Just quickly; the length of the case/cartridge is 51mm on the 7.62 x 51mm, verses the overall length of the round being 71mm. I had to make a choice in the editing on if I should have marked the lines to indicate the case/cartridge length lines or the overall length If I marked the cartridge length, I'd get people saying that I put the lines in the wrong place. If I marked, as I have in this video, the overall length, I'd get other people saying the length is wrong. I could have used both but I didn't want to unnecessarily muddy the water for clear understanding of the bullets. So since the literal measurements are in the name (7.62 x 51mm), I decided to go with that.
A few of us, such as myself are firearm enthusiasts, so we would know what you are talking about. There's quite a few measurement diagrams for different calibers that show the overall length, case length, etc. If people are curious they could look at those.
^^ Good Vid as always (except for the small mistake with the overall Length of the Ammunition). For why it has more Power as the 7.62x51mm nowadays i would say three Factors are important: 1. The Propellant (we saw what the Change from the old Gunpowder to smokeless powder as Propellant had in an impact on the projectile velocity) 2. Better Barrel materials that can withstand the higher pressure with an more powerful Propellant 3. A better system to reduce weapon recoil (If anyone has ever shot with an 7.62 Assault Rifle you know what i mean) PS: As I was in the German Airforce i did shot with the H&K G3 and the MG3 which is using 7.62x51mm and the Recoil is noticeable higher that an 5.56x45 NATO. Now think of this with even more powerful Propellant...my poor Shoulder ;) ...especially if you fire burst or full auto
Ok so I'm going to assume that somewhere in your lore resurch you found a description of the cartridge what it looked like and what's it's made of because in the whole video you never mentioned anything about the cartridge other than weight a mention about thickness and its length. So let me elaborate I would like to point out a possibility that you may or may not have considered that is the cartridge itself has probably gone through changes as well not just the powder... etc Because I have no doubt the unsc did initiate such things for example you point out a weight difference between the current day cartridge and the halo version and say its the same well I submit that all the variances you make between the current day and halo ammunition can be accounted for through inivstiona with the cartridge. Eg: if the halo cartridge is not brass but a type of polymer that is lighter than brass and because it's not brass the normal loss of energy due to heat transfer in to the brass can be avoided putting more energy back in to accelerating the round...etc And if you say the polymer would melt or what have you the us is developing exactly what I am describing for there armed forces as we speak... so in conclusion I would say the reason halo ammunition could be more powerful is a combination of powder innovation and cartridge innovation to get the results depicted... anyway that's my opinion 🤪 still an interesting video lots of food for thought
When the standard issue weapon system of spacefaring humanity is a 32-60 round magazine of .308 NATO ammo firing at between 700-900 RPM out of a bullpup design with neural-laced targeting systems and the users make generous use of the full-auto mode, you know they will give any adversary a run for their money.
@digifalc0087 yeah, the bullet spread and recoil was obviously a game balance thing and the lore came after the fact. But it would be cool to see a Canon scene of it being represented. I think Tanaka firing dead-on headshots one-handed during the opening of Halo 5 is all we got right now lol
Yeah I would assume metallurgy 500 years in the future can make some pretty advanced materials, make the chamber and casing out of something that can handle high explosives with an internal recoil dampener
I always imagined they had plastic explosive with a piezoelectric primer instead of a traditional primer/powder combination and had strong barrels to complement that power
I agree, the UNSC weapons in Halo are very powerful and ridiculous. I always thought that the answer was because of technological advancements by the 26th century. It does makes sense that 500 years of technological advances in weaponry shows more power then what we have now. I agree, in reality you can't make anything like Halo human weapons. At least, not yet. The future is always in motion. But it's always good to be prepared.
@@madkabal plasma is definitely not a beam of light. and hard light is a special property of turning well light into a physical mass even though light does have mass its so minuscule we say it doesnt. Actually currently solid photon particles hvae been created just not to the same degree. These weapons are particle dilators that use an unexplained method to convert light mass into hard light for use as a projectile. This would presumably provide both the kinetic energy as with solid projectiles
Halo weapons are implausible for the fact they weren't designed by people having extensive experience with firearms. The AR's have nowhere for the bolt to reciprocate and pick up another projectile unless it uses an extremely elaborate bolt which is not out of the question. The pistols are mostly doable even though they are essentially magnum versions of the .50AE desert eagle round. The BR and DMR have the same issue of the AR but plausible otherwise. The Sniper is mostly based on a real firearm NTW-20. All of Infinite's new firearms are plausible. The SMG is more questionable.
One possible explanation that exists, and one I personally like using in my own material, is that the UNSC doesn't use any kind of gunpowder-variant at all. Instead, they could use a chemical-based propellent that is far more volatile then it's 20th and 21st century counterparts. An example of this would be the real-life C-4. Halo lore mentions both 'C-7 foaming explosive' and 'C-12 shaped charges', so it would not be surprising if the UNSC developed a high-powered chemical propellant for their bullets that outperformed the IRL stuff. Another, more ludicrous idea, is something like C2N14, or what is the demon brew more commonly known as "Azidoazide azide". Directly using something like that would be insane to the point of criminal stupidity, but a somewhat less dangerous compound of similar nature could 'hypothetically' be used for projectile weapons of the 26th century. An unexpected side-benefit of this possibility is that using a more high-powered propellant could also explain why UNSC guns seem a bit bulkier and more robust then their IRL counterparts. Having a more powerful bang inside the gun when you pull the trigger means needing to beef up the gun itself to handle it, logically! The apparent love-affair the UNSC has with titanium would also seem to support this concept. After all, which kind of gun is going to stand up better to being used as a melee weapon by an enhanced and augmented super-soldier: one made from steel, or one from titanium? =^x^=
Chemical composition of the propellant doesn’t make the round more powerful though…if the propellant is more powerful and causes the round to travel at a higher velocity then the round will be more powerful but if the round travels at the same velocity as another round with equal mass then regardless of whatever propellant was used it will have the same kinetic energy…and the assault rifles muzzle velocity is roughly the same as a real life 7.62 round so if we ignore the weird mass discrepancy like he said then they should be the same
My head cannon has always been that the bulky look of the ma5 is because the gun it's self is armored. so that a single plasma burst or similar doesn't disable the soldiers weapon. The original deign looks as though It literally has armor paneling on it, but I like the idea that it's also the withstand higher chamber pressures.
@@ExtremeSportsFails True, which is why I tend to ignore things like muzzle velocity for video game stats. Most of the time, they're just talking out of their rear-ends. If the propellant is a more powerful variant then IRL, and the rounds hit harder, then there's no way they would have the same muzzle velocity as IRL rounds. Ergo, they 'must' have a higher MV then IRL bullets and the listed stats are false. Simple logic. =^x^=
@@tsamoka6496 agreed so personally I think analysis like this is kinda silly bc it ends up being speculation and imagination anyway as it should be bc it’s sci fi
@@ExtremeSportsFails The flip-side of that is that sometimes things in scifi can become real, or inspire advances in unexpected places. In the same vein of this video, I wonder if bullets using a chemical/liquid propellant could be made IRl, and how it would work. Maybe even actually using something like C-4 or some other plastic explosive... =^x^=
Considering at present time, SIG Sauer just won the US military next gen rifle, chambered in 6.8x51mm, it wouldn't shock me in the slightest that the UNSC rounds would be more powerful. For context, the .277 SIG Fury (6.8x51mm) with the Hybrid stainless steel/brass case has a standard pressure for military use (only) of 80,000 PSI. Standard 7.62x51mm is around 60,000 PSI. That huge increase will allow the 6.8mm bullet to leave a 16" barrel at 2950 feet per second. There is talks that the hybrid case can be max loaded safely to 105,000 PSI. Granted you would be eroding the barrel much faster. So it is quite possible the future rounds are well more powerful than modern day with better design in case materials.
@@WolfeSaber9933 that's because the bullet casing only transfer half as much heat compared to brass ammo (means more energy can be used by propellant to burn more efficiently), so with 10% less powder in same ammo pressure they can achieve same performance to their brass ammo equivalent.
First off sig Sauer won the bid to replace the SAW (squad automatic weapon) not the standard rifle.(will they ever replace the M16 platform that remains to be seen) second whether we will actually see SIG Sauer's new squad weapon ever in us troops hands is an entirely different deal do you know how many "replacements for the m16/m4" the us military has fielded and liked over the years yet never see combat. I wouldn't get your hopes up on it. They just finally managed to start actually replacing the M9 and that's still going to take years to fully implement.
As an addition to this, there is bullet material. The way one defeats armor is with speed, not size. So, in theory, it could be that the bullets themselves are made out of a much harder, but much lighter, material allowing for increased velocities with the same powders and allowing much better penetrative power
That’s very possible especially since the unsc made a tank that was only 33 tons when compared to it’s predecessor which was the m808 scorpion which was 66 tons. They are roughly the same size but the m820 uses a bigger gun and still has the same survivability
true, they use a "gel based propellent" and even now the only thing stopping us from using titanium bullets jacketed with copper to save the rifling is cost. If we found a planet(s) with MASSIVE amounts of titanium its very likely that we would start doing this.
@@jonathanpfeffer3716 actually you don't need density, speed matters way more. We are talking about energy via velocity not mass. its the same reason a .220 swift fmj outperforms a round like 30-06 AP when shot at armored steel despite being a 55 grain bullet. The way to gain speed and penetration is with lighter harder materials
so what of it fictional its just idea a idea having released having ideas having fictional is our future seems idiot idea at the moment but in future its great idea most of people just laughed because all they can do is laugh
One of the authors I enjoy did his best to make his ships sound. He realized he fucked up when a game was being developed based on his novels, and was politely told that his ships have the density of.. smoke, lol. In later editions of those novels the size of the ships were adjusted, though artifacts of the original mass and volume remained. Fourth edition, paper back edition of _On Basilisk Station_ page 397 listed the mass and dimensions of an anti-ship missile. The missile was 70 tons and had a length of 10 meters. The ship was HMS Fearless, a Courageous-class Light Cruiser, she had the length of 389 meters, with a mass of 88,250 tons. The mass of all missiles in her magazines (assuming she carried 8 missiles per tube for her 18 tubes) would add over 10,000 more tons. That's assuming the 88,250 tons wasn't already counting the 10,000+ tons from the missiles. Yeah, the math still doesn't work, lol. Missile sizes needed to be reduced beyond a mere 70 tons per... but, it's what it is, live and learn, right?
Oh my god, dude. No. This guy has to ignore real science to make some of his asinine suppositions. He waffled about projectile weights and hardening for minutes when 30 seconds on Google could have led him to a ballistic calculator and confirmed with nothing but the velocity and the energy that the projectile weight is 147 grains. That's literally 1969 M80 Ball. ((If that means nothing to you, it's the most widely used, widely studied, and widely available .308 derived cartridge on the planet. And also comically outdated in 2022.) Then he spent all this time screeching about magical propellants when not only is M80 perfectly capable of getting to 2970FPS with nothing but a 26" barrel, but M80 isn't even particularly hot as 7.62x51 ammunition goes. Then he went on to talk about guns firing in a vacuum when the re is no ambient air anywhere near the propellant when the weapon fires, to where you can fire guns underwater perfectly fine. GUNS DO NOT NEED AIR TO FIRE. The Soviets put aircraft cannons on their space stations and they worked fine in a vacuum.
This might be a stupid question, but is it possible the UNSC is using a variation of ETC (Electrothermal Chemical) Ignition? I understand research is being done in this field for tank and CIWS rounds, however there is no mention of this technology being unable to be sized down to small arms application.
They probably use better propellant mixture with much higher pressure that increase their bullet velocity up to 42% (doubling their kinetic energy) just like SIG FURY Hybrid Ammunition Technology implemented on XM5/M5 Rifle & XM250/M250 Automatic Rifle.
@@makbar59 unless you make it as self-powered plasma primer or at very least with very dense hot swappable power source I don't see ir will get widespread use in small arms technology SIG FURY HYBRID ammunition is much more practical in use (for now) without risking your rifle to completely brick itself because of electronic jammers or EMP.
@@zidniafifamani2378 We are really rapidly coming to the point where solid state batteries could make prototypes a reality. In the Halo setting a button battery as a backup to the a gun's internal battery would easily be possible and reliable. It's not as complicated and weak to an EMP. Basically the operation would remain the same except the firing pin would just be completing a circuit.
@@zidniafifamani2378 My dude... The United States military developed a prototype 120mm ETC gun variant of the M256, the XM291, almost 22 years ago now and was capable of nearly 40% increase in muzzle energy. And it has a higher muzzle velocity than proposed 140mm guns. ...If you think ETC technology isn't viable 500 years from now... I don't know what to tell you. First of all, the firearms in Halo have electronics embedded in them coming out the wazoo with things like ammunition counters, Smart-Links, etc. Secondly, you don't need a ridiculous amount of electrical power to generate these plasma ignitions. Thirdly, *_explosively generated plasmas are a thing._* So, yes, you could generate these even without electronics if you wanted to. Fourthly, ETC guns can easily be backwards compatible with conventional ammunition. Literally all this take to get off the ground and be viable is new primer technology utilizing explosively generated plasma ignition and suddenly the ammunition you have is almost 40% more capable overnight without changing anything else. Might have issues with chamber pressures and whatnot, but that's fixable and worth dealing with for the added muzzle energy. If we can't develop that 500 years from now when we've *_figured out faster-than-light travel and anti-gravity,_* then humanity *_deserves_* extinction.
All the solutions you've offered would have a more significant change to muzzle velocity, which, while the Halo 7.62 is faster (and seems to have a longer propellant chamber), it's not nearly enough of a difference to explain the significant difference in impact energy. I would sooner look at the round composition itself. If the round is harder and has less deformation, that could cause more energy to be delivered through impact and less wounding through fragmentation and tumbling. We know that's it's a full metal jacket round, but it doesn't specify what that jacket, or perhaps more importantly, the core underneath, is made of. The jacket is visible in the art and appears to be in the same copper/bronze/zinc family of alloys that such rounds are made of nowadays. But the core could be anything we want, and the UNSC has a long-standing love affair with a very particular metal that would be the perfect choice for this: Titanium A. This is used in their body armor, in their vehicles, in their ships. It's difficult to go more than five feet in any UNSC armory without walking past at least a dozen things made of titanium A. This is an incredibly hard metal that deforms only under immense amounts of stress. If you want to make a round that, all other factors being roughly equal, delivers as much pure energy as possible, titanium A would be a very good choice What I find even more interesting is how this informs their tactics. The singular focus on energy makes me think body armor has reached a point that even conventional methods for defeating it like velocity and destructible jackets are insufficient to fully penetrate the plate. So their solution is to bore as deeply as possible with the jacket, then deliver so much energy from the core round that it deforms and buckles under multiple hits, opting instead to destroy the plate entirely rather than penetrate a small part of it. This would also deliver an incredible amount of shock to the wearer, knocking them off their feet and potentially even scrambling their organs or causing internal bleeding from the pressure. If we can assume Insurrectionists then got their hands on this same type of ammo by raiding supply dumps, then we see the following response to having this used against them in the MJOLNIR project: Multiple layers of trauma pads, gels, and other impact-resistant materials to reduce shock to the wearer, allowing them to respond more quickly to being hit
It could also be a tungsten core as the UNSC is fond of using tungsten for projectiles. Titanium A may be more likely due to the oddly light weight of the rounds though.
And the introduction of kinetic rounds that specifically effect vehicles and shields more effectively, meaning there might be other elements to the core or even jackets themselves The explosive and Armor piercing rounds can be combined or held separately, not knew to us, but very different in halo where it’s more like a timed fuse explosive rather than bang then boom, it’s acts more like a bang wait then boom, also rail guns have proximity fuses But the use of brute force rather than penetration makes for a more “cleaner” kill Less fragmentation and more scrambled intervals mean less blood from each wound behind armor, though against no armor the bullets shred flesh and bone. Then there is the underwhelming tank ammunition caliber and this all begins to make more sense, those rounds should not do as much damage as seen in books and games, but yet they hit with the force of a derailed train with explosives Advanced tech means advancements in existing tech as well, though practicality is up to ones own mindset
I actually really like the ideas that have come up here, being that the bullet composition was the main thing changed and that the body armor advancements were to such a high degree that the goal was internal damage rather than puncturing the armor. I think that theory alone would explain a lot of certain game mechanics like how projectiles affect targets. The other theory I really liked was the one mentioned in the video above shrunken down rail gun systems implemented into the small arms used. Now, while I love just about all of the possible explanations for this question, I think more than likely that in universe it would be a combination of our proposed answers rather than just one.
@@predatormark2847 Yeah, generally with real world specialty rounds like AP you'll see some kind of colored tip, which is why I didn't consider it based on the art. Do you know how their statistics are measured? It seems like that point energy is kind of an oversimplification given the other effects you're including
@@icarusgaming6269 well railguns are just super fast bullets/slugs Whose to say they call gunpowder due to trend rather than what we know it as, for all we know it could be an explosive gel that was mischarcterized by the common soldier But I’m getting ahead of my self, you bring up a valid point, but more often it’s the guns that show the indicator of what kind of rounds your dealing with, not the ammunition it self for some reason
Advances in metallurgy would mean a stronger barrel that can stand higher PSI allowing the use of compounds that would blow a modem gun to pieces. So you don’t need more propellant giving a lighter round with more punch, you can see this in the modern world with things like how fast bomb fragments can travel.
I would have assumed this. Better Metals and build, can support higher pressures. Putting more force into the round that itself is made of better metals making it a stronger overall package.
I always imagine UNSC infantry engaging from further away distance wise than the Covenant. I feel like plasma rifles/pistols couldn’t keep up with the range irl of UNSC weaponry.
The covenant species [for the most part ] have greater natural mobility and even better senses than humans. Plus vehicular transport mobility maybe in favour of the Covenant. My pervious points may explain why covenant can usually get into their preferred combat range. Or more reasonably. I think the Halo franchise is yet another example of sci-if being obsessed with short to close range gun fights and melee combat, lol.
@@Reyma777 you have a point there. I think irl the goal would be for the covenant to get as close as possible then engage with their supper or shielding/physical attributes while the UNSC would have to engage at least if foot from a distance as infantry.
Thing is - the plasma weapons the Covenant use home into targets so they have a slightly better effective range than you might think. This happens in game slightly and is likely more obvious in the lore because they dont have to deal with game balance. So even at long ranges aslong as they got a enemy infront of them the round will eventually drift into them - provided they dont move of course. But yeah they seem to benefit more from closer range combat than ballistics, I imagine that came along from shields making plasma weapons a go too besides the compact nature and destructive capability. Abit like Star Wars were they made concessions in terms of effective range for weapon damage, compatibility, and economic viability. Not to mention the agility of their species - its no wonder that all true long range Covenant weapons use some sort of physical round - the Needler Rifle uses blamite, Beam Rifle shoots a high energy stream of particles, Carbine shoots radioactive slugs, etc etc - the Focus Rifle is the rare exception but uses a continuous high focus beam of plasma that was phased out due to the many obvious draw backs Also impaling humans with a sword is fun, cant forge tthat
@@Reyma777 False. The covenant species don’t have any significant physical advantages over humans, besides Brutes, Elites, Drones & Skirmishers. That’s a myth perpetuated by people who played into the “human weak” trope present in science fiction. Humans are more than capable of dealing with grunts and jackals. The only problem is the covenants vehicular mobility, that’s the real issue.
Higher chamber pressures. Look into the new "6.8X51" being adopted by the army. The USArmy loading makes near 80K PSI High pressure 5.56 makes around 65-66K PSI.
Hearing the theory of potential accelerators in UNSC weapons makes me think about how cool the guns of Mass Effect are. Would love a breakdown of those.
3:20 I have the feeling that who ever wrote this just looked at the weight of the projectile and not the overall weight of the bullet. Because the projectile of an 7.62x51 NATO can weight between 9,4 to 11,66 grams (Or 145 to 180 grain). As for the more KE of the round: The new rifle for the US Army, the XM5, uses new ammunition with extreme high gas pressures (~80.000 Psi). With the new materials and metallurgy of the UNSC in the years of 2500 I would think that they did the same. But, we all know how the creators of Halo quite often have trouble keeping anything constant in their world creation.
As someone who is a fan of both Star Wars Legends (F*ck Disney) and Warhammer 40K, you guys are one of the more consistent sci-fi universe out there. Most of the inconsistencies (that I've encountered) tend to be with the abilities of the Spartans and stronger Covenant races. I've read accounts where Spartans basically walk through Covenant soldiers: out maneuvering Elites, overpowering Brutes, and calculating the fire patterns of dozens of Grunts to dodge their attacks And then in First Strike, Chief has to be incredibly cautious against a squad of Grunts because his shields were disabled, and is nearly strangled to death by a Brute. Halo's got it's inconsistencies, but there are far worse.
there's also a key feature of unsc weapons: they are bullpups that have extra long barrels, longer even then modern bullpups. the bullets have time to accelerate for longer and faster to reach a higher muzzle velocity, hence, greater kinetic energy delivery.
All other things being equal, increasing barrel length can increase velocity to a point. Pressure will peak at a certain point in the barrel and then drop off. From that peak, extra barrel length is just friction. A round whose powder burn is not optimized for a longer barrel will not benefit.
The rounds can be the same dimension as today. I think the difference has to be in the propellant tech used, since that's what impacts the velocity of the steel.
@@The_Tactical_Wook sorry to be the uhm akshually comment goblin but modern military rounds usually don't have lead in them they have a hardened steel penetrator usually made of tool steel and a copper jacket for good rifling engagement, off the shelf walmart rounds for sure have lead since it's about a third the cost
I can see the booster rail on the sniper possibly as the speed the round could be accelerated to have that trade smoke trail might be the by-product of high friction in the atmosphere upon leaving the barrel considering the length of the barrel, but on smaller ARs and BRs I can't see it either. Though possibly on the Marksmen rifle and maybe the BR only because both have a light smoke trail when you pull the trigger, but they don't last as long so the speed isn't as high. Again, that's probably not really feasible like you said as even the power requirements to power up such a system would drain the batteries faster unless the magazine came with a built-in battery and had a port for it to connect to when you put in a fresh magazine. But judging by the size of the magazines they are standard issue snap in and quick release.
If the battery idea is accurate, they could have a plug similar to our smartphones. The battery could be very small as well, batteries today can be very tiny. Since we’re also talking over 500 years in the future, it’s possible that things like batteries and connecters could be vastly different and simple today. I mean there’s charging pads for smartphones today, so that concept of technology could be what is used.
I think more realistically the smoke trail is from either an incindiary or tracer loading, or a byproduct of the new powder being used. I have old incindiary 303 rounds from WW2 that use white phosphorus and they leave a smoke trail that looks a lot like the ones that the S7 has in the game
As I recall, the Halopedia entry on the AR says "a round with the same dimensions as 7.62 NATO". So not exactly the same. Haven't watched through to see if you mentioned that. And I love how the Magnum fires a round closer to .500 S&W than the .50 AE of the Desert Eagle.
Most of it is all imagination, (albeit based in reality) but it is through using our imagination and art that we create new. I am excited for the future if we can make it.
There is literally no science. In fact the video has to ignore some actual science to make some of its suppositions. Guns do not need air to fire. You can shoot underwater. No magical oxidizers needed. If you punch the data into a ballistic calculator you can see that the projectile weight is 147gr, which is the projectile weight of M80 ball. Hardening has nothing to do with weight. It's literally the process of making something hard. In this case, heat treating a mild steel core for a bullet to make it penetrate armor better. 1969 era M80 Ball will give you 2970FPS if you fire it out of a 26" barrel. Please stop encouraging this.
Just wanted to say: it's great to see you back here, and I'm glad you got the chance to reset a little bit. Love your content, and keep on making whatever videos you want ✊✊✊
When you think about it, it makes some sense since blue team were able to fire their guns whilst in space, where due to the advancements in primer technology and powder technology whilst adding both an airtight seal as well as rail projectors would enable the use of firearms in the vacuum of space, not only that but given their momentum, they could have been issued a low pressure round to ensure the least amount of recoil
It's possible that the weapons of the UNSC are ElectroThermal Chemical (ETC) weapons, which have quicker (and more complete) propellant burn. (Edit: due to the ignition method, which fires plasma into the propellant, rather than using a chemical-based explosive primer) This doesn't preclude your theories, though; it's entirely possible that they use a futuretech propellant mix and/or have booster rails.
They could also be ETC (Electric Thermal Chemical) weapons. They are almost identical to modern weapons, but instead of using a chemical reaction to ignite the gunpowder, they use plasma which is much more powerful and uniform. Tests done on tank cannons are much more consistent than the normal rounds, and ETC guns allow a bullet to be fired at rail gun speeds with only a fraction of the electricity needed. Because the plasma is so powerful, much more dense gunpowder can be used that a normal primer would fail to ignite.
I remember seeing a little bit about new types of weapons that tanks could potentially use in the near future, weapons like ETC cannons or CLG guns seems to be the most likely choices since they pretty much function like a traditional firearm but offering much more energy for the round to use either by changing the propellant to a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen like in the CLGs case or using a plasma ignitor to more evenly and efficiently ignite a more traditional propellant in the ETCs case in both cases though the ammunition and the weapon itself stays more or less the same, personally I'm more in favor of the ETC technology being used in UNSC firearms seeing how the increase in performance of the 7.62x51 Nato is more in line with the kind or improved performance ETC cannons are supposed to provide tanks, at least with the figures I've seen
Setting aside the scuffed loaded weapon weight, modern .308 handloads can get 3000 fps from a 24 inch barrel with a 150 grain bullet (military weight), still within safe pressures. Halo's Assault rifle has a 24 inch barrel, so unless the bullet is heavier than 150 grains, it's velocity in game is indeed possible with modern propellants.
I would agree, but there weren't hundreds of years of arms raves. Prior to the Insurrection (which was immediately before the human-covenant war), there was well over a hundred years of peace. However, the Insurrection would definitely result in an arms race, especially as that seems to be when the MAC was developed.
I like the mention of rail boosters. That was a bit of lore in the game series, section 8 and section 8 prejudice. In that series the guns used standard cased rounds with rail gun tech to boost bullet velocity.
Nice seeing a good take on this. I had debated with people online who think the ammunition is the same or outdated not knowing the materials, chemical & possible other advances in ignition systems maybe. That's why I believe the UNSC counterparts are more advanced, this could explain in the series (which I hate) why the rebels are using AKs with ammo with half or less the potential energy per bullet ratio to take on a shielded elite.
The joys of somebody going on and on about how the UNSC guns are terrible because of the round size, or the Scorpion tank is awful because of the 90mm shell size. Like, we just know the size. They don't tell us the propellants of them, the materials, etc. It could be a 90mm shell with a much more powerful launch system, hitting harder and thus making it work.
If I recall correctly when watching Halo: Nightfall when Locke is on the planet with the worms that hunt technology it’s heavily implied if not stated the AR can not fire without being powered on. I don’t know enough about ballistics or weapons to hypothesize anything, but it stood out to me.
Most weapons used by the UNSC don't have sights that are usable without the use of heads up display. Meaning something has to be turned on in the rifle and on the user's hud in order to aim. The rifle also has a electronic ammo counter for any magazines on your body, a electronic ammo display for ammo loaded, and random indicator lights on the gun. Trying to use the weapon would likely draw in more attention from anti-electric aliens.
Using a ballistic calculator, I have determined that the numbers given for velocity match the muzzle energy if you account for a 147 grain bullet. The magic here is nothing more than simply turning up the velocity with a hotter propellent charge than is currently the NATO standard. And to address the disparity with cartridge weight: Polymer casings. Polymer cased ammo is significantly lighter than brass cased ammo (and may have increased internal dimensions to boot) . But these 2 factors would drive into why the rifles in Halo are beefed up. A large function of brass casings in a gun is also heat dissipation. With polymer, that heat conducts to the chamber and barrel much more quickly, so The MA5 series of rifles are either equipped with a cooling system or are just overbuilt to soak up the heat from automatic fire.
Nor are they illegal in the UK, provided you have a Shotgun Certificate. The only stipulation is that the bore of the shotgun is no larger than 2 inches and (when hunting deer exclusively) the gauge may be no smaller than 12 bore shooting AAA or larger shot (British scale, slightly larger than size T buckshot on the US scale), except in Scotland where the minimum is SSG shot (slightly smaller than the US #2 Buck). In England and Wales, killing badgers allows a gauge as small as 20 bore.
@@Kingpin_Gaming_UK I’m surprised by the bore minimum. I’ve taken several deer with a 20 gauge, and I’ve heard of people using .410(not sure if that’s used at all in Europe?)
Sorry, I meant for Combat Purposes. The last time I checked (although I admit that may be based on outdated information), the 8 Gauge was not to be used in combat. My apologies if this is incorrect.
My head canon has always been the chemical propellant change, and the em booster, em booster is best for handheld because you can much more easily add some more energy to the bullet than get the bullet to the same speed with the same size gun.
The SIG-Sauer MCX Spear (or M5 in US military phrasing) could be an example here. It fires a 6.8x51mm round. The unique part is that there is a "training" round that is pretty standard. However, it also fires a "hybrid" round that has a stainless steel base and brass body. This allows the round to fire at significantly higher pressures that an all-brass casing can't handle (80,000 PSI, if I remember correctly). This means that, while both bullets have the same size, they presumably have substantially different velocities. While I am not sure where that additional velocity comes from (I would assume chemical composition of the powder), it demonstrates that a real-world round can see improvements in velocity without changing the size.
Clearly you are bad at making ammo then... A 50m/s difference in speed is nothing, go and look up velocities on cartridges from a given calibre and you will see that their are much wider variations in speed than that.
@@harrybuttery2447 bad no, expert no. I dont strive to make top of the line ammo for extreme distance shots. I just make what i need for my given task.
Great analysis, you have come a long way in this particular subject. The 7.62 of the 2550s isn't absurdly higher performing in comparison to modern ammunition. I reload my own (albeit hot) and regularly exceed the muzzle velocity outlined in 2550 ammunition. What baffles me however, is that with the advanced metallurgy of the UNSC, they still rely on brass cases. At some point, pressure will exceed what a thin wall of brass can take and will split, usually explosively, near the primer pocket to the rear of the case. In fact, the new 6.8x51mm developed for the US Army reinforces the primer pocket with a steel back end that the rest of the brass case is pressed into. This allows much hotter loads which is intended to retain enough velocity to break ceramic body armor out of a relatively short barrel. The UNSC however, should be using some inconceivably hard cases which are capable of withstanding immense chamber pressures that would be indicative of 500 years of ballistic development. 3000 fps just seems underwhelming for a society that can FTL travel.
my head canon is they use plastic explosives as propellant since IRL they only don't because of the insane pressure makes the added barrel thickness not worth the benefit but in halo they can make power armor so they've likely got material fabrication down to a T making the current issues non factors
We could be looking at a hybrid cartridge like the 6.8x51. Instead of a 6mm round its still a 7.62 but using a better propellant and hybrid case. Also what about pulse rifles? Instead of a firing pin its an electronic igniter, that could potentially propel the round at a higher velocity?
I don't remember the Remington E-tronX boasting anything like that. I'm sure marketing would hype it to death if it boosted pressures even 5% more than traditional explosive priming.
You pick the best music for these videos. Your low tone mixed with the knowledge paired with sci-do theory is enhanced by the music choice. It makes me remember why I love this series. Thank you, I’m happy you love this franchise. 🤜
I like the guidelines. As a firearms guy, it's likely that they're using some new kind of projectile which increases the energy transfer from the bullet to the object it's hitting. That would make sense... But they're literally just still slinging lead and tungsten. However, there's always new advancements in projectile design that increases the energy released into the target. Not to mention powder advancements which can increase pressure and velocity, and maybe an advancement in casing strength which can allow them to be loaded to higher pressures. No amount of science can explain how the AR magazine works though lol
Here's my thought: They have a propellant so massively powerful compared to ours, they were able to reduce each bullet to just 9 grams, while still increasing the kinetic energy. Basically, it ways roughly 1/3 as much as modern equivalent rounds, but the bullets fly 3x faster so it works out. This doesn't account for the muzzle velocity being too low, but maybe they're hybrid rounds that have some lingering propellant attached to the bullet itself that ignites after the bullet leaves the muzzle. Like a second-stage booster sort of thing. While admittedly a bit far fetched, it's fairly reasonable compared to alternatives, and even would explain why the accuracy for the assault rifle is so ABYSMALLY low, as the second-stage boost would undoubtedly throw the trajectory off. I dunno, just a thought.
or perhaps the rounds are hybrid plastic and powder propellant's since they've got such advanced material fabrication the barrel's could handle the pressure with blowing up
Halo was the favorite gaming franchise of my brother an its really growing on me. I have become facinated with your channel and halo as a gun. hope you all have a good day may you have luck!
Honestly, for my own writing I've been of the mind of using coil gun assist or even primary propulsion while a powder charge is used as a 'lift' charge to get initial velocity. So I like the idea that this may be one of the hidden possibilities (perhaps in the mind of Joe Staten and never written down properly as projects moved on) for increased power. That said, alongside changes in propellent composition, it could also be physically formed differently in such a way that while volume taken up by the powder charge isn't any different it provides a more energetic reaction. Something with more micro surface area that increases pressure, alongside metallurgic advancements allowing for comparatively high chamber pressures without heavily increased wear and tear on the internals as well as buffering systems that keep recoil from being a major issue. There's also the with the increased weight factor, lead might not be the metal being used for the bullet itself. Even today brass rounds are on the market for big game (elk and similar) hunting and more environmentally friendly ammunition. Though the former was achieved because it was fond that even at 'standard' powder charges, the increased weight of the bullet imparted significantly more energy. The main body of the bullet could be brass while there's a softer tip to allow for some moderate expansion. Though without a soft tip, it already makes the entire round a potentially armor piercing round as it's stated to be. Then not requiring a core within the round itself.
@@praetorianstride5948 I mostly get my inspirations for working off of this sort of thing is by having something put in front of me and be made to think about it. I love having my brain roll on these things but I don't think to hard about it until Someone like 00 says "Well... This could be why." basically. I'm a better in collaboration than anything. I greatly appreciate the compliment, man. ^_^
I always thought it was interesting that the UNSC doesnt have pulse guns like the Colonial Marines from Aliens or the Mobile Infantry in the film sequels. I mean how does the weapons marines carry not change much but the fact theyre going planet to planet fighting an advanced alien race is the name of the game or warfare in this case.
It’s because Bungie threw together the world and just set the start date 2550s on a whim. For comparison Star Trek is 2400. Really the UNSC is humanity in a 100 - 200 years with some 80s sci fi ascetics. Not half a millennia in the future and we still have machine guns.
@@or6397 Funny you should mention Star Trek, that comparison actually highlights several reasons why the UNSC doesn't seem to develop very fast. 1. The Federation is an alliance that pools the collective knowledge and experience of over a hundred different species (some of which have already been in space at least a couple millennia before humanity showed up), while the UNSC is just humanity fumbling in the darkness by themselves. 2. The Federation has an abundance of enemy factions, both major and minor, that's shown to develop rapidly due to the constant arms race with competitors. The UNSC, by contrast, has no such external pressures to develop and has been established to have fallen into centuries of complacency because of it.
@@vegeta002 & wasn't til the Covenant came knocking they were forced to play catchup. Took humanity trillions of credits to go from having bulky suits with wires everywhere that would barely lifted a crate in logistics to now full blown OP assault mech suits that would crush an elephant's head by looking at it in just 25 years all thanks to the cultural & political pressure from Covenant.
@@tristanbackup2536 There's a UNSC soldier that credits the terrorists for giving them the kick up the arse they needed, since they were the reason the UNSC started to build-up their forces. If not for that, the UNSC would have been much smaller and less-prepared when the Covenant showed up and there wouldn't have been any Spartans.
Unless you know, to most 7.62 is 7.62. Even though x39 and x51 are both quite different. It's like in Deus Ex (the early 2000s original) with the assault rifle. Was probably _supposed_ to be 7.62x39 (Warsaw) but because they're game developers, not armourers it turned out to e 7.62x51 (NATO). And if anyone did care, it was too late and too much effort to change.
It's an easy answer for the small arms: _better propellants_ instead of modern ones. Essentially, the outside might be familiar to us, the _internal_ stuff isn't. There is this system called _Guns! Guns! Guns!_ that went into gun design, and as you advance across the ages, the better your propellants (and other bits like the barrel and receiver) get. While gun propellants haven't changed much in our current weapons (we're still largely using WW2/Cold War era propellants), the centuries ahead UNSC is using far more effective propellants that aren't Electrothermal Chemical (ETC), though the latter has the problem of being extremely limited in velocity (non-ETC propellants have a ceiling of 1.8km/s, while ETC propellants have a range between 2km/s to _4km/s_ in terms of velocity).
The UNSC 7.52x51 round probably has a tungsten core wrapped with lead and copper jacket. I was thinking the along the same lines about a rail gun boosting.
Wouldn't increasing the power of the propelet make the gun very uncomfortable to shoot for the reguler soilders of the unsc? Especially considering this is a fully automatic 308 round we are talking about basically? Id imagine it would be fine for spartans but for anyone else it would feel like they'd be getting kicked over and over in the shoulder. So out of all the possibilities the one the makes the most sense to me would be to hybrid design you talked about of the guns being both gas powered and magnetically enhanced, this way a reguler soilder can just turn off the magnetic booster making it a normal gun more or less, but a spartan can turn it on to make the round powerful.
That was my first thought when I read that the AR fires 7.62. The recoil would be insane in full auto out of a bullpup configuration but I remember reading a few times, and don't take this for gospel as I cannot provide any sources unfortunately. I remember reading that UNSC weapons utilize advanced recoil mitigation technologies.
@@BreakerXXIV Well depending on how they do it I suppose recoil mitigation technology isnt particularly super advanced. We have modern infantry weapons that have advanced recoil mitigation like the kriss vector. But given that the assult rifle would need to shoot an elites shield several times for the shield to be depleted im guessing the AR would need to be used on full auto to ever be effective against elite shields, but at the engagement ranges they would be using the AR its full auto setting would be WILDLY inaccurate for your average solider, even with advanced recoil mitigation. Even during the times of the Vietnam war I believe the m16 was most often used in (if not out right locked into) burst fire mode as using it in fully auto mode was bad at preserving the weapons hit per round fired ratio, where as burst preserved that ratio alot better.
Gas systems and barrel lengths help with recoil mitigation. For example: a 10.5 M4 and a 20inch M16A4. Both can accept and fire the same rounds, but it's generally agreed upon that the M16 has a softer recoil impulse due to a longer gas system (10.5 has a carbine length and M16 has a rifle length) and the barrel (more mass, means more weight to absorb the kick unless it's a pencil profile, but that's a different tangent). Given that a Halo AR is a bullpup with a 30 something inch barrel, I don't have hard time believing that standard grunts would be fine with it. That and if we go by the US Army's standards, weapon familiarity and proficiency is highly stressed, even for non combatant roles. So, I'd assume each grunt has been brought to the range with their rifle enough to be familiar know how the rifle performs
One Siri that I’ve always had ever since going back to the original halo combat evolved game is one reason why the ammunition is such high caliber could potentially be simply due to the fact that the humans have decided to compensate for their technological inferiority against the covenant and later on the banished by simply using sheer brute force as their counterbalance to the high levels of technology that the covenant utilize. The fact that the rounds seem to be more powerful I feel could be attributed to anything. From the propellant charge being used in the ammunition being some kind of different type of repellent to something else like for instance just the way the round is shaped or something.
I always wondered about this. I assumed the weapons firing systems were more powerful like miniature rails guns but couldn’t really do that with rapid fire weapons. But with future tech and material is more scientifically possible. I always wonder how guns are able to be fired in space since no oxygen and if they used an alternative to gunpowder. Also why’s didn’t the Unsc make their own version of plasma weapons by reverse engineering them. Seriously they managed to copy the shield technology. I thought they would do that to even the playing field. There’s also the promethium weapons surprise no trying to use ancient technology for a more powerful weapons and tech.
So the UNSC is trying and in some old lore pointed to the spartan laser being the products of those attempts. Plus theres also the fact that the newer frigates in the UNSC navy (scene in halo 4-infinite) are using similarly reversed engineered tech for their main weapons. But considering both in games and in cannon the UNSC didnt know how to recharge/reload those plasma weapons it may have been impossible or impractical to completely replicate them. Theres also the fact that it maybe to much of a power draw issue considering it takes the entire chest rig and a nuclear power plant in the back of mjolnir armor to recreate the shield tech which the Elite harnesses do more powerfully with a smaller generator.
From what i understand, any ordinary modern weapon can fire in space. But.. heat will build up in sustained fire because radiation is inefficient for cooling, any normal lubrication will boil off in vacuum leaving a gunky mess to potentially jam the weapon, and if there are any bare metal parts touching they will weld together because space is weird like that. The cartridges are self contained, they dont require any ambient air to operate, though if there's a gas operating mechanism on the weapon it may need some adjusting because its not fighting atmosphere. Plasma weapons were probably researched in the background, but projectile weapons are significantly simpler to produce when your entire war machine is geared towards making and using them. Promethian weapons werent encountered until after the war as far as i know, so they probably werent available to be examined or utilised.
You underestimate the power of _røck._ And if you can make a MAC gun the length of two airport airstrips, which can rip a Covenant supercarrier in half even with it’s shields, why bother with plasma?
@@decimation9780 The only credible argument against that would be not plasma but laser weaponry and its argument would be the concept a near unlimited ammo as long as you could remained fueled. Which would me less need for ammo storage and more room for fuel to power generators. But that wasn't a halo thing so much as beam/laser weaponry was minimal for the covenant. SO RETURN TO ROK.... ROK IS FINE.
@@Jiffedup Lasers are kinda shit, tbh. Think about it, to even have a weaponized energy weapon, aka a laser, you need something the size of a car in order for it to even have a good chance of killing someone. The there’s the issue of components, and a battery. You’d basically need a miniature nuclear reactor in your weapon in order to have a decent supply of energy, and the total time and resources spent on researching energy weapons just isn’t worth it. Meanwhile there’s the humble rock, which when big enough, can destroy planets, there’s the bonus of a big enough rock being impossible to destroy in time before it slams into whatever it was being aimed at, and you can harvest the big rocks to make even better rocks!
I'd say its probably a mixture of things, such as Electrothermal Chemical Ignition in place of primer, likely a titanium-alloy barrel for higher pressure propellant. This mixture of changes could offer a lighter round, increased powder load with additional oxidizer and higher velocity bullet. Considering the UNSC makes use of titanium alloy armor on its infantry, its gonna need a denser/harder material other than lead, assuming they don't use depleted uranium rounds.
I don't see why it wouldn't. Assuming it has a longer barrel than the assault rifle, it'd have more muzzle velocity. Thus more penetration. I don't know about it being canon though
@@WolfeSaber9933 no too dangerous. That's an ammo explosion that's too easy to produce. Added oxidizer yes but the powder is not that much more powerful than what we have today.
@@barrybend7189 There have been test using rocket fuel as a propallent for cannons. Also, some advance cannons in test use a plasma to lit the propallent instead of traditional design. This allows the round to be better stored since it needs the plasma to ignite, not be heat from incoming fire.
I saw the first episode of the halo show and I was confused as to how an ak47 didn’t do Jack sugar to the elites shields. Now here u are a few weeks later with this vid. Crazy timing was lol. Thanks dude. Good work
I think I know to what you are referencing. The length of the case is 51mm, verses the overall length of the round being 71mm. I agree, perhaps I should have marked the lines to indicate the case length and not the overall, but if I did that I'd get other people saying that I put the lines in the wrong place. So since the literal measurements are in the name (7.62 x 51mm), I decided to go with the former. Completely appreciate what you're getting at though. Kudos to you.
@@Installation00 Literally do both, 71mm overall, 51mm case length, 71.1 and 51.2, but curious pedantics at that point, and 12mm rim and 7.62mm bullet, 7.82 really, but again pedantics
I would like to put forward the idea, of gyrojet bullets (self propelling) it would explain the inherent innacuracy of the assault rifle, and the lower weight of the bullets, while the muzzle velocity remains the same, the kinetic energy would increase as the bullet propels itself.
When fighting the Covenant, there's no such thing as "ridiculously overpowered for a sidearm". There's only "Can we make this stronger?" and "Why haven't you made this stronger yet?".
at least part of the increased velocity, and therefore energy, is most likely due to the bullpup design. One of the main features that is seen as a strong point of bullpups is the fact that a longer barrel can be put into a overall shorter rifle. Based on the scale of the rifle in a spartan's hands, the barrel is likely 24-30" while the standard for 7.62 NATO is generally 20-24". Rifle rounds such as 7.62 NATO can see significant increases in velocity out of longer barrels. Therefore, with development in propellent over the hundreds of years before Halo takes place, combined with a longer barrel, should account for the increase in energy we see, based on the numbers from the lore and games.
They *_really shouldn't be,_* given that 7.62 rounds are outdated by our _modern-day standards,_ never mind 500 years in the future. I hear, over and over from other fans, that the UNSC has extremely advanced propellant systems, but I have seen literally no corroboration of that in any of the lore. It would be great if 343 confirmed that, for certain, so that shit makes a little more sense.
Yeah, the NGSW program, whether or not you agree with the decisions or not, has shown that we can go alot further with not just propellants, but also round structure as well. This being said, there is a limit to what you can get out of chemical propellants given the physics of expanding gas and such. We are not close to it in small arms, but we kinda have reached that performance limit in larger artillery pieces.
So one thing I think could explain both the decreased weight of the round and increased power is polymer cases. The military is already experimenting with this now. The change the internal dimension of the case to make the propelent burn more efficiently. Also they could be using a electronic/ plasma ignition system which are also being tested now. These both increase the velocity of the projectile because they allow the use of more advanced harder to ignite powders. Yet another option is that lighter bullets travel faster so if you went with the original weight of 9.3 grams or so but you used a light weight bullet in a polymer case that like we mentioned earlier is more efficient as well the velocity could be significantly increased without the use of much novel technology.
Just some fixes with some errors 1. The Chaingun (The M41 LAAG "Vulcan") fires a 12.7x99 AP rounds, which is the .50 BMG fired from our modern day Browning M2 Machine Gun. The Tri-Barrel helps with the Vulcans self cooling 2. The M6 Series fires the 12.7x40mm round, roughly around the same caliber to the IWI Desert Eagle, which fires the 12.7x39mm caliber round. It is a recoil powered
I applied the equation for KE when looking at the stats for the 7.62x51mm you have listed in the video. Both rounds weigh approximately 9.6 grams when you plug in the numbers.
A little late, and I might have missed this(winding down for the evening) but it could be a variation of a few things: better propellant allowing a better burn, heavier grain bullet(increases juel of energy significantly), and improvements in barrel technology which would allow much larger bullets, more powder, more chamber pressure, and allowable throat/barrel wear.
Have you also considered the use of Caseless Ammunition and an electronic firing mechanism to produce a more efficient and higher mussle velocity, that could possibly lead to a greater impact of kenetic energy to the target?
I always figured they perfected material science so much that the cases can withstand high pressure along with the chamber, barrel and bolt, I imagine these rounds can penetrate much more easily with higher velocity and hardened projectiles. The powder could be a form of nano-nitramine or whatever it was called that produces much more explosive force with less volume. However one limiting factor on firearms on earth is our own atmosphere isn't kind to hyper velocity projectiles causing them to burn up from friction but with material science you could make a round out of an exotic material that can withstand great amounts of heat. In space a firearm works but a major concern is cold-welding metal parts, heat accumulation since there is no air to cool the barrel and lubricant evaporation. You'd have to solve all 3 problems or use directed energy weapons solely in space.
There've been a few people who have noted some similar ideas. And while I love the idea of a hybrid coil accelerator system, you're probably correct that it is highly unlikely. But you did mention the "hardened" bit to the rounds and that leads me to believe that they are using a far more volatile powder or compound for their rounds. Someone noted that hardening the casing of rounds can increase the chamber pressure which leads to a higher velocity. So if you have a far more volatile powder in a hardened case, then it'd make something like a 7.62 x 51mm fly a damn sight faster and harder. I'd also like to think that the rounds are electronically fired. Instead of having a pin, you have a small arc or completed circuit that ignites the compound. Allowing the weapon to potentially cycle way WAY faster.
I like the idea of triple powder in small arms, plus the electromagnetic rail in barrel. Also, the materials the rounds are made from could be much lighter and denser. Its game lore.
It comes down to mass, density, velocity, and speciality ammunition (Armor piercing, explosive, tracer, etc). They could definitely be using a higher performance propellant which would increase velocity. They also could be using heavier metal for standard ammunition (tungsten or uranium core for more mass and armor penetration). Outside of those two options some sort of specialty ammunition might explain the damage output. Something unique like a mini shaped charge core with copper jacket - which would essentially make them plasma bullets? It could explain the frequency of sparking light when the rounds hit objects (normal bullets don’t spark often).
I personally think it's a combination of a more advanced propellant (They're on different worlds now too, so they could probably find other minerals and materials to improve propellants). I don't think they're MAC rounds because if they're using a propellant, I don't think the magnetic charge would be of much use, it make the propellant useless.
2:04 The m6 series isn't all that bad, imo. At least from the perspective if it was first introduced during ww1 or something and if I'm right about weights of projectiles. The M6G, the main magnum you see in games uses the 12.7x40mm cartridge. Though said cartridge is also sometimes stated to be 12.7x30mm which might be a difference in version or just another mistake on someone working on making the descriptions for things. The M6G is said to weigh about 2700g empty and about 2950g loaded with 8 cartridges. Assuming the magazine weighs as much as a m1911 magazine or about 80-100g each cartridge and the loaded weight is for all 8rds then it should be about 18.75-24g per cartridge. This is about the same range as a standard 45acp/11.43x23mm cartridge which can weigh between 18-23g. The M6G pistol isn't really pushing the bullet all that fast. With the 12.7x40mm M225 SAPHE muzzle velocity of about 427m/s. It should be noted that the M6G is frequently discussed as a Up-sized/Spartan sized pistol. Which is larger than the more common standard M6A, M6B, M6E, M6F, and especially fot the M6K and M6P which were for concealed carry. Such features are likely to include a longer barrel which would skew the capabilities of the 12.7x40/30mm cartridge toward being stronger than is typical. At the same time it isn't much of an improvement compared to a standard full-sized m1911 pistol which can manage velocities of 255-621m/s which is accomplished with a 6-14g projectile. The projectile weight is iffy to calculate given that we don't know how much the powder weighs, the material the casing is made from, and the style of primer used. I believe the projectile is pretty lightweight for the diameter and might actually be on the lighter end of 45acp cartridges. This based on the fact a full cartridge seems to weigh as much as a normal 45acp/11.43x23mm cartridge but has a larger circular area (12.7mm projectile has a circular area of about 126.7mm vs 11.43mm/45acp which has a circular area of about 102.6mm), the 12.7x40mm cartridge is longer than the 45acp/11.43x23mm cartridge (12.7mm has a case length which is about 7-17mm longer), and the magazine itself needs to be wider and integrate technology which allows for ammo counting. Assuming the 12.7x30/40mm cartridge is similar to the 45acp/11.43x23mm projectile or the entire cartridge in terms of weight. Then it would be pushing a 6-24g projectile at the listed 427m/s for a total muzzle energy of 547-1886j. This isn't too bad, but it also isn't great. Given that you could just carry an M1911 or better yet a pistol caliber carbine. For example the CMMG Resolute is only 2720g, can use 30rd magazines that fit 45acp, and would be much easier to use in combat given it's a rifle. If the UNSC is full of broke bitches they could go with a Hi-Point style carbine which can fit 20rd magazines. These carbines would allow for a longer barrel length and thus more muzzle velocity and thus more energy, higher velocity also allow for potentially better accuracy in environments with gravity, multiple points of contact allow for better awareness of the weapon when snap shooting, multiple points of contact allow for better recoil control, and easier mounting of accessories. Part of why the M1 carbine and P90 were encouraged as replacements for pistols like the m1911. Personally, I'm a fan of just getting an modernized/futuristic AR-15, M4, or a MK18. Seeing as in real life people have managed titanium and carbon fiber AR-15 rifles which only weigh 1800g though the Mk18 is 2670g and 1990s m4 is 2920g it's likely a futuristic version would weigh less and do more. With each 30rd magazine being about 380-480g and even lighter 60rd mags a basic loadout of 180rds is about 3.9-6kg. A lot less weight while potentially doing more than a M6G with 40-88rds for 4.7-5.5kg. Not to mention even from a pistol or short carbine barrel 223 and 5.56x45mm can push a 2.9-3.6g projectile at a velocity of 670-970.8m/s for a muzzle energy of 650-1696j. Which appears to be a lot better than the 427-450m/s the M7 SMG and likely the M20 SMG.
Adderall is a hell of a drug 😂 But in all seriousness, I believe the 12.7 x 40mm round is more akin to the 500 S&W Magnum cartridge (12.7 x 41mm). Like you said though, there's no confirmed grain weight, so we can only speculate how powerful it is. I would assume it's at least as powerful, if not more so than the Assault Rifle. As Master Chief has stated in lore that is almost as effective as the Assault Rifle in combat. And from what we know about how fast the Assault Rifle is, and what it's grain weight actually is. The video got it partially wrong, the lore in the books is somewhat inconsiderate with the weight. But we know it fires M118 FMJ-AP rounds. Which we know in the real world, M118 7.62 NATO rounds have a 175 grain projectile. With that in mind, plus the weapon having a canonical muzzle velocity of 2,970 Feet Per Second, it would produce over 3,400 Foot lbs of Energy! Which would make more sense, given that the Halo 7.62 NATO should be considerably more powerful than the real world equivalent. Since the current 6.8 x 51mm Hybrid Cartridge the Military recently adopted is considerably faster and more powerful than the previous 7.62 NATO. While I don't have the date for the Military's 135 and 140 grain Hybrid loads for the cartridge. The Civillian 150 grain Hybrid load in a 24 inch barrel has muzzle velocity of 3,120 Feet Per Second, and produces over 3,240 foot lbs of Energy. This exceeds the 30-06 in both speed and power, even with the same 150 grain projectile (2,910 FPS, 2,820 Foot lbs of Energy). So, with that in mind, it would make sense that the UNSC's M118 7.62 NATO round would be more powerful than what we currently use! Plus the UNSC uses Tungsten Armor Piercing Rounds in most of their Assault Rifle platforms. Meaning it should stand to reason that it would be able to punch through current level 4 Armor Plating! I think Halo Magnum would produce a muzzle energy equivalent to, or even exceeding the Assault Rifle. Especially since it uses armor piercing, high-explosive ammunition! As for 5.56 NATO being used by the UNSC. It would definitely have it's uses in certain situations, especially being faster and more poweful than any of their SMG's. But as a standard infantry Rifle, it would be almost useless against most Covenant infantry, especially Elites, Brutes, and Hunters. As even with a 24 inch barrel, the 5.56 might have a high velocity of 3,180+ FPS. But it would produce about 1,350 to 1,400 Foot lbs of Energy. Definitely better than some UNSC weapons, but overall would not be sufficient enough to pop Energy Shields or punch through Covenant body armor. It would be decently effective against Grunts, Jackals, and other less durable Covenant infantry. But even the Grunts can tank a couple, or even a few rounds from the Assault Rifle before dropping dead. Meaning it would take a decent some of rounds on target with 5.56 to drop them. Nevermind Elites or Brutes, whom would be able to eat an entire 30 Magazine and shrug it off like nothing. It would definitely be useful for Police or Security in the Halo Universe, but not so much for on the front lines other than in select situations. Not to mention with the UNSC's more advanced gun powder mixture when compared to ours, I think they would honestly get more use from newer, more poweful cartridges than exist. Such as 6.5 x 39mm Grendal, 6.8 x 43mm SPC, 6 x 38mm ARC, or the newer Russian 6.02 x 41mm Cartridge. Up the velocities on those already potent cartridges, and I honestly think they would be extremely useful to the UNSC! Especially since they already use other, lighter real life cartridges for their new weapons, such as the 6.5 x 48mm (6.5 Creedmoor) cartridge used in the VK78 Commando!
@@TheTGRproductions12.7x40mm might be closer to 500sw.mag. in size but I find it a bit unlikely to match it's power. As we do know the ultimate weight of a magazine and 8rds to be about 250g this means a cartridge weight somewhere between 18.75-23g assuming a magazine weight of 50-100g. Even if the pistol shoots both the bullet, brass, and casing (23g) with the given velocity of 405m/s you're still only getting a muzzle energy of 1886j. Far cry from the 2660-3907j of a 500sw.mag. revolver or match the MA5 at 3400j. You would probably need to shoot parts of the magazine and pistol in order to reach the 41.5g of projectile weight needed to reach 3400j of energy. The loaded weight of a 8rd magazine appears to be 250g meaning even if the gun shoots the bullet, casing, powder, primer, and 1/8th of the magazine with each shot you will only be moving 31.25g. So the pistol would need to shoot about 10.25g along with the bullet, casing, powder, primer, and parts of the magazine. Likely, a large part of the reason why the M6 pistol does damage similar to the MA5 rifle is a result of the APHE projectile. Which might allow the weapon to do similar damage to a futuristic 7.62x51mm. Though the amount of explosive filler in each cartridge is likely to be about as good as its armor piercing capability given than even 500sw.mag. can be stopped by some soft pistol rated armors. Having a hardened penetrator can help with penetration depth of harder materials, however, it's not the only factor. Seeing as slower 7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm steel core both tend to have less penetrating depth on steel and wood compared to a higher velocity lead core 223, 5.56x45mm or 5.45x39mm. The fact 12.7x40mm also has to house a fuse and explosive charge likely means that its penetrate, mass, and velocity have to take some level of compromise. To me this indicates that the gear and armor worn by many Covenant is likely about as strong as typical flak/pistol armor as they are much more reliant on energy shields. Further potential evidence is the fact M7 and M9 SMGs are capable of downing Covenant despite using a very small and probably weak cartridge that only has a velocity of 427-450m/s far slower than the 600-735m/s of 5.6x30mm and 716-933m/s of 5.7x28mm. Let alone the 750-940m/s of a 5.56x45mm pistol or carbine. While I can agree that replacing the MA5 rifle with a weaker cartridge my thoughts regarding the use of a 5.56x45mm carbine/pistol/smg/pdw isn't as a replacement for the 7.62x51mm MA5 Assault rifle. Rather a replacement for the M7 and M9 Caseless SMGs, M6 Magnum pistols, M20 PDW, etc. Precedent for this exists in the form of the US Airforce GAU-5A Aircrew Self Defense Weapon, US m1 Carbine across all branches of US and many Allied forces in ww2, AKS-74U among Russian tankers and Pilots, P90/MP7 during the PDW trials, Artillery carbines since the 1600s, and so on. As it stands an AR-15 style carbine/pistol/smg/pdw with 180rds is about 3.9-6kg. With Halo's M6G pistol loadout of 40-88rds being 4.7-5.5kg and M7/M9 SMG loadout with 180rds is about 6kg. Futuristic alloys, better powders, and potential caseless ammo would likely increase the capabilities of the 5.56x45mm weapon system. Potentially allowing it to punch about it's weight class would suggest and given more soldiers, sailors, and airmen the capability to combat covenant and forerunners a bit better.
The obvious answer is they just increased the operating pressure. The new 6.8x51 operates at 80ksi vs the 55ksi for the 7.62x51. Also I believe the AR has something like a 30in barrel. Add those two things together and you could get that bullet moving much faster.
One thing you forgot to go over is the casing itself. Make it lighter and less thermally conductive. This will transfer more of the energy to the round instead of heating the brass. The US army was looking at plastic ammunition for this reason
Another thing to take into account is the barrel length, with 308 you get an increase of 70 yards per second of travel for every inch of the barrel. This can be seen in a 20 inch barrel ar-15, vs a 16 inch barrel version of the same gun and same ammo.
I suppose it could be argued that most of the apparent weight savings are on the casing being a thinner, lighter alloy. I also wonder if perhaps some mixture of compressed gasses are used as a propellant by the UNSC.
I like how you fully admit there are some measurements you have to ignore because they don't necessarily make sense and are probably oversight. I also assumed that improved propellant and materials used improved performance, and they just never really bothered to update the designation. Experimental Propellant was mentioned with the BR's 'Kurz' round, explaining why it's a better precision round despite being shorter than the 7.62.
Advances in metallurgy, powders, and projectiles. Same as we transitioned from back powder to smokeless powder and the .38 spcl turned into the .357 magnum as people loaded higher and higher pressures. And when we got jacketed hollowpoints instead of FMJ or round nose lead. Look at the 6.8x51 i.e. the .277 Fury from Sig. It's 80k psi instead of 60k psi due to advances in casings. UNSC guns are likely rated for MUCH higher pressures with far superior bullets, powders, casings, primers, etc. Than we have today. Pretty simple if you understand arms and weapons development.
Finally somebody addresses the standard issue sidearm being essentially a desert eagle. Like against the covenant used by Spartans makes sense, but the gun was used prior to the covenant invasion, so that makes no sense to use as a standard issue sidearm.
If I were to guess the issue, it would be that back when they first created the lore for the weapon, that they counted the slug weight as the round's total weight, instead of the total cartridge. So as you suggested, a continuity error, that would explain the weird weight better I think than using mini MAC weaponry boosters as it's been in use since 2395 according to the lore, and mini rail guns etc. like the M99 Stanchion Gauss rifle are still only starting to be used for special forces/sniper use only leading me to believe that it's just a continuity error.
A magnetic accelerator booster in small arms would require a significant mass of ferrous material in the projectile. That would almost certainly reduce projectile density compared to lead, copper, and tungsten. High projectile density is important for accuracy and long range energy retention, and ultimately allows for more energy to be delivered in a smaller package. Granted, steel is not exactly uncommon in rifle projectiles, especially as an economic substitute for the aforementioned materials. And 2550's technology shows that they routinely manipulate gravity and could likely use a gravitic manufacturing process to crush more ferrous material into a bullet core than we know how to do today.
one explanation I can think of as to why what you propose would be true is if you look at the trade-offs of the next generation squad weapon program that was recently awarded to sig in the US. a lot of the criticisms of the larger higher velocity round is that you won't be able to carry as much ammunition as you would be able to previously with a 556 and I've heard from veterans that part of what makes you able to win a firefight in a war zone is being able to carry more ammo so perhaps the rounds are the same size because like you suggested they found ways to accelerate the projectile and increase its kinetic potential through perhaps coil boosting technology in the barrel and better chemical compositions in the exothermic material in the casing itself. this would allow soldiers to carry far more ammunition without increasing the amount of weight that they are carrying thus allowing them a better chance of winning firefights
One thing you haven't considered is they are able to exert more berral pressure on the round pushing it out with greater velocity similar to how the US army was able to upgrade its main gun with the XM5 replacing the M4 with a new 6.8 round and achieving higher velocity and force on target with a smaller round.
To speak more on the possibility of magnetically accelerated(assisted) rounds, if you remember halo nightfall they could only fire their weapons when switched on, and I don't believe I've ever seen a UNSC weapon fire while turned off in any situation. Just gives this idea more feasibility, but still it most likely comes down to advanced propellants.
@Installation00, I’d like to add something on the Assault rifle’s penetration capabilities. On the halo wiki page for Depleted uranium, it states that “armor piercing rounds” in general use DU for their penetrators. On the page for “armor piercing rounds”, it explicitly lists the 7.62 nato rounds the assault rifle uses. I’d say with about 95% certainty that the assault rifle’s AP rounds are tungsten jacketed with a Depleted uranium core. Just an interesting bit of information that I thought would add to arguing UNSC weapon superiority.
Hey man! Love your stuff!!! I've been a long time viewer and will continue to be. But one small nit pick! So in your graphics looking at the rounds, like with the 7.62x51mm NATO. The graphic implies that the whole round is 51mm long, and that the case is 7.62mm around. But actually those measurements refer only to the case length (from the bottom of the case to the top of the neck, not including the projectile) and the 7.62mm refers to the projectile diameter, rather than the case diameter. EXCELLENT video! Love your content. Keep it up.
It's also possible that the cartridge is made of something other than metal, like a lightweight space polymer. Meaning that the bullet could super dense and make up most of the weight of the round.
they could also use a different matterial or smarter projectile which means when it is flying through the air it is able to be faster as it is not so affected by drag or when it hits the bullet could have some kind of secondary mechanism to deal more damage
One of these days when you come to the US you've got to go to Drive Tanks in Texas. Mainly for the D20 but they have an entire arsenel down there. Being someone who likes to dabble around guns, without altering the calibers to compensate (because we all know that .30-06 pwns when using black tip) for the difference we're looking at two different things. Either 1) the AP part of the round is not some derivative of the IRL black tip where a steel core penetrator as seen on the M855/SS109 but something akin to SLAP as seen on the .50BMG (and yes there is a 7.62 SLAP but it's less common due to... issues like exiting the barrel before the muzzle) where that has a tungsten penetrator and is used to get inside lightly armored APCs. 2) We're dealing with future Magnum powder or these rounds being packed really hot. The issue with this is the primers popping out which the US Army already has a (hopeful) solution for in the recent winning bid for the XM5/XMG5 program chambered in Sig .277 Fury (6.8 SPC) where the bottom of the case has a steel bottom to help retain chamber pressures in excess of 65,000 PSI if the patents on the barrels are anything to go by. Honestly, I'd be more willing to lean towards the hotter packed rounds with potentially magnum powder (at least by today's standards) in some kind of brass alloy case to allow for higher chamber pressures with a round that has a more lightweight penetrator to give it is AP component.
Higher velocity rounds most does not always equate to higher damage to target. When looking at the expansion of rounds on soft targets, there is a threshold of velocity where the round is moving so fast there is no time for it to expand on contact with the target therefore doing less damage.
Just quickly; the length of the case/cartridge is 51mm on the 7.62 x 51mm, verses the overall length of the round being 71mm.
I had to make a choice in the editing on if I should have marked the lines to indicate the case/cartridge length lines or the overall length
If I marked the cartridge length, I'd get people saying that I put the lines in the wrong place.
If I marked, as I have in this video, the overall length, I'd get other people saying the length is wrong.
I could have used both but I didn't want to unnecessarily muddy the water for clear understanding of the bullets.
So since the literal measurements are in the name (7.62 x 51mm), I decided to go with that.
7.62 is the caliber not the casing. 12:00 is wrong.
A few of us, such as myself are firearm enthusiasts, so we would know what you are talking about. There's quite a few measurement diagrams for different calibers that show the overall length, case length, etc. If people are curious they could look at those.
^^ Good Vid as always (except for the small mistake with the overall Length of the Ammunition).
For why it has more Power as the 7.62x51mm nowadays i would say three Factors are important:
1. The Propellant (we saw what the Change from the old Gunpowder to smokeless powder as Propellant had in an impact on the projectile velocity)
2. Better Barrel materials that can withstand the higher pressure with an more powerful Propellant
3. A better system to reduce weapon recoil (If anyone has ever shot with an 7.62 Assault Rifle you know what i mean)
PS: As I was in the German Airforce i did shot with the H&K G3 and the MG3 which is using 7.62x51mm and the Recoil is noticeable higher that an 5.56x45 NATO. Now think of this with even more powerful Propellant...my poor Shoulder ;) ...especially if you fire burst or full auto
Ok so I'm going to assume that somewhere in your lore resurch you found a description of the cartridge what it looked like and what's it's made of because in the whole video you never mentioned anything about the cartridge other than weight a mention about thickness and its length.
So let me elaborate I would like to point out a possibility that you may or may not have considered that is the cartridge itself has probably gone through changes as well not just the powder... etc
Because I have no doubt the unsc did initiate such things for example you point out a weight difference between the current day cartridge and the halo version and say its the same well I submit that all the variances you make between the current day and halo ammunition can be accounted for through inivstiona with the cartridge.
Eg: if the halo cartridge is not brass but a type of polymer that is lighter than brass and because it's not brass the normal loss of energy due to heat transfer in to the brass can be avoided putting more energy back in to accelerating the round...etc
And if you say the polymer would melt or what have you the us is developing exactly what I am describing for there armed forces as we speak... so in conclusion I would say the reason halo ammunition could be more powerful is a combination of powder innovation and cartridge innovation to get the results depicted... anyway that's my opinion 🤪 still an interesting video lots of food for thought
You should see Garand Thumbs video on the MA5 series.
When the standard issue weapon system of spacefaring humanity is a 32-60 round magazine of .308 NATO ammo firing at between 700-900 RPM out of a bullpup design with neural-laced targeting systems and the users make generous use of the full-auto mode, you know they will give any adversary a run for their money.
@digifalc0087 yeah, the bullet spread and recoil was obviously a game balance thing and the lore came after the fact. But it would be cool to see a Canon scene of it being represented. I think Tanaka firing dead-on headshots one-handed during the opening of Halo 5 is all we got right now lol
@digifalc0087 most weapons in game dont have recoil besides the smg, saw, and sniper rifle etc so theres that at least
You know the UNSC means business when their Assault Rifle would be considered a Battle Rifle by today's standards
Come on… they totally should use Gauss rifles that launches tungsten needles at dozens of kilometres per second.
@@kerbodynamicx472 even if it was a DMR it'd be lore friendly and badass
I always assumed the increased performance came from a more powerful propellant charging and stronger materials used in the rounds construction.
Same
Yeah I would assume metallurgy 500 years in the future can make some pretty advanced materials, make the chamber and casing out of something that can handle high explosives with an internal recoil dampener
I always imagined they had plastic explosive with a piezoelectric primer instead of a traditional primer/powder combination and had strong barrels to complement that power
The CE magnum was said to fire oversized explosive rounds.
@@samtheweebo SAPHE 12.7 rounds
Semi Armor Piercing High Explosive.
AND THESE WERE MADE FOR FIGHTING HUMANS
I agree, the UNSC weapons in Halo are very powerful and ridiculous. I always thought that the answer was because of technological advancements by the 26th century. It does makes sense that 500 years of technological advances in weaponry shows more power then what we have now. I agree, in reality you can't make anything like Halo human weapons. At least, not yet. The future is always in motion. But it's always good to be prepared.
Honestly I think it's as simple as hot metal will always cause more physical damage than concentrated beams of light. 🤷♂️
@@madkabal Agreed.
@@madkabal plasma is definitely not a beam of light. and hard light is a special property of turning well light into a physical mass even though light does have mass its so minuscule we say it doesnt. Actually currently solid photon particles hvae been created just not to the same degree.
These weapons are particle dilators that use an unexplained method to convert light mass into hard light for use as a projectile. This would presumably provide both the kinetic energy as with solid projectiles
Halo weapons are implausible for the fact they weren't designed by people having extensive experience with firearms.
The AR's have nowhere for the bolt to reciprocate and pick up another projectile unless it uses an extremely elaborate bolt which is not out of the question.
The pistols are mostly doable even though they are essentially magnum versions of the .50AE desert eagle round.
The BR and DMR have the same issue of the AR but plausible otherwise.
The Sniper is mostly based on a real firearm NTW-20.
All of Infinite's new firearms are plausible.
The SMG is more questionable.
thats far better than mass effect or star wars with ridiculous technology while behind halos era ahem star trek
One possible explanation that exists, and one I personally like using in my own material, is that the UNSC doesn't use any kind of gunpowder-variant at all. Instead, they could use a chemical-based propellent that is far more volatile then it's 20th and 21st century counterparts. An example of this would be the real-life C-4. Halo lore mentions both 'C-7 foaming explosive' and 'C-12 shaped charges', so it would not be surprising if the UNSC developed a high-powered chemical propellant for their bullets that outperformed the IRL stuff.
Another, more ludicrous idea, is something like C2N14, or what is the demon brew more commonly known as "Azidoazide azide". Directly using something like that would be insane to the point of criminal stupidity, but a somewhat less dangerous compound of similar nature could 'hypothetically' be used for projectile weapons of the 26th century.
An unexpected side-benefit of this possibility is that using a more high-powered propellant could also explain why UNSC guns seem a bit bulkier and more robust then their IRL counterparts. Having a more powerful bang inside the gun when you pull the trigger means needing to beef up the gun itself to handle it, logically! The apparent love-affair the UNSC has with titanium would also seem to support this concept. After all, which kind of gun is going to stand up better to being used as a melee weapon by an enhanced and augmented super-soldier: one made from steel, or one from titanium? =^x^=
Chemical composition of the propellant doesn’t make the round more powerful though…if the propellant is more powerful and causes the round to travel at a higher velocity then the round will be more powerful but if the round travels at the same velocity as another round with equal mass then regardless of whatever propellant was used it will have the same kinetic energy…and the assault rifles muzzle velocity is roughly the same as a real life 7.62 round so if we ignore the weird mass discrepancy like he said then they should be the same
My head cannon has always been that the bulky look of the ma5 is because the gun it's self is armored. so that a single plasma burst or similar doesn't disable the soldiers weapon. The original deign looks as though It literally has armor paneling on it, but I like the idea that it's also the withstand higher chamber pressures.
@@ExtremeSportsFails True, which is why I tend to ignore things like muzzle velocity for video game stats. Most of the time, they're just talking out of their rear-ends. If the propellant is a more powerful variant then IRL, and the rounds hit harder, then there's no way they would have the same muzzle velocity as IRL rounds. Ergo, they 'must' have a higher MV then IRL bullets and the listed stats are false. Simple logic. =^x^=
@@tsamoka6496 agreed so personally I think analysis like this is kinda silly bc it ends up being speculation and imagination anyway as it should be bc it’s sci fi
@@ExtremeSportsFails The flip-side of that is that sometimes things in scifi can become real, or inspire advances in unexpected places. In the same vein of this video, I wonder if bullets using a chemical/liquid propellant could be made IRl, and how it would work. Maybe even actually using something like C-4 or some other plastic explosive... =^x^=
Considering at present time, SIG Sauer just won the US military next gen rifle, chambered in 6.8x51mm, it wouldn't shock me in the slightest that the UNSC rounds would be more powerful. For context, the .277 SIG Fury (6.8x51mm) with the Hybrid stainless steel/brass case has a standard pressure for military use (only) of 80,000 PSI. Standard 7.62x51mm is around 60,000 PSI. That huge increase will allow the 6.8mm bullet to leave a 16" barrel at 2950 feet per second. There is talks that the hybrid case can be max loaded safely to 105,000 PSI. Granted you would be eroding the barrel much faster.
So it is quite possible the future rounds are well more powerful than modern day with better design in case materials.
General Dynamics bullpup design has a twenty inch barrel and tests have shown a 20% increase compare to 7.62x51mm NATO rounds.
If the point that degrades is controlled, then it is simple to replace that one mechanism as a result of its use.
@@WolfeSaber9933 that's because the bullet casing only transfer half as much heat compared to brass ammo (means more energy can be used by propellant to burn more efficiently), so with 10% less powder in same ammo pressure they can achieve same performance to their brass ammo equivalent.
It's too bad you can't invest in Sig Sauer. Already own Sturm and Ruger
First off sig Sauer won the bid to replace the SAW (squad automatic weapon) not the standard rifle.(will they ever replace the M16 platform that remains to be seen) second whether we will actually see SIG Sauer's new squad weapon ever in us troops hands is an entirely different deal do you know how many "replacements for the m16/m4" the us military has fielded and liked over the years yet never see combat. I wouldn't get your hopes up on it. They just finally managed to start actually replacing the M9 and that's still going to take years to fully implement.
As an addition to this, there is bullet material. The way one defeats armor is with speed, not size. So, in theory, it could be that the bullets themselves are made out of a much harder, but much lighter, material allowing for increased velocities with the same powders and allowing much better penetrative power
That’s very possible especially since the unsc made a tank that was only 33 tons when compared to it’s predecessor which was the m808 scorpion which was 66 tons. They are roughly the same size but the m820 uses a bigger gun and still has the same survivability
cough cough Titanium 50 cough cough
true, they use a "gel based propellent" and even now the only thing stopping us from using titanium bullets jacketed with copper to save the rifling is cost. If we found a planet(s) with MASSIVE amounts of titanium its very likely that we would start doing this.
hardness doesn't equal penetrative power, at extreme velocities you generally need density. metals behave more like liquids under those conditions.
@@jonathanpfeffer3716 actually you don't need density, speed matters way more. We are talking about energy via velocity not mass.
its the same reason a .220 swift fmj outperforms a round like 30-06 AP when shot at armored steel despite being a 55 grain bullet.
The way to gain speed and penetration is with lighter harder materials
The Real Scientist angst about fictional stuff having well-hidden stupidity is hilarious!
The “please remain calm” was the best for me
so what of it
fictional its just idea
a idea having released
having ideas having fictional is our future
seems idiot idea at the moment
but in future its great idea
most of people just laughed because all they can do is laugh
One of the authors I enjoy did his best to make his ships sound. He realized he fucked up when a game was being developed based on his novels, and was politely told that his ships have the density of.. smoke, lol.
In later editions of those novels the size of the ships were adjusted, though artifacts of the original mass and volume remained. Fourth edition, paper back edition of _On Basilisk Station_ page 397 listed the mass and dimensions of an anti-ship missile. The missile was 70 tons and had a length of 10 meters. The ship was HMS Fearless, a Courageous-class Light Cruiser, she had the length of 389 meters, with a mass of 88,250 tons. The mass of all missiles in her magazines (assuming she carried 8 missiles per tube for her 18 tubes) would add over 10,000 more tons. That's assuming the 88,250 tons wasn't already counting the 10,000+ tons from the missiles.
Yeah, the math still doesn't work, lol. Missile sizes needed to be reduced beyond a mere 70 tons per... but, it's what it is, live and learn, right?
Why did you say Angst? Why are you scared?
Oh my god, dude. No. This guy has to ignore real science to make some of his asinine suppositions.
He waffled about projectile weights and hardening for minutes when 30 seconds on Google could have led him to a ballistic calculator and confirmed with nothing but the velocity and the energy that the projectile weight is 147 grains. That's literally 1969 M80 Ball. ((If that means nothing to you, it's the most widely used, widely studied, and widely available .308 derived cartridge on the planet. And also comically outdated in 2022.)
Then he spent all this time screeching about magical propellants when not only is M80 perfectly capable of getting to 2970FPS with nothing but a 26" barrel, but M80 isn't even particularly hot as 7.62x51 ammunition goes.
Then he went on to talk about guns firing in a vacuum when the re is no ambient air anywhere near the propellant when the weapon fires, to where you can fire guns underwater perfectly fine. GUNS DO NOT NEED AIR TO FIRE. The Soviets put aircraft cannons on their space stations and they worked fine in a vacuum.
This might be a stupid question, but is it possible the UNSC is using a variation of ETC (Electrothermal Chemical) Ignition? I understand research is being done in this field for tank and CIWS rounds, however there is no mention of this technology being unable to be sized down to small arms application.
They probably use better propellant mixture with much higher pressure that increase their bullet velocity up to 42% (doubling their kinetic energy) just like SIG FURY Hybrid Ammunition Technology implemented on XM5/M5 Rifle & XM250/M250 Automatic Rifle.
I agree with this. We are talking about way in the future. ETC would be a relatively simple add on to firearms.
@@makbar59 unless you make it as self-powered plasma primer or at very least with very dense hot swappable power source I don't see ir will get widespread use in small arms technology
SIG FURY HYBRID ammunition is much more practical in use (for now) without risking your rifle to completely brick itself because of electronic jammers or EMP.
@@zidniafifamani2378 We are really rapidly coming to the point where solid state batteries could make prototypes a reality. In the Halo setting a button battery as a backup to the a gun's internal battery would easily be possible and reliable. It's not as complicated and weak to an EMP.
Basically the operation would remain the same except the firing pin would just be completing a circuit.
@@zidniafifamani2378
My dude... The United States military developed a prototype 120mm ETC gun variant of the M256, the XM291, almost 22 years ago now and was capable of nearly 40% increase in muzzle energy. And it has a higher muzzle velocity than proposed 140mm guns.
...If you think ETC technology isn't viable 500 years from now... I don't know what to tell you. First of all, the firearms in Halo have electronics embedded in them coming out the wazoo with things like ammunition counters, Smart-Links, etc. Secondly, you don't need a ridiculous amount of electrical power to generate these plasma ignitions. Thirdly, *_explosively generated plasmas are a thing._* So, yes, you could generate these even without electronics if you wanted to. Fourthly, ETC guns can easily be backwards compatible with conventional ammunition.
Literally all this take to get off the ground and be viable is new primer technology utilizing explosively generated plasma ignition and suddenly the ammunition you have is almost 40% more capable overnight without changing anything else. Might have issues with chamber pressures and whatnot, but that's fixable and worth dealing with for the added muzzle energy. If we can't develop that 500 years from now when we've *_figured out faster-than-light travel and anti-gravity,_* then humanity *_deserves_* extinction.
If you gotta kill a giant bear-ape covered in armor, you need a powerful gun.
Recommended to aim at its face.
All the solutions you've offered would have a more significant change to muzzle velocity, which, while the Halo 7.62 is faster (and seems to have a longer propellant chamber), it's not nearly enough of a difference to explain the significant difference in impact energy. I would sooner look at the round composition itself. If the round is harder and has less deformation, that could cause more energy to be delivered through impact and less wounding through fragmentation and tumbling. We know that's it's a full metal jacket round, but it doesn't specify what that jacket, or perhaps more importantly, the core underneath, is made of. The jacket is visible in the art and appears to be in the same copper/bronze/zinc family of alloys that such rounds are made of nowadays. But the core could be anything we want, and the UNSC has a long-standing love affair with a very particular metal that would be the perfect choice for this: Titanium A. This is used in their body armor, in their vehicles, in their ships. It's difficult to go more than five feet in any UNSC armory without walking past at least a dozen things made of titanium A. This is an incredibly hard metal that deforms only under immense amounts of stress. If you want to make a round that, all other factors being roughly equal, delivers as much pure energy as possible, titanium A would be a very good choice
What I find even more interesting is how this informs their tactics. The singular focus on energy makes me think body armor has reached a point that even conventional methods for defeating it like velocity and destructible jackets are insufficient to fully penetrate the plate. So their solution is to bore as deeply as possible with the jacket, then deliver so much energy from the core round that it deforms and buckles under multiple hits, opting instead to destroy the plate entirely rather than penetrate a small part of it. This would also deliver an incredible amount of shock to the wearer, knocking them off their feet and potentially even scrambling their organs or causing internal bleeding from the pressure. If we can assume Insurrectionists then got their hands on this same type of ammo by raiding supply dumps, then we see the following response to having this used against them in the MJOLNIR project: Multiple layers of trauma pads, gels, and other impact-resistant materials to reduce shock to the wearer, allowing them to respond more quickly to being hit
It could also be a tungsten core as the UNSC is fond of using tungsten for projectiles.
Titanium A may be more likely due to the oddly light weight of the rounds though.
And the introduction of kinetic rounds that specifically effect vehicles and shields more effectively, meaning there might be other elements to the core or even jackets themselves
The explosive and Armor piercing rounds can be combined or held separately, not knew to us, but very different in halo where it’s more like a timed fuse explosive rather than bang then boom, it’s acts more like a bang wait then boom, also rail guns have proximity fuses
But the use of brute force rather than penetration makes for a more “cleaner” kill
Less fragmentation and more scrambled intervals mean less blood from each wound behind armor, though against no armor the bullets shred flesh and bone.
Then there is the underwhelming tank ammunition caliber and this all begins to make more sense, those rounds should not do as much damage as seen in books and games, but yet they hit with the force of a derailed train with explosives
Advanced tech means advancements in existing tech as well, though practicality is up to ones own mindset
I actually really like the ideas that have come up here, being that the bullet composition was the main thing changed and that the body armor advancements were to such a high degree that the goal was internal damage rather than puncturing the armor. I think that theory alone would explain a lot of certain game mechanics like how projectiles affect targets. The other theory I really liked was the one mentioned in the video above shrunken down rail gun systems implemented into the small arms used. Now, while I love just about all of the possible explanations for this question, I think more than likely that in universe it would be a combination of our proposed answers rather than just one.
@@predatormark2847 Yeah, generally with real world specialty rounds like AP you'll see some kind of colored tip, which is why I didn't consider it based on the art. Do you know how their statistics are measured? It seems like that point energy is kind of an oversimplification given the other effects you're including
@@icarusgaming6269 well railguns are just super fast bullets/slugs
Whose to say they call gunpowder due to trend rather than what we know it as, for all we know it could be an explosive gel that was mischarcterized by the common soldier
But I’m getting ahead of my self, you bring up a valid point, but more often it’s the guns that show the indicator of what kind of rounds your dealing with, not the ammunition it self for some reason
Advances in metallurgy would mean a stronger barrel that can stand higher PSI allowing the use of compounds that would blow a modem gun to pieces. So you don’t need more propellant giving a lighter round with more punch, you can see this in the modern world with things like how fast bomb fragments can travel.
I would have assumed this. Better Metals and build, can support higher pressures. Putting more force into the round that itself is made of better metals making it a stronger overall package.
You don't even need that. You can get this exact performance out of M80 ball developed in 1969 with just a little bit longer barrel.
Don't forget lightweight.
I always imagine UNSC infantry engaging from further away distance wise than the Covenant. I feel like plasma rifles/pistols couldn’t keep up with the range irl of UNSC weaponry.
The covenant species [for the most part ] have greater natural mobility and even better senses than humans. Plus vehicular transport mobility maybe in favour of the Covenant.
My pervious points may explain why covenant can usually get into their preferred combat range. Or more reasonably. I think the Halo franchise is yet another example of sci-if being obsessed with short to close range gun fights and melee combat, lol.
@@Reyma777 you have a point there. I think irl the goal would be for the covenant to get as close as possible then engage with their supper or shielding/physical attributes while the UNSC would have to engage at least if foot from a distance as infantry.
@@powertothepapol2803 good take. I could see Jackals and elites closing distance in seconds
Thing is - the plasma weapons the Covenant use home into targets so they have a slightly better effective range than you might think. This happens in game slightly and is likely more obvious in the lore because they dont have to deal with game balance. So even at long ranges aslong as they got a enemy infront of them the round will eventually drift into them - provided they dont move of course. But yeah they seem to benefit more from closer range combat than ballistics, I imagine that came along from shields making plasma weapons a go too besides the compact nature and destructive capability. Abit like Star Wars were they made concessions in terms of effective range for weapon damage, compatibility, and economic viability. Not to mention the agility of their species - its no wonder that all true long range Covenant weapons use some sort of physical round - the Needler Rifle uses blamite, Beam Rifle shoots a high energy stream of particles, Carbine shoots radioactive slugs, etc etc - the Focus Rifle is the rare exception but uses a continuous high focus beam of plasma that was phased out due to the many obvious draw backs
Also impaling humans with a sword is fun, cant forge tthat
@@Reyma777 False. The covenant species don’t have any significant physical advantages over humans, besides Brutes, Elites, Drones & Skirmishers. That’s a myth perpetuated by people who played into the “human weak” trope present in science fiction.
Humans are more than capable of dealing with grunts and jackals. The only problem is the covenants vehicular mobility, that’s the real issue.
Higher chamber pressures. Look into the new "6.8X51" being adopted by the army. The USArmy loading makes near 80K PSI High pressure 5.56 makes around 65-66K PSI.
Hearing the theory of potential accelerators in UNSC weapons makes me think about how cool the guns of Mass Effect are. Would love a breakdown of those.
3:20 I have the feeling that who ever wrote this just looked at the weight of the projectile and not the overall weight of the bullet. Because the projectile of an 7.62x51 NATO can weight between 9,4 to 11,66 grams (Or 145 to 180 grain).
As for the more KE of the round: The new rifle for the US Army, the XM5, uses new ammunition with extreme high gas pressures (~80.000 Psi). With the new materials and metallurgy of the UNSC in the years of 2500 I would think that they did the same.
But, we all know how the creators of Halo quite often have trouble keeping anything constant in their world creation.
I think it's 7.62x54 NATO.
UNSC also seems to have a much more prevalent use of tungsten cores in their rounds, so even their standard fmj is equivalent to a modern black tip.
@@jetdestroyer9626 What you are maybe thinking of is the 7.62x54R, the russian rimmed cartridge.
The M7 uses a 1970s/80s caseless ammunition that never got past the experimental phase.
As someone who is a fan of both Star Wars Legends (F*ck Disney) and Warhammer 40K, you guys are one of the more consistent sci-fi universe out there.
Most of the inconsistencies (that I've encountered) tend to be with the abilities of the Spartans and stronger Covenant races. I've read accounts where Spartans basically walk through Covenant soldiers: out maneuvering Elites, overpowering Brutes, and calculating the fire patterns of dozens of Grunts to dodge their attacks
And then in First Strike, Chief has to be incredibly cautious against a squad of Grunts because his shields were disabled, and is nearly strangled to death by a Brute.
Halo's got it's inconsistencies, but there are far worse.
I'll say this once but the Saw is still the coolest UNSC weapon to exist
I think we need more LMG like weapons
Saw >>>>>> Commando
It's the Answer
Fax
@@RVAlien I’d rock both, especially if we could suppress the Commando
there's also a key feature of unsc weapons: they are bullpups that have extra long barrels, longer even then modern bullpups.
the bullets have time to accelerate for longer and faster to reach a higher muzzle velocity, hence, greater kinetic energy delivery.
All other things being equal, increasing barrel length can increase velocity to a point. Pressure will peak at a certain point in the barrel and then drop off. From that peak, extra barrel length is just friction. A round whose powder burn is not optimized for a longer barrel will not benefit.
The rounds can be the same dimension as today. I think the difference has to be in the propellant tech used, since that's what impacts the velocity of the steel.
You mean lead
@@The_Tactical_Wook sorry to be the uhm akshually comment goblin but modern military rounds usually don't have lead in them they have a hardened steel penetrator usually made of tool steel and a copper jacket for good rifling engagement, off the shelf walmart rounds for sure have lead since it's about a third the cost
I can see the booster rail on the sniper possibly as the speed the round could be accelerated to have that trade smoke trail might be the by-product of high friction in the atmosphere upon leaving the barrel considering the length of the barrel, but on smaller ARs and BRs I can't see it either. Though possibly on the Marksmen rifle and maybe the BR only because both have a light smoke trail when you pull the trigger, but they don't last as long so the speed isn't as high. Again, that's probably not really feasible like you said as even the power requirements to power up such a system would drain the batteries faster unless the magazine came with a built-in battery and had a port for it to connect to when you put in a fresh magazine. But judging by the size of the magazines they are standard issue snap in and quick release.
If the battery idea is accurate, they could have a plug similar to our smartphones. The battery could be very small as well, batteries today can be very tiny. Since we’re also talking over 500 years in the future, it’s possible that things like batteries and connecters could be vastly different and simple today. I mean there’s charging pads for smartphones today, so that concept of technology could be what is used.
Compared to today*
I think more realistically the smoke trail is from either an incindiary or tracer loading, or a byproduct of the new powder being used. I have old incindiary 303 rounds from WW2 that use white phosphorus and they leave a smoke trail that looks a lot like the ones that the S7 has in the game
As I recall, the Halopedia entry on the AR says "a round with the same dimensions as 7.62 NATO". So not exactly the same.
Haven't watched through to see if you mentioned that.
And I love how the Magnum fires a round closer to .500 S&W than the .50 AE of the Desert Eagle.
It's pretty cool to know the science behind some of this gear
Most of it is all imagination, (albeit based in reality) but it is through using our imagination and art that we create new. I am excited for the future if we can make it.
There is literally no science. In fact the video has to ignore some actual science to make some of its suppositions.
Guns do not need air to fire. You can shoot underwater. No magical oxidizers needed.
If you punch the data into a ballistic calculator you can see that the projectile weight is 147gr, which is the projectile weight of M80 ball.
Hardening has nothing to do with weight. It's literally the process of making something hard. In this case, heat treating a mild steel core for a bullet to make it penetrate armor better.
1969 era M80 Ball will give you 2970FPS if you fire it out of a 26" barrel.
Please stop encouraging this.
Just wanted to say: it's great to see you back here, and I'm glad you got the chance to reset a little bit. Love your content, and keep on making whatever videos you want ✊✊✊
I was feeling the same way about him. More food for the fun brain and the logical brain.
When you think about it, it makes some sense since blue team were able to fire their guns whilst in space, where due to the advancements in primer technology and powder technology whilst adding both an airtight seal as well as rail projectors would enable the use of firearms in the vacuum of space, not only that but given their momentum, they could have been issued a low pressure round to ensure the least amount of recoil
The guns we have right now can already be used in space. The Soviets once launched a space station with an honest to god 40mm rotary cannon bolted on.
@@dsdy1205 cheap but effective 😂
It's possible that the weapons of the UNSC are ElectroThermal Chemical (ETC) weapons, which have quicker (and more complete) propellant burn. (Edit: due to the ignition method, which fires plasma into the propellant, rather than using a chemical-based explosive primer)
This doesn't preclude your theories, though; it's entirely possible that they use a futuretech propellant mix and/or have booster rails.
They could also be ETC (Electric Thermal Chemical) weapons. They are almost identical to modern weapons, but instead of using a chemical reaction to ignite the gunpowder, they use plasma which is much more powerful and uniform. Tests done on tank cannons are much more consistent than the normal rounds, and ETC guns allow a bullet to be fired at rail gun speeds with only a fraction of the electricity needed. Because the plasma is so powerful, much more dense gunpowder can be used that a normal primer would fail to ignite.
I remember seeing a little bit about new types of weapons that tanks could potentially use in the near future, weapons like ETC cannons or CLG guns seems to be the most likely choices since they pretty much function like a traditional firearm but offering much more energy for the round to use either by changing the propellant to a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen like in the CLGs case or using a plasma ignitor to more evenly and efficiently ignite a more traditional propellant in the ETCs case in both cases though the ammunition and the weapon itself stays more or less the same, personally I'm more in favor of the ETC technology being used in UNSC firearms seeing how the increase in performance of the 7.62x51 Nato is more in line with the kind or improved performance ETC cannons are supposed to provide tanks, at least with the figures I've seen
Setting aside the scuffed loaded weapon weight, modern .308 handloads can get 3000 fps from a 24 inch barrel with a 150 grain bullet (military weight), still within safe pressures. Halo's Assault rifle has a 24 inch barrel, so unless the bullet is heavier than 150 grains, it's velocity in game is indeed possible with modern propellants.
They gotta rip through alien shields, armor, and hides.
They are also a result of hundreds of years of arms races.
I would agree, but there weren't hundreds of years of arms raves. Prior to the Insurrection (which was immediately before the human-covenant war), there was well over a hundred years of peace. However, the Insurrection would definitely result in an arms race, especially as that seems to be when the MAC was developed.
@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem I didn’t say the arms races were consecutive.
Project Orion began well before the Insurrection.
@@spartangoku7610 I know, but wasn't Project Orion just about making better soldiers? The Mijolnir armor technically wasn't part of Orion.
@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem still supersoldiers.
@@spartangoku7610 Yes, but soldiers are not guns.
I like the mention of rail boosters. That was a bit of lore in the game series, section 8 and section 8 prejudice. In that series the guns used standard cased rounds with rail gun tech to boost bullet velocity.
Nice seeing a good take on this. I had debated with people online who think the ammunition is the same or outdated not knowing the materials, chemical & possible other advances in ignition systems maybe. That's why I believe the UNSC counterparts are more advanced, this could explain in the series (which I hate) why the rebels are using AKs with ammo with half or less the potential energy per bullet ratio to take on a shielded elite.
The joys of somebody going on and on about how the UNSC guns are terrible because of the round size, or the Scorpion tank is awful because of the 90mm shell size.
Like, we just know the size. They don't tell us the propellants of them, the materials, etc. It could be a 90mm shell with a much more powerful launch system, hitting harder and thus making it work.
If I recall correctly when watching Halo: Nightfall when Locke is on the planet with the worms that hunt technology it’s heavily implied if not stated the AR can not fire without being powered on. I don’t know enough about ballistics or weapons to hypothesize anything, but it stood out to me.
Most weapons used by the UNSC don't have sights that are usable without the use of heads up display. Meaning something has to be turned on in the rifle and on the user's hud in order to aim.
The rifle also has a electronic ammo counter for any magazines on your body, a electronic ammo display for ammo loaded, and random indicator lights on the gun.
Trying to use the weapon would likely draw in more attention from anti-electric aliens.
Btw your scientific explanation of blackpowder was spot on. But modern powders use nitrocellulose in graphite and acetone
Using a ballistic calculator, I have determined that the numbers given for velocity match the muzzle energy if you account for a 147 grain bullet. The magic here is nothing more than simply turning up the velocity with a hotter propellent charge than is currently the NATO standard. And to address the disparity with cartridge weight: Polymer casings. Polymer cased ammo is significantly lighter than brass cased ammo (and may have increased internal dimensions to boot) . But these 2 factors would drive into why the rifles in Halo are beefed up. A large function of brass casings in a gun is also heat dissipation. With polymer, that heat conducts to the chamber and barrel much more quickly, so The MA5 series of rifles are either equipped with a cooling system or are just overbuilt to soak up the heat from automatic fire.
8 gauge shotguns and their shells aren't illegal to own or shoot, just to hunt waterfowl with, atleast in the US.
Yeah, I’ve got an industrial 8-gauge shell on my shelf at home.
Nor are they illegal in the UK, provided you have a Shotgun Certificate. The only stipulation is that the bore of the shotgun is no larger than 2 inches and (when hunting deer exclusively) the gauge may be no smaller than 12 bore shooting AAA or larger shot (British scale, slightly larger than size T buckshot on the US scale), except in Scotland where the minimum is SSG shot (slightly smaller than the US #2 Buck). In England and Wales, killing badgers allows a gauge as small as 20 bore.
@@Kingpin_Gaming_UK I’m surprised by the bore minimum. I’ve taken several deer with a 20 gauge, and I’ve heard of people using .410(not sure if that’s used at all in Europe?)
@Randomly Entertaining Also, confirmation from 00 in Discord, he was referring to the usage of 8 Gauge in combat, not general usage or ownership.
Sorry, I meant for Combat Purposes. The last time I checked (although I admit that may be based on outdated information), the 8 Gauge was not to be used in combat. My apologies if this is incorrect.
My head canon has always been the chemical propellant change, and the em booster, em booster is best for handheld because you can much more easily add some more energy to the bullet than get the bullet to the same speed with the same size gun.
The SIG-Sauer MCX Spear (or M5 in US military phrasing) could be an example here. It fires a 6.8x51mm round. The unique part is that there is a "training" round that is pretty standard. However, it also fires a "hybrid" round that has a stainless steel base and brass body. This allows the round to fire at significantly higher pressures that an all-brass casing can't handle (80,000 PSI, if I remember correctly). This means that, while both bullets have the same size, they presumably have substantially different velocities.
While I am not sure where that additional velocity comes from (I would assume chemical composition of the powder), it demonstrates that a real-world round can see improvements in velocity without changing the size.
As someone who makes his own ammo i must admit you have a good deal of knowledge. I found it rather refreshing.
Clearly you are bad at making ammo then... A 50m/s difference in speed is nothing, go and look up velocities on cartridges from a given calibre and you will see that their are much wider variations in speed than that.
@@harrybuttery2447 bad no, expert no. I dont strive to make top of the line ammo for extreme distance shots. I just make what i need for my given task.
Great analysis, you have come a long way in this particular subject. The 7.62 of the 2550s isn't absurdly higher performing in comparison to modern ammunition. I reload my own (albeit hot) and regularly exceed the muzzle velocity outlined in 2550 ammunition. What baffles me however, is that with the advanced metallurgy of the UNSC, they still rely on brass cases. At some point, pressure will exceed what a thin wall of brass can take and will split, usually explosively, near the primer pocket to the rear of the case. In fact, the new 6.8x51mm developed for the US Army reinforces the primer pocket with a steel back end that the rest of the brass case is pressed into. This allows much hotter loads which is intended to retain enough velocity to break ceramic body armor out of a relatively short barrel. The UNSC however, should be using some inconceivably hard cases which are capable of withstanding immense chamber pressures that would be indicative of 500 years of ballistic development. 3000 fps just seems underwhelming for a society that can FTL travel.
I like the idea of the bore having accelerators. Even if that's not the case, other fiction could adopt neato theories like that for small arms.
my head canon is they use plastic explosives as propellant since IRL they only don't because of the insane pressure makes the added barrel thickness not worth the benefit but in halo they can make power armor so they've likely got material fabrication down to a T making the current issues non factors
We could be looking at a hybrid cartridge like the 6.8x51. Instead of a 6mm round its still a 7.62 but using a better propellant and hybrid case.
Also what about pulse rifles? Instead of a firing pin its an electronic igniter, that could potentially propel the round at a higher velocity?
I don't remember the Remington E-tronX boasting anything like that. I'm sure marketing would hype it to death if it boosted pressures even 5% more than traditional explosive priming.
@@JohnS706 Look up ETC guns.
You pick the best music for these videos. Your low tone mixed with the knowledge paired with sci-do theory is enhanced by the music choice. It makes me remember why I love this series. Thank you, I’m happy you love this franchise. 🤜
Sci-fi*
I like the guidelines.
As a firearms guy, it's likely that they're using some new kind of projectile which increases the energy transfer from the bullet to the object it's hitting.
That would make sense...
But they're literally just still slinging lead and tungsten.
However, there's always new advancements in projectile design that increases the energy released into the target.
Not to mention powder advancements which can increase pressure and velocity, and maybe an advancement in casing strength which can allow them to be loaded to higher pressures.
No amount of science can explain how the AR magazine works though lol
As someone who reloads ammo, I agree on all these points, doubly so with regards to the magazine
Here's my thought:
They have a propellant so massively powerful compared to ours, they were able to reduce each bullet to just 9 grams, while still increasing the kinetic energy. Basically, it ways roughly 1/3 as much as modern equivalent rounds, but the bullets fly 3x faster so it works out.
This doesn't account for the muzzle velocity being too low, but maybe they're hybrid rounds that have some lingering propellant attached to the bullet itself that ignites after the bullet leaves the muzzle. Like a second-stage booster sort of thing.
While admittedly a bit far fetched, it's fairly reasonable compared to alternatives, and even would explain why the accuracy for the assault rifle is so ABYSMALLY low, as the second-stage boost would undoubtedly throw the trajectory off.
I dunno, just a thought.
or perhaps the rounds are hybrid plastic and powder propellant's since they've got such advanced material fabrication the barrel's could handle the pressure with blowing up
Halo was the favorite gaming franchise of my brother an its really growing on me. I have become facinated with your channel and halo as a gun. hope you all have a good day may you have luck!
Honestly, for my own writing I've been of the mind of using coil gun assist or even primary propulsion while a powder charge is used as a 'lift' charge to get initial velocity. So I like the idea that this may be one of the hidden possibilities (perhaps in the mind of Joe Staten and never written down properly as projects moved on) for increased power.
That said, alongside changes in propellent composition, it could also be physically formed differently in such a way that while volume taken up by the powder charge isn't any different it provides a more energetic reaction. Something with more micro surface area that increases pressure, alongside metallurgic advancements allowing for comparatively high chamber pressures without heavily increased wear and tear on the internals as well as buffering systems that keep recoil from being a major issue.
There's also the with the increased weight factor, lead might not be the metal being used for the bullet itself. Even today brass rounds are on the market for big game (elk and similar) hunting and more environmentally friendly ammunition. Though the former was achieved because it was fond that even at 'standard' powder charges, the increased weight of the bullet imparted significantly more energy. The main body of the bullet could be brass while there's a softer tip to allow for some moderate expansion. Though without a soft tip, it already makes the entire round a potentially armor piercing round as it's stated to be. Then not requiring a core within the round itself.
You sound like you need to be making content too.
@@praetorianstride5948 I mostly get my inspirations for working off of this sort of thing is by having something put in front of me and be made to think about it. I love having my brain roll on these things but I don't think to hard about it until Someone like 00 says "Well... This could be why." basically. I'm a better in collaboration than anything. I greatly appreciate the compliment, man. ^_^
I always thought it was interesting that the UNSC doesnt have pulse guns like the Colonial Marines from Aliens or the Mobile Infantry in the film sequels. I mean how does the weapons marines carry not change much but the fact theyre going planet to planet fighting an advanced alien race is the name of the game or warfare in this case.
It’s because Bungie threw together the world and just set the start date 2550s on a whim. For comparison Star Trek is 2400. Really the UNSC is humanity in a 100 - 200 years with some 80s sci fi ascetics. Not half a millennia in the future and we still have machine guns.
@@or6397 Funny you should mention Star Trek, that comparison actually highlights several reasons why the UNSC doesn't seem to develop very fast.
1. The Federation is an alliance that pools the collective knowledge and experience of over a hundred different species (some of which have already been in space at least a couple millennia before humanity showed up), while the UNSC is just humanity fumbling in the darkness by themselves.
2. The Federation has an abundance of enemy factions, both major and minor, that's shown to develop rapidly due to the constant arms race with competitors. The UNSC, by contrast, has no such external pressures to develop and has been established to have fallen into centuries of complacency because of it.
@@vegeta002
& wasn't til the Covenant came knocking they were forced to play catchup. Took humanity trillions of credits to go from having bulky suits with wires everywhere that would barely lifted a crate in logistics to now full blown OP assault mech suits that would crush an elephant's head by looking at it in just 25 years all thanks to the cultural & political pressure from Covenant.
@@tristanbackup2536 There's a UNSC soldier that credits the terrorists for giving them the kick up the arse they needed, since they were the reason the UNSC started to build-up their forces.
If not for that, the UNSC would have been much smaller and less-prepared when the Covenant showed up and there wouldn't have been any Spartans.
Unless you know, to most 7.62 is 7.62. Even though x39 and x51 are both quite different.
It's like in Deus Ex (the early 2000s original) with the assault rifle.
Was probably _supposed_ to be 7.62x39 (Warsaw) but because they're game developers, not armourers it turned out to e 7.62x51 (NATO). And if anyone did care, it was too late and too much effort to change.
It's an easy answer for the small arms: _better propellants_ instead of modern ones. Essentially, the outside might be familiar to us, the _internal_ stuff isn't. There is this system called _Guns! Guns! Guns!_ that went into gun design, and as you advance across the ages, the better your propellants (and other bits like the barrel and receiver) get. While gun propellants haven't changed much in our current weapons (we're still largely using WW2/Cold War era propellants), the centuries ahead UNSC is using far more effective propellants that aren't Electrothermal Chemical (ETC), though the latter has the problem of being extremely limited in velocity (non-ETC propellants have a ceiling of 1.8km/s, while ETC propellants have a range between 2km/s to _4km/s_ in terms of velocity).
My guess would be that casing technology has advanced to such a degree that the chamber pressure of each round has risen dramatically
as well as the material the barrel is made out of otherwise you'd get a banana shotgun (look it up it's funny)
The UNSC 7.52x51 round probably has a tungsten core wrapped with lead and copper jacket. I was thinking the along the same lines about a rail gun boosting.
Also the 51mm dimension in 7.62x51 NATO is the cartridge case dimension not the overall length of the complete round
And 7.62mm is the diameter of the bullet (what actually comes out of the barrel), not the base of the cartridge.
Convenant are energy based weapons and defense. It would make sense their armor isn't designed to withstand kinetic weapons.
Wouldn't increasing the power of the propelet make the gun very uncomfortable to shoot for the reguler soilders of the unsc? Especially considering this is a fully automatic 308 round we are talking about basically? Id imagine it would be fine for spartans but for anyone else it would feel like they'd be getting kicked over and over in the shoulder. So out of all the possibilities the one the makes the most sense to me would be to hybrid design you talked about of the guns being both gas powered and magnetically enhanced, this way a reguler soilder can just turn off the magnetic booster making it a normal gun more or less, but a spartan can turn it on to make the round powerful.
You are assuming that the normal soldiers of the UNSC aren't enhanced at all.
@@MastaChafa Well... they canonically aren't right? Except if they are an odst which is still more rare than your average soldier I think.
That was my first thought when I read that the AR fires 7.62. The recoil would be insane in full auto out of a bullpup configuration but I remember reading a few times, and don't take this for gospel as I cannot provide any sources unfortunately. I remember reading that UNSC weapons utilize advanced recoil mitigation technologies.
@@BreakerXXIV Well depending on how they do it I suppose recoil mitigation technology isnt particularly super advanced. We have modern infantry weapons that have advanced recoil mitigation like the kriss vector.
But given that the assult rifle would need to shoot an elites shield several times for the shield to be depleted im guessing the AR would need to be used on full auto to ever be effective against elite shields, but at the engagement ranges they would be using the AR its full auto setting would be WILDLY inaccurate for your average solider, even with advanced recoil mitigation. Even during the times of the Vietnam war I believe the m16 was most often used in (if not out right locked into) burst fire mode as using it in fully auto mode was bad at preserving the weapons hit per round fired ratio, where as burst preserved that ratio alot better.
Gas systems and barrel lengths help with recoil mitigation. For example: a 10.5 M4 and a 20inch M16A4. Both can accept and fire the same rounds, but it's generally agreed upon that the M16 has a softer recoil impulse due to a longer gas system (10.5 has a carbine length and M16 has a rifle length) and the barrel (more mass, means more weight to absorb the kick unless it's a pencil profile, but that's a different tangent). Given that a Halo AR is a bullpup with a 30 something inch barrel, I don't have hard time believing that standard grunts would be fine with it. That and if we go by the US Army's standards, weapon familiarity and proficiency is highly stressed, even for non combatant roles. So, I'd assume each grunt has been brought to the range with their rifle enough to be familiar know how the rifle performs
That intro was cathartic. 😌
I imagine more advanced metals/alloys could also be a factor. Unless I'm mistaken or missed someting
One Siri that I’ve always had ever since going back to the original halo combat evolved game is one reason why the ammunition is such high caliber could potentially be simply due to the fact that the humans have decided to compensate for their technological inferiority against the covenant and later on the banished by simply using sheer brute force as their counterbalance to the high levels of technology that the covenant utilize.
The fact that the rounds seem to be more powerful I feel could be attributed to anything. From the propellant charge being used in the ammunition being some kind of different type of repellent to something else like for instance just the way the round is shaped or something.
I always wondered about this. I assumed the weapons firing systems were more powerful like miniature rails guns but couldn’t really do that with rapid fire weapons. But with future tech and material is more scientifically possible. I always wonder how guns are able to be fired in space since no oxygen and if they used an alternative to gunpowder. Also why’s didn’t the Unsc make their own version of plasma weapons by reverse engineering them. Seriously they managed to copy the shield technology. I thought they would do that to even the playing field. There’s also the promethium weapons surprise no trying to use ancient technology for a more powerful weapons and tech.
So the UNSC is trying and in some old lore pointed to the spartan laser being the products of those attempts. Plus theres also the fact that the newer frigates in the UNSC navy (scene in halo 4-infinite) are using similarly reversed engineered tech for their main weapons. But considering both in games and in cannon the UNSC didnt know how to recharge/reload those plasma weapons it may have been impossible or impractical to completely replicate them. Theres also the fact that it maybe to much of a power draw issue considering it takes the entire chest rig and a nuclear power plant in the back of mjolnir armor to recreate the shield tech which the Elite harnesses do more powerfully with a smaller generator.
From what i understand, any ordinary modern weapon can fire in space. But.. heat will build up in sustained fire because radiation is inefficient for cooling, any normal lubrication will boil off in vacuum leaving a gunky mess to potentially jam the weapon, and if there are any bare metal parts touching they will weld together because space is weird like that. The cartridges are self contained, they dont require any ambient air to operate, though if there's a gas operating mechanism on the weapon it may need some adjusting because its not fighting atmosphere.
Plasma weapons were probably researched in the background, but projectile weapons are significantly simpler to produce when your entire war machine is geared towards making and using them. Promethian weapons werent encountered until after the war as far as i know, so they probably werent available to be examined or utilised.
You underestimate the power of _røck._ And if you can make a MAC gun the length of two airport airstrips, which can rip a Covenant supercarrier in half even with it’s shields, why bother with plasma?
@@decimation9780 The only credible argument against that would be not plasma but laser weaponry and its argument would be the concept a near unlimited ammo as long as you could remained fueled. Which would me less need for ammo storage and more room for fuel to power generators. But that wasn't a halo thing so much as beam/laser weaponry was minimal for the covenant. SO RETURN TO ROK.... ROK IS FINE.
@@Jiffedup Lasers are kinda shit, tbh. Think about it, to even have a weaponized energy weapon, aka a laser, you need something the size of a car in order for it to even have a good chance of killing someone. The there’s the issue of components, and a battery. You’d basically need a miniature nuclear reactor in your weapon in order to have a decent supply of energy, and the total time and resources spent on researching energy weapons just isn’t worth it. Meanwhile there’s the humble rock, which when big enough, can destroy planets, there’s the bonus of a big enough rock being impossible to destroy in time before it slams into whatever it was being aimed at, and you can harvest the big rocks to make even better rocks!
I'd say its probably a mixture of things, such as Electrothermal Chemical Ignition in place of primer, likely a titanium-alloy barrel for higher pressure propellant. This mixture of changes could offer a lighter round, increased powder load with additional oxidizer and higher velocity bullet. Considering the UNSC makes use of titanium alloy armor on its infantry, its gonna need a denser/harder material other than lead, assuming they don't use depleted uranium rounds.
Is it cannon that the DMR does more 'damage' per shot than the assault rifle, despite both using the same 7.62x51 mm round?
I don't see why it wouldn't. Assuming it has a longer barrel than the assault rifle, it'd have more muzzle velocity. Thus more penetration. I don't know about it being canon though
@@Wisewolf_of_Avalon Ah. Didn't think about that, I was thinking that maybe the casing was longer or wider, allowing it to carry more propellant.
Well, the most simple answer is that it's just game mechanics. A more technical answer is what @WisewolfOfAvalon said
Doesn’t it fire 7.62x51 AP?
Edit: Just checked my Halo Encyclopaedia and the M395 fires AP round but M392 is standard 7.62.
Strange to hear someone say that unsc weapons are too powerful. Growing up I usually got told about how the unsc weapons and vehicles are too weak.
The powder is either more powerful solution or there's an oxidizer in the powder giving it more power.
Maybe it is solid rocket fuel of hydrogen and oxidizer.
@@WolfeSaber9933 no too dangerous. That's an ammo explosion that's too easy to produce. Added oxidizer yes but the powder is not that much more powerful than what we have today.
@@barrybend7189 There have been test using rocket fuel as a propallent for cannons. Also, some advance cannons in test use a plasma to lit the propallent instead of traditional design. This allows the round to be better stored since it needs the plasma to ignite, not be heat from incoming fire.
@@barrybend7189 The rocket fuel propallent have show to fly faster to railgun tests.
I saw the first episode of the halo show and I was confused as to how an ak47 didn’t do Jack sugar to the elites shields. Now here u are a few weeks later with this vid. Crazy timing was lol. Thanks dude. Good work
2:56 Those measurements are mcfucking wrong
I think I know to what you are referencing. The length of the case is 51mm, verses the overall length of the round being 71mm. I agree, perhaps I should have marked the lines to indicate the case length and not the overall, but if I did that I'd get other people saying that I put the lines in the wrong place. So since the literal measurements are in the name (7.62 x 51mm), I decided to go with the former. Completely appreciate what you're getting at though. Kudos to you.
Please explain...
@@Installation00 Literally do both, 71mm overall, 51mm case length, 71.1 and 51.2, but curious pedantics at that point, and 12mm rim and 7.62mm bullet, 7.82 really, but again pedantics
I would like to put forward the idea, of gyrojet bullets (self propelling) it would explain the inherent innacuracy of the assault rifle, and the lower weight of the bullets, while the muzzle velocity remains the same, the kinetic energy would increase as the bullet propels itself.
When fighting the Covenant, there's no such thing as "ridiculously overpowered for a sidearm".
There's only "Can we make this stronger?" and "Why haven't you made this stronger yet?".
at least part of the increased velocity, and therefore energy, is most likely due to the bullpup design. One of the main features that is seen as a strong point of bullpups is the fact that a longer barrel can be put into a overall shorter rifle. Based on the scale of the rifle in a spartan's hands, the barrel is likely 24-30" while the standard for 7.62 NATO is generally 20-24". Rifle rounds such as 7.62 NATO can see significant increases in velocity out of longer barrels. Therefore, with development in propellent over the hundreds of years before Halo takes place, combined with a longer barrel, should account for the increase in energy we see, based on the numbers from the lore and games.
They *_really shouldn't be,_* given that 7.62 rounds are outdated by our _modern-day standards,_ never mind 500 years in the future. I hear, over and over from other fans, that the UNSC has extremely advanced propellant systems, but I have seen literally no corroboration of that in any of the lore. It would be great if 343 confirmed that, for certain, so that shit makes a little more sense.
Yeah, the NGSW program, whether or not you agree with the decisions or not, has shown that we can go alot further with not just propellants, but also round structure as well. This being said, there is a limit to what you can get out of chemical propellants given the physics of expanding gas and such. We are not close to it in small arms, but we kinda have reached that performance limit in larger artillery pieces.
I'm actually surprised how UNSC small arms and even the Scorpion's main gun still use gunpowder despite how common MAC cannons are.
So one thing I think could explain both the decreased weight of the round and increased power is polymer cases. The military is already experimenting with this now. The change the internal dimension of the case to make the propelent burn more efficiently. Also they could be using a electronic/ plasma ignition system which are also being tested now. These both increase the velocity of the projectile because they allow the use of more advanced harder to ignite powders. Yet another option is that lighter bullets travel faster so if you went with the original weight of 9.3 grams or so but you used a light weight bullet in a polymer case that like we mentioned earlier is more efficient as well the velocity could be significantly increased without the use of much novel technology.
Just some fixes with some errors
1. The Chaingun (The M41 LAAG "Vulcan") fires a 12.7x99 AP rounds, which is the .50 BMG fired from our modern day Browning M2 Machine Gun. The Tri-Barrel helps with the Vulcans self cooling
2. The M6 Series fires the 12.7x40mm round, roughly around the same caliber to the IWI Desert Eagle, which fires the 12.7x39mm caliber round. It is a recoil powered
I applied the equation for KE when looking at the stats for the 7.62x51mm you have listed in the video. Both rounds weigh approximately 9.6 grams when you plug in the numbers.
A little late, and I might have missed this(winding down for the evening) but it could be a variation of a few things: better propellant allowing a better burn, heavier grain bullet(increases juel of energy significantly), and improvements in barrel technology which would allow much larger bullets, more powder, more chamber pressure, and allowable throat/barrel wear.
Have you also considered the use of Caseless Ammunition and an electronic firing mechanism to produce a more efficient and higher mussle velocity, that could possibly lead to a greater impact of kenetic energy to the target?
The only caseless weapon showcased in the Halo series is the M7 SMG, everything else is still traditional ammo
I always figured they perfected material science so much that the cases can withstand high pressure along with the chamber, barrel and bolt, I imagine these rounds can penetrate much more easily with higher velocity and hardened projectiles.
The powder could be a form of nano-nitramine or whatever it was called that produces much more explosive force with less volume.
However one limiting factor on firearms on earth is our own atmosphere isn't kind to hyper velocity projectiles causing them to burn up from friction but with material science you could make a round out of an exotic material that can withstand great amounts of heat.
In space a firearm works but a major concern is cold-welding metal parts, heat accumulation since there is no air to cool the barrel and lubricant evaporation.
You'd have to solve all 3 problems or use directed energy weapons solely in space.
There've been a few people who have noted some similar ideas. And while I love the idea of a hybrid coil accelerator system, you're probably correct that it is highly unlikely. But you did mention the "hardened" bit to the rounds and that leads me to believe that they are using a far more volatile powder or compound for their rounds. Someone noted that hardening the casing of rounds can increase the chamber pressure which leads to a higher velocity. So if you have a far more volatile powder in a hardened case, then it'd make something like a 7.62 x 51mm fly a damn sight faster and harder. I'd also like to think that the rounds are electronically fired. Instead of having a pin, you have a small arc or completed circuit that ignites the compound. Allowing the weapon to potentially cycle way WAY faster.
I like the idea of triple powder in small arms, plus the electromagnetic rail in barrel. Also, the materials the rounds are made from could be much lighter and denser. Its game lore.
It comes down to mass, density, velocity, and speciality ammunition (Armor piercing, explosive, tracer, etc).
They could definitely be using a higher performance propellant which would increase velocity. They also could be using heavier metal for standard ammunition (tungsten or uranium core for more mass and armor penetration).
Outside of those two options some sort of specialty ammunition might explain the damage output. Something unique like a mini shaped charge core with copper jacket - which would essentially make them plasma bullets? It could explain the frequency of sparking light when the rounds hit objects (normal bullets don’t spark often).
Glad your back in arms brother!
I personally think it's a combination of a more advanced propellant (They're on different worlds now too, so they could probably find other minerals and materials to improve propellants). I don't think they're MAC rounds because if they're using a propellant, I don't think the magnetic charge would be of much use, it make the propellant useless.
2:04 The m6 series isn't all that bad, imo. At least from the perspective if it was first introduced during ww1 or something and if I'm right about weights of projectiles.
The M6G, the main magnum you see in games uses the 12.7x40mm cartridge. Though said cartridge is also sometimes stated to be 12.7x30mm which might be a difference in version or just another mistake on someone working on making the descriptions for things.
The M6G is said to weigh about 2700g empty and about 2950g loaded with 8 cartridges. Assuming the magazine weighs as much as a m1911 magazine or about 80-100g each cartridge and the loaded weight is for all 8rds then it should be about 18.75-24g per cartridge. This is about the same range as a standard 45acp/11.43x23mm cartridge which can weigh between 18-23g.
The M6G pistol isn't really pushing the bullet all that fast. With the 12.7x40mm M225 SAPHE muzzle velocity of about 427m/s. It should be noted that the M6G is frequently discussed as a Up-sized/Spartan sized pistol. Which is larger than the more common standard M6A, M6B, M6E, M6F, and especially fot the M6K and M6P which were for concealed carry. Such features are likely to include a longer barrel which would skew the capabilities of the 12.7x40/30mm cartridge toward being stronger than is typical. At the same time it isn't much of an improvement compared to a standard full-sized m1911 pistol which can manage velocities of 255-621m/s which is accomplished with a 6-14g projectile.
The projectile weight is iffy to calculate given that we don't know how much the powder weighs, the material the casing is made from, and the style of primer used. I believe the projectile is pretty lightweight for the diameter and might actually be on the lighter end of 45acp cartridges. This based on the fact a full cartridge seems to weigh as much as a normal 45acp/11.43x23mm cartridge but has a larger circular area (12.7mm projectile has a circular area of about 126.7mm vs 11.43mm/45acp which has a circular area of about 102.6mm), the 12.7x40mm cartridge is longer than the 45acp/11.43x23mm cartridge (12.7mm has a case length which is about 7-17mm longer), and the magazine itself needs to be wider and integrate technology which allows for ammo counting.
Assuming the 12.7x30/40mm cartridge is similar to the 45acp/11.43x23mm projectile or the entire cartridge in terms of weight. Then it would be pushing a 6-24g projectile at the listed 427m/s for a total muzzle energy of 547-1886j.
This isn't too bad, but it also isn't great.
Given that you could just carry an M1911 or better yet a pistol caliber carbine. For example the CMMG Resolute is only 2720g, can use 30rd magazines that fit 45acp, and would be much easier to use in combat given it's a rifle. If the UNSC is full of broke bitches they could go with a Hi-Point style carbine which can fit 20rd magazines. These carbines would allow for a longer barrel length and thus more muzzle velocity and thus more energy, higher velocity also allow for potentially better accuracy in environments with gravity, multiple points of contact allow for better awareness of the weapon when snap shooting, multiple points of contact allow for better recoil control, and easier mounting of accessories. Part of why the M1 carbine and P90 were encouraged as replacements for pistols like the m1911.
Personally, I'm a fan of just getting an modernized/futuristic AR-15, M4, or a MK18. Seeing as in real life people have managed titanium and carbon fiber AR-15 rifles which only weigh 1800g though the Mk18 is 2670g and 1990s m4 is 2920g it's likely a futuristic version would weigh less and do more. With each 30rd magazine being about 380-480g and even lighter 60rd mags a basic loadout of 180rds is about 3.9-6kg. A lot less weight while potentially doing more than a M6G with 40-88rds for 4.7-5.5kg. Not to mention even from a pistol or short carbine barrel 223 and 5.56x45mm can push a 2.9-3.6g projectile at a velocity of 670-970.8m/s for a muzzle energy of 650-1696j. Which appears to be a lot better than the 427-450m/s the M7 SMG and likely the M20 SMG.
Adderall is a hell of a drug 😂
But in all seriousness, I believe the 12.7 x 40mm round is more akin to the 500 S&W Magnum cartridge (12.7 x 41mm). Like you said though, there's no confirmed grain weight, so we can only speculate how powerful it is. I would assume it's at least as powerful, if not more so than the Assault Rifle. As Master Chief has stated in lore that is almost as effective as the Assault Rifle in combat. And from what we know about how fast the Assault Rifle is, and what it's grain weight actually is. The video got it partially wrong, the lore in the books is somewhat inconsiderate with the weight. But we know it fires M118 FMJ-AP rounds. Which we know in the real world, M118 7.62 NATO rounds have a 175 grain projectile. With that in mind, plus the weapon having a canonical muzzle velocity of 2,970 Feet Per Second, it would produce over 3,400 Foot lbs of Energy! Which would make more sense, given that the Halo 7.62 NATO should be considerably more powerful than the real world equivalent. Since the current 6.8 x 51mm Hybrid Cartridge the Military recently adopted is considerably faster and more powerful than the previous 7.62 NATO. While I don't have the date for the Military's 135 and 140 grain Hybrid loads for the cartridge. The Civillian 150 grain Hybrid load in a 24 inch barrel has muzzle velocity of 3,120 Feet Per Second, and produces over 3,240 foot lbs of Energy. This exceeds the 30-06 in both speed and power, even with the same 150 grain projectile (2,910 FPS, 2,820 Foot lbs of Energy).
So, with that in mind, it would make sense that the UNSC's M118 7.62 NATO round would be more powerful than what we currently use! Plus the UNSC uses Tungsten Armor Piercing Rounds in most of their Assault Rifle platforms. Meaning it should stand to reason that it would be able to punch through current level 4 Armor Plating!
I think Halo Magnum would produce a muzzle energy equivalent to, or even exceeding the Assault Rifle. Especially since it uses armor piercing, high-explosive ammunition!
As for 5.56 NATO being used by the UNSC. It would definitely have it's uses in certain situations, especially being faster and more poweful than any of their SMG's. But as a standard infantry Rifle, it would be almost useless against most Covenant infantry, especially Elites, Brutes, and Hunters. As even with a 24 inch barrel, the 5.56 might have a high velocity of 3,180+ FPS. But it would produce about 1,350 to 1,400 Foot lbs of Energy. Definitely better than some UNSC weapons, but overall would not be sufficient enough to pop Energy Shields or punch through Covenant body armor. It would be decently effective against Grunts, Jackals, and other less durable Covenant infantry. But even the Grunts can tank a couple, or even a few rounds from the Assault Rifle before dropping dead. Meaning it would take a decent some of rounds on target with 5.56 to drop them. Nevermind Elites or Brutes, whom would be able to eat an entire 30 Magazine and shrug it off like nothing. It would definitely be useful for Police or Security in the Halo Universe, but not so much for on the front lines other than in select situations. Not to mention with the UNSC's more advanced gun powder mixture when compared to ours, I think they would honestly get more use from newer, more poweful cartridges than exist. Such as 6.5 x 39mm Grendal, 6.8 x 43mm SPC, 6 x 38mm ARC, or the newer Russian 6.02 x 41mm Cartridge. Up the velocities on those already potent cartridges, and I honestly think they would be extremely useful to the UNSC! Especially since they already use other, lighter real life cartridges for their new weapons, such as the 6.5 x 48mm (6.5 Creedmoor) cartridge used in the VK78 Commando!
@@TheTGRproductions12.7x40mm might be closer to 500sw.mag. in size but I find it a bit unlikely to match it's power. As we do know the ultimate weight of a magazine and 8rds to be about 250g this means a cartridge weight somewhere between 18.75-23g assuming a magazine weight of 50-100g. Even if the pistol shoots both the bullet, brass, and casing (23g) with the given velocity of 405m/s you're still only getting a muzzle energy of 1886j. Far cry from the 2660-3907j of a 500sw.mag. revolver or match the MA5 at 3400j.
You would probably need to shoot parts of the magazine and pistol in order to reach the 41.5g of projectile weight needed to reach 3400j of energy. The loaded weight of a 8rd magazine appears to be 250g meaning even if the gun shoots the bullet, casing, powder, primer, and 1/8th of the magazine with each shot you will only be moving 31.25g. So the pistol would need to shoot about 10.25g along with the bullet, casing, powder, primer, and parts of the magazine. Likely, a large part of the reason why the M6 pistol does damage similar to the MA5 rifle is a result of the APHE projectile. Which might allow the weapon to do similar damage to a futuristic 7.62x51mm.
Though the amount of explosive filler in each cartridge is likely to be about as good as its armor piercing capability given than even 500sw.mag. can be stopped by some soft pistol rated armors. Having a hardened penetrator can help with penetration depth of harder materials, however, it's not the only factor. Seeing as slower 7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm steel core both tend to have less penetrating depth on steel and wood compared to a higher velocity lead core 223, 5.56x45mm or 5.45x39mm. The fact 12.7x40mm also has to house a fuse and explosive charge likely means that its penetrate, mass, and velocity have to take some level of compromise. To me this indicates that the gear and armor worn by many Covenant is likely about as strong as typical flak/pistol armor as they are much more reliant on energy shields. Further potential evidence is the fact M7 and M9 SMGs are capable of downing Covenant despite using a very small and probably weak cartridge that only has a velocity of 427-450m/s far slower than the 600-735m/s of 5.6x30mm and 716-933m/s of 5.7x28mm. Let alone the 750-940m/s of a 5.56x45mm pistol or carbine.
While I can agree that replacing the MA5 rifle with a weaker cartridge my thoughts regarding the use of a 5.56x45mm carbine/pistol/smg/pdw isn't as a replacement for the 7.62x51mm MA5 Assault rifle. Rather a replacement for the M7 and M9 Caseless SMGs, M6 Magnum pistols, M20 PDW, etc. Precedent for this exists in the form of the US Airforce GAU-5A Aircrew Self Defense Weapon, US m1 Carbine across all branches of US and many Allied forces in ww2, AKS-74U among Russian tankers and Pilots, P90/MP7 during the PDW trials, Artillery carbines since the 1600s, and so on.
As it stands an AR-15 style carbine/pistol/smg/pdw with 180rds is about 3.9-6kg. With Halo's M6G pistol loadout of 40-88rds being 4.7-5.5kg and M7/M9 SMG loadout with 180rds is about 6kg. Futuristic alloys, better powders, and potential caseless ammo would likely increase the capabilities of the 5.56x45mm weapon system. Potentially allowing it to punch about it's weight class would suggest and given more soldiers, sailors, and airmen the capability to combat covenant and forerunners a bit better.
The obvious answer is they just increased the operating pressure. The new 6.8x51 operates at 80ksi vs the 55ksi for the 7.62x51.
Also I believe the AR has something like a 30in barrel. Add those two things together and you could get that bullet moving much faster.
One thing you forgot to go over is the casing itself. Make it lighter and less thermally conductive. This will transfer more of the energy to the round instead of heating the brass. The US army was looking at plastic ammunition for this reason
Another thing to take into account is the barrel length, with 308 you get an increase of 70 yards per second of travel for every inch of the barrel. This can be seen in a 20 inch barrel ar-15, vs a 16 inch barrel version of the same gun and same ammo.
Welcome back man.
I suppose it could be argued that most of the apparent weight savings are on the casing being a thinner, lighter alloy. I also wonder if perhaps some mixture of compressed gasses are used as a propellant by the UNSC.
For the Railgun assisting barrels idea, I've been making many weapon blueprints I want to make later that use those.
I like how you fully admit there are some measurements you have to ignore because they don't necessarily make sense and are probably oversight.
I also assumed that improved propellant and materials used improved performance, and they just never really bothered to update the designation.
Experimental Propellant was mentioned with the BR's 'Kurz' round, explaining why it's a better precision round despite being shorter than the 7.62.
Advances in metallurgy, powders, and projectiles. Same as we transitioned from back powder to smokeless powder and the .38 spcl turned into the .357 magnum as people loaded higher and higher pressures. And when we got jacketed hollowpoints instead of FMJ or round nose lead.
Look at the 6.8x51 i.e. the .277 Fury from Sig. It's 80k psi instead of 60k psi due to advances in casings.
UNSC guns are likely rated for MUCH higher pressures with far superior bullets, powders, casings, primers, etc. Than we have today.
Pretty simple if you understand arms and weapons development.
Finally somebody addresses the standard issue sidearm being essentially a desert eagle. Like against the covenant used by Spartans makes sense, but the gun was used prior to the covenant invasion, so that makes no sense to use as a standard issue sidearm.
If I were to guess the issue, it would be that back when they first created the lore for the weapon, that they counted the slug weight as the round's total weight, instead of the total cartridge. So as you suggested, a continuity error, that would explain the weird weight better I think than using mini MAC weaponry boosters as it's been in use since 2395 according to the lore, and mini rail guns etc. like the M99 Stanchion Gauss rifle are still only starting to be used for special forces/sniper use only leading me to believe that it's just a continuity error.
A magnetic accelerator booster in small arms would require a significant mass of ferrous material in the projectile. That would almost certainly reduce projectile density compared to lead, copper, and tungsten. High projectile density is important for accuracy and long range energy retention, and ultimately allows for more energy to be delivered in a smaller package. Granted, steel is not exactly uncommon in rifle projectiles, especially as an economic substitute for the aforementioned materials. And 2550's technology shows that they routinely manipulate gravity and could likely use a gravitic manufacturing process to crush more ferrous material into a bullet core than we know how to do today.
one explanation I can think of as to why what you propose would be true is if you look at the trade-offs of the next generation squad weapon program that was recently awarded to sig in the US. a lot of the criticisms of the larger higher velocity round is that you won't be able to carry as much ammunition as you would be able to previously with a 556 and I've heard from veterans that part of what makes you able to win a firefight in a war zone is being able to carry more ammo so perhaps the rounds are the same size because like you suggested they found ways to accelerate the projectile and increase its kinetic potential through perhaps coil boosting technology in the barrel and better chemical compositions in the exothermic material in the casing itself. this would allow soldiers to carry far more ammunition without increasing the amount of weight that they are carrying thus allowing them a better chance of winning firefights
One thing you haven't considered is they are able to exert more berral pressure on the round pushing it out with greater velocity similar to how the US army was able to upgrade its main gun with the XM5 replacing the M4 with a new 6.8 round and achieving higher velocity and force on target with a smaller round.
To speak more on the possibility of magnetically accelerated(assisted) rounds, if you remember halo nightfall they could only fire their weapons when switched on, and I don't believe I've ever seen a UNSC weapon fire while turned off in any situation. Just gives this idea more feasibility, but still it most likely comes down to advanced propellants.
@Installation00, I’d like to add something on the Assault rifle’s penetration capabilities. On the halo wiki page for Depleted uranium, it states that “armor piercing rounds” in general use DU for their penetrators. On the page for “armor piercing rounds”, it explicitly lists the 7.62 nato rounds the assault rifle uses. I’d say with about 95% certainty that the assault rifle’s AP rounds are tungsten jacketed with a Depleted uranium core. Just an interesting bit of information that I thought would add to arguing UNSC weapon superiority.
Hey man! Love your stuff!!! I've been a long time viewer and will continue to be.
But one small nit pick! So in your graphics looking at the rounds, like with the 7.62x51mm NATO. The graphic implies that the whole round is 51mm long, and that the case is 7.62mm around. But actually those measurements refer only to the case length (from the bottom of the case to the top of the neck, not including the projectile) and the 7.62mm refers to the projectile diameter, rather than the case diameter.
EXCELLENT video! Love your content. Keep it up.
It's also possible that the cartridge is made of something other than metal, like a lightweight space polymer. Meaning that the bullet could super dense and make up most of the weight of the round.
they could also use a different matterial or smarter projectile which means when it is flying through the air it is able to be faster as it is not so affected by drag or when it hits the bullet could have some kind of secondary mechanism to deal more damage
One of these days when you come to the US you've got to go to Drive Tanks in Texas. Mainly for the D20 but they have an entire arsenel down there.
Being someone who likes to dabble around guns, without altering the calibers to compensate (because we all know that .30-06 pwns when using black tip) for the difference we're looking at two different things. Either 1) the AP part of the round is not some derivative of the IRL black tip where a steel core penetrator as seen on the M855/SS109 but something akin to SLAP as seen on the .50BMG (and yes there is a 7.62 SLAP but it's less common due to... issues like exiting the barrel before the muzzle) where that has a tungsten penetrator and is used to get inside lightly armored APCs. 2) We're dealing with future Magnum powder or these rounds being packed really hot. The issue with this is the primers popping out which the US Army already has a (hopeful) solution for in the recent winning bid for the XM5/XMG5 program chambered in Sig .277 Fury (6.8 SPC) where the bottom of the case has a steel bottom to help retain chamber pressures in excess of 65,000 PSI if the patents on the barrels are anything to go by.
Honestly, I'd be more willing to lean towards the hotter packed rounds with potentially magnum powder (at least by today's standards) in some kind of brass alloy case to allow for higher chamber pressures with a round that has a more lightweight penetrator to give it is AP component.
Higher velocity rounds most does not always equate to higher damage to target. When looking at the expansion of rounds on soft targets, there is a threshold of velocity where the round is moving so fast there is no time for it to expand on contact with the target therefore doing less damage.