ADDING MORE LIBRARIES just sounds 🙉🙉🙉? Here’s WHY! Orchestral balancing with CC7🎛️ + mic positions🎙️
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ม.ค. 2023
- Alex dives deeper into sonic perspective:
This time he tries to combine different sample libraries. As they are recorded differently, it is not an easy task to make them blend together. After an excursion to MIDI CC7 and mic positions, Alex shows you the right tools and techniques to achieve your goal: a great sounding orchestral mockup.
Virtual Orchestration is a collaboration between Berklee College of Music (Boston, USA) and Orchestral Tools (Berlin, Germany).
Credits for assets used:
Loading Overlay - TH-cam user: @tatyanah9434
SFX :
The following sounds provided by freesound.org under
CC0 1.0 Universal (CC0 1.0) - Public Domain Dedication
Alarm sound 1 - User: Kinoton
Alarm sound 2 - User: guitarguy1985
Alarm sound 5 - User: Latranz
Microwave Sound - User: Reitanna
Whoosh Sound - User: Sheyvan
Spring Birds - User: 1ratatosk1
Far LA traffic - User: conleec
Dutch Forest - User: hz37
Cliff Waves - User: chris_dagorne
City Ambient - User: makkaydani
Calm Forest - User: ShortRecord
Alarm sound 3 - User: o_ultimo
Attribution 3.0 Unported (CC BY 3.0)
Alarm sound 4 - User: sonically_sound
Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)
______________________________________________
Additional Music:
Lastly Elevator Music track:
"Local Forecast - Elevator"
Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
_________________________________________________
Video creation credits:
Script 📜 : Alex Lamy, Eduard Flemmer
Music 🎶 : Alex Lamy
Script Consultation 🔍 : Sascha Knorr, Hendrik Schwarzer
Camera 🎥 and Editing ✂️ : Fabián Barba Hallal
Lighting Concept 💡 : Clemens Barth
Motion graphics 🎨 : Michael Logar
Production Assistant 🎬 : Aleksi Oksanen
#virtualorchestra #orchestration #education
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Never heard such important tips and precious information from any other channel or even music teachers on the web. Am extremely delighted to have found this channel. Expecting more tutorials 😊
What a fantastic tutorial!!! And you really nailed it!!! "The most important tools is your... Ears" .But let me add... Educated ears!!! ❤
These one is the channel that we want! Thank you for it
Hey, thank you that like it and tell us.
These new videos are very clear and easy to understand. I've been stuck with these questions for a long time, and you helped clear up a lot of confusion!
Great to hear, Donovan!
Thank you, Donovan. Words like these are really supporting =)
I never do score type stuff but this is incredibly useful and exceptionally well made.
Hey Meche, thank you for your comment and your support. 💛
Brilliant Alex! I have a TON to learn from you!
Cheers, Sean! Looking forward to all the other videos from the faculty! 🎶
Alex.... you blown me away, such a short video yet compact, now I know how to tweak 2 different libraries
Wonderful solo in the end
Thanks a lot guys !
Your channel is the only one I have enabled notifications on !)
Looking forward to the new lessons !
Regards, Yaroslav Kniazev.
Great video. I think a lot of us, myself included, overlook the importance of the mic positions. So much great info here!
shout out to the video production!
Our video creation team is grateful for your comment and shouts out "Thank you" to you. 📣📣📣
Thank You Very Much!
🙂🙏
This was very helpful! Thank YOU!
Excellent instruction! Thanks.
Another brilliantly clear tutorial, thanks Alex! Even in my limited compositional experience I've found myself mixing sample libraries so this is certainly useful information to getting the best out of them.
I'd assumed spot mics and an overall room reverb might be the solution to your balancing quandary so it was interesting to see you debunk that idea while also explaining why it isn't the right way to go about it.
Thank you for these videos, they are so helpful and very well produced! Well done! :D
Waited for this Sunday release..♥️🤗
Very good insight into mixing and matching sounds. It can get really tricky when you are using a library with only one mic position (like, say, Berlin Orchestra) and another library with many mic positions (like, say, Berlin Con Sordino Strings). Do you compromise the sound of the latter to make it work better for the former, or are there tricks with reverb or stereo field placement that can help with this? I've used plugins like Precedence to help with this, with varying results. I like that you say the ultimate tool here is your ears!
Good question. I think if you’re trying to match sounds there shouldn’t really be a compromise, it might be just taking out an element you think is nice, like close/spot mics for example. If it were the other way round, you could use reverb to add space back in once everything is balanced, but there’s no plugin solution for getting the right sound to start with. I think stereo field placement is a different matter. Many things are recorded in place in the stereo, and I find even small adjustments can end up with very strange results and end up becoming quite mono sounding, so I’d be careful with that. I often adjust the width of a section rather than the panning, unless I’m going for something extreme. At a push, if I had a library with only one mic position where the sound wasn’t right and I had to use it, Sonnox Inflator can do a good job of bringing something forward - but I do think this is more in the mixing sphere than the mockup one. 👍🏻
Hey Alex, this is so cool!
I find it remarkable how well you portray it visually as well. I personally learn a lot through this method and I am very grateful to you for it.
Many many thanks! Please continue :)
Thank you! Yes, i’m a big fan of visual learning and anecdotal examples. I’ve always learned the most that way 😊
Also it should be said that we have a wonderful team making these, with really great ideas that go into graphics 👏
Just starting to create the 'one template to rule them all' with BBCSO and Synchron as the main frame.
This was great. Thanks! subbed.
Thank you for a very precise and clear information! I though, still think that the Tom Holkenberg Brass is too loud in this mockup.
Yeah it was really powerful
Hey Martijn. Thank you so much for your very nice comment💛. Yes that was the challenge : To find something that is really hard to balance in order to bring our point across. If you still find it too loud, you may turn CC7 even more down in your projects 😉. As Alex stated... The final technical tool is 👂
@@virtual.orchestration I don't think anyone is wrong here, the TH brass is loud! It could maybe come down a bit more, but if we just turn it down then we're in the same area as our first video covers, where we're turning a loud signal down and then losing a sense of realistic balance. If the brass is too loud or brash for your liking then probably the way to solve the issue would be to reduce the dynamic a bit, as well as the volume. In this case obviously I wanted it to be full beans.
This is really fantastic.
Your comment is too. Thank you.
This was a fantastic video. You earned a subscriber. thank you!!
Great video, explained and clarified many open issues
Thank you, Stephan. 💛
Wow,amazing explaining thank you very much it really helped to understand dynamics and volumes 😊
Hey Yadin. Glad that you enjoyed our video and that it made some things clear for you.
I love this channel
We love your comment
That was super useful! Much smarter than tweaking each instrument volume fader directly as I have been doing
Hey John. Thank you for your comment. Cool that you took something out of the video. 💛
Nice video and very informative
Thx for your appreciation!
Good stuff again :)
Thanks, Chris!
I learned this way to late. Even when you use the Berlin Series only for example.
Great video. I'm a beginner and hobbyist and this channel (at least according to the channel info) is aimed at people like me. This is maybe a bit too advanced for me (at least the mic position topic). I hope I'll learn more about composition, arranging and orchestration techniques here. I consider these even more helpful. Thanks for the really valuable content.
Thanks for the comment! We’ll be somewhere between arranging, orchestration and technical stuff, so I’m sure there will be something useful to you. Hopefully even these types of episodes sink in subconsciously though, and come to mind next time you’re making music!
Hey Jens. Some videos do contain a little more complex infos. However, when you start with a composition and are using 2 (or even more) different sample libraries in your project, you will directly face the challenge we are talking about here. So even if it may seem a little complicated, you may run into it sooner than you want.
We appreciate your kind words and take your topic suggestions with us. Thank you for the really appreciative comment.
Looking forward to being able to control Sine mic positions with assignable CCs. Opening the player for each and every Sine patch is a nightmarish waste of time.
Yes, that would be helpful! In the past I've done this by using multiple outputs from SINE, and then bussing them to a group to control the master amount.
If you're interested, I have a video walkthrough on Berlin Con Sordino Strings on Orchestral Tools TH-cam page where I show that.
Great video! Lot's of very useful tips. I was just wondering on when to use CC11 (expression) vs CC7 (volume). Is there any difference or particular use case to use one or the other?
Keep these going, I love it!
We will have a video on CC11, but the basics of it are CC7 is for static setting overall volume, and CC11 is for programming changes in volume related to performance. One is like a fader, the other is about shape of the music. CC7 usually controls the master volume in the sampler, and can be quite juddery if you program curves.
Great content ! Personally I use a gain insert to balance my libraries instead of CC7
Neat idea. I tend to use a gain insert to do my volume automation, and leave the main faders un-automated. I think CC7 is a bit less scientific, but I usually make the assumption that 90 is the starting value of 0dB, and every 1 in MIDI CC increments is 0.3dB. Not sure every library works like that, and any change to the volume curve would change that value, but it’s a good starting point.
@@alexlamymusic Seems like a good process thanks for sharing ! I actually use clip gain as a first step to automate each track and I then use the volume faders to fine tune the automation at the very end if needed.
Good ideas. I personally never heard of cc7 so at least I learnt something. In saying that the brass was way out in terms of the mix. Way too harsh to my liking But that’s just me
Definitely the style of that library! It has more to offer of course, but when putting this together I wanted to deliberately choose something that was hard to balance. So overly-loud cinematic brass vs. softer symphonic strings seemed the way to demo it.
Also worth saying that these demos so far are all straight out of the box without any additional mixing or reverb, as we wanted really to demonstrate that you can get things balanced first with programming, rather than rely on other processing.
@@alexlamymusic great thank you.
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
💛💛💛💛💛💛💛💛💛💛💛
Howdy, @alexlamymusic -- I just discovered your channel yesterday and am really enjoying the content. I didn't fully understand in this one why you said that using the DAW faders is more cumbersome (I can't remember at the moment the exact description you used) than using CC7 when you can select all those faders at once and pull them down vs having to copy and paste a CC message to every affected track. What am I missing?
Copy and pasting isn’t cumbersome, especially if you can do multiple groups or libraries together. I just find that (especially if you’re using software instrument tracks) that dealing with the mix straight away with 100 faders isn’t the best way of starting. If you can get things balanced without it, then the mixer faders can be used for trim and automation as needed, and not for maintaining the “correct” level at all times.
Using cc7 makes Zero sense.
Is there a way to do the adjustments to CC7 for library ballance in Cubase the way you did in your DAW?
It’s the same in Cubase. Any midi region can have a CC7 lane open. It’s useful to make a preset for CC1, CC7, and CC11
Great info Alex! One challenge for me is: I own BBCSO Core (which has only one mic position), and today I'll be buying Berlin Orchestra (which has only one mic position)...so in mixing the 2 libraries I'll have less options for balancing via mic positions. Do you have any additional guidelines for mixing 2 libraries where they each have only 1Mic Mix available? Thx for these video gems!
I don’t think you’ll have many issues mixing them together from my experience with them. In some ways I find the Berlin Orchestra a bit more Classical in the mix, where the percussion can sound quite deep and distant. In most cases I think you can just make a choice on which sound works best for the type of music you’re making. I think the winds on the BBCSO mix could be better for solo passages, and the Berlin better for orchestrated textures, for example. I think the strings will blend together well enough, once the volumes are matched. And the brass I think you literally play by ear. It was the weakest part of BBCSO for me and so I’d probably be reaching for the Berlin samples more often there.
@@alexlamymusic Thx. That's good info regarding using one library for, say, Brass and another for Winds. But I was actually wondering more about using sections simultaneously (layered). I've seem impressive results where for instance, 2 brass libraries have been layered together for an overall hybrid color/texture. I suppose with only one mic mix the best I can do is be attentive to the volume balances btwn the two libraries, as you suggest.
@@jade8538 I see stuff about layering quite often, but I'm never totally sold by it. I think there are instances where you might put the same lines together on different libraries/patches, but when I do that there's always an intention behind it. It's not "This doesn't sound good enough, better layer it with something", but more like "I don't have the definition I need from this sound yet, or the broadness". In many cases using a different library or patch actually gives me what I want, or of course turning the spot mics up, or the room mics on in a patch with mic options - so choosing the right sound to begin with is half of the job! But I never layer anything without intention. Perhaps the only exception there is horns, but the intention is to get a bigger sound when I do that, and not every library is going to need it, or work together, so it's just testing things out until you're happy.
That's all mostly about the 'sound', but there are times when layers or combinations of things are there for technical reasons. Adding in solo brass on ensemble chords is common, or layering staccato samples over sustains during fast passages to get things to speak quickly, and so on. I nearly always layer short articulations when doing arpeggios or motors - but that's not to be epic, it's just to try and get something that sounds more realistic.
This is a really good topic, though, so thanks for the comment. I'm sure we'll cover this in a separate video at some point, but you've got me thinking now!
Is there a list of orchestral instruments and their CC7 volume levels of 0 dB like the french horn mentioned in the video?
Hi Jens, sorry I somehow didn't see this straight away. I've never seen a list, it seems like that would be a lot of info for every library out there! But there's an easier way to think about it. In SINE, there is a Volume Range for each patch accessible in the bottom right menu area. This can be adjusted and moved up or down and then the increments CC7 will then change to reflect that. In Kontakt it's similar, where each patch has a volume range set in the Instrument Options, in the settings. It's usually +6dB, meaning CC7 = turning the volume up to +6dB, but it can be set to have a maximum volume of 0dB, or -6db, or +12dB etc. This is just the range, though. If the sample/patch is loud, then it it will still be louder than another patch with CC7 at maximum. The dB amount in this case is just a relative reference for turning up or down. Within one library, you can assume everything is balanced already, and so turning things up or down for them default will do the same amount for each patch. When combining libraries, you'll have to use your ears as they won't have the same scale. Most developers use 90 as the default so there's some headroom, but you may also find that CC7 is set to 127 by default in some cases too - which I another reason why I'm an advocate of turning things down, not up! If you need to turn them up then you could turn up the channel and then turn down CC7 to taste, or adjust the volume range in the patch itself, and give yourself more headroom on the master volume within that. Hope that helps!
@@alexlamymusic Wow Alex, thank you so much for your time and detailed comment! That's sort of what I'm doing now. Regarding the "turning down": Yes, absolutely. I searched for the quietest patch in my template and give it a 127 to CC7. That meant I had to turn down all other patches to something between 60 und 120. "Within one library, you can assume everything is balanced already". That would be nice. For what I examined so far: differences in volume e.g. between articulations from one to another library (at least libraries of different developers) are huge.
Awesome! Why can't these academic musical institutions explain stuff as you do?
Why are there so many Chamber String Libraries by Orchestral Tools but virtually no Chamber Winds, Brass, etc.?
I think Tallinn is the only chamber strings library? Unless you count a smaller section size from Berlin Strings (which isn’t “small” when you play more than one note)?
The winds and brass of the main collections (and Berlin Orchestra by Berklee) have solo instruments as well as ensembles, so they can be chamber sized as required.
Good food for thought though. OT will always be looking for new ideas for libraries!
@@alexlamymusic Tallinn, Time Micro, Tableau, & assorted quartets, sextets, etc. are all Chamber Strings libraries...If we can just adjust mic positions from the core libraries why the specific String libraries?......Chamber libraries aren't just about the number of players, but the "Chamber" they're recorded in & I'm still not entirely clear on why there are dedicated libraries for some sections & not others. Thank you for your reply. I'm not trying to be combative, I've just always been curious about this topic.
Maybe making the point about reverb at the beginning would have been better. I guess making mockups for demonstration purposes versus creating a track that is for production have different needs and limits.
Possibly at the beginning would have been clearer, yeah. But it’s not that you can’t use reverb, it’s just that it’s not a good way of getting everything to have depth if what you need is a different recording perspective. Generally I’d stick reverb on things as needed whatever music I’m making, but we did want to start off just showing the results without additional processing or mixing, to really make the point that the correct balance and correct sound are 95% of the work to having a convincing mockup.
Guys, I bought the Berlin Orchestra yesterday on sale but upon installing it and trying to I realize that there's a huge latency no matter how low the buffer size is. Does this has something to do with the Sine player ? or am I doing something wrong? My buffer size is already 32, I am using Logic's Low Latency mode and I have a M1 computer. What could be wrong? Thanks in advance for the help
Sorry to hear that Reinold. Doesn’t sound right obviously, I’d get hold of Orchestral Tools support and they should be able help you out with the issue. It’s not something I’ve encountered before!
Hey Reinold. Did your problem get resolved until now ?
just got done with the others video ,lol
Hhh. Boom zap to everyone who just say there are no rules! (Your purpose sets the rules.)
There are no rules, are there ? 🤯🤯🤯
These analogies and metaphors with bicycles and houses are unnecessary.. better to demonstrate using the audio waveform itself, using spectrogram, vu meter, etc. Show the actual thing, the audio samples, rather than inventing wonky analogies for how the thing might, maybe, sort of be visualized, if audio were like a bicycle or a house, which it is not.
Thank you for your opinion. I disagree though, mostly because I think different people learn in different ways. Visuals and analogies won’t work for everyone, but the the alternative technical or musical explanations also can be bewildering or alienating if somebody doesn’t have an understanding of those things. Also, waveforms are not good examples, and true loudness/peak on a VU meter isn’t always the best way of analysing how much to turn something up or down. An analogy carries a thread that can describe more than one idea, and hopefully people can use that to relate to the technical issues we go on to demonstrate.
I’m sorry the examples we chose don’t come across well enough for you - in part it’s because this type of analogy/anecdote works for me, and that’s how I can communicate a more complex idea. Don’t give up on the channel! Some topics are more direct and hands on, others are more theoretical or philosophical.
Yeah, I absolutely disagree. The analogies help to understand. To each their own.
@@NicolasGalipeau145 the music world is filled with misinformation or misleading information. continue obscuring the actual fundamentals at your own peril.
@@superblondeDotOrg Damn, that's very serious.