It’s quite interesting. A year and a half ago I reached out to dancing rabbit to arrange visiting them because we were seriously looking for a new home to raise our children in. I was responded with a high camping fee or a extremely high priced room to stay in. Even though the response was kind the community didn’t at all seem to have interest in us visiting and accommodating us unless we had the high prices to dish out. Felt like we were a commodity rather than desired members that could help the community grow.
Hmm. Well, actually for the 1-2 week visitor program we offer, you'd be hard pressed to find a cheaper experience anywhere. Do you know of one? You get camping and food for the week (3 meals a day) paid for and a daily schedule of workshops, orientation, and other great educational experiences from very knowledgeable people. I've found comparable experiences in the states to cost thousands of dollars a week. There are also scholarships available for people who can't afford the whole price. I'm curious if you actually wanted to visit during a structured week program or not and whether you were told about the scholarships. I've never heard of a high camping fee being imposed on anyone (because it's included in the visitor experience price) and don't know what you'd consider high. There are private places to rent but those prices are variable and set by the owners. They are usually far cheaper than any airbnb you'd find, except the Mercantile, which offers all the amenities of a hotel, plus really good food. We used to operate our visitor program at a loss, but that means we community members were paying so other people could have a great experience with no guarantee they would actually live at DR. A lot of people come just to see it and aren't serious about living there, though we give priority to those who are serious about moving to DR. We think we offer a great experience and the people that go through it by and large say it changes their lives. We are not making a profit, and things cost money. Also people at DR are scraping by financially and can't afford to work for free for people who have much greater access to economic centers. I just went to the Florida Earthskills Gathering, which is very much a DIY experience of people doing things very simply without infrastructure, with everyone pitching in, camping in a field, porta potties, no buildings, and a very basic and limited breakfast and dinner provided, classes taught by attendees and most of them not free. For 4 days it costs $225-425. I'm sorry you felt it was financially impossible. I don't understand how you could have come away with that impression unless you were wanting to visit outside a designated visitor session, which we don't recommend people interested in moving to DR do.
The DR visitor program is $700 for an adult for 2 weeks, $200 for a child up to 17 years old, and it includes all those things I mentioned in the previous comment, campsite, food, and educational workshops and presentations. I know everyone has differing finances and with kids there are added costs in addition to paying for adults. There are $620 in scholarships available for each visitor session as well.
Thank you for the extra information. It was outside of the two week time. For our family it would of cost $2000 and next year it would cost $2200 for 2 weeks. That’s not a community that is looking for not privileged members seriously. I was not aware of scholarships but with even the scholarship grants those prices are priced for people who desire a retreat experience not a visit for a potential home location. I completely understand that this property is far away from resources to make money but maybe if this community were to grow to more than just a educational retreat center a slightly different approach should be taken to life and philosophy in the community.
@@clyubove Well, we are not set up for visitors to stay outside the visitor session, unless someone will host you. But still, you won't get the full experience of DR and everyone who wants to live at DR has to go through the visitor program because this is the only way to ensure that people are prepared and know what to expect. We also don't have a huge joining fee like some communities, which actually makes us much more accessible to people without a lot of money. You can become a member and build a house without paying $10K that you won't get back. It costs nothing but the rental of the land. If you are expecting costs less than that, I'm not sure where you would find them. This is one of the things that attracted me to DR and made it financially feasible for me. It would be interesting to know your situation and what your expectations are of DR.
What would be the cost for renting the land?... for our family it would cost $2200 + price to build home +rental of land if we were offered a spot? How many people in the community are full timers?
When we lived on the rural Oregon Coast, the nights were SO DARK and the stars so bright. The only sounds were wildlife and the ocean. I love my life in the city and what that has provided for our kids and for my partner in terms of a career, but I miss the access to land, and I miss the solitude and connection with nature: the light pollution is intense, and there is constant noise from the city buses, the neighbor's AC, the highway....they're omnipresent.
It would be great to see an update on this video! I don't see many St. Pete updates online. I'm also deeply interested in Dancing Rabbit. I do wonder about population growth there. It seems there's a desire to grow to a 150-200 person village, but growth seems stagnant year after year. Obviously, location affects this. Overall, though, DR looks wonderful! Would love to see it grow and continue to thrive.
The St Pete Ecovillage is no more, unfortunately. They couldn't buy one of the properties in between the blue house and the gardens and it made it difficult to set up the village on the planned lots. They did buy a lot of properties in that neighborhood, but then the project fell apart and they are now just being sold for development unfortunately. The gardens are still there, but I don't know their fate. DR does plan to grow. There are a number of limiting factors to why we haven't grown. Economic conditions contribute to ebbs and flows. We've had a few major challenges in the last few years, one being covid. Location is also a factor. For the most part, I'd say things are always improving. I'd love to see it grow too. We have someone on our board that is interested in the prospect of building larger scale housing options, so planned developments with more smaller apartments or condos. This could make it easier for people to move to DR and not have to build a place. It could also appeal to some who would rather live in a more conventional building.
@@HardcoreSustainable That's too bad about St Pete, but comforting to see DR's continued efforts to thrive in spite of challenges. The larger-scale building prospect is intriguing. I can see the growth-promoting potential, though it'd likely require leniancy around building materials? Would be hard to build with reclaimed sources exclusively. Maybe a worthwhile trade-off when done in a limited capacity? Idk. Thanks, Dan, for creating the content you do. I've been researching DR for awhile now and your channel has been invaluable. I plan to visit for two weeks during next visitor season and would love to try some of your wine!
Thank you! Valuable insights. I'm so happy I've gotten to visit alternative communities such as Twin Oaks and Earthaven and some in Oregon for example and do hope to visit these two and more as well. Year-round growing season vs. snowy winter and various building code restrictions etc. are definitely interesting to compare and consider.
good video man, highlighting the differences.. ..strengths & weaknesses. i’m in Europe and i’m looking for a connection in order to live in a similar approach. Here, you express the long ‘battle’ of rural vs urban....of scale vs density,... of slow growth vs rapid growth. Achieving sth in between is ideal....but. REALLY hard. cheers from Portugal ;)
Having seen many communities in the country fold because they needed city amenities, and many city communities fold because they felt the city draining them, I've often thought that communities should come in marriages--one community in the country and a closely interdependent one in the nearest city, owning between them at least one biodiesel truck to haul stuff to and fro. There's definitely city folks and country folks, but few of either want to spend all of their time in one or the other. In two married communities (Not just members of the same umbrella group, but two groups joined in a loving bond that creates a familial connection) anybody in the country who has a medical need or other business in town, or who just wants to do some shopping, attend a meeting, or have a night on the town, would have a place to stay in the city at need, while anybody in the country who needs to detox from the city or reconnect with the land can have a place in the country at need. People in the cities can scavenge good junk and send it to the country, and people who make or grow wares in the country can send them to the city to sell. Just as a husband and wife have differences but get along, communities also could have compatible differences and still love each other and get symbiotic with each other. What do you think?
I've thought of the same thing. My idea was to start a Dancing Rabbit South in Florida, so people could migrate there for the winter to escape the cold and not have to burn wood to keep warm. And it could be closer to city amenities. It definitely makes sense and this is why I go to St Pete in the winter.
Hi Dan, just watched your video. Thanks for the comparison. I live in Central FL and plan on visiting the St. Pete location soon. I have been researching eco villages for about 5 years now and am amazed at how many are popping up just in the past 2 years. I think people see the writing on the wall about the need for self-sustainability. Are you familiar with Penny Kenny? She is a Michigan native and author. She wrote a book that I highly recommend called Robes which speaks about our future. I don't want to get into the doom and gloom aspect of the book, but the message throughout was that growing your own food and having access to clean off the grid drinking water is key for our future survival. I would love for our family of three to be a part of your community, but the cold would be a little tough. ♡
Thanks for the comment Helena. I'm not familiar with Penny Kenny but I'll check her out. I hope there is more of a movement towards sustainability. You wouldn't know it looking at our current government, but most of them got their power by the fuel of the ultrarich and by dirty political tricks. It takes people at the grassroots to create real change. Good luck in your search for a cool ecovillage.
Hardcore Sustainable You are so right about the need for grassroots change. Honestly, I have checked out from the current political circus. It's the same people behind the scenes regardless of who we have in office. Although, the current administration should make a lot of people nervous. We probably won't end up in an ecovillage. My husband wants to try homesteading first. We've got 5 acres to work with in a rural area of northern FL, which has some of the most beautiful cold springs in walking distance from the home. Our plan is to plant fruit and nut trees this year in hopes that they will start bearing fruit in 5 years when we move up there. I would prefer an ecovillage, because I think community is important, but my husband thinks that it might be too taxing on our introverted personalities. ;) Penny Kelly did some interviews recently with Regina Meredith that are available in TH-cam. I will find the first one and post it for you. ;)
EcoVillages/CoHousing Communities are a great way to fight high rent, mortgages, and lack of connection. I've been investigating ownership models and I think that's the major hinderance to ecovillage/cohousing development.
Forest Gaia I researched cost a few years ago, and it was out of reach for a lot of people that could really benefit from it. Some intentional communities also have very strict rules and age requirements, which really hampers one's ability to find a community that is welcoming and right for you. The research that Dan Buettner did on the Blue Zones, shows that communities that mirror eco villages/intentional communities, have the longest living people on the planet. The key is having multigenerational communities that grow a lot of their own food, where members are valued and supported, and where everyone chips in, young and old, to keep the community thriving. With the huge amount of baby boomers reaching sunset age, and the rise of special needs individuals (autism), we need these kind of communities where everyone can chip in to help with care, rather than housing these individuals in nursing or group homes. I have worked in both, and have no desire to have a loved one or myself end up in either.
Very enlightening. Thank you. I have been following along with D.R. for years and it sounds interesting. Would like to tour one day. I love the idea of learning about natural building and doing it myself one day. I would love to have an acre or two one day also, but it is so expensive to do so.
Hi Dan, I was just wondering what it means to be a special person to live in community. I know this is a hard question and you have lived in community for a long time. Can you share what attributes you already had or have developed to live in community? It seems both DR and St.Pete Ecovillage have people that do well and others that don't. Are you willing to share what those characteristics are with us?
Hi. This is random, but I lived at both Arcosanti, and Lost Valley, and knew several people from DR. To answer your question from my experience I found in these places one of the main thing that makes people not do well is primarily about adaptability, tolerance, and ability to plan. Adaptability and tolerance are hard because many people move to communities to get a specific lifestyle. They want to be vegetarians, they want to practice a certain belief, etc. These people can often get very upset when others don't follow those same beliefs. The planning part because people who don't plan tend to want things NOW, and if you don't have those things they assume its because your doing that to hurt them, and so they become spiteful against you.
Does this area have good soil historically or something? We have rolling hills and conventional agriculture has run our land into the ground, so to speak. When you have highly erodible land and farmers have been tilling the soil bare every year to grow the same crops over and over with little attention to soil health, you get horrible soil. What might have at one time been a few feet of topsoil is down to 0-10 inches. Farmers combat the poor soil health by dumping fertilizer and pesticides on their crops, and only growing corn and soybeans, which have been bred to be able to produce in poor soils with the use of chemicals. If there are spots with good soil, they are only living off the the bank of history before conventional agriculture started destroying them. A lot of our county is eligible for the CRP program because it is highly erodible, which is a sign of its low quality.
I would say that St Pete's echo village is probably the absolute best and has the most potential and it's because whoever came up with the whole idea of putting an echo village in a place where it couldn't thrive and really didn't plan it out properly or even kick-start it the way that they should have which by the way you have Kickstarter and GoFundMe to get the community meaning all people who believe in this type of living to back you guys if you want it to be able to deploy systems that will help you to grow food all year long and to even you know have the ability to be able to put up some Airbnb so people can have the experience and not be asking for such an exorbitant amount of money for people to come for a week or two weeks and I'm not even sure what's included in that package at dancing rabbit because I was completely turned off by the questionnaires they're looking to make decisions based on what commodities skills and even how they're going to be earning money and I don't really know that that's any of their business if you're part of a community you don't start asking people questions about money and you definitely don't want to talk politics or religion it's just kind of a taboo. For me dancing rabbit has nothing to offer the climate is bad you can't grow food they don't have systems in place it wasn't well thought of there's actually nowhere for people to have the experience no one has even taken the time to build accommodations for people who want to have that experience for a fee whether it's an Airbnb or something that is just contracted through dancing rabbit but there are people like me who are visionaries and we can come up with great ideas but if there's all these hindrances because things were poorly planned and executed well you know it sounds to me like it was a bad idea from the get-go someone tried to fit a square in a circle peg and now they're feeling kind of silly about it and they're trying to reach out to people to get them to get on board with an idea that was bad from the jump. I'll tell you what when and if I ever have the resources I'll get all my ducks in a row and then launch it I wouldn't just move to a barren land and expect people to jump on board and help me build paradise but charge them $800 for two-week visit and not include anything expecting people to pay for their accommodations which as you said there's nothing really nearby so that means they'd really be forced to stay there and pay someone either 9 to like $50 whatever it was on the website for 2 weeks and I'm sure that food's not included either and as you've said you can't even grow the food there not really. Now who wants to take part in that. The interview process for even just allowing someone to come and visit is completely polar to the cry for help to build community because this particular community is not interested in outsiders they're not interested in anyone coming in and contributing because they want to control everything and so right there that's a big concern for me cuz I actually looked at it I'm in a situation where I live in my car for three years now and it wasn't my choice originally but as time went on I realized that I just wasn't going to be able to try to squeeze myself back into society and be okay with that because society is very sick and doesn't offer me anything but a cyclic debt it's not something that I'm looking for at 51 years of age after having such a traumatic event happen that put me in that position. And I stayed because I had a lot of hindrances around earning money and I'm in a very well actually overpopulated area people just are not receptive or nice unfortunately very aggressive and there's a lot of reasons why that is the case. so for me being in nature and being around like-minded individuals would be really nice especially living in a community where we all felt similarly but the focus shouldn't be on money and that's where it is and the reason for that is because it's not a thriving community and no one can get excited about that. It is a complete fail and I think it's time for the people who are running the show there to understand that you might have very little to offer but no reason to stay
Good video Dan, appreciate the perspectives. I know it's still a new place and probably hasn't been measured yet, but I was wondering about the carbon footprint of St. Petes or urban ecovillages in general compared to DR residents which use something like one tenth the resources of the average person. Any thoughts?
Yeah, I'm not sure. They also have been focusing on getting their houses fixed up and livable, so they haven't had the resources or time to implement renewable energy and other sustainable systems. I know the zoning code will limit what they can do as well, but like I said, there are so many other ways they can reduce their carbon footprint just by being in a densely populated area.
You forgot to mention how noisy Banjo can be when she is chewing her food while you are trying to make a video at DR. 😁 I'm sure you missed her. Great comparison.
Have you thought of maybe some kind of partnership/internship program with MOBOT? I know they're a bit of a distance away down in St. Louis, but since they're so well known for their research that goes clear down to the rain forests of South America seems that possibly some kind of effort to link up could be possible...perhaps recruit those in the city interested in permaculture to join in some kind of volunteer program with some kind of production/education and/or exhibit at MOBOT making visitors aware of the importance of permaculture and Dancing Rabbit's efforts as well as it's existence? Also in St. Louis there's Kortex. But I'm not sure whether they're GMO influenced or not. How about information booths at universities, colleges (Yep...I know...it takes volunteers with a little time on their hands...but how about during the winter when things wind down there?). Maybe if some have a little time at county/state fairs or farmer's markets? And there's the art community as possible potential DRECO residents. I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of artists interested in producing/procuring natural dyes, clays, weaving materials etc. that have no idea that DRECO exists. Someone there might think of starting a business of making water colors, pastels or even oil colors with natural dyes and minerals. How about wools...or even weaving fabrics? Or paper (hopefully from industrial hemp). Seems like the emphasis at DRECO is focused on permaculture basics of food production and natural building (yeah, that's great and what it is really the biggest part of it) and yet there's not enough thinking out of the box...(?)...or am I ignorant in that these efforts have already been approached? I want DRECO to grow and prosper, and I hope some day to be part of it (sadly, just not possible for me at this time).
Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't included all the info about DR in this video. We do a lot of outreach in many different ways--hold workshops, attend events and give presentations, but not as much as we would like to. It's a matter of having time and energy. As I said in the video, proximity to volunteers could help do a lot of extra work that DR members are doing themselves, or just don't have time to do because they are so busy living sustainably. We conduct tours with school groups and universities all the time, but because we are so far away from them, we cannot have as many groups as if we were closer to a population center. We've thought of many different ideas for cottage industries, but still, our location limits us in many ways. I don't think we've thought of the MO botanical gardens before. Might be something to look into.
Yes, of course all people are welcomed. I should mention that I don't know the current status of the St Pete Ecovillage. I'm not sure that anyone is living there at this point. They have been going through changes.
Biodiversity, baby! And cultural diversity--every cultural perspective enriches the mental ecology, so to speak. Looking at history, renaissances happen when people of different cultures meet and mingle and give birth to ideas that neither of them could have conceived alone. Too often this has happened as a consolation prize after conflict--how much more powerful when it happens with love and respect! (Of course I might be biased, being of mixed race.) I must point out an important consideration, through a parallel situation. I used to regularly attend a poetry group where the leader frequently invited poets of all colors to attend, despite which for years it remained mostly white. The reason was that a person of color would show up, see only 2-3 other people of color and think, "I don't belong here--I'd just be a token." And they'd never come back. But hey, if they'd all stayed the group would have balanced out into a proper blend! The point is, we have to not only conquer prejudice (which, you're right, it's real enough that we have reason to ask, "Would I be welcome?") but also our own conditioned fear of rejection. Good for you for asking instead of assuming! May you have a wonderful future living in community!
So now after this. I have to ask. If you where made to live in one place DR or Ecovillage where would it be? This is a one time move for your life time. Sorry ok maybe a few more lol. What would you say was your fave food grown in FL? What is your fave you grow in DR? One more lol. What did you miss the most about DR?
Those are good questions Bobby. I like the idea of visiting St Pete Ecovillage, but I'm not sure I would be able to go back to living in a cooperative housing situation full time. I love what they are doing at St Pete and think it's great model and a great place for an ecovillage, but for now I'm happy being at DR most of the time. I definitely missed having my own house at DR and I missed Banjo, because she didn't come with me. There are so many good fruits you can grow in Florida, it's hard to say what I liked most. Mango, fresh grapefruit juice, fresh orange juice, and all those crazy unusual fruits I didn't get the chance to eat when I was there. Definitely the seafood, like crab, clams, fish, are something abundant there that I can't really get here that I love having access to. I don't eat commercial fish because it's so unsustainable, but catching it myself in the Gulf is much more sustainable. There's probably not much I can grow in Missouri that I couldn't grow in Florida. Pears and apples are good, but they really don't compare to mangoes and fresh mandarines. Grapes are probably one of the few things that grows well in Missouri but not so great in Florida. I like having easy access to venison and rabbit at DR as a sustainable source of food. Thanks for asking!
Wow, maybe I had an unusual experience. They did mention nemotodes when I asked about pests, but there really weren't any pests there. Maybe partly because their soil was so healthy, but I think when you are in a city where there are few gardens you get isolated from the pests.
Hi Dan, I enjoyed this video so much that I had to watch it a couple of more times. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us on the benefits of both eco villages. Hopefully the folks at Dancing Rabbit can figure out a way to get lots more people to visit, and to stay.
Thanks Dianne. I'm glad you were able to get so much from the video. We have a bunch of new people moving to DR this year...and some leaving. I'm hoping our numbers will start going up again.
Of course not, honey. Nobody who asks questions is trying to be ignorant--quite the opposite, in fact! The truth is, we live in a country going backwards in racial issues and these questions have to come up sometimes.
(I hope I don't offend, saying "honey" and the like--I'm an old woman, and sometimes old-fashioned, and tend to see younger people as lovable souls I just want to bring into my kitchen and nourish.)
Well, we can have online jobs, but we don't own personal vehicles and are dependent on 4 cars in our vehicle co-op. That makes commuting impossible, and we also live far enough from any jobs that it wouldn't be practical to commute. We are either dependent on online jobs or have to create our own economy in the village.
I never lived at DR, but I lived at two other communities, Arcosanti, and Lost Valley. Alot of the ecovillages back in the day were built in obscure out of the way places because a) that's where affordable land tends to be, b) you have to get outside of building code restrictions, c) over optimism as to how easy complete self sustainability is.
It’s quite interesting. A year and a half ago I reached out to dancing rabbit to arrange visiting them because we were seriously looking for a new home to raise our children in. I was responded with a high camping fee or a extremely high priced room to stay in. Even though the response was kind the community didn’t at all seem to have interest in us visiting and accommodating us unless we had the high prices to dish out. Felt like we were a commodity rather than desired members that could help the community grow.
Hmm. Well, actually for the 1-2 week visitor program we offer, you'd be hard pressed to find a cheaper experience anywhere. Do you know of one? You get camping and food for the week (3 meals a day) paid for and a daily schedule of workshops, orientation, and other great educational experiences from very knowledgeable people. I've found comparable experiences in the states to cost thousands of dollars a week. There are also scholarships available for people who can't afford the whole price. I'm curious if you actually wanted to visit during a structured week program or not and whether you were told about the scholarships. I've never heard of a high camping fee being imposed on anyone (because it's included in the visitor experience price) and don't know what you'd consider high. There are private places to rent but those prices are variable and set by the owners. They are usually far cheaper than any airbnb you'd find, except the Mercantile, which offers all the amenities of a hotel, plus really good food.
We used to operate our visitor program at a loss, but that means we community members were paying so other people could have a great experience with no guarantee they would actually live at DR. A lot of people come just to see it and aren't serious about living there, though we give priority to those who are serious about moving to DR. We think we offer a great experience and the people that go through it by and large say it changes their lives. We are not making a profit, and things cost money. Also people at DR are scraping by financially and can't afford to work for free for people who have much greater access to economic centers.
I just went to the Florida Earthskills Gathering, which is very much a DIY experience of people doing things very simply without infrastructure, with everyone pitching in, camping in a field, porta potties, no buildings, and a very basic and limited breakfast and dinner provided, classes taught by attendees and most of them not free. For 4 days it costs $225-425.
I'm sorry you felt it was financially impossible. I don't understand how you could have come away with that impression unless you were wanting to visit outside a designated visitor session, which we don't recommend people interested in moving to DR do.
The DR visitor program is $700 for an adult for 2 weeks, $200 for a child up to 17 years old, and it includes all those things I mentioned in the previous comment, campsite, food, and educational workshops and presentations. I know everyone has differing finances and with kids there are added costs in addition to paying for adults. There are $620 in scholarships available for each visitor session as well.
Thank you for the extra information. It was outside of the two week time. For our family it would of cost $2000 and next year it would cost $2200 for 2 weeks. That’s not a community that is looking for not privileged members seriously. I was not aware of scholarships but with even the scholarship grants those prices are priced for people who desire a retreat experience not a visit for a potential home location. I completely understand that this property is far away from resources to make money but maybe if this community were to grow to more than just a educational retreat center a slightly different approach should be taken to life and philosophy in the community.
@@clyubove Well, we are not set up for visitors to stay outside the visitor session, unless someone will host you. But still, you won't get the full experience of DR and everyone who wants to live at DR has to go through the visitor program because this is the only way to ensure that people are prepared and know what to expect.
We also don't have a huge joining fee like some communities, which actually makes us much more accessible to people without a lot of money. You can become a member and build a house without paying $10K that you won't get back. It costs nothing but the rental of the land. If you are expecting costs less than that, I'm not sure where you would find them. This is one of the things that attracted me to DR and made it financially feasible for me.
It would be interesting to know your situation and what your expectations are of DR.
What would be the cost for renting the land?... for our family it would cost $2200 + price to build home +rental of land if we were offered a spot? How many people in the community are full timers?
Excellent information sir !! Thanks so much for making this comparison.
When we lived on the rural Oregon Coast, the nights were SO DARK and the stars so bright. The only sounds were wildlife and the ocean. I love my life in the city and what that has provided for our kids and for my partner in terms of a career, but I miss the access to land, and I miss the solitude and connection with nature: the light pollution is intense, and there is constant noise from the city buses, the neighbor's AC, the highway....they're omnipresent.
gotta start somewhere!
Rent a uhaul and take the building materials home to Missouri. I have always wanted to visit dancing rabbit. I need to rent a place there in the fall.
I would love to visit dancing rabbit. Thank you for the educational video and share!
It would be great to see an update on this video! I don't see many St. Pete updates online. I'm also deeply interested in Dancing Rabbit. I do wonder about population growth there. It seems there's a desire to grow to a 150-200 person village, but growth seems stagnant year after year. Obviously, location affects this. Overall, though, DR looks wonderful! Would love to see it grow and continue to thrive.
The St Pete Ecovillage is no more, unfortunately. They couldn't buy one of the properties in between the blue house and the gardens and it made it difficult to set up the village on the planned lots. They did buy a lot of properties in that neighborhood, but then the project fell apart and they are now just being sold for development unfortunately. The gardens are still there, but I don't know their fate.
DR does plan to grow. There are a number of limiting factors to why we haven't grown. Economic conditions contribute to ebbs and flows. We've had a few major challenges in the last few years, one being covid. Location is also a factor. For the most part, I'd say things are always improving. I'd love to see it grow too. We have someone on our board that is interested in the prospect of building larger scale housing options, so planned developments with more smaller apartments or condos. This could make it easier for people to move to DR and not have to build a place. It could also appeal to some who would rather live in a more conventional building.
@@HardcoreSustainable That's too bad about St Pete, but comforting to see DR's continued efforts to thrive in spite of challenges.
The larger-scale building prospect is intriguing. I can see the growth-promoting potential, though it'd likely require leniancy around building materials? Would be hard to build with reclaimed sources exclusively. Maybe a worthwhile trade-off when done in a limited capacity? Idk.
Thanks, Dan, for creating the content you do. I've been researching DR for awhile now and your channel has been invaluable. I plan to visit for two weeks during next visitor season and would love to try some of your wine!
@@LorenElara I look forward to meeting you and you are welcome to try some of my wine!
I love the videos Dan! keep up the great work!
Thank you! Valuable insights. I'm so happy I've gotten to visit alternative communities such as Twin Oaks and Earthaven and some in Oregon for example and do hope to visit these two and more as well. Year-round growing season vs. snowy winter and various building code restrictions etc. are definitely interesting to compare and consider.
Good luck in your search.
good video man, highlighting the differences.. ..strengths & weaknesses.
i’m in Europe and i’m looking for a connection in order to live in a similar approach.
Here, you express the long ‘battle’ of rural vs urban....of scale vs density,... of slow growth vs rapid growth.
Achieving sth in between is ideal....but. REALLY hard.
cheers from Portugal ;)
Having seen many communities in the country fold because they needed city amenities, and many city communities fold because they felt the city draining them, I've often thought that communities should come in marriages--one community in the country and a closely interdependent one in the nearest city, owning between them at least one biodiesel truck to haul stuff to and fro. There's definitely city folks and country folks, but few of either want to spend all of their time in one or the other.
In two married communities (Not just members of the same umbrella group, but two groups joined in a loving bond that creates a familial connection) anybody in the country who has a medical need or other business in town, or who just wants to do some shopping, attend a meeting, or have a night on the town, would have a place to stay in the city at need, while anybody in the country who needs to detox from the city or reconnect with the land can have a place in the country at need. People in the cities can scavenge good junk and send it to the country, and people who make or grow wares in the country can send them to the city to sell. Just as a husband and wife have differences but get along, communities also could have compatible differences and still love each other and get symbiotic with each other.
What do you think?
I've thought of the same thing. My idea was to start a Dancing Rabbit South in Florida, so people could migrate there for the winter to escape the cold and not have to burn wood to keep warm. And it could be closer to city amenities. It definitely makes sense and this is why I go to St Pete in the winter.
Hi Dan, just watched your video. Thanks for the comparison. I live in Central FL and plan on visiting the St. Pete location soon. I have been researching eco villages for about 5 years now and am amazed at how many are popping up just in the past 2 years. I think people see the writing on the wall about the need for self-sustainability. Are you familiar with Penny Kenny? She is a Michigan native and author. She wrote a book that I highly recommend called Robes which speaks about our future. I don't want to get into the doom and gloom aspect of the book, but the message throughout was that growing your own food and having access to clean off the grid drinking water is key for our future survival.
I would love for our family of three to be a part of your community, but the cold would be a little tough. ♡
Thanks for the comment Helena. I'm not familiar with Penny Kenny but I'll check her out. I hope there is more of a movement towards sustainability. You wouldn't know it looking at our current government, but most of them got their power by the fuel of the ultrarich and by dirty political tricks. It takes people at the grassroots to create real change. Good luck in your search for a cool ecovillage.
Hardcore Sustainable You are so right about the need for grassroots change. Honestly, I have checked out from the current political circus. It's the same people behind the scenes regardless of who we have in office. Although, the current administration should make a lot of people nervous.
We probably won't end up in an ecovillage. My husband wants to try homesteading first. We've got 5 acres to work with in a rural area of northern FL, which has some of the most beautiful cold springs in walking distance from the home. Our plan is to plant fruit and nut trees this year in hopes that they will start bearing fruit in 5 years when we move up there. I would prefer an ecovillage, because I think community is important, but my husband thinks that it might be too taxing on our introverted personalities. ;)
Penny Kelly did some interviews recently with Regina Meredith that are available in TH-cam. I will find the first one and post it for you. ;)
Hardcore Sustainable th-cam.com/video/P0sc2DczmI0/w-d-xo.html
EcoVillages/CoHousing Communities are a great way to fight high rent, mortgages, and lack of connection. I've been investigating ownership models and I think that's the major hinderance to ecovillage/cohousing development.
Forest Gaia I researched cost a few years ago, and it was out of reach for a lot of people that could really benefit from it. Some intentional communities also have very strict rules and age requirements, which really hampers one's ability to find a community that is welcoming and right for you. The research that Dan Buettner did on the Blue Zones, shows that communities that mirror eco villages/intentional communities, have the longest living people on the planet. The key is having multigenerational communities that grow a lot of their own food, where members are valued and supported, and where everyone chips in, young and old, to keep the community thriving. With the huge amount of baby boomers reaching sunset age, and the rise of special needs individuals (autism), we need these kind of communities where everyone can chip in to help with care, rather than housing these individuals in nursing or group homes. I have worked in both, and have no desire to have a loved one or myself end up in either.
This was really well done, Dan. Thanks!
Thanks Ma'ikwe. Glad you liked it and are watching. Hope you are well.
Very enlightening. Thank you. I have been following along with D.R. for years and it sounds interesting. Would like to tour one day. I love the idea of learning about natural building and doing it myself one day. I would love to have an acre or two one day also, but it is so expensive to do so.
Hi Dan, I was just wondering what it means to be a special person to live in community. I know this is a hard question and you have lived in community for a long time. Can you share what attributes you already had or have developed to live in community? It seems both DR and St.Pete Ecovillage have people that do well and others that don't. Are you willing to share what those characteristics are with us?
Hi. This is random, but I lived at both Arcosanti, and Lost Valley, and knew several people from DR. To answer your question from my experience I found in these places one of the main thing that makes people not do well is primarily about adaptability, tolerance, and ability to plan. Adaptability and tolerance are hard because many people move to communities to get a specific lifestyle. They want to be vegetarians, they want to practice a certain belief, etc. These people can often get very upset when others don't follow those same beliefs. The planning part because people who don't plan tend to want things NOW, and if you don't have those things they assume its because your doing that to hurt them, and so they become spiteful against you.
I think getting the word out is a great idea.
If you reach the right person. That person can bring a lot of people = )
How can dancing rabbit have horrible soil? It's in northeast Missouri.
Does this area have good soil historically or something? We have rolling hills and conventional agriculture has run our land into the ground, so to speak. When you have highly erodible land and farmers have been tilling the soil bare every year to grow the same crops over and over with little attention to soil health, you get horrible soil. What might have at one time been a few feet of topsoil is down to 0-10 inches. Farmers combat the poor soil health by dumping fertilizer and pesticides on their crops, and only growing corn and soybeans, which have been bred to be able to produce in poor soils with the use of chemicals. If there are spots with good soil, they are only living off the the bank of history before conventional agriculture started destroying them. A lot of our county is eligible for the CRP program because it is highly erodible, which is a sign of its low quality.
Obviously, some human ruined the soil: overexploitation, érosion, déforestation. You name it.
I would say that St Pete's echo village is probably the absolute best and has the most potential and it's because whoever came up with the whole idea of putting an echo village in a place where it couldn't thrive and really didn't plan it out properly or even kick-start it the way that they should have which by the way you have Kickstarter and GoFundMe to get the community meaning all people who believe in this type of living to back you guys if you want it to be able to deploy systems that will help you to grow food all year long and to even you know have the ability to be able to put up some Airbnb so people can have the experience and not be asking for such an exorbitant amount of money for people to come for a week or two weeks and I'm not even sure what's included in that package at dancing rabbit because I was completely turned off by the questionnaires they're looking to make decisions based on what commodities skills and even how they're going to be earning money and I don't really know that that's any of their business if you're part of a community you don't start asking people questions about money and you definitely don't want to talk politics or religion it's just kind of a taboo. For me dancing rabbit has nothing to offer the climate is bad you can't grow food they don't have systems in place it wasn't well thought of there's actually nowhere for people to have the experience no one has even taken the time to build accommodations for people who want to have that experience for a fee whether it's an Airbnb or something that is just contracted through dancing rabbit but there are people like me who are visionaries and we can come up with great ideas but if there's all these hindrances because things were poorly planned and executed well you know it sounds to me like it was a bad idea from the get-go someone tried to fit a square in a circle peg and now they're feeling kind of silly about it and they're trying to reach out to people to get them to get on board with an idea that was bad from the jump. I'll tell you what when and if I ever have the resources I'll get all my ducks in a row and then launch it I wouldn't just move to a barren land and expect people to jump on board and help me build paradise but charge them $800 for two-week visit and not include anything expecting people to pay for their accommodations which as you said there's nothing really nearby so that means they'd really be forced to stay there and pay someone either 9 to like $50 whatever it was on the website for 2 weeks and I'm sure that food's not included either and as you've said you can't even grow the food there not really. Now who wants to take part in that. The interview process for even just allowing someone to come and visit is completely polar to the cry for help to build community because this particular community is not interested in outsiders they're not interested in anyone coming in and contributing because they want to control everything and so right there that's a big concern for me cuz I actually looked at it I'm in a situation where I live in my car for three years now and it wasn't my choice originally but as time went on I realized that I just wasn't going to be able to try to squeeze myself back into society and be okay with that because society is very sick and doesn't offer me anything but a cyclic debt it's not something that I'm looking for at 51 years of age after having such a traumatic event happen that put me in that position. And I stayed because I had a lot of hindrances around earning money and I'm in a very well actually overpopulated area people just are not receptive or nice unfortunately very aggressive and there's a lot of reasons why that is the case. so for me being in nature and being around like-minded individuals would be really nice especially living in a community where we all felt similarly but the focus shouldn't be on money and that's where it is and the reason for that is because it's not a thriving community and no one can get excited about that. It is a complete fail and I think it's time for the people who are running the show there to understand that you might have very little to offer but no reason to stay
Good video Dan, appreciate the perspectives. I know it's still a new place and probably hasn't been measured yet, but I was wondering about the carbon footprint of St. Petes or urban ecovillages in general compared to DR residents which use something like one tenth the resources of the average person. Any thoughts?
Yeah, I'm not sure. They also have been focusing on getting their houses fixed up and livable, so they haven't had the resources or time to implement renewable energy and other sustainable systems. I know the zoning code will limit what they can do as well, but like I said, there are so many other ways they can reduce their carbon footprint just by being in a densely populated area.
You forgot to mention how noisy Banjo can be when she is chewing her food while you are trying to make a video at DR. 😁 I'm sure you missed her. Great comparison.
Have you thought of maybe some kind of partnership/internship program with MOBOT? I know they're a bit of a distance away down in St. Louis, but since they're so well known for their research that goes clear down to the rain forests of South America seems that possibly some kind of effort to link up could be possible...perhaps recruit those in the city interested in permaculture to join in some kind of volunteer program with some kind of production/education and/or exhibit at MOBOT making visitors aware of the importance of permaculture and Dancing Rabbit's efforts as well as it's existence?
Also in St. Louis there's Kortex. But I'm not sure whether they're GMO influenced or not.
How about information booths at universities, colleges (Yep...I know...it takes volunteers with a little time on their hands...but how about during the winter when things wind down there?). Maybe if some have a little time at county/state fairs or farmer's markets?
And there's the art community as possible potential DRECO residents. I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of artists interested in producing/procuring natural dyes, clays, weaving materials etc. that have no idea that DRECO exists. Someone there might think of starting a business of making water colors, pastels or even oil colors with natural dyes and minerals. How about wools...or even weaving fabrics? Or paper (hopefully from industrial hemp).
Seems like the emphasis at DRECO is focused on permaculture basics of food production and natural building (yeah, that's great and what it is really the biggest part of it) and yet there's not enough thinking out of the box...(?)...or am I ignorant in that these efforts have already been approached?
I want DRECO to grow and prosper, and I hope some day to be part of it (sadly, just not possible for me at this time).
Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't included all the info about DR in this video. We do a lot of outreach in many different ways--hold workshops, attend events and give presentations, but not as much as we would like to. It's a matter of having time and energy. As I said in the video, proximity to volunteers could help do a lot of extra work that DR members are doing themselves, or just don't have time to do because they are so busy living sustainably. We conduct tours with school groups and universities all the time, but because we are so far away from them, we cannot have as many groups as if we were closer to a population center. We've thought of many different ideas for cottage industries, but still, our location limits us in many ways. I don't think we've thought of the MO botanical gardens before. Might be something to look into.
Om Ah Houm
Hello I am so interested are black people welcomed?
Yes, of course all people are welcomed. I should mention that I don't know the current status of the St Pete Ecovillage. I'm not sure that anyone is living there at this point. They have been going through changes.
Biodiversity, baby! And cultural diversity--every cultural perspective enriches the mental ecology, so to speak. Looking at history, renaissances happen when people of different cultures meet and mingle and give birth to ideas that neither of them could have conceived alone. Too often this has happened as a consolation prize after conflict--how much more powerful when it happens with love and respect! (Of course I might be biased, being of mixed race.)
I must point out an important consideration, through a parallel situation. I used to regularly attend a poetry group where the leader frequently invited poets of all colors to attend, despite which for years it remained mostly white. The reason was that a person of color would show up, see only 2-3 other people of color and think, "I don't belong here--I'd just be a token." And they'd never come back. But hey, if they'd all stayed the group would have balanced out into a proper blend!
The point is, we have to not only conquer prejudice (which, you're right, it's real enough that we have reason to ask, "Would I be welcome?") but also our own conditioned fear of rejection. Good for you for asking instead of assuming! May you have a wonderful future living in community!
So now after this. I have to ask. If you where made to live in one place DR or Ecovillage where would it be? This is a one time move for your life time. Sorry ok maybe a few more lol. What would you say was your fave food grown in FL? What is your fave you grow in DR? One more lol. What did you miss the most about DR?
Those are good questions Bobby. I like the idea of visiting St Pete Ecovillage, but I'm not sure I would be able to go back to living in a cooperative housing situation full time. I love what they are doing at St Pete and think it's great model and a great place for an ecovillage, but for now I'm happy being at DR most of the time. I definitely missed having my own house at DR and I missed Banjo, because she didn't come with me. There are so many good fruits you can grow in Florida, it's hard to say what I liked most. Mango, fresh grapefruit juice, fresh orange juice, and all those crazy unusual fruits I didn't get the chance to eat when I was there. Definitely the seafood, like crab, clams, fish, are something abundant there that I can't really get here that I love having access to. I don't eat commercial fish because it's so unsustainable, but catching it myself in the Gulf is much more sustainable. There's probably not much I can grow in Missouri that I couldn't grow in Florida. Pears and apples are good, but they really don't compare to mangoes and fresh mandarines. Grapes are probably one of the few things that grows well in Missouri but not so great in Florida. I like having easy access to venison and rabbit at DR as a sustainable source of food. Thanks for asking!
Wow, maybe I had an unusual experience. They did mention nemotodes when I asked about pests, but there really weren't any pests there. Maybe partly because their soil was so healthy, but I think when you are in a city where there are few gardens you get isolated from the pests.
Hi Dan, I enjoyed this video so much that I had to watch it a couple of more times. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us on the benefits of both eco villages. Hopefully the folks at Dancing Rabbit can figure out a way to get lots more people to visit, and to stay.
Thanks Dianne. I'm glad you were able to get so much from the video. We have a bunch of new people moving to DR this year...and some leaving. I'm hoping our numbers will start going up again.
Not trying to be ignorant
Of course not, honey. Nobody who asks questions is trying to be ignorant--quite the opposite, in fact! The truth is, we live in a country going backwards in racial issues and these questions have to come up sometimes.
(I hope I don't offend, saying "honey" and the like--I'm an old woman, and sometimes old-fashioned, and tend to see younger people as lovable souls I just want to bring into my kitchen and nourish.)
i think it was a smart thing to ask
Why is dancing rabbit so far in the country that members can’t take jobs.
Well, we can have online jobs, but we don't own personal vehicles and are dependent on 4 cars in our vehicle co-op. That makes commuting impossible, and we also live far enough from any jobs that it wouldn't be practical to commute. We are either dependent on online jobs or have to create our own economy in the village.
I never lived at DR, but I lived at two other communities, Arcosanti, and Lost Valley. Alot of the ecovillages back in the day were built in obscure out of the way places because a) that's where affordable land tends to be, b) you have to get outside of building code restrictions, c) over optimism as to how easy complete self sustainability is.