1:54 Poor structure (Blurry start / end / middle) 5:48 Weak motivation (Characters not interested in the ongoings) 6:44 Only one thing to do (Railroading / Funneling) 8:04 Weak or contradicting descriptions 10:38 The focus is wrong (Forgetting to include the characters) 13:38 Routine or mundane challenges (Lack of variation) To me it seems that most of these are often result of not knowing and/or including the characters well enough! Except: "Weak or contradicting descriptions" which is not so much a sign of "bad plot" but more a sign og "bad GM".
I really think he should have topic cards, or at least a little graphic on the bottom that tells what point he's on, it would make everything a lot easier to follow!
Thanks for the "short list"... AND I might posit, rather than accusing the descriptive nonsense on a "bad GM", suggesting it's the result of an "inexperienced" or "unpracticed" GM and encourage us all to show a dose of humble patience while we coach our GM's forward in their aspirations... I've noticed a fair proclivity in this (AND other) comments sections for complaints about GM's being a scarce commodity in gaming. There's a chance (not a definite charge here exactly) that Players' impatience to call out a GM being "bad" for one or another mistake or misstep in narrative, might lead aspiring and new GM's to the conclusion that they either "deliver incredible material" or "run like scared rabbits from the table"... and go back to being "just a Player"... Cultivating rather than running off is the difficult (but usually more correct) thing to do. ;o)
+Kaz Avian > Years back he had such. But it seems he have dropped using the visual part of the media TH-cam is, to appear more like a radio commentator now.
I once started a game with some kids. It was a quest, where they had to find someone who murdered a rich woman. It was all planned out well, back then I was a player myself and I've already done this quest. My sister (she was 7 back then) was like: "I search behind the stage where she was killed." Me: "You see bloody, little Footprints" Her: "is there a official news board or something in the town?" Me: "Yes, there is one in the centrum" Her: "Ok, so I go there and write a note saying "I'm searching for people with small feet as models for my designed shoes" We rolled the dice. She had luck. The mystery was solved in an hour. OUR CAMPAIGN NEEDED THREE MONTHS!
@@albertnorman4136 They probably wouldn't have left footprints if they knew the footprints were there. If they left them and knew about it they most likely either wanted to be caught or would be too stupid to think about it at all, lol
I´d like to talk about poor description. Some time ago a came to the conclusion that it is not only vital how you describe things like for example a room but it matters a lot in which order you describe the items in the room. In my past i tend to describe the most important Items/persons in the room first. Then i startet to realise that might not be the smartest move. For example: My players walked into an office where a woman was kneeling in her own blood. Head turned towards the ceeling. Her eyes where blue and colourfull smoke came out of her mouth. My players got very exited cause the where looking for that person, wondering what had happen to her. Everything else i described in this room was lost in this exitement. Sure, that would be the first thing you would notice as a person, walking to that room, but it will focus the attention of your players directly to that scene. They might not listen to your describtion concerning the rest of the room. At my table I try to structure my describtions from mudane to special features. This helps me to avoid the nedd to describe something over and over again.
In writing there is something called the dramatic sentence, I believe. Where you always save the most climactic portion of a sentence for the end. It has more impact that way. Example of not using the dramatic sentence: "The space station exploded and the characters looked on in shock at the loss of what had been their home for so long." Using the dramatic sentence instead: "The characters looked on in shock as the space station, what had been their home for so long, exploded." This way it builds to the story beat and it can sink in instead of burying the lead with more trivial aspects of description and thought.
@@Melvin7727 There's a tendency lately, proliferated by Tracy Hickman's XDM, that you should NEVER read aloud the boxed text. "Make it your own," they say, but unless you're an established fantasy author, why WOULDN'T you use the boxed text?
I like involving choice in my games, not just a single solution to way of doing stuff, by making my players engange in direct change of the outcome of everything that's within their reach. I remember a game of Call of Cthulhu, where they found themselves going through deep twisting tunnels below a city, when they suddenly find that the final door before they meet the cult they were looking for is actually the pulverized body of an old enemy they faced before, whose body was reshaped to have the look and sturdiness of a wooden door. It still had its conscience and could form a mouth to talk to the group. There they talked to him for a while and I had planned for them to destroy it in order to go through, but they actually felt sorry for the guy once they finally got to have a chat with him and found a way to actually unhinge the door which made it dissolve into dust. The guy's conscience was still intact and was able to talk to them despite it's condition. They collected the dust into a leather bag and carried him through that game and turned into an NPC from where players could ask about the myths and magic stuff. It was completely unexpected but such an amazing resolution.
I couldn't agree more. One of things that I like to do when giving my players an obstacle is recap a few things that happened in previous sessions, in case they forgot. Then say ok. You have choice A, choice B, and choice C based on what you learned from NPCs X Y & Z. Or you could go off on your own and do something else entirely. So if they want to be creative. They can be. If they can't think of something, then they still have multiple ways forward.
But also have into consideration multiple outcomes. In the next session my players are going to face a choice that will affect the whole comunity they're living in and the essence of their characters themselves. And it's completely clear that it's their choice on what's going to happen. And even if they choose one, they'll still have the chance to stir the result of their decision to a middle ground or something. Thinking of different outcomes to a situation helps making the players feel their actions have consequences that can shape the world.
Yes, it is such situations where it is fun to be the Keeper / GM: to see what fascinating ideas the players come up with! I think CoC to be wonderful creator of such, as the "kill and destroy everything" monotony D&D have simply do not work in CoC.
That's what these videos are for, improving your writing. My first self-written adventure at the age of 16 was terrible, full of inconsistencies, deus ex tropes and without explanations how the PCs got there or who this random NPC is who just pops up out of nowhere. You learn over time. Being a critical book reader or TV watcher also helps. Avoiding Hollywood's worst tropes helped me get better at this.
Fun fact: It is believed that "Virgin Blood" does not actually refer to ones virginity in a sexual sense but actually refers to if ones blood has been used in a ritual before. As in your blood is a virgin to occult rituals.
@@mistery8363 I mean, if we're pretending these occult rituals are just another element of reality, there's no particular reason that their components should be especially onerous to obtain.
DM: "OK look, I'll let you do this, BUT only as long as it's the villagers doing the horizontal mambo. You can't use your abilities & the circumstances to justify taking advantage of the situation like that." PC's think that they got one over on the villainous wizard while sneaking in a little T&A to their D&D. Villain: "Welp, looks like you virgin PC's will just have to do. You're all going to LOVE my beholder friend." I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going. ^_^
Guy ... You are almost always talking and relating to roleplay through the perspective of an evil driven plot ( the bad guy wants something and the PCs react, or try to anticipate etc.) You had a singular video sometime ago talking about good driven plots and you compared those with the mission of the Templar Knights. Could you do more videos for those of us that prefer good plots over the evil ones? As much as for the DMs out here but also for the players. I find it that not many people know how to grasp a good driven plot (even veterans of the RPGs) and it would be verrrry handy to just link them to you ;) Thank you for TH-cam-ing
0.0 Did not expect such a prompt answer! Let us make is a reality, uuum fantasy ... Fantastical reality, year of the good plot! Keep up the Great work!
Doesn't the whole concept of: Someone (ANYONE; good, bad, neutral) wants something badly, but is having difficulty getting it. Cover all of it and then some though? Wouldn't it just be a matter of switching the focus of who is doing what and changing their intentions from bad to good? Skeletor wants the death ray to destroy the world. Skeletor has the death ray and He-man wants to get the death ray so he can destroy it, so it can't be used for evil.
I'm actually also interested in how you define a good vs an evil driven plot. I'm assuming it's the difference between "The BBEG is attacking the towers that keep the barrier around our kingdom up, go stop him" vs "The towers that keep the barrier around our kingdom up are failing, go find out why and fix the problem" (where the problem ends up being something like the ley lines feeding the towers are drying up and you have to restore them, but the cause is natural and not some evil force restricting the them)?
The thing you can take into account is that evil vs. good plots is kind of ambiguous. Not even talking about perspective, look at goals. Evil Villain 67 wants to dominate the world and rule it. Benevolent King 248 wants to unite all nations under one banner. And be the guy who owns the banner. So as opposed to looking at evil vs. good, set your plots (within the scope of the idea) to be players vs. the individual with goals that need to be stopped. There's sort of like a 2x2 grid you can think of if you want to boil it down. Evil Villain Doing Bag Evil Villain Doing Good Good Villain doing Bad Good Villain doing Good. Everything but the last one is self explanatory. At surface level, you want someone who wants good aligned with players interest, doing bad deeds to get there. We want to build a wall for the city to keep monsters out so we enslaved the goblins to do it. Everything is completely relative and applicable to the reverse if you broaden your perspective just a wee bit.
I didn't realize by browsing D&D help videos I'd discover a genius mind for storytelling and character building in fantasy universes. Bravo sir. Amazing channel.
I had a GM screw over another player and me. "In the middle of the room, there is sparkling gem." Naturally we both made a mad dash for it. ".... Floating. As soon as you pluck the gem out of the air, an unseen wire goes taught and you both fall into a pit." Like anyone in their right mind is going to go anywhere near a gem dangling above the ground! He just wanted to clobber us.
One of my favorite plot device is the big bad thanks the pc. *Your attempt to thwart me was exactly what I needed.* The vampire taunts the party. "Thank you for moving that young lady. Her home was annoyingly warded. Now if you'll excuse me I'm having an old friend for dinner." The players attack, but it's just an illusion and it's now a race against time.
And of course sometimes you want their plan to succeed and allow them to trap your villain. Otherwise you'll discourage your players from thinking outside the box. Something that I ways encourage.
cert2b Nothing like trapping a villain only to have the need to rely on them to defeat a seemingly more powerful one only to be betrayed by the original villain who escapes only to become even stronger now that he has what the "common enemy" had...
"Ah, but her doctor that is ze plan. Now that they know the plan, they will plan around our plan. So we will plan our their plan that they planning around our plan!" - quote from one of the greatest series ever made.
I always have to watch these videos in parts. Not because they're hard to watch, but because I keep on having to go and write something down for later reference. Thank you for relentlessly inspiring me!
Thank you for this channel! I’m not subscribed but I’ve been watching each video because I just started my first DnD game ever. I’m the GM and I made a home brew for my friends to play. At first it was a little difficult to get my friends into it but we just finished only our second session and we already had some funny inside jokes, unique character development, and now my friends are curious about the secrets that lurk in my world. Once again I can’t thank you enough!
I want to thank you for all the great tips, tricks and explaintions. I have just finished my first pathfinder adventure as a GM. I was really insecure about my GMing and thanks to all that I have learned on this channel I think I will continue GMing more games. Thank you one more time
Thanks for this great overview! I would have added one thing, though, which frequently happens, even in officially published adventures: Don't rely on magic or technology to fix plot holes! "How did he get here so fast? - Uh, his ship has an experimental superwarp drive that can reach your planet in only a day." Also, remember which magic or technology is available to players, otherwise they will just teleport out of your carefully designed death trap, and all the planning and excitement is ruined.
I've found the most satisfying thing as dm is when you arn't the one making the plot and the players are. Basically my style has boiled down to making a world with quests and a bunch of villians doing stuff and they can pursue whatever goal they want.
Exactly! The PCs are (should be) the leading roles. The story is the story of the PCs. And it make it more fun to be GM when the PCs can figure out to do things on their own!
I have a problem with this metod because the majority of my players are either newbies or shy, or even both, só they don't know what they want to do or just don't Interact much on the table. I don't do linear campaings but still... some times given a lot of options overload some of then, so as a DM you need to introduct plot línes.
I've watched a lot of your videos, liked them all, and found this one especially helpful. Thank you so much for putting these out. So many table top TH-camrs are focused on systems, hacks, and gimmicks; it's so refreshing to get actual good advice from someone who recognizes the depth of the challenge if game mastering. Thank you!
I agree with the points made in this video, however I have a caveat I'd like to present for not changing description: Your players are in a dungeon in a demi-plane bound by non-euclidean geometry
As someone doing their first level 1 to 17+ campaign, a lot of these issues are ones I try to stay cognizant of. Keeping up variety during a long campaign, and making sure the plot stays tight while players have choices and large impacts on the story is a tight rope to walk.
This is awesome. Im a new gm/dm and i needed this. Im bad at doing the plot cuz my players are chaotic and i get overwhelmed by them. And i lose motivation. This helps so much. Thank you.
Firstly, very nice content, I almost never watch RPG YT channels but your rambling is really enjoyable :) About players outsmarting villains and stopping plot: give credit, where credit is due. Alternative enemy plans can give impression that whatever they do, villain always finds some other way anyway. Congratulate them, improvise ending for this session and plan the next one better. I feel like my players feel appreciated if I play fair with villain resources/abilities.
Great! The best part of game mastering is dealing with what the players do. It’s great to fit the stories that they want to tell into your overall idea. I really enjoy it.
Yes, agreed! It is a real good breaker of the "Routine or mundane challenges" monotony (talked about last in the video) to have such an unusual outcome!
As a first time DM I really appreciate this video to check my campaign against. I must say I'm feeling more confident now, I think I've done quite well.
Oh thank you, but I've been running my game since January. It's just nice to be able to gauge what I've done so far against the independent opinion in this video. Best of luck with your campaign, I'm sure it will be great.
Very helpful and informative vid. It made me realize that I was gonna make about all the mistakes in the campaign I'm preparing to start dming. Now it hopefully will be a more open plot and enjoyable game
I had a loose plot I was hoping would grow with some background info to write things that would interest the characters but all I got was guy who couldn't remember his past, a dwarf monk that wanted to find the best rock in the world, and a kid who just wanted to beat things up. :/
You need to change the focus of your campaign. Don't go for deep story and character exploration and development, go for an easier and more light story about just having a good time. If throught the sessions they start developing something more then you can change gears into something more akin their taste. It's not just for players to evolve and react to what the dm's throw at them, but also the dm's reactiong accordingly to what the players are and do.
Karanthaneos That was my plan. Unfortunately work got in my way of running and the guy with no memory had a hissy fit and stopped coming so my party went from two to one. :/
Manumitier I talked to that guy with no memories and he didn't care for my suggestion on why he was might be a noble so far from home and what not. He wasn't happy with it. So I scrapped any hope of that and just focused on the main scenerio. Didn't work out anyways since I had too much work and not enough play time. :(
Karanthaneos Yep. It sure was. I knew when I agreed to run something that I was going to end up not able to show. It was summer and I worked a landscaping job. When the guys got tired and went home early, I was still there with my boss trying to make the project times on time. :(
I started my first campaign with a prison break. I said that each player got to decide their backstory and why they were in prison, then I had an NPC wander over to the jail cells and trade beer for stories. This was followed by a jail break (your video on that helped a lot) and session 1 was a great success. I’m currently writing for session two now.
I have a small problem in my campaign: the players are NOT sharing the information they pick up and then forgetting about them because they don't discuss it as a group. I'm actually tempted to abandon the handouts altogether and just feed them info through NPCs. Edit; As I was typing, you literally mentioned that :D
You could use the "What do you want IP / XP / WhateverProgressPointsTheSystemUses for?" question. Then they learn that if they forget things then they do not get points for them!
Fantastic advice! and to add to it. I find that if Players have developed character motivations then its easy to find ways to integrate those motivations into the plot. Or if the players are mature and have a clear goal for their character then they will often time create the plot all on their own provided that they have communicated their intent well with the GM ahead of time.
As a GM who's just starting out (Created a campaign over the last couple years off an on, and ran my session 0 and 1 over the last couple weeks), my biggest excitement is to see how the story turns out! I've created a world with a backstory and some current very important events, invited my players and introduced them to the anticipation of one of these events and to create characters who's backstories are (for them unknowingly) strongly connected to this event, and I know the motivations and current undertakings of the important NPC's/villians. The absolute joy I got to feel already in session 1 where PCX cast speak with animals and got a hint of a very important clue from PCY's pet about PCY's connection to the underlying main event! It was worth all of the hours spent creating it :D And wow! The intense increase in motivation to flesh out the world even more as soon as the PC's put their feet in it and add their own sparks of imagination - "Oh, you were imprisoned in that town because you accidentally poisoned the nobility, and that's why you would rather avoid that place?" - Well, guess who's creating a news article about what happened in that town as a consequence of that >=D Mehehe!! I fear this can become addictive x)
Your videos are so helpful. Either I learn something I hadn't considered before, or I gain confidence because I'm already doing the things you're suggesting. This one's a confidence builder. I picked out a few good tips, but for the most part, my plots going great!
One of your most helpful videos, thank you! Also, I think you touched on this here, but could you do a video on session 1 (like setting the scene, introducing PCs, etc.)? I’ve found it’s an absurdly rare thing for people to talk about. Anyway, again, great work on this one :)
Yes, agreed. Could be nice to get some more focus at "Session Zero", "Prelude" and "Session One", as understanding how to use those when starting out a role playing campaign, will increase the chances of success a lot!
"10:38 The focus is wrong (Forgetting to include the characters)" Brings back memories of the Avatar trilogy of adventures: Shadowdale-Tantras-Waterdeep (late 80s). Based on the novels, the NPCs did all the meaningful things, while the PCs were just tagging along.
I've worked at it for years to get to what amounts to the same concept - "someone wants something badly" - and am glad to know I'm not alone. By figuring out what the NPCs (be they ally, villain or just one of the merchants they take their loot to) want, I find there is no shortage of things for the PCs to get involved with. Then I let them take the wheel, and build off in the direction they head, and onto the parts that they show the most interest in.
I use the Cone of Uncertainty principle in my DM planning. The further out, the less certain you are about where the story will go. So, like a cone, the uncertainty "widens" as you travel away from the narrow end. Thus, more planning on the narrower end, less to none on the wider end. And always be prepared to pivot!
I'm still working on this, but I've been working to improve my games by having an overarching plot line but having branching choices and changes to the world for better or worse depending on what the players do or do not do. For example okay you ignore the doppelganger hive in favor of opening an escape route from the city. The result being more doppelgangers around but less civilians in trouble and a viable escape route from the city for the party. The big thing with all this is to help the players come to know that they have options, what those options are, and the consequences of those options. In my experience this gives them goals to achieve that help them work out the overall end goal of the campaign, creates some pressure to give the party actions meaning and urgency, and also gives direction and a sense of accomplishment as they go. This also helps create a player driven story.
Oh my word! "The PCs made sure there were no more virgins... By taking them to a nunnery and no other method" 🤣 I started laughing in the Walmart checkout lane. Now I look psychotic. That was hilarious 😆
Best advise for proper descriptions I have is 1)use all the senses especially our primary five: Sound, sight, sent touch and taste. Starting with visual then sound. Touch in this case will include: temperature, wind, eerie feeling, etc. then scent. Finally in rare cases add taste particularly with really really strong odors. 2) Start with the dimensions of the room (length width and ceiling height. 3) next describe the construction : What is it made from? Style of construction? Current state of repair? 4) then features and details in the room itself: such as but not limited to: Artwork on walls or floor, obvious traps, furniture, creatures and any other details any character sees Without a perception check (of some kind) 4) now ADD extra details anyone with really high passive perception or investigation (or equivalent in the system of RPG you are playing in) would notice. Make a point that ONLY those characters immediately notice this. 5) remember to include tip 1 for tips 2-4. 6) add more only as players move closer, and make perception or investigation checks unless they are confused then repeat or rephrase only the details you have already mentioned answering questions about details they should have noticed but you neglected or forgot to include. Such as but not limited too: details about the floor, if anything was on the table, if anything was on the bookshelf, the colour of the glowing magical rune, etc. I hope this helps someone. Great video thanks!
One time while running a game I had the players ask me how big the town was. It was completely irrelevant to the game and I blurted out 1 million which was insanely too large. That of course got derision from the players and ended my carefully plotted game right there. I will never make that mistake again. Now I plan out town sizes, and NPCs and make up important NPCs. I also found the names in the back of Xanathars much more useful than I initially thought. Nothing ruins a game faster when having a whole town of villagers named Bob.
Good video. One thing I somewhat disagree with is (if I understand your point) is that the PCs must be able to determine a result by themselves, not requring an NPC to participate. I think PCs realising that they lack some skill or characteristic and therefore need to seek out help can be a good part of the plot - finding, hiring, persuading or coercing an NPC - who may have antithetical views or backgrounds to the party can provide an interesting part of a plot. But perhaps I misunderstand the point.
You misunderstood. He was talking about having your PCs not interact at all with the plot. In your example the PCs are interacting and engaged in finding, hiring, persuading or coercing. They are actively doing something to achieve something. This is good. An example of what he meant is having an NPC do what the PCs in your example are doing while your PCs watch on the sidelines, not interacting, just watching.
I write my stories ABOUT the players characters, I dont slot my players into a generic story that can fit any players. I always write my stories after I know the characters involved.
The best piece of advice in this video is just: - Move things you have already made to where your PCs are headed. If you just take stuff and put it in front of a path they picked out themselves, they'll think they've found it, and go, "Wow, you really have written stuff for every single place!"
Session zero, first sessions focus on the characters themselves while adding a bit of information about the big plot With a few sessions they will say "Wait, these things are all linked, lets solve it" XD
One thing I did for the start of the game for my group is haveing them all think of a reason why they would be on the boat pulling into the port in the "starting city" and it helped me make up plot lines for the players and progression of direction then I can place things all the map and I leave the " PCs" map with out things on it and add have a list of things to add and plot them on my map later
That part about the virgins reminded me of a bumper sticker I saw about 30 years ago. it read, "THE VILLAIN" in the middle. Around the corners, "Castles Plundered" "Dungeons Stocked" "Heros Eliminated" "Virginity Cured". And at the bottom middle, "No Job is too easy. No Fee too outrageous".
I'm glad do all roads lead to rome style I have a start and an end and in between that I have a few bits for them to do but I prefer to ask the "what do you do next?" and bounce off that get there brains working make there characters feel central, I'd love a sit down and chat with you just finished a full lvl20 going into epic lvl dnd 3.5 campaign
"When in doubt. Ninjas attack." A decent rule for handling the rambling. But, my long-running campaigns generally consist of loosely celebrated modules, and I'd probalby have a Star Wars style 'reward' scene. "Congratulations. You saved the world. There are no adventures left. Good day."
My favorite villain plan? "Strangle the PCs for breaking his previous plan." But, another thing to NEVER, EVER, EVER have the PCs do? Just ignore changes. Don't have the villain come up with 15 virgins ANYWAY as an aside. At the least, have them come across a razed village.
Description wise, my game master will give a very simple description of a room when the player enters, and will give more detail according to your perception rolls. If you roll low you get a very simple description, if you roll high you get a detailed description of your surroundings, and I kinda like it
Here's a very simple heuristic: Does your 'plot' go into detail on events that have yet to happen? Does it assume the motivations of the PCs? Does it do _anything_ that denies the players the ability to make their own decisions and reap the rewards (or penalties) thereof? Then it may or may not be a fine plot for a book, but it's a lousy plot for an RPG.
One thing I've thought is how about blending types of missions. Protecting the Princess also is a thwarting because it disrupts Head Evil Guy's plan. I actually had a DM who completely changed the setting/ plot because he thought it would be more interesting for him. I know this because he admitted this directly to me. The same GM also was into Bring in a small group of players (3 in this case) and let them build a party relationship. Then throw in new players (it got up to over 10 possibly 20 at one point). Observe how the players responded. The game fell apart.
My idea on how to structure a plot: Have at least 3 main "plots" that intertwine in some way. If the players decide to walk away from one plot they simply walk into the next one. eg The players start their story on the road to the next town. But as they approach the next town they realize it is under siege. Do they: A) help the attackers, overcome different city defenses (traps), loot the city, become rich. B) Help the defenders, push back the attack, negotiate for peace C) totally avoid the city, try to survive in the surrounding wastelands. Perhaps with some of the attackers giving chase. In the above scenario the GM can map out the general theme of the battle (when does the battering ram breach the gate? when is the special ops attack through the sewers? When does the town catch fire?) and if they choose to stay in the fight they could end up in any of those battles. Or, if they sneak into the city but DON'T fight, they can still get caught up in the different events as these things happen in the back ground. And if they avoid everything, the GM has the "survive in the wilderness" plot as backup.
Other possible missions beyond the four listed: Negotiate: The characters must convince someone to act in a certain direction. Escape: The characters must flee, usually from imprisonment or another ill fate. Investigate: The characters need to solve something (whether it be who-dun-it murder/mystery, or sorting out some political intrigue before it causes something bad to happen). Rescue: Technically a sort of fetch/protect quest, but slightly different. What if it's a family member of the PC who is being held for ransom, or someone else vital that must be saved from certain doom. It may not even need to be punishment of death if the PCs refuse. The threat could be blackmail, exile, or any other sort of punishment for an NPC important to the characters.
On the topic of DMs not giving descriptions - We had come across a village that had been attacked. We walk into the guard tower looking for clues. The DM says it's too dark to see. I reminded him that three of the characters had dark-vision, so then he gave us a more detailed description. To be fair, he was a new DM running a published adventure, so for all I know the "too dark" thing might have been part of the official description.
Yes I had that problem. I did tell them to ask questions, which they didn't mostly answered my questions and then accused me to rewriting their character when they overlooked their folk hero character hadn't done anything deserving of being a Folk Hero. So I did and he then ignored everything going on after all he's playing a Fallen Aasinar Paladin whose mentor died in the prologue and its been explained he's part of an Order of Free Knights and then claims he had no idea he was a Knight. A session zero was needed I just never expected this to go on for so long despite adapting when it did. Let them decide where they were going, threw in some sub plots they then deliberately either discarded or ignored. Was in the throes of setting up a session of downtime to let them sort out where they wanted to go and do rather than follow a scenario they wasn't paying attention to. Then the other DM decided to co-opt the setting despite that doesn't work at least had he asked I would have explained why and set things up so it could work, but he couldn't be bothered to keep his story straight. Ultimately i cared too much and he didn't give a damn it happens.
Don't use quantum ogres. You even kind of say so yourself but contradict yourself there as well. Keep things as you've described them, don't change them around. That also goes for things you might have planned but not told the players yet. Stick to the things as they are, keep them consistent. If the players don't want to go to the tower, tough luck. Let them do other stuff, but don't move the tower around and put it in their way. That sort of thing is taking away the players choices, and they are not stupid, they will notice at some point and simply stop caring. Instead, make your plot interconnected. So if the tower is important, maybe the players find some evidence that points to the tower when they take care of another problem. And soon it will be evident that there is more behind it and that will build their motivation to go and find out. Maybe they even find some information on their journey that helps them figure out what awaits them in the tower. And there might even be a bad choice, and the players have to be allowed to make it. If there is a time issue with the tower, and the players decide to go somewhere else, they will have to deal with what comes with that. That's far more interesting than shoving things around in order to have the players where you want them.
Be careful with this, letting the world progress without player interaction due to lack of interest may often lead to the least interesting scenarios. It often leads to the problem of the world existing independently of the players and lessening their influence and affect on the world. I think "quantum-ogres" are fine in moderation so long as you don't previously contradict information given to the players. They're supposed to be helpful improv tools, but just like any tool in the GMs toolbox csn be used poorly or abused. Most of us do not have enough time to prepare for every eventuality without resorting to either railroading and/or massive improv, both which have severe downsides most of the time. (Railroading ruins the entire point of an rpg and removes all agency from the players, while improv can easily fill your world with inconsistency and plot holes while also being simply difficult to pull off without jarring the narrative. Both are useful tools, but you have to consider the costs of each one). "Quantum-ogres" provide a mix of the two that still allow some measure of choice without requiring you to invent everything from scratch. There's an easy way to do them horribly wrong though. For example, if the players are conciously choosing to avoid something you most likely shouldn't stick it back into their path immediately. It also doesn't really count as being a "quantum-ogre" if they know enough about it to choose to avoid it anyway (since the "state" has been observed at that point). It tends to be more useful to think of "quantum-ogres" in terms of arbitrary choices, that lack consideration and meaning when choosing to move a "quantum-ogre" into the player's path. For example, if the players choose to go to the North side of town instead of some other section, there's no reason to avoid using a "quantum" encounter here, if they just picked North because North is spelled with an N and they like the letter N. Conversely if they know that the South part of town is full of gangsters that start fights so they consequently deliberately choose to go North to avoid them, you should not move the encounter to the North side and use a "quantum-ogre". Another example: random name generators are a type of "quantum ogre". Say your players decide they want to talk to a baker, but the town they're currently in isn't fleshed out enough from your game prep for you to know anymore about the baker other than that there probably is one in a town of this size. So you roll some random things to quickly improv stuff. His name, how many kids, his goals and ideals, etc. This is another type of "quantum ogre", where you're quickly pulling predetermined information together in a random fashion to give yourself a rough outline before you improvise that gaps. Most players in my experience do not mind "quantum-ogres" being presented so long as they still have multiple choices and options and are not forced to confront the "ogre" if they choose to do something else.
@@futuza I think we're in agreement for the most part. My understanding of a quantum ogre is precisely that it is an encounter planned by the GM that can't be avoided (often because the GM loves the idea too much). Improvising a name or other things like that would not fall under that term for me. I still like a living world. I won't advance every little detail, but the world won't be static either, things change, even if the players aren't around. But they can change for the better, if the players make an impact, and they will see that.
I enjoy throwing one (or at very most two) thwarting quests into a game. I believe they are less common and I enjoy that. As a tip, thwarting quests are great if the forces they are thwarting are immensely dangerous. Too dangerous to confront. Otherwise they will fight it, and they need to understand that point first. Example, have a lich approaching a town. They know if it gets there it will summon an army of undead and wipe the town out. Maybe because it did this to the last town and the guards were not able to stop it by force. But they could go ahead of the monster, and destroy a bridge. Set up traps. Warn priests, so they may set up holy barriers. Fun. However, should be part of your main quest as this is time consuming.
I make sure with my games to make sure the PC's are the "main characters" and the plot revolves around them and their backstories. Like before anything I make sure my players have their characters set and then I sculpt their characters around my rough Plotline. I think its worked for me and hope it makes my players feel considered and rooted in the story. Like I want them to feel epic. Sometimes I do feel like I railroad them, but most of the time there is lots of multiple choices along the way from point A to B which do impact the great campaign.
Glad you verified that virgin thing. Almost didn't link this video further! ... Who am I kidding... My players wouldn't escort a banana out of danger... Great vids, keep it up. edit: Have a sub by the way. You deserve it.
About the LARP-Plot: We - small Larp organizer from Germany - have one specific point every time in our plot book: - What if the players utterly fail? Normally we have a large ammount of regular players who play with us plus some newcomers. So we already have a grasp on what we can expect them doing, come up with or accomplish. (Most times they still manage to stun us). But one of our core-rules is: If the players completely fail - to save the king from assassination, to stabilise the time-reality-flux-machine, to lift the curse of the haunted magic library by getting rid of the demon residing there... We have outlined how the campaign changes or what happens. This helps two-fold: First of all, it helps to NOT fall into the pit of armageddon-plots. Meaning: Either the players succeed, or the campaign would need to end. As no orga really wants to end their campaign the players are bound to win, regardless of what they do or don't do. In our adventures, there is a loosing-condition. And most of our players appreciate the pressure. Even if the stakes are lower (if the landed knight get's killed - the realm doesn't crumble down - but he is a really nice guy and host, so we want him to live!) winning IS an accomplishment. Second - it avoids the campaign going haywire, the moment the player really fumble a plot, siding with the demon or whatever. You can manage 'varying grades of success' - but knowing what happens in the worst case, helps to get well rounded plots. We never needed to use this though - as said our players turn out to be really cunning.
You mention going back to earlier videos to learn the difference between story and plot, but I'm not finding it (years worth of great videos makes it a bit difficult). Would you be so kind as to share a link?
The only railroading I do is... Let them hear of increasing problems due to something they skipped. And, when they go back to it... the place is better defended than it would have been earlier.
I usually have "Seasons" for plot structure. Basically, "season one - village is cursed, big bad lives in X, when big bad killed - happens Y, starts season two". And that's kinda it. Then I take the group on a ride, that yes, "the village is cursed, but nobody seems to know what is exactly happening, maybe an old hermit knows it, that lives out of town, but the hermit is gone, though the group finds some bandit armor and a trail of broken bushes, that leads them to a bandit camp, where the hermit is, though he is suffering from severe memory loss and they need a cure, that they can get in village Y, but the medic there needs herbs, that can be found in dungeon G and they find it, and they heal the hermit, and the hermit tells them, that there is an old paladin friend of his, who had some insight on the curse, he lives in X, and the party make it in time to see the paladin being ambushed by enemy type F, that lives in said dungeon, that is connected to the curse, and the paladin tells them about it, and the party FINALLY go to location T to lift the curse, BUT in the process - releasing a powerful lich back into the world, that was trapped there and was the source of the curse and BOOM - season two main bad, the lich, appears". That's kinda how I roll with it :D. ^ - and this is for just the main plot. Side quests for down-time - are important as well. And I tend to give players their own base to play with and expand quite early on (tiny village with 20-ish people / an old fort or whatever the party fancies) for some funsies at the beginning of the session =)
4:44 This also feels like l.a. by night. Just a bunch of rambaling that goes no where. The tires feel like their spinning and siddenly jerks to a new scene.
i fucking love your channel its gonna be my 1st time dm ing and i have changed so much so far in a good way, your advice is in my notes more then matt mercer his advice is great but you really get the in between info i need
1:54 Poor structure (Blurry start / end / middle)
5:48 Weak motivation (Characters not interested in the ongoings)
6:44 Only one thing to do (Railroading / Funneling)
8:04 Weak or contradicting descriptions
10:38 The focus is wrong (Forgetting to include the characters)
13:38 Routine or mundane challenges (Lack of variation)
To me it seems that most of these are often result of not knowing and/or including the characters well enough!
Except: "Weak or contradicting descriptions" which is not so much a sign of "bad plot" but more a sign og "bad GM".
Thank you Thank you Thank you
I really think he should have topic cards, or at least a little graphic on the bottom that tells what point he's on, it would make everything a lot easier to follow!
Thanks for the "short list"...
AND I might posit, rather than accusing the descriptive nonsense on a "bad GM", suggesting it's the result of an "inexperienced" or "unpracticed" GM and encourage us all to show a dose of humble patience while we coach our GM's forward in their aspirations...
I've noticed a fair proclivity in this (AND other) comments sections for complaints about GM's being a scarce commodity in gaming. There's a chance (not a definite charge here exactly) that Players' impatience to call out a GM being "bad" for one or another mistake or misstep in narrative, might lead aspiring and new GM's to the conclusion that they either "deliver incredible material" or "run like scared rabbits from the table"... and go back to being "just a Player"... Cultivating rather than running off is the difficult (but usually more correct) thing to do. ;o)
I love these kind of comments. It's like a useful contents page for the video. Maybe Guy should do this in the description of his videos!
+Kaz Avian > Years back he had such.
But it seems he have dropped using the visual part of the media TH-cam is, to appear more like a radio commentator now.
I once started a game with some kids. It was a quest, where they had to find someone who murdered a rich woman. It was all planned out well, back then I was a player myself and I've already done this quest.
My sister (she was 7 back then) was like: "I search behind the stage where she was killed."
Me: "You see bloody, little Footprints"
Her: "is there a official news board or something in the town?"
Me: "Yes, there is one in the centrum"
Her: "Ok, so I go there and write a note saying "I'm searching for people with small feet as models for my designed shoes"
We rolled the dice. She had luck. The mystery was solved in an hour.
OUR CAMPAIGN NEEDED THREE MONTHS!
The murderer(s), having just finished a job where they ended up tracking blood everywhere, weren't paranoid about someone wanting to look at feet?
@@albertnorman4136 She was in luck?
Nell. Your sister is a genius.
@@albertnorman4136 They probably wouldn't have left footprints if they knew the footprints were there. If they left them and knew about it they most likely either wanted to be caught or would be too stupid to think about it at all, lol
And then the footprints clapped.
I´d like to talk about poor description. Some time ago a came to the conclusion that it is not only vital how you describe things like for example a room but it matters a lot in which order you describe the items in the room. In my past i tend to describe the most important Items/persons in the room first. Then i startet to realise that might not be the smartest move.
For example: My players walked into an office where a woman was kneeling in her own blood. Head turned towards the ceeling. Her eyes where blue and colourfull smoke came out of her mouth. My players got very exited cause the where looking for that person, wondering what had happen to her. Everything else i described in this room was lost in this exitement.
Sure, that would be the first thing you would notice as a person, walking to that room, but it will focus the attention of your players directly to that scene. They might not listen to your describtion concerning the rest of the room.
At my table I try to structure my describtions from mudane to special features. This helps me to avoid the nedd to describe something over and over again.
This is a actually a great tip that I will for sure try out. Thank you!
In writing there is something called the dramatic sentence, I believe. Where you always save the most climactic portion of a sentence for the end. It has more impact that way. Example of not using the dramatic sentence: "The space station exploded and the characters looked on in shock at the loss of what had been their home for so long." Using the dramatic sentence instead: "The characters looked on in shock as the space station, what had been their home for so long, exploded." This way it builds to the story beat and it can sink in instead of burying the lead with more trivial aspects of description and thought.
@@Melvin7727 There's a tendency lately, proliferated by Tracy Hickman's XDM, that you should NEVER read aloud the boxed text. "Make it your own," they say, but unless you're an established fantasy author, why WOULDN'T you use the boxed text?
"Hopefully the building's not on fire... And if it is, let them change the description later."
LOL!
I like involving choice in my games, not just a single solution to way of doing stuff, by making my players engange in direct change of the outcome of everything that's within their reach.
I remember a game of Call of Cthulhu, where they found themselves going through deep twisting tunnels below a city, when they suddenly find that the final door before they meet the cult they were looking for is actually the pulverized body of an old enemy they faced before, whose body was reshaped to have the look and sturdiness of a wooden door. It still had its conscience and could form a mouth to talk to the group.
There they talked to him for a while and I had planned for them to destroy it in order to go through, but they actually felt sorry for the guy once they finally got to have a chat with him and found a way to actually unhinge the door which made it dissolve into dust.
The guy's conscience was still intact and was able to talk to them despite it's condition. They collected the dust into a leather bag and carried him through that game and turned into an NPC from where players could ask about the myths and magic stuff. It was completely unexpected but such an amazing resolution.
I couldn't agree more. One of things that I like to do when giving my players an obstacle is recap a few things that happened in previous sessions, in case they forgot.
Then say ok. You have choice A, choice B, and choice C based on what you learned from NPCs X Y & Z. Or you could go off on your own and do something else entirely. So if they want to be creative. They can be. If they can't think of something, then they still have multiple ways forward.
But also have into consideration multiple outcomes. In the next session my players are going to face a choice that will affect the whole comunity they're living in and the essence of their characters themselves. And it's completely clear that it's their choice on what's going to happen. And even if they choose one, they'll still have the chance to stir the result of their decision to a middle ground or something.
Thinking of different outcomes to a situation helps making the players feel their actions have consequences that can shape the world.
Yes, it is such situations where it is fun to be the Keeper / GM: to see what fascinating ideas the players come up with!
I think CoC to be wonderful creator of such, as the "kill and destroy everything" monotony D&D have simply do not work in CoC.
those are the best situations. unfortunately, very hard if not impossible to recreate
RuneQuest is also great for that. I find it the perfect balance between CoC and DnD
The first question I ask is "Did I write it"
If the answer is yes, then I know it is bad
That's what these videos are for, improving your writing. My first self-written adventure at the age of 16 was terrible, full of inconsistencies, deus ex tropes and without explanations how the PCs got there or who this random NPC is who just pops up out of nowhere. You learn over time. Being a critical book reader or TV watcher also helps. Avoiding Hollywood's worst tropes helped me get better at this.
Type it next time.
Fun fact: It is believed that "Virgin Blood" does not actually refer to ones virginity in a sexual sense but actually refers to if ones blood has been used in a ritual before. As in your blood is a virgin to occult rituals.
it'd be too easy then, you'd just have to fetch anybody
@@mistery8363 unless the town "sacrifices" all new born so you're in search of a baby that only one person knows was born..
maybe godss lime their souls seasoned, idk
@@mistery8363 I mean, if we're pretending these occult rituals are just another element of reality, there's no particular reason that their components should be especially onerous to obtain.
noice
(ive litterally used my own blood in ritual so yeah)
Player: "What does my character see?"
GM: "Nothing, you're blind"
GM: "Nothing, youre dead."
htbaggm: are your plots bad?
me, before i've even clicked on the video: Yeah
Mood
When you mentioned making sure they were not virgins...by moving them over to a nunnery and not by other means. I was already thinking Charisma check.
I was just laughing on that moment. I would cry so hard if my PCs would've defamed the whole village just to prevent greater evil
SealOfTheTime But if they charm them to bed that's a win win....right? You know for the greater good and all that lol
*PC rolls a 20 on charisma charm check*
Vestigial Virgin "well.... if it will save the world...."
Plot twist: The PCs are virgins as well.
DM: "OK look, I'll let you do this, BUT only as long as it's the villagers doing the horizontal mambo. You can't use your abilities & the circumstances to justify taking advantage of the situation like that."
PC's think that they got one over on the villainous wizard while sneaking in a little T&A to their D&D.
Villain: "Welp, looks like you virgin PC's will just have to do. You're all going to LOVE my beholder friend."
I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going. ^_^
Guy ... You are almost always talking and relating to roleplay through the perspective of an evil driven plot ( the bad guy wants something and the PCs react, or try to anticipate etc.) You had a singular video sometime ago talking about good driven plots and you compared those with the mission of the Templar Knights. Could you do more videos for those of us that prefer good plots over the evil ones? As much as for the DMs out here but also for the players. I find it that not many people know how to grasp a good driven plot (even veterans of the RPGs) and it would be verrrry handy to just link them to you ;) Thank you for TH-cam-ing
So shall it be :) 2019 - the year of the good plot. But in all seriousness you are correct. And I shall attempt to do it!
0.0 Did not expect such a prompt answer! Let us make is a reality, uuum fantasy ... Fantastical reality, year of the good plot! Keep up the Great work!
Doesn't the whole concept of: Someone (ANYONE; good, bad, neutral) wants something badly, but is having difficulty getting it. Cover all of it and then some though? Wouldn't it just be a matter of switching the focus of who is doing what and changing their intentions from bad to good? Skeletor wants the death ray to destroy the world. Skeletor has the death ray and He-man wants to get the death ray so he can destroy it, so it can't be used for evil.
I'm actually also interested in how you define a good vs an evil driven plot. I'm assuming it's the difference between "The BBEG is attacking the towers that keep the barrier around our kingdom up, go stop him" vs "The towers that keep the barrier around our kingdom up are failing, go find out why and fix the problem" (where the problem ends up being something like the ley lines feeding the towers are drying up and you have to restore them, but the cause is natural and not some evil force restricting the them)?
The thing you can take into account is that evil vs. good plots is kind of ambiguous. Not even talking about perspective, look at goals. Evil Villain 67 wants to dominate the world and rule it. Benevolent King 248 wants to unite all nations under one banner. And be the guy who owns the banner.
So as opposed to looking at evil vs. good, set your plots (within the scope of the idea) to be players vs. the individual with goals that need to be stopped.
There's sort of like a 2x2 grid you can think of if you want to boil it down.
Evil Villain Doing Bag
Evil Villain Doing Good
Good Villain doing Bad
Good Villain doing Good.
Everything but the last one is self explanatory. At surface level, you want someone who wants good aligned with players interest, doing bad deeds to get there.
We want to build a wall for the city to keep monsters out so we enslaved the goblins to do it.
Everything is completely relative and applicable to the reverse if you broaden your perspective just a wee bit.
I didn't realize by browsing D&D help videos I'd discover a genius mind for storytelling and character building in fantasy universes. Bravo sir. Amazing channel.
I had a GM screw over another player and me. "In the middle of the room, there is sparkling gem." Naturally we both made a mad dash for it.
".... Floating. As soon as you pluck the gem out of the air, an unseen wire goes taught and you both fall into a pit."
Like anyone in their right mind is going to go anywhere near a gem dangling above the ground! He just wanted to clobber us.
One of my favorite plot device is the big bad thanks the pc. *Your attempt to thwart me was exactly what I needed.*
The vampire taunts the party. "Thank you for moving that young lady. Her home was annoyingly warded. Now if you'll excuse me I'm having an old friend for dinner."
The players attack, but it's just an illusion and it's now a race against time.
And of course sometimes you want their plan to succeed and allow them to trap your villain. Otherwise you'll discourage your players from thinking outside the box. Something that I ways encourage.
cert2b Nothing like trapping a villain only to have the need to rely on them to defeat a seemingly more powerful one only to be betrayed by the original villain who escapes only to become even stronger now that he has what the "common enemy" had...
"Ah, but her doctor that is ze plan. Now that they know the plan, they will plan around our plan. So we will plan our their plan that they planning around our plan!" - quote from one of the greatest series ever made.
cert2b
"Your brilliance knows... no bounds."
Jordan Hope "And besides, we have one thing zey sorely lack.... ZEPPELIN'S!"
I always have to watch these videos in parts. Not because they're hard to watch, but because I keep on having to go and write something down for later reference. Thank you for relentlessly inspiring me!
Thank you for this channel! I’m not subscribed but I’ve been watching each video because I just started my first DnD game ever. I’m the GM and I made a home brew for my friends to play. At first it was a little difficult to get my friends into it but we just finished only our second session and we already had some funny inside jokes, unique character development, and now my friends are curious about the secrets that lurk in my world. Once again I can’t thank you enough!
I want to thank you for all the great tips, tricks and explaintions. I have just finished my first pathfinder adventure as a GM. I was really insecure about my GMing and thanks to all that I have learned on this channel I think I will continue GMing more games. Thank you one more time
Thanks for this great overview! I would have added one thing, though, which frequently happens, even in officially published adventures: Don't rely on magic or technology to fix plot holes! "How did he get here so fast? - Uh, his ship has an experimental superwarp drive that can reach your planet in only a day."
Also, remember which magic or technology is available to players, otherwise they will just teleport out of your carefully designed death trap, and all the planning and excitement is ruined.
I've found the most satisfying thing as dm is when you arn't the one making the plot and the players are. Basically my style has boiled down to making a world with quests and a bunch of villians doing stuff and they can pursue whatever goal they want.
Exactly!
The PCs are (should be) the leading roles.
The story is the story of the PCs.
And it make it more fun to be GM when the PCs can figure out to do things on their own!
Thats exactly how alot of my Legend of the Five Rings sessions have evolved
I have a problem with this metod because the majority of my players are either newbies or shy, or even both, só they don't know what they want to do or just don't Interact much on the table. I don't do linear campaings but still... some times given a lot of options overload some of then, so as a DM you need to introduct plot línes.
@@iuric.528 Most satisfying is not always available. Even when they are shy though, hopefully they will over time become a little more open.
I've watched a lot of your videos, liked them all, and found this one especially helpful. Thank you so much for putting these out. So many table top TH-camrs are focused on systems, hacks, and gimmicks; it's so refreshing to get actual good advice from someone who recognizes the depth of the challenge if game mastering. Thank you!
I agree with the points made in this video, however I have a caveat I'd like to present for not changing description: Your players are in a dungeon in a demi-plane bound by non-euclidean geometry
"I like it here. I want to stay."
As someone doing their first level 1 to 17+ campaign, a lot of these issues are ones I try to stay cognizant of. Keeping up variety during a long campaign, and making sure the plot stays tight while players have choices and large impacts on the story is a tight rope to walk.
This is awesome. Im a new gm/dm and i needed this. Im bad at doing the plot cuz my players are chaotic and i get overwhelmed by them. And i lose motivation. This helps so much. Thank you.
Firstly, very nice content, I almost never watch RPG YT channels but your rambling is really enjoyable :)
About players outsmarting villains and stopping plot: give credit, where credit is due. Alternative enemy plans can give impression that whatever they do, villain always finds some other way anyway. Congratulate them, improvise ending for this session and plan the next one better. I feel like my players feel appreciated if I play fair with villain resources/abilities.
Great! The best part of game mastering is dealing with what the players do. It’s great to fit the stories that they want to tell into your overall idea. I really enjoy it.
Cultist turning Carpenter was awesome! I think I will have a con artist next game, who will "change his ways" as a recuring npc.
Yes, agreed!
It is a real good breaker of the "Routine or mundane challenges" monotony (talked about last in the video) to have such an unusual outcome!
That's just reversed jesus
I feel like you are talking to me directly 🤦♀️
Thanks for laying it out so succinctly
As a first time DM I really appreciate this video to check my campaign against. I must say I'm feeling more confident now, I think I've done quite well.
Jaxstrix
Good luck!
My first time gm-ing soon too.
Oh thank you, but I've been running my game since January. It's just nice to be able to gauge what I've done so far against the independent opinion in this video. Best of luck with your campaign, I'm sure it will be great.
Very helpful and informative vid. It made me realize that I was gonna make about all the mistakes in the campaign I'm preparing to start dming. Now it hopefully will be a more open plot and enjoyable game
I had a loose plot I was hoping would grow with some background info to write things that would interest the characters but all I got was guy who couldn't remember his past, a dwarf monk that wanted to find the best rock in the world, and a kid who just wanted to beat things up. :/
You need to change the focus of your campaign. Don't go for deep story and character exploration and development, go for an easier and more light story about just having a good time. If throught the sessions they start developing something more then you can change gears into something more akin their taste. It's not just for players to evolve and react to what the dm's throw at them, but also the dm's reactiong accordingly to what the players are and do.
Karanthaneos That was my plan. Unfortunately work got in my way of running and the guy with no memory had a hissy fit and stopped coming so my party went from two to one. :/
Manumitier I talked to that guy with no memories and he didn't care for my suggestion on why he was might be a noble so far from home and what not. He wasn't happy with it. So I scrapped any hope of that and just focused on the main scenerio. Didn't work out anyways since I had too much work and not enough play time. :(
Bad luck buddy :c
Karanthaneos Yep. It sure was. I knew when I agreed to run something that I was going to end up not able to show. It was summer and I worked a landscaping job. When the guys got tired and went home early, I was still there with my boss trying to make the project times on time. :(
I started my first campaign with a prison break. I said that each player got to decide their backstory and why they were in prison, then I had an NPC wander over to the jail cells and trade beer for stories. This was followed by a jail break (your video on that helped a lot) and session 1 was a great success. I’m currently writing for session two now.
I have a small problem in my campaign: the players are NOT sharing the information they pick up and then forgetting about them because they don't discuss it as a group. I'm actually tempted to abandon the handouts altogether and just feed them info through NPCs.
Edit; As I was typing, you literally mentioned that :D
You could use the "What do you want IP / XP / WhateverProgressPointsTheSystemUses for?" question.
Then they learn that if they forget things then they do not get points for them!
Lars Dahl
My man what's that? I didn't quite get it.
You mean they get XP for investigating and discovering locations or plots?
That's an interesting idea but I'm not sure I should punish them :D they're having fun at the moment
make the information important like a password or a magic word to activate or deactivate something etc
You are not punishing them for forgetting things, you are rewarding then for remembering things!
(It is a matter of perspective!)
Guy's skewering of LARP predetermined outcomes was PERFECT! I don't attend many one-shot LARPs now as a result.
Well-played on that fire alarm. Brilliant.
Fantastic advice! and to add to it. I find that if Players have developed character motivations then its easy to find ways to integrate those motivations into the plot. Or if the players are mature and have a clear goal for their character then they will often time create the plot all on their own provided that they have communicated their intent well with the GM ahead of time.
As a GM who's just starting out (Created a campaign over the last couple years off an on, and ran my session 0 and 1 over the last couple weeks), my biggest excitement is to see how the story turns out! I've created a world with a backstory and some current very important events, invited my players and introduced them to the anticipation of one of these events and to create characters who's backstories are (for them unknowingly) strongly connected to this event, and I know the motivations and current undertakings of the important NPC's/villians.
The absolute joy I got to feel already in session 1 where PCX cast speak with animals and got a hint of a very important clue from PCY's pet about PCY's connection to the underlying main event! It was worth all of the hours spent creating it :D And wow! The intense increase in motivation to flesh out the world even more as soon as the PC's put their feet in it and add their own sparks of imagination - "Oh, you were imprisoned in that town because you accidentally poisoned the nobility, and that's why you would rather avoid that place?" - Well, guess who's creating a news article about what happened in that town as a consequence of that >=D Mehehe!! I fear this can become addictive x)
@12:00 I laughed way too much at this cause I know what my players would do xD
Yeah, we know the ordinary murder hobos will have killed them all.
sure, that's what he meant... lol
Sleep with all the virgins
Organize Woodstock?
Lol
Your videos are so helpful. Either I learn something I hadn't considered before, or I gain confidence because I'm already doing the things you're suggesting.
This one's a confidence builder. I picked out a few good tips, but for the most part, my plots going great!
One of your most helpful videos, thank you!
Also, I think you touched on this here, but could you do a video on session 1 (like setting the scene, introducing PCs, etc.)? I’ve found it’s an absurdly rare thing for people to talk about.
Anyway, again, great work on this one :)
Yes, agreed.
Could be nice to get some more focus at "Session Zero", "Prelude" and "Session One", as understanding how to use those when starting out a role playing campaign, will increase the chances of success a lot!
My game revolves around retrieving specific relics of the past on each adventure. This helps a lot in keeping it from seeming repetitive!
"10:38 The focus is wrong (Forgetting to include the characters)"
Brings back memories of the Avatar trilogy of adventures: Shadowdale-Tantras-Waterdeep (late 80s). Based on the novels, the NPCs did all the meaningful things, while the PCs were just tagging along.
I've worked at it for years to get to what amounts to the same concept - "someone wants something badly" - and am glad to know I'm not alone. By figuring out what the NPCs (be they ally, villain or just one of the merchants they take their loot to) want, I find there is no shortage of things for the PCs to get involved with. Then I let them take the wheel, and build off in the direction they head, and onto the parts that they show the most interest in.
12:10 - I ROFLed in the office today with tears in my eyes :D Thank you sir!
I have rewatched this 5 times. Its never getting old.
I use the Cone of Uncertainty principle in my DM planning. The further out, the less certain you are about where the story will go. So, like a cone, the uncertainty "widens" as you travel away from the narrow end. Thus, more planning on the narrower end, less to none on the wider end. And always be prepared to pivot!
Thanks for saying u strictly meant plot and not story. Gonna move on to your village layout tutorial now!
“Hopefully the building’s not on fire, and if it is, let them change it later.” 😂
I'm still working on this, but I've been working to improve my games by having an overarching plot line but having branching choices and changes to the world for better or worse depending on what the players do or do not do. For example okay you ignore the doppelganger hive in favor of opening an escape route from the city. The result being more doppelgangers around but less civilians in trouble and a viable escape route from the city for the party.
The big thing with all this is to help the players come to know that they have options, what those options are, and the consequences of those options.
In my experience this gives them goals to achieve that help them work out the overall end goal of the campaign, creates some pressure to give the party actions meaning and urgency, and also gives direction and a sense of accomplishment as they go.
This also helps create a player driven story.
Oh my word! "The PCs made sure there were no more virgins... By taking them to a nunnery and no other method" 🤣 I started laughing in the Walmart checkout lane. Now I look psychotic. That was hilarious 😆
Brilliant. I've sen a few of these vids now. Probably the best RPG advice on the net.
These videos are so helpful in clearing up story smut. Thank you and is it Thursday yet?
This is great advice for a new DM/GM.
Awsome video.👍
Best advise for proper descriptions I have is 1)use all the senses especially our primary five: Sound, sight, sent touch and taste. Starting with visual then sound. Touch in this case will include: temperature, wind, eerie feeling, etc. then scent. Finally in rare cases add taste particularly with really really strong odors. 2) Start with the dimensions of the room (length width and ceiling height. 3) next describe the construction : What is it made from? Style of construction? Current state of repair? 4) then features and details in the room itself: such as but not limited to: Artwork on walls or floor, obvious traps, furniture, creatures and any other details any character sees Without a perception check (of some kind) 4) now ADD extra details anyone with really high passive perception or investigation (or equivalent in the system of RPG you are playing in) would notice. Make a point that ONLY those characters immediately notice this. 5) remember to include tip 1 for tips 2-4. 6) add more only as players move closer, and make perception or investigation checks unless they are confused then repeat or rephrase only the details you have already mentioned answering questions about details they should have noticed but you neglected or forgot to include. Such as but not limited too: details about the floor, if anything was on the table, if anything was on the bookshelf, the colour of the glowing magical rune, etc.
I hope this helps someone.
Great video thanks!
One time while running a game I had the players ask me how big the town was. It was completely irrelevant to the game and I blurted out 1 million which was insanely too large. That of course got derision from the players and ended my carefully plotted game right there. I will never make that mistake again. Now I plan out town sizes, and NPCs and make up important NPCs. I also found the names in the back of Xanathars much more useful than I initially thought. Nothing ruins a game faster when having a whole town of villagers named Bob.
12:25 I was working on my campaign while listening so I thought Despicable Me started playing somehow, lol.
Good video. One thing I somewhat disagree with is (if I understand your point) is that the PCs must be able to determine a result by themselves, not requring an NPC to participate. I think PCs realising that they lack some skill or characteristic and therefore need to seek out help can be a good part of the plot - finding, hiring, persuading or coercing an NPC - who may have antithetical views or backgrounds to the party can provide an interesting part of a plot. But perhaps I misunderstand the point.
You misunderstood. He was talking about having your PCs not interact at all with the plot. In your example the PCs are interacting and engaged in finding, hiring, persuading or coercing. They are actively doing something to achieve something. This is good. An example of what he meant is having an NPC do what the PCs in your example are doing while your PCs watch on the sidelines, not interacting, just watching.
I write my stories ABOUT the players characters, I dont slot my players into a generic story that can fit any players.
I always write my stories after I know the characters involved.
The best piece of advice in this video is just:
- Move things you have already made to where your PCs are headed.
If you just take stuff and put it in front of a path they picked out themselves, they'll think they've found it, and go, "Wow, you really have written stuff for every single place!"
Session zero, first sessions focus on the characters themselves while adding a bit of information about the big plot
With a few sessions they will say "Wait, these things are all linked, lets solve it" XD
One thing I did for the start of the game for my group is haveing them all think of a reason why they would be on the boat pulling into the port in the "starting city" and it helped me make up plot lines for the players and progression of direction then I can place things all the map and I leave the " PCs" map with out things on it and add have a list of things to add and plot them on my map later
The moment I subed to this channel was after statement, "Some kind of alarm. Hope the building is not on fire."
That part about the virgins reminded me of a bumper sticker I saw about 30 years ago. it read, "THE VILLAIN" in the middle. Around the corners, "Castles Plundered" "Dungeons Stocked" "Heros Eliminated" "Virginity Cured". And at the bottom middle, "No Job is too easy. No Fee too outrageous".
Great video! Love your topics
I'm glad do all roads lead to rome style I have a start and an end and in between that I have a few bits for them to do but I prefer to ask the "what do you do next?" and bounce off that get there brains working make there characters feel central, I'd love a sit down and chat with you just finished a full lvl20 going into epic lvl dnd 3.5 campaign
As I was watching this I realized my old DM did literally everyone of these things
"When in doubt. Ninjas attack." A decent rule for handling the rambling. But, my long-running campaigns generally consist of loosely celebrated modules, and I'd probalby have a Star Wars style 'reward' scene. "Congratulations. You saved the world. There are no adventures left. Good day."
YeahIdothedescriptionchangessometime.
Because I don't keep it clear in my head.
My favorite villain plan? "Strangle the PCs for breaking his previous plan." But, another thing to NEVER, EVER, EVER have the PCs do?
Just ignore changes. Don't have the villain come up with 15 virgins ANYWAY as an aside. At the least, have them come across a razed village.
...Be careful posting at midnight, people.
Description wise, my game master will give a very simple description of a room when the player enters, and will give more detail according to your perception rolls. If you roll low you get a very simple description, if you roll high you get a detailed description of your surroundings, and I kinda like it
Love your opening graphic
Here's a very simple heuristic: Does your 'plot' go into detail on events that have yet to happen? Does it assume the motivations of the PCs? Does it do _anything_ that denies the players the ability to make their own decisions and reap the rewards (or penalties) thereof?
Then it may or may not be a fine plot for a book, but it's a lousy plot for an RPG.
I like the quick c.y.a. regarding the 'make sure there are no virgins' solution....
Not what my players would do
"Hopefully the rooms not on fire,but if it is let them change the description". Lmfao!
One thing I've thought is how about blending types of missions. Protecting the Princess also is a thwarting because it disrupts Head Evil Guy's plan.
I actually had a DM who completely changed the setting/ plot because he thought it would be more interesting for him. I know this because he admitted this directly to me. The same GM also was into Bring in a small group of players (3 in this case) and let them build a party relationship. Then throw in new players (it got up to over 10 possibly 20 at one point). Observe how the players responded. The game fell apart.
I actually like the idea of the BBEG becoming a carpenter after having his plans fall through
My idea on how to structure a plot:
Have at least 3 main "plots" that intertwine in some way. If the players decide to walk away from one plot they simply walk into the next one.
eg
The players start their story on the road to the next town. But as they approach the next town they realize it is under siege. Do they:
A) help the attackers, overcome different city defenses (traps), loot the city, become rich.
B) Help the defenders, push back the attack, negotiate for peace
C) totally avoid the city, try to survive in the surrounding wastelands. Perhaps with some of the attackers giving chase.
In the above scenario the GM can map out the general theme of the battle (when does the battering ram breach the gate? when is the special ops attack through the sewers? When does the town catch fire?) and if they choose to stay in the fight they could end up in any of those battles.
Or, if they sneak into the city but DON'T fight, they can still get caught up in the different events as these things happen in the back ground.
And if they avoid everything, the GM has the "survive in the wilderness" plot as backup.
Damn... who did your intro that was well made.
Great as always - solid advice
Other possible missions beyond the four listed:
Negotiate: The characters must convince someone to act in a certain direction.
Escape: The characters must flee, usually from imprisonment or another ill fate.
Investigate: The characters need to solve something (whether it be who-dun-it murder/mystery, or sorting out some political intrigue before it causes something bad to happen).
Rescue: Technically a sort of fetch/protect quest, but slightly different. What if it's a family member of the PC who is being held for ransom, or someone else vital that must be saved from certain doom. It may not even need to be punishment of death if the PCs refuse. The threat could be blackmail, exile, or any other sort of punishment for an NPC important to the characters.
On the topic of DMs not giving descriptions -
We had come across a village that had been attacked. We walk into the guard tower looking for clues. The DM says it's too dark to see. I reminded him that three of the characters had dark-vision, so then he gave us a more detailed description. To be fair, he was a new DM running a published adventure, so for all I know the "too dark" thing might have been part of the official description.
Yes I had that problem.
I did tell them to ask questions, which they didn't mostly answered my questions and then accused me to rewriting their character when they overlooked their folk hero character hadn't done anything deserving of being a Folk Hero.
So I did and he then ignored everything going on after all he's playing a Fallen Aasinar Paladin whose mentor died in the prologue and its been explained he's part of an Order of Free Knights and then claims he had no idea he was a Knight.
A session zero was needed I just never expected this to go on for so long despite adapting when it did.
Let them decide where they were going, threw in some sub plots they then deliberately either discarded or ignored.
Was in the throes of setting up a session of downtime to let them sort out where they wanted to go and do rather than follow a scenario they wasn't paying attention to.
Then the other DM decided to co-opt the setting despite that doesn't work at least had he asked I would have explained why and set things up so it could work, but he couldn't be bothered to keep his story straight.
Ultimately i cared too much and he didn't give a damn it happens.
this was super helpful!! thank you!
Amazing video, very helpful!
lol at 4:52 ur eyes follow the text right to left as it shoots out onto your bottom banner. totally by coincidence!
Don't use quantum ogres. You even kind of say so yourself but contradict yourself there as well. Keep things as you've described them, don't change them around. That also goes for things you might have planned but not told the players yet. Stick to the things as they are, keep them consistent.
If the players don't want to go to the tower, tough luck. Let them do other stuff, but don't move the tower around and put it in their way. That sort of thing is taking away the players choices, and they are not stupid, they will notice at some point and simply stop caring.
Instead, make your plot interconnected. So if the tower is important, maybe the players find some evidence that points to the tower when they take care of another problem. And soon it will be evident that there is more behind it and that will build their motivation to go and find out. Maybe they even find some information on their journey that helps them figure out what awaits them in the tower.
And there might even be a bad choice, and the players have to be allowed to make it. If there is a time issue with the tower, and the players decide to go somewhere else, they will have to deal with what comes with that. That's far more interesting than shoving things around in order to have the players where you want them.
Be careful with this, letting the world progress without player interaction due to lack of interest may often lead to the least interesting scenarios. It often leads to the problem of the world existing independently of the players and lessening their influence and affect on the world. I think "quantum-ogres" are fine in moderation so long as you don't previously contradict information given to the players. They're supposed to be helpful improv tools, but just like any tool in the GMs toolbox csn be used poorly or abused. Most of us do not have enough time to prepare for every eventuality without resorting to either railroading and/or massive improv, both which have severe downsides most of the time. (Railroading ruins the entire point of an rpg and removes all agency from the players, while improv can easily fill your world with inconsistency and plot holes while also being simply difficult to pull off without jarring the narrative. Both are useful tools, but you have to consider the costs of each one). "Quantum-ogres" provide a mix of the two that still allow some measure of choice without requiring you to invent everything from scratch. There's an easy way to do them horribly wrong though. For example, if the players are conciously choosing to avoid something you most likely shouldn't stick it back into their path immediately. It also doesn't really count as being a "quantum-ogre" if they know enough about it to choose to avoid it anyway (since the "state" has been observed at that point). It tends to be more useful to think of "quantum-ogres" in terms of arbitrary choices, that lack consideration and meaning when choosing to move a "quantum-ogre" into the player's path. For example, if the players choose to go to the North side of town instead of some other section, there's no reason to avoid using a "quantum" encounter here, if they just picked North because North is spelled with an N and they like the letter N. Conversely if they know that the South part of town is full of gangsters that start fights so they consequently deliberately choose to go North to avoid them, you should not move the encounter to the North side and use a "quantum-ogre". Another example: random name generators are a type of "quantum ogre". Say your players decide they want to talk to a baker, but the town they're currently in isn't fleshed out enough from your game prep for you to know anymore about the baker other than that there probably is one in a town of this size. So you roll some random things to quickly improv stuff. His name, how many kids, his goals and ideals, etc. This is another type of "quantum ogre", where you're quickly pulling predetermined information together in a random fashion to give yourself a rough outline before you improvise that gaps. Most players in my experience do not mind "quantum-ogres" being presented so long as they still have multiple choices and options and are not forced to confront the "ogre" if they choose to do something else.
@@futuza I think we're in agreement for the most part. My understanding of a quantum ogre is precisely that it is an encounter planned by the GM that can't be avoided (often because the GM loves the idea too much). Improvising a name or other things like that would not fall under that term for me.
I still like a living world. I won't advance every little detail, but the world won't be static either, things change, even if the players aren't around. But they can change for the better, if the players make an impact, and they will see that.
I enjoy throwing one (or at very most two) thwarting quests into a game. I believe they are less common and I enjoy that. As a tip, thwarting quests are great if the forces they are thwarting are immensely dangerous. Too dangerous to confront. Otherwise they will fight it, and they need to understand that point first.
Example, have a lich approaching a town. They know if it gets there it will summon an army of undead and wipe the town out. Maybe because it did this to the last town and the guards were not able to stop it by force. But they could go ahead of the monster, and destroy a bridge. Set up traps. Warn priests, so they may set up holy barriers.
Fun. However, should be part of your main quest as this is time consuming.
I make sure with my games to make sure the PC's are the "main characters" and the plot revolves around them and their backstories. Like before anything I make sure my players have their characters set and then I sculpt their characters around my rough Plotline. I think its worked for me and hope it makes my players feel considered and rooted in the story. Like I want them to feel epic. Sometimes I do feel like I railroad them, but most of the time there is lots of multiple choices along the way from point A to B which do impact the great campaign.
Glad you verified that virgin thing. Almost didn't link this video further! ... Who am I kidding... My players wouldn't escort a banana out of danger... Great vids, keep it up.
edit: Have a sub by the way. You deserve it.
An excellent advice video. Thank you.
About the LARP-Plot:
We - small Larp organizer from Germany - have one specific point every time in our plot book:
- What if the players utterly fail?
Normally we have a large ammount of regular players who play with us plus some newcomers. So we already have a grasp on what we can expect them doing, come up with or accomplish. (Most times they still manage to stun us).
But one of our core-rules is: If the players completely fail - to save the king from assassination, to stabilise the time-reality-flux-machine, to lift the curse of the haunted magic library by getting rid of the demon residing there... We have outlined how the campaign changes or what happens.
This helps two-fold: First of all, it helps to NOT fall into the pit of armageddon-plots. Meaning: Either the players succeed, or the campaign would need to end. As no orga really wants to end their campaign the players are bound to win, regardless of what they do or don't do.
In our adventures, there is a loosing-condition. And most of our players appreciate the pressure. Even if the stakes are lower (if the landed knight get's killed - the realm doesn't crumble down - but he is a really nice guy and host, so we want him to live!) winning IS an accomplishment.
Second - it avoids the campaign going haywire, the moment the player really fumble a plot, siding with the demon or whatever.
You can manage 'varying grades of success' - but knowing what happens in the worst case, helps to get well rounded plots.
We never needed to use this though - as said our players turn out to be really cunning.
You mention going back to earlier videos to learn the difference between story and plot, but I'm not finding it (years worth of great videos makes it a bit difficult). Would you be so kind as to share a link?
I like your videos Guy. Keep them coming.
The only railroading I do is...
Let them hear of increasing problems due to something they skipped.
And, when they go back to it... the place is better defended than it would have been earlier.
I'd just like to hear more about the Knight in the Dark Field...
At 9:25 Whenever I screw up and the players catch me I just chuckle. "That's right He WAS wearing armor" I can do the tap dance later.
What about a fifth mission type, exploration/discovery mission? That also becomes a protect/thwart mission.
I usually have "Seasons" for plot structure. Basically, "season one - village is cursed, big bad lives in X, when big bad killed - happens Y, starts season two". And that's kinda it. Then I take the group on a ride, that yes, "the village is cursed, but nobody seems to know what is exactly happening, maybe an old hermit knows it, that lives out of town, but the hermit is gone, though the group finds some bandit armor and a trail of broken bushes, that leads them to a bandit camp, where the hermit is, though he is suffering from severe memory loss and they need a cure, that they can get in village Y, but the medic there needs herbs, that can be found in dungeon G and they find it, and they heal the hermit, and the hermit tells them, that there is an old paladin friend of his, who had some insight on the curse, he lives in X, and the party make it in time to see the paladin being ambushed by enemy type F, that lives in said dungeon, that is connected to the curse, and the paladin tells them about it, and the party FINALLY go to location T to lift the curse, BUT in the process - releasing a powerful lich back into the world, that was trapped there and was the source of the curse and BOOM - season two main bad, the lich, appears". That's kinda how I roll with it :D.
^ - and this is for just the main plot. Side quests for down-time - are important as well. And I tend to give players their own base to play with and expand quite early on (tiny village with 20-ish people / an old fort or whatever the party fancies) for some funsies at the beginning of the session =)
loving ur glasses! they have great shape.
4:44
This also feels like l.a. by night. Just a bunch of rambaling that goes no where. The tires feel like their spinning and siddenly jerks to a new scene.
i fucking love your channel its gonna be my 1st time dm ing and i have changed so much so far in a good way, your advice is in my notes more then matt mercer his advice is great but you really get the in between info i need
im using this guide to evaluate my real life and make major decisions that will ripple into the materium
Great video! Thanks!