The card quality is insane! I left my foils our for 2 weeks now and no curl. The image quality is sharp and the cardstock is better than FaB or magic. I'm all in on sorcery. Not collecting, but just for game play and the art. Even if it dies I will love these cards.
That is good to hear, I think Sorcery at least in the TCG world is running at a premium price compared to others, but that may just be the initial wave + hype.
@@SolarGamesllc I've heard distribution price is at about 78 a box, so barring beta selling out I expect price will settle into the 110-120 a box range which is closer to the sealed price for other games.
First, just want to say I have been playing TCGs for years and this is by far the best one i have ever played. I just bought a precon box and after playing a few games ended up spending more than I have the past 3 years combined on MTG. This is the first time I have really felt something could dethrone MTG. The secret rares you are refering to are curios and are not unique playabe cards. They are either alterations of normal cards, or nonplayable collectable cards like sketches of art, playtest designs etc. Threshold is an amazing system imho. I think it is different but still very intuitive, and it makes the design space so interesting. That is one thing that sold me on the game. You can make certain cards only really playabe in mono element decks while other with low threshold are good for multi-element decks. The tracking of mana spent and board clutter is definitely an issue. I do have a physical Mana/Threshold tracker, but I think eventually there will be a consensus on how to show it on board. One idea I had was simply playing the site on the line of the grid and pulling it back slightly so it crosses the line or even just a corner crosses over to indicate spent. I think a convention will be found but otherwise I think just like with mtg certain board states will require dice etc to track. I definitely don't understand the complexity being an issue. To me the more strategic layers, the better the game, because it allows for skill to shine over the random elements. The game has depth, but I was able to teach multiple people who are new to TCGs besides having played a game or two of MTG within an hour. So it isn't a real barrier to entry simply a high skill ceiling, which again is a good thing. Also, you complain about grid complexity, and then say lacking instant speed interactions is an issue? I would like them, and I think they will come eventually (they did have it in playtest), but they decided to let people get used to the grid first before worrying about that.There is a "stack" in terms of what they call timeline elements. Keywords are an issue? Every TCG has keywords. MTG being the worst "offender". The keywords are all listed in the back of the rulebook provided in the intro product, and most are very intuitive to a tcg veteran.
The super rare cards are “Curio” cards and they are not generally playable cards. Curio cards are not meant for gameplay, it is for collectors and will never be excluding players from getting specific cards. Interesting hearing about the game from someone from “the outside” and there are issues as with all games. The foil cards are actually individually masked and the foiling is not one simple layer, unless you have the cards in hand, it is difficult to see.
I appreciate the perspective, yeah, like I stated, I didn't want to talk about Sorcery with 0 knowledge, but not having access to cards, play group, I can only go off what I can find info on the net. Watching other players play the game. I hope I did the game justice at least not misrepresenting anything major.
Love tour channel and this is a fair review IMO and I appreciate the fresh perspective. Just make sure you do another review after getting your hands on some cards and playing a number of games. It will be interesting to compare the two reviews!
Hi Mark, 248 foil copies per Unique 466 foil copies per Elite 780 foil copies per Exceptional 1164 foil copies per ordinary/basic site. 29000 boxes. 403 cards that's why it seems so common. Less than 250 global foil sets possible. Foil Philosopher's stone just sold for US10k. Another one sold for 8.1k on Ebay a few days ago. The hidden rarity curios arent used for game play. They show historical iterations of the game and other alt arts. look to be about 10 different curio cards
Good to know re both those numbers. Curios being in the set is part of what made cracking packs so much fun. Every card in the pack mattered. Made it feel like opening Vintage MTG
@@themagictraindriverIt is a best estimate, some Curios will not get caught since they are very subtle and some won’t be shown on social media. However, I have been following the openings and groups from the beginning, so I think it is a fair estimate.
On the casting cost of cards, it's actually really unique. there are cards that are 1 mana, but require 3 threshold. It means the card is "cheap" to cast, but can't be easily splashed in any deck. Think Swords to Plowshares that somehow required only 1 mana, but couldn't be cast unless you had 3 plains in play. you don't have to tap them (well, maybe 1 of them), but it makes Swords something that not every deck can just throw in because the cost is cheap. It's actually genius, to me, though i've not really played too many TCG's tp see how different this is from other games.
So comical to me to hear a Magic player say that any other TCG is “too complicated” or “has too many keywords” or that “deck building is difficult and not knowing what could be in your opponents deck is problematic”. I’m bummed that I missed out on the sorcery Kickstarter for alpha but have some beta on preorder and am very excited to get it and play.
Don't you think that having to plan far ahead is part of the strategic intrigue of the game? It's like chess where you're opening is often going to work towards and define your possible endgame. In fact I've found in some of the games I've played that I end up having to chase down and corner the opposing avatar to deal the killing blow in a manner similar to a chess endgame which I actually enjoyed a fair bit. It also gave the opponent a chance to fight back and get me to death's door as well where they would have just died to my strong opening otherwise.
I agree this adds another element. There is nothing wrong with this at the casual level but once this game goes to a competitive level and the meta is established the way you place your sites becomes critical (winning vs losing) but the amount of decisions for a players is pretty massive.
@@SolarGamesllc Good decision making at a competitive level should be rewarded and bad decisions punished. That's the whole point a playing competitively. To test your skill and competitive ability against other strong players. You have it reversed if anything its a fell bad in a casual environment, but in a casual environment those mistakes will be recoverable.
None of the special uber rare pulls are legal in play. They are just collector items and showcase things like earlier versions of card designs, cancelled art, etc. No player is locked out because they can't obtain a curio.
Tokens (which is pretty common in a lot of games) can easily be used to mark a mana drained site. Not complicated. Seriously, the average game of commander is far more difficult to track.
Sorcery is so great. And pulled me a curio card (Free City). The foils are so awesome. Love the artwork. Going to start playing at my LGS when they start holding events.
Thanks for the video! I'm not really sure your concern about the rarity being an issue for new players getting scammed holds a lot of water. A newcomer to any TCG will need to be initiated on how rarities are shown. In MTG, for example, the colors of the set symbol mean nothing until a player is told what they mean. I think with foiling, sometimes the color of the Rare and Mythic can also be a bit hard to discern, especially in photos when something is being sold or traded online. Beyond that, MTG often now uses the Mythic and Rare color symbol for cards that aren't particularly rare or valuable (like box-toppers, high volume promos, variants that come in every pack like Transformer cards), which would be very confusing for someone told that the Mythic color represents high rarity. Once initiated, having the rarity spelled out in large letters in the middle of each card in Sorcery seems easier to discern than any of the others, IMO.
I totally hear you on that. There are also cases where even if a card is rare, it isn't actually better than potentially an uncommon. And some rares are really good. But those are potentially even missed by the game devs themselves and figured out at the meta level. But I think giving players some early indicators that a card is rare or not is still helpful and can prevent potential problems. I will say the balance of allowing say 2 elites in a deck is very interesting as it also makes it so that players don't have to open a lot of boxes to build a deck (they can only run 2 anyways).
@@SolarGamesllc Yes, I think for the Beta of Sorcery it would be nice if the rules book spelled out in the same sentence in really clear language how the four terms (Ordinary, Exceptional, Elite, and Unique) equate to both deckbuilding restrictions and rarity. Once they've done that, I think it's a very simple and very intuitive system they've come up with. I think Mythic used to mean something in MTG, back when one could say "Mythic means a card that has the potential to show up in 1 in 7 packs of a 36 pack booster box." And that's it. Now it really doesn't mean anything. 😆
Thanks for the interesting take. Please pick up a few foils and do a follow up video after seeing the cards in person. Would be interesting to hear if your perspective changes at all. Thank you
Interesting video, I really enjoyed hearing from a different perspective. I would definitely recommend gaining some personal experience by playing this and more than once. I use to love playing MTG for the longest time so it's easy to understand why a deviation from that familiar format and mechanics would be off putting. Sorcery is a much more casual experience and I don't think it's too complicated at all. The removal of player to player stack and in-turn countering makes it much more basic than magic. I believe eliminates some confusing interaction that is associated to resolving a stack, I know I always had issues with how some more complicated targeting working when resolving MTG stacks so I'm glad that it's not present here. I've played Sorcery and find it incredibly fun, even if I don't interact on a players turn I'm still interacting with the player on a personal level which is the main reason I think you want to play a game. There is a free print to play link on the Sorcery website, so it cost nothing to play. Most of the interactions you weren't found of are for first time players and not someone who will play the game more than once. It's strange to think someone would only play MTG once and then give up on it, so I would hope the same holds true to Sorcery. I retrospect I think FAB is by far more complicated than either Sorcery or MTG. Some info on foil pull rates, which at a large sample rate is 1 in 9 packs, with unique foils only having 250 copies of each. This very closely resembles serialized card rarity. I have my cold foils and I understand that cold foiling work best on metallic colors, which is easier to do on armors or metal depictions. Sorcery doesn't care about this. The foiling for Sorcery is amazing and you really should see it because it's so much better than generic rainbow foiling. I would say that there is some clumping of foils in a box which will be an issue for stores if not resolved in Beta release. I agree though that you never want to spend money on any game until the market for that product is more stable.
The foils are considered rare because of the size of the set and number of boxes printed. Based on the estimated pull rates for foils, foil uniques should have a population of 248 for alpha, and 496 for elites and so on. This means that foils for alpha are in in comparable numbers to the serialized cards of MtG.
Great vid, thanks for deep dive and well thought out talking points here! I hole heartedly agree with you on the concerns around tracking during the game. That was the #1 thing that stuck out to me when I watched my first couple play throughs. It's a simple solve with some dice and accessories but it's a shame the game itself doesn't do a better job of communicating that information on its own. With that said, I haven't played the game yet (waiting on a pre-order to come in this fall) so I'll hold my full judgement until I have cards in hand and games on the table. Really looking forward to seeing how the game actually feels when played and listening to more of your thoughts as it rolls into full release. Cheers!
Your main criticism is that it's not like Magic. But people that are interested in Sorcery appreciate that is does things different. Also Magic is waaay more complex to learn for new players. Hundreds of keywords, the stack, dozens of phases and steps, priority. I wanna see how you explain basic 'kill' conditions to a new magic player. Why does 'protection' not work against board wipes, and sometimes is does. Why does an 'indestructible' creature die from minus counters? And then we add 'hexproof' 'phasing' and 'exile' effects into the mix. 🤯🤯🤯
Perfect, that is helpful, I didn't see anyone open them so I didn't understand how they would affect the game. Does that mean these cards might be playable in later formats?
@@SolarGamesllc I think we know of 6 opened currently. I doubt they have any plans to allow them to be playable. One example is a curio with pictures of 12 other cards. I might have the number incorrect.
Neat video. While I'm not as down on the game as you from the gameplay perspective (A lot of things actually appeal to me, possibly because I am a boardgamer but also a huge Doomtown Reloaded fan :-) I do get where you are coming from. I feel like the grid and mana systems are a little fiddly out the box, requiring the player to make some personal QoL decisions. In my cases, I use aember tokens from Keyforge to track how much mana I have spent. In terms of card stacking I don't really have a good solution yet, but it's a problem with many games. I will say the foils are actually great quality and for me do feel like they match Grand Archive in this regard. In general it depends on the card, with some having much more spetacular foil jobs than others. In particular, the foil version of the common Disenchant card is beautiful.
That's a deep-dive video, thanks! A few things to add that I didn't yet see in other comments: It heavily appeals to the art side, there are also artist proofs (limited to 25 each) which have square corners and white back unless the artists illustrate/sketch something on them. There's a facebook/discorrd group that sells many of them and they go for hundreds to thousands of dollars. So there's that, people collecting the art. About game play: I also wish there was some better explanation on the card. However, the design was focused on the art, at least that is what the kickstarter was advertising for and Erik also mentioned that more than once. Perhaps the rules and effects are too much, time will tell when more people can try it with Beta in a few months.
How about using different colored poker chips? That whenever you initiate an attack on an adjacent place on the grid. A player puts a chip on the grid boarders, until the combat results have been determined between those cards.
Yes we can always use more visual aids but this still adds more complexity to the board and game state. And I wonder if we should have thought that better through.
Right, this was mentioned in the video. Textured boarder, not textured art though. So without having the cards in hand, I assume this is similar to etched foils of Strixhaven or for DMU, slight raised boarders around the text and texturized letterings.
I’m pretty sure the foils for sorcery are cold-foiled? Multiple of my foils have areas that are foiled and areas that are foiled, the text is raised on foils, with the text itself coated in a silver material. Also, I really don’t understand why you think there are any playable cards that can let be gotten in a regular print in the secret rare slot? There isn’t!
Yes, the rarest cards are overpriced. But you can only have one of those cards in your deck anyway. So you can't rely on that card to drive your deck. So, if you want to build a specific deck, you can do it without the max rarity cards, and it will function just fine.
I normally agree with you content, however i completely disagree with your opinion on sorcery. I would say pick up a starter deck and give the game play a try to see if it works. Just watching game play videos didn't depict the major strategy needed to adapt to an ever changing game like sorcery. But i respect your opinion and insights. Keep up the good content!
I hate the arguement. "That X is confusing or negative if youre used to playing magic". That's BS. It's a different game. No one says a boardgame sucks, because I played this other boardgame that did it this way.
So i know I was going to get this comment/feedback. Like I stated in the video, my reasons for why this is bad are: 1. Tracking issue. Commander in MTG has this problem too, you don't want too many things to track for players, that is not good game design. I can reference Shadow Era as a paper game here, that is why it failed, too much tracking 2. Extra confusion leads to potential cheating, Are you counting your opponent's mana spends across multiple actions of their turn + banter + potential take backs? Having a tap system or a system where all mana is treated equally is much better to visually know the board state. 3. I don't think it is fair to say: "No one says a boardgame sucks, because I played this other boardgame that did it this way" That is not what I'm saying, I"m saying from a play perspective, having seen how other games might solve this exact problem, that it can cause issues where non needed to be present. 4. So are you asking another player to track both mana and thresholds to ensure you can cast the spells you cast? And keep that updated as you potentially blow up lands that destroy those thresholds/Mana? I know it is not optimal, but a one time payment system (tapping lands, putting cards down) is much better to track in terms for both players.
People do say that when comparing products. When a new product comes out, it will be judged by the dominant products in the same market. Whether players like it or not, every new card game is going to be judged against Magic. Board games get compared all the time against games that are already out that are similar. Video games get compared all the time against other ones. If you are going to change a common convention of play, it better be for a good reason and not just to be different. There's a reason why the button configuration for games are pretty similar from game to game that are in the same genre/style. Players expect it.
If you don’t believe me on this one. Give it a few months you will see what I mean. The game has a lot of decisions to make, and those decisions at very high level will cause a lot of complicated play patterns. This is wonderful for casual playing, but at competitive level it will feel more like chess because even casting your creature into the wrong box will matter for the rest of the game.
Calling important core elements of gameplay like the grid of unnecessary is ridiculous. It affects so much of the game calling it unnecessary is basically you think it should be a different game. This review is all over the place. I do agree it’s just a board game with cards for pieces and the randomized aspect people love or hate. It will not end up competing in the tcg market.
Ok first point i wanna make, pretty cool vid so far btw is that, foils in mtg may be rare but in sorcery theyre waay more special. Not only are they done imo way more lovely, textured letters, great foiling and stuff but they also have a backside with the full glorious art which sometimes is even more cool then the awesome foil already is and hides eastereggs. Also since the set is like 403 cards in not even 30k boxes, every one of em is kinda rare af. Only a hand full of peops can make it to the full set. Besides that, in magic imo foils get sooo much devalued by the collectorsboosters. Even the draft and set boxes may only habe a few they got dumped in the c boosters. So yeah, just for the foil thing here, gonna enjoy the rest of vid now (:
Also i really lile the rule book. Its like with every real game you buy, just to have it i imagine is very useful. Just for that. For FaB f.e. i still wish that to have for certain situations, since im more casual without lgs or judge near. With magic you dont really need that since you have arena and the intro but still to have one would alse be neat for that imo. 🖐
And kinda 2nd or 3rd point. I go with the point that having more key words makes the game more difficult to learn. But there are not even close that many that magic has or even fab after these few years has. I think every element has maybe 1 or 2 and there are only 4 different elements. ^^ Maybe im wrong on this. Also since everybody or at least every place thats offering the game has a rule book this should be waay easier to get into the head then with most other games. Soo im pretty hyped to learn them just by the fact theyre not explained on the cards actually, like it more non card games 🤟🏼
All valid criticisms except for the curio thing since they're not 'playable'. All of this is by design and a big reason why this game isn't competitive, similar to Metazoo's 4th wall gameplay. The stack in a casual setting is a feels bad mechanic. It's by far the best part of Magic but in a game which is basically a roleplaying board game, you don't want to get into a constant battle to actually land an attack or spell.
"Stacking" in magic feels like an unnecessary complication ;) As well as all the different kinds of phases, spells, creatures, card types and instant magic during your opponents turn etc...When you are used to it, it might be childs play. But take a step back and think about it. I would argue MTG is as difficult to learn for a newcomer than Sorcery. Even with explanation on cards. Out of 10 I would rate MTG difficulty as an 8 and Sorcery as an 8.5. Not that much different. I do agree strongly the game is a pain to TRACK things like mana left, having multiple cards on the board etc... I do think though when your are USED to Sorcery's terms in the end, the game is way simpler than MTG's complex turn and stack structure were even pros and judges sometimes get confused.
I think what you are saying about the sorcery foils is incorrect. They are made with a foil mask and only parts of the image are highlighted by the foiling. It is a very different process from MTG foiling I also think what what you are saying about the secret rarity is incorrect. The secret rares in sorcery (the curios) are all either alt arts of normal cards, or a few that are completely unplayable and not actually game cards.
It’s hard for me to jive with the complicated remarks when you say that the stack system should be present still. When teaching TCGs to new payers, the stack system is by far the most convoluted mechanic in a game you could have. I mean the concept of priority alone could take up the entirety of sorcery’s rule book
Appreciate your opinion a lot. Old school Diablo 2 player here and the artwork of Sorcery indeed is eye catching but i think the gameplay is slow and boring and the game changing cards are ultra expensive by design its too much designed around FOMO.
Would be cool if I could get some ..but wait... another new card game bought out by speculators. It might be fun ? I'll wait 'til the collapse to pick some up to try with our group.
It wasn’t bought out by speculators, it was a Kickstarter, so only backers got product. The Beta edition will be out October 6th and can be ordered directly through your LGS. 😉
@@CardboardGuide Nope ...beta all bought up too...LGS didn't have much of a 'position' lol. Like I said ...I'll wait it out (like all the others before it) and buy at the dip ... hope I used all the terms correctly ....haha
Thanks for video. I respect Most of your comments but I suggest you at least play one game and get some cards before judging a game? I had lots of concerns about playability and I think a lot of your concerns are legitimate but to me this video feels a bit like commenting on food by looking at pictures of it. Hope you get to play the game, hold the cards and be pleasantly surprised. Peace.
Maybe, but I will let the player base decide. I'm playing GA and I'm having a lot of fun with it. without knowing what games you play, I'd say if you enjoy the complex interactions of MTG, you will like Sorcery. I have converted more than a few MTG players to also play Grand Archive.
Dude, threshold is not hard. Devotion in magic is very similar. Just say you have to meet the devotion requirements to cast spells, but the way you count devotion is by counting the threshold symbols man. The game is just about as complex as mtgx
I will say, it's definitely more complex and involves more strategy and more moving parts than MTG or other tcg's. That's going to be a turn-off for some people, and other people are going to love that. Definitely a lot more strategy. It's definitely not as simple as MTG or other tcg's. It does move a bit slower for that reason. I love the game and the art but that's definitely a concern as far as how many people get into it. Also it's not really fair to say it's being called the "Magic killer". I'm in the sorcery discord and I have heard a person here or there say that and it makes me cringe.. the vast majority of people do not make that claim. I know the company and the team themselves who made the game do not ever make that claim and actually discourage people from saying that if they hear it, because they know it's simply not true. I certainly wouldn't say that. And I'm over MTG! Lol... It's its own thing. The few people that might say that are just saying it out of anger at MTG and hype.
Way off on foils, in rarity and looks.... that was kind of brutal to listen to, certain aspects of the cards in sorcery are foil, just not plain foil all over, creator spent A LoT of work doing that for each card...check out some of Melissa Bensons' cards, amazing!!
So I feel confident I can play sorcery as well. It wasn't too difficult to learn, but I'm stating that the complexity of the game can be its ultimate drawback. It almost feels to me so much of the game was done for flavor, flavor, flavor that it lost simple gameplay aspects. I think missing some form of player interaction is a loss.
The card quality is insane! I left my foils our for 2 weeks now and no curl. The image quality is sharp and the cardstock is better than FaB or magic. I'm all in on sorcery. Not collecting, but just for game play and the art. Even if it dies I will love these cards.
That is good to hear, I think Sorcery at least in the TCG world is running at a premium price compared to others, but that may just be the initial wave + hype.
@@SolarGamesllc I've heard distribution price is at about 78 a box, so barring beta selling out I expect price will settle into the 110-120 a box range which is closer to the sealed price for other games.
I agree with this.
First, just want to say I have been playing TCGs for years and this is by far the best one i have ever played. I just bought a precon box and after playing a few games ended up spending more than I have the past 3 years combined on MTG. This is the first time I have really felt something could dethrone MTG.
The secret rares you are refering to are curios and are not unique playabe cards. They are either alterations of normal cards, or nonplayable collectable cards like sketches of art, playtest designs etc.
Threshold is an amazing system imho. I think it is different but still very intuitive, and it makes the design space so interesting. That is one thing that sold me on the game. You can make certain cards only really playabe in mono element decks while other with low threshold are good for multi-element decks.
The tracking of mana spent and board clutter is definitely an issue. I do have a physical Mana/Threshold tracker, but I think eventually there will be a consensus on how to show it on board. One idea I had was simply playing the site on the line of the grid and pulling it back slightly so it crosses the line or even just a corner crosses over to indicate spent. I think a convention will be found but otherwise I think just like with mtg certain board states will require dice etc to track.
I definitely don't understand the complexity being an issue. To me the more strategic layers, the better the game, because it allows for skill to shine over the random elements.
The game has depth, but I was able to teach multiple people who are new to TCGs besides having played a game or two of MTG within an hour. So it isn't a real barrier to entry simply a high skill ceiling, which again is a good thing.
Also, you complain about grid complexity, and then say lacking instant speed interactions is an issue? I would like them, and I think they will come eventually (they did have it in playtest), but they decided to let people get used to the grid first before worrying about that.There is a "stack" in terms of what they call timeline elements.
Keywords are an issue? Every TCG has keywords. MTG being the worst "offender". The keywords are all listed in the back of the rulebook provided in the intro product, and most are very intuitive to a tcg veteran.
The super rare cards are “Curio” cards and they are not generally playable cards.
Curio cards are not meant for gameplay, it is for collectors and will never be excluding players from getting specific cards.
Interesting hearing about the game from someone from “the outside” and there are issues as with all games.
The foil cards are actually individually masked and the foiling is not one simple layer, unless you have the cards in hand, it is difficult to see.
I appreciate the perspective, yeah, like I stated, I didn't want to talk about Sorcery with 0 knowledge, but not having access to cards, play group, I can only go off what I can find info on the net. Watching other players play the game. I hope I did the game justice at least not misrepresenting anything major.
Love tour channel and this is a fair review IMO and I appreciate the fresh perspective. Just make sure you do another review after getting your hands on some cards and playing a number of games. It will be interesting to compare the two reviews!
Hi Mark,
248 foil copies per Unique
466 foil copies per Elite
780 foil copies per Exceptional
1164 foil copies per ordinary/basic site.
29000 boxes. 403 cards that's why it seems so common. Less than 250 global foil sets possible.
Foil Philosopher's stone just sold for US10k. Another one sold for 8.1k on Ebay a few days ago.
The hidden rarity curios arent used for game play. They show historical iterations of the game and other alt arts. look to be about 10 different curio cards
There are 15 individual Curio cards, with under 10 copies of each.
Good to know re both those numbers. Curios being in the set is part of what made cracking packs so much fun. Every card in the pack mattered. Made it feel like opening Vintage MTG
@@themagictraindriverIt is a best estimate, some Curios will not get caught since they are very subtle and some won’t be shown on social media.
However, I have been following the openings and groups from the beginning, so I think it is a fair estimate.
Those are the pop reports on the foils?
@@SolarGamesllc Yes, they are.
On the casting cost of cards, it's actually really unique. there are cards that are 1 mana, but require 3 threshold. It means the card is "cheap" to cast, but can't be easily splashed in any deck. Think Swords to Plowshares that somehow required only 1 mana, but couldn't be cast unless you had 3 plains in play. you don't have to tap them (well, maybe 1 of them), but it makes Swords something that not every deck can just throw in because the cost is cheap. It's actually genius, to me, though i've not really played too many TCG's tp see how different this is from other games.
So comical to me to hear a Magic player say that any other TCG is “too complicated” or “has too many keywords” or that “deck building is difficult and not knowing what could be in your opponents deck is problematic”.
I’m bummed that I missed out on the sorcery Kickstarter for alpha but have some beta on preorder and am very excited to get it and play.
Don't you think that having to plan far ahead is part of the strategic intrigue of the game? It's like chess where you're opening is often going to work towards and define your possible endgame. In fact I've found in some of the games I've played that I end up having to chase down and corner the opposing avatar to deal the killing blow in a manner similar to a chess endgame which I actually enjoyed a fair bit. It also gave the opponent a chance to fight back and get me to death's door as well where they would have just died to my strong opening otherwise.
I agree this adds another element. There is nothing wrong with this at the casual level but once this game goes to a competitive level and the meta is established the way you place your sites becomes critical (winning vs losing) but the amount of decisions for a players is pretty massive.
@@SolarGamesllc Good decision making at a competitive level should be rewarded and bad decisions punished. That's the whole point a playing competitively. To test your skill and competitive ability against other strong players. You have it reversed if anything its a fell bad in a casual environment, but in a casual environment those mistakes will be recoverable.
I don’t understand why having a lot of decisions is bad? It’s not like the decisions are shallow, they are deeply impactful.
None of the special uber rare pulls are legal in play. They are just collector items and showcase things like earlier versions of card designs, cancelled art, etc. No player is locked out because they can't obtain a curio.
I'm done with magic, sorcery for the win
Tokens (which is pretty common in a lot of games) can easily be used to mark a mana drained site. Not complicated.
Seriously, the average game of commander is far more difficult to track.
Sorcery is so great. And pulled me a curio card (Free City). The foils are so awesome. Love the artwork. Going to start playing at my LGS when they start holding events.
Thanks for the video! I'm not really sure your concern about the rarity being an issue for new players getting scammed holds a lot of water. A newcomer to any TCG will need to be initiated on how rarities are shown. In MTG, for example, the colors of the set symbol mean nothing until a player is told what they mean. I think with foiling, sometimes the color of the Rare and Mythic can also be a bit hard to discern, especially in photos when something is being sold or traded online. Beyond that, MTG often now uses the Mythic and Rare color symbol for cards that aren't particularly rare or valuable (like box-toppers, high volume promos, variants that come in every pack like Transformer cards), which would be very confusing for someone told that the Mythic color represents high rarity. Once initiated, having the rarity spelled out in large letters in the middle of each card in Sorcery seems easier to discern than any of the others, IMO.
I totally hear you on that. There are also cases where even if a card is rare, it isn't actually better than potentially an uncommon. And some rares are really good. But those are potentially even missed by the game devs themselves and figured out at the meta level. But I think giving players some early indicators that a card is rare or not is still helpful and can prevent potential problems. I will say the balance of allowing say 2 elites in a deck is very interesting as it also makes it so that players don't have to open a lot of boxes to build a deck (they can only run 2 anyways).
@@SolarGamesllc Yes, I think for the Beta of Sorcery it would be nice if the rules book spelled out in the same sentence in really clear language how the four terms (Ordinary, Exceptional, Elite, and Unique) equate to both deckbuilding restrictions and rarity. Once they've done that, I think it's a very simple and very intuitive system they've come up with. I think Mythic used to mean something in MTG, back when one could say "Mythic means a card that has the potential to show up in 1 in 7 packs of a 36 pack booster box." And that's it. Now it really doesn't mean anything. 😆
Thanks for the interesting take. Please pick up a few foils and do a follow up video after seeing the cards in person. Would be interesting to hear if your perspective changes at all. Thank you
Interesting video, I really enjoyed hearing from a different perspective. I would definitely recommend gaining some personal experience by playing this and more than once. I use to love playing MTG for the longest time so it's easy to understand why a deviation from that familiar format and mechanics would be off putting. Sorcery is a much more casual experience and I don't think it's too complicated at all. The removal of player to player stack and in-turn countering makes it much more basic than magic. I believe eliminates some confusing interaction that is associated to resolving a stack, I know I always had issues with how some more complicated targeting working when resolving MTG stacks so I'm glad that it's not present here. I've played Sorcery and find it incredibly fun, even if I don't interact on a players turn I'm still interacting with the player on a personal level which is the main reason I think you want to play a game. There is a free print to play link on the Sorcery website, so it cost nothing to play. Most of the interactions you weren't found of are for first time players and not someone who will play the game more than once. It's strange to think someone would only play MTG once and then give up on it, so I would hope the same holds true to Sorcery. I retrospect I think FAB is by far more complicated than either Sorcery or MTG.
Some info on foil pull rates, which at a large sample rate is 1 in 9 packs, with unique foils only having 250 copies of each. This very closely resembles serialized card rarity. I have my cold foils and I understand that cold foiling work best on metallic colors, which is easier to do on armors or metal depictions. Sorcery doesn't care about this. The foiling for Sorcery is amazing and you really should see it because it's so much better than generic rainbow foiling. I would say that there is some clumping of foils in a box which will be an issue for stores if not resolved in Beta release. I agree though that you never want to spend money on any game until the market for that product is more stable.
Sorcery Alpha Box has 39 boosters…just mention because of the foil-ratio.
The foils are considered rare because of the size of the set and number of boxes printed. Based on the estimated pull rates for foils, foil uniques should have a population of 248 for alpha, and 496 for elites and so on. This means that foils for alpha are in in comparable numbers to the serialized cards of MtG.
The number of uniques and so on required is awesome for power balance. It’s like what mtg duels did. I love it.
I see the value of the power balance, and i think it is interesting in the perspective of not forcing people to buy a lot of boxes to open for cards.
Great vid, thanks for deep dive and well thought out talking points here!
I hole heartedly agree with you on the concerns around tracking during the game. That was the #1 thing that stuck out to me when I watched my first couple play throughs. It's a simple solve with some dice and accessories but it's a shame the game itself doesn't do a better job of communicating that information on its own.
With that said, I haven't played the game yet (waiting on a pre-order to come in this fall) so I'll hold my full judgement until I have cards in hand and games on the table. Really looking forward to seeing how the game actually feels when played and listening to more of your thoughts as it rolls into full release. Cheers!
hope to see an update of this review.
Your main criticism is that it's not like Magic. But people that are interested in Sorcery appreciate that is does things different. Also Magic is waaay more complex to learn for new players. Hundreds of keywords, the stack, dozens of phases and steps, priority. I wanna see how you explain basic 'kill' conditions to a new magic player. Why does 'protection' not work against board wipes, and sometimes is does. Why does an 'indestructible' creature die from minus counters? And then we add 'hexproof' 'phasing' and 'exile' effects into the mix. 🤯🤯🤯
Secred rares are not playable…they called curios and are early cards in development. They are collector items from the game history.
Perfect, that is helpful, I didn't see anyone open them so I didn't understand how they would affect the game. Does that mean these cards might be playable in later formats?
That’s odd
@@SolarGamesllc I think we know of 6 opened currently. I doubt they have any plans to allow them to be playable. One example is a curio with pictures of 12 other cards. I might have the number incorrect.
My curio is 100% playable. Free City alt art..
Neat video. While I'm not as down on the game as you from the gameplay perspective (A lot of things actually appeal to me, possibly because I am a boardgamer but also a huge Doomtown Reloaded fan :-) I do get where you are coming from. I feel like the grid and mana systems are a little fiddly out the box, requiring the player to make some personal QoL decisions. In my cases, I use aember tokens from Keyforge to track how much mana I have spent. In terms of card stacking I don't really have a good solution yet, but it's a problem with many games.
I will say the foils are actually great quality and for me do feel like they match Grand Archive in this regard. In general it depends on the card, with some having much more spetacular foil jobs than others. In particular, the foil version of the common Disenchant card is beautiful.
Appreciate the perspective.
That's a deep-dive video, thanks!
A few things to add that I didn't yet see in other comments: It heavily appeals to the art side, there are also artist proofs (limited to 25 each) which have square corners and white back unless the artists illustrate/sketch something on them. There's a facebook/discorrd group that sells many of them and they go for hundreds to thousands of dollars. So there's that, people collecting the art.
About game play: I also wish there was some better explanation on the card. However, the design was focused on the art, at least that is what the kickstarter was advertising for and Erik also mentioned that more than once. Perhaps the rules and effects are too much, time will tell when more people can try it with Beta in a few months.
How about using different colored poker chips? That whenever you initiate an attack on an adjacent place on the grid. A player puts a chip on the grid boarders, until the combat results have been determined between those cards.
Yes we can always use more visual aids but this still adds more complexity to the board and game state. And I wonder if we should have thought that better through.
The curios (secret rares) are either unplayable cards or alternate arts
Also sorcery has actually textered-foils with a special card background (pic)
Right, this was mentioned in the video. Textured boarder, not textured art though. So without having the cards in hand, I assume this is similar to etched foils of Strixhaven or for DMU, slight raised boarders around the text and texturized letterings.
I’m pretty sure the foils for sorcery are cold-foiled? Multiple of my foils have areas that are foiled and areas that are foiled, the text is raised on foils, with the text itself coated in a silver material.
Also, I really don’t understand why you think there are any playable cards that can let be gotten in a regular print in the secret rare slot? There isn’t!
Yes, the rarest cards are overpriced. But you can only have one of those cards in your deck anyway. So you can't rely on that card to drive your deck. So, if you want to build a specific deck, you can do it without the max rarity cards, and it will function just fine.
I normally agree with you content, however i completely disagree with your opinion on sorcery. I would say pick up a starter deck and give the game play a try to see if it works. Just watching game play videos didn't depict the major strategy needed to adapt to an ever changing game like sorcery. But i respect your opinion and insights. Keep up the good content!
the beta precons you can pre-order are an incredible deal
I hate the arguement. "That X is confusing or negative if youre used to playing magic". That's BS. It's a different game. No one says a boardgame sucks, because I played this other boardgame that did it this way.
So i know I was going to get this comment/feedback. Like I stated in the video, my reasons for why this is bad are:
1. Tracking issue. Commander in MTG has this problem too, you don't want too many things to track for players, that is not good game design. I can reference Shadow Era as a paper game here, that is why it failed, too much tracking
2. Extra confusion leads to potential cheating, Are you counting your opponent's mana spends across multiple actions of their turn + banter + potential take backs? Having a tap system or a system where all mana is treated equally is much better to visually know the board state.
3. I don't think it is fair to say: "No one says a boardgame sucks, because I played this other boardgame that did it this way" That is not what I'm saying, I"m saying from a play perspective, having seen how other games might solve this exact problem, that it can cause issues where non needed to be present.
4. So are you asking another player to track both mana and thresholds to ensure you can cast the spells you cast? And keep that updated as you potentially blow up lands that destroy those thresholds/Mana? I know it is not optimal, but a one time payment system (tapping lands, putting cards down) is much better to track in terms for both players.
People do say that when comparing products. When a new product comes out, it will be judged by the dominant products in the same market. Whether players like it or not, every new card game is going to be judged against Magic. Board games get compared all the time against games that are already out that are similar. Video games get compared all the time against other ones. If you are going to change a common convention of play, it better be for a good reason and not just to be different. There's a reason why the button configuration for games are pretty similar from game to game that are in the same genre/style. Players expect it.
Never heard someone say Sorcery gameplay was hard lol.
If you don’t believe me on this one. Give it a few months you will see what I mean. The game has a lot of decisions to make, and those decisions at very high level will cause a lot of complicated play patterns. This is wonderful for casual playing, but at competitive level it will feel more like chess because even casting your creature into the wrong box will matter for the rest of the game.
@@SolarGamesllcI think this is a plus. Competitive gameplay should be tough and the champions should be special - kind of like chess masters.
It’s supposed to be a tabletop casual game
Calling important core elements of gameplay like the grid of unnecessary is ridiculous. It affects so much of the game calling it unnecessary is basically you think it should be a different game. This review is all over the place.
I do agree it’s just a board game with cards for pieces and the randomized aspect people love or hate. It will not end up competing in the tcg market.
Ok first point i wanna make, pretty cool vid so far btw is that, foils in mtg may be rare but in sorcery theyre waay more special. Not only are they done imo way more lovely, textured letters, great foiling and stuff but they also have a backside with the full glorious art which sometimes is even more cool then the awesome foil already is and hides eastereggs.
Also since the set is like 403 cards in not even 30k boxes, every one of em is kinda rare af. Only a hand full of peops can make it to the full set.
Besides that, in magic imo foils get sooo much devalued by the collectorsboosters. Even the draft and set boxes may only habe a few they got dumped in the c boosters.
So yeah, just for the foil thing here, gonna enjoy the rest of vid now (:
Also i really lile the rule book. Its like with every real game you buy, just to have it i imagine is very useful. Just for that.
For FaB f.e. i still wish that to have for certain situations, since im more casual without lgs or judge near. With magic you dont really need that since you have arena and the intro but still to have one would alse be neat for that imo. 🖐
And kinda 2nd or 3rd point. I go with the point that having more key words makes the game more difficult to learn. But there are not even close that many that magic has or even fab after these few years has. I think every element has maybe 1 or 2 and there are only 4 different elements. ^^
Maybe im wrong on this.
Also since everybody or at least every place thats offering the game has a rule book this should be waay easier to get into the head then with most other games. Soo im pretty hyped to learn them just by the fact theyre not explained on the cards actually, like it more non card games 🤟🏼
All in one, really cool video. Wanna see an aftermath though after youve played a few rounds. xpp
Wanna try me soon as well 🎉
Yeah that is the plan. I should have some beta sets coming. I'm trying to get my hands on some cards then I will know.
@@SolarGamesllc super cool, excited for that already 🙏
All valid criticisms except for the curio thing since they're not 'playable'. All of this is by design and a big reason why this game isn't competitive, similar to Metazoo's 4th wall gameplay.
The stack in a casual setting is a feels bad mechanic. It's by far the best part of Magic but in a game which is basically a roleplaying board game, you don't want to get into a constant battle to actually land an attack or spell.
"Stacking" in magic feels like an unnecessary complication ;) As well as all the different kinds of phases, spells, creatures, card types and instant magic during your opponents turn etc...When you are used to it, it might be childs play. But take a step back and think about it.
I would argue MTG is as difficult to learn for a newcomer than Sorcery. Even with explanation on cards.
Out of 10 I would rate MTG difficulty as an 8 and Sorcery as an 8.5. Not that much different.
I do agree strongly the game is a pain to TRACK things like mana left, having multiple cards on the board etc...
I do think though when your are USED to Sorcery's terms in the end, the game is way simpler than MTG's complex turn and stack structure were even pros and judges sometimes get confused.
I think what you are saying about the sorcery foils is incorrect. They are made with a foil mask and only parts of the image are highlighted by the foiling. It is a very different process from MTG foiling I also think what what you are saying about the secret rarity is incorrect. The secret rares in sorcery (the curios) are all either alt arts of normal cards, or a few that are completely unplayable and not actually game cards.
It’s hard for me to jive with the complicated remarks when you say that the stack system should be present still. When teaching TCGs to new payers, the stack system is by far the most convoluted mechanic in a game you could have. I mean the concept of priority alone could take up the entirety of sorcery’s rule book
Appreciate your opinion a lot. Old school Diablo 2 player here and the artwork of Sorcery indeed is eye catching but i think the gameplay is slow and boring and the game changing cards are ultra expensive by design its too much designed around FOMO.
Would be cool if I could get some ..but wait... another new card game bought out by speculators. It might be fun ? I'll wait 'til the collapse to pick some up to try with our group.
Wider public release of Beta ia coming out in October
It wasn’t bought out by speculators, it was a Kickstarter, so only backers got product.
The Beta edition will be out October 6th and can be ordered directly through your LGS. 😉
@@CardboardGuide Nope ...beta all bought up too...LGS didn't have much of a 'position' lol. Like I said ...I'll wait it out (like all the others before it) and buy at the dip ... hope I used all the terms correctly ....haha
@@jonous2001 Team Covenant has an open preorder with promo card if you are in the US?
Correct, I looked at this. Beta you can just buy, it seems to be print to demand. So you should be able to get some if you want to.
Thanks for video. I respect Most of your comments but I suggest you at least play one game and get some cards before judging a game? I had lots of concerns about playability and I think a lot of your concerns are legitimate but to me this video feels a bit like commenting on food by looking at pictures of it. Hope you get to play the game, hold the cards and be pleasantly surprised. Peace.
Yeah, I was interested until I found out about the grid to play.
Sorcery is a Bag just like that anime game you're playing 😅
Maybe, but I will let the player base decide. I'm playing GA and I'm having a lot of fun with it. without knowing what games you play, I'd say if you enjoy the complex interactions of MTG, you will like Sorcery. I have converted more than a few MTG players to also play Grand Archive.
Dude, threshold is not hard. Devotion in magic is very similar. Just say you have to meet the devotion requirements to cast spells, but the way you count devotion is by counting the threshold symbols man. The game is just about as complex as mtgx
I will say, it's definitely more complex and involves more strategy and more moving parts than MTG or other tcg's. That's going to be a turn-off for some people, and other people are going to love that. Definitely a lot more strategy. It's definitely not as simple as MTG or other tcg's. It does move a bit slower for that reason. I love the game and the art but that's definitely a concern as far as how many people get into it. Also it's not really fair to say it's being called the "Magic killer". I'm in the sorcery discord and I have heard a person here or there say that and it makes me cringe.. the vast majority of people do not make that claim. I know the company and the team themselves who made the game do not ever make that claim and actually discourage people from saying that if they hear it, because they know it's simply not true. I certainly wouldn't say that. And I'm over MTG! Lol... It's its own thing. The few people that might say that are just saying it out of anger at MTG and hype.
Way off on foils, in rarity and looks.... that was kind of brutal to listen to, certain aspects of the cards in sorcery are foil, just not plain foil all over, creator spent A LoT of work doing that for each card...check out some of Melissa Bensons' cards, amazing!!
Seems like Einstein couldn’t play this game listening to you. Lol
So I feel confident I can play sorcery as well. It wasn't too difficult to learn, but I'm stating that the complexity of the game can be its ultimate drawback. It almost feels to me so much of the game was done for flavor, flavor, flavor that it lost simple gameplay aspects. I think missing some form of player interaction is a loss.
@@SolarGamesllc they said the art came first. Before the gameplay was developed
You got FAB All wrong. The super rare cards are never really good ingame.
Like plague hive. Who needs it ? The collectors
Fab Are super accessible
Definitely feel like your over complicating things
Navia Dratp
First view lets go