1.) Gaming journalism is terrible and should be boycotted by all gamers 2.) Aim assist = participation trophy Who has ever benefited from a participation trophy? 3.) If the computer/mouse are better at aiming than consoles, then consoles need to step the EFFFF up. People should be buying a PC over consoles anyways. Consoles are basically poorly made PCs with a bunch of fake hype surrounding them. I get if you are in a poor country and getting a used console is the only way you're going to game, but if you actually have a choice, then PC wins every time.
@@NathanRFMuir just skip to the part he chats after the stream is over.. U want HIM to start a podcast because U cant sit through his stream huh...INTERESTING
@@aaronrajadurai1167 well yeah him and many others that have complicated job times and maybe are busy or just in general so a few years from now someone can find out about him and really like his viewpoints and wanna see some more of his stance’s on topics and with podcast they’d be able to do just that
honestly if they would just get rid of aim assist in all competitive aspects of fps games i'm sure the community would adjust accordingly. r6 isn't an easy game to be good at, and it's the perfect example that aim isn't everything.
@@acurry8569 but it's also low TTK and angle and lane based. If there was an immense tracking involved it would be potato city. FOV and actual character model size matters a lot primarily because of the dead zone issues controllers face.
The other part that few people ever mention is that aim assist strength usually depends on developer and game. Some games have stronger aim assist than others
yeah rogue companys aim assist was broken when the game released but they fixed it. Also people on MKB overestimate aim assist a lot IMO. They act like it does all the work but there's still skill required. Each have some strengths depending on the situation. MKBs ability to flick. get precise headshots, snap targets at high speeds, cant be matched by a controller.
“It’s almost like you’re comparing apples to oranges,” explained Mandryk, who, along with her colleagues Ian Stavness and Carl Gutwin, runs the Human-Computer Interaction Lab at the University of Saskatchewan. She concludes that “there’s no question,” the mouse is the faster and more accurate aiming device. “Research has shown this over and over, from the 1980s forward. This is not in contention. It is slower and less accurate to aim with a thumbstick. … The mouse has not been beat.”
I've always said mnk and controller should never play against each other. It's not fair for either party. Plus both parties are usually too egotistical to acknowledge their own advantages.
Yea but in apex for example if you want to use your advantages on PC you have to be a good player, on console you have this advantage just by the fact that you’re using it. It is always so frustrating to be killed by a bad console player(I mean bad in terms of game mechanics other than aim). You know like if you have an average or bad console player and pc player comparable in skill console player will always have a better chance of winning just cuz he has godlike aim by default.
@@kurttheimmortal1403 Bro. I play controller but have played PC. You literally point and click people's domes off with a PC. Using thumbsticks and triggers puts you at a disadvantage for everything.
I really don't understand any argument for Aim assist and control players! IF you can't aim without aim assist on controller then don't use controller! I f you can't play naturally without cheating advantages then you should switch to Mortal Combat or crash bandicoot games... or play fairly in lower ranks with controller or mouse! I don't understand what's an argument??? If you want to use aim assist in competitive scene then maybe FPS is not for you, fps = good aim, why aim assist in the games that were created to win by aiming naturally???
I had a similar issue until I downloaded TabLabs on Steam. It keeps track of a lot of your stats and you're able to practice closing tabs on a variety of browsers like Microsoft Edge, Mozilla, etc.
@@dune4396 yeah Ik lol sucks cause I’ve been experiencing the bs on keyboard and mouse and it’s not fun so that’s why i was happy to see him post this issue and heavy topic in the gaming community
I had a buddy who competed in halo CE tournaments in the early 2000's. He came to halo PC years later. Within days he was slapping people who had been on halo pc for literal years. That instantly told me that knowledge of the game matter more than aiming skill.
Yep, I play on mouse and keyboard, but I have many friends that play on Controller and are just so much better than me. It's not just about aim, it's about knowlege of the game, aim comes second
I've been telling people aswell and why I refuse to play games like fortnite. Fortnite is designed for M&K and I refuse to switch over to it just to be able to build easier and faster. Not that I can't use one. I used to pub stomp back in the early days of halo on pc with just a sniper. The last actual skill based Cod(for example) game that was released was bo1.
I think it’s also just easier to get adapted to mouse and keyboard than it is to get good with a controller for first person shooters. Maybe I’m wrong but I’m a very good player with mouse and keyboard and absolutely garbage struggling to get a single kill with a controller. Have used mouse and keyboard for 8 years in FPS games and never used controller other than with friends sometimes.
I have both. Keyboard and mouse is awesome for valorant Cs go type games but I feel a controller is better for like 3rd person type games like the witchery etc. I also find warzone easier on controller but thats maybe because I spent a lot of time on the ps4 playing warzone
This is personal preferences. My first contact with online gaming was diablo 2 and Cs 1.6 keyboard and mouse. I then played diabolo 3 on pc and ps4 and m8 ps4 was much better I couldn't imagine that being the case but it just worked. I played Cs on xbox and it was shit completely changed the game imo. The keyboard and mouse is far more accurate imo but when it comes to moulding lots of different keys together to do certain things in certain games vs a controller. The pad wins. But m8 as I say that's just my experience. My little cousin is a pc gamer all the way and fps games he is unbeatable but other games I can win.
@@warrioromarzthefirst5949 i recently switched to nouse on my ps4 in warzone and would never go back to controller. Its so much easier to beam people from 100m with a mouse.. Close quarters is a little harder but i would never go back to controller.
experiencing this in cold war right now; I play m&k..i used to play controller and haven't picked one up in 9 months...I used a controller for the first time the other day and there's a huge advantage at least in cold war. AA seems to be so strong
Not just human nature, but also you have to realize that a person who is willing to Spend over $2k on gaming is gonna be more into it and spend more time doing it than the person that spent $300.00. So I dont know why everyone wouldn't expect the people on PC to do better just because of that fact. Its like saying "the only reason olympic athletes run faster than me is cuz they have those expensive track shoes."
This is very true. Often I see console gamers argue that playing on pc is easier because of k+m, when in fact it's the opposite. Firstly everyone uses k+m and second the playerbase is more hardcore.
Because you are talking about less than 1% of the people on PC. The vast majority of PC gamers play on toasters. There is a reason PC gaming is so popular in poorer 3rd world countries and big PC exclusives like valorant are designed to run on integrated graphics from the 90s. But at the same time I also question the logic. The people with the most expensive toys tend to be middle aged weekend warriors, like myself. I have much more disposable income now that I am older, but I was much more of a hardcore gamer when I was young and poor.
There’s many types of pc gamers, not everyone who spends a lot of money on their pc does it because they’re really into gaming, some do it as a hobby in itself, building pc and adding your own flare is one of the biggest things to pc gaming, then you have people who spend a lot for graphics and performance on story based games. The people who play FPS are likely the cheap gaming pc builds more than the mega money
The part you said its not just about aim is so true. I am pretty good at aim for age and time i play. But i lose 9 out of 10 games by wrong movement, positioning or lack of surrounding awareness.
Facts I am really good at aiming and flick shots(on PC) but I really struggle at surrounding awareness and it takes me awhile to learn the map layout that’s why I struggle at games like BF Battle Royal games with huge maps
@@Memtex oh my biggest problem on awareness is concentration haha. I really need a team mate that talks and keeps me on focus. Im the team mate that shoots while everyone thinks it was better not to. Or run out of a building without looking. Or start pushing while standing in open field. And still i stream hahhaha
@@Remix2366 How is that a them problem? PC players need to practice their aim too. A k&m player can transition to controller easier than the other way around. On Apex, there was a pro with 7k hours known to be crazy that switched to controller.
I just switched to M&K from being on controller for 15+ years and I found that one of the hardest things to do is up-close tracking. Especially if you're running a slower sens. When on controller due to aim assist you can get away with having pretty sloppy aim up close..
Spot on man, grew up on console and it's pretty easy to tell a controller player from a mnk player. You lose 90% of your fights in cqc with mnk vs controller. I really like the idea I read in the comments that AA should be removed and have gyro + stick aim for controller. Seems like a good way to show skill with different inputs without a clear advantage.
I haven't played with aim assist in 4 or 5 years thanks to developers adding in the option to remove deadzones on games like Fortnite, CoD, Battlefield, and Apex. The most important thing is that your controller is not faulty and you can control any stick drift your controller might have, the rest is just about practice. But without the ability to remove deadzones any kind of tracking is impossible.
From now on, I want Shroud to sum up all written text in my life. He'd be like "oh, ja, Lord of the... Thing. bla, bla, bla... and then there's this wizard guy... hobbits... bla, bla, bla... pretty good book. Not about me. Still good."
He is clicking the scroll wheel like a button to close the tab. You know you don't have to left click the 'x' right? You can just click the scroll wheel on the tab.
5:22 he just explained why MMA shouldn't be allowed right? Theres reasons Wrestling, Jiu Jitsu, and Judo completely dominate, then it falls traditional boxing, and kickboxing not kung fu. Yet we still see grapplers and strikers going at it with clear cut advantages and disadvantages.
Aim assist is also FPS relient. Controller on pc at 250fps makes the aim assist wayyyy stronger. However, on a PS4 or Xbox at 60fps, the aim assist is no where near as good. I think just toning down the aim assist would be a good start.
@@SirTipsi just making the point that console and controller are different. Controller having much weaker aim assist. Maybe tone down the aim assist to replicate this.
That’s totally fair. I like that idea. Since the two have situations where they are either better or worse than their counterpart, they shouldn’t be allowed to play competitively with one another. That makes a lot more sense than these big time streamers just trash talking the shit out of controller players.
Well all the pros have a choice to move to keyboard if they want. It's not unfair when you have the choice. It's only unfair when you give somone an advantage because the don't want to Lear to be better
@@mryellow6918 Right but that’s not what I’m arguing. I’m just saying that tournaments all the way from cash tournaments to pro leagues should be segregated into mouse and keyboard or controller. The two aren’t the same, and don’t operate the same, so really you can’t even compare the two to say which one is better. Of course each has its own pros and cons but realistically there’s no comparison.
@@mryellow6918 most controller players can't afford a pc and a kbm also as a controller player for years and played kbm it's way more broken on keyboard because they have far more speed and precision so no most games where controller players are somewhat relevant its still pretty unfair to them most the time controller is only good in anything other than fps
@@sararctic2668 if it's unfair for controller then can explain why 50 percentage apex legends switched from m/k to controller also most cod pros are on controller. Beacuse of the aim assist they have especially in close range and mid range fight controllers definitely have more advantages
The fact I watch people beam me and not miss a single shot. But they spectate and watch them miss the broad side of a barn is what annoys me. Or watch them finish a kill and swipe 80ft left after the sim assist reg is gone. It’s the worst in COD at this.
Lmao this guys right here is spitting the abosolute truth Aiming with A mouse was never my problem It me mixing keys on the keyboard that has always haunted me,I tend to mix the heal button with the crouch button Stuffs like that Respect man
Have to agree, it all boils down to a fair test - if variables are different in competitive then it's not a fair playing field thus removes the competitive edge from it.
The irony of having players with 3000$ rigs rocking over 200 fps and top of the line headsets competing against mediocre hardware and thinking that aim assist is what makes the playing field unbalanced is laughable
Couldn't agree more, so many advantages, double or triple, maybe even 4x the FPS, FOV sliders to see more on screen, better rendering distance and graphics so they see people further away and more clearly, usually top notch headsets, not to mention how much easier it is to control recoil and probably a few more not mentioned above like scripts or macros to automatically dropshot when you shoot, but yet ur aim slowing down a little bit when you aim over someone on console or with controller somehow outweighs all of that lol.
a vast majority of gaming PCs are well under 3 grand not to mention on those high end PCs many pros use controller for the aim assist advantage...ie nick mercs..the same top of the line headsets on PC are available to console as well. next argument you care for me to shut down?
1:33 It's actually a false argument. Someone may beat someone else because of skill, but you have to realize that does not mean that it was truly a fair fight. When players won, they "thought" it was because of skill. When they lost they "felt" it was because the other person was getting help. This has nothing to do with actual situation. You have to realize that they aren't even playing the same game. Sure the title may be same, but mechanically, the games feel perceptively different. If you're on M&K and you manage to out aim a controller player, you have a right to celebrate. Conversely, if you're on controller and you get one pumped by a guy on PC doing crazy edits, you also have a right to complain. If you're on the same platform and have the same loadout, same hp, same ping, and no surprise third parties, you don't have a right to use "they had help" in any act of complaining because you are in fact playing the same game (you can complain though if the game clearly is not balanced properly). When you factor in that rank-X on controller may actually have a different difficulty curve than one for the same rank on M&K, it is very clear that the game at that point is not fair. Also, specifically for Fortnite, the point of the BR mode is not to build; it is to kill. Building does not get you kills. It may aid in your doing so, but it functionally contributes 0 DMG to an opponent (unless its trap, but are really counting that when it really might as well be a seperate weapon). The complaint that mk players are making is that their ability to actually win the game (which requires interference with another player) via spray weapons is not only fundamentally worse than that of a controller player, but they are going up against an opponent that, if they were on M&K would be called out for aimbotting (I do not care about your feelings. Aim assist is an aimbot in and of itself. It may be a bad aimbot, but it's an aimbot). Can it be worked around? Yes. Should I have to because they have an aimbot though?! NO! It should also not matter in a casual setting. I'm playing to chill. I don't want to be feeling the sting to a person clearly being spoon fed help. Yes, both parties may have agreed to play game X but the game they agreed to risk losing in is usually not the same. No one on M&K hops on and is like, "Gee, I want to face a lobby filled with controlla playazzz". Yes, they "technically" agreed to the possibility but the understanding beforehand was not the same. To reiterate: the hate is not just because "oh we lost therefore winner bad". It's actually because of legitimate concern.
I'm a controller player but in every game that is giving me the option to turn off aim assist completely I'll choose to play without. Always has been like that for me.
Pc players-"aim assist aim assist aim assist" Consol players- 3x higher FPS, better visability, higher hertz, more range of motion and much higher fovs
I completely agree, its not a bad thing to separate Controller/K&M in separate brackets, but for goofing around in say a casual game in BF4 I personally use controller because I can’t get use to K&M. But in a competitive setting there should be a separate bracket or league for both
"Damn, I lost, I'm gonna accept the fact that, even though they are on a different device, they are better as we have equal advantages and disadvantages and this has been shown on in our fight" -No gamer ever
people fail to consider that aiming is not the only thing in a gun fight! we mostly in any game we have: close (smg shotgun), mid (assault, lmg), and long (sniper). Given a one shot sniper, mnk has a great advantage no doubt. But when coming to mid and close range the controller is a cheat. Why i think that is because in most of the games, mid and close are not one shot. So when you aim with mnk you go faster to the point you want, but it's really hard to stay on point, and keep sustained shots. If the enemy moves it's even harder. On controller, you get the slow down sensitivity while on target and it sticks on the target with a lot more ease than with a mouse. The only streamer i've seen talking about this is summit. Also in a recent podcast, Scump, Envoy, Hitch and Hecz from the cod scene agreed that mnk would not have an easy job in the league, even saying they would get outclassed the the cod scene wouldn't change that much. Envoy comes from a mnk bg and he said the same thing.
@@jamie31415 whenever I play in cross play games on my PS4 and kill a pc player they get mad about aim assist but I have it off in literally every game I play
@Savage Cabbage I get the point that the game shouldnt give you any help at all. Quite frankly I shit on controller players their aim assist cant compete with mouse however I get the point of the game doing anything for you lowers the skill gap.
@Savage Cabbage "otherwise those complaining would switch to controller permanently if they actually thought there was an advantage over M&KB. " some would and have already I'm sure, but most want to play using their own skill and not skill given to them by the software.
The thing is the whole gaming community never considered controller players gamers until cross play dropped in, Controllers were considered inferior until they came face to face with keyboard and mouse with its aim assist.
Steam controller wanted to kill aim assist with gyro. But everyone thought gyro was a gimmick. I play apex with a mouse and keyboard combo on ds4 with gyro and it slaps.
@@starscream28 there is 100% recoil. You dont just plug in a mouse and completely abolish recoil. K&m players just have an easier time adjusting recoil patterns.
2:25 While true, aim assist can have an impact on those other factors. As the article states, aim assist is strongest 10-15 feet from the player. At greater distances, aim assisted thumbsticks usually underperform to the more precise mkb. So we'd expect that controller players might favor more aggressive, close quarters combat where their aim assist provides an advantage and position themselves accordingly. The article even mentions that mkb will try to avoid controller squads or hang back to preserve distance. I can't say how much this will affect any given encounter, but it sounds like overall the mixing of aim assisted controllers with mkb has changed how the games are played and the outcomes of certain matchups and positions. Later in the video Shroud says that even an equal matchup of mixed teams will compromise the integrity. In part that's because the two sides are incentivized almost to play two different games, or at least styles of the same game, merely because of their input.
As of now and in relation to Warzone, like Shroud says, aiming is not the whole equation. However, from 21 top streamers/pros, only 3 of them are with a mouse, others are all controller. Go watch how they play. These streamers on controller run into situations where they are fighting 2-3 people at the same time. What saves them is exactly aim, they jump and run around and aim assist just keeps their aim exactly on the enemy, while the enemy is too busy trying to track them, the aim assist does it for these streamers and thats why they're so blindly aggressive and still win.
he didtn click the x its function a hot key or something idk also if you put in 0.25 speed you can see the first time he missed the tab and went back to the tab he wanted to delete (this is no hate ik shroud has godlike aim better than everyone else)
@@gniktfird yes ik I use it all the time XD I was just having some fun I love shroud especially those crazy clips of his aim than you for being respectful about it tho :)
I'm so sick of the argument that there is more to the game than aiming, like knowing spawns etc etc. Doesn't change the fact that controllers have BUILT IN training wheels HELPING them aim. Mouse is pure skill.
Guys! Not sure if anyone else already did, but I figured out last night that on Black Ops Cold War with M&K if you’re at 400 DPI & a 6-6 sens, you need a 1.7 low zoom ADS multiplier for a 1:1 sensitivity between ADS & non ADS. My siege boys know how important this is. If you don’t like 6-6 sens, do the 360 trick where you shoot a bullet spot on the wall while not ADS and then hold your mouse far left of mouse pad, and drag straight across to the right all the way and place another bullet mark. Then find a multiplier that emulates that exact bullet mark to bullet mark spin while ADS. This is your 1:1 multiplier.
As a m&k player, I don’t see a problem with aim assist on controller, if it’s done right and balanced. I think COD does a good job with cross play balance, BUT you still should be able to CHOOSE to not with m&k players, and vice versa
M&K vs Controller from my experience is all situational, to be honest it all comes down to aim assist strength and sensitivity on top of which guns are being used and the range they are being used at so for example controller is less skillfull at close range vs M&K, a prime example would be pistols in gun game in modern warfare or ar's in destiny 2 and thats why skilled players most of the time will pick medium to long range fights especially on M&K vs Controller players
KBM has been designed specifically for fluid movement for the last 40years. Controller's can be used without aim assist, but not super effectively. Aim assist is a contentious issue with KBM users because when a player is top tier they are doing all the work and their argument is that top tier controller players aren't as skilled purely because they use an assist to help them aim. I can see the argument, but whenever a KBM player uses a controller, I don't see them complain about aim assist when it works. When it works, you don't notice it being there, it isn't aiming for you, all it does is help you stay on target. It's a gentle nudge. I'm sure there are players who don't us aim assist on console with a controller. But the majority don't even mess with their settings and just play. I do think that there are a lot more casual players on PC than console however. Which you'd think would be the opposite ironically. I just don't think it's fair a PC player shitting on consoles when their gaming platform of choice is basically 100x more powerful than the console player. *Ninja can suck a D* _He contradicts himself almost constantly._
AAK 540 There are multiple games where the aim assist on controller is very strong, there are many different types of aim assist, so saying aim assist doesn't aim for you, when in some games it does, is false. You're only speaking about the games where aim assist isn't a problem. If you're going to argue a topic like this, either name the games you're talking about, or acknowledge that there are some games that have very strong aim assist.
@Daniel Chettiar I have actually yes, I remember when PC games had aim assist options. Before console gaming was a multiplayer experience. I'm probably older than you. Not that it's really a flex as being old sucks 😭
I'm both a controller player and a M&K player and I can tell you 100% when the aim assist works for me too good, I complain because I put a lot more effort in on my M&K to get just average results and beat by really below average controller players, But then on my controller I can play casually and do just as good if not better because my aim assist is carrying me
I use to game on a console for most of my life and recently switched to pc about a year ago(I’m currently 22). And I use to defend aim assist all the way but then when I started playing on pc and realizing how much you have to actually work to have comparable aim to a controller player is insane. The amount of hours I had to put in in aim trainers alone just to feel like I was somewhat close to my skill on console isn’t even funny. Now when I switch to play games on my console with some of my old console friends I literally feel the aim aids it’s helping me greatly to get a kill. Especially in apex/fortnight it’s like I barely aim on someone and I just stick to them. However with that being said I will say MNK does have an advantage when it comes to how good you can run games and how precise you can be at long ranges but, one it’s not cheap to have a great computer and two it still takes a lot more practice and skill to be better at those far ranges. But up close I’d say the average console player against the average pc player, the console player will win almost every time.
Thing is some players even pro players still use mouse and keyboard while having the controller setup keeping the aim assist and yes that’s a thing, there’s a new device similar to eagles eye that was used even years ago during the moder warfare 2 era that allowed you to use mouse and keyboard with aim assist, now that is a huge problem. Apex legends needs to do something about this
I like how it always was "why would you ever use a controller on PC?" Now it is "You need aim assist to win, noob." I aim much better with mouse and keyboard, but I struggle to use my ring finger or pinky along with having trouble pushing multiple keys at a time, so I use controller. It's also funny because people on console players bitch just as much about K&M players for having "perfect" aim. I say just play with what makes you comfortable, and in tournament settings, that is on the organizers to decide.
literally only like 10-5% of PC players actually have good aim, the rest are dogshit, and can be beaten by anyone with a controller using aim assists and thus they are the ones mostly complaining about it outside of a competitive setting.
personally i think there needs to be m&k support for competitive console games that are cross platform, or have the ability to be cross platform, i.e apex, siege, fortnite, etc. Not only will this lower the gap between m&k and controller, but it will benefit all people because there will be more market competitiveness for better m&k products.
@Alden Rumampouw I was trash as expected for the first couple days but I’d say it took me a good week to know my way around the keys. It also helps if you connect your keyboard and mouse to your console before your pc arrives. It speeds up the time and by the time your pc arrives you’d be good .
I've played knm since doom came out in 94. Trying to learn controller. Not sure why, but the aim assist doesn't seem to help. If there were two of me, one on mnk the other on controller, the mnk version of me would win. But, I watch how some people use controllers and it is amazing. As a pc player I don't complain, I like having cross play and more people to play with.
At the end of the day I move my mouse, the reason I hit shots is completely because of my skill, there a system in place for controller players that literally adjusts there aim to be on target and track enemies more effectively. The reason i hate getting killed by controller is because its not the player killing me through their own skill, but a combination of skill and a systematic advantage. Getting killed by a cheater gives the same feeling as seeing someones aim stick to me and track me perfectly and unnaturally because of aim assists, the death doesnt feel fair.
i dont really think aim assist will be fixed or whatever and i dont care. ill still be good and do well in the majority of games, sometimes a controller player will get lucky and his mp5 will stick to my chest in cqc and i wont have a chance. such is life. but i wont ever afford controller players the same respect as mouse and keyboard.
Same here I play controller without aim assist so I can clearly see when someone who does have it kill me because at times it doesn’t even look like it’s helping at times it looks like it does all the work especially in warzone
Depends on the game take cod mw for example the aim assist in that game is so minimal it doesn't actually matter it only works when side strafing you don't get aim assist in any other instance
@@mitchellmiller6644 yeah multiplayer is alright nun crazy the locking on like warzone doesn’t happen all it does is help track but warzone is like legit aim bot
As far as my experience go , i started gaming 20 years ago with mouse and keyboard when consoles were only used by casual non competitive players . Because of that i learned how to play mouse and keyboard and some years after, i stopped playing competitive and i bought a console .... OMG first time i played an FPS with controller i was like "wow i cant land one shot with this " i passed from a professional CS 1.4/1.5/1.6 player to a guy who couldnt finnish an fps main story in easy mode . Because of that i ve always considered MnK superior . Years past and i started to get better and better on controller and everytime i saw people complain about controller aimassist i was always defending myself saying that controllers need to have aimassist because mnk is far superior ....until ..... i bough a PC and i start playing mnk again and i was still getting melted by controller users in any ways possible and i changed opinion . the confirmation of my opinion came when i asked my dad do something extremly simple on mnk "i said him to click the text document icon and write his name " and he wasnt able to do it ... because he was nurse all life and he wasnt interested in tech . Moral of the history ..... Mnk has faster learning curve but on the moment you reach that level on controller controller becomes far more superior because aim assist is no other than soft aimbot ... for some reason in games that allow you to play both devices ... controller completly dominates the leaderboard there only like 1 or 2 mnk players on the top 20 ... so until people understand that my generation grew up playing competitive on mnk ....young adults nowadays play often in controller ... and is crazy how much precise my nephew(8 years old ) can be playing like controller on touch screen xD so until people understand that expertise comes with practice ( example some people is more precise throwing stones than other people using a gun ) and they remove aimassist from the games .... Controller is superior !!! however i know i needed 6/7 years playing on controller to reach that level so i do not think is fair either to take that long to master .... so the solution for me is not mixing devices and let people be better using the device of their preference playing against others with the same device .
The hardest parts of this video to watch are when shroud keeps on saying how he "could care less" about this and that. It's when you couldn't care less that shows you have no care left to give.
i was shocked the other days about how COD warzone has so many controller players. i was checking on Twitch and realized that Warzone's top 10 streamers or something are mostly controller players, it's insane. Meanwhile, in Apex there are still many controller players but the top pro players and streamers are still mostly Mouse+Keyboard players. it's almost the same on Fortnite as well.
I mean Cod has been and will always be a console dominated game. So the fact that all the top streamer play on controller shouldn't be shocking to you in the slightest. Fortnite and Apex both had massive starts on PC so their main player base uses m&k so the top steamers would also be using m&k. Idk maybe my brain just works differently but I thought this all was pretty obvious.
@Aiden Saiz The main player base uses controller now because the game has been declining at a rapid pace and hardly anyone plays it now. PC players moved to different games like Tarkov. But in the beginning it was largely by PC. Almost 60% of the 50 million users in the first month of launch came from PC. I get what you're saying there was still a ton of controller uses but since most streamers use a PC to stream they would just naturally use m&k to play anyway was the point I was making. And Apex had a huge player base both on console and PC where COD has literally never had since recent years. And that's the difference really.
@Aiden Saiz My guy you're literally not understanding what I'm saying. You're just commenting to be right about something that has nothing to do with the point I was making. If you cant understand the point don't comment. Cause now to me you just look like someone looking to argue something cause you've had a bad day or you don't have a social life. And I'm not into that sorry. I literally gave you statistics and examples and your comeback is just "no I'm right for no reason with no evidence just cause I say so." Its not a good look kiddo. But hey good luck in life with that mentality. Peace friend.
People have an issue with Aim Assist because it is called Aim Assist. The name makes it sound like it the game helps you aim. It's not aim lock. If you have trash aim, aim assist won't do crap to make it better. All aim assist does is slow your sensitivity down when you're already on target. Maybe slightly before you aim on target for the heaviest aim assists. Then you have games like War Zone where you can choose how much it slows it down and when. I use precision aim assist. This means my crosshairs have to be on target before it slows my sense. It's this complete lack of understanding that drives me nuts about this silly argument. I agree though, competitions should not be mixed between MK and Controllers. That's like the NFL allowing the teams to use different sized footballs on their offense.
Yea for comp it's one or the other. I use both depending on game and how competitive. If I want to sit on my couch its controller. I'm old now so I dont do as much pvp/sweaty matches. But if I was, I would want everyone on one style of controls.
@@monitorlizard9971 lol. Thanks for proving you have absolutely ZERO idea of how aim assist works. You just assume shit because of the name. There's no target locking with Aim Assist. Maybe in some second rate shit shooter nobody plays. In every COD, all it does is slow your sensitivity when you aim ON target. I used to play C.S. 1.6 competitively. I love both PC and consoles. Let me tell you, I'm 10x better with MNK. And I'd love to be put in a lobby with nothing but controller players. Flick shots for days no problem lmao.
You dont expect a mouse and keyboard to beat a controller on driving games, you dont expect controller to beat mouse and keyboard in fps games, each has advantages depending on the game.
There is literally NO real advantage for the controller except a more precise movent with the thumbstick. That is why the controller needs "assist". It's not an advantage, not a natural one at least if you use an assist that help you aim. It's even in the name aim ASSIST. The "advantage" of the controller simply depends on how strong is the assist.
Shroud, if I came up against you inside of like a shipment match whole im on my PC and on Controller, I might get 1 or 2 lucky kills. But yea, I never get worried seeing a stacked KBM team against me because none of them are on this dudes level and the matches are always the closest. I woke up this morning around 6am and hopped on MWII and used an LMG that I never used before so no attachments Icarus? And I went 96-20 almost dropped a nuke that game, then just kept demolishing games. The hardest part of KBM is movement for me. I learned aiming and sensitivity within a couple days to a week, but movement on COD, completely different.
Heres the solution of the debate in full (console player who went to pc): you dont see the huge advantage of aim assist if you havent fully developed the skill from one side and the other. Its simple, controller aim assist is necessary, however its the developers fault how strong the aim assist is. Without aim assist, controller players can suck really bad compared to M&K, however, games like COD and Fortnite clearly have piss poor development and give aim assist a massive boost. Thats why you see alot of pc players use controller. So shrouds right, m&k players and controller players should be seperate for tournaments. And aim assist definitley is a crutch, depending on the game. 2 most played games currently right now, have broken op aim assist. Therefor, fix the problem or handle it accordingly. Its fair to critique aim assist players, especially in games where its broken. All those controller players on pc who talk big game are ignorant trash. No skill, thats a handout. Which is why i refuse to give credit to guys like Nickmercs, Aydan, Bugha etc. COD and Fortnite are relatively easy, which is why i also dont give them credit, sure they are decent, but there KD isnt earned. Minus half there KD from handouts (like stream snipers and magnetizing aim assist for recoil control and accuracy), and tada, average. So imo, shrouds partially correct. M&k and controller have strong suits, but everything is skill with M&K bar none. Until your skilled in both, dont act like you know.
exactly. playing competitive xbox for 15 years, went to MLG and EGL events for Halo 2 back in the 2000s. Now im on PC. aim assist is needed for controllers but certain games have it WAY too strong. IMO every game needs to turn it down something very slight like 2%. I believe the top M&K guys skewed everything for the rest of the PC guys. developers want a bunch of controller users to compete against tfue shroud mongrul etc so the aim assist is wayyy up there. the thing is' take a pair of identical twins and give one a controller and one a M&K....the controller one will kill the M&K one everytime for at least a month because there is just less skill required with the aim assist
Better frames, higher fov slider,and better overall management if you on pc there’s no reason u should be complaining, considering most pc guys wanted crossplay and when they lose they always find a way to blame a mechanic or something.
But what is the matter? Only you need to know, that PC does 100% of any movement by themselves but roller in most games is getting helped 40-60% by AI... those 40-60% are most valuable in-game where strafing side to side during a fight is common and if the 40% makes you overcome the delay between your eye, brain and hands, it just stupid... Why people should be at such an advantage just because they chose the roller? It is not forcing... it's the choice of each player. In high-end lobbies of apex, you can only beat roller on MnK with shotgun coz if you go head to head with same gun you will lose 9/10 times every time since you simply have to react on sudden movement of the strafing player... but roller will get kick start by AA doing the change of directing for them
alot of my friends play warzone on PC and always say my KD is high because of my controller. I always say hey I have 5 controllers. I can send you one so you can use it and they just shut right up. PC players shit on controller players for aim assist but they wont even try it because they know its harder deep down. PC players just need an excuse for losing to a better console player tbh.
Like I know your talking about warzone but a bunch of streamers complain about it and they play controller on fortnite one time and they are trash and they still complain
I really value shrouds opinion on things. He seems really wise. He always backs his points up with an explanation and generally isn’t overly biased towards a certain opinion.
My god, why does Keyboard and Mouse players not support gyro controls for controllers. If more people pushed for developers to implement gyro instead of aim assist there would be no need for this discussion.
I think aim assist should not exist in any console shooter, the skill gap would be huge and would really separate good from average. That said, if you are doing cross play, aim assist is the only thing that makes it sorta balanced, if it didn't exist mouse would absolutely dominate in ever instance, a controller with no aim assist is infinitely harder that using a mouse
Aim assist is something people don't understand properly. For example. If someone who hasn't played any FPS game ever in their life. They would do better with mouse and keyboard than a controller without aim assist. People think it's like aimbot. Which is not true at all. It just slows down your crosshair speed over the target. That's all
@@Stimzz i don't get this opinion and i try hard to understand why people say it's necessary, I played console (on controller) for all my life until around a year ago when i swapped to pc and kbm, but i often play on controller in a few games when i don't feel like swinging my arm around (fortnite and cod mostly) but i still think even with all my time on controller its not necessary, i think aim on controller can indeed be perfected with the same amount of time people on kbm put into their aim, i feel like most controller players are used to being aimed for and dont wanna actually have to try hard to aim like everyone on keyboard does i never really understood how no one else on controller thinks it's not necessary
@RXVAS games like COD? Yes. The aim assist is fucking bonkers in that. The fact that you can change the intensity on that is broken. Compare that to that on something like Apex. The difference like night and day. I play both on MnK and controller. The only game where I feel like the aim assist is spot on is Apex.
@@ahbin given the time, obviously people would adapt. But starting to play on controller without aim assist is would be next to impossible. People would just not play tbh...
My thoughts on aim assist. From distance its really helpful. Spraying a sniper or a running character. In a close quarter combat situation, a player running behind who your aiming DRAGS your cross hair and basically forces you too miss. I've had this happen in many 3v1 situations.
Also, I don't think any of the benefits of a mkb are really weighed against that of a controller. The movement/agility is so far ahead its insane. Actions are executed so much faster, and yes aim assist often is a DISADVANTAGE in many scenarios. Field of view. Variable aiming sensitivity. Better graphics. Etc.
In my experience it's the opposite. If I'm using a sniper and trying to track someone running to the side, the aim assist will often slow my sensitivity so much that he outruns my crosshair and I have to un ADS and re scope in in front of him to take a shot and if I turn off the aim assist and I try to shoot someone 20' away with a machine gun I have to go into hyper focus mode to have a chance of killing him. That might just be me tho haha
@@krag3405 I used to play counter strike on PC and was an absolute laser. Even wall bangs , ez 1 taps with AK. I switched to controller and cod and I stuck big time. It throws me off. I'm too used to the feeling of my cross hair going EXACTLY where I want it. So my tracking awful and my headshot aim suffers as well. I play Rust which has no aim assist and I beam. Even with awkward recoil weapons.
I get where Mike comes from when he says M&K shouldn't compete against controller for money because there are advantages and disadvantages to each of them. However, it's the same as most pro sports. Take F1 for example. They have to balance aero compared to powertrain and chassis etc. Even sports like swimming in the ISL, there's some part of compromise for different strokes, different techniques, different focuses etc. You can't be the best at every single aspect of the sport, there always has to be some compromise. Which is what choosing controller over M&K is, and vice-versa.
I’m a controller player of 20 years, I played quake on the N64. Just the way I learned FPS. I turn aim assist off in every game, it hinders me more than it helps. Sure I could learn Mouse and Keyboard in maybe 2 months if I devoted time but playing with a controller is natural
About a year ago, I was heavily into Fortnite. Had Co-workers that were into it, had family that I played with., but I always played on PC, whereas they all played on console. I would religiously practice my aim, because I believe that was my weak spot. So every day I'd wake up, drink my morning coffee, and practice my aiming and building. Now, I know my friends and family enough to know that they never practiced. Yet, when we'd play, I'd get absolutely demolished by anything that was reliant upon tracking. I think I finally learned just how strong aim-assist was in Fortnite, when I was visiting my sister and her family. I watched my niece (who at the time was 8 years old, and barely into video games) play Fortnite, I thought "Aww, cute". Watched her land nowhere near her team as most kids do, she landed on a gray AR and grenades. She took out an entire squad of 4. As I watched it, I thought to myself "she's going to get wrecked". Then she tossed the grenades, downed 2, and sprayed the remaining 2 with her AR. I just sat there, kind of in awe, wondering how a child was able to effortlessly do what I have spent hours upon hours practicing., and I came down to the conclusion that it was the aim-assist. Even though console players had aim-assist, pc players had more potential.
nothing to do with human nature, its more like because PC gaming is plagued with cheaters, and its getting more ridiculous every year. im playing more than 20 years online games (very high level for UT for example back in the days). And even if we had many cheaters (mostly in games like CS,UT,Quake etc...) the amount you see today and how a whole industry around it evolved, selling hacks and cheats (just PC gaming btw.) just makes the normal player think twice in every situation they got killed. Because everybody knows how common cheating is nowadays in PC gaming, especially FPS games. You can not blame those people and just say "it is human nature when you lose you blame the other guy hes cheating blabla herpderp". No... because the thought is alwas there after you getting killed in a strange way and that for a REASON. And when controllers come into play now on top of that. Which are like aimbots lite. There is no way to deny that. Yout gotta be retarded to not admit that. You don't even need experience of like 20+ years like me to understand and see that. This makes people pissed and rethinking every time they get fragged because there is always this doubt in your head.
Bro its true its so hard to not be pissed at cs, im getting better at it but its hard me an my mates 5 stack were climbing to global together again we all LEM and when ever I get deleted i always second guess myself not even on purpose its because its like fuckkk is he legit ? i try to just assume they are but then you go to there account and is fresh as fuck its like fuck sakes, but at the same time playing against cheaters all the time makes you so much better at the game and thankfully there isnt that many blatant cheaters most of them closet cheat so you can still beat them
@@3self with ADS shooting games yes. pull your aim trigger when looking 3 feet to the right of the opponent and let the aim assist bring your aim dead center mass on the enemy. the aim assist does you flick for you without error.
As an ex console player who then transitioned over to controller on PC, before finally switching to MKB... in my opinion, aim assist is generally way too strong. When I used to play BF1 on PC with controller I would top the scoreboard most of the time. Once you get on target the enemy is dead. I could also turn very quickly. I generally have good game sense so that helps.
I’ve been playing video games on console for yeaaars now and after trying pc i can definitively say that people should look at all the advantages pc player have over console player : - perf are much better. 144 fps on apex pc vs 29 fps on ps4 fat - respond time from a gaming monitor is 10 time better than a TV. - 10 years of aim training on console will never get up to 6 month of aim training on pc for sure. - mkb give you such an advantage in movement and precision over console it’s literally indecent. I give aim assist to console player everyday when you see all the advantages pc players get.
@@boygenius538_8 There shouldn't be crossplay, i am fine with aim assist, but then everyone should have it, better not having crossplay on shit like APEX.
even if the winning condition is not based on pure aim but only tactics and movement.... you need to realize that still aiming is like 80% of winning a FPS game
One thing I'd like to say about all of this aim assist stuff is if someone is a console player they usually have aim assist off because it feels like you are fighting the controls. At least that is how I am and my friends are.
I play with a high sens to counter the aim assist. Still doesn’t work sometimes but I don’t complain whenever I get whipped on by a guy with a mouse pad the size of my TV screen either. It’s like Shroud said, there’s advantages to both, controller isn’t just this OP thing that just makes you win.
@@trentmckenzie343 exactly but every first person shooter has the option to turn of aim assist so you can find it in the controls some other games don't but they are usually single player or aren't about shooting
@@alexanderkauffman1095 Right, but that will give an advantage to KBM players. It’s much easier to aim without aim assist with a mouse than with a controller, and I speak from experience. I’m with shroud, I think the two should just be left separate in competitive play. One league for controllers and one league for KBM. Crossplay is great but if people are going to complain about it then why do we have it to begin with?
@@alexanderkauffman1095 Crossplay would be fine if people wouldn’t complain about either party. Not saying it’s just KBM players who complain, there’s plenty of controller players that think KBM is OP. The fact of the matter is that there is no comparison to be made between KBM and controller. They are mechanically different, and have different pros and cons. So you can’t compare the two and make a conclusion about one being better than the other, and say you’re comparing apples to apples. I think the argument between controller and KBM should just be dropped as a whole. And they should have regulations in tournaments that allow only controller or only KBM. Platform is kinda irrelevant, unless it’s a game like Rainbow 6. In summary, the whole argument is dumb in my opinion.
I've always supported and loved the idea of cross-play. However, i always hated aim assist and never expected in my wildest dreams that developers would allow non aim assist players to interact with aim assist players. from a mouse/non aim-assist player it legit looks and feels like aimbot (because let's be honest thats kinda what it is).
Aim Assist article: www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/esports/2020/10/16/aim-assist-debate/?arc404=true
Hey. Have a good day everyone
love you shorud from italyyyyyy
@@hirocuppi ciao
i would but... washington post is garb
1.) Gaming journalism is terrible and should be boycotted by all gamers
2.) Aim assist = participation trophy
Who has ever benefited from a participation trophy?
3.) If the computer/mouse are better at aiming than consoles, then consoles need to step the EFFFF up.
People should be buying a PC over consoles anyways. Consoles are basically poorly made PCs with a bunch of fake hype surrounding them. I get if you are in a poor country and getting a used console is the only way you're going to game, but if you actually have a choice, then PC wins every time.
I want a shroud podcast. He’s been in the gaming scene for soo long as he is very well spoken.
It's unnecessary 'cause he just chats on the stream for about 45min everyday 😶
@@aaronrajadurai1167 some people don't have the time to just sit there and watch though. Podcasts are way easier because you can listen anywhere
@@NathanRFMuir yes
@@NathanRFMuir just skip to the part he chats after the stream is over.. U want HIM to start a podcast because U cant sit through his stream huh...INTERESTING
@@aaronrajadurai1167 well yeah him and many others that have complicated job times and maybe are busy or just in general so a few years from now someone can find out about him and really like his viewpoints and wanna see some more of his stance’s on topics and with podcast they’d be able to do just that
R6 console players: what’s aim Assist?
We don't need that weak shit
true Af
honestly if they would just get rid of aim assist in all competitive aspects of fps games i'm sure the community would adjust accordingly. r6 isn't an easy game to be good at, and it's the perfect example that aim isn't everything.
@@acurry8569 yep
@@acurry8569 but it's also low TTK and angle and lane based. If there was an immense tracking involved it would be potato city. FOV and actual character model size matters a lot primarily because of the dead zone issues controllers face.
With the facial hair, experience/skill *AND* his voice, he is basically a professor.
His facial hair hurts his credibility, he's hiding that " Parker Schnabel" face.....just sayin
also the glasses
If professors were dumb as nails maybe 😆
a cheater professor. on pubg yikes.
Gordon Freeman
The other part that few people ever mention is that aim assist strength usually depends on developer and game. Some games have stronger aim assist than others
Great point. Games like Apex have much less aim assist than something like CoD which has much less than older BF games
Yeah, look at halo MCC compared to COD.
yeah rogue companys aim assist was broken when the game released but they fixed it. Also people on MKB overestimate aim assist a lot IMO. They act like it does all the work but there's still skill required. Each have some strengths depending on the situation. MKBs ability to flick. get precise headshots, snap targets at high speeds, cant be matched by a controller.
for example fortnite aim assist used to be so strong that almost seemed like aimbot. Now its kinda balanced
@@JoshAndrokio Halo is a very contentious game in this debate. The assistance lends itself very well to the games mechanics.
“It’s almost like you’re comparing apples to oranges,” explained Mandryk, who, along with her colleagues Ian Stavness and Carl Gutwin, runs the Human-Computer Interaction Lab at the University of Saskatchewan. She concludes that “there’s no question,” the mouse is the faster and more accurate aiming device. “Research has shown this over and over, from the 1980s forward. This is not in contention. It is slower and less accurate to aim with a thumbstick. … The mouse has not been beat.”
True until you add aim assist in controller and basically its aimbot vs mouse
@@pindiboii7247 imagine thinking aim assist is effective against m&k
@@pindiboii7247 basicly aimbot vs mouse 😂 if sticks aim better than u its time to work on that aim
@@semchristis3624 imagine thinking you are a competitive console player if you use aim assist 😂
@@pindiboii7247 I play on pc 🤷♂️
I've always said mnk and controller should never play against each other. It's not fair for either party. Plus both parties are usually too egotistical to acknowledge their own advantages.
I hate the idea of PC and console as well
Yea but in apex for example if you want to use your advantages on PC you have to be a good player, on console you have this advantage just by the fact that you’re using it. It is always so frustrating to be killed by a bad console player(I mean bad in terms of game mechanics other than aim). You know like if you have an average or bad console player and pc player comparable in skill console player will always have a better chance of winning just cuz he has godlike aim by default.
Plus there's enough console players for lobbies if you just do console crossplay between Playstation, Xbox and Switch.
@@kurttheimmortal1403 Bro. I play controller but have played PC. You literally point and click people's domes off with a PC. Using thumbsticks and triggers puts you at a disadvantage for everything.
I really don't understand any argument for Aim assist and control players! IF you can't aim without aim assist on controller then don't use controller! I f you can't play naturally without cheating advantages then you should switch to Mortal Combat or crash bandicoot games... or play fairly in lower ranks with controller or mouse! I don't understand what's an argument??? If you want to use aim assist in competitive scene then maybe FPS is not for you, fps = good aim, why aim assist in the games that were created to win by aiming naturally???
Does he use aim assist on chrome? Cause I can't even imagine closing a tab so fast and that too twice
lol
Hotkeys my man if u lacking in the wrist then u build the keys (shroud used middle mouse button to close so it’s not that hard tbh)
@@Nanospear also if you put it in 0.25 spped he missed the tab the first time lol
@@gniktfird I tried snapping closing but I keep missing too lmao
I had a similar issue until I downloaded TabLabs on Steam. It keeps track of a lot of your stats and you're able to practice closing tabs on a variety of browsers like Microsoft Edge, Mozilla, etc.
Love that he’s covering this topic knowing that the new cod just dropped
probably because controller is broken on it lol. Havent played controller in 2 years and top fragged my first game on it.
@@dune4396 yeah Ik lol sucks cause I’ve been experiencing the bs on keyboard and mouse and it’s not fun so that’s why i was happy to see him post this issue and heavy topic in the gaming community
@@dune4396 gezz lol that’s crazy
Cod is mindless play
This clip is old. I want to say maybe like month or two ago
I had a buddy who competed in halo CE tournaments in the early 2000's. He came to halo PC years later. Within days he was slapping people who had been on halo pc for literal years. That instantly told me that knowledge of the game matter more than aiming skill.
Right! Keyboard got way overhyped
Yep, I play on mouse and keyboard, but I have many friends that play on Controller and are just so much better than me. It's not just about aim, it's about knowlege of the game, aim comes second
I've been telling people aswell and why I refuse to play games like fortnite. Fortnite is designed for M&K and I refuse to switch over to it just to be able to build easier and faster. Not that I can't use one. I used to pub stomp back in the early days of halo on pc with just a sniper. The last actual skill based Cod(for example) game that was released was bo1.
I think it’s also just easier to get adapted to mouse and keyboard than it is to get good with a controller for first person shooters. Maybe I’m wrong but I’m a very good player with mouse and keyboard and absolutely garbage struggling to get a single kill with a controller. Have used mouse and keyboard for 8 years in FPS games and never used controller other than with friends sometimes.
@@jared_deraj yea, controller takes forever to get good with. Very true
Basically: Aim Bot talking about Aim Assist
🤣
the bots are taking over!!!!!
The human Aim bot
thats a good one
The Human Aimbot would be ppl like NateGibson or TGD or Nexes
Shroud: "if i say something like this it`s usually after i lost"
Also Shroud: 0.00000000000000000000000000001% of the time so yeah basically never
@Stay Positive It's a joke, we all know he loses, everyone does.
I bought a wireless mouse and keyboard just to play Bedrock Edition Minecraft without a controller
I can't even imagine playing minecraft with controllers.
@@hojjat5000 not the best but I thinks more peaceful but the experience overall is much better on M&K
@minecraft man I see, you’re a wise man
I just bought a computer so I could play minecraft java lol
Me too
you can make micro-adjustments with a mouse easily. on a joystick its much harder to put the reticule exactly where you want it to go QUICKLY
I have both. Keyboard and mouse is awesome for valorant Cs go type games but I feel a controller is better for like 3rd person type games like the witchery etc. I also find warzone easier on controller but thats maybe because I spent a lot of time on the ps4 playing warzone
What about deadzones ? Isn't that specifically what its made to help with?
This is personal preferences. My first contact with online gaming was diablo 2 and Cs 1.6 keyboard and mouse. I then played diabolo 3 on pc and ps4 and m8 ps4 was much better I couldn't imagine that being the case but it just worked. I played Cs on xbox and it was shit completely changed the game imo.
The keyboard and mouse is far more accurate imo but when it comes to moulding lots of different keys together to do certain things in certain games vs a controller. The pad wins. But m8 as I say that's just my experience. My little cousin is a pc gamer all the way and fps games he is unbeatable but other games I can win.
@@ogloko2967 the range of motion with sticks is bad regardless of your deadzone settings.
@@warrioromarzthefirst5949 i recently switched to nouse on my ps4 in warzone and would never go back to controller. Its so much easier to beam people from 100m with a mouse.. Close quarters is a little harder but i would never go back to controller.
experiencing this in cold war right now; I play m&k..i used to play controller and haven't picked one up in 9 months...I used a controller for the first time the other day and there's a huge advantage at least in cold war. AA seems to be so strong
Its ridiculous!
Yet m&k players can move extremely faster than controller players
Not just human nature, but also you have to realize that a person who is willing to Spend over $2k on gaming is gonna be more into it and spend more time doing it than the person that spent $300.00. So I dont know why everyone wouldn't expect the people on PC to do better just because of that fact. Its like saying "the only reason olympic athletes run faster than me is cuz they have those expensive track shoes."
This is very true. Often I see console gamers argue that playing on pc is easier because of k+m, when in fact it's the opposite. Firstly everyone uses k+m and second the playerbase is more hardcore.
Because you are talking about less than 1% of the people on PC. The vast majority of PC gamers play on toasters.
There is a reason PC gaming is so popular in poorer 3rd world countries and big PC exclusives like valorant are designed to run on integrated graphics from the 90s. But at the same time I also question the logic. The people with the most expensive toys tend to be middle aged weekend warriors, like myself.
I have much more disposable income now that I am older, but I was much more of a hardcore gamer when I was young and poor.
not sure I agree, you can use m&k on a lot of competitive games on console as you can use controller on pc.
That's not fully accurate but okay.
There’s many types of pc gamers, not everyone who spends a lot of money on their pc does it because they’re really into gaming, some do it as a hobby in itself, building pc and adding your own flare is one of the biggest things to pc gaming, then you have people who spend a lot for graphics and performance on story based games. The people who play FPS are likely the cheap gaming pc builds more than the mega money
I like the part where shroud shaved and then had a beard again. Quick as always
I'm waiting for it🤣
You know Shroud's aim is too good when he can highlight words in an article with ease.
that's the easiest shit to do bro, wtf
1:25 him closing the tab was fast
The part you said its not just about aim is so true. I am pretty good at aim for age and time i play. But i lose 9 out of 10 games by wrong movement, positioning or lack of surrounding awareness.
Facts I am really good at aiming and flick shots(on PC) but I really struggle at surrounding awareness and it takes me awhile to learn the map layout that’s why I struggle at games like BF Battle Royal games with huge maps
@@Memtex oh my biggest problem on awareness is concentration haha. I really need a team mate that talks and keeps me on focus. Im the team mate that shoots while everyone thinks it was better not to. Or run out of a building without looking. Or start pushing while standing in open field. And still i stream hahhaha
The problem is that people don't learn how to aim on a controller, they learn how to get the aim assist to stick.
Few people have time to aim practice out here
@@Remix2366 How is that a them problem? PC players need to practice their aim too. A k&m player can transition to controller easier than the other way around. On Apex, there was a pro with 7k hours known to be crazy that switched to controller.
I just switched to M&K from being on controller for 15+ years and I found that one of the hardest things to do is up-close tracking. Especially if you're running a slower sens. When on controller due to aim assist you can get away with having pretty sloppy aim up close..
Spot on man, grew up on console and it's pretty easy to tell a controller player from a mnk player. You lose 90% of your fights in cqc with mnk vs controller. I really like the idea I read in the comments that AA should be removed and have gyro + stick aim for controller. Seems like a good way to show skill with different inputs without a clear advantage.
I haven't played with aim assist in 4 or 5 years thanks to developers adding in the option to remove deadzones on games like Fortnite, CoD, Battlefield, and Apex. The most important thing is that your controller is not faulty and you can control any stick drift your controller might have, the rest is just about practice. But without the ability to remove deadzones any kind of tracking is impossible.
Removing the deadzone makes it even harder to aim. It's not a good balance
From now on, I want Shroud to sum up all written text in my life. He'd be like "oh, ja, Lord of the... Thing. bla, bla, bla... and then there's this wizard guy... hobbits... bla, bla, bla... pretty good book. Not about me. Still good."
i’ve never seen a person close a tab that accidentally opened so quickly... the snipe
scroll wheel click closes a tab as long as your mouse pointer is on the tab
You don't need to left click the little x 🤣. You can just click the scroll wheel on the general tab shape.
this dude just flicked TWICE and closed his twitter TWICE without missing. jeeeeeeez
Missed the part where he accidentally opened it twice I guess...
He is clicking the scroll wheel like a button to close the tab. You know you don't have to left click the 'x' right? You can just click the scroll wheel on the tab.
5:22 he just explained why MMA shouldn't be allowed right? Theres reasons Wrestling, Jiu Jitsu, and Judo completely dominate, then it falls traditional boxing, and kickboxing not kung fu. Yet we still see grapplers and strikers going at it with clear cut advantages and disadvantages.
Yes separate tournies. Not removing aim assist entirely. That ruined Black Ops 4 PC no point in using controller.
I would have to disagree. Because then we get into the realm of extensions like gamepads. And different keyboards have advantages over one another
Aim assist is also FPS relient. Controller on pc at 250fps makes the aim assist wayyyy stronger. However, on a PS4 or Xbox at 60fps, the aim assist is no where near as good. I think just toning down the aim assist would be a good start.
@@Sam-wb2mp what are you talking about, that has nothing to do with it. It's not like you have a higher game tickrate with more fps.
@@SirTipsi Most games actually have some form of benefit to having higher FPS hidden away.
@@SirTipsi just making the point that console and controller are different. Controller having much weaker aim assist. Maybe tone down the aim assist to replicate this.
xQc was banned for 7 days why is everyone acting like his twitch times are over lol.
Free content
Who?
@@meestersecure9060 god
When ur so early the highest quality is 480p
Honestly I could listen to Shroud talking for an entire 3 hours without getting bored
fag
That’s totally fair. I like that idea. Since the two have situations where they are either better or worse than their counterpart, they shouldn’t be allowed to play competitively with one another. That makes a lot more sense than these big time streamers just trash talking the shit out of controller players.
Well all the pros have a choice to move to keyboard if they want. It's not unfair when you have the choice. It's only unfair when you give somone an advantage because the don't want to Lear to be better
@@mryellow6918 Right but that’s not what I’m arguing. I’m just saying that tournaments all the way from cash tournaments to pro leagues should be segregated into mouse and keyboard or controller. The two aren’t the same, and don’t operate the same, so really you can’t even compare the two to say which one is better. Of course each has its own pros and cons but realistically there’s no comparison.
@@mryellow6918 most controller players can't afford a pc and a kbm also as a controller player for years and played kbm it's way more broken on keyboard because they have far more speed and precision so no most games where controller players are somewhat relevant its still pretty unfair to them most the time controller is only good in anything other than fps
@@sararctic2668 you can move to keyboard still. And also it gives you aim bot.
@@sararctic2668 if it's unfair for controller then can explain why 50 percentage apex legends switched from m/k to controller also most cod pros are on controller. Beacuse of the aim assist they have especially in close range and mid range fight controllers definitely have more advantages
The fact I watch people beam me and not miss a single shot. But they spectate and watch them miss the broad side of a barn is what annoys me. Or watch them finish a kill and swipe 80ft left after the sim assist reg is gone. It’s the worst in COD at this.
Lmao this guys right here is spitting the abosolute truth
Aiming with A mouse was never my problem
It me mixing keys on the keyboard that has always haunted me,I tend to mix the heal button with the crouch button
Stuffs like that
Respect man
Have to agree, it all boils down to a fair test - if variables are different in competitive then it's not a fair playing field thus removes the competitive edge from it.
The irony of having players with 3000$ rigs rocking over 200 fps and top of the line headsets competing against mediocre hardware and thinking that aim assist is what makes the playing field unbalanced is laughable
Couldn't agree more, so many advantages, double or triple, maybe even 4x the FPS, FOV sliders to see more on screen, better rendering distance and graphics so they see people further away and more clearly, usually top notch headsets, not to mention how much easier it is to control recoil and probably a few more not mentioned above like scripts or macros to automatically dropshot when you shoot, but yet ur aim slowing down a little bit when you aim over someone on console or with controller somehow outweighs all of that lol.
a vast majority of gaming PCs are well under 3 grand not to mention on those high end PCs many pros use controller for the aim assist advantage...ie nick mercs..the same top of the line headsets on PC are available to console as well. next argument you care for me to shut down?
1:33 It's actually a false argument. Someone may beat someone else because of skill, but you have to realize that does not mean that it was truly a fair fight. When players won, they "thought" it was because of skill. When they lost they "felt" it was because the other person was getting help. This has nothing to do with actual situation. You have to realize that they aren't even playing the same game. Sure the title may be same, but mechanically, the games feel perceptively different. If you're on M&K and you manage to out aim a controller player, you have a right to celebrate. Conversely, if you're on controller and you get one pumped by a guy on PC doing crazy edits, you also have a right to complain. If you're on the same platform and have the same loadout, same hp, same ping, and no surprise third parties, you don't have a right to use "they had help" in any act of complaining because you are in fact playing the same game (you can complain though if the game clearly is not balanced properly). When you factor in that rank-X on controller may actually have a different difficulty curve than one for the same rank on M&K, it is very clear that the game at that point is not fair.
Also, specifically for Fortnite, the point of the BR mode is not to build; it is to kill. Building does not get you kills. It may aid in your doing so, but it functionally contributes 0 DMG to an opponent (unless its trap, but are really counting that when it really might as well be a seperate weapon). The complaint that mk players are making is that their ability to actually win the game (which requires interference with another player) via spray weapons is not only fundamentally worse than that of a controller player, but they are going up against an opponent that, if they were on M&K would be called out for aimbotting (I do not care about your feelings. Aim assist is an aimbot in and of itself. It may be a bad aimbot, but it's an aimbot). Can it be worked around? Yes. Should I have to because they have an aimbot though?! NO!
It should also not matter in a casual setting. I'm playing to chill. I don't want to be feeling the sting to a person clearly being spoon fed help.
Yes, both parties may have agreed to play game X but the game they agreed to risk losing in is usually not the same. No one on M&K hops on and is like, "Gee, I want to face a lobby filled with controlla playazzz". Yes, they "technically" agreed to the possibility but the understanding beforehand was not the same.
To reiterate: the hate is not just because "oh we lost therefore winner bad". It's actually because of legitimate concern.
I'm a controller player but in every game that is giving me the option to turn off aim assist completely I'll choose to play without. Always has been like that for me.
Why
You’re clearly not in the top 5% of controller players then lol. Noob got too much of a big ego to use aim assist
@@fuadrahman2783 true
Noob!
@@fuadrahman2783 whys it even worth to get to the top if you are using an assist
Dashy is a really good example of professionals performing well on both m&k and controller. He is a top Call Of Duty player and a radiant val player
Pc players-"aim assist aim assist aim assist"
Consol players- 3x higher FPS, better visability, higher hertz, more range of motion and much higher fovs
Tap strafing,No recoil,super jump,moving while looting etc theres more but i forgot.pc players are bitches
I completely agree, its not a bad thing to separate Controller/K&M in separate brackets, but for goofing around in say a casual game in BF4 I personally use controller because I can’t get use to K&M. But in a competitive setting there should be a separate bracket or league for both
"Damn, I lost, I'm gonna accept the fact that, even though they are on a different device, they are better as we have equal advantages and disadvantages and this has been shown on in our fight"
-No gamer ever
people fail to consider that aiming is not the only thing in a gun fight!
we mostly in any game we have: close (smg shotgun), mid (assault, lmg), and long (sniper). Given a one shot sniper, mnk has a great advantage no doubt.
But when coming to mid and close range the controller is a cheat. Why i think that is because in most of the games, mid and close are not one shot. So when you aim with mnk you go faster to the point you want, but it's really hard to stay on point, and keep sustained shots. If the enemy moves it's even harder. On controller, you get the slow down sensitivity while on target and it sticks on the target with a lot more ease than with a mouse.
The only streamer i've seen talking about this is summit. Also in a recent podcast, Scump, Envoy, Hitch and Hecz from the cod scene agreed that mnk would not have an easy job in the league, even saying they would get outclassed the the cod scene wouldn't change that much. Envoy comes from a mnk bg and he said the same thing.
Controller pros: Close Range Aim, more comfortable button layout.
PC Pros: Yes.
Comfort is preference, close range aim 100% goes to mice. The only big advantage is aim assist
@@jamie31415 whenever I play in cross play games on my PS4 and kill a pc player they get mad about aim assist but I have it off in literally every game I play
@@jamie31415 they have better close range aim because thats where aim assist is the strongest
@Savage Cabbage I get the point that the game shouldnt give you any help at all. Quite frankly I shit on controller players their aim assist cant compete with mouse however I get the point of the game doing anything for you lowers the skill gap.
@Savage Cabbage "otherwise those complaining would switch to controller permanently if they actually thought there was an advantage over M&KB.
" some would and have already I'm sure, but most want to play using their own skill and not skill given to them by the software.
The thing is the whole gaming community never considered controller players gamers until cross play dropped in, Controllers were considered inferior until they came face to face with keyboard and mouse with its aim assist.
Steam controller wanted to kill aim assist with gyro. But everyone thought gyro was a gimmick. I play apex with a mouse and keyboard combo on ds4 with gyro and it slaps.
Then we have R6 where there's no aim assist and console is just worse than PC.
Edit bc I messed up some letters
Oh really? That's why its so bad for console players
There is aim assist in Siege and the recoil is way lower when using a controller.
There is no aim assist on console siege...
@@Midz350i the fuck are you talking about m&k has 0 recoil and on controller the guns are uncontrollable
@@starscream28 there is 100% recoil. You dont just plug in a mouse and completely abolish recoil. K&m players just have an easier time adjusting recoil patterns.
“It is such a good read” ..... “blah blah blah blah blah”
2:25 While true, aim assist can have an impact on those other factors. As the article states, aim assist is strongest 10-15 feet from the player. At greater distances, aim assisted thumbsticks usually underperform to the more precise mkb. So we'd expect that controller players might favor more aggressive, close quarters combat where their aim assist provides an advantage and position themselves accordingly. The article even mentions that mkb will try to avoid controller squads or hang back to preserve distance.
I can't say how much this will affect any given encounter, but it sounds like overall the mixing of aim assisted controllers with mkb has changed how the games are played and the outcomes of certain matchups and positions. Later in the video Shroud says that even an equal matchup of mixed teams will compromise the integrity. In part that's because the two sides are incentivized almost to play two different games, or at least styles of the same game, merely because of their input.
As of now and in relation to Warzone, like Shroud says, aiming is not the whole equation. However, from 21 top streamers/pros, only 3 of them are with a mouse, others are all controller. Go watch how they play. These streamers on controller run into situations where they are fighting 2-3 people at the same time. What saves them is exactly aim, they jump and run around and aim assist just keeps their aim exactly on the enemy, while the enemy is too busy trying to track them, the aim assist does it for these streamers and thats why they're so blindly aggressive and still win.
No theyre blindly aggressive because they know their playing bots and want content. In an actual competitive match (customs) they arent aggressive.
You can just tell how good shroud’s aim is he clicked that “X” on the tab so quickly at 1:24
Hot key
he didtn click the x its function a hot key or something idk also if you put in 0.25 speed you can see the first time he missed the tab and went back to the tab he wanted to delete (this is no hate ik shroud has godlike aim better than everyone else)
its ctrl + w
@@gniktfird yes ik I use it all the time XD I was just having some fun I love shroud especially those crazy clips of his aim than you for being respectful about it tho :)
@@gniktfird pretty sure he middle clicked the tab, that would close it
I'm so sick of the argument that there is more to the game than aiming, like knowing spawns etc etc. Doesn't change the fact that controllers have BUILT IN training wheels HELPING them aim. Mouse is pure skill.
What?!
maybe because joysticks are fundamentally harder to get precise movements compared to pc.
I know because I play on both.
then use a roller, oh wait u literally won’t.
Guys! Not sure if anyone else already did, but I figured out last night that on Black Ops Cold War with M&K if you’re at 400 DPI & a 6-6 sens, you need a 1.7 low zoom ADS multiplier for a 1:1 sensitivity between ADS & non ADS. My siege boys know how important this is.
If you don’t like 6-6 sens, do the 360 trick where you shoot a bullet spot on the wall while not ADS and then hold your mouse far left of mouse pad, and drag straight across to the right all the way and place another bullet mark. Then find a multiplier that emulates that exact bullet mark to bullet mark spin while ADS. This is your 1:1 multiplier.
there is often an option called legacy which will make it proper 1:1
As a m&k player, I don’t see a problem with aim assist on controller, if it’s done right and balanced. I think COD does a good job with cross play balance, BUT you still should be able to CHOOSE to not with m&k players, and vice versa
M&K vs Controller from my experience is all situational, to be honest it all comes down to aim assist strength and sensitivity on top of which guns are being used and the range they are being used at so for example controller is less skillfull at close range vs M&K, a prime example would be pistols in gun game in modern warfare or ar's in destiny 2 and thats why skilled players most of the time will pick medium to long range fights especially on M&K vs Controller players
KBM has been designed specifically for fluid movement for the last 40years.
Controller's can be used without aim assist, but not super effectively.
Aim assist is a contentious issue with KBM users because when a player is top tier they are doing all the work and their argument is that top tier controller players aren't as skilled purely because they use an assist to help them aim.
I can see the argument, but whenever a KBM player uses a controller, I don't see them complain about aim assist when it works.
When it works, you don't notice it being there, it isn't aiming for you, all it does is help you stay on target. It's a gentle nudge.
I'm sure there are players who don't us aim assist on console with a controller. But the majority don't even mess with their settings and just play.
I do think that there are a lot more casual players on PC than console however. Which you'd think would be the opposite ironically.
I just don't think it's fair a PC player shitting on consoles when their gaming platform of choice is basically 100x more powerful than the console player.
*Ninja can suck a D*
_He contradicts himself almost constantly._
AAK 540 There are multiple games where the aim assist on controller is very strong, there are many different types of aim assist, so saying aim assist doesn't aim for you, when in some games it does, is false. You're only speaking about the games where aim assist isn't a problem. If you're going to argue a topic like this, either name the games you're talking about, or acknowledge that there are some games that have very strong aim assist.
@@TyOn2Wheels314 You do realise there is aim assist in a lot of PC games too right?
Not just single player games either.
🤦🏻♂️
@Daniel Chettiar I have actually yes, I remember when PC games had aim assist options. Before console gaming was a multiplayer experience.
I'm probably older than you. Not that it's really a flex as being old sucks 😭
I'm both a controller player and a M&K player and I can tell you 100% when the aim assist works for me too good, I complain because I put a lot more effort in on my M&K to get just average results and beat by really below average controller players, But then on my controller I can play casually and do just as good if not better because my aim assist is carrying me
I use to game on a console for most of my life and recently switched to pc about a year ago(I’m currently 22). And I use to defend aim assist all the way but then when I started playing on pc and realizing how much you have to actually work to have comparable aim to a controller player is insane. The amount of hours I had to put in in aim trainers alone just to feel like I was somewhat close to my skill on console isn’t even funny. Now when I switch to play games on my console with some of my old console friends I literally feel the aim aids it’s helping me greatly to get a kill. Especially in apex/fortnight it’s like I barely aim on someone and I just stick to them. However with that being said I will say MNK does have an advantage when it comes to how good you can run games and how precise you can be at long ranges but, one it’s not cheap to have a great computer and two it still takes a lot more practice and skill to be better at those far ranges. But up close I’d say the average console player against the average pc player, the console player will win almost every time.
Thing is some players even pro players still use mouse and keyboard while having the controller setup keeping the aim assist and yes that’s a thing, there’s a new device similar to eagles eye that was used even years ago during the moder warfare 2 era that allowed you to use mouse and keyboard with aim assist, now that is a huge problem. Apex legends needs to do something about this
I like how it always was "why would you ever use a controller on PC?" Now it is "You need aim assist to win, noob." I aim much better with mouse and keyboard, but I struggle to use my ring finger or pinky along with having trouble pushing multiple keys at a time, so I use controller.
It's also funny because people on console players bitch just as much about K&M players for having "perfect" aim. I say just play with what makes you comfortable, and in tournament settings, that is on the organizers to decide.
literally only like 10-5% of PC players actually have good aim, the rest are dogshit, and can be beaten by anyone with a controller using aim assists and thus they are the ones mostly complaining about it outside of a competitive setting.
personally i think there needs to be m&k support for competitive console games that are cross platform, or have the ability to be cross platform, i.e apex, siege, fortnite, etc. Not only will this lower the gap between m&k and controller, but it will benefit all people because there will be more market competitiveness for better m&k products.
I’ve played controller for most of my gaming experience but I’ve noticed it’s way easier to turn a 180 on a mouse than the joysticks
That’s the main debate. Flicks are so much easier on KBM
@@DaggerofTime Can't flick if you're already dead.
I moved over from PS4 to pc and I couldn’t tell the difference when it came to aiming
@Alden Rumampouw I was trash as expected for the first couple days but I’d say it took me a good week to know my way around the keys. It also helps if you connect your keyboard and mouse to your console before your pc arrives. It speeds up the time and by the time your pc arrives you’d be good .
Aim assist doesn't mean you are snapping targets every time you ads.
At least in COD it just slows down whenever your crosshair is on a target
Cold war it locks on and follows after your ironsight/recticle is over the target,
@@Greendore nope go watch Ace
I've played knm since doom came out in 94. Trying to learn controller. Not sure why, but the aim assist doesn't seem to help. If there were two of me, one on mnk the other on controller, the mnk version of me would win. But, I watch how some people use controllers and it is amazing. As a pc player I don't complain, I like having cross play and more people to play with.
At the end of the day I move my mouse, the reason I hit shots is completely because of my skill, there a system in place for controller players that literally adjusts there aim to be on target and track enemies more effectively. The reason i hate getting killed by controller is because its not the player killing me through their own skill, but a combination of skill and a systematic advantage. Getting killed by a cheater gives the same feeling as seeing someones aim stick to me and track me perfectly and unnaturally because of aim assists, the death doesnt feel fair.
i dont really think aim assist will be fixed or whatever and i dont care. ill still be good and do well in the majority of games, sometimes a controller player will get lucky and his mp5 will stick to my chest in cqc and i wont have a chance. such is life. but i wont ever afford controller players the same respect as mouse and keyboard.
Same here I play controller without aim assist so I can clearly see when someone who does have it kill me because at times it doesn’t even look like it’s helping at times it looks like it does all the work especially in warzone
@@hailstorm4398 yeh warzone has some prety insane locks
Depends on the game take cod mw for example the aim assist in that game is so minimal it doesn't actually matter it only works when side strafing you don't get aim assist in any other instance
@@mitchellmiller6644 yeah multiplayer is alright nun crazy the locking on like warzone doesn’t happen all it does is help track but warzone is like legit aim bot
As far as my experience go , i started gaming 20 years ago with mouse and keyboard when consoles were only used by casual non competitive players . Because of that i learned how to play mouse and keyboard and some years after, i stopped playing competitive and i bought a console .... OMG first time i played an FPS with controller i was like "wow i cant land one shot with this " i passed from a professional CS 1.4/1.5/1.6 player to a guy who couldnt finnish an fps main story in easy mode . Because of that i ve always considered MnK superior . Years past and i started to get better and better on controller and everytime i saw people complain about controller aimassist i was always defending myself saying that controllers need to have aimassist because mnk is far superior ....until ..... i bough a PC and i start playing mnk again and i was still getting melted by controller users in any ways possible and i changed opinion . the confirmation of my opinion came when i asked my dad do something extremly simple on mnk "i said him to click the text document icon and write his name " and he wasnt able to do it ... because he was nurse all life and he wasnt interested in tech . Moral of the history ..... Mnk has faster learning curve but on the moment you reach that level on controller controller becomes far more superior because aim assist is no other than soft aimbot ... for some reason in games that allow you to play both devices ... controller completly dominates the leaderboard there only like 1 or 2 mnk players on the top 20 ... so until people understand that my generation grew up playing competitive on mnk ....young adults nowadays play often in controller ... and is crazy how much precise my nephew(8 years old ) can be playing like controller on touch screen xD so until people understand that expertise comes with practice ( example some people is more precise throwing stones than other people using a gun ) and they remove aimassist from the games .... Controller is superior !!! however i know i needed 6/7 years playing on controller to reach that level so i do not think is fair either to take that long to master .... so the solution for me is not mixing devices and let people be better using the device of their preference playing against others with the same device .
The hardest parts of this video to watch are when shroud keeps on saying how he "could care less" about this and that. It's when you couldn't care less that shows you have no care left to give.
i was shocked the other days about how COD warzone has so many controller players. i was checking on Twitch and realized that Warzone's top 10 streamers or something are mostly controller players, it's insane. Meanwhile, in Apex there are still many controller players but the top pro players and streamers are still mostly Mouse+Keyboard players. it's almost the same on Fortnite as well.
I mean Cod has been and will always be a console dominated game. So the fact that all the top streamer play on controller shouldn't be shocking to you in the slightest. Fortnite and Apex both had massive starts on PC so their main player base uses m&k so the top steamers would also be using m&k. Idk maybe my brain just works differently but I thought this all was pretty obvious.
@Aiden Saiz The main player base uses controller now because the game has been declining at a rapid pace and hardly anyone plays it now. PC players moved to different games like Tarkov. But in the beginning it was largely by PC. Almost 60% of the 50 million users in the first month of launch came from PC. I get what you're saying there was still a ton of controller uses but since most streamers use a PC to stream they would just naturally use m&k to play anyway was the point I was making. And Apex had a huge player base both on console and PC where COD has literally never had since recent years. And that's the difference really.
@Aiden Saiz My guy you're literally not understanding what I'm saying. You're just commenting to be right about something that has nothing to do with the point I was making. If you cant understand the point don't comment. Cause now to me you just look like someone looking to argue something cause you've had a bad day or you don't have a social life. And I'm not into that sorry. I literally gave you statistics and examples and your comeback is just "no I'm right for no reason with no evidence just cause I say so." Its not a good look kiddo. But hey good luck in life with that mentality. Peace friend.
People have an issue with Aim Assist because it is called Aim Assist. The name makes it sound like it the game helps you aim. It's not aim lock. If you have trash aim, aim assist won't do crap to make it better. All aim assist does is slow your sensitivity down when you're already on target. Maybe slightly before you aim on target for the heaviest aim assists.
Then you have games like War Zone where you can choose how much it slows it down and when. I use precision aim assist. This means my crosshairs have to be on target before it slows my sense. It's this complete lack of understanding that drives me nuts about this silly argument.
I agree though, competitions should not be mixed between MK and Controllers. That's like the NFL allowing the teams to use different sized footballs on their offense.
Yea for comp it's one or the other. I use both depending on game and how competitive. If I want to sit on my couch its controller. I'm old now so I dont do as much pvp/sweaty matches. But if I was, I would want everyone on one style of controls.
@@monitorlizard9971 lol. Thanks for proving you have absolutely ZERO idea of how aim assist works. You just assume shit because of the name. There's no target locking with Aim Assist. Maybe in some second rate shit shooter nobody plays. In every COD, all it does is slow your sensitivity when you aim ON target.
I used to play C.S. 1.6 competitively. I love both PC and consoles. Let me tell you, I'm 10x better with MNK. And I'd love to be put in a lobby with nothing but controller players. Flick shots for days no problem lmao.
You dont expect a mouse and keyboard to beat a controller on driving games, you dont expect controller to beat mouse and keyboard in fps games, each has advantages depending on the game.
There is literally NO real advantage for the controller except a more precise movent with the thumbstick. That is why the controller needs "assist". It's not an advantage, not a natural one at least if you use an assist that help you aim. It's even in the name aim ASSIST. The "advantage" of the controller simply depends on how strong is the assist.
Easier to shoot somone at a normal speed in a corridor.
Shroud, if I came up against you inside of like a shipment match whole im on my PC and on Controller, I might get 1 or 2 lucky kills. But yea, I never get worried seeing a stacked KBM team against me because none of them are on this dudes level and the matches are always the closest. I woke up this morning around 6am and hopped on MWII and used an LMG that I never used before so no attachments Icarus? And I went 96-20 almost dropped a nuke that game, then just kept demolishing games. The hardest part of KBM is movement for me. I learned aiming and sensitivity within a couple days to a week, but movement on COD, completely different.
Heres the solution of the debate in full (console player who went to pc): you dont see the huge advantage of aim assist if you havent fully developed the skill from one side and the other. Its simple, controller aim assist is necessary, however its the developers fault how strong the aim assist is. Without aim assist, controller players can suck really bad compared to M&K, however, games like COD and Fortnite clearly have piss poor development and give aim assist a massive boost. Thats why you see alot of pc players use controller. So shrouds right, m&k players and controller players should be seperate for tournaments. And aim assist definitley is a crutch, depending on the game. 2 most played games currently right now, have broken op aim assist. Therefor, fix the problem or handle it accordingly. Its fair to critique aim assist players, especially in games where its broken. All those controller players on pc who talk big game are ignorant trash. No skill, thats a handout. Which is why i refuse to give credit to guys like Nickmercs, Aydan, Bugha etc. COD and Fortnite are relatively easy, which is why i also dont give them credit, sure they are decent, but there KD isnt earned. Minus half there KD from handouts (like stream snipers and magnetizing aim assist for recoil control and accuracy), and tada, average. So imo, shrouds partially correct. M&k and controller have strong suits, but everything is skill with M&K bar none. Until your skilled in both, dont act like you know.
exactly. playing competitive xbox for 15 years, went to MLG and EGL events for Halo 2 back in the 2000s. Now im on PC. aim assist is needed for controllers but certain games have it WAY too strong. IMO every game needs to turn it down something very slight like 2%. I believe the top M&K guys skewed everything for the rest of the PC guys. developers want a bunch of controller users to compete against tfue shroud mongrul etc so the aim assist is wayyy up there.
the thing is' take a pair of identical twins and give one a controller and one a M&K....the controller one will kill the M&K one everytime for at least a month because there is just less skill required with the aim assist
Better frames, higher fov slider,and better overall management if you on pc there’s no reason u should be complaining, considering most pc guys wanted crossplay and when they lose they always find a way to blame a mechanic or something.
Man I haven’t watched you in a long time bro... you grew a beard!!!!!! 🔥
lol
But what is the matter? Only you need to know, that PC does 100% of any movement by themselves but roller in most games is getting helped 40-60% by AI... those 40-60% are most valuable in-game where strafing side to side during a fight is common and if the 40% makes you overcome the delay between your eye, brain and hands, it just stupid... Why people should be at such an advantage just because they chose the roller? It is not forcing... it's the choice of each player. In high-end lobbies of apex, you can only beat roller on MnK with shotgun coz if you go head to head with same gun you will lose 9/10 times every time since you simply have to react on sudden movement of the strafing player... but roller will get kick start by AA doing the change of directing for them
alot of my friends play warzone on PC and always say my KD is high because of my controller. I always say hey I have 5 controllers. I can send you one so you can use it and they just shut right up. PC players shit on controller players for aim assist but they wont even try it because they know its harder deep down. PC players just need an excuse for losing to a better console player tbh.
Like I know your talking about warzone but a bunch of streamers complain about it and they play controller on fortnite one time and they are trash and they still complain
@@DILL-CEASE I will say that the fortnite aim assist is a little too strong at times
Controller takes less effort than kbm. But In games where the ttk is really fast, keyboard is better
Even Shrouds text highlighting is God Tier
I really value shrouds opinion on things. He seems really wise. He always backs his points up with an explanation and generally isn’t overly biased towards a certain opinion.
He has never played with aim assist hes only ever played against it.
@@TheClownkillingGamer How do you know that he hasn't test aim assist with a controller?
@@TheClownkillingGamer what’s your point ?
My god, why does Keyboard and Mouse players not support gyro controls for controllers. If more people pushed for developers to implement gyro instead of aim assist there would be no need for this discussion.
I think aim assist should not exist in any console shooter, the skill gap would be huge and would really separate good from average. That said, if you are doing cross play, aim assist is the only thing that makes it sorta balanced, if it didn't exist mouse would absolutely dominate in ever instance, a controller with no aim assist is infinitely harder that using a mouse
Aim assist is something people don't understand properly.
For example. If someone who hasn't played any FPS game ever in their life. They would do better with mouse and keyboard than a controller without aim assist.
People think it's like aimbot. Which is not true at all. It just slows down your crosshair speed over the target. That's all
@@Stimzz i don't get this opinion and i try hard to understand why people say it's necessary, I played console (on controller) for all my life until around a year ago when i swapped to pc and kbm, but i often play on controller in a few games when i don't feel like swinging my arm around (fortnite and cod mostly) but i still think even with all my time on controller its not necessary, i think aim on controller can indeed be perfected with the same amount of time people on kbm put into their aim, i feel like most controller players are used to being aimed for and dont wanna actually have to try hard to aim like everyone on keyboard does i never really understood how no one else on controller thinks it's not necessary
@RXVAS games like COD? Yes. The aim assist is fucking bonkers in that. The fact that you can change the intensity on that is broken. Compare that to that on something like Apex. The difference like night and day. I play both on MnK and controller. The only game where I feel like the aim assist is spot on is Apex.
@@ahbin given the time, obviously people would adapt. But starting to play on controller without aim assist is would be next to impossible. People would just not play tbh...
The double “woah” when it keeps bringing up Twitter haha.
My thoughts on aim assist. From distance its really helpful. Spraying a sniper or a running character. In a close quarter combat situation, a player running behind who your aiming DRAGS your cross hair and basically forces you too miss. I've had this happen in many 3v1 situations.
Also, I don't think any of the benefits of a mkb are really weighed against that of a controller. The movement/agility is so far ahead its insane. Actions are executed so much faster, and yes aim assist often is a DISADVANTAGE in many scenarios. Field of view. Variable aiming sensitivity. Better graphics. Etc.
In my experience it's the opposite. If I'm using a sniper and trying to track someone running to the side, the aim assist will often slow my sensitivity so much that he outruns my crosshair and I have to un ADS and re scope in in front of him to take a shot and if I turn off the aim assist and I try to shoot someone 20' away with a machine gun I have to go into hyper focus mode to have a chance of killing him. That might just be me tho haha
@@krag3405 I used to play counter strike on PC and was an absolute laser. Even wall bangs , ez 1 taps with AK. I switched to controller and cod and I stuck big time. It throws me off. I'm too used to the feeling of my cross hair going EXACTLY where I want it. So my tracking awful and my headshot aim suffers as well. I play Rust which has no aim assist and I beam. Even with awkward recoil weapons.
I get where Mike comes from when he says M&K shouldn't compete against controller for money because there are advantages and disadvantages to each of them. However, it's the same as most pro sports. Take F1 for example. They have to balance aero compared to powertrain and chassis etc. Even sports like swimming in the ISL, there's some part of compromise for different strokes, different techniques, different focuses etc. You can't be the best at every single aspect of the sport, there always has to be some compromise. Which is what choosing controller over M&K is, and vice-versa.
no goatee Shroud looks like he's 5 years -older- younger (oops) when it's just a year ago
Other way round you mean?
He looks older with no goatee? Goatee Shroud looks like no-gotee Shroud's uncle.
More like 15 years. Dude looks like my uncle and I’m 30
@@teringdeteringmanyes thank you x)
Its basically same argument in the Fighting community, hitbox having advantage over sticks and controllers. It'll never end.
Isn't this a Old "Clip/Video"? I saw that when Jake covered the Aim Assist Toppic.
I’m a controller player of 20 years, I played quake on the N64. Just the way I learned FPS. I turn aim assist off in every game, it hinders me more than it helps. Sure I could learn Mouse and Keyboard in maybe 2 months if I devoted time but playing with a controller is natural
I can’t believe this is still be heavily debated.
Say it with me:
IT’S THE OPERATOR NOT THE INPUT.
Always what matters most. Period.
About a year ago, I was heavily into Fortnite. Had Co-workers that were into it, had family that I played with., but I always played on PC, whereas they all played on console. I would religiously practice my aim, because I believe that was my weak spot. So every day I'd wake up, drink my morning coffee, and practice my aiming and building. Now, I know my friends and family enough to know that they never practiced. Yet, when we'd play, I'd get absolutely demolished by anything that was reliant upon tracking.
I think I finally learned just how strong aim-assist was in Fortnite, when I was visiting my sister and her family. I watched my niece (who at the time was 8 years old, and barely into video games) play Fortnite, I thought "Aww, cute". Watched her land nowhere near her team as most kids do, she landed on a gray AR and grenades. She took out an entire squad of 4. As I watched it, I thought to myself "she's going to get wrecked". Then she tossed the grenades, downed 2, and sprayed the remaining 2 with her AR. I just sat there, kind of in awe, wondering how a child was able to effortlessly do what I have spent hours upon hours practicing., and I came down to the conclusion that it was the aim-assist.
Even though console players had aim-assist, pc players had more potential.
nothing to do with human nature, its more like because PC gaming is plagued with cheaters, and its getting more ridiculous every year. im playing more than 20 years online games (very high level for UT for example back in the days). And even if we had many cheaters (mostly in games like CS,UT,Quake etc...) the amount you see today and how a whole industry around it evolved, selling hacks and cheats (just PC gaming btw.) just makes the normal player think twice in every situation they got killed. Because everybody knows how common cheating is nowadays in PC gaming, especially FPS games. You can not blame those people and just say "it is human nature when you lose you blame the other guy hes cheating blabla herpderp". No... because the thought is alwas there after you getting killed in a strange way and that for a REASON.
And when controllers come into play now on top of that. Which are like aimbots lite. There is no way to deny that. Yout gotta be retarded to not admit that. You don't even need experience of like 20+ years like me to understand and see that. This makes people pissed and rethinking every time they get fragged because there is always this doubt in your head.
Bro its true its so hard to not be pissed at cs, im getting better at it but its hard me an my mates 5 stack were climbing to global together again we all LEM and when ever I get deleted i always second guess myself not even on purpose its because its like fuckkk is he legit ? i try to just assume they are but then you go to there account and is fresh as fuck its like fuck sakes, but at the same time playing against cheaters all the time makes you so much better at the game and thankfully there isnt that many blatant cheaters most of them closet cheat so you can still beat them
any thoughts on razor and shaving foam ?
The advantage on controller is instantly gained, but on pc flicks you have to learn. Auto aim is just not health for anyone it causes laziness
Can u do flicks on controller ? No.
Movement is also faster on pc, aim assist isn't always headshots
@@3self with ADS shooting games yes. pull your aim trigger when looking 3 feet to the right of the opponent and let the aim assist bring your aim dead center mass on the enemy. the aim assist does you flick for you without error.
As an ex console player who then transitioned over to controller on PC, before finally switching to MKB... in my opinion, aim assist is generally way too strong. When I used to play BF1 on PC with controller I would top the scoreboard most of the time. Once you get on target the enemy is dead. I could also turn very quickly. I generally have good game sense so that helps.
@@MadWatcher I think it's more that it's extremely strong in COD
M&K users have every advantage. M&K is easier to aim and provides better movement.
Yeah... the main reason people complain is because of gaynites strong aim assist. It’s literally fair for every single other game
@@fuadrahman2783 Fortnite aim assist is fair buddy, it's so sad how much advantage kbm has yet they complain when a controller player wins.
For a moment, I got scared that pops shroud is gone abruptly and old shroud is ban...
But, then I remembered it's a clip from an old stream. :3
I’ve been playing video games on console for yeaaars now and after trying pc i can definitively say that people should look at all the advantages pc player have over console player :
- perf are much better. 144 fps on apex pc vs 29 fps on ps4 fat
- respond time from a gaming monitor is 10 time better than a TV.
- 10 years of aim training on console will never get up to 6 month of aim training on pc for sure.
- mkb give you such an advantage in movement and precision over console it’s literally indecent.
I give aim assist to console player everyday when you see all the advantages pc players get.
I agree 100%. Honestly these whiny PC people need to get good or stop blaming others for it.
@@boygenius538_8 There shouldn't be crossplay, i am fine with aim assist, but then everyone should have it, better not having crossplay on shit like APEX.
even if the winning condition is not based on pure aim but only tactics and movement.... you need to realize that still aiming is like 80% of winning a FPS game
One thing I'd like to say about all of this aim assist stuff is if someone is a console player they usually have aim assist off because it feels like you are fighting the controls. At least that is how I am and my friends are.
I play with a high sens to counter the aim assist. Still doesn’t work sometimes but I don’t complain whenever I get whipped on by a guy with a mouse pad the size of my TV screen either. It’s like Shroud said, there’s advantages to both, controller isn’t just this OP thing that just makes you win.
@@trentmckenzie343 exactly but every first person shooter has the option to turn of aim assist so you can find it in the controls some other games don't but they are usually single player or aren't about shooting
@@alexanderkauffman1095 Right, but that will give an advantage to KBM players. It’s much easier to aim without aim assist with a mouse than with a controller, and I speak from experience. I’m with shroud, I think the two should just be left separate in competitive play. One league for controllers and one league for KBM. Crossplay is great but if people are going to complain about it then why do we have it to begin with?
@@trentmckenzie343 I think having cross play on first person shooters was a bad idea because of how the aiming works
@@alexanderkauffman1095 Crossplay would be fine if people wouldn’t complain about either party. Not saying it’s just KBM players who complain, there’s plenty of controller players that think KBM is OP. The fact of the matter is that there is no comparison to be made between KBM and controller. They are mechanically different, and have different pros and cons. So you can’t compare the two and make a conclusion about one being better than the other, and say you’re comparing apples to apples. I think the argument between controller and KBM should just be dropped as a whole. And they should have regulations in tournaments that allow only controller or only KBM. Platform is kinda irrelevant, unless it’s a game like Rainbow 6. In summary, the whole argument is dumb in my opinion.
I was kinda hoping with next gen consoles they would reinvent the controller and find a way to make it accurate enough without the need of aim assist.
I've always supported and loved the idea of cross-play. However, i always hated aim assist and never expected in my wildest dreams that developers would allow non aim assist players to interact with aim assist players. from a mouse/non aim-assist player it legit looks and feels like aimbot (because let's be honest thats kinda what it is).
Aim assist isnt aimbot youre just lying to yourself. Maybe youre just bad at wtv game youre reffering too...
@@unclebary1866 go try km AAaimbot roller. Watch the killcams while you Getting wacked by AA meron
Makes sense to split competitions into mouse & Keyboard vs league and controller vs league