Tbh, I don't think the BA nor the SW geneseed is flawed. Their primarchs have those traits in them. It only doesn't cause problems because Sanguinius and Leman are primarchs. I believe that the flaws are simply the primal echos of the warp gods that the primarchs partly are, and those echos are less suppressed in Space Marines.
@@adrienwatson2179 I think that was because the Emperor created those marines himself and from terrans, that he had be experimenting on, where as the the marines from fenris only had similar genetics, being from a different world, and we're not made by the Emperor but the wolves themselves, And then the flaws only get worse over time with the absence of the Primarchs, I could easily see the flaws in the wolves being extremely lowered if Russ returned, and they had his presence again,
I would say No. there were PLENTY of Terran Born Space Wolves BEFORE Russ was found and the Fenresians were space marines. It’s simply the Fenrisians we’re far more successful. So I think the issue is finding genetically suitable applicants. They like are far more difficult to find but I would say it’s not that big of an issue anymore
Makes a lot of sense. I kind of head canon that its about Proximity to Fenris. The Terran Wolves only had a short time before being reunited with Leman. After that, their main base of ops was fenris? Good questions
It could be because Terran Wolves were made under the care of the Emperor. He oversaw their Terran creation. Maybe he knew of a flaw that A) only he would fix or B) only being from Fenris would fix? Something uniquely environmental on Fenris that He knew how to compensate for?
If I remember, a Wolf Priest named " Thrar "Wyrmblade" Hraldir " came close to understanding the seed and "the tempering", as it was called while a bit of a failure also showed it was possible. Magnus however came into the picture and killed the Wolf Priest and destroyed the lab. Perhaps Bellisarius can repeat history, he had more time than Hraldir.
Thing is, the Red Thirst and Black Rage are what give the Blood Angels and their successors a flavor that makes them interesting. If you create your own custom Blood Angels Primaris successor chapter and GW says they now get the Black Rage too, you get a cool Death Company. If however you like to create your own custom Space Wolves successor chapter and GW says all SW successors will now go insane and beastial, you're f***ed! Your custom chapter is now doomed. I can think that that would piss off those players. Which is why I think that GW will hint at it, but never outright say it. In the end it's all about selling plastic, not lore.
Cawl: hey guys, I stabilized the geneseed but I DID NOT REMOVE THE FLAWS ENTIRELY. New marines fall to flaws still in geneseed WLR: OMG CAWL HAS FAILED.
I thought "we" as a "community" had moved past the idea that they are "flaws" by this point in time. It's pretty clear now that they are features, not bugs. The Angels are Divine Wrath incarnate. They can recruit from mutant degenerates that would typically be purged. And as part of the price for this special capability, they need to take in the blood of others to help stabilise their own inherit mutant genetics. And the wolves mutation into the wolfen is part of their anti chaos conditioning. I believe they walk through a warp gate on Fenris as part of their initiation no??? The price they pay for their protection against the warp is that they wolf out sometimes.
I do not think cawl failed. He said multiple times he was keeping the “flaws” in the geneseed. He just stabilized it. Which doesn’t mean it won’t happen. It means it’ll happen just not in huge waves. I always took cawls words as if the blood angles and space wolves kept going with their current geneseed they would all turn into Wolfen or be overtaken by the black rage. But since he injected new fresh geneseed they can now last another 10,000 years like they did already.
Didn't he point out that they aren't actually "flaws", but rather features put in by the Emperor for reasons that are still not entirely understood. The Wolves and the Angels both have special capabilities beyond that of their fellow legions. And the "price" they pay for those capabilities are what we interpret to be the "flaws". And the Wolves wolfing out isn't even a particularly bad flaw... They still retain a degree of self control and consciousness dont they?
@@jamesespinosa690 exactly that’s why I put it in quotes lol. They are not flaws but fundamental to that specific gene seed. The emperor wanted wolf space marines. And vampire space marines. A side note he also wanted a legion that would flay people alive as a scare tactic ie the night lords. The big E was cool with a lot of messed up stuff. In the new god blight book he actually talked to morty thru Guilliman and said even morty was not beyond redemption. That’s morty. The dude who has killed billions with his plagues and is fully corrupted by Nurgle even he can be brought back into the emperors light. If he can look past issues that big then everything is on the table lol
Successor chapters have access to the Wulfen datasheets on the tabletop so that suggests, lore wise, that they can fall to the curse. It’s up to the individual player and the creators of new successor chapters whether, and to what degree, they do so. Will successor chapters suffer the same fate as the Wolfbrothers? Doubtful save for an author inventing a successor that suffers that fate for the plot of whatever story that may pit the Imperium against the Space Wolves. Definite potential for a book there, especially since Logan Grimnar dispatched warriors from the Space Wolves, in part, to help keep an eye on the new successors. Anyway, the main point of the Space Wolves finally getting successor chapters was to open up the sandbox a little more so that Space Wolves fans can create new stories for themselves and their collections, particularly if they’re not fond of the “wolf, wolf” or other aspects prevalent in the main chapter.
I can swear i read somewhere that while this are a failures, but the blood angles and space wolves Primaris marines are less likely to fall to the flaw.
It's been loosely retconned. At first the marines Cawl presented were claimed to be free of the flaw while still having the Canis Helix, but the flaw soon started to manifest in Primaris. Source - A white dwarf article on SW lore from either this year or late last year.
I JUST started painting up a homebrew Successor chapter of the Space Wolves. I don't think the rules are going to change anytime soon. Although some of the recent changes do seem to put Successor chapters of All kinds behind the 8ball I think.
MAIN POWER of Warhammer before all other fictional Universes is the ability to create your own custom homemade homebrew armies (Chapters, Stormhosts, Hive Fleets and so on), but yes - GW wants to turn once great Warhammer 40,000 into the Horse Heresy+.
Anyone that would have a problem with the space wolves successor chapters are the Inquisition Because of the month of shame incident, What do you guys think?
I would say no. Funny enough for the same reason. GW kept BA flaws to have primaris death company. They also want Wolves succesors to be a thing, so they will be fine. Not exactly a lore reason.
Personally, with what I've read those who were prone to being wulfen, who were already on their way falling after the scouring, were the ones sent to the Wolf Brothers. With a previous purge of wulfen as the thirteenth company hunted the thousand sons into the warp, that gave the rest of the wolves a clean slate. I think the rest comes with PTSD and warp exposure. The canis helix is said to give some protection from the lures of the warp, and rises against it. So feeling both these things.... With the explosion of the eye of terror, and the new crusade, those chapters who are fighting on the borders of warp space, and against psychic opponents, are the ones most likely to turn
I think you're on to something about Fenris. I think the explanation for the failure of the Primaris to solve the gene seed faults is actually a hint that the unique flaws and failures the Wolves and the Blood Angels is actually not purely in the genes. I think it's a hint that there's an immutable psychic/social component to it. Cawl could have thought he solved it in a lab and rolled it out to everyone, but then once you get the Astartes together, something about the psychic potential of humanity combined with the enhanced nature of Space Marines and the inscrutable element of the divine that is the Primarchs takes hold and the faults become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It makes me wonder had the Space Wolves welcomed the Primaris Marines but kept them totally separate, not sharing the secret of the Wolf Brothers or the curse of the Wulfen or any of that, what would have happened? What if they had done the same for the Blood Angels?
I think the "stabilization" fixes whatever happened to the wolf bothers chapter but the curse of the Wulfen remains for it was the emperors design to have it. All primaris chapters are to send all the wulfen to one preserve on the world of Fenris and they're all loaded up for the special "HOLY CRAP WE NEED ALL THE GUNS" type of battles.... Keeps the suspicion down and the types of fights you bring them to are the ones are the pyrric victories.
I would hope that the grandsons of Russ would be immune to this fate. But it would be on brand for Grimdark for the spark of hope turn into the fire that burns the wolves’ home down.
Inquisitor:"If you keep refusing to discuss this matter grand master, I'll bring it to Lord regent." Gulliman:"Good morning lord inquisitor and grand master, I suppose you two have something important to inform me that you have to asked for this private meeting." Inquisitor:"Yes my lord, please take a look at this picture, clearly the space wolves are suffering from the mutation curse and are turning into wolf monsters. The grand master however, insisted that these are Digganobz and refused to discuss further." Gulliman:"Well that's because they are indeed Digganobz, I suppose your eye sight is getting worse. I suggest you get yourself some optical implants or consider retirement, I got some nice estate in my home realms, if you want it I can gift you as a reward for your diligent service to the imperium." Inquisitor:"This clearly is a show of favouritism! The space wolves are mutated and you are hiding the truth! The inquisition will not stand from his and I will expose this truth to the public" The grand master wrist mounted bolter suffered malfunction and accidentally tragically fired right at lord inquisitor's head. The Lord regent has testified for the grand master and upon further investigation of the weapon, magos Cawl came up with similar conclusion.
The BA primaris were always lively to fall to the rage. It is a pysic issue passed down, not from the gene seed, but from brother to brother pysicicly.
Problem with the Blood Angels isn't the gene seed. It's their souls. Being that there are two Angels battling for their souls. Said so in Darkness In The Blood.
It is partly genetic. The Black Rage was imprinted on the BAs DNA by Sanguinius’s death, and spread by the need to make new gene seed from his corpse after the heresy. Says so in every BA codex.
No, simply because the lore is there to support the in game mechanics. Now that Successors like the Wolf Spear canonically exist and have their own rules I doubt GW will roll it back. What’s likely is that the groundwork is being put down for Primaris Wulfen that are 100% from successor gene stock.
Its rare enough to pass the astartes trials, less so the absurdly difficult ones of the Wolves, and then they have to contend with possibly becoming a werewolf. So if Cawl can replace that with a method with high reliability, its worth the risk.
I'm not a big fan of the big blue boy myself, but I'm seriously getting sick of hearing how good guys are feeling and turning into bad guys. We got enough bad guys let the good guys try really hard and mess up but succeed in The end. That's what makes a good story
in ones of Dritz do Urden book (yes I am that old...) they revive Dritz's father to fight him.. Dritz is the best swordsman ever among the dark elves of Menzoberranzan, but he is so because his father is no more.. the malevolent mother of dritz revive his father to take him down.. during the duel the malevolent bitch says "I have to withdraw from controlling the corpse, the more I let him be the more he will go back to his original self, and this is the only way to kill my bastard son".. I think that the Emperor, in making Russ and Sangiunius (and thus in creating the basis for the two Legions) did the same: he chose some very specific warp entities to "trap" into the soul of the Primarchs but he also had to dilute them a littlebit less, to keep them as strong as possible.. this created the base for the wulfen curse and the red thirst but also created what probably are the most powerfull legion in terms of pure fighting skill
Maybe the powers of the Emperor worked through Cawl in some ways to slightly tweak the deviant geanseeds? just a random thought A primaris wolfen would be a powerhouse on a battle field, a bigger, faster, stronger wolfen, now there would be a model im willing to see! sort of like a new 13th company primaris wolfen strike force! 👍😂👍
If Cawl made Primaris marines after studying the primarch project, does that mean the primarchs have cables for tendons and all those new upgrades? Is that directly addressed anywhere?
I see the wolves as having a genetic recessive trait that can be triggered due to the recipients,. BA rage is part of a psychic bond to their fallen primarch. Blood thirst maybe genetic dominant trait.
Listen, remember once and for all: the MAIN POWER of Warhammer before all other fictional Universes is the ability to create your own custom homemade homebrew armies (Chapters, Stormhosts, Hive Fleets and so on). Colour schemes, heraldy, story and characters. For DECADES, people have been creating their own Space Wolf Successors, but they have been subjected to aggression by "gatekeepers" and "loreprotectors". The Primaris gave me the LEGAL opportunity to do as I want. Of course, I will fight for my rights. Even against the corrupt GW who wants to turn Warhammer 40,000 into the Horse Heresy+.
About flaws of Space Wolfs and Blood Angels, I belive they are simmiliar but still diffrent cases. In case of the Angels in play is divded soul of their primarch, where both sides fight for control over Sanguinus sons. In case of wolves I think is easier task
Primaris makes all the past failed organs operational. Removes the issue of flash cloned gene seed and reduces the chance of mutation and things like wulfen and black rage. Primaris are more mentally strong and stable.
In my opinion it's because of how the wolves gene seed is affected by the warp my best examples are rune priests and the wulfen. The rune priests need a medium in order to focus the warp into desired out comes mean while the wulfen are a devolved space Marine who attacks all but space wolves thus making them the perfect executioners for the emperor of man kind. Even at their lowest the wolves still serve!
The Rage is a result of the angles death not the genes themselves, the Red Thirst is his gene legacy and was present before his death. It's just made worse with the Rage. So not a definite failure of the the tampering.
I think the successors would stay. Wasn't the Genesee they used more stable and pure? This doesn't mean that the wulfen won't happen but most likely a lot less. I don't think the All Father would allow our successors to fall. We will stand as the Wolves of Fenris have stood.
You know, as far as I remember, Space Marines were not Emperor invention, but of scientist who worked for him. So yeah, after 10k years of resarch, study and experiments, the last true scientist in the Imperium could improve the gen seed
No they were his invention. He just brought in several specialists to help him work on the project. At least, I know the Primarchs were his specifically. And then he derived the Marines from the Primarch data and DNA he had collected thus far. I had came up with a theory a couple weeks ago that I think is very interesting. If my understanding of the timeline of events is correct, the Primarchs were taken before the Emperor launched the Solar Crusade. Of that I'm fairly confident. The Marines were deployed before Terra was fully conquered according to the book with the character you're talking about (Astarte). So my question is, when was the Astronomicon built and lit up? If it was after the Primarchs were taken. Then it could explain a *lot* of the reasons why the Emperor made so many of the seemingly contradictory and irrational decisions that he did. My theory is perhaps he never planned on launching the Great Crusade with "conventional" warp travel. Perhaps his plan from the beginning was to build the Primarchs. Conquer Earth, and maybe the Sol System. And then go straight on to building his webway project. That way he would never have to deal with Navigators in the first place. He could even go straight from Earth, into Mars or even the Moon through their respective Webway gates. And with his 20 Primarchs, he would be more than able to conquer those planets himself. He wouldn't need to ally with Mars and make the concessions that he did in allowing them to worship him as a god. Combine this with my second theory that the Astronomicon was actually secretly very very taxing on the Emperors mind. That the strain it put on him was what ultimately put him on such a tight clock, and forced him to make so many dumb decisions (like chastising Lorgar the way he did). If the Primarchs weren't scattered he wouldn't have had to light it up and pay all that psychic energy.
I mean the Space wolf geneseed isnt inherently cursed. Fenris did that. The wulfen didnt exist in the Legion until the first Fenrisians were recruited. Fenris is uniquely unsuited for the space wolf geneseed. And the Space wolves always had successors, it was just stated "No successors recognized by the Space Wolves" So the chapters were always there, the Wolves just either didnt know or didn't want to admit it. Because how bad would it make Fenris look if some other chapter never devolves into a werewolf?
This The Terran wolves did just fine. But then again Maybe because the Terran 6th were not around very long until Leman was found and Fenris became their main base of operations? Maybe its a proximity/time away from Fenris type thing?
Actually it's precisely the other way around. You can't find a better match for SW genseed than on Fenris. The ancestors of the people of Fenris, the people who colonised it back in the golden age used the Canis Helix heavily in engineering themselves to adapt to life on the artificially created world of Fenris. We are told this in the novel "Thousand Sons" and "Wolfsbane" The giant animals on Fenris that look like wolves are devolved remnants of their ancestors. We are told this in "Wolfsbane" "Thousand Sons" and also the Lucas the trickster novel, where a Dark Eldar analyses a Fenrisian wolf and confirms it's genetically engineered (crudely by Eldar standards) and not a wolf at all. The Fenrisians are the most suitable for the acceptance of Russ geneseed. This is confirmed in Wolfsbane, when Russ is asked if he didn't think it was convenient that: "The primarch-executioner arriving here on this harsh world of wolves? A being whose genetic gift meshes perfectly with the strain of mankind found here? This playground world of sagas and ancient stories made real" The only successor the wolves had until Primaris were the Wolf Brothers. This is confirmed in numerous novels and editions of codex, not sure where you are getting the idea from there are more that were secret. There is a whole novel dedicated to the fact they don't have successors their attempts to fix the problem until Magnus gets involved and invaded Fenris to destroy their work.
Cawl’s failure with BA is definitely just a sign that the flaws still exist, the successor chapters just won’t “hulk out” at the same rates, for both chapters
On the subject of the Blood Angels, are they succumbing to the Red Thirst or the Black Rage? That's the real question, one is a malady of the geneseed, the other is of the soul that is spread the blood of Sanguinius.
Pretty sure he says that in one of the novels, that he couldn't get rid of it easily, but decided not to continue trying when he figured that they had been designed on purpose
Just the fact that the Wolves could exist as a legion before Fenris makes this point stand on very precarious grounds. If anything it is an indictment of both the Fenrisians themselves as the instability only becomes a factor after Russ abandoned his sons. Fenris, in a sense, was too much of a good thing when it came to compatability as both the Wolves and Fenrisians both incorporated canine DNA into their genomes. Think of Russ and his early legion as pure breed hounds where as the Fenrisians were like a mutt you can pick up at the local shelter. Without a pure genetic source from which to create new and untainted gene-seed the Wolves were stuck with what was on hand and that had already been tainted by the influence of Fenris after Russ went out for some smokes. All Cawl really did is just get access to pure genetic samples that hadn't been mixed with that of Fenris. That allowed it to be stabilized which, for all intents and purposes, is close enough and makes the Primaris Wolves probably closer to the Emperor's design and would make Cawl and Bjorn more alike than one would initially think.
The "flaws" of the Blood Angel and Space Wolves geneseeds being a planned feature kinda makes me wonder even more if the Emperor influenced where the primarchs landed when they were scattered by chaos. I get that it's just simple writing, "oh what does the home of the werewolf space vikings look like" "well its an icy death world with giant wolves and the hans are essentially vikings". But think about it from an in universe perspective... Leman Russ the primarch who was designed to be the Emperors executioner, designed with wolf traits just so happens to land on a planet where wolves are a major deal, where (as it was hinted at in multiple books) the wolves are not actually wolves but humans who underwent excessive gene editing to survive the harsh planet, where the human population also seems to also have some gene editing (possibly there was multiple groups in the past, one group heavily edited the other only lightly). All the primarchs just so happened to land on planets that fit the Emperor's intended "job" for them (well except for Angron I think). In the case of the Wulfen, it could be a case of (again hinted at in a book) it being a defense mechanism against chaos. It could be that the wolf traits in the geneseed combined with the wolf traits in the native Fenrisian dna either stabilises things or makes it worse.
no but the space wolves have a bit of a unique problem in that their legion and culture are influenced more heavily by the warp than other chapters and despite the strong morality and loyalty towards the imperium that the space wolves display. much of that loyalty was forged and tempered by leman russ himself through fenrisian culture. with this in mind, it stands to reason that any space wolves successors will not benefit from the presence of either of these as leman russ is still nowhere to be found and having fenris be the home of multiple marine chapters is just dumb and as such any chapter that succeeds the space wolves that is as attuned to the warp as the space wolves are, then it could very easily serve to make those successors more susceptible to corruption unless tempered by forces that are similar to that of the culture of fenris and/ or an individual of similar caliber as leman russ himself
All Wolves-related Astartes are doomed. Corax will kill them all. Not before he handles some other more important things; but they have to be at the top of his loyalist list in the unlikely event of an Imperial victory over Chaos. Russ, and the loyal chapters as a whole, won't see it coming until it is too late.
Bjorn's a cranky old man of course he doesn't like new things. As for them falling I guess it depends on numbers, with chances are all Chapters have to have their marines have to go to Fenris and this helps them. Did you end up making your own Space Wolf Successor chapter?
As a TS fan and never having like the SW as a whole. A good number of characters are solid, but I'm not a fan of their father or legion, so I hope they flicker out of existence. That's just me though.
GW wants to normalize all Marines. Take away their special units little by little and make them Ultramarines. Ultramarines have successor chapters, so, everyone gets them. I think the long game they are doing now is trying to strip all the unique chapters down to the same data sheets universally, and each legion has it's core rule and some characters. Roll it all into 1 codex they can re-do rules for over and over and over and make you pay 55 dollars each time. As much as I love the theories, the truth is GW is interested in normalizing the rules, since they're always a mess. If all Space Marines play the same, rule balance becomes easier. At best we can hope for is that the Wolves stay interesting in the books, since it looks like we will lose little bits as new editions release.
The thing about the Scouring is: It would have worked. That is why Magnus came personally to destroy it. Had it been successful. It would have allowed the wolves to place successor chapters all around the Eye of Terror and effectively curb-stomp every Black Crusade indefinitely. No Chaos Marine force would have a hope in hell against Legion strength Space Wolves. Also Cawl never "cured" the black rage or the wulfen curse, he just reduced the chance of it mutating. (technically it should have also restored all the missing organs some of the chapters have lost so the wolves can eat brrains and spit acid again... yay????). Cawl knows the helix and the thirst are deliberate by design, removing them would destroy their unique traits (hightened senses in the wolves, powerful vitality and lifespan in the Blood Angels). The only problem the Wolves technically have with the Primaris are the fact that the first generation of them are technically Terrans, not Fenrisians, so they do not know the ways of Fenris or the lore of the Wulfen curse. The other concern was that a Primaris turning wulfen would be a serious nightmare to take down. Ragnar's adventures actually showed him it IS actually possible for a Space Wolf to use the powers of the Wulfen and NOT transform (it just makes their eyes yellow) but Space Wolves have yet to reach that level of understanding if the beast within. (The 13th do but they have spent millenia in the warp. The members of their packs that did eventually transform only did so after thousands of years, while a present day Space Wolf can mutate in mere hours).
I can't really remember battle of the fang, did the thousand sons not have a hand in the successors failure? Without those bellends, they would've been fine?
be cawl make primaris just ultramarines in all but blood and armor color see grimnar tie them to fenris, essentially creating a space wolves legion successors start to act like wolves, not trusting inquisition and the like cry oil tears.
2 reasons I think the space wolves 🐺 should be ok I think the BA curse is more magic than a true flaw in their being they go crazy and become their primarch GW isn't going to produce a primaries wolfen model
Tbh, I don't think the BA nor the SW geneseed is flawed. Their primarchs have those traits in them. It only doesn't cause problems because Sanguinius and Leman are primarchs. I believe that the flaws are simply the primal echos of the warp gods that the primarchs partly are, and those echos are less suppressed in Space Marines.
I wouldn't call them warp gods just warp spirits that had treatise with The Emperor
Oh I like this, where the primarchs had the power to suppress the negative issues but “normal” marines just don’t have that. Very cool idea.
@@QuantemFear Kinda makes sense
But then why dod the Terran Wolves not have a problem before Leman was found?
@@adrienwatson2179 I think that was because the Emperor created those marines himself and from terrans, that he had be experimenting on, where as the the marines from fenris only had similar genetics, being from a different world, and we're not made by the Emperor but the wolves themselves,
And then the flaws only get worse over time with the absence of the Primarchs, I could easily see the flaws in the wolves being extremely lowered if Russ returned, and they had his presence again,
@@kynanwilliams8012 Makes a lot of sense
I would say No. there were PLENTY of Terran Born Space Wolves BEFORE Russ was found and the Fenresians were space marines. It’s simply the Fenrisians we’re far more successful. So I think the issue is finding genetically suitable applicants. They like are far more difficult to find but I would say it’s not that big of an issue anymore
Makes a lot of sense.
I kind of head canon that its about Proximity to Fenris.
The Terran Wolves only had a short time before being reunited with Leman.
After that, their main base of ops was fenris?
Good questions
It could be because Terran Wolves were made under the care of the Emperor. He oversaw their Terran creation. Maybe he knew of a flaw that A) only he would fix or B) only being from Fenris would fix? Something uniquely environmental on Fenris that He knew how to compensate for?
If I remember, a Wolf Priest named " Thrar "Wyrmblade" Hraldir " came close to understanding the seed and "the tempering", as it was called while a bit of a failure also showed it was possible. Magnus however came into the picture and killed the Wolf Priest and destroyed the lab. Perhaps Bellisarius can repeat history, he had more time than Hraldir.
i feel like many will have similar fates to the original successor chapter but not all of them will fall for any reason as GW can make more money
Thing is, the Red Thirst and Black Rage are what give the Blood Angels and their successors a flavor that makes them interesting. If you create your own custom Blood Angels Primaris successor chapter and GW says they now get the Black Rage too, you get a cool Death Company. If however you like to create your own custom Space Wolves successor chapter and GW says all SW successors will now go insane and beastial, you're f***ed! Your custom chapter is now doomed. I can think that that would piss off those players. Which is why I think that GW will hint at it, but never outright say it. In the end it's all about selling plastic, not lore.
Cawl: hey guys, I stabilized the geneseed but I DID NOT REMOVE THE FLAWS ENTIRELY.
New marines fall to flaws still in geneseed
WLR: OMG CAWL HAS FAILED.
Talk that truth brother
Maybe he is dyslexic
I thought "we" as a "community" had moved past the idea that they are "flaws" by this point in time.
It's pretty clear now that they are features, not bugs.
The Angels are Divine Wrath incarnate. They can recruit from mutant degenerates that would typically be purged. And as part of the price for this special capability, they need to take in the blood of others to help stabilise their own inherit mutant genetics.
And the wolves mutation into the wolfen is part of their anti chaos conditioning. I believe they walk through a warp gate on Fenris as part of their initiation no??? The price they pay for their protection against the warp is that they wolf out sometimes.
The battle of the fang got me into 40k one of my favorite books, hope you do a video one it ine day
I do not think cawl failed. He said multiple times he was keeping the “flaws” in the geneseed. He just stabilized it. Which doesn’t mean it won’t happen. It means it’ll happen just not in huge waves. I always took cawls words as if the blood angles and space wolves kept going with their current geneseed they would all turn into Wolfen or be overtaken by the black rage. But since he injected new fresh geneseed they can now last another 10,000 years like they did already.
Didn't he point out that they aren't actually "flaws", but rather features put in by the Emperor for reasons that are still not entirely understood.
The Wolves and the Angels both have special capabilities beyond that of their fellow legions. And the "price" they pay for those capabilities are what we interpret to be the "flaws". And the Wolves wolfing out isn't even a particularly bad flaw... They still retain a degree of self control and consciousness dont they?
@@jamesespinosa690 exactly that’s why I put it in quotes lol. They are not flaws but fundamental to that specific gene seed. The emperor wanted wolf space marines. And vampire space marines. A side note he also wanted a legion that would flay people alive as a scare tactic ie the night lords. The big E was cool with a lot of messed up stuff. In the new god blight book he actually talked to morty thru Guilliman and said even morty was not beyond redemption. That’s morty. The dude who has killed billions with his plagues and is fully corrupted by Nurgle even he can be brought back into the emperors light. If he can look past issues that big then everything is on the table lol
Successor chapters have access to the Wulfen datasheets on the tabletop so that suggests, lore wise, that they can fall to the curse. It’s up to the individual player and the creators of new successor chapters whether, and to what degree, they do so.
Will successor chapters suffer the same fate as the Wolfbrothers? Doubtful save for an author inventing a successor that suffers that fate for the plot of whatever story that may pit the Imperium against the Space Wolves. Definite potential for a book there, especially since Logan Grimnar dispatched warriors from the Space Wolves, in part, to help keep an eye on the new successors.
Anyway, the main point of the Space Wolves finally getting successor chapters was to open up the sandbox a little more so that Space Wolves fans can create new stories for themselves and their collections, particularly if they’re not fond of the “wolf, wolf” or other aspects prevalent in the main chapter.
I really hope in future stories the plot point around cawl using traitor gene seed IS further continued.
I can swear i read somewhere that while this are a failures, but the blood angles and space wolves Primaris marines are less likely to fall to the flaw.
It's been loosely retconned.
At first the marines Cawl presented were claimed to be free of the flaw while still having the Canis Helix, but the flaw soon started to manifest in Primaris.
Source - A white dwarf article on SW lore from either this year or late last year.
@RanK ColouR thats what i was referring to thanks i couldn't remember where it was from
In the White dwarf Article about the Wolf spear they wrote about Wulfen who serve the chapter and as i remember the Camembert from wolfspear aspirants
I meant came from not Camembert (stupid german autocorrect
@@oliverfredrich9734 😂👍
I really hope they don’t toss the Wolfspears away and any other successor chapters. I feel like there is some solid lore and stories there to be told.
I JUST started painting up a homebrew Successor chapter of the Space Wolves. I don't think the rules are going to change anytime soon.
Although some of the recent changes do seem to put Successor chapters of All kinds behind the 8ball I think.
MAIN POWER of Warhammer before all other fictional Universes is the ability to create your own custom homemade homebrew armies (Chapters, Stormhosts, Hive Fleets and so on), but yes - GW wants to turn once great Warhammer 40,000 into the Horse Heresy+.
>Space Wolves successors
>Doomed
Laughs in dead and forgotten Salamanders successors
Anyone that would have a problem with the space wolves successor chapters are the Inquisition Because of the month of shame incident, What do you guys think?
Thousand sons
@@arjandosanj6131 Yeah, them too.
Pretty much
40k Wolves are Noble beasts.
@@adrienwatson2179 nah that's the dark angels. The Wolves a Beastly nobles, feats their dichotomy
The tech priest is no psyker. The fenrisian wolves are chaos resitant. An area to explore would be perhaps be chaos and wolfe successors?
I would say no. Funny enough for the same reason. GW kept BA flaws to have primaris death company. They also want Wolves succesors to be a thing, so they will be fine. Not exactly a lore reason.
Personally, with what I've read those who were prone to being wulfen, who were already on their way falling after the scouring, were the ones sent to the Wolf Brothers. With a previous purge of wulfen as the thirteenth company hunted the thousand sons into the warp, that gave the rest of the wolves a clean slate.
I think the rest comes with PTSD and warp exposure. The canis helix is said to give some protection from the lures of the warp, and rises against it. So feeling both these things....
With the explosion of the eye of terror, and the new crusade, those chapters who are fighting on the borders of warp space, and against psychic opponents, are the ones most likely to turn
I think you're on to something about Fenris. I think the explanation for the failure of the Primaris to solve the gene seed faults is actually a hint that the unique flaws and failures the Wolves and the Blood Angels is actually not purely in the genes. I think it's a hint that there's an immutable psychic/social component to it. Cawl could have thought he solved it in a lab and rolled it out to everyone, but then once you get the Astartes together, something about the psychic potential of humanity combined with the enhanced nature of Space Marines and the inscrutable element of the divine that is the Primarchs takes hold and the faults become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It makes me wonder had the Space Wolves welcomed the Primaris Marines but kept them totally separate, not sharing the secret of the Wolf Brothers or the curse of the Wulfen or any of that, what would have happened? What if they had done the same for the Blood Angels?
I think the "stabilization" fixes whatever happened to the wolf bothers chapter but the curse of the Wulfen remains for it was the emperors design to have it.
All primaris chapters are to send all the wulfen to one preserve on the world of Fenris and they're all loaded up for the special "HOLY CRAP WE NEED ALL THE GUNS" type of battles.... Keeps the suspicion down and the types of fights you bring them to are the ones are the pyrric victories.
I would hope that the grandsons of Russ would be immune to this fate. But it would be on brand for Grimdark for the spark of hope turn into the fire that burns the wolves’ home down.
Inquisitor:"If you keep refusing to discuss this matter grand master, I'll bring it to Lord regent."
Gulliman:"Good morning lord inquisitor and grand master, I suppose you two have something important to inform me that you have to asked for this private meeting."
Inquisitor:"Yes my lord, please take a look at this picture, clearly the space wolves are suffering from the mutation curse and are turning into wolf monsters. The grand master however, insisted that these are Digganobz and refused to discuss further."
Gulliman:"Well that's because they are indeed Digganobz, I suppose your eye sight is getting worse. I suggest you get yourself some optical implants or consider retirement, I got some nice estate in my home realms, if you want it I can gift you as a reward for your diligent service to the imperium."
Inquisitor:"This clearly is a show of favouritism! The space wolves are mutated and you are hiding the truth! The inquisition will not stand from his and I will expose this truth to the public"
The grand master wrist mounted bolter suffered malfunction and accidentally tragically fired right at lord inquisitor's head. The Lord regent has testified for the grand master and upon further investigation of the weapon, magos Cawl came up with similar conclusion.
I am actually more interested in seeing the failure of the " traitor " geneseed that kwal " did not" use for the primas founding
The BA primaris were always lively to fall to the rage. It is a pysic issue passed down, not from the gene seed, but from brother to brother pysicicly.
Problem with the Blood Angels isn't the gene seed. It's their souls. Being that there are two Angels battling for their souls. Said so in Darkness In The Blood.
It is partly genetic. The Black Rage was imprinted on the BAs DNA by Sanguinius’s death, and spread by the need to make new gene seed from his corpse after the heresy.
Says so in every BA codex.
No, simply because the lore is there to support the in game mechanics. Now that Successors like the Wolf Spear canonically exist and have their own rules I doubt GW will roll it back. What’s likely is that the groundwork is being put down for Primaris Wulfen that are 100% from successor gene stock.
Its rare enough to pass the astartes trials, less so the absurdly difficult ones of the Wolves, and then they have to contend with possibly becoming a werewolf. So if Cawl can replace that with a method with high reliability, its worth the risk.
I'm not a big fan of the big blue boy myself, but I'm seriously getting sick of hearing how good guys are feeling and turning into bad guys. We got enough bad guys let the good guys try really hard and mess up but succeed in The end. That's what makes a good story
in ones of Dritz do Urden book (yes I am that old...) they revive Dritz's father to fight him.. Dritz is the best swordsman ever among the dark elves of Menzoberranzan, but he is so because his father is no more.. the malevolent mother of dritz revive his father to take him down.. during the duel the malevolent bitch says "I have to withdraw from controlling the corpse, the more I let him be the more he will go back to his original self, and this is the only way to kill my bastard son".. I think that the Emperor, in making Russ and Sangiunius (and thus in creating the basis for the two Legions) did the same: he chose some very specific warp entities to "trap" into the soul of the Primarchs but he also had to dilute them a littlebit less, to keep them as strong as possible.. this created the base for the wulfen curse and the red thirst but also created what probably are the most powerfull legion in terms of pure fighting skill
Maybe the powers of the Emperor worked through Cawl in some ways to slightly tweak the deviant geanseeds? just a random thought
A primaris wolfen would be a powerhouse on a battle field, a bigger, faster, stronger wolfen, now there would be a model im willing to see! sort of like a new 13th company primaris wolfen strike force! 👍😂👍
If Cawl made Primaris marines after studying the primarch project, does that mean the primarchs have cables for tendons and all those new upgrades? Is that directly addressed anywhere?
I see the wolves as having a genetic recessive trait that can be triggered due to the recipients,. BA rage is part of a psychic bond to their fallen primarch. Blood thirst maybe genetic dominant trait.
Listen, remember once and for all: the MAIN POWER of Warhammer before all other fictional Universes is the ability to create your own custom homemade homebrew armies (Chapters, Stormhosts, Hive Fleets and so on). Colour schemes, heraldy, story and characters.
For DECADES, people have been creating their own Space Wolf Successors, but they have been subjected to aggression by "gatekeepers" and "loreprotectors".
The Primaris gave me the LEGAL opportunity to do as I want.
Of course, I will fight for my rights.
Even against the corrupt GW who wants to turn Warhammer 40,000 into the Horse Heresy+.
About flaws of Space Wolfs and Blood Angels, I belive they are simmiliar but still diffrent cases. In case of the Angels in play is divded soul of their primarch, where both sides fight for control over Sanguinus sons. In case of wolves I think is easier task
Primaris makes all the past failed organs operational. Removes the issue of flash cloned gene seed and reduces the chance of mutation and things like wulfen and black rage. Primaris are more mentally strong and stable.
In my opinion it's because of how the wolves gene seed is affected by the warp my best examples are rune priests and the wulfen. The rune priests need a medium in order to focus the warp into desired out comes mean while the wulfen are a devolved space Marine who attacks all but space wolves thus making them the perfect executioners for the emperor of man kind. Even at their lowest the wolves still serve!
The Rage is a result of the angles death not the genes themselves, the Red Thirst is his gene legacy and was present before his death. It's just made worse with the Rage.
So not a definite failure of the the tampering.
I think the successors would stay. Wasn't the Genesee they used more stable and pure? This doesn't mean that the wulfen won't happen but most likely a lot less. I don't think the All Father would allow our successors to fall. We will stand as the Wolves of Fenris have stood.
You know, as far as I remember, Space Marines were not Emperor invention, but of scientist who worked for him. So yeah, after 10k years of resarch, study and experiments, the last true scientist in the Imperium could improve the gen seed
No they were his invention. He just brought in several specialists to help him work on the project.
At least, I know the Primarchs were his specifically. And then he derived the Marines from the Primarch data and DNA he had collected thus far.
I had came up with a theory a couple weeks ago that I think is very interesting.
If my understanding of the timeline of events is correct, the Primarchs were taken before the Emperor launched the Solar Crusade. Of that I'm fairly confident. The Marines were deployed before Terra was fully conquered according to the book with the character you're talking about (Astarte). So my question is, when was the Astronomicon built and lit up? If it was after the Primarchs were taken. Then it could explain a *lot* of the reasons why the Emperor made so many of the seemingly contradictory and irrational decisions that he did. My theory is perhaps he never planned on launching the Great Crusade with "conventional" warp travel. Perhaps his plan from the beginning was to build the Primarchs. Conquer Earth, and maybe the Sol System. And then go straight on to building his webway project. That way he would never have to deal with Navigators in the first place. He could even go straight from Earth, into Mars or even the Moon through their respective Webway gates. And with his 20 Primarchs, he would be more than able to conquer those planets himself. He wouldn't need to ally with Mars and make the concessions that he did in allowing them to worship him as a god.
Combine this with my second theory that the Astronomicon was actually secretly very very taxing on the Emperors mind. That the strain it put on him was what ultimately put him on such a tight clock, and forced him to make so many dumb decisions (like chastising Lorgar the way he did). If the Primarchs weren't scattered he wouldn't have had to light it up and pay all that psychic energy.
Pretty sure big daddy BC stated that he left in the flaws once he figured they were by design.
I mean the Space wolf geneseed isnt inherently cursed. Fenris did that. The wulfen didnt exist in the Legion until the first Fenrisians were recruited. Fenris is uniquely unsuited for the space wolf geneseed.
And the Space wolves always had successors, it was just stated "No successors recognized by the Space Wolves"
So the chapters were always there, the Wolves just either didnt know or didn't want to admit it. Because how bad would it make Fenris look if some other chapter never devolves into a werewolf?
This
The Terran wolves did just fine.
But then again
Maybe because the Terran 6th were not around very long until Leman was found and Fenris became their main base of operations?
Maybe its a proximity/time away from Fenris type thing?
Actually it's precisely the other way around. You can't find a better match for SW genseed than on Fenris.
The ancestors of the people of Fenris, the people who colonised it back in the golden age used the Canis Helix heavily in engineering themselves to adapt to life on the artificially created world of Fenris.
We are told this in the novel "Thousand Sons" and "Wolfsbane"
The giant animals on Fenris that look like wolves are devolved remnants of their ancestors. We are told this in "Wolfsbane" "Thousand Sons" and also the Lucas the trickster novel, where a Dark Eldar analyses a Fenrisian wolf and confirms it's genetically engineered (crudely by Eldar standards) and not a wolf at all.
The Fenrisians are the most suitable for the acceptance of Russ geneseed. This is confirmed in Wolfsbane, when Russ is asked if he didn't think it was convenient that:
"The primarch-executioner arriving here on this harsh world of wolves? A being whose genetic gift meshes perfectly with the strain of mankind found here? This playground world of sagas and ancient stories made real"
The only successor the wolves had until Primaris were the Wolf Brothers. This is confirmed in numerous novels and editions of codex, not sure where you are getting the idea from there are more that were secret.
There is a whole novel dedicated to the fact they don't have successors their attempts to fix the problem until Magnus gets involved and invaded Fenris to destroy their work.
10k yrs of data input on function. I'm okay with the upgrades.
Dont be hating on Cawl lol
Hes the only reason the Wolves survived the Heresy
The Emperor was always upgrading
Cawl’s failure with BA is definitely just a sign that the flaws still exist, the successor chapters just won’t “hulk out” at the same rates, for both chapters
If you actually read the material…
On the subject of the Blood Angels, are they succumbing to the Red Thirst or the Black Rage? That's the real question, one is a malady of the geneseed, the other is of the soul that is spread the blood of Sanguinius.
I mostly think Crawl knew he didn't get rid of the flaws, of all the geneseed and still made the primaris, What do you guys think?
Pretty sure he says that in one of the novels, that he couldn't get rid of it easily, but decided not to continue trying when he figured that they had been designed on purpose
I think he was able to lessen the severity of the flaw. But realized that he couldn't rid it comepletely.
Helps when you read first and post second.
Just the fact that the Wolves could exist as a legion before Fenris makes this point stand on very precarious grounds. If anything it is an indictment of both the Fenrisians themselves as the instability only becomes a factor after Russ abandoned his sons.
Fenris, in a sense, was too much of a good thing when it came to compatability as both the Wolves and Fenrisians both incorporated canine DNA into their genomes. Think of Russ and his early legion as pure breed hounds where as the Fenrisians were like a mutt you can pick up at the local shelter.
Without a pure genetic source from which to create new and untainted gene-seed the Wolves were stuck with what was on hand and that had already been tainted by the influence of Fenris after Russ went out for some smokes.
All Cawl really did is just get access to pure genetic samples that hadn't been mixed with that of Fenris. That allowed it to be stabilized which, for all intents and purposes, is close enough and makes the Primaris Wolves probably closer to the Emperor's design and would make Cawl and Bjorn more alike than one would initially think.
what is it about their geneseed that makes successors impossible for space wolves?
The "flaws" of the Blood Angel and Space Wolves geneseeds being a planned feature kinda makes me wonder even more if the Emperor influenced where the primarchs landed when they were scattered by chaos. I get that it's just simple writing, "oh what does the home of the werewolf space vikings look like" "well its an icy death world with giant wolves and the hans are essentially vikings". But think about it from an in universe perspective... Leman Russ the primarch who was designed to be the Emperors executioner, designed with wolf traits just so happens to land on a planet where wolves are a major deal, where (as it was hinted at in multiple books) the wolves are not actually wolves but humans who underwent excessive gene editing to survive the harsh planet, where the human population also seems to also have some gene editing (possibly there was multiple groups in the past, one group heavily edited the other only lightly). All the primarchs just so happened to land on planets that fit the Emperor's intended "job" for them (well except for Angron I think). In the case of the Wulfen, it could be a case of (again hinted at in a book) it being a defense mechanism against chaos. It could be that the wolf traits in the geneseed combined with the wolf traits in the native Fenrisian dna either stabilises things or makes it worse.
If they want to stop the flaw then they will have to stop taking the Canis Helix.
no but the space wolves have a bit of a unique problem in that their legion and culture are influenced more heavily by the warp than other chapters and despite the strong morality and loyalty towards the imperium that the space wolves display. much of that loyalty was forged and tempered by leman russ himself through fenrisian culture.
with this in mind, it stands to reason that any space wolves successors will not benefit from the presence of either of these as leman russ is still nowhere to be found and having fenris be the home of multiple marine chapters is just dumb and as such any chapter that succeeds the space wolves that is as attuned to the warp as the space wolves are, then it could very easily serve to make those successors more susceptible to corruption unless tempered by forces that are similar to that of the culture of fenris and/ or an individual of similar caliber as leman russ himself
All Wolves-related Astartes are doomed. Corax will kill them all. Not before he handles some other more important things; but they have to be at the top of his loyalist list in the unlikely event of an Imperial victory over Chaos. Russ, and the loyal chapters as a whole, won't see it coming until it is too late.
Wtf?
I want a primaris wolfen! Larger stronger etc
Bjorn's a cranky old man of course he doesn't like new things. As for them falling I guess it depends on numbers, with chances are all Chapters have to have their marines have to go to Fenris and this helps them.
Did you end up making your own Space Wolf Successor chapter?
Rho my brother I get it I would love e tk see Leman of the Russ return next I love the Wolves of Fenris so we need tbe wolf king back
As a TS fan and never having like the SW as a whole. A good number of characters are solid, but I'm not a fan of their father or legion, so I hope they flicker out of existence. That's just me though.
the Emperor.. so called the greatest man who made ones of the dumbest mistakes XD
GW wants to normalize all Marines. Take away their special units little by little and make them Ultramarines. Ultramarines have successor chapters, so, everyone gets them. I think the long game they are doing now is trying to strip all the unique chapters down to the same data sheets universally, and each legion has it's core rule and some characters. Roll it all into 1 codex they can re-do rules for over and over and over and make you pay 55 dollars each time.
As much as I love the theories, the truth is GW is interested in normalizing the rules, since they're always a mess. If all Space Marines play the same, rule balance becomes easier. At best we can hope for is that the Wolves stay interesting in the books, since it looks like we will lose little bits as new editions release.
The thing about the Scouring is: It would have worked. That is why Magnus came personally to destroy it. Had it been successful. It would have allowed the wolves to place successor chapters all around the Eye of Terror and effectively curb-stomp every Black Crusade indefinitely. No Chaos Marine force would have a hope in hell against Legion strength Space Wolves.
Also Cawl never "cured" the black rage or the wulfen curse, he just reduced the chance of it mutating. (technically it should have also restored all the missing organs some of the chapters have lost so the wolves can eat brrains and spit acid again... yay????).
Cawl knows the helix and the thirst are deliberate by design, removing them would destroy their unique traits (hightened senses in the wolves, powerful vitality and lifespan in the Blood Angels). The only problem the Wolves technically have with the Primaris are the fact that the first generation of them are technically Terrans, not Fenrisians, so they do not know the ways of Fenris or the lore of the Wulfen curse. The other concern was that a Primaris turning wulfen would be a serious nightmare to take down.
Ragnar's adventures actually showed him it IS actually possible for a Space Wolf to use the powers of the Wulfen and NOT transform (it just makes their eyes yellow) but Space Wolves have yet to reach that level of understanding if the beast within. (The 13th do but they have spent millenia in the warp. The members of their packs that did eventually transform only did so after thousands of years, while a present day Space Wolf can mutate in mere hours).
I can't really remember battle of the fang, did the thousand sons not have a hand in the successors failure?
Without those bellends, they would've been fine?
Everything cawl has done is an abomination
Psh
Only reason the wolves still exist is because of Cawl
He saved all of them from Horus
So even if he makes some mistakes, hes still in the positive
I hope so
Primaris Wulfen. Im down
be cawl
make primaris just ultramarines in all but blood and armor color
see grimnar tie them to fenris, essentially creating a space wolves legion
successors start to act like wolves, not trusting inquisition and the like
cry oil tears.
2 reasons I think the space wolves 🐺 should be ok
I think the BA curse is more magic than a true flaw in their being they go crazy and become their primarch
GW isn't going to produce a primaries wolfen model
They are sons of Russ. They will be fine.
Im of the opinion the God Emperor of mankind made them that way.