become a monster. For when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares also into you."
@@ravendelacour1917 Yes their is no Excuse
Why is Marika a monster?
@@jamaledwards8118 Genocide of Hornsent people, albinaurics, fire Giants, mechants and other people
Its interesting how Marika sought to destroy the hornsent and their culture, but considered it appropriate to keep some cultural traditions, such as tree worship and the use of jars. Reminds me about how other Religions often appropriated aspects of cultures that were incorporated or subjugated.
Yoooo why didn’t it cross my mind once that Marika actually became a Saint from the pot! 😮 could that explain her duality and even why she has fire giant, serpent and horn sent connections since she is made from multiple beings?
now i see why she didn't like her twins that where cursed to look like hornsent💀
People being stuffed in jars has a comical undertone. But is probably the most evil practice in the whole game
Fighting Horsent during Leda along their allies fight just makes you realize or maybe think, about his words.
“Marika redeem our clan”
When I found this area, I remember thinking "It's nice that in a land as horrific and scarred as the Land of Shadow is, a place like this still exists within it. Calm, serene, peaceful"
Then I found the lock of hair.
The sheer Weight of the realization of where I was hit me so hard, you have no idea.
The statues of Marika have their heads cut off by Messmer & his army - it's because Marika abandoned them and they cut the heads off her statues symbolically
EDIT: And more for you regarding the jars in Marika's age you reference at the end. Take a look at the Festive Grease's item description to see that Marika allowed some practices from the previous age to continue on in her own age. Godfrey did have his Crucible Knights, after all. The jar practices continued on in Marika's age, but in a different way. Likely taking the remains of fallen warriors (possibly from the coliseum culture that her and Godfrey set up) and using them as fertilizer for the Erdtree and minor erdtrees
Marika assigned 2 Tree sentinel to safe guard the area says everything
Brilliant video! This answers so many questions I've had throughout both the base games and the DLC
This was a great jar. Good work, loved a lot of the takes here.
i like to think that marika was okay with the living jar coming on land between, is because it simply remind her of her people.
that might be why she take care of them and most of them (in lore) is pretty cheerful and peaceful creature
Another amazing video! About the seduction and betrayal, I think that Marika was an empyrean that gathered forces and fought together with the hornsent against the giants and the fell god. After all, the crucible knights were part of Godfrey's army and it's said that the hornsent fear the fell god. That could be the seduction (destroy the fell god together) and the betrayal, since Marika would then attack and destroy the hornsent after that, reaching the gates of divinity and becoming a god. The thing is that we have to assume that Marika was not a god yet before defeating the giants. There is dialogue with the hornsent Grandam showing that she knew Marika and she was an empyrean too, so maybe she was supposed to be the next god, since the gates of divinity were in the power of the hornsent, and Marika betrayed her.
All the statues of Marika within the Lands Between depict her with her braid cut off. But it looks like the statues within the Lands of Shadow depict her with her braid still in tact, implying they were very likely made before Mesmer's Crusade.
One thing that still does not sit right with me however is the Minor Erdtree in the Shaman Village and it's invocation, because the actual Erdtree is said not to be made by the Golden Order, but adopted from the pre-existing tree that had ties to the crucible. The Golden Glow of the Erdtree however is heavily implied to be more akin to a Fungus taking over the tree and its roots, which can be seen in-game by the fungal-like strands of gold in the upper branches of the erdtree, and by the fact that mushrooms (the fruiting bodies of fungal networks) have a golden glow.
One explenation for this can be found within the item description of the Minor Erdtree Incantation, which specifically mentions it being an "Illusion of an Erdtree", which could suggest that what sets the incantation apart from the Minor Erdtree we find in the Shaman Village, is that that incantation was cast on a pre-existing sapling. Thus, using the term "Illusion" as a way of signaling that the/any Erdtree is only the illusion of a tree, which would support the Endoparasitic Fungi theory.
I feel like just the wording "Illusion of an Erdtree" is a bit too weak to support this theory, so if anyone has any other lore sources that would support this, I'd love to hear them.
The fact that the jar village seeks a potentate, makes me think some hornsent were mixed in. And the new jarberg is like a lingering past life memory seeping through the flesh, hense the similarities in customs.
Blew my mind with the flesh implications and the grafting. The whole concept of grafting trees is like a bastardisation of the beliefs of the shamans. With the forced graft, for selfish gain opposed to the grandmother in the tree who seemed to be more harmonious with nature.
To apoint even miquella could of been inspired by this with his haligtree.
Mind blown. Nice work dude! Keep it up!
This whole story is quite Jar-ring
OH! The ending of this video just made something have MUCH more sense! It concerned the Jars in the Main Game. When going through the Jars in the Land of Shadow, it was a torturous punishment, NOT a rite of honor or something willingly done! Maybe a Potentate, who was actually kind, or grew horrorified by the Land of Shadows practice of Jarification, left those Lands, came to the Lands Between, and began the much kinder, loving, and warrior's honor culture of the Jars we know and love! Possibly, THAT Potentate is the very one Jar-Bairn speaks of, who made THEIR kind, and put them in a far-away village to try to keep them safe! I so confused at first, and the ending of this vid, I was like:'OH! I get it now!' Thank You!
I think the thing I'm most confused by is Marika, and all the ways she has attained more power, the Elden Ring, the Divine Gate, being merged as a shaman. What order did these event's happen in? Which one made her a god, and what is the significance of each one? Is each one marked by a different Elden Lord? It feels like seeing the process of Miquella becoming a god is supposed to clarify things, but it makes me more confused because it seems contradictory to what we knew about Marika in the base game. I'm starting to wonder if anything in the base game was actually Marika's doing, or did Radagon do it on her behalf/ as her after she ascended to godhood.
I think the entirety of Marika's reign was a power struggle for her God hood against the elden beast and then Radagon which is a battle she eventually lost.
Personally, what makes sense to me is that she made a pact with the Two Fingers by her village to unite her Gold with Order, and used the Divine Gate to summon the Elden Beast and reform the Elden Ring.
There is a curious qualification in the Elden Stars description that says: "the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would *later become* the Elden Ring." It seems to me that the Elden Beast may not have actually been involved in the Elden Ring of the Ancient Dragons, and that Marika ascended to Godhood around the time the Dragons had a similar "shattering" war, where Bayle revolted against Placidusax. The Fingers made an appeal to Marika to reform the Elden Ring, and they used the Divine Gate of the Hornsent to summon the Elden Beast, who became the Elden Ring of which Marika is the vessel.
This makes sense to me as the Fingers would be motivated to renew contact with the Greater Will, from whom they had been severed, and Marika would be motivated to free her people from oppression and rule over a Golden Age of Life.
Great video!
Thanks so much!
I wonder (given the trees emblazoned on the warrior jar lids in the lands between), perhaps it was Marika herself who started the practice of creating the living warrior jars.
A kind of taking a nightmare from her past and turning it into something wholesome. A strange form of healing. I heard someone else speculate such possibilities. I like the thought the more I ruminate on it.
Seriously, I wanted very badly for the DLC to demonstrate that Marika was a redemptive figure, and as usual, FROM does not disappoint.
She still remains a mass-murderer, but at least a cute one now 😂
I like the Bonny village theory. The jar industry seems much larger than a village with two buildings. Maybe they forced un-jarred Shamans to reproduce in the gaols.
This video finally answers all the questions j had
Love this game so much and learning that the lore of the game is about trauma and its effects on people and their actions are amazing
my head canon are marika sided with hornsent thus betraying her own kind, the shaman. maybe she do that to infiltrate and destroy hornsent from within, but at the time she's become a god, its too late, the shaman village is no more. and thats what i think her confession to the grandmother. confession of the betrayer
I've always wished that we had the option or ability to speak with Marika. I was disappointed when i found out we couldn't. I was hoping that in the dlc we would be able to in some way, shape or form. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. Seeing Marika crucified broke my heart and a horrific punishment and cruel fate. Finding out her backstory just makes me even more sad that we can't save her.
the snake skin found in bonny village is the same model in the volcano manor at the caseoh boss fight room.
I thought that was Rykard snake
I hadn't made the connection between shamans and trees before, but now that you mention it miquella was using his blood to grow the haligtree, and the crucible(where all life blends together) was stated to be the primordial form of the erdtree. Perhaps the shamans are the crucible itself, and Marika grew the erdtree using her blood to fufill a similar purpose for her own people, that would probably go some way to explaining why the hornsent would commit atrocities on such a scale to an undeserving sect of people for the sake of criminal rehabilitation. Although this theory doesn't take into account the scadutree if I remember correctly it's the shadow of the erdtree so it may still be plausible
Good video and I find your story really correct as they mentioned about the seduction and the betrayal. But what the people did Ftet she came as an Saint from the jar is not known
I noticed at the divine gates the hornsent corpses are also fused together like they would commit to the shaman people in the jarring rituals.
I like the idea of the Hornsent making Marika a god. Maybe radagon was fused with her in a jar, and that explains the dual nature of them.
I see the lands between jarring practices to be more attuned to assimilating another previous culture into the new regime through a modified version of the custom.
Marika did nothing wrong. P.S the Japanese translation of shaman village is apparently Shrine maiden village or miko village. Miko essentially meaning female shamans in english but the female connotations in japanese is very big. Miko are female shamans who are shrine maidens who take care of shrines, heal, bless and guide people. They also perform rituals so as to convey the will of the god(s) which is very interesting.
The snakeskin likely belonged to the Great Serpent. We know the Godskins and Rykard are connected. Rykard devours champions to add their power to his own. It is similar to the Jar culture of Bonny village, only Rykard himself is the vessel. The village of Dominula skins and burns men, piling them up so that the cycle of Death and Rebirth can restart anew (halted by the removal of Destined Death), and we find a Godskin Apostle at Dominula and a Noble at Eiglay. Clearly, the Great Serpent practiced human sacrifice (per the Serpent sword), and the Serpent uses Poison just like the Fly-Men of the Ailing Village. The Beastmen carry Jar shields and we see plenty of Lions with Omen horns, meaning they were all under the obedience of the Order that came before Marika (as evidenced by the Lion Dancer).
I think Marika seduced and betrayed the Great Serpent, which is why Messmer is a vessel of the Abyssal Serpent and why he was cast out to the Shadowlands. Rykard knows this and, so, embraced the Blasphemous Serpent to mock the stolen power and the foundation that Marika used to make her new Order. Mesmerizing snakes (or charming them) is an old practice, and the twirling of the Dancer of Ranah is akin to mesmerism. Perhaps Marika knew about a charming dance. Perhaps Tanith seduced Rykard just as he seduced her. And snakes can form spirals with their bodies. The dual spiral that the Hornsent worship is a lot like the mating dance, and combat dance, of serpents.
Don't forget about the Formless Serpents, one of the more obscure groups in Elden Ring, that are probably related to the people that once lived in Gelmir. You find a few serpent arrows in Belurat in the poisoned lake with Man-Flies.
@@dominicmarazita8103 Interesting. I am so used to playing vers 1.00 that I had never readthe flavor text of the Serpent Bow and its mention of Formless Serpents.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 Some snails also drop serpent arrows, which implies a connection, possibly that that arrows are made from the snail's fangs. Snails, who are also obviously serpentine, are fairly mysterious. The fact that some are capable of summoning spirit ashes is odd in of itself.
@@dominicmarazita8103 I agree. Snails are also crepuscular creatures, often coming out at Twilight, or the Gloaming. From could have made them more snail-like, similar to the magma slugs, but intentionally chose snakes as the motif. The Spiritcaller snails can summon a Crucible knight, Godskins, and Okina's apprentice, all of which deal with the Crucible or the Formless Mother (who I think represents the Crucible). The Crucible Current is like two Snakes mating in a spiral.
@@falgalhutkinsmarzcal3962 You forgot about the snails in the Haligtree branches that summon crystalians.
Purge all the hornsent!
lets not lol
Clam down Mr genocider
With all this animalistic chaos its no wonder creating a golden order was the best course for the lands between. Some semblance of order amidst all this chaos.
I thought that since we don't see the jars being filled in the base game, the jars we see are the ones from the shadow land being given a proper burial in TLB.
Thinking about it now it doesn't make a lot of sense because the minor erdtrees only came after the shattering, and we do see some instances of warriors being added to them, but it's so weird that the practice was taken up due mainly to the trauma attached to it.
You can go behind the village and get on top of Rabbath’s Rise and collect a bell barring and see Ana’s doll
Since you said jar so many times you should try a jarwreight (wrieght?) playthru. Pot helm, fur raiment, radahn boots/gloves, companion jar, beastman jar shield, great club/large club/ club, throw pots, summon the soldjars and be the caveman you were meant to be.
If you think back on the concept of grafting, and the way that tree tissue is different from animal tissue, then how marika's people's melding properties work makes perfect sense. They're spiritual tree people, who can become trees. Tree tissue can be grafted with any other tree, and the cells merge together because they don't differentiate. Animal tissue is different. Only stem cells have the ability to become anything.
Marika's people (including all the way to Godrick) have the ability to graft with anything else. This made them highly prized because that means they can bind two different things (people, concepts, power, etc) together. Unfortunately, if the binding material isn't perfectly neutral/inert, then it taints the mixture. This is alluded to in the search for pure gold, or unalloyed gold, and the divestment of anything that could add impurities to the mixture.
Then, the mixture is heated in a crucible, which is literally any container of life/death elements. Jars, big holes, trees, mass graves, divine gates shaped like cups, you name it, if it's a cup it's a crucible.
I like how just like the grandmother, Marika too ended up perishing within a tree. But my question is, how did the grandmother die like that in the tree? It almost feels like she was blocking/protecting something, and why wasn’t she put into a jar as well? 🤔
If grafting really has a relation to the jars, the Godefroy gaol could be explained as an act of disgust in line with the imprisonment of Omens!
I think Marika took the original purpose of the jars and repurposed them into something more positive once she became a God and established her Golden Order. Instead of being used as a form of torture, they are used as part of the cycle that perpetuates eternal life under the Golden Order. It's interesting that the jars themselves in the DLC seem like pretty cool dudes (as all living jars do) despite their cursed innards.
Just what if? Marika perfected sainthood in the Jar and the other body used to fuze with her is Radagon. Then they passed the traits to offsprings. Horn ancestry of Mohg and Morgot has to be from the Radagon genes.
Also he requires a Lord to be a God. In the cinematic, it was only Marika, meaning even before Godhood, he was also Radagon. There was also no mention of a ruling Lord on the DLC.
The word shaman on shaman village and bonny village comes from Japanese word of Miko or shrine maiden
And the shaman in the greatjar is different from the shrine maiden
This explains the grafting exploit
The Crucible was an ancient seedbed of life that created powerful Chimera-like beings in hornsent society. Perhaps the jarring practice was the hornsent's attempts to mimic the Crucible's power to create these beings who appear to be a fusion of creatures. A mini crucible is created within the jar that may one day birth a divine being.
This could explain why the Numen are long lived and seldom born. They may be artificial beings, and the product of this jarring experiment on the Shaman people. The jars in the lands between may be part of Marika's own experiments in an attempt to create more Numen, or grant a better life to the Shaman flesh amalgamations. Their research in the Black Keep couldn't reverse the damge, so they completed the proccess for a select few and attempted to give them a peaceful life in Jarburg.
The shedded snake skin is the same model as the god devouring serpent idk how people miss that the head shape is so distinct.
If marika being a jar saint is correct, maybe that has some explanation for radagon, she was created from multiple people melded together so whats to say they cant be split back apart in some way
I lost all sympathy for the hornsent after finding out the truth. They are bigger monsters than any boss in the game.
U can still be sympathetic to the genocided Hornsent. One genocide does not justify another
@@MadLuigi it doesn’t justify another, that’s true, but if the hornsent hadn’t done theirs, then marika would’ve likely never done hers
I would love to see how this connects to Midra and the abyssal woods.
The Hornsent inquisitors were the ones who invaded Midra’s manse, slaughtered his servants and impaled him with the Greatsword of Damnation, inflicting constant and eternal agony.
@edmarcamy thats true, but some extrapolation as to where Marika separated from them, and what knowledge he and his wife found/ their connection to the shaman village so far has been lacking analysis here on youtube.
I interpreted the dialogue in the story trailer to mean when Marika became a god, the Erdtree was born, and so too was the Scadutree. An unforeseen consequence, as the Two Fingers don't actually know what they are doing. The 2 fingers seduced Marika with godhood. Not sure what the betrayal is, but Marika abandoning Messmer is definitely a horrible betrayal.
Something i have to wonder is, if the jarring process is supposed to create a Saint, does that relate with the other 2 named Saints in St. Trina and Romina, Saint of the Bud? Maybe we should check the JP text and see if the same term is used in all 3 contexts.
She also betrayed her own kind. The greater will banished the nox to the caves giving a false night sky. Also going against their the lord aka lord of night.
Great origin but this still doesn’t erase or absolve or justify all the terrible things that marika has done to the omen who are both descendants of and those cursed by the hornsent and many others that were killed in the main game in name of her and her golden order. Never get that twisted!
I definitely read it as a cautionary tale that provides more motivation to kill miquella. Both of them went through a lot of injustice and hardship and want to make new worlds as gods to address those problems. It is inevitable, however, that ascending to godhood will corrupt/trap the god in question. Would miquella go to the same genocidal ends to enforce his age of compassion? Probably.
I guarantee you that there were Hornsent who were unaware or even against their more grotesque and cruel practices such as the Greater Potentate who made the cookbooks to craft pot stuffed with things other than living beings after being disturbed by the practices in the village.
But they didn't work to stop the process. Probably because it was engrained in their culture. For all we know jars were used as labor saving devices and the primary pro-jar argument was, "But what about the economy?"
It would’ve likely never happened if the hornsent didn’t do what they did though.
It's a video game. Never get that twisted!
I literally said "Wtf" dropped my head snd shook it once i read the lore . Idk why but, everything about Marika and Omens came rushing in my brain and just got sad .
I put the game down,went and made a sandwich (i make hefty ones) and just frantically talked to myself about this situation the whole time.
Maybe the betrayal was the act of becoming a god? The Hornsent seem to be obssessed with divinity so perhaps to them, seeing a person who was only good for jar innards become a god and taking what they thought was theirs would be considered a betrayal.
What if grafting in hints back and represents the crucible
One question i have is how placidusax ties into all this, he was elden lord in a time before the erdtree, was he lord during the time of the hornsent or was his reign even further ago, making him truly ancient
What were the gold strands marika removed from something bloody in the trailer?
The statue in the tree, and then Marika being crucified ( statue'd in the erd tree )
I thought Marika was a Numen and from a land outside The Lands Between. This place looks to have been part of TLB until Marika sealed it away. Could it be that this village was where she landed and first settled when she came to TLB and not where she was actually born?
Is there any evidence that Marika didn't sellout her people to the Hornsent? I mean, that could've been her 'confession' to the Grandmother.
I'am wondering if the big inquesitors (the huge ones) are maybe this saints. From their look they kinda look like this jar people.
Frigg are they really not gonna give us anything about her 'betrayal'?
Grafting :0 representing 15:47
The minor erdtrees only sprouted after the shattering of the elden ring.
14:30 I thought Godrick was a descendant of Godfrey and had no relation to queen marika? Everyone always corrected me back then about how Godfrey was never a child of marika. But I always found it odd because I wondered who Godrick's mother was.
Enia refers to Godrick as a relation to Marika: "Godrick the Grafted was but a distant relation... The runt of the litter, his divine blood sorely diluted. " So, less connected than direct children, but we can definitely view him as part of the golden lineage of Marika+Godfrey
@@MadLuigi I see
Reminds me of Made in the abyss
"An uprising rather than a betrayal"
While I understand what you mean, i think the kinds of cultures being depicted in game (largely medieval / ancient) really didn't draw that distinction.
If you swore an oath of fealty or friendship, and you then rebelled, it would be viewed as treason, imo.
The statue in the tree does look like Marika though
Aren't the horsent obsessed with the crucible? The jars are them creating their own and using the Shamans (is that synonymous with Numens or just a sect of them?) to do it
This would also explain Marika's severe hatred of it
Hornsents don't deserve any pity.
I enjoyed seeing that npc hornsent's despairing visage after beating messmer without summoning him. His Purpose of life was gone.
but he will fight with you again in the enir ilim, he still has one purpose that's helping Miquelle godhood ascendence
@@boyuan588 And he will fail in that too. He will die knowing he failed in everything he did
Soo what are the jars we see in the land between?
I wonder if the father of messmer/melina has to do anything with the original sin/seduction of Marika… idk tho
The hat you wear, is that a custom mod, or an item in the game?
Its a normal item! Just a bit of a rare drop from an enemy people normally don't kill. Its the Old Aristocrat Cowl and is dropped from the super basic mobs you can find walking around Limgrave (some in Consecrated Snowfield too). Only the ones that are wearing the same green hat will drop it
I think the betrayal was when Marika became a god, and Messmer's war happened before that. She buddied up to the Hornsent with her fingers crossed behind her back, rode higher in politics with Messmer and that's how Messmer had an army, and then murdered a bunch of people to create the divine gate so that she could ascend.
Messmer was certainly crusading after Marika's godhood. He is referred to as like an elder brother to Radahn, so he lived in Lands Between for a while before the crusade
@@MadLuigi Ahh interesting. Any speculation as to how Marika convinced her oppressors to let her become a god? And I wonder how Marika was okay with transcending to a god while standing on the bodies of her own people, while allied with the Hornsent
I wonder if Marika was Jared and she gained Radagon from it
Everyone making the same video. Poor Marika... Want to give my eyes to Hyetta only to never watch a similar video...
you think the misbegotten piled up the dead bodies and burnt them as they trying to summon a god? this all very final fantasy 13 and kingdom hearts, was my first thought in the miquella boss fight lol
i think the lamenters set is what they going though, like marika b4, now the omen and misbegotten being mistreated on mass, seems when a species gets pushed to the brink they call summon a god, like the frenzied flame and scarlet rot, and most of all the fire giant, i think the shamans did the same in the past mairka last of her people, mabie the betrayal was to marika, they betrayed mirida, makes me think are the shamans and the golden untouchables the same?
Could be gramma empyreon!