Great video! Honestly my favorite extraction shooter was the now defunct The Cycle: Frontier. I got so immersed in that game. It wasn't perfect, but it was the one that sucked me in the most...and I've tried 'em all. However, I still don't think anyone has made the best version of this genre yet. I truly think if a developer can mix the ingredients just right, then it has the potential to be a Hall of Fame'r.
Fav extraction? Kidney stone... Road of pain.... But naw the genre has been done to hell but 9 out of 10 are crap. let the forest fire burn till it's out and start from scratch
PVP is not dead, demand for PVP games may have lessened but they won’t be dead. The forever winter has simply shown that there is a large demand for something different.
Apologies about the ending being cut off. Seems like an issue with TH-cam. If youre wondering what you missed, it was “thanks for watching, and ill see you again next time…” 😂
While other players can make PvP games "good," it's also the other players that can make PvP games awful. It's the toxicity of the communities that have turned me off from PvP games in general even if I do still enjoy some group v group experiences. I'm glad there are developers finally recognizing that there is a market for games that can create a tense, exciting and immersive experience without the toxicity of the "Git gud, carebears! Lol!!" community ruining it.
For me it's how competitive it gets for some peeps. I just wanna chill. Like deadlock. Fun game but since launch I already got mfs headglitchin n crouch spamming me like aight bro I just got off 3 12s at the hospital I dont wanna have to sweat when Im gaming. PvE all the way for me now.
Also, AI can't get upset when it gets killed, or loses the game. It's generally more fun for everyone when it's just the AI getting clowned on instead. I've also noticed that PvE games generally have a much nicer, friendlier community than games that are not. The experience I've had with a game like Deep Rock Galactic is completely different from that of Halo or CoD. There's a sense of community and camaraderie in these games that many PvP shooters seem to lack, if not outright discourage.
I think the main problem with PVP games for the average gamer is that most people who play PvP games only play that PVP game. And the reality is you just can't compete with people who only play one game when you like to play a variety of games. On top of that even if you used to be a sweat who is really high level at one game If you stop playing you will get left behind just like everybody else. So you're kind of stuck in this dilemma between only playing one game and never taking a break or playing a variety of games and settle for being decent even if you have a ton of time in the game.
I am an older fella. All i did back in the day, since HalfLife multiplayer and all of its mods up untill recently was PVP. Even the COD series But. Im a causal and i want environmental depth, completing missions and/or aquiring loot. Devs like 2K's Borderlands, RedBarrels and the Outlast series, 10 Chambers with GTFO and currently FunDog with Forever Winter have pulled me in with the atmsphere. And Arrowhead did well with Helldivers, albeit with some shaky months from the top. I enjoy taking that in and exploring that and escaping the busy day to day many of us have. Jumping in to an hour or two of sweat in MW is the last thing i need after workin my 8 to 5. PvP isnt dead, it has a very focused fan base who have fine tuned muscle memory. That is t for me. Bring on stealth with my teamates, firefights against AI and a good lore base with maybe a stressfull extract. Thats cool with me. Take'r easy everyone.
I've tried over te yrs to get into PVP and other extraction shooters, and they never really were for me as a casual-mainly-single-player-game-type. I have yet to play Witchfire, but I can say The Forever Winter(40ish hours in) has really become something special and fun. It still needs a lot of work, but has already incorporated enough to make me look for to the next raid. Very much looking forward to what awaits down the road.
I play Hunt: Showdown a lot. I think it's one of the most interesting PvP Shooters of all time. I tried Tarkov but it is too frustrating and hardcore and I mostly play PvE only nowadays. I don't have stomach anymore to deal with cheaters. Also, I'd like to remind about Titanfall, which was the first game I remember that introduced not only a 6v6 - reduced number of players - match structure but also enemy bots on every match - taking cues from MOBAS.
I don't think PVE games can ever replicate the thrill that playing against real players brings you because of human's unpredictable nature, but PVE games probably also can't replicate the frustration that playing alongside/against players brings.
Id argue that they fill the same thing in different forms because most pvp games fall into a meta where one or two builds are so strong majority of players will do that instead of the alternative which then just becomes like fighting finely tuned AI NPCs
I like how this video discusses the cooperative extraction genre using Witchfire and The Forever Winter, but references only examples and specifics from Witchfire.
Tarkov is my favorite, but haven't been the biggest fan of the extraction mechanics (bad spawn points, extraction camping, predictable player spawns/predicting enemy movement based on spawns) If tarkov never had pvp, it would still be okay-ish. If tarkov never was an extraction game, it would still be great. It's the deep, interesting mechanics, that promote difficult and impactful decisions. The long term progression with safety nets and backups.(saving gear into hideout, unlocking better stuff) The extreme luck contrast with random chances for loot, situations and conflicts. The requirement of voice chat for teamplay(even in pve), provides socialization. The difficult challenges that are extremely rewarding in the end. The constant updates, new maps, features, additions, that provides something exciting to explore once or twice a year. The fun routine activities and actions that are a delight (fighting scavs, eating, healing, looting, traveling, hoarding, managing hideout, building guns) Extraction mechanic is such a nice addition It adds an excellent ever nearing threat and more spice into the pot with the time limit every raid. The timer method could be replaced with radiation/tiredness mechanic. (forcing players to evacuate a zone or return to safety periodically)
I will push back against the "PvP is always unique" argument... or even "PvP can be more unique from moment to moment comparatively to PvE" (if there were such argument made) for one: PvP is always multiplayer, and so should be compared to PvE co-op, not just any type of PvE... in such case multiplayer can introduce as much variety to PvE as does in PvP, but in a completely different direction... not to mention that the "uniqueness" of PvP generated by players is not necessarily unique, it just feels organic vs the manufactured feel that many PvE scenarios can present... this is for in PvP there is always a "meta game" that will forever shape gameplay, gamers will "game the system", and after a definite amount of time most will figure the best strategies and "builds" and those who don't conform will usually have an worse time overall... this is the reason most PvP devs constantly introduce changes to balance, so to try and keep the meta changing and reintroduce the "uniqueness" back into the game, alas is just a fleeting feeling whenever achieved... I used to love PvP games along w/ co-op multiplayer, but the human element applied to a competitive setting makes for a worse experience in general, unless the whole of it is highly regulated as is w/ sports in real life... and this is due to when being pitted against people you don't know there is little incentive for players to be honest/honorable, even if united by a common goal... for many PvP games, getting ahead is the only real goal and even when the gameplay is designed to curb those negative impulses, many will resort to cheating or hacking to bypass the game systems... (just as on observation, cheating and hacking does occur in PvE games even solo ones, but in multiplayer PvE it often doesn't feel as bad as when crossing paths w/ cheaters in PvP games)
Tarkovs PvP and the idea of survival are kinda at odds, cause usually the best way to survive is to avoid PvP. So you PvP when it comes to you, the tasks demand it or you really like PvP. But Tarkovs PvP is also inefficient in that it takes quite a lot of time to get into fights and back into fights. Wether or not you die in a raid it can easily take 5 to 10 minutes to get back into a raid if not vastly more. I think if you made Factory but you can spawn back in within like 30 seconds, people would wanna play that.
For me personally in Tarkov, it was 100% the fault of hackers that i stopped pvp entirely. For games like Apex it was like80% that and 20% the unbalaced matchmaking, why should i EVEN TRY to play that game if i get desroyed by some nolifer that has 4k more hours in that game and play as if someone hold them at gunpoint. no thanks. And other games that has something like a point based ranking full of obvious hacker like if you play you get an average of 800points/h and the first 15 dudes got like 5 Trillion points and after that there are like real player with 25k. nope F... that game too.
I used to be really into Tarkov PvP and Hunt Showdown more recently. At some point recently I've stopped getting that high from killing players. That boost you get from one upping your opponent. It literally doesn't happen for me anymore. Not sure what triggered it or anything. But without getting that high. I've started to wonder why PvP is so much the focus for people. So many gamers see any game without PvP as not even a game or at least not worth playing. Obviously, my conclusion is they are chasing that high and I wonder if there is something inherently unhealthy about that high. I also wonder if we will see a PvE game where you will get that high without the player engagement at all. With the AI that is being made today injected into a game. Could a game fake having players and the player not realize it? Would not knowing still give you that high or is uncanny valley able to span the digital space? PvE games can and should become the focus at least for a time. Good experiences that generate a feeling of accomplishment and contentment. Instead of the high of one upping another person.
I did pvp for years and years - decades even. At the end of the day I no longer have any hunger for dealing with trash talking elitists, hackers, trolls or exploitive developers. I just can't be bothered anymore. If I cant get on a game and hang out with decent folks and have a good time - I am just not interested. Life is full of enough sweat lords without having to spend time with them in games. I welcome the new dawn of co op. I find it far more rewarding. If you can deal with PVP - more power to you. Do what you enjoy.
it reminds me of Sea Of Thieves offering a "Safer Seas" mode, which lets player crews play without other players. a chiller, lower stakes mode where you can play through story mode and regular missions, but you cant access high-level content, and gold and rep gain is only 30% of playing on "High Seas" with other players
First things first: I'm a PvE and single player guy, so i might be biased in my perspective. The biggest advantage of PvP games is also it's biggest disadvantage imo. Fighting players does offer "nemey behaviour" that a PvE game could never achieve, but it will also invetiably lead to a "Meta". I'm not saying that playing the Meta is always going to make a player win every encounter, but people do like minimising risk. People are generally pretty competitive and will take every advantage they can get (sometimes illegitimate ones too). Games like extraction shooters especially are high risk too. There is no worse feeling than thinking "Well that was a waste of time" or even losing progress. There's also the term "Skill floor", aka the minimum amount of skill you need to be successful at the game. This Skill floor can actually rise over time when the existing playerbase gets more skilled at the game. A good example for this would be Fortnite. At the beginning everyone was at the same level, until some people learned how to build extremely fast. This caused these players to dominate players who didn't. The players couldn't build as fast had to either learn to build as fast as them to have a chance at winning more reliably or alternatively stop playing (At least until they finally added that no build mode). So why do I play more CO-OP and single player games then? Those games usually have a meta too. I do value difficulty, but I also value the ability to approach things in different ways. Quite many CO-OP games offer something like a build on characters or loadouts tailored to a niche (and maybe sub-optimal) playstyle. However this is what makes a good CO-OP/Single player game for me. The lack of competition against other players means i'm not handicapping myself as much when playing with a unique build or weapon. PvE games also have a tendency to have difficulty options which means you can tailor the game more for your liking and skill, making it more accessable to a broader playerbase. In addition PvE games often don't require an official server, so even once the game stops development, there are no servers to be shut down which could prevent you from playing. There are also PvPvE games out there, but personally i feel like they suffer from the same issues that PvP games do, which mostly negate the positives dedicated PvE and SP games offer. but yeah i'm just spitballing my thoughts lol
Also PVP game search for efficiency can ruin immersion, ofc dumbass in chat also ruin immersion but when you have a player constently jumping because it make it harder to hit him immmersion wise it's a killer, if the game accounted for stamina and knee damage maybe such annnoying and totaly impossible behaviour would vanish and it's not the only one of efficiency oriented gameplay that game the system and is totaly unrealistic, i mean rushing the geman on normandy beach avoiding machine gun etc but then a bunny hop on the screen ....
In all honesty when I saw extraction shooters, I though "this looks awesome, but I want this in single Player and with story and progress! So Im not mad.
Forever Winter is a perfect example of why PvP will never die: Its an amazing game. Athmospheric. Challenging. Skill based. But it's also repetitive and the difficulty drops quickly. The AI isn't nearly intelligent and creative enough to be a real challenge once you've understood how it works, that was at less than 20 hours of playtime to me. So the full gameplay experience is a relatively short lived thing. I do expect the AI to improve, it's in development after all, but only by a limited amount. The game that's supposed to put you in an underdog position against superior foes had me turning into rambo, dominating the battlespace within three days of starting the game. I love forever winter. I expect it to improve a lot as features get added and improved.. ..But I don't expect to ever put hundreds, or even thousands, of hours into Forever Winter. Not like I did a number of PvP games, both Hunt Showdown and EfT included in that list. AI isn't able to offer the variety of challenges, the wide range of difficulties and the sheer chaos of PvP encounters. No PvE experience, no matter how well crafted, can keep engagement as long as other players can, especially hostile players. The big advantage of PvE games is that while the highs aren't as high as in PvP, the lows are usually also not as low. I have yet to get griefed by AI. People can be assholes, AI usually isn't designed to be.
I honestly wish I enjoyed pvp more, there are a number of games that are doing some pretty interesting things that I just can't be bothered to engage with, because dealing with pvp often just seems like more trouble that it's worth. even excluding cheaters and the not-infrequent toxicity, pvp games usually end up massively rewarding players who focus heavily on a small number of games, and have a lot of time to play them. everyone else gets to be their punching bag. ranks can help this somewhat, but only to a point, and can end up further cementing a sense of elitism, as well as a requirement to spend even more time playing before you get the "real" experience. further, while I agree that player behavior can lead to a variety of emergent experiences, I find that those experiences tend to exist within a pretty narrow range that pvp games typically allow for. basically, I find that most of them still get extremely repetitive, especially when played for long periods of time. I like to play a variety of games across many genres. I also don't have nearly as much time to play as I did when I was younger. I could choose to spend dozens or hundreds of hours mostly getting beaten up by players who likely have more time to spend on more focused interests, and probably gain very little other than frustration, or I could choose to engage with hundreds of pve games that, to me at least, offer much more interesting gameplay, as well as the ability to tell stories far more effectively than pvp games typically can.
much as I like the idea of Tarkov, the reality never really seemed to be worth it. there are lots of other things I could play instead and probably enjoy more. in any case, modded Stalker is right there. skips all the frustrations of pvp, while still providing a deep and extremely challenging game capable keeping you engaged, learning new things and encountering new challenges for hundreds of hours. I'll concede that the enemy AI isn't on the same level as human players (in what game is it ever?), but it still does a really solid job. and when routinely outnumbered by enemies with infinite ammo and minimal regard for their safety, it can require every bit as much skill and creativity to overcome as actual pvp. for players who require further challenges, it's also quite easy to customize the difficulty of the sandbox or impose further restrictions on their own behavior. lots of people are good at the game at this point, not many are completely trivializing full ironman runs.
In a genre that will have the biggest impact on my time being wasted because of cheaters I would prefer it to just be PvE. If Beautiful Light doesn’t have PvE I’m not gonna play it.
Fun fact, you can kill your team mates in this game but your faction for scavs, and sellers like heisenberg, that guy that sells the right will go into a negative.
Love PvPvE games. The added stress from other players is a lot of fun and can be more engaging. However, I don’t play PvP anymore; simply because of the rampant cheater problem in games like Tarkov. Witchfire is pretty solid so far as is Forever Winter and with good entries into this genre I’m probably not going back.
Nah man nothing comes close to pvp in gaming. But sometimes it is nice to go on solo adventure or chill in co op. In general the games should stay separate, as once you need to balance for pvp, pve balance has to take a backseat. There are some exceptions, like Dark Soulsm but it takes that level of macro understanding of your ingredients to get it right. Love Tark, really enjoying Forever Winter. Stalker 2 on Wish list.
For me it died ling time ago after release of battle filed 4 which was glorified dlc for bf3 which already had 3ish dlcs combine with original game was much better experience. On top of it this notion amongst players that victory is fun but not playtime itself pushed me out of most pvp games but fps definitely was the first on exit.
When you think about it, it's actually better for PvP games to have a smaller market because there's only so many players. Too many games dilutes the PvP player base and makes the game stale as you'll probably fight the same players game on game or it'll take ages to find a game. Pve can afford to dilute simply cause it's only a handful of people per game v the game itself. Pve will always be more attractive to the widest audience because it's casual, sometimes people just want to relax. Not stress or rage because another camper killed them. PvP is an arms race, you keep up or fall behind and lose. Simple as. Pve the game doesn't magically get more difficult when you aren't playing, it's a set difficulty even if it may be high that you can overcome, just takes time even if you can only spare an hour a week you will get better eventually and win the game. PvP this isn't possible.
There will always be PVP games but now there are more PVE games which is fair. Not everyone wants to cheat or be killed by sweaty cheaters, some folks just want to play. PVP games come out with cheats right behind it or in some cases before the game even comes out. Craziness.
I don't think PVP has died, but rather just demand for PVE has increased lately. still a demand for both forms of gaming just one has seen a rather sudden influx in interest.
Here is the thing other players are often the worst thing about PVP games. I think if we had sufficiently good AI a good 50-60% of players playing multiplayer games would no longer bother.
"the difficulty scales naturally in PVP." Game dev here... no? No it doesn't Not without some sort of matchmaking, you could and often do have the worst players getting attacked by the best out there. In fact BSG forces this pretty much with its wipes, to force bad players to go up against good ones and encourage their streamers.
I only have one problem with PvP.. and its not "toxicity" or something like that, its the fcking Cheaters and the "META". PvP can be good, but its always the little (Insert word i can't say because youtube already hates me for saying what i want to) without honor, who fck everything up.. I guess you could say "toxicity" to that, but i just hate the word..
PvP is for tryhard competitive types but is filled with toxicity, and cheaters. For the more casual 98%, PvE is more fun with less pressure and the larger market.
There's only one problem with PvP games - cheaters. Everything else is just a matter of taste like fashion or music. People would be surprised if they knew how games could be without cheaters. Day and night comparison.
Whats your favorite extraction game?
Great video! Honestly my favorite extraction shooter was the now defunct The Cycle: Frontier. I got so immersed in that game. It wasn't perfect, but it was the one that sucked me in the most...and I've tried 'em all. However, I still don't think anyone has made the best version of this genre yet. I truly think if a developer can mix the ingredients just right, then it has the potential to be a Hall of Fame'r.
I do however really want to try Witchfire now thanks to you!
Currently? Witchfire. The shooting is just amazingly fun.
@@kn0xpUnk have you tried hawked? very similar to The Cycle in some aspects
Fav extraction? Kidney stone... Road of pain.... But naw the genre has been done to hell but 9 out of 10 are crap. let the forest fire burn till it's out and start from scratch
PVP is not dead, demand for PVP games may have lessened but they won’t be dead. The forever winter has simply shown that there is a large demand for something different.
Apologies about the ending being cut off. Seems like an issue with TH-cam.
If youre wondering what you missed, it was “thanks for watching, and ill see you again next time…” 😂
While other players can make PvP games "good," it's also the other players that can make PvP games awful. It's the toxicity of the communities that have turned me off from PvP games in general even if I do still enjoy some group v group experiences. I'm glad there are developers finally recognizing that there is a market for games that can create a tense, exciting and immersive experience without the toxicity of the "Git gud, carebears! Lol!!" community ruining it.
For me it's how competitive it gets for some peeps. I just wanna chill.
Like deadlock. Fun game but since launch I already got mfs headglitchin n crouch spamming me like aight bro I just got off 3 12s at the hospital I dont wanna have to sweat when Im gaming.
PvE all the way for me now.
Also, AI can't get upset when it gets killed, or loses the game. It's generally more fun for everyone when it's just the AI getting clowned on instead.
I've also noticed that PvE games generally have a much nicer, friendlier community than games that are not. The experience I've had with a game like Deep Rock Galactic is completely different from that of Halo or CoD. There's a sense of community and camaraderie in these games that many PvP shooters seem to lack, if not outright discourage.
I think the main problem with PVP games for the average gamer is that most people who play PvP games only play that PVP game.
And the reality is you just can't compete with people who only play one game when you like to play a variety of games. On top of that even if you used to be a sweat who is really high level at one game If you stop playing you will get left behind just like everybody else.
So you're kind of stuck in this dilemma between only playing one game and never taking a break or playing a variety of games and settle for being decent even if you have a ton of time in the game.
I am an older fella. All i did back in the day, since HalfLife multiplayer and all of its mods up untill recently was PVP. Even the COD series But. Im a causal and i want environmental depth, completing missions and/or aquiring loot. Devs like 2K's Borderlands, RedBarrels and the Outlast series, 10 Chambers with GTFO and currently FunDog with Forever Winter have pulled me in with the atmsphere. And Arrowhead did well with Helldivers, albeit with some shaky months from the top. I enjoy taking that in and exploring that and escaping the busy day to day many of us have. Jumping in to an hour or two of sweat in MW is the last thing i need after workin my 8 to 5. PvP isnt dead, it has a very focused fan base who have fine tuned muscle memory. That is t for me. Bring on stealth with my teamates, firefights against AI and a good lore base with maybe a stressfull extract. Thats cool with me. Take'r easy everyone.
I've tried over te yrs to get into PVP and other extraction shooters, and they never really were for me as a casual-mainly-single-player-game-type.
I have yet to play Witchfire, but I can say The Forever Winter(40ish hours in) has really become something special and fun. It still needs a lot of work, but has already incorporated enough to make me look for to the next raid. Very much looking forward to what awaits down the road.
I play Hunt: Showdown a lot. I think it's one of the most interesting PvP Shooters of all time. I tried Tarkov but it is too frustrating and hardcore and I mostly play PvE only nowadays. I don't have stomach anymore to deal with cheaters. Also, I'd like to remind about Titanfall, which was the first game I remember that introduced not only a 6v6 - reduced number of players - match structure but also enemy bots on every match - taking cues from MOBAS.
I don't think PVE games can ever replicate the thrill that playing against real players brings you because of human's unpredictable nature, but PVE games probably also can't replicate the frustration that playing alongside/against players brings.
Id argue that they fill the same thing in different forms because most pvp games fall into a meta where one or two builds are so strong majority of players will do that instead of the alternative which then just becomes like fighting finely tuned AI NPCs
I like how this video discusses the cooperative extraction genre using Witchfire and The Forever Winter, but references only examples and specifics from Witchfire.
Tarkov is my favorite, but haven't been the biggest fan of the extraction mechanics (bad spawn points, extraction camping, predictable player spawns/predicting enemy movement based on spawns)
If tarkov never had pvp, it would still be okay-ish.
If tarkov never was an extraction game, it would still be great.
It's the deep, interesting mechanics, that promote difficult and impactful decisions.
The long term progression with safety nets and backups.(saving gear into hideout, unlocking better stuff)
The extreme luck contrast with random chances for loot, situations and conflicts.
The requirement of voice chat for teamplay(even in pve), provides socialization.
The difficult challenges that are extremely rewarding in the end.
The constant updates, new maps, features, additions, that provides something exciting to explore once or twice a year.
The fun routine activities and actions that are a delight (fighting scavs, eating, healing, looting, traveling, hoarding, managing hideout, building guns)
Extraction mechanic is such a nice addition
It adds an excellent ever nearing threat and more spice into the pot with the time limit every raid.
The timer method could be replaced with radiation/tiredness mechanic. (forcing players to evacuate a zone or return to safety periodically)
I will push back against the "PvP is always unique" argument... or even "PvP can be more unique from moment to moment comparatively to PvE" (if there were such argument made)
for one: PvP is always multiplayer, and so should be compared to PvE co-op, not just any type of PvE... in such case multiplayer can introduce as much variety to PvE as does in PvP, but in a completely different direction... not to mention that the "uniqueness" of PvP generated by players is not necessarily unique, it just feels organic vs the manufactured feel that many PvE scenarios can present... this is for in PvP there is always a "meta game" that will forever shape gameplay, gamers will "game the system", and after a definite amount of time most will figure the best strategies and "builds" and those who don't conform will usually have an worse time overall... this is the reason most PvP devs constantly introduce changes to balance, so to try and keep the meta changing and reintroduce the "uniqueness" back into the game, alas is just a fleeting feeling whenever achieved...
I used to love PvP games along w/ co-op multiplayer, but the human element applied to a competitive setting makes for a worse experience in general, unless the whole of it is highly regulated as is w/ sports in real life... and this is due to when being pitted against people you don't know there is little incentive for players to be honest/honorable, even if united by a common goal... for many PvP games, getting ahead is the only real goal and even when the gameplay is designed to curb those negative impulses, many will resort to cheating or hacking to bypass the game systems...
(just as on observation, cheating and hacking does occur in PvE games even solo ones, but in multiplayer PvE it often doesn't feel as bad as when crossing paths w/ cheaters in PvP games)
Tarkovs PvP and the idea of survival are kinda at odds, cause usually the best way to survive is to avoid PvP. So you PvP when it comes to you, the tasks demand it or you really like PvP. But Tarkovs PvP is also inefficient in that it takes quite a lot of time to get into fights and back into fights. Wether or not you die in a raid it can easily take 5 to 10 minutes to get back into a raid if not vastly more. I think if you made Factory but you can spawn back in within like 30 seconds, people would wanna play that.
For me personally in Tarkov, it was 100% the fault of hackers that i stopped pvp entirely. For games like Apex it was like80% that and 20% the unbalaced matchmaking, why should i EVEN TRY to play that game if i get desroyed by some nolifer that has 4k more hours in that game and play as if someone hold them at gunpoint. no thanks.
And other games that has something like a point based ranking full of obvious hacker like if you play you get an average of 800points/h and the first 15 dudes got like 5 Trillion points and after that there are like real player with 25k. nope F... that game too.
I used to be really into Tarkov PvP and Hunt Showdown more recently. At some point recently I've stopped getting that high from killing players. That boost you get from one upping your opponent. It literally doesn't happen for me anymore. Not sure what triggered it or anything. But without getting that high. I've started to wonder why PvP is so much the focus for people. So many gamers see any game without PvP as not even a game or at least not worth playing. Obviously, my conclusion is they are chasing that high and I wonder if there is something inherently unhealthy about that high. I also wonder if we will see a PvE game where you will get that high without the player engagement at all. With the AI that is being made today injected into a game. Could a game fake having players and the player not realize it? Would not knowing still give you that high or is uncanny valley able to span the digital space?
PvE games can and should become the focus at least for a time. Good experiences that generate a feeling of accomplishment and contentment. Instead of the high of one upping another person.
I did pvp for years and years - decades even. At the end of the day I no longer have any hunger for dealing with trash talking elitists, hackers, trolls or exploitive developers. I just can't be bothered anymore. If I cant get on a game and hang out with decent folks and have a good time - I am just not interested. Life is full of enough sweat lords without having to spend time with them in games. I welcome the new dawn of co op. I find it far more rewarding. If you can deal with PVP - more power to you. Do what you enjoy.
it reminds me of Sea Of Thieves offering a "Safer Seas" mode, which lets player crews play without other players. a chiller, lower stakes mode where you can play through story mode and regular missions, but you cant access high-level content, and gold and rep gain is only 30% of playing on "High Seas" with other players
Such questionable tuning decision. My kids and I played it but it always felt like we were being overly punished.
@@AndrewChambersDesignIt has to be higher risk higher reward incentive otherwise it just kills the game by splitting the player base too much
First things first: I'm a PvE and single player guy, so i might be biased in my perspective.
The biggest advantage of PvP games is also it's biggest disadvantage imo.
Fighting players does offer "nemey behaviour" that a PvE game could never achieve, but it will also invetiably lead to a "Meta". I'm not saying that playing the Meta is always going to make a player win every encounter, but people do like minimising risk. People are generally pretty competitive and will take every advantage they can get (sometimes illegitimate ones too).
Games like extraction shooters especially are high risk too. There is no worse feeling than thinking "Well that was a waste of time" or even losing progress.
There's also the term "Skill floor", aka the minimum amount of skill you need to be successful at the game. This Skill floor can actually rise over time when the existing playerbase gets more skilled at the game.
A good example for this would be Fortnite. At the beginning everyone was at the same level, until some people learned how to build extremely fast. This caused these players to dominate players who didn't. The players couldn't build as fast had to either learn to build as fast as them to have a chance at winning more reliably or alternatively stop playing (At least until they finally added that no build mode).
So why do I play more CO-OP and single player games then? Those games usually have a meta too.
I do value difficulty, but I also value the ability to approach things in different ways. Quite many CO-OP games offer something like a build on characters or loadouts tailored to a niche (and maybe sub-optimal) playstyle. However this is what makes a good CO-OP/Single player game for me. The lack of competition against other players means i'm not handicapping myself as much when playing with a unique build or weapon.
PvE games also have a tendency to have difficulty options which means you can tailor the game more for your liking and skill, making it more accessable to a broader playerbase.
In addition PvE games often don't require an official server, so even once the game stops development, there are no servers to be shut down which could prevent you from playing.
There are also PvPvE games out there, but personally i feel like they suffer from the same issues that PvP games do, which mostly negate the positives dedicated PvE and SP games offer.
but yeah i'm just spitballing my thoughts lol
Also PVP game search for efficiency can ruin immersion, ofc dumbass in chat also ruin immersion but when you have a player constently jumping because it make it harder to hit him immmersion wise it's a killer, if the game accounted for stamina and knee damage maybe such annnoying and totaly impossible behaviour would vanish and it's not the only one of efficiency oriented gameplay that game the system and is totaly unrealistic, i mean rushing the geman on normandy beach avoiding machine gun etc but then a bunny hop on the screen ....
In all honesty when I saw extraction shooters, I though "this looks awesome, but I want this in single Player and with story and progress! So Im not mad.
Forever Winter is a perfect example of why PvP will never die:
Its an amazing game. Athmospheric. Challenging. Skill based.
But it's also repetitive and the difficulty drops quickly.
The AI isn't nearly intelligent and creative enough to be a real challenge once you've understood how it works, that was at less than 20 hours of playtime to me. So the full gameplay experience is a relatively short lived thing. I do expect the AI to improve, it's in development after all, but only by a limited amount.
The game that's supposed to put you in an underdog position against superior foes had me turning into rambo, dominating the battlespace within three days of starting the game.
I love forever winter. I expect it to improve a lot as features get added and improved..
..But I don't expect to ever put hundreds, or even thousands, of hours into Forever Winter. Not like I did a number of PvP games, both Hunt Showdown and EfT included in that list.
AI isn't able to offer the variety of challenges, the wide range of difficulties and the sheer chaos of PvP encounters. No PvE experience, no matter how well crafted, can keep engagement as long as other players can, especially hostile players.
The big advantage of PvE games is that while the highs aren't as high as in PvP, the lows are usually also not as low. I have yet to get griefed by AI. People can be assholes, AI usually isn't designed to be.
I honestly wish I enjoyed pvp more, there are a number of games that are doing some pretty interesting things that I just can't be bothered to engage with, because dealing with pvp often just seems like more trouble that it's worth. even excluding cheaters and the not-infrequent toxicity, pvp games usually end up massively rewarding players who focus heavily on a small number of games, and have a lot of time to play them. everyone else gets to be their punching bag. ranks can help this somewhat, but only to a point, and can end up further cementing a sense of elitism, as well as a requirement to spend even more time playing before you get the "real" experience. further, while I agree that player behavior can lead to a variety of emergent experiences, I find that those experiences tend to exist within a pretty narrow range that pvp games typically allow for. basically, I find that most of them still get extremely repetitive, especially when played for long periods of time.
I like to play a variety of games across many genres. I also don't have nearly as much time to play as I did when I was younger. I could choose to spend dozens or hundreds of hours mostly getting beaten up by players who likely have more time to spend on more focused interests, and probably gain very little other than frustration, or I could choose to engage with hundreds of pve games that, to me at least, offer much more interesting gameplay, as well as the ability to tell stories far more effectively than pvp games typically can.
much as I like the idea of Tarkov, the reality never really seemed to be worth it. there are lots of other things I could play instead and probably enjoy more.
in any case, modded Stalker is right there. skips all the frustrations of pvp, while still providing a deep and extremely challenging game capable keeping you engaged, learning new things and encountering new challenges for hundreds of hours.
I'll concede that the enemy AI isn't on the same level as human players (in what game is it ever?), but it still does a really solid job. and when routinely outnumbered by enemies with infinite ammo and minimal regard for their safety, it can require every bit as much skill and creativity to overcome as actual pvp. for players who require further challenges, it's also quite easy to customize the difficulty of the sandbox or impose further restrictions on their own behavior. lots of people are good at the game at this point, not many are completely trivializing full ironman runs.
In a genre that will have the biggest impact on my time being wasted because of cheaters I would prefer it to just be PvE. If Beautiful Light doesn’t have PvE I’m not gonna play it.
Fun fact, you can kill your team mates in this game but your faction for scavs, and sellers like heisenberg, that guy that sells the right will go into a negative.
PVP is scarry, like what if i die ...
Love PvPvE games. The added stress from other players is a lot of fun and can be more engaging. However, I don’t play PvP anymore; simply because of the rampant cheater problem in games like Tarkov. Witchfire is pretty solid so far as is Forever Winter and with good entries into this genre I’m probably not going back.
Nah man nothing comes close to pvp in gaming. But sometimes it is nice to go on solo adventure or chill in co op.
In general the games should stay separate, as once you need to balance for pvp, pve balance has to take a backseat.
There are some exceptions, like Dark Soulsm but it takes that level of macro understanding of your ingredients to get it right.
Love Tark, really enjoying Forever Winter. Stalker 2 on Wish list.
For me it died ling time ago after release of battle filed 4 which was glorified dlc for bf3 which already had 3ish dlcs combine with original game was much better experience. On top of it this notion amongst players that victory is fun but not playtime itself pushed me out of most pvp games but fps definitely was the first on exit.
When you think about it, it's actually better for PvP games to have a smaller market because there's only so many players. Too many games dilutes the PvP player base and makes the game stale as you'll probably fight the same players game on game or it'll take ages to find a game. Pve can afford to dilute simply cause it's only a handful of people per game v the game itself.
Pve will always be more attractive to the widest audience because it's casual, sometimes people just want to relax. Not stress or rage because another camper killed them. PvP is an arms race, you keep up or fall behind and lose. Simple as. Pve the game doesn't magically get more difficult when you aren't playing, it's a set difficulty even if it may be high that you can overcome, just takes time even if you can only spare an hour a week you will get better eventually and win the game. PvP this isn't possible.
There will always be PVP games but now there are more PVE games which is fair. Not everyone wants to cheat or be killed by sweaty cheaters, some folks just want to play. PVP games come out with cheats right behind it or in some cases before the game even comes out. Craziness.
I don't think PVP has died, but rather just demand for PVE has increased lately. still a demand for both forms of gaming just one has seen a rather sudden influx in interest.
Here is the thing other players are often the worst thing about PVP games. I think if we had sufficiently good AI a good 50-60% of players playing multiplayer games would no longer bother.
"the difficulty scales naturally in PVP."
Game dev here... no? No it doesn't Not without some sort of matchmaking, you could and often do have the worst players getting attacked by the best out there. In fact BSG forces this pretty much with its wipes, to force bad players to go up against good ones and encourage their streamers.
I hope so. Hasn't been a good one in years.
Your ending is cut off btw. But great video otherwise.
Wierd and frustrating. Sorry about that looks like its a YT problem :(
For me PVE games don’t have the longevity of the PVP games I play. They are a flash in the pan month or two vs the PVP games which can be 10yrs +
Grey zone was the biggest waste of money..i wish it was pen and paper so i could pray it was made of 2ply and do the crossword instead.
I see some people in the comments need help differentiating a statement from a question. I imagine those people are die hard PvP.
I only have one problem with PvP.. and its not "toxicity" or something like that, its the fcking Cheaters and the "META". PvP can be good, but its always the little (Insert word i can't say because youtube already hates me for saying what i want to) without honor, who fck everything up.. I guess you could say "toxicity" to that, but i just hate the word..
PvP is for tryhard competitive types but is filled with toxicity, and cheaters. For the more casual 98%, PvE is more fun with less pressure and the larger market.
There's only one problem with PvP games - cheaters. Everything else is just a matter of taste like fashion or music. People would be surprised if they knew how games could be without cheaters. Day and night comparison.
Left PvP a long time ago….bunch of toxic cheaters. I will play games that assist or help other players like the Forever Winter.
Who actually came up with this title? Like they cant be serious.
No, its not lol
It’s not a statement of fact. Did you not notice it was posted as a question?
I am not interested in PVP because it's incentives pay to win.
the title makes no sense at all. Just because one pve extraction game is coming out doesnt mean pvp will die out...even the thinking is stupid
Did you notice it was posted as a question and not a statement of fact?
@@freedomfirst5557 yeah but the question is stupid
Klickbait.