Nice Overview Greg. It is really hard to assign grit as you are already finding! Often, they will have one feeling on the blade edge that is analogous to one grit and polish at a different grit level. All of these can be manipulated with slurry density, water concentration, and surface conditioning as I often cover in my videos. I agree it as well is very important to get it from a reputable vendor who can do proper testing before you get the stones. I keep a list around, but I am sure it is not exhaustive. I would also heavily consider sealing up some of those stones!
Trying to be humorous, nor sarcastic: what is the grit on that countertop Greg has in his house🤣? That's a whopper of a stone .... Would it not be possible to sharpen on some leftover granite?
What does seal them. Do you think what I’m gonna use is OK or do you recommend me buying a locker? And if so, could you please recommend one with the link?
@@MrLoam910 I mean, you can ask. I don't know who does it. I know Burnell Cuttery sells them that way. I don't know what the price difference would be but I don't think it's ever gonna be a bad idea to ask.
Thanks so much for taking the time and making the effort for all of us who have wondered about these artifacts. Seems like a completely different journey for me as I have been satisfied with “just sharp”! Maybe when I start purchasing katanas, I’ll move in this direction. Enjoyable, and for sure, not a dull moment!😎
Very nice sir. I've been sharpening straight razors off and on for 9 years now and I have 3 JNATS. I have a 6 by 2 inch Shobudani Aswedo (pronounced "oz way do" and is a finisher), An 8 by 3 inch Ozuku Mizu Asagi (Level 5 finisher) and I recently got lucky and picked up a Nakayama Aswedo which is roughly around the same size as a 6 by 2 stone. They were by no means cheap at all. Also the higher the number of hardness, the slower cutting speed it has too. Specifically with straight razors. My Nakayama Aswedo is decent fast with my Shobudani Aswedo in the middle and My Ozuku Mizu Asagi is the slowest of the 3. I could do 40 x strokes on the Nakayama while it could take 80 on my Ozuku and only 60 on my Shobudani.
I hone razors professionally, and straight razors guys are really on the money when it comes to JNS, I use a Nakayama 5+ finisher, amazing stones, no other natural can get close to Japanese stones.
The discussion about grits ... right on point about setting bevels. I learned to not be afraid to go down-grit, even if that means you have to re-polish. The thing about natural stones that jumps out at me is that - it would seem that - as the stone wears away, you get different surfaces? The stone itself is layered, different strata, different imperfections. The other thing that jumps out at me in broad terms is the hobby "rabbit hole". I'm thinking about getting a new range/ oven and I haven't a clue about what's good or not. Knives and stones I can at least talk about, but ranges ...🤣? Spend $2,000 total on knives and stones and 50 BESS then wreck the food on a cruddy range? Yeah, of course! Induction? Glass top? Smart? Which mine do you get your natural range from, and from which level, or is a synthetic range better? Are there websites that compare ranges (or are those too bulky to set up?). Then there's food and meal planning and grass-fed or corn-fed, free-range or pastured, fertilized or organic, frozen or fresh, pesticided or buggy, pizza at a restaurant or take-out or delivered ... so complicated.
The rest of the ones you don't love are great for traditional 3 layer knives . Because they make the soft steel dark and simultaneously sharpen the harder steel
Man, I really appreciate your compliment and coming here and I'm reading all of your comments and just appreciate it and now I just need to do the time and get the education and experience
When I buy natural stones lacquered my stones, I taped them off and the lacquer had a reaction and melted the tape not much happened just left some un-dryable lacquer on the surface I had to scape off, I found out the clear gorilla tape doesn’t melt. I changed make so much of a difference
Ya did well Greg. It is a humbling subject and everything I know is consistent with your advise. I have three main stones in my jnat collection and a bunch of naguras that give some flexibility to how each stone can be used. Thanks for making this video.
Nice overview. An excellent TH-cam reference is Japanese Natural Whetstones (JNATS), the go-to guy for these whetstones. He recommends, and tutorials lacquer application. These whetstones are intimidating, and you can go wrong buying from unfamiliar online sources, but good sellers are out there. Follow JNATS further, the “romance” and “tradition” is rewarding. Great topic; dive deeper, don’t apologize.
We’re gonna keep going. I just don’t want to upset those who are aficionados. I also don’t want to send people down the wrong path. Thank you for your kind words and your support.
@@nadm …Jeopardy doesn’t penalize anyone for misspelling, we can’t be found guilty for mangling Japanese pronunciation from unfamiliarity, not malice. I’ve only become intrigued with JNAT for a couple years, no doubt make a hash of identifying stones, but find the geological gifts fascinating. Onward…and again…unapologetically. 👍
Gentle comments :) Another great video Greg, Given your great knife collection I have been looking forward to seeing your JNAT collection. I think you started it off very well with the Rabbit Hole analogy. Sadly in my case it is more like a Bear Cave at this point :( My advice to new users is the following: 0) Greg often uses the term luxury item, when he describes something as very nice to have vs. a need to have. JNATs are luxury item and you are not missing out if you do not own one. 1) Go for finishing stones as I do not believe that JNATs have much value as sharpeners and intermediate stones, and they are slower than synthetics. 2) If you experiment with a lot of polishing techniques, to bring out the different steel patterns, they are much easier to use than synthetics. If that is the case then perhaps an intermediate JNAT is in order. 3) When it comes to your final finisher, most JNATs provide a much better feel and feedback than synthetics. Also if you hate polishers that load up, than a JNAT can be a great choice. 4) They provide super comfortable edges for straight razors. 5) Talk to your seller and let them know what you are trying to do with the stone. Let's say that your friend has a stone you like, you can buy a stone from the same seller from the same mine, with the same name, from the same strata and the same color etc. and they can be two completely different stones. Its like taking a shovel full of rocks from your backyard...you never know what you are going to get till you use it. 6) There is a lot of talk in the JNAT community that revolves around JNAT edges staying sharper longer because the stones have multiple levels of grit (even though there is no such thing as grit rating for JNATs) in the stone that also gets finer during your sharpening session. This is great for polishing and straight razors, but I think the idea of significantly longer lasting edges is mumbo jumbo. Way too much pseudo science is used to try and prove JNAT edge longevity superiority. Besides, if you are into sharpening and you go all the way to JNATs...then you probably love to sharpen, so sharpening your knives when they get dull is a fun task, made even more fun when you try a JNAT finisher 7). Buy one, learn its characteristics and master it before you buy another. As someone who has too many JNATs, trust me when I tell you, if you have a finisher that puts on a good edge, buying a 2nd, 3rd, 4th is not going to transform your sharpness. 8) Enjoy the experience, the feel of the stone, the smell (they can have wonderful earthy, salt water smells), the color (some are absolutely gorgeous, I have fallen victim to this for sure), the fact that you are sharpening your knife on a multi-million year old rock made out of fossilized creatures and dust. 9) Nobody is ever a master of all stones and the louder they speak, the more likely they are just posers (not speaking about you Greg you were right on point). All you can hope to be is a master of your own stones. Now that I look into my own words I may have fallen into my own trap...I sound like a poser. 10) Never spend your lunch money on a JNAT. Scratch that, if you can afford that kind of money for lunch you can afford a JNAT :) In any case I hope this is useful. On another note, I was in DC picking up my son college and I certainly stopped by to see Ryan. He convinced me to come hang at Blade show. I am booked for Friday and Saturday and will likely see the booth of you. He knows me as Brooke and if you want to reach out to me feel free to ping him for my details. Otherwise I am not on facebook, twitter, tickety toc...All the best!
My wife and I will be at the Blade show. Ryan knows how to find me. We will be getting up with Tara from Perfect, Ave, Cutlery, and with Zach from Tokushu knife. We’re gonna go have dinner. Please come find me. I agree with the stuff you’re saying. People really do want to get into this but you don’t need to do it. It is an exotic thing and it is nice but it is very expensive and it’s easy to get discouraged.
This was fascinating. Came up in my feed. To me, sharpening is a means to an end. Not a hobby. As such, this was very interesting, as I know little about freehand work and the stones.
@@nadm I am glad I discovered your channel. This is the first video I watched I will dig in your archive and watch them all ! Greetings from the Netherlands !
@@mijzelfmaardanik greetings from America and thank you for finding us and thank you for your support. We literally use your love as our currency. I’m glad that this went well cause I was very nervous. We have an expensive archive. We do sharpening tips as well as interviews along with on boxings. We have many more titles to come because we have had many ideas. We’re going to Blade show in a couple of weeks.
@@nadm The Netherlands is small, we only have one blade show a year. I am looking forward for your excursion at the blade show over there so I can enjoy it to.
Greg, my friend. You are the man, great job trying to pronounce the names, some of them were butchered, some of them were 100% on point. When the video started I started biting my nails waiting for you to get to the Maroyama Tamagoiro Suita Sunashi, what beauty. I'm very sorry to hear about your recent misfortunes in life from reading that other comment, you're doing all you can do and more, and you look a lot healthier in the face (I noticed your weight loss in the neck area especially, good job man) 21st birthday in Vegas? Your son is very lucky to have you dude. Wishing you better luck and hoping your dog heals up real good, wife gets into remission and you guys have a great time at Blade Show, you're wonderful people and this is definitely my favorite knife channel. PS: Please don't even answer guys like that Dave Smith dude, we have Reddit and Kitchen Knife Forums for BESS tests and information all over the internet, you don't need to start using a microscope and all that, (I have one and it doesn't help you sharpen, it just lets you see the edge much better in a TINY section of the blade, a microscope inspection of the whole blade road would take longer then a sharpening session...) It's not YOUR responsibility to provide him specifically requested content for free, and even after your heartbreaking explanation he has the balls to basically repeat his nonsensical demands. Screw that. You do you man, gl in the gym tomorrow.
Thank you for that. That’s amazing. Just for the record, so you don’t worry, my wife’s father passed away from cancer. My wife is good. She doesn’t have any cancer. She’s just not well since her dad died. She’s just getting over the fact that her dad and her stepbrother died within two weeks. We lost her ex-husband in November and she has her kids by herself. Their dad was a good dad. He joined us for a lot of things and his presence is missed. Your words are very kind and amazing. Thank you for being concerned and taking the time. People don’t understand how much your time is a gift. Thank you for giving me your time. Onward and upward. We’re going to be healthier and we’re going to keep going. God bless! I’ll try to do better. Any help you have been learning to pronounce the Japanese words would be amazing. Somebody tried to help once and I can’t find the post but there’s certain rules on pronouncing vowels. God bless.
My gosh this is on the same level as to how much of an umbrella term the word “katana” is. It just like googling something and then going to what people also ask it just goes deeper and deeper. Also the thing about the fake stamps resonates with me as someone who’s has extensive research in Japanese weapons, martial arts, etc. natural stones are not the only ones that get hit with fake signatures as katana can be as well. someone who isn’t a very popular smith or merchant could put the name is a famous smith on the nakago (tang) and it would sell for more money to someone who isn’t very educated on this, it could also be used as marketing sabotage for competing smiths/ merchants/craftsman.
Try especially with 3 lqyer knife that you go length wise to create better polish instead of on a 45 or angle. Especially in these knives in later stage of polish ect
I've avoided those due to price. They also differ quite a lot and at the prices larger stones go for, I'd like to try it out (that is almost never possible). Getting to know all the mines and types of stones to know reliably what to expect is not that easy either. I have some european naturals though (mostly Welsh). Some of them I like, some are not that good. (I'm not talking about well known stones like coticule or belgian blue). I'd love a 3x8" sized coticule but cannot justify the amount of money. The fact I hate irregular shaped stones or small like 2" wide ones makes those cost more but I just hate nothing short of "full size". I think slurry management is quite important for the few naturals I have. Sometimes slurry from a suitable nagura can really change the character of some synthetics too.
@@nadm There used to be at least some seller in eBay selling all kinds of Welsh slats, mostly in 8-13k range. Some of them are quite nice finishers, some just not that much. For coarser grits none of the few tries have been a hit in naturals. But I value speed in those anyways and have plenty of good synthetics. Belgian blue and coticule are of course the well known europeans that everyone knows of. I a kind of like both of those but could afford a large one only as the cheaper blue that really lacks the power coticule has. I guess there is a reason wjhy it is cheaper. :D
@@nadm I don't think that is what he means; there are natural cements that hold the grains together. The ones you have are redish/tanish/brownish because of iron oxides in between the sand grains; those iron oxides form a natural cement. Sandstones are all cemented by something, the 3 dominant materials are iron ochers like in yours, silicon precipitates in quartzites, and lime precipitates in calcareous sandstones. The second category of natural stones are the metamorphic materials--slate, schist and novaculites. In these both the starting material (the sand or silt + whatever its cement was) has been partially melted and recrystallized, and this crystal growth holds them together. A good example of this is the belgian hone, where garnets formed in situ during the metamorphic process, so what originally was just a mud slurry became natural garnet paper! Lastly, some materials have silt+cement embedding the grit grains; where you have a larger particular embedded in a smaller silty or muck material; then the entire mass became cemented together with one of the above mentioned 3 cementsl Graywacke is a very large grained example of this. These materials tend to be from poorly sorted original deposits and so are not often seen as fine polishing whetstones, but there are examples of materials used for axe stones and the like that have extra earthy bits in the slurry...Think about the Little House on the Prairie context of have a dull axe, find a handy rock to make it less bad! You will see a lot of these sorts of "stones of opportunity" show up in historic society museums, and if you look at really old homesteads the front porch step almost always has an axe-sharpening depression in its corner!
The crow pattern. Karasu. Beautiful. And wait until you get into the Mikawa nagura options on those harder polishing stones - Botan, tenjyou , mejira, the silky Koma and finally, of course, the Tomo (same as primary stone) It’s a deep deep rabbit hole lol
Mikawa nagura is one that I do have and you definitely saw it in the lineup. I have not seen some of the ones you have said, but I do use them regularly.
@@nadm yes I saw yours. Beautiful! I have never used the Mikawa bench stones but the smaller nagura/slurry/correcting stones were integral to my razor honing (I don’t shave anymore- ZZ Top beard for years) 😂. They all come from the Mikawa mine. A very special collection of strata with creamy, silky feels On very hard 4.5-5 JNATs they really come in handy for the slurry progression. Those I mentioned are the ‘standard’ (tho as you know, nothing is standard, of course) recommended progression for the razor sharpening crowd. Koma Nagura being the most prized (and $$) I own several beautiful koppa stones- all very hard and meant for razors (nakayama kiita kan, okudo shiro suita, takashema Karasu and an Ozuko asagi) each so unique and each a puzzle to figure out! I invested in several of the mikawa nagura stones and follow those up w my tomo for each. It’s truly an art and I don’t think I will ever come close to mastering it. But I do so enjoy the rabbit hole! Keep on cranking out your wonderful videos! I enjoy them! And enjoy the journey further into JNATs I am in the market for a larger full size softer stone to start using for my kitchen knives- I mostly use naniwas or Arkansas for those now. Such a great hobby. 👍
@@joshuarosenblatt thank you for your well wishing. We’re gonna have to cut back our videos in the new year. There’s been a drought on TH-cam. People are not advertising. We used to make a little bit of money but now we make less than half of what we used to make, even though we have more views and more subscribers. We’re gonna cut it back for a while until the economy picks up. Right now we’re still try to put it out every week but in the new year we’re probably gonna have to cut back to once a month.
I was hot and heavy to get into J-nat Stones a few years ago, but the uncertainty of what you were getting, as well as the prices dissuaded me. The logical conclusion I came to is that it makes sense only to buy the final natural stone you use in your progression. It doesn’t make sense to me to buy coarser grade stones when you’re still going through a progression. The top end $$$$ polishing stones are apparently amazing. Why people bother is because they still leave behind a little bit of “tooth” that helps bite into the product. There are a lot of charlatans going on because of the potential $$ involved. Mr Imanishi IS one of the highly trusted dealers. Because of the “tooth” effect you would NOT want to be stropping afterwards (defeats the purpose). I’m just a few miles from Lake Ontario and have hauled home sedimentary stones from about 40 yards below the surface and they were still way to soft for sharpening...wah,wah ☹️. Nagura is a must for a natural stone.
Not to disparage this video or the channel, but when do we get the 50 BESS challenge that was made a few videos ago? Low 20's and even teens are possible. 120 is sharp, but on occasion when I have managed 50, there is a very noticeable difference in actual kitchen use. Another frustration of mine is that on various channels I've asked for USB microscope shots of the bevels at various stages, and have received "promises" that remain empty. At least here, Greg openly refused to do such, citing technical issues. There are some channels that have shown microscope shots of bevels, but they don't upload consistently. I do not have a channel, so anyone can tell me to get lost. "Sub-100" is not "a myth", and I'd like to see some videos on how to get there and how to maintain that.
Hello sir, I am not refusing to do anything. My wife and I have been very busy. Her father died, her stepbrother died two weeks before that. It was almost taking us to the brink of divorce. My dog had a $6000 surgery and needed eight weeks in the crate. My wife went away for a little while to be alone. I work all day Five days a week 10 hours a day. I’ve just lost 40 pounds because I go to the gym at night six nights a week. I don’t even get to the gym till sometimes 9 o’clock at night and work out until 1030 just to be back up at 6 AM for cardio fasted. I have to shoot videos and then edit them each night just a little bit to get them ready for Friday. We have to put stuff on social media so that people will see the video. TH-cam is no longer paying us anywhere near what we made. We were only making $300 a month and now we’re making less than 150 with more subscribers and more views. They’re going through a period and they’re not paying as much so I can literally do two haircuts and make more. I have a microscope that works, but the stand broke. The computer is not a laptop so I would have to completely go over to the video and shoot separate footage. That leaves room for doubt. I have not wanted to do that. I don’t mind shooting a video but it takes time and my wife is not always available for the other camera because she’s been out of town. She very much wants to make sure her stepmother is OK since her father died. The woman lost her son and her husband within two weeks. We had Mother’s Day, and now my wife and I are going to Blade’s show. I’m getting ready take my son to Vegas for his 21st birthday. We’ve had plenty of things to keep us busy. This is not my only gig. We’ve had our yard cleared full of trees, and I’ve had to cut the grass because my wife can no longer be in the sun due to cancer on her chest. I appreciate what you want and I want to give it to you but you’re gonna have to wait. We were already shot several episodes in the next thing we shoot will be at the Blade show in two weeks. I know we have one more episode already filmed. I don’t think we have anything filmed after that. We do like to throw in Sharpening. I’m going to get to your request. Please allow us some time.
I will tell you that I’m excited to shoot a video for you and it is very frustrating to get sub 100. I can get someone hundred kind of regularly but to get really low, like in the 50s, that takes a lot of effort. It really takes a lot of effort and a lot of patience. I have gone crazy. Trying to chase these numbers.
@@nadm ---- Sorry to hear about the transitions in spiritual state. Death comes in batches, it seems, in the space of a few years, a lot of living past can be wiped away. Fortunately, there is some truth to the saying that time heals all. Add: I hope things even out for you soon.
@@nadm ---- Same here. It's a lot of concentration and a light touch. The bevel set has to be there. One time I got 90 off a Naniwa 5K superstone (which surprised me), so I thought I'd strop it and get it really sharp ... turned out 120! Then one time I had a knife I had used, never sharper than 100, stropped it, and got 50. It's a delicate thing, apparently, and the lingering question I still have is, "How long will it hold up?" Yet, every time I use a 90 (which isn't toooo hard to get), I remember why sharp is nice. Some commercial sharpeners, in Russia, I think, from the accent) have a jig and wheel setup and show on continuous video, that they regularly get 60-70 timed to four to five minutes. For the microscope, you say "No" and that's fine. Man, "no" is "no"! That doesn't damage my roof! I just get frustrated by guys who smile and say "Next time", and it never comes. Like people who say "Be with you in a minute" ... zzzzzzzzzzzz. I have a laptop and USB and little by little I've been able to piece together what a very small burr looks like, and I use a lot of ink on bevels, still. But I'm beginning to get a picture of what it should look like. Just for trivia, I realized one drawback for just the rudimentary USB magnification: it won't show the thickness of the edge at the apex. I had one guest knife that just would not get sharp (400), no matter how clean the bevel looked. Finally, I got it, that the edge had been so rounded in use (800+, really!), that I had to remove more bevel to actually get the two bevels to meet in an apex. HRC 56-58, so I went back to a 400 to get 160-180, 1K, 4K, and I gave it back at 120, fed up with it, basically! If you ever do find a work-around for the USB, I'd love to see it, to compare to what I have. A lot of guys have laptops and if you don't have to upload video or photos, a USB scope is maybe $50 bucks. But don't sweat it. I'm a straight answer type. Not real popular, but hey.
At least you weren’t rude about the God thing. For those of us who believe in God, we believe that the planet was made by him and so that’s where the God thing comes from. If you’re not a believer, then you just know that mother nature made it either way, it’s been around for quite a while.
I was looking for this rabbit hole! And you didn’t disappointed me. 🥰
Nice Overview Greg. It is really hard to assign grit as you are already finding! Often, they will have one feeling on the blade edge that is analogous to one grit and polish at a different grit level. All of these can be manipulated with slurry density, water concentration, and surface conditioning as I often cover in my videos.
I agree it as well is very important to get it from a reputable vendor who can do proper testing before you get the stones. I keep a list around, but I am sure it is not exhaustive.
I would also heavily consider sealing up some of those stones!
Trying to be humorous, nor sarcastic: what is the grit on that countertop Greg has in his house🤣? That's a whopper of a stone .... Would it not be possible to sharpen on some leftover granite?
What does seal them. Do you think what I’m gonna use is OK or do you recommend me buying a locker? And if so, could you please recommend one with the link?
I’m sure my wife would kill me. If I did it on the countertop in there is no leftover granite to use.
Would you recommend to ask the vendor to seal the natural stones for you when buying?
@@MrLoam910 I mean, you can ask. I don't know who does it. I know Burnell Cuttery sells them that way. I don't know what the price difference would be but I don't think it's ever gonna be a bad idea to ask.
Fantastic video Gregg, love the honest approach to this deep abyss of a rabbit hole and one thing is for sure, we all start from somewhere 🙌
That means a lot to me coming from you. I was most worried about this video. I'm anxious to move forward, but very slowly incautiously. God bless.
@@nadm completely understand and I’ll happily share any info that i currently have so just ask away whenever ✌🏼
Thanks so much for taking the time and making the effort for all of us who have wondered about these artifacts.
Seems like a completely different journey for me as I have been satisfied with “just sharp”!
Maybe when I start purchasing katanas, I’ll move in this direction.
Enjoyable, and for sure, not a dull moment!😎
Thank you
Amazing video, Greg! Can't get any clearer than this
Just into JNS and found your video
Excellent work, as usual. I recently descended down this hole and found myself with a much better understanding of sharpening.
Doing is half of the battle and you did fantastic.
Thank you for that
Very nice sir. I've been sharpening straight razors off and on for 9 years now and I have 3 JNATS. I have a 6 by 2 inch Shobudani Aswedo (pronounced "oz way do" and is a finisher), An 8 by 3 inch Ozuku Mizu Asagi (Level 5 finisher) and I recently got lucky and picked up a Nakayama Aswedo which is roughly around the same size as a 6 by 2 stone. They were by no means cheap at all. Also the higher the number of hardness, the slower cutting speed it has too. Specifically with straight razors. My Nakayama Aswedo is decent fast with my Shobudani Aswedo in the middle and My Ozuku Mizu Asagi is the slowest of the 3. I could do 40 x strokes on the Nakayama while it could take 80 on my Ozuku and only 60 on my Shobudani.
I hone razors professionally, and straight razors guys are really on the money when it comes to JNS, I use a Nakayama 5+ finisher, amazing stones, no other natural can get close to Japanese stones.
Thanks Greg and Michelle. Great overview. And thanks for putting the names on the screen!
I'm trying brother. I'm trying. You're welcome.
Thank you for making this video and sharing this information Greg! 🙏
Buddy, and thanks for coming. It’s been interesting to see you grow as well.
Wanto when you're gonna go down the rabbit hole with this jnat 😂😂😂😂
@@bidin5253 Can't afford to go inside
Mahalo for all the information brother Greg 🤙💥
Thank you
Wonderful video. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for watching. We really appreciate your support. Please subscribe if you have not.
The discussion about grits ... right on point about setting bevels. I learned to not be afraid to go down-grit, even if that means you have to re-polish. The thing about natural stones that jumps out at me is that - it would seem that - as the stone wears away, you get different surfaces? The stone itself is layered, different strata, different imperfections. The other thing that jumps out at me in broad terms is the hobby "rabbit hole". I'm thinking about getting a new range/ oven and I haven't a clue about what's good or not. Knives and stones I can at least talk about, but ranges ...🤣? Spend $2,000 total on knives and stones and 50 BESS then wreck the food on a cruddy range? Yeah, of course! Induction? Glass top? Smart? Which mine do you get your natural range from, and from which level, or is a synthetic range better? Are there websites that compare ranges (or are those too bulky to set up?). Then there's food and meal planning and grass-fed or corn-fed, free-range or pastured, fertilized or organic, frozen or fresh, pesticided or buggy, pizza at a restaurant or take-out or delivered ... so complicated.
Lol, I hear you. Grass fed and gas are the answers are looking for, lol!
@@nadm 100% this
The rest of the ones you don't love are great for traditional 3 layer knives . Because they make the soft steel dark and simultaneously sharpen the harder steel
Man, I really appreciate your compliment and coming here and I'm reading all of your comments and just appreciate it and now I just need to do the time and get the education and experience
Nice work mate. You tried any metallic bonded CBN yet? I'm in love with it, especially in the lower grits.
When I buy natural stones lacquered my stones, I taped them off and the lacquer had a reaction and melted the tape not much happened just left some un-dryable lacquer on the surface I had to scape off, I found out the clear gorilla tape doesn’t melt. I changed make so much of a difference
Thank you very much!!
I have a Nakayama Koppa. I used it today to finish and polish B#2.
Excellent!
Ya did well Greg. It is a humbling subject and everything I know is consistent with your advise. I have three main stones in my jnat collection and a bunch of naguras that give some flexibility to how each stone can be used. Thanks for making this video.
Thank you for your support. I really appreciate your comment.
The color is similar to the sharpening stone from Indonesia that I sell😊
Well, we're going to see
@@nadm let us work together
Nice overview. An excellent TH-cam reference is Japanese Natural Whetstones (JNATS), the go-to guy for these whetstones. He recommends, and tutorials lacquer application. These whetstones are intimidating, and you can go wrong buying from unfamiliar online sources, but good sellers are out there. Follow JNATS further, the “romance” and “tradition” is rewarding. Great topic; dive deeper, don’t apologize.
We’re gonna keep going. I just don’t want to upset those who are aficionados. I also don’t want to send people down the wrong path. Thank you for your kind words and your support.
@@nadm …Jeopardy doesn’t penalize anyone for misspelling, we can’t be found guilty for mangling Japanese pronunciation from unfamiliarity, not malice. I’ve only become intrigued with JNAT for a couple years, no doubt make a hash of identifying stones, but find the geological gifts fascinating. Onward…and again…unapologetically. 👍
Thanks for the information, I have a question. Can you use these natural stones on super steels like com s30v and up to rex 121?
Gentle comments :)
Another great video Greg, Given your great knife collection I have been looking forward to seeing your JNAT collection. I think you started it off very well with the Rabbit Hole analogy. Sadly in my case it is more like a Bear Cave at this point :(
My advice to new users is the following:
0) Greg often uses the term luxury item, when he describes something as very nice to have vs. a need to have. JNATs are luxury item and you are not missing out if you do not own one.
1) Go for finishing stones as I do not believe that JNATs have much value as sharpeners and intermediate stones, and they are slower than synthetics.
2) If you experiment with a lot of polishing techniques, to bring out the different steel patterns, they are much easier to use than synthetics. If that is the case then perhaps an intermediate JNAT is in order.
3) When it comes to your final finisher, most JNATs provide a much better feel and feedback than synthetics. Also if you hate polishers that load up, than a JNAT can be a great choice.
4) They provide super comfortable edges for straight razors.
5) Talk to your seller and let them know what you are trying to do with the stone. Let's say that your friend has a stone you like, you can buy a stone from the same seller from the same mine, with the same name, from the same strata and the same color etc. and they can be two completely different stones. Its like taking a shovel full of rocks from your backyard...you never know what you are going to get till you use it.
6) There is a lot of talk in the JNAT community that revolves around JNAT edges staying sharper longer because the stones have multiple levels of grit (even though there is no such thing as grit rating for JNATs) in the stone that also gets finer during your sharpening session. This is great for polishing and straight razors, but I think the idea of significantly longer lasting edges is mumbo jumbo. Way too much pseudo science is used to try and prove JNAT edge longevity superiority. Besides, if you are into sharpening and you go all the way to JNATs...then you probably love to sharpen, so sharpening your knives when they get dull is a fun task, made even more fun when you try a JNAT finisher
7). Buy one, learn its characteristics and master it before you buy another. As someone who has too many JNATs, trust me when I tell you, if you have a finisher that puts on a good edge, buying a 2nd, 3rd, 4th is not going to transform your sharpness.
8) Enjoy the experience, the feel of the stone, the smell (they can have wonderful earthy, salt water smells), the color (some are absolutely gorgeous, I have fallen victim to this for sure), the fact that you are sharpening your knife on a multi-million year old rock made out of fossilized creatures and dust.
9) Nobody is ever a master of all stones and the louder they speak, the more likely they are just posers (not speaking about you Greg you were right on point). All you can hope to be is a master of your own stones. Now that I look into my own words I may have fallen into my own trap...I sound like a poser.
10) Never spend your lunch money on a JNAT. Scratch that, if you can afford that kind of money for lunch you can afford a JNAT :)
In any case I hope this is useful.
On another note, I was in DC picking up my son college and I certainly stopped by to see Ryan. He convinced me to come hang at Blade show. I am booked for Friday and Saturday and will likely see the booth of you. He knows me as Brooke and if you want to reach out to me feel free to ping him for my details. Otherwise I am not on facebook, twitter, tickety toc...All the best!
My wife and I will be at the Blade show. Ryan knows how to find me. We will be getting up with Tara from Perfect, Ave, Cutlery, and with Zach from Tokushu knife. We’re gonna go have dinner. Please come find me. I agree with the stuff you’re saying. People really do want to get into this but you don’t need to do it. It is an exotic thing and it is nice but it is very expensive and it’s easy to get discouraged.
This was fascinating. Came up in my feed. To me, sharpening is a means to an end. Not a hobby. As such, this was very interesting, as I know little about freehand work and the stones.
Thanks so much.
You're welcome! Thank you for checking us out. We appreciate you more than you know.
This channel is not only Informative... It is Funny To !
You're very nice and I'm glad we can entertain you.
@@nadm I am glad I discovered your channel. This is the first video I watched I will dig in your archive and watch them all ! Greetings from the Netherlands !
@@mijzelfmaardanik greetings from America and thank you for finding us and thank you for your support. We literally use your love as our currency. I’m glad that this went well cause I was very nervous. We have an expensive archive. We do sharpening tips as well as interviews along with on boxings. We have many more titles to come because we have had many ideas. We’re going to Blade show in a couple of weeks.
@@nadm The Netherlands is small, we only have one blade show a year. I am looking forward for your excursion at the blade show over there so I can enjoy it to.
you did wonderful bro keep it up.. dont be ashamed even japanese people like myself appreciate it... I am half japanese
Greg, my friend. You are the man, great job trying to pronounce the names, some of them were butchered, some of them were 100% on point. When the video started I started biting my nails waiting for you to get to the Maroyama Tamagoiro Suita Sunashi, what beauty.
I'm very sorry to hear about your recent misfortunes in life from reading that other comment, you're doing all you can do and more, and you look a lot healthier in the face (I noticed your weight loss in the neck area especially, good job man)
21st birthday in Vegas? Your son is very lucky to have you dude. Wishing you better luck and hoping your dog heals up real good, wife gets into remission and you guys have a great time at Blade Show, you're wonderful people and this is definitely my favorite knife channel.
PS: Please don't even answer guys like that Dave Smith dude, we have Reddit and Kitchen Knife Forums for BESS tests and information all over the internet, you don't need to start using a microscope and all that, (I have one and it doesn't help you sharpen, it just lets you see the edge much better in a TINY section of the blade, a microscope inspection of the whole blade road would take longer then a sharpening session...) It's not YOUR responsibility to provide him specifically requested content for free, and even after your heartbreaking explanation he has the balls to basically repeat his nonsensical demands. Screw that. You do you man, gl in the gym tomorrow.
Thank you for that. That’s amazing. Just for the record, so you don’t worry, my wife’s father passed away from cancer. My wife is good. She doesn’t have any cancer. She’s just not well since her dad died. She’s just getting over the fact that her dad and her stepbrother died within two weeks. We lost her ex-husband in November and she has her kids by herself. Their dad was a good dad. He joined us for a lot of things and his presence is missed. Your words are very kind and amazing. Thank you for being concerned and taking the time. People don’t understand how much your time is a gift. Thank you for giving me your time. Onward and upward. We’re going to be healthier and we’re going to keep going. God bless! I’ll try to do better. Any help you have been learning to pronounce the Japanese words would be amazing. Somebody tried to help once and I can’t find the post but there’s certain rules on pronouncing vowels. God bless.
@@nadm
The finger stone thickness is smaller than 0.3 mms. So really thin and flexible.
My gosh this is on the same level as to how much of an umbrella term the word “katana” is. It just like googling something and then going to what people also ask it just goes deeper and deeper. Also the thing about the fake stamps resonates with me as someone who’s has extensive research in Japanese weapons, martial arts, etc. natural stones are not the only ones that get hit with fake signatures as katana can be as well. someone who isn’t a very popular smith or merchant could put the name is a famous smith on the nakago (tang) and it would sell for more money to someone who isn’t very educated on this, it could also be used as marketing sabotage for competing smiths/ merchants/craftsman.
Rabbit hole. That's all you can even say it's just so much.
@@nadm exactly 😂😂😂
Nice video Greg. You’ve done great! Big shout out to the my friends who added to this video!
Thank you your help as well
@@nadm your welcome and any time buddy
thank you very much sir
Try especially with 3 lqyer knife that you go length wise to create better polish instead of on a 45 or angle. Especially in these knives in later stage of polish ect
I'm gonna be taking you up on this after the holidays
I've avoided those due to price. They also differ quite a lot and at the prices larger stones go for, I'd like to try it out (that is almost never possible). Getting to know all the mines and types of stones to know reliably what to expect is not that easy either.
I have some european naturals though (mostly Welsh). Some of them I like, some are not that good. (I'm not talking about well known stones like coticule or belgian blue). I'd love a 3x8" sized coticule but cannot justify the amount of money. The fact I hate irregular shaped stones or small like 2" wide ones makes those cost more but I just hate nothing short of "full size".
I think slurry management is quite important for the few naturals I have. Sometimes slurry from a suitable nagura can really change the character of some synthetics too.
OK well sad. I’ll have to look into the European stones that you mentioned.
@@nadm There used to be at least some seller in eBay selling all kinds of Welsh slats, mostly in 8-13k range. Some of them are quite nice finishers, some just not that much.
For coarser grits none of the few tries have been a hit in naturals. But I value speed in those anyways and have plenty of good synthetics.
Belgian blue and coticule are of course the well known europeans that everyone knows of. I a kind of like both of those but could afford a large one only as the cheaper blue that really lacks the power coticule has. I guess there is a reason wjhy it is cheaper. :D
IT's not pressure that is holding the grains. They are cemented in various ways.
I'm not talking about what was sealed by the person after they got the stone, but the initial rock is formed by pressure
@@nadm I don't think that is what he means; there are natural cements that hold the grains together. The ones you have are redish/tanish/brownish because of iron oxides in between the sand grains; those iron oxides form a natural cement. Sandstones are all cemented by something, the 3 dominant materials are iron ochers like in yours, silicon precipitates in quartzites, and lime precipitates in calcareous sandstones. The second category of natural stones are the metamorphic materials--slate, schist and novaculites. In these both the starting material (the sand or silt + whatever its cement was) has been partially melted and recrystallized, and this crystal growth holds them together. A good example of this is the belgian hone, where garnets formed in situ during the metamorphic process, so what originally was just a mud slurry became natural garnet paper! Lastly, some materials have silt+cement embedding the grit grains; where you have a larger particular embedded in a smaller silty or muck material; then the entire mass became cemented together with one of the above mentioned 3 cementsl Graywacke is a very large grained example of this. These materials tend to be from poorly sorted original deposits and so are not often seen as fine polishing whetstones, but there are examples of materials used for axe stones and the like that have extra earthy bits in the slurry...Think about the Little House on the Prairie context of have a dull axe, find a handy rock to make it less bad! You will see a lot of these sorts of "stones of opportunity" show up in historic society museums, and if you look at really old homesteads the front porch step almost always has an axe-sharpening depression in its corner!
The crow pattern. Karasu. Beautiful.
And wait until you get into the Mikawa nagura options on those harder polishing stones - Botan, tenjyou , mejira, the silky Koma and finally, of course, the Tomo (same as primary stone)
It’s a deep deep rabbit hole lol
Mikawa nagura is one that I do have and you definitely saw it in the lineup. I have not seen some of the ones you have said, but I do use them regularly.
@@nadm yes I saw yours. Beautiful!
I have never used the Mikawa bench stones but the smaller nagura/slurry/correcting stones were integral to my razor honing (I don’t shave anymore- ZZ Top beard for years) 😂. They all come from the Mikawa mine. A very special collection of strata with creamy, silky feels
On very hard 4.5-5 JNATs they really come in handy for the slurry progression. Those I mentioned are the ‘standard’ (tho as you know, nothing is standard, of course) recommended progression for the razor sharpening crowd. Koma Nagura being the most prized (and $$)
I own several beautiful koppa stones- all very hard and meant for razors (nakayama kiita kan, okudo shiro suita, takashema Karasu and an Ozuko asagi) each so unique and each a puzzle to figure out!
I invested in several of the mikawa nagura stones and follow those up w my tomo for each. It’s truly an art and I don’t think I will ever come close to mastering it. But I do so enjoy the rabbit hole!
Keep on cranking out your wonderful videos! I enjoy them! And enjoy the journey further into JNATs I am in the market for a larger full size softer stone to start using for my kitchen knives- I mostly use naniwas or Arkansas for those now.
Such a great hobby. 👍
Also look for the ones with the Asano stamps. All top grade and amazing quality!
@@joshuarosenblatt thank you for your well wishing. We’re gonna have to cut back our videos in the new year. There’s been a drought on TH-cam. People are not advertising. We used to make a little bit of money but now we make less than half of what we used to make, even though we have more views and more subscribers. We’re gonna cut it back for a while until the economy picks up. Right now we’re still try to put it out every week but in the new year we’re probably gonna have to cut back to once a month.
@@nadm well sorry to hear that but look forward to the videos you DO make.
Imagine having to walk on eggshells talking about rock not to offend a bunch of basement dwelling samurais
I was hot and heavy to get into J-nat Stones a few years ago, but the uncertainty of what you were getting, as well as the prices dissuaded me. The logical conclusion I came to is that it makes sense only to buy the final natural stone you use in your progression. It doesn’t make sense to me to buy coarser grade stones when you’re still going through a progression. The top end $$$$ polishing stones are apparently amazing. Why people bother is because they still leave behind a little bit of “tooth” that helps bite into the product. There are a lot of charlatans going on because of the potential $$ involved. Mr Imanishi IS one of the highly trusted dealers. Because of the “tooth” effect you would NOT want to be stropping afterwards (defeats the purpose). I’m just a few miles from Lake Ontario and have hauled home sedimentary stones from about 40 yards below the surface and they were still way to soft for sharpening...wah,wah ☹️. Nagura is a must for a natural stone.
Thank you
On "tooth", do you want to saw, or slice?
Microscopic “teeth”. I find a super highly polished and stropped edge can occasionally want to slide off the surface of softer produce.
@@trappenweisseguy27 I agree that’s why I said that the teeth are helpful in fatty meats and the skin of a tomato
Not to disparage this video or the channel, but when do we get the 50 BESS challenge that was made a few videos ago? Low 20's and even teens are possible. 120 is sharp, but on occasion when I have managed 50, there is a very noticeable difference in actual kitchen use. Another frustration of mine is that on various channels I've asked for USB microscope shots of the bevels at various stages, and have received "promises" that remain empty. At least here, Greg openly refused to do such, citing technical issues. There are some channels that have shown microscope shots of bevels, but they don't upload consistently. I do not have a channel, so anyone can tell me to get lost. "Sub-100" is not "a myth", and I'd like to see some videos on how to get there and how to maintain that.
Hello sir, I am not refusing to do anything. My wife and I have been very busy. Her father died, her stepbrother died two weeks before that. It was almost taking us to the brink of divorce. My dog had a $6000 surgery and needed eight weeks in the crate. My wife went away for a little while to be alone. I work all day Five days a week 10 hours a day. I’ve just lost 40 pounds because I go to the gym at night six nights a week. I don’t even get to the gym till sometimes 9 o’clock at night and work out until 1030 just to be back up at 6 AM for cardio fasted. I have to shoot videos and then edit them each night just a little bit to get them ready for Friday. We have to put stuff on social media so that people will see the video. TH-cam is no longer paying us anywhere near what we made. We were only making $300 a month and now we’re making less than 150 with more subscribers and more views. They’re going through a period and they’re not paying as much so I can literally do two haircuts and make more. I have a microscope that works, but the stand broke. The computer is not a laptop so I would have to completely go over to the video and shoot separate footage. That leaves room for doubt. I have not wanted to do that. I don’t mind shooting a video but it takes time and my wife is not always available for the other camera because she’s been out of town. She very much wants to make sure her stepmother is OK since her father died. The woman lost her son and her husband within two weeks. We had Mother’s Day, and now my wife and I are going to Blade’s show. I’m getting ready take my son to Vegas for his 21st birthday. We’ve had plenty of things to keep us busy. This is not my only gig. We’ve had our yard cleared full of trees, and I’ve had to cut the grass because my wife can no longer be in the sun due to cancer on her chest. I appreciate what you want and I want to give it to you but you’re gonna have to wait. We were already shot several episodes in the next thing we shoot will be at the Blade show in two weeks. I know we have one more episode already filmed. I don’t think we have anything filmed after that. We do like to throw in Sharpening. I’m going to get to your request. Please allow us some time.
I will tell you that I’m excited to shoot a video for you and it is very frustrating to get sub 100. I can get someone hundred kind of regularly but to get really low, like in the 50s, that takes a lot of effort. It really takes a lot of effort and a lot of patience. I have gone crazy. Trying to chase these numbers.
@@nadm ---- Sorry to hear about the transitions in spiritual state. Death comes in batches, it seems, in the space of a few years, a lot of living past can be wiped away. Fortunately, there is some truth to the saying that time heals all. Add: I hope things even out for you soon.
@@nadm ---- Same here. It's a lot of concentration and a light touch. The bevel set has to be there. One time I got 90 off a Naniwa 5K superstone (which surprised me), so I thought I'd strop it and get it really sharp ... turned out 120! Then one time I had a knife I had used, never sharper than 100, stropped it, and got 50. It's a delicate thing, apparently, and the lingering question I still have is, "How long will it hold up?" Yet, every time I use a 90 (which isn't toooo hard to get), I remember why sharp is nice. Some commercial sharpeners, in Russia, I think, from the accent) have a jig and wheel setup and show on continuous video, that they regularly get 60-70 timed to four to five minutes.
For the microscope, you say "No" and that's fine. Man, "no" is "no"! That doesn't damage my roof! I just get frustrated by guys who smile and say "Next time", and it never comes. Like people who say "Be with you in a minute" ... zzzzzzzzzzzz.
I have a laptop and USB and little by little I've been able to piece together what a very small burr looks like, and I use a lot of ink on bevels, still. But I'm beginning to get a picture of what it should look like. Just for trivia, I realized one drawback for just the rudimentary USB magnification: it won't show the thickness of the edge at the apex. I had one guest knife that just would not get sharp (400), no matter how clean the bevel looked. Finally, I got it, that the edge had been so rounded in use (800+, really!), that I had to remove more bevel to actually get the two bevels to meet in an apex. HRC 56-58, so I went back to a 400 to get 160-180, 1K, 4K, and I gave it back at 120, fed up with it, basically! If you ever do find a work-around for the USB, I'd love to see it, to compare to what I have. A lot of guys have laptops and if you don't have to upload video or photos, a USB scope is maybe $50 bucks. But don't sweat it. I'm a straight answer type. Not real popular, but hey.
Aloha Greg
Aloha, sir
Eh, it could be worse. It could be 78 rpm records. What's that? 50 natural stones isn't normal?
Lol
That's all geology is, time and pressure... Morgan Freeman
lol
Nice Video but you have to get yourself a real urushu lacure
Given the investment some kind of sealer is in order, but there are also some good and less toxic alternatives to classical sealing methods.
You can find a link of something you really want me to try the police post it for me I would appreciate it very much
Ask you as well to provide a link if you’ve got something you want me to use other than what I had posted
These stones are millions of years old... Not sure where the God stuff came in😀
At least you weren’t rude about the God thing. For those of us who believe in God, we believe that the planet was made by him and so that’s where the God thing comes from. If you’re not a believer, then you just know that mother nature made it either way, it’s been around for quite a while.