I added one to my shop and it works great. I hung mine on a frame @ 6.5 feet tall with wheels and I can roll it all over the shop area wherever I am working. Get one!
@@garyjohnson6164 I have not used it enough yet to notice any difference in the electric bill. It just recently became cold enough to use it in the shop.
I have 3 of these in my garage, works great to warm up when -20C outside .After 1 hr can easily wipe down car or truck from wash. Paid $120 for all three on sale.
I bought one for a goat barn. When the babies are born they need to stay warm and this heater is far safer than heat lamps. I was going to buy another for my garage where I have wood working equipment, but have been diagnosed with fibrosis in my lungs. So now my wood working days are over. These are wonderful heaters and heat much better than any other space heater I've tried in the past. I think they work better when mounted high on the wall instead of the ceiling.
I think that's a great point. If you are in the shop for 10-15min and want some quick heat, but don't want to fire up the propane/kerosene heater, this is the ticket.
Bought a house with this garage heater installed in it in the garage. Used it during winter while working on some projects, and oh men. I was shocked that my electric bill that went up high.
I was in the market for one of these and some brother-in-law of mine gifted one to me for Christmas. Does wonders on chillier days in the work area of my 24x30 garage. "It's like a fireplace for your ceiling"...Nailed it!
Hey! I have a 30x50 garage that I just built. Its a metal pole building that's not yet insulated. I'm wondering if I were to put one of these above just my work area, if I'd be warm enough to work out there when its around freezing temps this winter. Not concerned about heating the whole 30x50 space, just myself and the objects I'm working on. Thoughts?
I love your comment about the roof of the parked car. So I'm thinking installing metal sheets along the walls would help 'absorb' and emit the heat into the air.
Yea, it's pretty amazing how much a difference that makes. Keep in mind though that the heater has to be pointed directly at something for it to absorb the heat. So if you put metal panels elsewhere, it won't help heat your space. Make sense?
i have three infrared heaters in my home, very energy efficient. With having Parkinson’s disease i need to be warm to help decrease pain and stiffness.
I put two of these in my workshop at the end of last winter. This winter I’ve used them almost daily and they work incredibly well. I have them on individual circuits so I can both at the same time and still run my table saw, dust collection etc. without popping breakers. I don’t think they are as good as a gas heater but for being 110v they are great
I appreciate your video. You explained it very well and I have watched a few on heaters. Just found this puppy for $42.99 on Wayfair including shipping so I ordered it. Just need some spot heat over my workbench so I can get out of the house anytime instead of only in the afternoons. Not too cold here in San Antonio, but it's been in high twenties lately, so needed the help. Thanks agan.
Great review! Love the price, for sure. This heater is going on my garage shop list. (Funny, "not sure why wind would be blowing out of the garage", I can think of one reason, haha!) Great video, thanks for posting.
Seems like a reasonable heater for the price, long as you have enough power to run it without blowing fuses or breakers? Myself I have a Empire propane ceramic heater that normally mounts on a wall, but I turned my heater into a portable heater that I can roll around to wherever I need/want heat. This heater puts out the heat too, it will chase you away from it standing even 3 feet in front of it! These heaters are extremely safe and efficient. In fact the heater company claims these heaters are 99.9% efficient! Built in oxygen sensor that will shut off the heater if not enough oxygen in the room. Carbon monoxide sensor as well also shut the heater off. Heater falls it shuts off too! I’ve had this Empire propane 5 ceramic panel heater now for over 20 years and have never had to do any service work on it whatsoever! Just connect to good clean propane and hit the igniter button to lite the pilot light and wait a couple seconds for the pilot to warm up before turning it fully on! Completely quiet too! Although you can mount a fan on it to circulate more air if you desire to? But honestly a fan not needed in majority of situations cause this gets so dang hot! For that reason burnable material does need to be kept least 3 ft from the front and front sides of the heater. But the back sides and back itself keeps completely cool no matter how long the heater is running! If I could add a picture here I’d show how there’s just a piece of 3/4” plywood between the back of the heater and a 20 lbs propane tank and completely safe to use! Only drawback is these heaters are not cheap for the 5 panel models like I own around $600.00. Although they do make smaller heaters with less ceramic panels that will produce less heat. Some similar to the big buddy heaters only much better heaters! Especially if you make a rolling cart that holds the heater and a propane tank all in a self contained unit on wheels! We’re talking apples and oranges difference between these two heater along with cost! But if you need more heat quicker or don’t have enough electricity to run a heater. You can’t best this propane ceramic heater for heat nor for reliability either! I’ll never give up my empire ceramic heater! How much propane you use depends on how cold your room is and how well insulated the room is? Generally I can keep my 20x30 garage warm while I’m working in it for roughly a week on a 20 lbs propane tank before needing to refill the tank. And my garage wasn’t insulated at all, had two cinder block walls on each side of garage and when those cinder blocks are cold they take forever to warm up! But side my heater 5-6 feet from me and I’m more then toasty warm! Love showing off this heater, especially on the rolling stand I made for it! It really is the most amazing heater I’ve ever seen yet! Even with the high cost of buying one, no cost whatsoever after buying it for over 20 years except for propane to run it hard to ignore! Never have had any electric heater last that long! In fact majority of electric heaters cords get hot if using long term and I have seen numerous heater cords catch fire and burn themselves into two pieces leaving burn marks on the floor or carpet! So double check your heater cord with your hand to see if the cord ever gets hot? As the heater gets older the cord can start producing more heat too! Be careful! I had one house fire from electric heater, hate to see or hear anyone else go thru what I did! Those UL approved stickers apparently mean very little? Best of luck to you and be safe!
Looks like I will have to give this heater a try. Is it still working great for you? Also what is your honest opinion after a year of usage? I will be using you amazon affiliate link, thank you!
Thanks! It has worked well for me, but you also have to have realistic expectations. It's really for Heating a direct spot while you work. It does a great job at that. If you want a large room warmed then you will want to look elsewhere
Great review! You must have done a great job promoting these because Amazon in the UK is now sold out 😂. I have a standard UK double car garage which I use as a workshop as you can see in my videos and I thought this would be perfect. I will just have to wait until they are back in stock👍
Looking to turn my 2-car garage in winter months into a makeshift den to smoke cigars, have some drinks & watch some games either by myself or a busy or two at most. With all that’s going on these days it makes more sense than heading to the lounge! So typically I would leave one of my trucks outside. How do u think Thai would perform??
If you use a proper gage cord its fine just dont use a cord that is to long or a cord that you would use to plug in a table lamp. You need a heavy gage construction cord that can handle a heavy draw.
Well you can sit under it anywhere....will it keep you warm...depends on how cold it is! ha If it's in the 30's I would say it will be helpful. If down in the teens, then dress for the occasion. Remember, it just plugs into a 120v outlet. Don't expect miracles! :)
Greetings, I live with my daughter and I am constantly organizing the garage to store art supplies (that are good in the cold). Her garage is 400 square feet, if I need to be out there for a couple of hours, do you think this would work and do I have to mount it?
Yes, you do need to mount it. It will heat a specifc area you are working in, but not likley to heat the air around you. I.e. When someone walks into the garage and it's on, it will still feel chilly, but if you are sitting a table/bench and it is pointed at you, you will feel warm. It's infrared.
The infrared heater used in garage didn't heat it the Patio Boss it highest setting is 1500 watts but could use it for curing paint on panel spots want to try doing that because was gonna paint my truck again. But heating the garage two car not insulated one it will take more to do that.
Oh for anyone who doesn't know any of these heaters they are like giant resistors so avoid using extensions cords or using the same electric circuit as circular saws, table saws ect .. that draw amps like crazy and you will save yourself a lot of headaches !! Pick a plug in that is on a separate circuit a
Hi, I have to ame heater in my garage, and move it to different locations all the time. The ceiling does not get hot. The back of the heater doesnt get that hot.
@@IndyFarmLife well the reason I asked that question was because I had a similar heater in the garage and a short acquired and the circuit breaker didn't kick off and burned the wires and the socket out and it sounded like a bomb went off. I was lucky I was home that day because I had 15 gallons of gas stored in the garage and I was able to put out the fire at the socket and flip the circuit breaker....that was a wake up call for me.
How long does it take to heat garage have two car garage and used the Patio boss Infrared heater and had it on under a hour and saw it was at 50 degrees when turned it off. It said can use in patio or garage it is 33 today now but didn't have it on for a couple hours at 1500 watts but wanna see Wednesday how much it will heat garage.
I have 2 in my 2 car garage. Seems like a waste of electricity. It does not warm you, it only burns you if you're try to go underneath it for warmth...
If you can't exchange it, you could take the case apart, and with your $10 harbor freight multi-meter, you could check the resistance across the elements, or check that it's getting voltage. I take it the built-in light at least comes on? Maybe there's a fuse in the unit that blew? Be safe, and Good luck!
Hey! I have a 30x50 garage that I just built. Its a metal pole building that's not yet insulated. I'm wondering if I were to put one of these above just my work area, if I'd be warm enough to work out there when its around freezing temps this winter. Not concerned about heating the whole 30x50 space, just myself and the objects I'm working on. Thoughts?
You will definitely notice the warmth. My adivce would be to mount it as low/close to you as you can. I assume your ceilings are pretty tall. If it's 15ft in the air you won't feel it.
Radiant... or better described is "resistance heat". All resistance heaters are 100percent efficient... It doesn't matter which one you buy. Having a fan with it.. or near it helps distribution. Mini splits are MUCH cheaper to run... and you get heat OR air conditioning. Splits are way more expensive to purchase.
I added one to my shop and it works great. I hung mine on a frame @ 6.5 feet tall with wheels and I can roll it all over the shop area wherever I am working. Get one!
Have you got a electric bill since you installed this? If so how much did it go up? I'm looking at a model similar to this
@@garyjohnson6164 I have not used it enough yet to notice any difference in the electric bill. It just recently became cold enough to use it in the shop.
I have 3 of these in my garage, works great to warm up when -20C outside .After 1 hr can easily wipe down car or truck from wash. Paid $120 for all three on sale.
I bought one for a goat barn. When the babies are born they need to stay warm and this heater is far safer than heat lamps. I was going to buy another for my garage where I have wood working equipment, but have been diagnosed with fibrosis in my lungs. So now my wood working days are over.
These are wonderful heaters and heat much better than any other space heater I've tried in the past. I think they work better when mounted high on the wall instead of the ceiling.
These are perfect above your work bench. Instant heat even for quick work.
I think that's a great point. If you are in the shop for 10-15min and want some quick heat, but don't want to fire up the propane/kerosene heater, this is the ticket.
Bought a house with this garage heater installed in it in the garage. Used it during winter while working on some projects, and oh men. I was shocked that my electric bill that went up high.
I was in the market for one of these and some brother-in-law of mine gifted one to me for Christmas. Does wonders on chillier days in the work area of my 24x30 garage. "It's like a fireplace for your ceiling"...Nailed it!
Hey! I have a 30x50 garage that I just built. Its a metal pole building that's not yet insulated. I'm wondering if I were to put one of these above just my work area, if I'd be warm enough to work out there when its around freezing temps this winter. Not concerned about heating the whole 30x50 space, just myself and the objects I'm working on. Thoughts?
Love all the details on the differences between radiant and forced air. Great review of this heater and heaters in general. Great video!
I love your comment about the roof of the parked car. So I'm thinking installing metal sheets along the walls would help 'absorb' and emit the heat into the air.
Yea, it's pretty amazing how much a difference that makes. Keep in mind though that the heater has to be pointed directly at something for it to absorb the heat. So if you put metal panels elsewhere, it won't help heat your space. Make sense?
@@IndyFarmLife Indeed, yes.
I want to buy 2 of them for my garge for my pool room. I'm sure they will work if I get two.What do you think? For square footage
i have three infrared heaters in my home, very energy efficient. With having Parkinson’s disease i need to be warm to help decrease pain and stiffness.
They do work very well! I am glad to hear they bring you some comfort.
My 2nd favorite garage "accessory". #1 is the beer fridge, so that's a hard one to beat. ;)
I put two of these in my workshop at the end of last winter. This winter I’ve used them almost daily and they work incredibly well. I have them on individual circuits so I can both at the same time and still run my table saw, dust collection etc. without popping breakers. I don’t think they are as good as a gas heater but for being 110v they are great
Hair dryers, heat guns, are most all 1500 watts. Easy to use and place. 2 or 3 will warm up a small/ med shop.
If they are in different circuits, then yes.
"It's like a fireplace for your ceiling" cracked me up xD
I appreciate your video. You explained it very well and I have watched a few on heaters. Just found this puppy for $42.99 on Wayfair including shipping so I ordered it. Just need some spot heat over my workbench so I can get out of the house anytime instead of only in the afternoons. Not too cold here in San Antonio, but it's been in high twenties lately, so needed the help. Thanks agan.
Use a hair dryer/ heat gun for workbench heating.
hahaha, I can understand why wind would be blowing out. Great video, very helpful.
This video really helped me decide; clear to the point without any confusing info; thank u
Thank you for taking the time to do this review.
Glad it was helpful!
Great review! Love the price, for sure. This heater is going on my garage shop list. (Funny, "not sure why wind would be blowing out of the garage", I can think of one reason, haha!) Great video, thanks for posting.
Seems like a reasonable heater for the price, long as you have enough power to run it without blowing fuses or breakers? Myself I have a Empire propane ceramic heater that normally mounts on a wall, but I turned my heater into a portable heater that I can roll around to wherever I need/want heat. This heater puts out the heat too, it will chase you away from it standing even 3 feet in front of it! These heaters are extremely safe and efficient. In fact the heater company claims these heaters are 99.9% efficient! Built in oxygen sensor that will shut off the heater if not enough oxygen in the room. Carbon monoxide sensor as well also shut the heater off. Heater falls it shuts off too! I’ve had this Empire propane 5 ceramic panel heater now for over 20 years and have never had to do any service work on it whatsoever! Just connect to good clean propane and hit the igniter button to lite the pilot light and wait a couple seconds for the pilot to warm up before turning it fully on! Completely quiet too! Although you can mount a fan on it to circulate more air if you desire to? But honestly a fan not needed in majority of situations cause this gets so dang hot! For that reason burnable material does need to be kept least 3 ft from the front and front sides of the heater. But the back sides and back itself keeps completely cool no matter how long the heater is running! If I could add a picture here I’d show how there’s just a piece of 3/4” plywood between the back of the heater and a 20 lbs propane tank and completely safe to use! Only drawback is these heaters are not cheap for the 5 panel models like I own around $600.00. Although they do make smaller heaters with less ceramic panels that will produce less heat. Some similar to the big buddy heaters only much better heaters! Especially if you make a rolling cart that holds the heater and a propane tank all in a self contained unit on wheels! We’re talking apples and oranges difference between these two heater along with cost! But if you need more heat quicker or don’t have enough electricity to run a heater. You can’t best this propane ceramic heater for heat nor for reliability either! I’ll never give up my empire ceramic heater! How much propane you use depends on how cold your room is and how well insulated the room is? Generally I can keep my 20x30 garage warm while I’m working in it for roughly a week on a 20 lbs propane tank before needing to refill the tank. And my garage wasn’t insulated at all, had two cinder block walls on each side of garage and when those cinder blocks are cold they take forever to warm up! But side my heater 5-6 feet from me and I’m more then toasty warm! Love showing off this heater, especially on the rolling stand I made for it! It really is the most amazing heater I’ve ever seen yet! Even with the high cost of buying one, no cost whatsoever after buying it for over 20 years except for propane to run it hard to ignore! Never have had any electric heater last that long! In fact majority of electric heaters cords get hot if using long term and I have seen numerous heater cords catch fire and burn themselves into two pieces leaving burn marks on the floor or carpet! So double check your heater cord with your hand to see if the cord ever gets hot? As the heater gets older the cord can start producing more heat too! Be careful! I had one house fire from electric heater, hate to see or hear anyone else go thru what I did! Those UL approved stickers apparently mean very little? Best of luck to you and be safe!
Looks like I will have to give this heater a try. Is it still working great for you? Also what is your honest opinion after a year of usage? I will be using you amazon affiliate link, thank you!
Thanks! It has worked well for me, but you also have to have realistic expectations. It's really for Heating a direct spot while you work. It does a great job at that. If you want a large room warmed then you will want to look elsewhere
@@IndyFarmLife thank you for the info.
You look like Jim from "The Office"...nice video, I'm getting this heater.
He also looks and sounds like Ryan Reynolds. BTW, I came here looking for a patio heater. This heater looks insufficient. 👍
@@zackiinu7194...not good for a patio, for the garage it works well. BTW, I don't look like anyone. STAY SAFE
Great review! You must have done a great job promoting these because Amazon in the UK is now sold out 😂. I have a standard UK double car garage which I use as a workshop as you can see in my videos and I thought this would be perfect. I will just have to wait until they are back in stock👍
Looking to turn my 2-car garage in winter months into a makeshift den to smoke cigars, have some drinks & watch some games either by myself or a busy or two at most. With all that’s going on these days it makes more sense than heading to the lounge! So typically I would leave one of my trucks outside. How do u think Thai would perform??
Do you think this would be good for a 15' RV camper
Nice video? Is it safe to connect it with an extension cord though? Thanks
Thanks. I'm not an electrician but I would guess that it's probably not advisable.
If you use a proper gage cord its fine just dont use a cord that is to long or a cord that you would use to plug in a table lamp. You need a heavy gage construction cord that can handle a heavy draw.
@@lookingthroughice7843 thx. I bought the 25ft 12 gauge extension cord. So far so good
But could I sit under one within 5 ft. in northeast winter outside to have a cigar?
Well you can sit under it anywhere....will it keep you warm...depends on how cold it is! ha If it's in the 30's I would say it will be helpful. If down in the teens, then dress for the occasion. Remember, it just plugs into a 120v outlet. Don't expect miracles! :)
I wonder if you can put a heater like this in the attic to keep snow from building up, and just melt it ?
Is it 100% safe? Can I leave it on at night while I sleep? Can I leave it on for a few days while I go out of towm?
Greetings, I live with my daughter and I am constantly organizing the garage to store art supplies (that are good in the cold). Her garage is 400 square feet, if I need to be out there for a couple of hours, do you think this would work and do I have to mount it?
Yes, you do need to mount it. It will heat a specifc area you are working in, but not likley to heat the air around you. I.e. When someone walks into the garage and it's on, it will still feel chilly, but if you are sitting a table/bench and it is pointed at you, you will feel warm. It's infrared.
I've bought these at like 45 worth every penny
I have one and it’s great but one of the elements died. How do you replace that?
The infrared heater used in garage didn't heat it the Patio Boss it highest setting is 1500 watts but could use it for curing paint on panel spots want to try doing that because was gonna paint my truck again. But heating the garage two car not insulated one it will take more to do that.
Thank you back for your reply I was just concerned.
I also highly recommend this product, I have it hanging in my gazebo 😂
Oh for anyone who doesn't know any of these heaters they are like giant resistors so avoid using extensions cords or using the same electric circuit as circular saws, table saws ect .. that draw amps like crazy and you will save yourself a lot of headaches !! Pick a plug in that is on a separate circuit a
Great advice! I have had mine trip a breaker a time or two.
Curious how warm does the ceiling above gets when it is in use?
Hi, I have to ame heater in my garage, and move it to different locations all the time. The ceiling does not get hot. The back of the heater doesnt get that hot.
I have two of these and they help a bit.
This is a great video could you tell me if the electric cord gets hot when left on for an extended time.
I have a very similar heater that sits on the floor and yes the cord gets hot.
Did he ever get back to you?
@@anthonyshakibanasab4530 hello Anthony no he never got back to me after he said he would check it out.
@@IndyFarmLife well the reason I asked that question was because I had a similar heater in the garage and a short acquired and the circuit breaker didn't kick off and burned the wires and the socket out and it sounded like a bomb went off. I was lucky I was home that day because I had 15 gallons of gas stored in the garage and I was able to put out the fire at the socket and flip the circuit breaker....that was a wake up call for me.
It might get warm, but even if it does it's in free air so it wouldn't be doing much
Just what I was looking for, thanks for information!
My neighbor gave me one, any way to turn the light off?
Baseball bat
@@IndyFarmLife I got lucky it burned out
How long does it take to heat garage have two car garage and used the Patio boss Infrared heater and had it on under a hour and saw it was at 50 degrees when turned it off. It said can use in patio or garage it is 33 today now but didn't have it on for a couple hours at 1500 watts but wanna see Wednesday how much it will heat garage.
Does it make any noise ?
It is great, I added a heat temp controller and now acts with a thermostat
I have 2 in my 2 car garage. Seems like a waste of electricity. It does not warm you, it only burns you if you're try to go underneath it for warmth...
OK- may have to into that. Thanks for the info.
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
Garbage heats about 5ft Only in direct front at the most.
Adam is that the real indy of the 500? I'm in brownsburg to the west side. Just wondering but you sound like a fellow hoosier.
Hey Jim, yes, the "Indy" in "Indy Farm Life" is for Indianapolis! Always nice to connect with locals! See you at the 500? Ha
@IndyFarmLife sweet I'm in brownsburg.
Well hey neighbor 👋
@@IndyFarmLife 👋
Mine stopped working after a few weeks of very light use. It’s now in the trash.
Can the bulbs be replaced? How?
Would it have been better to mount down low because heat rises
hot air rises, these are radiant heat. they heat objects up, not the air.
Do you have to mount it or can I just keep it on the floor???
Question, how large of an area will it heat? it's only 1500 watts, which is the size of a hair blow dryer???
Yep, a couple hair dryers/ heat guns do the same.
Will this work in 16x16 unheated shed.
How much has your electric bill went up while using this?
How much does it cost a month to run this
I have this exact heater and i love it. Good review
I bought one but only half of each quartz rod heats up? What's up with that?
Does it waste lots of electricity on the bill.
We got the same exact one and doesn't start Brand new out the box. Any suggestions?
If you can't exchange it, you could take the case apart, and with your $10 harbor freight multi-meter, you could check the resistance across the elements, or check that it's getting voltage. I take it the built-in light at least comes on? Maybe there's a fuse in the unit that blew? Be safe, and Good luck!
Is it electric efficient?
Thanks for the review
Hey! I have a 30x50 garage that I just built. Its a metal pole building that's not yet insulated. I'm wondering if I were to put one of these above just my work area, if I'd be warm enough to work out there when its around freezing temps this winter. Not concerned about heating the whole 30x50 space, just myself and the objects I'm working on. Thoughts?
You will definitely notice the warmth. My adivce would be to mount it as low/close to you as you can. I assume your ceilings are pretty tall. If it's 15ft in the air you won't feel it.
@@IndyFarmLife thanks! My ceiling is 10ft.
1500 watts What Amp? We have only 1955 15AMP service...will this work?
1500 watts is about the max output of a 15A 110V outlet. So a 15A circuit should handle it
@@IndyFarmLife Really? Sweet! Thank you!
i cant find it on amazon or anywhere else
Northern tool 🔥
@@PnwOnTour ty
Got it yesterday,plugged it in pulled the string, broke one of the heat bars and tripped the breaker
got a refund
Radiant... or better described is "resistance heat". All resistance heaters are 100percent efficient... It doesn't matter which one you buy. Having a fan with it.. or near it helps distribution. Mini splits are MUCH cheaper to run... and you get heat OR air conditioning. Splits are way more expensive to purchase.
This is great! Thank you
Does it make your bill go up higher?
Electric is a high cost heat source
where can you get new elements for this heater
Fleet farm
Nice hoodie. I live in Naples. :)
I gonna buy 1 for grandma in this Dec but in Thailand heater ppl don't use it no review also it's dangerous for old women skin ?
Hows the electric bill?? Im thinking about getting one
Like the heater. Looks a little hazardous the way you’ve got it hooked up!🤣I’m sure that’s temp for you videos.
I had 2 of these in my two car garage and it literally did nothing.
Seriously?
@@frankplancarte for real. I traded them off for some Milwaukee tools. Total crap
@Drakilicious what good does that do? And duh back at yourself. Rude.
how much electricity does it use
He said 1500w
@@Tinfoiledhat But how many amps? amps are directly related to energy use. watts are output
@@IndyFarmLife Energy is power over time. So, if the heater ran for two full hours per day, it would use 3 kwh.
i got two of them
$$$cha-ching. Cost to run versus payload is crap. They are good for short term use.
I'm living in my garage
Price at Walmart is 43.88.
How big is your garage? Thanks
Thank you for the fast response and review
What can expect from this heater in a 1 car garage - not insulated with the temperature outside in the 20's?
@@IndyFarmLife What if I was to install 2 heaters? Would that warm up the garage?
Would I be better off to install a 220V heater?@@IndyFarmLife
IDENTITY THEFT IS NOT A JOKE JIM! Millions of families suffer every year!
8
I bet it's not good on the power bill tho 🤣
It runs on regular 110 so it doesn't use much energy. l have one in the garage but you need to stand directly under it to feel heat.
Can you put on a table or ground