I think the funniest thing about this Thief is how much it wrecks Gritty Realism games. I didn't realize that until someone reminded me those games exist. Link to the Kobold Plushie: my-store-c2baed.creator-spring.com/listing/buy-kobold?product=2444&variation=106876
Sorcerer 1 Theif X: Bonus action to spell rage, Cast true strike. Turn 2 Bonus action True strike (scroll doesnt matter if made or bought), Action READY true strike. You get all but free advantage and your DPR is high
fun fact in italian we don't have an exact translation for rogue so we call all dnd rogues thieves, and the thief subclass is called something like the scoundrel but I like to call it the thief thief
@@Chatterscompany I would think in most applications of the word, "scoundrel" fits. Rogues do what they do is some sort of underhanded way. Scoundrels are scoundrels because they're underhanded. The only rogue archetype where scoundrel wouldn't necessarily fit is the investigator/detective, depending on if said archetype manages to keep their hands clean or not.
That’s been my evaluation too since they released the 2024 changes. AT was the best rogue subclass simply because of what spell casting offers. However the sacrificing a sneak attack die to trip someone makes versatile trickster mostly useless, the expanded spell list makes spell thief unnecessary other than just a once a day cancel button on a spell. The expanded spell list is a fantastic buff for flavor and it heavily buffs the magical ambush ability. Really any subclass features after level 9 are seemingly unnecessary for AT. The thief with like 3 levels in wizard would absolutely be a better sneaky spell caster than the AT. If they wanted AT to feel more wizardly I think giving them a spell book like a wizard would be much better.
Honestly this reminds me of “items users” in lots of RPGs. I really like the concept of them and I might play a thief for my next character because of this. My first and only rogue was a thief and they had tavern brawler and would basically just throw random BS. My DM actually gave me a magic item that was a bag where I can grab a random item from it. It was fun.
I play a barbarian rogue with a full backpack... i really like the soul knife totem warrior, but thief is sounding pretty good. (rage advantage, expertise athletics, a minimum 10, and psionic knack) we just kind of accept that imma grab someone and bonus action dash away with them
Showering the martials in magic items is the time-old tradition to the martial caster gap. Because when you have so much spellcasting freely available for everyone it kind of stops mattering what class you are
So we've got a rogue who specializes in stealing and using magic items to make up for whatever shortcomings you might have as a character. So Big Jack Horner from The Last Wish. Fun.
A Thief with a Wizard dip is the Rogue I’m most excited to play. I think it’d be best with any elf to have shorter long rests, that means you can scribe a scroll while the party is resting any time you can get 12 hours of down time.
Elves get the benefit of a long rest after 4 hours of trancing, but that doesn't mean everything else that they could do during a long rest takes only 4 hours.
@@RokuroCarisu You rest while resting. Then you get a free 4 hours of scribing. That means all you need is 4 extra hours to finish a first level scroll, that’s 12 total hours.
Sure - elf / thief rogue / scribes wiz - make your own scrolls on a lower cd. I also think thief mixed with artificer making your own items could be cool
The best thieves know when it's best to go through proper channels and when it's best to go through your own! A locked-up thief is of no use, after all.
For spell scroll price: I think that scrolls will more likely follow the spellcasting services price tag (which is also in chapter 6). Cantrip and 1st level spell price for services completely match the scroll. It's funny how the ability to use spell scrolls as a BA (due to magic action use) makes this the best Rogue. I'll definetly play this if I get a rich campaign.
A Thief Rogue, with a single level multiclass in a caster class with True Strike, can cheaply craft a cantrip Scroll of True Strike (15 gold each); using the scroll as a bonus action and using its Action to Ready an Attack or to cast True Strike again on another turn, it can easily Double Dip on Sneak Attack. In 2014 there where tactics and multiclass to do this, but now for a Thief it is extremely easy and it can do this with both a melee or ranged weapon.
The thief was a class I fell in love with in a high seas campaign. We ruled that many actions aboard the ship were object interactions, mostly this didnt matter, loading a cannon was an object interaction instead of an actual "reload" action (as per "loading" weapons). Everyone gets an object interaction for free so this let everyone do their own thing, while still doing "ship" things on their turn. This made crew members valuable because they made things more efficient, load a cannon with your object interaction and on the crew's initiative round they'll fire it, then reload it. You could fire a loaded cannon as a free action or a main action, but as you only get 1 of those each per turn (haste and such notwithstanding) it would mean if you didn't keep on top of your reloads, you'd have "off" turns, since ship repairs, bailing water, changing heading and more were also tied to the free action. As you can imagine, having an extra object interaction meant my thief was able to make a much larger difference. I could reload two cannons instead of just one. Boat movement was handled like lair actions, where at the top of the round the boats would move in a path along their heading, being able to change the heading twice (alongside assistance from our druid) allowed us to be more maneuverable. I could raise and lower sails more often, I could make repairs twice as often (and I could use my action to "Help" our ship's carpenter, making the man doing the bulk of repairs even BETTER at his job). Still, all the while I felt this was such a niche case because of how the rules are worded. I know *most* DMs were of the mind to allow thief rogues to do what the *new* thief is doing, most DMs ive encountered were like "you're a thief? yeah ok you can use your bonus action to use a magic item" because the thief's entire gimmick was that it was a rogue who could use magical things without needing to dip a caster or be an arcane trickster. Now, of course, this just means the wizard is still the best class in the game. It just means that the BEST wizards are likely to start their career as thieves. Which makes me wonder just how meta we can get without dipping Sorcerer...
Something I think you might want to note (if you haven't already, it wasn't mentioned in the video) is how good the new Surprising Strike options are when combined with most spells or mundane equipment. DCs to break your ropes or manacles are a lot harder to achieve if you're poisoned!
I would add that the Rogue Thief is the most fun for a creative-thinking player. The bonus action can be useful for sooooo many options, both mundane and magical.
Wandslinger Thief is real. I would pump some breaks on the excitement over scrolls though. Making one takes considerable amount of downtime (which is scarce in most of campaigns) and 1000gp per party member is definitely not an early tier 1 quest. Lastly, let us not forget that to make a scroll you need special ink and paper which are available at towns at the DMs discretion. I don't know what group PackTactics is playing with but no DM I know would go like: 'Sure you can find and fund enough materials and spend a week, ignoring any and all urgency in the story to make few spell scrolls to break the balance of the encounters I prepared!'
From multiple other videos, I can confidently guess that kobold plays in high treasure games. Way more gold than average game, but nowhere to put it due to lack of magic shops. He gets like thousands of gp at tier 2, and has "unlimited gold" by tier 3. Not sure about his downtime tho.
Think about this logically like what is common in tier 1? 200 gold for quest complete + ofc the loot? the little silver ring is maybe 20 gold, the little statue is 50 gold and so on. Skin the dead wolves, sell the skin to a leatherworker or whatever they're called. With tabletop freedom you can basically make money out of anything, it's a reward for creativity. Sometimes that doesn't work because you're playing curse of Strahd or some other brutal setting but for majority of games even with low magic items setting, getting money is very easy. Also time sensitive quests: They absolutely exist but usually as soon as you finish a quest, you can have a few days of downtime. With you and the wizard having a single day of downtime, In 16 hours both of you create 4 1st lvl scrolls in total for only 100 gold and you get the long rest. That should be enough for an adventuring day. You also have your slots from 1st lvl wizard dip, that's 2 slots, Arcane recover that's 1 and 4 scrolls so in total you have 7 resource slots. That's as much as like a 4th level caster. That's should be enough to complete the next quest.
@@arcturuslight_ You should have unlimited gold by tier 3 if you have a full caster. Also the DMG has guidelines for the amount of loot you should be getting.
WotC: I know, we should let the spell casters craft a 9th level spell scroll in 120 days (and can sell and make 50000gp profit) or just craft a 1st level spell scroll a day (and make 25gp profit per day), but someone proficient with smith tools has to take 150 days to craft plate armor (and make 750gp profit (5gp per day)) This just made me check Xanathar's crafting magic item (which sets crafting in work weeks (5 day)), and it takes 30 work weeks to craft plain plate armor, 25 work weeks for +2 armor and 10 work weeks to craft +1 armor. Makes sense that you can craft +2 plate armor faster than you can craft plain plate armor.
Thief Rogue/Bladesinger multiclass might be the gishiest gish in the game now. Consistently casting spells (not just blade cantrips) and making weapon attacks on the same turn. Sounds super fun.
I think one thing you need to consider when serial-casting scrolls is the limit of one free object interaction per turn, unless the DM lets you carry an entire stack of scrolls in one hand. Of course, attack action plus bonus scroll is always possible even with only one free interaction per turn.
THANK YOU! This is one of the first awesome interactions I noticed when first looking through the 2024 rules and I’ve been waiting for someone to cover it. Very excited to play a thief/wizard with these rules
The oddest thing is the best litmus for any sort of magic item is spell components. Clerics seem to have the most varied and most annotated costs, so if D&D had a base economy it would be Cleric spell components. You could say equipment tables, but the cost of most equipment, even full plate is durable (more than a one time use) and still relatively inexpensive compared to spell components.
One thing to mention is that booming blade or green flame blade scrolls are super important because they let you get two sneak attacks around by bonus action to use the scroll and using you main action to ready an attack after your turn ends. Previously it was pretty difficult to do this consistently without help from other party members. 26 avg damage a round at level 3 assuming both attacks hit and your dex mod is 3. The cantrips also scale for more damage as you mentioned..
Also, another advantage of Fast Hands is that it lets you don or doff a shield as a Bonus Action. I don't really know if there is a build that can capitalize this, but I think it's nice little quirk.
Yeah, Mike from CCMC was talking about this. He got the idea from one of his patrons. The Brilliant Thief. Basically using fast hands to cast true strike from a scroll as a bonus action, then hold your action until the next turn to cast true strike normally to get two sneak attacks every round. You'd want to do this ranged with a shortbow for the vex property and because you've used your reaction that round and can't use uncanny dodge or shield, assuming you took the wizard dip. Expensive, but incredibly cool. And as Pack demonstrates, it gets better as you level up. Not only does true strike scale (and do radiant damage), but the capstone gives you FOUR sneak attacks in one turn. (At the cost of two cantrip scrolls) That's insane!
I've been exited about the thief rogue since the first time I saw it in the playtest. Back then it was seen through the lens of you cannot cast any spells other than a cantrip if you cast a bonus action spell. Seeing as that rule has changed, it has gone from great to incredible!
I think high elf will work decently well for thief rogue (provided getting a cantrip from your race allows to make it into a spell scroll), using bonus action fast hands to read a scroll of true strike, hold your action to cast true strike again on another turn and with the other thief features we should be able to manage positioning fairely well. 😂😊
You can make the scroll, but unfortunately can’t use the scroll. A spell has to be on your class spell list for you to cast it from a scroll, so a 1 level wizard dip would be a necessity.
In my experience, most GMs that run the gritty realism rules change all of the system’s features to match the longer timescale, not just rests (otherwise daily magic scroll scribing would be setting warping).
i think a missed point here was that rogues using cantrip bonus action truestrike can get sneak attack with that attack, then hold your action to get sneak attack again as a reaction, this is a 15 good investment each round, but reliable damage is worth it
During the playtest, I played a thief rogue levels 3-20 (we leveled up each session), and we had fun magic items given throughout the adventure, including scrolls! I had a wand of magic missiles which made my damage decent, but the real fun was the scrolls. We were given a good amount, and once I hit level 13 the party ended up giving most of them to me. It was a super fun jack of all trades caster at that point. Great video!
They were amazing in 2014 for all the same reasons. I played this exact same way all the way to 20th level and even got my hands on a Staff of Power and Holy Avenger (dagger). During one of the final fights I was also able to load a ballista as a bonus action with fast hands too and fire it at the boss repeatedly, it was incredible.
I thought exactly the same: being able to bonus action cast a level spell with wands, scrolls and staffs is just insane. Other youtubers didn't get the idea that the Thief is a caster like any other spellcaster, specially if you have a Wizard in your party.
Anyone else noticed two potential missing class from PHB 2024. All images of persons have text under them like " do something" or " doing somthing" and in book there are two images with text like "Inventor do something" "and "Investigator do something". Two missing classes, Inventor and investigator? Ranger put into book in place of this two classes, at last possible time?
Thief 9 / Illusionist 3 seems like it could be a fun build. Thief for all that thieving goodness, illusionist for the spells, and bonus action minor illusion in particular, in case there's no cover nearby, you can just create your own.
Even if a DM moves to nerf this somewhat, limiting you to one Magic action per turn, and limiting the number of spell scrolls you can create per day through gold stinginess, this is still good. Main action sneak attack, then a magic item, your own leveled spell, item or scroll as well.
I'd like to point out that the wands can be upcast. Level 7 Magic Missile as a bonus action with a 1-in-6 chance to not spend any of the 7 charges you blew from the wand is AMAZING. Have a dozen of those and you'll never run out of missiles to throw.
I think my perception of cost in DnD is not the common one. In my current campaign, our party recently hit LVL 9. Before that, our entire party income from all quests we did was less than 1000 total (we did get a handful of potions on top of that). And here Kobold is basically suggesting spending 150+ GP on a single encounter.
Usually, level 1 nets you enough to buy a tool or two, or maybe upgrade a piece of armor if you multiclass. Levels 2 and 3 normally let you upgrade your armor and/or buy your tool kits, and maybe a spell component or two. Levels 4 and 5 are normally when you're getting some real money. If you've scrounged, you're probably approaching buying your best possible armor before magic items. You may also have enough money to buy fare on an inexpensive ship already heading somewhere. The party could collectively buy a small cottage on the outskirts of town or a run-down business, if they haven't gotten any kind of home base or keep to operate out of. By level 6-7, you have plate armor money and the party could pool resources for a decent keep or a building downtown. You can easily charter a ship to sail just your party somewhere and back. Hirelings or followers are viable and likely already present. 8-9th level you're in the realm of expensive spell components, buying a ship or other vehicle for the party to sail on, or trying to buy relevant magic items if you have nothing better to spend money on. Beyond that gets wild. You'll likely see 10,000+ gold per player per level, and it will only go up from there. It's viable to buy a company, or possibly pay for a small standing army. You can also hire out teams of level 5+ adventurers to tackle tasks appropriate to their level that you can't be bothered with. That said, I've seen both games where by level 5, the party is lucky to have drinking money, and games where by 5th level, the party has thousands of gold to spend, or are decked out in magic items. It really varies by campaign, game tone, and table. It's part of why a session 0 is so important to set expectations and ask questions! If you want to play a resource-heavy character, it's important to ask the DM if your party will see a good amount of wealth and ample money-making opportunities, or if you'll be Cowboy Bebopping it.
Did you mention True Strike Scrolls? Cast with Bonus Action, then ready your main action for another cast(just get the spell for this one). At level 5 with a short bow, that’s 10d6+8 and you can focus Int over Dex.
7:50 To your point, double casting is quite a bit better than casting with adv/dis because if you hit with the first you can do something else with the second: different action, spell, target, or just do the same thing and get double the damage. Can't do that with adv/dis.
One of my favourite moments in dnd was when the fighter/hexblade realized that Wand of Magic Missiles didn't require attunement, so he used Action Surge to dual wield two of them, spending all charges with his hexblade's curse, dealing 18d4+90 force damage with no save. (he made sure to wait until after they spent their reaction because he knew they had the shield spell prepared)
You could also make an int or cha based thief rogue that focuses on making true strike scrolls. Use your bonus action to cast true strike and ready nother true strike to get 2 sneak attacks per turn
Lvl 9 feature is great for what I call hidden in obscurity X (rogue, ranger, barbarian? Etc) hiding inside something like a fog cloud (we'll need blind sense, but the skulker feat would have been a good choice anyway) and maybe a spell like blink will really make it hard to pin you down. (I'm starting to really like gestalt artificer {probably battle smith}/rogue thief, since artificer gets a lot of great spells, reduction for magic gear crafting, CON save proficiency, high AC and we benefit massively damagewise from rogue. I might still be missing some other reasons why this would be a great combo.)
Man the Thief rogue looks very fun an thematic now, but as an Arcane Trickster fan, I wish Versatile Trickster did something with Magic Items or Spell scrolls too, instead of the tripping feature they have :/
There are two requirements to making a spell scroll. 1. The ability to cast the spell you want on a scroll. (You are not required to be a leveled spellcaster.). 2. Proficiency with Arcana OR Calligraphers Tools.
Here is my idea about using scrolls for money. Magic shops don't have to exist if there is a guild for adventurers. Or just for mercenary work of any sort and class. Because scrolls are so useful it would make any who can use them drool. So naturally such guilds may have in house shops to restock certain niche items. So you could be dropping scrolls while looking for a quick job before the next big haul.
Thief rogue is also REALLY good when combined with the Healer feat & Healing kits, also pairs well with the MotM Hobgoblin rework. You can output a very useable amount of NON MAGICAL healing, which depending on setting can change the game exponentially. I REALLY like how well you can combine this with stuff like the crafter starting feat to output a TON of item effects or Buffing effects.
I had a char like this. It was a crosbowoman thattreated magic healing like some people treat actual meds and vaccines. "Did you know that magic increases the risk of illnesses" "You dont know what the 'healer' might be doing alongside the magic 'heal', he surely is planting some sort of tracking spell on you or suggestion magic" "Trust mw i know what i am doikg by using this knives i can remove the infected tissue to prevent this thing called bacteria from harming you" (usually bacteria is overlooked as why tf would you understand bacterias if it dies with magic all the same) And my favorite: "What will you do if your patient is alergic to magic? You will kill him!" NOONE was alergic to magic and all of that was bs i was making up in the fly it was GREAT.
We just started a new campaign when the new PH came. I went thief!!! We started at 3 and taking it all the way to 20. At level 5 now, I'm going to take a level of Wizard at some point but taking Thief to 19. Looking forward to shenanigans. The eventual two-turns round 1... Four uses of scrolls/magic items in a single round, dammers lol
Given the fact we know the hasbro CEO went on a ranting speach about how they're gonna and already are using A.I it wouldn't surprise me that the reason these classes keep getting these massive loop holes is because they're feeding features through A.I and then scrape homebrew.
Certainly a wild and fun idea - I'd love to play a shopping addicted Elf that never has gold but buys all the scrolls and wands (maybe he always wanted to be a mage but had not talent x) ))
@@williambradford6575 you can scribe the spells, but can’t cast them unfortunately. A spell has to be on your class spell list to be cast from a scroll.
My friend has a traveling magic shop in his campaigns that hus old lvl 20 artificer runs. He even gives us a membership card that glows when were near his shop.
If I ever do run a magic shop It will be like a normal store in New York, with everything behind magical lock and key to prevent sticky hands as much as possible
@@callumwhitmore1107 Wdym Level 17? With 1 Level in Warlock you can cast Eldritch Blast as an action. With 3 levels in Rogue you can cast Eldritch Blast as a Bonus Action using a scroll. Explain what I’m missing here
So economically speaking, value is technically subjective. It depends entirely on what the seller wants for it and how much the buyer is willing to spend. For example, i bought my house for 216k. It's a small home with an add on on an acre in the woods. Pretty cheap house, nothing crazy. However, it's the first house my wife and i have owned and we're raising our kids in it. I love livng in the woods with some land. It could be appraised at the 216k i paid, but i wouldn't want to sell it for any less than 400k because of the value it has to me personally. I also don't intend to sell it, i want to pass it on to my kids in a few decades. This easily applies to homebrew values in dnd. If scolls are as abundant as the air itself and you can make them easily and get them anywhere, then as a seller, you have to lower prices for the competiton. But if you have one scroll and magic is very rare, you could ask any price you want
I did say magic shops are rare on that poll but to be fair they are thematically rare but consistently there is at least 1 across all my games that last more than 3 sessions.
The thief will be awesome with wands and other items. However, I fear it is an easy ruling against using scrolls with Fast Hands! If scrolls were meant to be used with the magic action's "use a magic item that requires a magic action", then the rule would have said so. Instead, it clearly states that scroll are 'read' and then you CAST THE SPELL. Magic action let you (1)"cast a spell", (2) use an ability, or (3) use a magic item that requires a magic action. Fast Hands text clearly matches (3) and the scroll description clearly matches (1). That is rules as written. Thief is still awesome, but the DM can control the balance with item distribution. Artificers create items.... so Thief/artificer might be fun for all.
one thing to consider for scribing your own scrolls is if you have a DM willing to give you a headband of intellect you can dump int 90% of the time and then just attune to it during downtime to make your DC and attack bonus on your scrolls better and then just go back to being stupid while you adventure lol
Supreme Sneak makes literally no sense. You activate the feature when making the attack, but the condition of use is only checked at the END of your turn. (Not to mention it should be concealment, not cover, but that's a whole other thing) Picture this, you attack someone (removing invisibility), then run past them (provoking an opportunity attack) and into cover. Because you end your turn in cover, you were now retroactively invisible for the entire turn that just happened. And because you were now invisible the whole time, they now don't get the opportunity attack that they already made. Even worse, if that opportunity attack somehow allows you to reach cover (push, shove, or maybe it costs you enough movement to prevent you leaving cover), it causes a temporal paradox whereby the opportunity attack prevents its own existence.
If you've ever played Fallout or the Elder Scrolls games, when you pickpocket someone, not only can you take things from a character's inventory, but you can place items as well. It's called reverse pickpocketing. There's absolutely no reason you can't use the same skill to do the same thing. Plant an open bottle of Alchemist's fire in their pocket. Or a bomb. Or a live mimic... Something. Put something in their pocket that they don't want in there.
Xanathar's Guide has a "Buying a Magic Item" section under the downtime activities. This is what we use and yes, while there are magic shops, the chance of them having what you actually want is random based on a roll as is the price. It works out fairly well for our style of play.
One thing I've noticed is that Spell Scrolls don't explicitly indicate in their rules that you must use a Magic action. Nevertheless, they allow you to cast a spell, and casting a spell with a casting time of 1 action or longer requires you to use one or more Magic actions. I don't really know how these two rules interact in the context of Fast Hands. I see equally possible that Fast Hands does apply to Spell Scrolls or that it doesn't, according to the interpretation. Unless I'm missing something, of course. If it does allow it, however, another of its quirk is that it also allows to cast from an item spells that have a long casting time by dumping a Magic action as a Bonus Action each turn, while also stabbing things. :) Yet - for the time being - I'm still going to limit casting a "quickened" spell via Fast Hands only a [Dexterity modifier] times per Long Rest, and recovering 1 use each Short Rest. I'll leave other non-spell uses benefits from Fast Hands without expenditure. But I bet things will become clearer when the new Dungeon Master Guide will be out in the public.
It is already limited by the number of scrolls you (the DM) allow the party to acquire and / or craft, or limits on items such as wands (charges) or items themselves (usually times/day) Once we start going down the rule zero rabbithole and limiting / removing full class or subclass mechanics, the class or subclass becomes less and less playable.
@@Elemenopi23 yes, but that requires the DM to also juggling the rewards and downtime activities periods with the sole purpose of limiting the Thief access to an arsenal of machine-gun Wands of Magic Missiles and preventing them from outshining the Arcane Trickster (or even the Quicken Spell Sorcerer) in the spells department. Not all DMs have the energy or will to do that; I'm certainly not one of them. It's the 2014 Chaos Sorcerer all over again: a class efficacy depends on Mother-May-I mechanics instead of being able to stand on its own and define a clear perimeter to the player's agency.
@@ErikBurigo Not much juggling involved. Dont let the thief say they want to spend 60 days as a shut in making a phone book of scrolls of the same one cantrip. As far as wands are concerned, if they have one wand it has limited charges per day. If their DM gave them a bag of wands thats usually balanced by everyone else also having monte haul levels of access to magic items - aka a high magic campaign. A class closer to the bottom than to the top got some buffs to bring them up to some semnlance of above mediocrity, and people are going to rule zero it into the ground. 🤷
@@Elemenopi23in my opinion, money is not a good tool in class or spell design, as it makes the efficacy of that class or spell dependent upon the specific type of campaign. "Don't let the Thief ..." is already a mother-may-I dynamic that I want to avoid. That's just enough juggling for me: I don't want to be concerned about that. I want the Thief player to be in charge of their own expenses and downtime activities. I don't want the Thief player to outshine an Arcane Trickster or even a full caster as a spell slinger. Because then what's the point of playing an Arcane Trickster? 🤷🏼♂️
@@ErikBurigo Rule zero nerfs on the thief itself is unnecessary to prevent them from outshining anyone. The reason it got that buff it because that subclass was a bottom tier low pick. Keeping it there shouldn't be the mission, and seeing them be effective now should not be a reason for distress. Bonus action procing magic on an item or scroll on cantrip and level 1 spells, but having to make a spell check to even get off a level 2+ spell, doesn't outshine arcane trickster or a full caster even in a campaign where the DM allows alot of magic items (aka avoiding the mother may I mechanic), because the caster and arcane trickster ALSO have access to those items and an atmosphere where they dictate the pace or item acquisition. The caster has access to spells far higher level then the thief can proc in such a fashion, and the arcane trickster is distinguished by feature differences - is a different subclass - different =/= outshined.
I don't think it counts as an item after its tattooed but itd be cool if the artificer could cover the thief in spellwrought tattoos to give then bonus action spells
Depending on DM Fiat with magic items, this is definitely worse than anything a 2 fighter / x caster could do in 2014. I think WotC thought “magic items in 5e have always been gravy on top”…then made an update now that means every caster is going to be fighting with their DM to get spell scrolls to get around the one spell slot per turn casting limitation. I already see people hoarding spell scrolls of Shield, Misty Step, Counterspell, etc. so they keep their Action free to cast whatever they want.
This video convinded me about the potential of this subclass. That being said, I think it is sad that what seems to be the "default" subclass of the rogue (assassin might claim this title) is only good if you optimize the game at least a little bit. Baseline subclasses should be noob friendly. A part of me is still sad that WotC didn't just use the BG3 thief subclass. For those who don't know, in BG3, Thieves don't get the "pickpocketing or unlocking on a bonus action" non-sense. Instead they get an additionnal bonus action every turn. The build possibilities are endless, and it makes dual wielding so much more appealing.
I think it's weird that the thief subclass is so focused on magic scrolls and stuff when we have the arcane trickster. That being said, am I crazy for thinking I'd rather just have scrolls be loot dropped from enemies or found in dungeons than just have them purchasable through shops?
Okay, for real Thief Rogue is sometimes how I recommend people play Artificer because it does most of what an Artificer does better. It has more skills, it can bonus action use its tools and items, all it ever really needed was tool proficiencies and money. Artificer is only really better when money is a big constraint. That's not how I run my games - adventuring should always be the most profitable venture your players undertake. This helps downtime activities not overtake your game of DnD.
I think the funniest thing about this Thief is how much it wrecks Gritty Realism games. I didn't realize that until someone reminded me those games exist.
Link to the Kobold Plushie: my-store-c2baed.creator-spring.com/listing/buy-kobold?product=2444&variation=106876
Sorcerer 1 Theif X: Bonus action to spell rage, Cast true strike. Turn 2 Bonus action True strike (scroll doesnt matter if made or bought), Action READY true strike.
You get all but free advantage and your DPR is high
@@RazdasoldierNew true strike isn't a spell attack, is a weapon attack made with your spellcasting ability
@@snitram2332 And? That makes it work better with spell bought scrolls and it still works with sorcerer's Innate sorcery
In a gritty game the spell catnap becomes kinda good, make some for your friendly battlemaster fighter and watch them do anything to protect you.
It's funny that this thief works mechanically in a way many people think wizards work, getting wildly stronger the more gold and scrolls you find.
fun fact in italian we don't have an exact translation for rogue so we call all dnd rogues thieves, and the thief subclass is called something like the scoundrel but I like to call it the thief thief
"Thief Squared." ;)
More languages don't have this weirdly. I always found it strange that english is the only one I know that has the word rogue
@@Chatterscompany I would think in most applications of the word, "scoundrel" fits. Rogues do what they do is some sort of underhanded way. Scoundrels are scoundrels because they're underhanded. The only rogue archetype where scoundrel wouldn't necessarily fit is the investigator/detective, depending on if said archetype manages to keep their hands clean or not.
So, they potentially made the Thief a better Arcane Trickster than the Arcane Trickster? Neat.
That’s been my evaluation too since they released the 2024 changes. AT was the best rogue subclass simply because of what spell casting offers. However the sacrificing a sneak attack die to trip someone makes versatile trickster mostly useless, the expanded spell list makes spell thief unnecessary other than just a once a day cancel button on a spell. The expanded spell list is a fantastic buff for flavor and it heavily buffs the magical ambush ability. Really any subclass features after level 9 are seemingly unnecessary for AT. The thief with like 3 levels in wizard would absolutely be a better sneaky spell caster than the AT. If they wanted AT to feel more wizardly I think giving them a spell book like a wizard would be much better.
Jack Horner from Puss in boots is a Thief Rogue.
Have you seen how he swings Excalibur with the stone, and his rage about not having any magic?
He’s a Barbarian.
He didn't seem to proficient with it.
@@LocalMaple he can be both, rogue/barbarian is a great combo
A Rogue with High Str score. How else would such massive man swing a sword embedded to rock at three bears and knock them all out without high str?
@@BunMoony rogues have proficiency with longswords
Honestly this reminds me of “items users” in lots of RPGs. I really like the concept of them and I might play a thief for my next character because of this.
My first and only rogue was a thief and they had tavern brawler and would basically just throw random BS. My DM actually gave me a magic item that was a bag where I can grab a random item from it. It was fun.
I play a barbarian rogue with a full backpack... i really like the soul knife totem warrior, but thief is sounding pretty good. (rage advantage, expertise athletics, a minimum 10, and psionic knack) we just kind of accept that imma grab someone and bonus action dash away with them
That’s cool idea I was going to play giant barbarian with tavern brawler who did the same thing
Kinda the idea behind the thaumaturge from pf2e
Showering the martials in magic items is the time-old tradition to the martial caster gap. Because when you have so much spellcasting freely available for everyone it kind of stops mattering what class you are
seize the means of spellcasting
So we've got a rogue who specializes in stealing and using magic items to make up for whatever shortcomings you might have as a character.
So Big Jack Horner from The Last Wish.
Fun.
That's a sick concept build lol
A Thief with a Wizard dip is the Rogue I’m most excited to play. I think it’d be best with any elf to have shorter long rests, that means you can scribe a scroll while the party is resting any time you can get 12 hours of down time.
If the RAW hasn't changed in 2024, you can't work more than 8 hours
Elves get the benefit of a long rest after 4 hours of trancing, but that doesn't mean everything else that they could do during a long rest takes only 4 hours.
@@RokuroCarisu You rest while resting. Then you get a free 4 hours of scribing. That means all you need is 4 extra hours to finish a first level scroll, that’s 12 total hours.
Sure - elf / thief rogue / scribes wiz - make your own scrolls on a lower cd.
I also think thief mixed with artificer making your own items could be cool
@@ChickenSoupMusicadd the crafter feat to that
Anyone find it kind of funny hearing kobold talk about the logistics of the THIEF buying things. 😂
The best thieves know when it's best to go through proper channels and when it's best to go through your own! A locked-up thief is of no use, after all.
Just steal the money back later
Glad somebody on TH-cam making videos remembered Illusionist's Bracers exist. Those things are awesome!
For spell scroll price: I think that scrolls will more likely follow the spellcasting services price tag (which is also in chapter 6). Cantrip and 1st level spell price for services completely match the scroll.
It's funny how the ability to use spell scrolls as a BA (due to magic action use) makes this the best Rogue. I'll definetly play this if I get a rich campaign.
A Thief Rogue, with a single level multiclass in a caster class with True Strike, can cheaply craft a cantrip Scroll of True Strike (15 gold each); using the scroll as a bonus action and using its Action to Ready an Attack or to cast True Strike again on another turn, it can easily Double Dip on Sneak Attack. In 2014 there where tactics and multiclass to do this, but now for a Thief it is extremely easy and it can do this with both a melee or ranged weapon.
Oh shoot
The thief was a class I fell in love with in a high seas campaign. We ruled that many actions aboard the ship were object interactions, mostly this didnt matter, loading a cannon was an object interaction instead of an actual "reload" action (as per "loading" weapons). Everyone gets an object interaction for free so this let everyone do their own thing, while still doing "ship" things on their turn. This made crew members valuable because they made things more efficient, load a cannon with your object interaction and on the crew's initiative round they'll fire it, then reload it. You could fire a loaded cannon as a free action or a main action, but as you only get 1 of those each per turn (haste and such notwithstanding) it would mean if you didn't keep on top of your reloads, you'd have "off" turns, since ship repairs, bailing water, changing heading and more were also tied to the free action.
As you can imagine, having an extra object interaction meant my thief was able to make a much larger difference. I could reload two cannons instead of just one. Boat movement was handled like lair actions, where at the top of the round the boats would move in a path along their heading, being able to change the heading twice (alongside assistance from our druid) allowed us to be more maneuverable. I could raise and lower sails more often, I could make repairs twice as often (and I could use my action to "Help" our ship's carpenter, making the man doing the bulk of repairs even BETTER at his job).
Still, all the while I felt this was such a niche case because of how the rules are worded. I know *most* DMs were of the mind to allow thief rogues to do what the *new* thief is doing, most DMs ive encountered were like "you're a thief? yeah ok you can use your bonus action to use a magic item" because the thief's entire gimmick was that it was a rogue who could use magical things without needing to dip a caster or be an arcane trickster.
Now, of course, this just means the wizard is still the best class in the game. It just means that the BEST wizards are likely to start their career as thieves. Which makes me wonder just how meta we can get without dipping Sorcerer...
The ‘littlest optimizer’ plush is adorable.
I think it “stole” the show
Ba dum tsss
Something I think you might want to note (if you haven't already, it wasn't mentioned in the video) is how good the new Surprising Strike options are when combined with most spells or mundane equipment. DCs to break your ropes or manacles are a lot harder to achieve if you're poisoned!
This is smart. I'm going to keep that in mind. Thank you.
I would add that the Rogue Thief is the most fun for a creative-thinking player. The bonus action can be useful for sooooo many options, both mundane and magical.
Wandslinger Thief is real.
I would pump some breaks on the excitement over scrolls though. Making one takes considerable amount of downtime (which is scarce in most of campaigns) and 1000gp per party member is definitely not an early tier 1 quest. Lastly, let us not forget that to make a scroll you need special ink and paper which are available at towns at the DMs discretion. I don't know what group PackTactics is playing with but no DM I know would go like: 'Sure you can find and fund enough materials and spend a week, ignoring any and all urgency in the story to make few spell scrolls to break the balance of the encounters I prepared!'
From multiple other videos, I can confidently guess that kobold plays in high treasure games. Way more gold than average game, but nowhere to put it due to lack of magic shops. He gets like thousands of gp at tier 2, and has "unlimited gold" by tier 3.
Not sure about his downtime tho.
Think about this logically like what is common in tier 1? 200 gold for quest complete + ofc the loot? the little silver ring is maybe 20 gold, the little statue is 50 gold and so on. Skin the dead wolves, sell the skin to a leatherworker or whatever they're called. With tabletop freedom you can basically make money out of anything, it's a reward for creativity. Sometimes that doesn't work because you're playing curse of Strahd or some other brutal setting but for majority of games even with low magic items setting, getting money is very easy.
Also time sensitive quests: They absolutely exist but usually as soon as you finish a quest, you can have a few days of downtime. With you and the wizard having a single day of downtime, In 16 hours both of you create 4 1st lvl scrolls in total for only 100 gold and you get the long rest. That should be enough for an adventuring day.
You also have your slots from 1st lvl wizard dip, that's 2 slots, Arcane recover that's 1 and 4 scrolls so in total you have 7 resource slots. That's as much as like a 4th level caster. That's should be enough to complete the next quest.
@@arcturuslight_ You should have unlimited gold by tier 3 if you have a full caster. Also the DMG has guidelines for the amount of loot you should be getting.
WotC: I know, we should let the spell casters craft a 9th level spell scroll in 120 days (and can sell and make 50000gp profit) or just craft a 1st level spell scroll a day (and make 25gp profit per day), but someone proficient with smith tools has to take 150 days to craft plate armor (and make 750gp profit (5gp per day))
This just made me check Xanathar's crafting magic item (which sets crafting in work weeks (5 day)), and it takes 30 work weeks to craft plain plate armor, 25 work weeks for +2 armor and 10 work weeks to craft +1 armor. Makes sense that you can craft +2 plate armor faster than you can craft plain plate armor.
Thief with ANY Tools are awesome.
the huge brain idea of adding acual content to a self promo segment
Soon he’ll be optimizing the universe
It's optimal!
Thief Rogue/Bladesinger multiclass might be the gishiest gish in the game now. Consistently casting spells (not just blade cantrips) and making weapon attacks on the same turn. Sounds super fun.
I think one thing you need to consider when serial-casting scrolls is the limit of one free object interaction per turn, unless the DM lets you carry an entire stack of scrolls in one hand. Of course, attack action plus bonus scroll is always possible even with only one free interaction per turn.
Lurking for the next Worlds Without Number case study.
A script is done. I was planning on making the video next month.
THANK YOU! This is one of the first awesome interactions I noticed when first looking through the 2024 rules and I’ve been waiting for someone to cover it. Very excited to play a thief/wizard with these rules
The oddest thing is the best litmus for any sort of magic item is spell components. Clerics seem to have the most varied and most annotated costs, so if D&D had a base economy it would be Cleric spell components. You could say equipment tables, but the cost of most equipment, even full plate is durable (more than a one time use) and still relatively inexpensive compared to spell components.
"Thief Rogues are the best martial in the entire game."
"Why?"
"Spells."
this game really is just that shit...
One thing to mention is that booming blade or green flame blade scrolls are super important because they let you get two sneak attacks around by bonus action to use the scroll and using you main action to ready an attack after your turn ends. Previously it was pretty difficult to do this consistently without help from other party members. 26 avg damage a round at level 3 assuming both attacks hit and your dex mod is 3. The cantrips also scale for more damage as you mentioned..
Also, another advantage of Fast Hands is that it lets you don or doff a shield as a Bonus Action.
I don't really know if there is a build that can capitalize this, but I think it's nice little quirk.
Yeah, Mike from CCMC was talking about this. He got the idea from one of his patrons. The Brilliant Thief. Basically using fast hands to cast true strike from a scroll as a bonus action, then hold your action until the next turn to cast true strike normally to get two sneak attacks every round. You'd want to do this ranged with a shortbow for the vex property and because you've used your reaction that round and can't use uncanny dodge or shield, assuming you took the wizard dip. Expensive, but incredibly cool. And as Pack demonstrates, it gets better as you level up. Not only does true strike scale (and do radiant damage), but the capstone gives you FOUR sneak attacks in one turn. (At the cost of two cantrip scrolls) That's insane!
I've been exited about the thief rogue since the first time I saw it in the playtest. Back then it was seen through the lens of you cannot cast any spells other than a cantrip if you cast a bonus action spell. Seeing as that rule has changed, it has gone from great to incredible!
I think high elf will work decently well for thief rogue (provided getting a cantrip from your race allows to make it into a spell scroll), using bonus action fast hands to read a scroll of true strike, hold your action to cast true strike again on another turn and with the other thief features we should be able to manage positioning fairely well. 😂😊
You can make the scroll, but unfortunately can’t use the scroll. A spell has to be on your class spell list for you to cast it from a scroll, so a 1 level wizard dip would be a necessity.
In my experience, most GMs that run the gritty realism rules change all of the system’s features to match the longer timescale, not just rests (otherwise daily magic scroll scribing would be setting warping).
Artificer 10 or Scribes Wizard 10/Thief 3 is about to go crazy for higher level scroll stuff.
Great video Kobold. This looks like so much fun :)
You can also get Good berry and cure wounds spell scrolls and you're a support thief getting your allies up for a bonus action
i think a missed point here was that rogues using cantrip bonus action truestrike can get sneak attack with that attack, then hold your action to get sneak attack again as a reaction, this is a 15 good investment each round, but reliable damage is worth it
Weapon attack cantrips also are a cheap way to get double sneak attacks using bonus action then held attack action.
Double Casting is actually better than giving disadvantage. If the first one sticks, you can target a second creature!!!!
During the playtest, I played a thief rogue levels 3-20 (we leveled up each session), and we had fun magic items given throughout the adventure, including scrolls! I had a wand of magic missiles which made my damage decent, but the real fun was the scrolls. We were given a good amount, and once I hit level 13 the party ended up giving most of them to me. It was a super fun jack of all trades caster at that point. Great video!
They were amazing in 2014 for all the same reasons. I played this exact same way all the way to 20th level and even got my hands on a Staff of Power and Holy Avenger (dagger). During one of the final fights I was also able to load a ballista as a bonus action with fast hands too and fire it at the boss repeatedly, it was incredible.
I thought exactly the same: being able to bonus action cast a level spell with wands, scrolls and staffs is just insane. Other youtubers didn't get the idea that the Thief is a caster like any other spellcaster, specially if you have a Wizard in your party.
2:50 I love the rogue art 😂
Finally i can do 4 attacks multiattack at lvl3 with bracer of flying daggers, thanks wizards
Anyone else noticed two potential missing class from PHB 2024. All images of persons have text under them like " do something" or " doing somthing" and in book there are two images with text like "Inventor do something" "and "Investigator do something". Two missing classes, Inventor and investigator? Ranger put into book in place of this two classes, at last possible time?
Thief 9 / Illusionist 3 seems like it could be a fun build.
Thief for all that thieving goodness, illusionist for the spells, and bonus action minor illusion in particular, in case there's no cover nearby, you can just create your own.
Even if a DM moves to nerf this somewhat, limiting you to one Magic action per turn, and limiting the number of spell scrolls you can create per day through gold stinginess, this is still good. Main action sneak attack, then a magic item, your own leveled spell, item or scroll as well.
Bonus action fireball. 'Nuff said haha
I'd like to point out that the wands can be upcast. Level 7 Magic Missile as a bonus action with a 1-in-6 chance to not spend any of the 7 charges you blew from the wand is AMAZING. Have a dozen of those and you'll never run out of missiles to throw.
I think my perception of cost in DnD is not the common one. In my current campaign, our party recently hit LVL 9. Before that, our entire party income from all quests we did was less than 1000 total (we did get a handful of potions on top of that).
And here Kobold is basically suggesting spending 150+ GP on a single encounter.
Your perception is totally normal. Every GM runs a totally different economy between gold availability, prices, magic items and such.
Usually, level 1 nets you enough to buy a tool or two, or maybe upgrade a piece of armor if you multiclass. Levels 2 and 3 normally let you upgrade your armor and/or buy your tool kits, and maybe a spell component or two. Levels 4 and 5 are normally when you're getting some real money. If you've scrounged, you're probably approaching buying your best possible armor before magic items. You may also have enough money to buy fare on an inexpensive ship already heading somewhere. The party could collectively buy a small cottage on the outskirts of town or a run-down business, if they haven't gotten any kind of home base or keep to operate out of. By level 6-7, you have plate armor money and the party could pool resources for a decent keep or a building downtown. You can easily charter a ship to sail just your party somewhere and back. Hirelings or followers are viable and likely already present. 8-9th level you're in the realm of expensive spell components, buying a ship or other vehicle for the party to sail on, or trying to buy relevant magic items if you have nothing better to spend money on. Beyond that gets wild. You'll likely see 10,000+ gold per player per level, and it will only go up from there. It's viable to buy a company, or possibly pay for a small standing army. You can also hire out teams of level 5+ adventurers to tackle tasks appropriate to their level that you can't be bothered with.
That said, I've seen both games where by level 5, the party is lucky to have drinking money, and games where by 5th level, the party has thousands of gold to spend, or are decked out in magic items. It really varies by campaign, game tone, and table. It's part of why a session 0 is so important to set expectations and ask questions! If you want to play a resource-heavy character, it's important to ask the DM if your party will see a good amount of wealth and ample money-making opportunities, or if you'll be Cowboy Bebopping it.
I don't know why but, that thief kobold artwork looks very cute for some reason.
Ive made thief kobolds in the past, i absolutely love this ^^ just inproving on the idea
Did you mention True Strike Scrolls? Cast with Bonus Action, then ready your main action for another cast(just get the spell for this one). At level 5 with a short bow, that’s 10d6+8 and you can focus Int over Dex.
7:50 To your point, double casting is quite a bit better than casting with adv/dis because if you hit with the first you can do something else with the second: different action, spell, target, or just do the same thing and get double the damage. Can't do that with adv/dis.
One of my favourite moments in dnd was when the fighter/hexblade realized that Wand of Magic Missiles didn't require attunement, so he used Action Surge to dual wield two of them, spending all charges with his hexblade's curse, dealing 18d4+90 force damage with no save.
(he made sure to wait until after they spent their reaction because he knew they had the shield spell prepared)
You could also make an int or cha based thief rogue that focuses on making true strike scrolls. Use your bonus action to cast true strike and ready nother true strike to get 2 sneak attacks per turn
Lvl 9 feature is great for what I call hidden in obscurity X (rogue, ranger, barbarian? Etc) hiding inside something like a fog cloud (we'll need blind sense, but the skulker feat would have been a good choice anyway) and maybe a spell like blink will really make it hard to pin you down. (I'm starting to really like gestalt artificer {probably battle smith}/rogue thief, since artificer gets a lot of great spells, reduction for magic gear crafting, CON save proficiency, high AC and we benefit massively damagewise from rogue. I might still be missing some other reasons why this would be a great combo.)
Man the Thief rogue looks very fun an thematic now, but as an Arcane Trickster fan, I wish Versatile Trickster did something with Magic Items or Spell scrolls too, instead of the tripping feature they have :/
There are two requirements to making a spell scroll. 1. The ability to cast the spell you want on a scroll. (You are not required to be a leveled spellcaster.). 2. Proficiency with Arcana OR Calligraphers Tools.
Here is my idea about using scrolls for money. Magic shops don't have to exist if there is a guild for adventurers. Or just for mercenary work of any sort and class. Because scrolls are so useful it would make any who can use them drool. So naturally such guilds may have in house shops to restock certain niche items. So you could be dropping scrolls while looking for a quick job before the next big haul.
I'm a really big fan of the Thief Subclass. It's so good. I think they might end up being my new Roguelock subclass choice. Woof.
Thief rogue is also REALLY good when combined with the Healer feat & Healing kits, also pairs well with the MotM Hobgoblin rework. You can output a very useable amount of NON MAGICAL healing, which depending on setting can change the game exponentially. I REALLY like how well you can combine this with stuff like the crafter starting feat to output a TON of item effects or Buffing effects.
I had a char like this. It was a crosbowoman thattreated magic healing like some people treat actual meds and vaccines.
"Did you know that magic increases the risk of illnesses"
"You dont know what the 'healer' might be doing alongside the magic 'heal', he surely is planting some sort of tracking spell on you or suggestion magic"
"Trust mw i know what i am doikg by using this knives i can remove the infected tissue to prevent this thing called bacteria from harming you" (usually bacteria is overlooked as why tf would you understand bacterias if it dies with magic all the same)
And my favorite:
"What will you do if your patient is alergic to magic? You will kill him!" NOONE was alergic to magic and all of that was bs i was making up in the fly it was GREAT.
We just started a new campaign when the new PH came. I went thief!!! We started at 3 and taking it all the way to 20. At level 5 now, I'm going to take a level of Wizard at some point but taking Thief to 19. Looking forward to shenanigans. The eventual two-turns round 1... Four uses of scrolls/magic items in a single round, dammers lol
Holy 🐊, i want an elf thief now.
Given the fact we know the hasbro CEO went on a ranting speach about how they're gonna and already are using A.I it wouldn't surprise me that the reason these classes keep getting these massive loop holes is because they're feeding features through A.I and then scrape homebrew.
Certainly a wild and fun idea - I'd love to play a shopping addicted Elf that never has gold but buys all the scrolls and wands (maybe he always wanted to be a mage but had not talent x) ))
If you grab True Strike by way of Magic Initiate, you could be essentially a full caster and dedicate fully to Intelligence.
High Elf could even save you the feat and nab you True Strike as well :)
Taking Scribe as your background gives you proficiency with calligraphy and you can make scrolls. Technically don't need to be a Wizard at all
@@williambradford6575 you can scribe the spells, but can’t cast them unfortunately. A spell has to be on your class spell list to be cast from a scroll.
@williambradford6575 you need to be have the spell in your spell list or be a lvl 13 Thief to cast a spell
My friend has a traveling magic shop in his campaigns that hus old lvl 20 artificer runs. He even gives us a membership card that glows when were near his shop.
Important to note, the wand of fireballs requires attunement, so presumably the thief rogue would not be able to use it without multiclassing
If I ever do run a magic shop It will be like a normal store in New York, with everything behind magical lock and key to prevent sticky hands as much as possible
I'm going thief 10/illusionist 10, I love the idea of using supreme sneak and illusion spells to stay hidden for the entire combat
Wait. Double Eldritch Blast without needing a specific Magic item?
Oooo that tickles my brain. I need it.
@@James-kv3ll You would need to be level 13 and have a way to create those scrolls.
@@callumwhitmore1107 Wdym Level 17?
With 1 Level in Warlock you can cast Eldritch Blast as an action.
With 3 levels in Rogue you can cast Eldritch Blast as a Bonus Action using a scroll.
Explain what I’m missing here
So economically speaking, value is technically subjective. It depends entirely on what the seller wants for it and how much the buyer is willing to spend.
For example, i bought my house for 216k. It's a small home with an add on on an acre in the woods. Pretty cheap house, nothing crazy. However, it's the first house my wife and i have owned and we're raising our kids in it. I love livng in the woods with some land. It could be appraised at the 216k i paid, but i wouldn't want to sell it for any less than 400k because of the value it has to me personally. I also don't intend to sell it, i want to pass it on to my kids in a few decades.
This easily applies to homebrew values in dnd. If scolls are as abundant as the air itself and you can make them easily and get them anywhere, then as a seller, you have to lower prices for the competiton. But if you have one scroll and magic is very rare, you could ask any price you want
I did say magic shops are rare on that poll but to be fair they are thematically rare but consistently there is at least 1 across all my games that last more than 3 sessions.
The thief will be awesome with wands and other items. However, I fear it is an easy ruling against using scrolls with Fast Hands! If scrolls were meant to be used with the magic action's "use a magic item that requires a magic action", then the rule would have said so. Instead, it clearly states that scroll are 'read' and then you CAST THE SPELL. Magic action let you (1)"cast a spell", (2) use an ability, or (3) use a magic item that requires a magic action. Fast Hands text clearly matches (3) and the scroll description clearly matches (1). That is rules as written. Thief is still awesome, but the DM can control the balance with item distribution. Artificers create items.... so Thief/artificer might be fun for all.
one thing to consider for scribing your own scrolls is if you have a DM willing to give you a headband of intellect you can dump int 90% of the time and then just attune to it during downtime to make your DC and attack bonus on your scrolls better and then just go back to being stupid while you adventure lol
one of my players switched from inquisitive to thief, and we looked through it a was like this looks fantastic, but now i realize just how good
Supreme Sneak makes literally no sense.
You activate the feature when making the attack, but the condition of use is only checked at the END of your turn.
(Not to mention it should be concealment, not cover, but that's a whole other thing)
Picture this, you attack someone (removing invisibility), then run past them (provoking an opportunity attack) and into cover.
Because you end your turn in cover, you were now retroactively invisible for the entire turn that just happened.
And because you were now invisible the whole time, they now don't get the opportunity attack that they already made.
Even worse, if that opportunity attack somehow allows you to reach cover (push, shove, or maybe it costs you enough movement to prevent you leaving cover), it causes a temporal paradox whereby the opportunity attack prevents its own existence.
If you've ever played Fallout or the Elder Scrolls games, when you pickpocket someone, not only can you take things from a character's inventory, but you can place items as well. It's called reverse pickpocketing. There's absolutely no reason you can't use the same skill to do the same thing. Plant an open bottle of Alchemist's fire in their pocket. Or a bomb. Or a live mimic... Something. Put something in their pocket that they don't want in there.
Xanathar's Guide has a "Buying a Magic Item" section under the downtime activities. This is what we use and yes, while there are magic shops, the chance of them having what you actually want is random based on a roll as is the price. It works out fairly well for our style of play.
Thief subclass with the yugioh battle deck on his arm
That's only if they have enough scrolls lol.
@@PackTactics if everyone is spending all their free time making scrolls like you say they definitely will
This is so good. Having them have the scrolls stacked on top and shuffled and they pick the first one and go "fire bolt? Heh good enough"
One thing I've noticed is that Spell Scrolls don't explicitly indicate in their rules that you must use a Magic action.
Nevertheless, they allow you to cast a spell, and casting a spell with a casting time of 1 action or longer requires you to use one or more Magic actions.
I don't really know how these two rules interact in the context of Fast Hands.
I see equally possible that Fast Hands does apply to Spell Scrolls or that it doesn't, according to the interpretation. Unless I'm missing something, of course.
If it does allow it, however, another of its quirk is that it also allows to cast from an item spells that have a long casting time by dumping a Magic action as a Bonus Action each turn, while also stabbing things. :)
Yet - for the time being - I'm still going to limit casting a "quickened" spell via Fast Hands only a [Dexterity modifier] times per Long Rest, and recovering 1 use each Short Rest. I'll leave other non-spell uses benefits from Fast Hands without expenditure.
But I bet things will become clearer when the new Dungeon Master Guide will be out in the public.
It is already limited by the number of scrolls you (the DM) allow the party to acquire and / or craft, or limits on items such as wands (charges) or items themselves (usually times/day) Once we start going down the rule zero rabbithole and limiting / removing full class or subclass mechanics, the class or subclass becomes less and less playable.
@@Elemenopi23 yes, but that requires the DM to also juggling the rewards and downtime activities periods with the sole purpose of limiting the Thief access to an arsenal of machine-gun Wands of Magic Missiles and preventing them from outshining the Arcane Trickster (or even the Quicken Spell Sorcerer) in the spells department. Not all DMs have the energy or will to do that; I'm certainly not one of them.
It's the 2014 Chaos Sorcerer all over again: a class efficacy depends on Mother-May-I mechanics instead of being able to stand on its own and define a clear perimeter to the player's agency.
@@ErikBurigo Not much juggling involved. Dont let the thief say they want to spend 60 days as a shut in making a phone book of scrolls of the same one cantrip. As far as wands are concerned, if they have one wand it has limited charges per day. If their DM gave them a bag of wands thats usually balanced by everyone else also having monte haul levels of access to magic items - aka a high magic campaign. A class closer to the bottom than to the top got some buffs to bring them up to some semnlance of above mediocrity, and people are going to rule zero it into the ground. 🤷
@@Elemenopi23in my opinion, money is not a good tool in class or spell design, as it makes the efficacy of that class or spell dependent upon the specific type of campaign.
"Don't let the Thief ..." is already a mother-may-I dynamic that I want to avoid. That's just enough juggling for me: I don't want to be concerned about that. I want the Thief player to be in charge of their own expenses and downtime activities.
I don't want the Thief player to outshine an Arcane Trickster or even a full caster as a spell slinger. Because then what's the point of playing an Arcane Trickster? 🤷🏼♂️
@@ErikBurigo Rule zero nerfs on the thief itself is unnecessary to prevent them from outshining anyone. The reason it got that buff it because that subclass was a bottom tier low pick. Keeping it there shouldn't be the mission, and seeing them be effective now should not be a reason for distress. Bonus action procing magic on an item or scroll on cantrip and level 1 spells, but having to make a spell check to even get off a level 2+ spell, doesn't outshine arcane trickster or a full caster even in a campaign where the DM allows alot of magic items (aka avoiding the mother may I mechanic), because the caster and arcane trickster ALSO have access to those items and an atmosphere where they dictate the pace or item acquisition. The caster has access to spells far higher level then the thief can proc in such a fashion, and the arcane trickster is distinguished by feature differences - is a different subclass - different =/= outshined.
1:56 the higher level spells may have some leeway in their prices between different spells of the same level, due to material cost as well
Thief’s Reflex can be even better if you get the new Alert feat, improving your chances of _both_ turns coming before at least some of your opponents.
People are hating on the rogue, yet now im more excited to play one than ever. Maybe im the weird one
I don't think it counts as an item after its tattooed but itd be cool if the artificer could cover the thief in spellwrought tattoos to give then bonus action spells
I couldn’t answer he pool because from personal experience it’s a 50/50 divide on whether it will have one.
Older editions used to have prices for magic items. Good to see they realized removing them was a mistake.
My party doesn't have a Thief Rogue, but I'm an Reborn with Arcana so I can pull off the quick scroll crafting.
Am I just fixating on the negative, or do the 2024 rules have way more OP/broken combos than the 2014 rules did?
Depending on DM Fiat with magic items, this is definitely worse than anything a 2 fighter / x caster could do in 2014.
I think WotC thought “magic items in 5e have always been gravy on top”…then made an update now that means every caster is going to be fighting with their DM to get spell scrolls to get around the one spell slot per turn casting limitation. I already see people hoarding spell scrolls of Shield, Misty Step, Counterspell, etc. so they keep their Action free to cast whatever they want.
Shouldn’t the thief be stealing spell scrolls not buying?
This video convinded me about the potential of this subclass. That being said, I think it is sad that what seems to be the "default" subclass of the rogue (assassin might claim this title) is only good if you optimize the game at least a little bit. Baseline subclasses should be noob friendly.
A part of me is still sad that WotC didn't just use the BG3 thief subclass. For those who don't know, in BG3, Thieves don't get the "pickpocketing or unlocking on a bonus action" non-sense. Instead they get an additionnal bonus action every turn. The build possibilities are endless, and it makes dual wielding so much more appealing.
I think it's weird that the thief subclass is so focused on magic scrolls and stuff when we have the arcane trickster.
That being said, am I crazy for thinking I'd rather just have scrolls be loot dropped from enemies or found in dungeons than just have them purchasable through shops?
Scrolls of truestrike are really cheap and they give you an extra attack
And an extra SNEAK attack even - so good! :)
Finaly we have hope in the Rogue!
Fire some builds on us, i wish to see an Roguelock...
What kind of games are you guys playing? We just made it to level 5 in my campaign, and I've only earned a few hundred gold in total so far. 0_o
I might just have to play this new edition after all!
Okay, for real Thief Rogue is sometimes how I recommend people play Artificer because it does most of what an Artificer does better. It has more skills, it can bonus action use its tools and items, all it ever really needed was tool proficiencies and money.
Artificer is only really better when money is a big constraint. That's not how I run my games - adventuring should always be the most profitable venture your players undertake. This helps downtime activities not overtake your game of DnD.
Also the level 17 feature let's you make 4 sneaks in round 1 if you have haste
If making the thumbnail look like Sly Cooper is intended that's an amazing ref!