Transgender people and the church: Preston Sprinkle & Christina Beardsley
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Rev Christina Beardsley is a transgender priest in the Church of England and author of numerous resources on trans experience in the church.
She engages with Preston Sprinkle, author of ‘Embodied: Transgender Identities, the Church, and What the Bible Has to Say’ who takes a grace-filled but traditional Christian approach to sexuality.
They discuss how churches should engage with trans people, theological questions of ‘bodily’ and ‘gender’ identity, and the issue of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.
Christina Beardsley: www.sibyls.gndr...
Preston Sprinkle: www.prestonspri...
USA listeners check out our new USA website for exclusive resources and to support us: www.unbelievabl...
Everywhere else, subscribe to our newsletter www.premier.or... and support the show resources.prem...
For more faith debates visit www.premierchri...
Facebook / unbelievablejb
Twitter / unbelievablejb
Insta / justin.brierley
I'm sad that they didn't even get into the Biblical argument at all. The Bible is our source of absolute truth. Since they didn't use That in this discussion, this was really a waste of time.
So you refuse to touch women when they're menstruating?
I heard Preston refer to God's Word a number of times.
@Joel Tope Since the Bible is absolutely, measurably wrong on thousands of occasions, I'd suggest you stop exhibiting your ignorance.
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
Pretty cut and dry.
Not an expert on transgenders, but even I know that you should treat them cordially. We should act with love towards them.
LOL!!!
I’m sure they would appreciate that...
I'm not going to give love nor hate but I'mma be neutral 😐
@Javi G not really.... Btw idk what that means 😐 sorry.
@Javi G ah. Cool back atcha
That was a difficult conversation, but everyone did well to keep it respectful. Whatever we think theologically about the issue, we should always love and respect people unconditionally, because that’s what the Bible teaches.
@CCP BOT The Bible teaches that we should love even our enemies (Matthew 5:44), therefore our love for people isn’t conditional on whether they think or live the same as us. This doesn’t mean we agree with them or approve of everything they do, just that we love them.
Keeping it respectful means critiquing ideas rather than attacking the person. (1 Peter 3:15, Colossians 4:6)
A Christian Priest is an oxymoron, as the the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD and the only Priesthood that remains is the ‘Royal Priesthood’ of believers. (1 Peter 2:9)
To be clear, I take a traditional view on this issue and it’s important to be honest about this. Yet we are commanded to speak ‘Truth in Love’ (Ephesians 4:15) So obedience in this regard requires us to be boldly honest and respectful/kind at the same time!
@CCP BOT That’s exactly my point
@CCP BOT nah she is female
Gender doesn't refer to your genitals, that is biological sex. And that is a scientific fact, whether you want it or not
Just deal with it
@@drizzly9936
That’s correct. Gender can be anything. If I like the color pink...dead puppies...and adult diapers, I can declare gender. It’s fun!
@@drizzly9936 stfu that's a man not a woman. Idiot.
What's the definition of "man". What's the definition of a "woman". What does it mean to transition from a "man" to a "woman".
It is a scientific fact that a male can not become female. Because the definitions for "man" & "woman" have become political constructs without concrete definitions, how can a "man" possibly know what it means to become a "woman"? Does everyone just make up their own rules? And how often is one allowed to change ones confused mind?
Being male as in gender male isn't about genitals or genetics, its a social, cultural and personal thing by definition. Biological sex and gender are not the same (and never were), so your problem is only with labels
It is not negating that a person with a penis has a penis, it is negating tht gender male refers to a person with a penis or XY chromosomes, as that is not the case (scientifically and historically)
That is a scientific fact (that gender isn't the same as biological sex), so if you wanna go with the science then that's it
@@drizzly9936 So what's your definition of a "man"?
@@drizzly9936, INCORRECT. ☝️
@@drizzly9936 wow!..you sound very confused my friend, come to know Jesus as your saviour and then your mind will be clearer.
@@drizzly9936 Nonsense.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:18-24 KJV
My opinion is this person is an Activist disguised as a Christian.
Would Jesus Christ have healed, exorcised or blessed (ie affirmed) a man who said he was a woman who came to him? My guess would be exorcism. What transgender people seek is to be affirmed (& so to be able to affirm others). Acceptance or pastoral sensitivity is not enough. The Church must decide to either affirm or reject affirmation. Acceptance is not a solution that will satisfy either.
Obviously, you have spent some time reading Holy Writ. But this is really not hard to figure out, for even my 4 year old child understands the difference between boys (males) & girls (females); that is why the Left will use our tax dollars to force our school systems to spend billions indoctrinating our children to believe otherwise.
Jesus like many people of his day also seemed to believe that epilepsy was caused by demon possession. So probably not the best example to use...
@@jy1733, respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations caused by poor breeding strategies.
To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who have leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, socialism, multiculturalism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
@Teal Splash, Good Girl! 👌
@@TheWorldTeacher i have major gender dysphoria and I am very close to coming out, remember how the Bible says multiple times to respect every by the thought of a neighbor.
On top of the fact that all Christians say God loves everyone, it doesn't matter who or what you are you have to respect and love eachother don't be a hypocrit and not quote something to benefit your personal biased opinions
If my "authentic self" is to have as much sex with different partners as possible, should the church accept me in leadership? No! How about if I just espouse that notion, but don't practice it? Of course not. What am I missing?
As a Catholic and a certified Catechist, I accept the doctrine of Incarnation. God underscored the dignity of the human person, by taking on flesh. In relation to the trans debate, there must be a starting point. Every human being, at some stage in their life, has felt uncomfortable in the body, everyone. As a male, I will never know what it is like to have a period, grow breasts, get pregnant.
Scientifically, it is impossible for a man to become a woman and vice versa. Should Chris's body be exhumed in 100 years, science will demonstrate that this was a man. At it's core, this debate highlights the brokenness of our culture; the heart-breaking suicide rate among the trans community provides evidence for that.
The trans lobby is formidable in it's outlook. There is very little debate around the influence of Martine Rothblatt, Jennifer Pritziker, Warren Buffet and Jon Stryker. They make no secret of the colossal amount of finance they invest in influencing this debate globally through the education system and big pharma. Their vision is a distortion of God's vision for man, 'Imago Dei', promotes confusion, obfuscates and promotes dialogue at the expense of the Truth (Jn 14:6). Ne timeas.
You obviously read the First Things article on it. These people have unlimited money and are smart businessmen who know how to get what they want. And they have no fear of God. When King Henry took over the Catholic Church in England in the 16th. century only one bishop said no- St John Fisher. Less than two generations later Catholicism was a dim memory to most people in England.
@@jjcm3135 We're the 'universal' Church and there are now double the number of Catholics there was in 1970. The English monarch wa one of many, through the ages, who attempted to crush us and yet we endure. As for your endorsement of the aforementioned; smart, no fear of God. Foolish more like as they damn themselves. Do you have a link to the First Things article?
@@liammccann8763, there’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above, Sir.☝️
There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person or Deity.🤓
It is high time for humanity to awaken from all INANE superstitions such as the belief in a Personal God which created the Universe, would you not agree, Slave? 😩
@@TheWorldTeacher You bear witness to the carnage that the contemporary world has to offer as a result of turning away from the Creator. Your 'World teacher' moniker does not speak of a virtuous, humble or modest human person. I pray in time your intellect is illuminated so that you can move your will and therein respond to the Grace of Our Lord. Ne Timeas.
Actually it is possible for trans to experience that although expensive.
Unbelievable is right. Romans 1:28 just about sums it up. “Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done”. Pray for discernment people.
Chode 12:13 says you are wrong. Why should we care about an anecdotal claim? Why pick this one over the 39478913451345 you can rival with the exact same evidence; anecdotal nonsense?
You can assert this has actual meaning, but its just words on paper until demonstrated it has any truth value.
@@lebronbrady6638 the only way that God has revealed himself to man is through scripture.
As an ordained Baptist minister, I can tell you there are many other ways to interpret Romans 1 and remain fully affirming of the trans community.
@@teachpeace3750 you have no authority over the word of God. You cannot affirm sin. Simple
@@lebronbrady6638 I’m not afraid of homosexuals. Look it up on the DSM-V
Christina seems to see a disconnect between Preston's book and where he stands biblically on gender identity...
But Jesus demonstrated again and again that we can be pastoral and sensitive to a person, and yet NOT affirm or endorse their choices that are not in obedience to God's values.
See his ministry to the fraudulent taxman Zacchaeus (Luke 19:1-10), the women in extramarital relationships (John 4:3-32, John 8:2-11) and a number of others.
BUT being transgender is not going against the Bible, the Bible does not speak on this topic!
A really good discussion. Whilst historically the conservative side has been "mostly about detransition or desistence" and the liberal side "mostly about transition" the discussion seems to be broadening generally and this is also happening in the Church.
Applying one rule in absolutely all situations of transgender issues may not even work practically. It must be said somehow that churches should avoid a policy of making detransitioning compulsory.
There are great Christians who stay transitioned for ever and great Christians who desist or detransition. Varied good journeys can be accepted and compared as Christian options and more knowledge of God's will in this area will so result.
While I cannot claim to understand any of what is taking place in our Churches today, I try to see all sides while staying with Biblical truth. That said, I have often wondered about the difficulties young children born with both sets of complete (or partial) reproductive organs must face. How is that situation managed by family, Church and medical professionals? The child cannot be anything but confused by this. - who to trust, where to turn for information? Any thoughts? I have heard nothing in any conversation concerning this issue. Thank you Justine for all you bring to us as Christians and others.
Intersex children are either makes or females. They're never actually both os it snto an issue. Their eis surgery to fix the problem
Great conversation, as usual. I've been away for awhile, but have popped in on Preston's "Theology in the Raw" blog now and then. Always great stuff.
Gross
If a person identifies as a different sex than how they were born, is that like saying that God made a mistake? Is that possible, that God could make a mistake?
@Amelia Portman The Christian God. What do you think about Him and mistakes?
@Amelia Portman Let's look at your thoughts one at a time. How is He incompetent, based on your massive and complete understanding of all things in this universe? ;) However, are you attempting to hijack the point of this video which covers believers in the church? In other words, does your apparent nonbelief have a stake in the point behind this video??
@Amelia Portman I doubt there can be "failings" in a question, only if you project them in there. I haven't taken a side, at least not intentionally. ;)
The enemy sowed tares
@Amelia Portman Jesus loves you, come to him and receive eternal life.
Yes to Preston Sprinkle's theology.
Oh boy. Can’t wait for the comments
Was thinking exactly the same, Justine your an absolute discrace repent and read your bible your a wolf
TH-cam does not allow to talk about this issue honestly. it deletes all the comments.
Is it youtube or justin that's deleting ? All this talk what about God's word does that no stand for anything anymore ? Run fast from these so called men of God they are fully promoting the anti christ agenda
@@kateblock1979 how do you know comments are being deleted? Did they appear at one point and they are no longer there?
There were 219 comments - including mine - which was talking about an ex-lgbt and ex-transgender christian facebook group called x-out-loud which is a group of testimonies from ex-lgbt and transgender christians who have reverted back to their original sex some of which are now in heterosexual relationships Why are these comments being deleted ?
reposting after previous deleted comment - There is an amazing ex-lgbt and ex-transgender christian facebook group called x-out-loud which is a group of testimonies from ex-lgbt and transgender born again christians who have reverted back to their original sex some of which are now in heterosexual relationships
Thanks - very important
BTW, I'm a man -- not a cis-man, but a man. The Left & the lgbtqxyz community doesn't get to define for me what I am.
Why do you feel so threatened? Seems odd.
Tht would be like saying "I'm a human, not a homo sapiens. Biologists don't get to define for me what I am"
@Red Authority it is a scientific fact that gender isn't the same as biological sex and that trans people are a thing that happens, so if you want to go with the science then that's it
@Red Authority that is plainly false, the term gender used to refer to people was first used last century to refer to gender identity, as opposed to biological sex
@@jmike2039 What do u think threaten me?
With a bit of a chill it occurs to me that maybe Preston keeps saying "Tina" to avoid the "christ" of her name. But anyway a good conversation and I think Christina especially comes off brilliantly
No examination of what the Bible says, no examination of the science. This programme was all about how people feel, no examination of whether their feelings were founded in truth or not. It's very sad how Premier continue to broadcast programmes that are sub-Christian in nature.
It is estimated that 3% of the human population is gay, and 0.3% of the human population is transgender (i.e. with gender dysphoria). These proportions are the same for all cultures around the World. The question to ask is why nature generates and tries such phenotype variants ? The problem around the World is how various cultures accommodate such phenotype variants ! Society taking a hostile view to the phenotype variants does not help matters; society is hostile because it does not understand the issues and hence does not how to accommodate such phenotype variants.
What about being true to God?
Surely being true to God is being true to how he made you. He made Christina's mind, he made her to know that she is a daughter of God. By living authentically she *is* being the truest to God she can be.
@@danh4698 I can see the point you're making and indeed thought similarly myself. If this is true then His word the bible would line up with this thought. Or, God would be cruel to have made us then found fault in His creation for something that they could not change.
However, He's not cruel. He explains that we've fallen short of the standard He has for us. He asks us to acknowledge this, turn away from our former actions and accept the free gift, of the penalty for this sin through Jesus Christ's sacrifice. He provides the holy spirit, who is Him, to guide and direct us through this earthly journey.
Is it easy, no. Is it a paradigm shift yes. Is it following His way as opposed to our own way, yes. However, we can choose to not accept this and, though not wanting this He will leave the person to thier choice and the inevitable outcome.
We ought not to live for the world, nor ourselves. Christians ought to live for Christ and His glory.
While I cannot fully understand the lgbtq people and what they’re going through in society today, I know that the Bible teaches us not to conform to the world around us and embrace the culture we’re living in.
A big mistake lgbtq people make is they think that to love another person always means to affirm them. That’s not true. If I don’t accept one’s sexual orientation, that doesn’t mean I don’t love them. From a Christian perspective, It’s quite the opposite.
Also, I think lgbtq people use the word ‘identity’ falsely. On a Christian worldview, our identity is in Jesus Christ, not in our bodies or internal feelings about our bodies.
I know Christian lgbtq people will be offended when reading this but I pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth about who you are in Jesus Christ.
Ok, Identity is a thing you go as, my gender identity is female but my gender is birth gender and genitalia gender.
Great topic and discussion. More of this please.
Wow such an awkward convo due to not addressing the elephant in the room and not standing the word. SMH so many better people to have on to love and refute this person. Speaking the Biblical Truth is actually the loving thing to do.
This type of thought gets you to 'god was justified in killing infants in 1 samuel 15:3'.
Im sorry for you.
@@jmike2039 he was justified
@@jmike2039 so your pro life?
@@jmike2039 God takes everyone's life. He gives life and has the right to take it when He pleases.
@@martinploughboy988 that's never been how it works. No form of 'life's has the right to take any life, unless, and solely unless, their own survival depends on it.
Taking the life of any sentient creature "cause you wanna" is immoral. What you "made" has no bearing. The people who built my house have no right to take it down purely for their own pleasure, and not out of necessity.
At 26, Preston makes it sound like there is some tension between how we view ourselves, and how God sees us, and I don't necessarily see that as so. God, if the concept is to be meaningful at all, would be situated within the human subject, not outside of it, because we have no access to anything not mediated by our subjectivity. And lest this be misunderstood as somehow being non-Christian, this has deep roots in the Christian tradition, particularly mystics like Meister Eckhart: "The eye I see with is the same eye that God sees with".
The interesting thing with gender theory is that it undermines the foundational premises of not just heterosexuality but homosexuality and transexuality. She wanted to live as a woman. But this flies right in the face of many feminists who believe gender is completely a social construct. The LGBTQ+ community has so many disparate factions without a normative stance on what sexuality can or should be and it makes this so incredibly confusing.
Agreed. The volatile idea that you can be anything merely because of the feelings you have makes it very difficult to give any respect to their ethos as LGBTQ. The people ought to be treated with love and respect, but their ideas hasn't inkling of any rationale in normative reality.
As someone studying gender theory at a Christian university, maybe I can help explain a bit. The fundamental idea is that, over time, western society has determined a set of roles that men and women should act within, which we call gender, and that much of modern society insists these roles should be assigned according to the sex you are born with. Some people find that they don’t want to live according to the roles assigned to their born-sex, and for some people this extends to feeling that their body is different from how they feel it should be. This is a strange idea for most cisgender (not trans) people, but there’s no denying that some people legitimately feel that way. Maybe it is a “mental disorder” (gender dysphoria), but that doesn’t mean they’re feelings should be dismissed. Saying that gender is a social construct is not the same as saying that it’s fake or irrelevant; in fact, much of the LGBT community supports the idea of gender as an essential part of society, just trying to expand how people can interact with it.
@@Ros170386coe Maybe I already explained this enough, but I do want to emphasize that gender theory says that the way most people want to express their gender is already in accordance with the roles established; it is the trans people who feel that they should express their gender differently from what society expects from their born sex that are being dismissed by most of the Christian community, and that doesn’t feel right in accordance with theology of love, especially considering that there doesn’t seem to be a strong doctrinal argument that those feelings shouldn’t be respected
I hear you. At the end of the deduction, certain biblical truths need to be upheld no matter how genuine or sincere contrary feelings may be be experienced. In our endeavour to be polite and loving, we must maintain the truth of thing.
I concede that we as Christians do get it wrong a lot of the time. In that area we need to become more mature and loving.
@@KillerOfWhales I understand what you're saying. I read a book called "Hands Are Not For Hitting" with my toddler son almost daily. It's hard to imagine a book like this being used to teach little boys with Roman, Viking, or Spartan societies. Gender roles change to certain extents and are negotiated by each culture. My point was simply to say that she was saying she wanted to be a "woman" hence why she transitioned. And a statement like that presumes a particular gender role which seems to be debated more broadly in feminist circles as something that is completely socially constructed. So you essentially have a man trying to portray his own perception of what a "woman" acts like, which only perpetuates many of these gender roles. But your very charitable comment is helpful. If you don't mind me asking how do you reconcile your studies with you faith? I would think our gender roles should always be compared against the norms established in the Bible (easier said than done). And I have a hard time seeing how sex transitions are consistent with the Scriptures. But I'm curious what you think.
We were all born in the fall of man. Thinking our natural make up is normal. But.... we must be bornagain.
Walking in the same uncomplicated divine power and love life as Jesus.
Rom 6:5
"Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to Zoë=divine life as he was..."
As also 2 Cor 3:18, Col 3:10, etc, etc, etc...
What is “born again”?
I guess that Luke 14:26 doesn't apply to modern disciples.
This is a great discussion from everyone, thanks so much for the respect and willingness to accept ideas you might disagree with from both sides! It’s a very important question, and one the church has a tendency to ignore and dismiss, wrongly, I believe
Indeed
Jesus is coming soon. Let's try to recieve biblical teaching in these times.
Justin's sweater must have made a transition of some sort and I'm not sure it knows what it is any more.
Rapid Onset has been discredited. There are various reasons for the unreliability of that data.
Ms. Beardsley seem to make zero distinction between the supernatural transformation by having the Spirit of God through His eternal Word Jesus... and any other cultural tradition.
Christianity is not supposed to be a self help program. Is it a self-destruction program if the Old Self nailed to the cross with Christ and being indwelled with His Spirit.
53:45 “I wanted to live as a woman, and that’s the bottom line.” Christina is right. God wasn’t the bottom line, it was Christina’s desires. That’s straight up rebellion against the Lord, no matter what sin issue you put there.
Scriptures do NOT address every issue under the sun! There are basics that Preston starts from that preclude him to not encourage Transitioning!
I think transitioning is giving in to the prejudice of society. We ARE fine as we are. It is the achieving this or that which takes us away from this truth. And it's the story of my unhappy life chapters that I would search to be something else, to think because that man seems happy, or all the movies says so, I should also achieve these things that are painted as happiness. I think it's obvious that the end goal of God is that we should not be so preoccupied with such things. I think transitioning send the message that the key to a meaningful life is to have a certain body, or role, or job, or house. I have no idea how to deal with the fact that people insist on doing it though, it's terribly hard. I have tons of faults myself. And especially I have traits that other people think are faults, but I think are virtues. And other people have faults that they think are virtues. We have to find a way to seek for errors in ourself before we do in others. But how do we elect priests and pastors who facilitate this? I have no idea.
God and the His church will accept all people, regardless of their sexual orientation
that's true, but doesn't mean homosexual sex is not a sin. The bible is clear, any sex outside of a husband and wife's marriage is sinful. So whilst God will accept all sinners, homosexuals will need to acknowledge that engaging in that is sinful the same way any sinner accepts that he is a sinner
@@ericsonofjohn9384 Yes, sex outside marriage is a sin in the Catholic church, all unmarried person, of any sexual orientation are bound by that morality. That applies to everyone. Being a homosexual is not a sin.
@Red Authority Never forgiven!!!??? I’m of a nonstandard Christian faith, so I don’t fully understand all the typical views of forgiveness, but that sounds entirely unChristian to me, and frankly a God who would never forgive for a particular sin sounds evil to me
@Red Authority you’re an idiot. And an embarrassment to christianity. Jesus died so every sinner could be forgiven, including those who have homosexual sex.
You’re a genuine homophobe.
@Red Authority You didn’t answer my point you ignorant clown.
Did Jesus come for every sinner or not? If he did, then he came for those who have homosexual sex as well.
Are you perfect? Do you sin? If you sin then you have no grounds to pass judgement on who Jesus should save.
What bible verse excludes homosexuals from salvation? Back your shitty opinion up
Majority concensus is not truth nor scientific. In fact through history that is the most consistent factor against medical progress. The side that uses that argument, immediately arouses my suspicion. Doesn't mean they are wrong, but it does mean one should immediately hold their argumentation to a much higher standard.
Preston, a role model for today's youth! Unbelievable ; )
Funny how comment's are being liked by others users which your notified via email then the whole comment disappears people are being silenced unless you agree with the propaganda being pushed in this video
Yet, there is your comment. 👆
@@TheWorldTeacher I actually responded to your comment before this one but....what do you know? It failed to post...
@@TheWorldTeacher anything against...
@@TheWorldTeacher transgenderism...
@@TheWorldTeacher ...gets deleted...
Thanks
Comments are been deleting we've had a few people testing it very interesting
Definitely, I was posting something and my account was not allowed to post comments. This is disgusting.
what does it mean to transition?
Come Lord Jesus! Your people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
"This is who you THINK you are". 1:00:30
Can someone explain why some Christians spend so much time demanding people 'live according to (their interpretation of) scripture' in relation to sex and sexuality yet never demand Christians live according to what Jesus said about - wealth.
Yes, the Bible calls Christians to Exhort one another. This man, who is a priest, classifies himself as a Christian. As the body of Christ we need to Exhort him. Simple. Other people who aren't christians. We are simply asked to spread the Great Commission. If they don't want to hear it or have anything to do with it. We are to wipe the dirt off our feet and continue. Also, Jesus was never against wealth. He was against loving wealth. Take King Solomon for example, the richest king that has ever existed and no one was like him before or after him. But we know for a fact sexuality. You can either be a man, and copulate with a woman. or you can be a woman and copulate with a man. But you can be a rich generous man or woman.
A tially it's you liberals that do that
It is God that gives us the power to make wealth.
The Bible says to love everyone and they always ignore it because they feel uncomfortable about it, I am partially Christian and I love myself as a transgender woman mtf
@@Soleial you're nto a Christian
When the man begins "Sorry you gotta talk to me, a white, straight, non-trans, cisgender individual" you know it's gonna be good...haha.
I did find it a bit awkward how he was constantly tripping over himself. However, at least he has self-awareness, and is just doing his best to be a compassionate person.
@@danh4698 Well, I'd respectfully disagree. It is not compassionate gratuitously to self-depricate your own person; especially self-deprication of immutable, God-given qualities. It is pathetic, frankly, and complete cowardice. In addition, it props up this notion that being white, straight, non-trans, et. al., is something that even needs to be apologized for.
@@marcuswilliams7448 I also agree that you don't have to apologise for those things - I said it was awkward, but it was meant in good nature.
As for your other point - I'd argue that gender - as perceived within the mind God created - is an "immutable, God-given quality", and thus Christina is fully embracing her God-given womanhood.
I DONT GO TO CHURCHES,MOSQUES OR ANY KIND OF PLACES OF WORSHIP.I CAN CARELES ABOUT THIS
I hate Religion!
I KNEW movies like “tootsie” and “mrs doubtfire” would come full circle.
What do you mean by this comment?
@@teachpeace3750 He means he enjoys mocking other people’s affliction.
@@kelvyquayo mocking other people's delusions
OH FUCKING WELL
How can Christina argue gender is a social construction but then say that transgenderism is biologically innate? Why is it that most men who transition do not wear hoodies and trainers but heels and short skirts? They have an idea of what a woman is and the idea that young tomboy girls are not absorbing that is ridiculous. I found Christina nice but incredibly naive on a subject I would expect her to be more informed about because her bias comes through like a ten tonne truck.
don't dead name Ellot Page not... former...
So, "christina" doesn't have any answers for the questions Preston places. Sadly not much of a debate...
So grieved. I don't understand why Brierley or Sprinkle feel the need to surrender to the proposition that engaging in a conversation about issues is laborious to do with a "white, straight, non-trans, cisgender individual," or that having the discussion questions anyone's "existence." This is not about whether or not anyone should exist, or does exist, but about whether certain lifestyle choices are aligned with God's Word and truth. As Rick Warren aptly put it, “Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do."
"...whether certain lifestyle choices are aligned with God's Word and truth." where in the Bible does it say "thou shalt not be transgender", exactly?
Dan H, Hello, more than happy to engage with you in a sincere conversation. Are you someone who has accepted the Bible as God’s word, or someone who sees it as one of many religious books? Either way, I’m happy to have a respectful conversation-just want to know your starting point.
Thanks
Rick
@@r1ckandrew Although I was brought up in the church, and sincerely believed for the first 20 years of my life, recently I have moved away from the faith. However, my beliefs on gender and sexuality etc. have been the same for at least the last 5 years or so, so they were formed with the conviction that the Bible is the Word of God, and I believe they are Biblically compatible. Hope that makes sense?
Yours, Dan :)
What garbage. That's not a priest
I love your channel Justin as an atheist so don't take this toward you specifically, but probably not a great look for a religion if we seriously have to discuss this like they are less than anyone else. You won't see a group of atheists having to discuss this as if a gay or trans atheist is problematic. I understand that you are on the right side and its great that we are opening that door in Christianity but the fact that this even needs to be done, should be a glaringly obvious problem for a religion that claims moral superiority.
The only person claiming moral superiority here is you. You act as though discussing the morality of the transgender ideology is inherently wrong, but how can you justify that?
How can you be sure that the transgender ideology is inherently morally right?
you think you're morally superior for being tolerate and accepting of these lifestyles so don't be a hypocrite
Yeah, as I Christian what I claim about myself is that I am morally inferior. Thus the need for Christ.
Atheism doesn't have any moral rules, that's why it is not problematic.
The fact that there are people who are experiencing this disconnect between their gender identity and their biology, that does deeply distress them to the point where they feel the need to literally destroy perfectly function organs in order to replace it with the mere "appearance" of other organs, it should concern you how they deal with it considering how distressing it is for them. We can accept that people should be free to make their own judgements on how they deal with it, but to just immediately think there is no moral concerns around mutilating your body is simply ridiculous.
If you care about people, if you truly love them, you should care whether they are doing what is right for themselves or not.
@@ericsonofjohn9384 this is a fucking sad comment. I truly feel bad that you have to use your religion as an excuse for your bigotry.
Im a moral realist. So I can say that its objectively wrong. But I cant go into my entire moral philosophy in text, but id love to talk to you about it on discord or live sometime. We'd have to compare our moral philosophy and I could guarantee mine benefits everyone and yours hurts others. If your defense to simply say 'why ought I care' then you are just hiding behind actual understanding of measuring moral intuition and progression over time. It seems to be a level of imposition of will and well being.
From a religion that's main figure didnt want judgement, you all sure judge every person for the dumbest reasons.
I believe that God says "let your yes be yes and your no be no!" Therefore he would not have created anyone in the wrong body. Doing this would be going against the ordered nature of God and would speak of a God of chaos. We do not believe in a God of chaos. The LGBT issue has done such great damage to unity in the church. It has divided the church. "Jesus said, "if a house is divided against itself it will fall."
Yet trans people exist so it is gods way also.
@@tucanaaudio9049 Murderers exist too. Does that mean that murder is Gods way also? Peadophiles exist, is this Gods way also?
Stop talking about my soul murders who are bullying murderes
I wonder what sort of body Christina expects on resurrection? Does she think her soul is female but stuck in a male body and God made a mistake? Of course IF God made a mistake he could and surely would perform a miracle and "heal" her by giving her the right body. Sorry Christina, but I have nothing to work with for comprehending transgender notions and to me this just sounds rather ridiculous coming from a priest.
Why do you use the words "she" and "her" to describe Christina?
@@TheWorldsStage Maybe he wanted to make his point but also do it in a respectful manner.
Mistake? Does God make a mistake when a child gets cancer? Did God made a mistake when the first blue eyed people appeared? Does God make a mistake when there is a person with gender disphoria? That is nonsensical reasoning
Different people have different characteristics, I don't know why would a female with genitals be a "mistake" of God.
1. God does not heal everybody.
2. No, he didn't make a mistake. He lovingly crafted a woman called Christina, and when she dies her soul shall go on to the new creation, but her body will be left behind. Surely her soul and mind - which are female - are more important than her sexed body?
We have just had Easter. I think you will find that scripture clearly suggests the body will be resurrected to an eternal state. There is no mention in scripture of Male or female souls or minds.
He
Conflating mathematics “binary” with sex and gender is simply ignorant.
Serial orientation is romantic reactions to different people
Gender identity is something someone feels they are or they truly are
Gender is just a group
What? Try this. There are only two genders. Only a man and a woman can procreate.
So much of this argument is lost because, in hopes of appearing polite, we allow the liberals to frame the conversation. We cede linguistically the distinction between sex and gender for instance or we call a man a female name or use female pronouns. We don't rely on scripture for our arguments and then we apologize for not ceding ground further. He lost because he fears men more than he fears God.
Jesus is much more fickle and vain than this.
He makes it very clear that no aspiring priest candidate will be considered if he has acne, is bald, a dwarf, one arm or leg longer than the other, has a crushed nut, is overweight, etc.etc. And yes....that’s New Testament.
The Reformation and its consequences...
I was Just confirmed into a Church that excepts same sex loving people as integrated parts of the Body of Christ and are not separated into Acts and voids love and intimacy in LQBTQ lives, I see this similare to the ways the Church has grown to give more reverence to women and wholeness to the enslaved through Abolition. We shall Overcome. Jesus is my Rock and Salvation and through him all thing are possible.
Should of had on Dr. Michael Brown with Mr. Beardsley... he would have been gentle and loving while speaking the hard TRUTH.
XY = male = man. So, yes, he is Mr. Beardsley.
@@jy1733 You do know that sex isn’t as simple as chromosomes and that gender and sex are different, right?
@@slash_dash5076 According to who and since when exactly?
@@slash_dash5076 Educate me, please. What is a male? What is sex? What is gender?
@@jy1733 biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth: the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, the type of gonads, the sex hormones, the internal genitalia (such as the uterus in females), and the external genitalia. As for gender, it refers to the socially-constructed roles of and relationships between men and women. Gender concerns men and women, including conceptions of both femininity and masculinity. The difference between ‘gender' and 'sex' is that the latter refers only to biological differences.
****** SPOILER ALERT******
At 53:38 this Revd takes God totally out of the picture when he (quite categorically) states that "I wanted to live as a woman. That's the bottom line! I identify as a woman and that's how I wanted to live." No regard for God's word or the teaching contained within it. It's something they wanted to do. With no consideration for what the impact would be other than to impose their "bottom line" on Christians and the Church regardless of the negative impact on people who believe differently.
This person believes that it is their right to have Christians accept their wants, regardless of Christian belief. It appears to me that what mainstream evangelical Christians believe about sexual orientation or gender assignment, must be thrown away and disregarded and adherents to any other view are demonised because a man "wanted to live as a woman. Wanting to live as a woman does not make him a woman. It makes him a man living as a woman.
The body of Christ should not be contaminated any further. For those who truly follow Christ, deny themselves, and walk with Jesus. The answer is simple
Thank you for this refreshingly respectful and non-inflammatory discussion.
It most certainly was respectful. Preston obviously didn't agree on everything but remained an example to us all. Gender is obsolete and Trans People only reinforce old stereotypes, someday we will all be free to express ourselves WO the need for hormonal & surgical treatments.
So, why isn't it obvious for those engaged in this type of debate, I mean, hmmmm, "discussion" (today's "safe/woke terminology), that professing Christians should center their dialogue over Scripture? Existential claims concerning personal experience, and other supposed evidences from psychology and medical science are not helpful in determining how the Church should view the Transgender issue. Have we become so timid to bring Scripture to bear against every argument that would subvert the true Gospel? Speak it with grace, contend with a spirit of love..... but speak the Scriptures, argue the Scriptures, "reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching" (2 Tim 4:2-4) Come on Christians, for the sake of Christ, and His shed blood, let's show some bold love here... the Scripture, the Scripture, the Scripture!
There’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above, Sir.☝️
There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person or Deity.🤓
It is high time for humanity to awaken from all INANE superstitions such as the belief in a Personal God which created the Universe, would you not agree, Slave? 😩
P. S. When I typed “There’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above”, I was obviously being sarcastic, since, objectively speaking, your inane drivel was fully inebriated with a plethora of nonsensical assertions and unverifiable concepts, Silly Slave. 🙄☝🏼🙄
The problem I see with your approach is we have to depend on people’s interpretations of scriptures since the scriptures don’t speak directly or clearly on this topic. While I’m not trans myself, I wouldn’t want to trust the lives of trans people to the mere whim of interpretation. We have plenty of evidence in history on how wrong that goes
@@TheWorldTeacher Hi there, where did everything come from if it wasn’t created?
@@JPolwarth Hi there, I think you’ll find scripture is very clear on this subject...it’s wrong.
Perfectly stated! I kept waiting for Preston to quote God's word as His primary defense. I appreciated his respect and kindness, but there's a time to boldly proclaim a person's sin.
“A woman shall not wear a man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a
woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the
Lord your God." Deuteronomy 22:5.
Lol... A woman shall not wear a man's clothing & vice versa.. isn't that rediculous! Men wore skirts in those days haha. I they forgot to mark on the clothing which ones were for who! Even today... I saw a woman in a suit and tie. SEE HOW NUTS ALL RELIGIONS ARE!!!!🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
It's not about being your authentic self, it's about learning to be more like a Christ... That usually means taking our interests and likes out if the picture...
true, we should ask ourselves if anything we do will be acceptable to Him.
I don’t agree.
I totally disagree.
That’s Old Testament thinking. This is the 21st century. Catch up...
@@mr.c2485 what is?
I don't recall Jesus expressing an opinion one way or the other about transgender.
Why is the most important thing "to be yourself"?
It's called "freedom".
It isn't, indeed to 'be oneself' is to be selfishly in rebellion against God.
@@rhamlyn100 freedom has its limitations
Right? Since when does anything in the Bible point to that.
@@Becca_Lynn Difficult to know who you are replying to.
Using the modern psychological and sociological fields as sources today is so brutally dishonest, whether Christina knows it or not. These fields have become so wholly, and inescapably infiltrated by ideology that no changes can be made, and no dissidents will be heard. Just as we can’t look to, and use racial studies conducted during racial segregation as sources “the outspoken racist south found that black people are less intelligent and more violent”, we also cannot use today’s psychological studies on sexuality, gender, or religion. Just as we can’t trust gender studies coming out of Iran, we cannot use sexuality, gender, or religion studies from here. Just as we can’t trust religious studies coming out of North Korea, we cannot trust studies on gender sexuality, and religion coming out of here. These fields are so totally corrupted by ideology today.
You will not get funding to study certain topics and say certain things against the woke, progressive ideology today. You might get fired for talking about certain things. You will ABSOLUTELY get backlash, harassment, death threats if you say certain things. Your work will not get published if you say certain things.Your work will be censored (especially online) if you say certain things. You will be blacklisted from further academic positions if you say certain things. Your reputation and credibility will be tarnished and you will be looked down upon in the minds of your peers and laypeople if you say certain things. Your studies will not pass peer review if you say certain things. You might not even be able to graduate if you say certain things against the woke, progressive ideology. Not to mention, the entire time you will be bombarded by propaganda in order to brainwash you, and almost all of your peers will be against you.
Ideology corrupts (let alone the replicability crisis we currently have in psychology, it’s something like ~50% of findings can’t be replicated in the field. Or the fact of researchers deliberately skewing data). It’s absolutely disgusting what has become of the psychological field today, and this is coming from someone who used to love the field, and had spent many thousands upon thousands of hours reading up on it. Absolutely disgusting what has become of it. And this is the stuff that will be used to brainwash your children and the next generation, and will be used pass legislation mandating you agree and abide in it. (There is roughly a 15:1 ratio of Democrats to Republicans to give you a rough sense of how slanted the field is to the left. To give you an even better idea of how massive that slant is: women make up 20% of all engineers, and we all consider the engineering field to be dominated by men, and that’s not even close to how slanted psychology is to the left).
And then, Christiana has said that our society is “dripping with gender stereotypes”. But if she can’t recognize that, then she MUST be able to see the trans propaganda going on today, and how they’re making it seem cool and special-thereby corralling teens and kids into thinking they are trans. If christiana can recognize that society is dripping with gender stereotypes, then it should also be easily recognizable that society is now dripping with trans propaganda, and censorship of people and ideas going against it. This is not a personal attack; these are, to my opinion, absolutely crucial points that need to be addressed.
I don't understand this dialogue
Do we conform to popular opinion or do we go by what the Word of God says?
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 3:1-13 KJV
Is this void?
The Bible as a whole is void. It was meant for illiterate goat herders during the Iron Age.
Definitely outdated.
@@mr.c2485 thats why 63% of all nobel winners are Christians...nice ignorance buddy
Women these days cut their hair short and wear jeans; jeans were originally mens' clothing; presumably that is sinful relative to the Old Testament. Presumably a Scotsman wearing a kilt is sinful relative to the Old Testament ?
May i asked scholars a question as a non trans, straight black man who was introduced to the old and new testament as five year old. What does the was the fundamental precepts Michael Foucault discerned from his historical and cultural reasrch into sexuality and general position of societies in regards to human not animal sexuality?May i asked scholars a question as a non trans, straight black man who was introduced to the old and new testament as five year old. What does the was the fundamental precepts Michael Foucault discerned from his historical and cultural reasrch into sexuality and general position of societies in regards to human not animal sexuality?
The scriptures say death to the authentic, natural self? So that we no longer live but Christ lives in us instead.
I've a hard time understanding, "I feel like a man" or "I feel like a woman". I have tried to find feelings that are only masculine or feminine, but failed. Feelings are neutral, it doesn't have any gender associated with it.
16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:16-18
God's love is not His approval. God loves the whole world but He doesn't approve of the whole world. Only the ones who believe in Christ will not perish.
Satan was the first to forsake his creation & place in the universe & decided he was something else!
This was a fantastic yet difficult conversation, but the differences between Preston and Christina are striking. I am puzzled at how other commenters here on TH-cam thought that they were saying the same thing! Bizarre. I did find it quite frustrating trying to follow Christina's definition of the word or concept of "gender." It just seems like Christina makes "gender" into a self-defined concept, that lacks any transcendent meaning. Yet, the best part of the conversation was simply having a model on how to have a good conversation!!
Does gender have to have a transcendent meaning? Obviously, for practical purposes there has to be a usual sense we use the term, but does it really have to be something set in stone? The only time somebody like Christin's biology would be relevant is if she were a younger woman and wanted to have biological children, or you were her medical doctor.
@@Magnulus76 Just curious. Do you think skin color has a transcendent meaning?
@@clarkemorledge2398 No.
Preston mispronouned himself.... “... between Tina’s and **I’s perspective...” (pet peeve)....
Wonderful interview. Thank you all!
There had to be transgender people at the time of Moses, that's why God must of spoken to Moses about the situation.
Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses...
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Deu 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are ABOMINATION unto the LORD thy God.
When something is an ABOMINATION unto God himself, how can that be the law of Moses?
Just had a thought. When Jesus returns and we receive our new bodies (or are transformed to them, if alive at His coming), is it reasonable to anticipate that any cases of gender dysphoria will be completely and instantly healed? If so, then the physical body and mental state will be in alignment!
Excellent point! If we are going to be given new bodies in the new world, then are our physical bodies now really a good indication of who we are? Whereas our minds and souls are what we keep in the New Creation (I think? is how I read it), so surely our gendered minds should be considered the more important authority than our sexed bodies.
@@danh4698 other comment you say "there is no gender in Christ" to say gender doesn't really exist. here you say "there is gender in heaven" to say gender does exist
Great conversation. Would have been interested to hear more about Tina's study, but the level of respect was amazing to listen to... here's hoping the comments reflect that, but I'm too scared to look :P
Thank you for this, Justin. Your videos are doing more good than you realize.
Good and bad are RELATIVE. ;)
@@TheWorldTeacher Bad comment. (sorry, I just had to. ;)
@@KennyVert, slightly bad or ABSOLUTELY bad? 😉
I just want to say thank you for giving a platform to a trans woman to share her story. The most beautiful forms of Christianity embrace the trans community and support them in their transitions and lives. I give thanks for the beautiful forms of Christianity like that.
But he is not a women ...
No Christian supports men identifying as woman. You don't know what beauty or Christianity is, clown
@@authsoc.3313 Where in the Bible does it say "though shalt not be transgender?"
@@danh4698 1 Corinthians 6:9
@@Mellownius there is a possibility that he or she is a woman. If your brains are feminine, you're a woman regardless what the rest of your body is. It's not impossible that something went wrong in the womb so that a person was born with a female brain yet the rest of the body male.
I also think that there's a lot of confusion and therefore I'm not in favor of hormone treatment for children. I think we should find a way to determine the sex of brains; improved fMRI scans maybe as to distinguish mere confused people from real transgenders.
What I find disturbing is when people point to some psychologist associations - because it can be shown very accurately how these associations are being pressed and shaped by political and ideological activists, especially (but not only) in sexual and gender matters.
I wonder if being our authentic self is a journey rather than a destination. Being true to myself now is different to being true to myself 10 years ago. I haven’t arrived. My views, understanding, insights, vulnerabilities etc are changing as I change and grow.
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. -Matthew 16:24
Doesn’t sound very “self affirming” to me. Sounds like we’re supposed to crucify the flesh, die to ourselves, and follow Jesus no matter the personal cost.
Absolutely. So disappointed that there was VERY little scripture discussed in this video. There was more discussion about personal experiences and medical community consensus than, "What does Scripture teach us?"
The church is very confused: one thing is a celibate person feeling transgendered (transgender dysphoria), whereas the other thing is gay relationships and ultimately gay marriage. It is gay relationships that is the problem for the church in relation to teaching in the Old Testament ("a man may not lyeth with another man"). The only issue of a celibate transgender in the Old Testament is wearing clothes of the opposite gender; this is hardly an issue these days when women wear trousers/jeans !
I new a man once who was a cross dresser. I met his mother and in our conversation she shared how much she wanted a girl. She had all girls clothes purchased. The room was decorated for a girl. A photographer came door to door offering to take family pictures. She dressed her son in girls clothes and had the photos done. He never put that together but it made me wonder if that was at the root of his desire to dress as a girl. He was very mannly in many ways as well. That made me very aware that I don't know another's story and it's possible neither do they but doing the best to deal with life. It's so important we ask God personally each and every one of us.
I was hurt by someone and didn't bring it up until months later. He asked why I waited so long. I asked God why did I? His still small voice whispered people who have been raped loose there voice. I don't know myself like He does. Amazing! I really wasn't expecting an answer. I never shared that with anyone, but God new.
Wow. That was powerful at the end
Scripture is scripture... Stand on what God says love your brother's as while doing it... Ask God how to do it not man
A question for the church: a lady having short hair and wearing jeans - is this sinful relative to the Old Testament ?
Which seminary did this CoE priest learn that Joseph had a princess dress!!
Oh, I forgot. Only parts of the body are male? Seriously? We’re throwing embryology and human development in the bin now are we? Goodness mem.
Kindly repeat that in ENGLISH, Miss.☝️
It is still ultimately up to the person to say who they feel they are irrespective of what others say is best for them.
Not enough theological discussion to the issue for example how might Paul’s “all things are permissible but not all things are good for me apply here or not.