Yep and he said Jesus repented of this sin. If Jesus Christ had sin then we are all “men most miserable “ because He is our hope that He did always the things that please the Father as the spotless sinless Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world
@@joshuataylor3550 he said that Jesus repented, you repent from sin. If Jesus had to repent then everything Jesus did was in vain! Sad to see how far he is from Jesus yet he is a so-called pastor.
I take issue with that along with a lot of other stuff he says but that's not relevant to what he's saying here. With a debate as important as this one, we need to stay on topic and avoid trying to take down someone's argument on the basis of them being wrong on a different issue.
I like how Brandan says David's experience is in the minority as if it's a point in his favor. Yes, a minority of people choose to give up their desires to follow Christ.
I don't agree I'm afraid nearly every christian I have met had to give up some form of desire and not necessarily a sexual one. Or over time God has changed and shaped them differently. It's impossible to come to Christ and not change if you are truly a believer it will happen. As the bible states clearly you are transformed by the renewing of your mind. For me this isn't a debate so much as there is nothing in bible that backs up a gay lifestyle. the only relationship norm that is promoted is a man and a women married which is also the only place for sexual relations. The bible also cuts across straight people having sex outside of marriage (fornication) which nobody debates. The bible is clear no liar no fornicator nobody who commits adultery and no homosexual will see the face of God.
I've been a homosexual my whole life. I'm willing to give that up and follow Christ. Doesn't matter if I spend the remainder of my life alone, my love for Christ is worth every step of celibacy.
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine. I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for. Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated. To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you, we homosexuals are not offensive to what is right. Being YOU, at your essence, is always right. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it! In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned. As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws: It's an abomination to eat shellfish. It's an abomination to cut your hair. It's an abomination to be tattooed. It's an abomination to eat pork. It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates. I could go on, but you get the picture. I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites. Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that. Paul is the one who says: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy. To the pure, all things are pure. And Jesus himself said: It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him. Be pure of heart, and be yourself! Love and Light!
DON'T EVER SAY WE ARE JUST FINE. The love of HEAVENLY FATHER is magnificent, amazing, and can't be compared with anything else. NOBODY can take away the immense joy that brings loving GOD. GOD'S love is so powerful that you become so mighty and able to do what ever you ask GOD to. Yes I am still gay but I have peace and calm, I choose to stay celibate because I can with the strength that GOD gives me. But that is not important anymore, I don't have that urge to go find someone I am just so calm and I feel that my body is secondary to my spirit and soul. My body doesn't dictate what to do. I can't explain it, but I ask you all my brothers and sisters to read the scriptures ask GOD for guidance; it doesn't happen fast but it happens, GOD will tell you that you are just fine and MOST IMPORTANT THAT HE LOVES YOU VERY MUCH, and he has always loved you since the beginning and for all eternity. Staying celibate is big t on the eyes of Heavenly Father, and GOD will give you so many prices. I know most of you are great people have great hearts. Thus is the only thing that you have yo do. BE OBEDIENT.
I love how civil this is, regardless of disagreement I think this is the way we are meant to communicate with each other as followers of Christ and how we should be seen by those who aren't. This is the first video from this channel that I've seen and it's so refreshing to see a respectful conversation about such a touchy subject.
Jesus was not civil with those who twisted scripture for their own personal gain. As a matter of fact thise were the ones Jesus was the harshest on callong them brood of vipers and hypocrites.
@@TheCAP25 There's a pretty gargantuan difference between people who have been historically marginalized and hated by "Christians" seeking acceptance and Clergymen exploiting churchgoers for money. I am not inclined to believe He would be pleased with so called Christians today driving LGBT teens to suicide with their over the top hatred and exclusion.
My view is Side A is attempting to configure Holy Scriptures to a modern day or secular view to embrace a fundamental human desire and nature. Side B is struggling to conform to a Scriptural view and willingness to find freedom whilst inhabiting a fallen nature. In short, Side B is conforming to God’s Word. I’m going to follow God’s Word even if it is uncomfortable.
Hey willy If we are true children of GOD!!!!! baptised walking in right relationship we no longer have that sinful nature!, Being crucified with JESUS!!!!! and raised up as new creations the old has gone and the new has come dead to sin not dead in sin like the world! Paul speaks about this when he says I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I do want to do, cos that struggle with the flesh/sin remains but at our core we don't want it anymore, as the word states the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak! I hope this helps or at least gives ya some stuff to take to THEM!!!! peace!
As a celibate (though not romantically celibate) bisexual person, I have to disagree. I don’t think chopping side a up to wanting to twist scripture around in the name of comfort is fair, and does an awfuk injustice to the amount of research, time & care is put into this topic. I’d argue side a christians care DEEPLY about scripture, so much that often they have gone kneesdeep into the rather messy history & context of the Bible. Are we also just conforming to society when we don’t keep the sabbath, when men have long hair, pray in public or tell people when we are fasting? I’m curious why we allow room for context and interpretation in those subjects, but never subjects relating to sexuality. Ultimately, we are ALL on this earth trying to seek the heart of God, & God knows we cannot have the answers to everything. It is by faith we are saved, not by works.
David truly appreciates God's word while Brandan truly appreciates his own culture and desires. These views lead David to be obedient through celibacy and lead Brandan to refer to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior as a racist.
There’s no good reason to deny the desire for a sexual relationship with a consenting adult, though, and no good reason to make gay people feel like they’re doing something wrong for simply having that desire. Christianity’s backasswards, narrow, and puritanical views of sex and sexuality have caused demonstrable harm to countless people who have attempted to live within its cell walls, and it’s one of the main reasons people such as myself cannot possibly take your religion seriously.
@@tres-adames My old pastor liked to use the phrase "hermeneutical gymnastics." That is to say... there are, in fact, very plain meanings to much of scripture and people often use hermeneutics as no more than a tool to ignore them.
Brandan reads a lot of current culture war into the Biblical text. This is not the way we ought to read. The Bible isn't about dismantling the PaTriArChY. Sheesh.
Brandan seems like a very thoughtful person, who has interpreted scripture to fit his struggle. David seems like a Spiritual warrior, who has interpreted the scripture, for what he sees, apart from his struggle. I appreciated the conversation.
@@cartooncartel6493 As much as I disagree with the man, calling him that is classless and shameful. Counter his arguments, fact check him, but don’t stoop low.
@Tha Night - I shall quote from the Bible, regarding slavery: Leviticus 25:44-46 “As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.” Exodus 21:20-21 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.” Exodus 21:26-27 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.”
Luke NZ : lol, neither of those adjectives apply, if you only understood how woefully inadequate and arrogant the christian stance is to begin with..compared to plain conversation about morality without this religion forcefully injected. it's a rude awakening for some to realize that christian (and other ideology based) morality is quite a low bar. I understand how the brainwashing makes you think otherwise but, it just aint so.
Chris The big “mic drop” post that actually says nothing. HOW is the Christian stance “woefully ignorant and arrogant?” “Plain” conversation? Non-ideological? Huh? Your positing your ideological position in your post, cutting off the branch you try to sit on. You said nothing of substance related to anything objective, other than what internet “Chris” thinks. Trying saying less and substantiate SOME position other than your opinion- which I’m assuming you’ve given little real attention, other than what you’ve been told to.
oh , but did you bring your bag of stones ? we're gonna stone him to death , after this debate .... you in ? or do YOU ... have morals better then your god ? from who we SHOULD STONE THE GUY TO DEATH and send get him a direct line to hell...
YakAngler : try not to surface read. i responded briefly, because the comment is brief and it was what i was addressing. to re-phrase it: the commenter thinks we're having a nice and civil debate about an unsettled matter. reality is that the christian view on the topic is rooted in old myths and thus the debate is worlds apart. one view rooted in our best understanding of reality and the other rooted in incoherent myths. you can have a more productive debate about it by having a plain conversation that doesnt invoke mythical gods. this is like a climate scientist talking to a caveman and pretending it's a good debate. all your additional gaslighting about branches etc. is ironically how you purport to discredit me, without addressing directly anything i said, apart from meaningless quote marks. who is talking about stoning? must be some random bible verse invocation. reality is that whilst christians with means to do so, subvert public policy and discourse, little progress is allowed. because christians have morality backwards, but claim superiority and primacy and ownership of humanity in parts of the world. abortion, gay marriage, AIDS, or any other topic that comes up again and again, is always a matter of pathological mythicism for believers. for non-believers, these issues are settled long ago, and we're not changing our minds because of additional religious discourse based in a broken morality of mythical roots. my god? what is this or other god but a fable of the ones in power?
@@Chris-op7yt So what are your beliefs regarding the origin of the universe since you reject the idea of a creator as unfounded? (won't answer the question) And if the universe wasn't created what do you ground logic and morality in?
Lets be honest, our current sexuality is perverse. To seek justification in the Bible for our pervertedness is absurd. Side B guy is commendable in dealing with it the most Godly way that he can. The Church absolutely accepts all sinners, but we cannot SAY that we want the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, and for it to change ALL our sinful nature... just not THAT. We must accept that the tree will be pruned, and the pruning will hurt. Being a Christian is not supposed to be easy, because the easy way and the right way and almost never the same.
@Michael Van Uytven well said. Nothing more ridiculous than seeing an obvious homosexual, David Bennett, here, encourage abstinence. Didn't help the guy's cause that he's overweight & looked miserable
@Michael Van Uytven And even suicide later on. My husband was gay & his father knew it but coerced him into getting married anyway. A few years after we'd been married, my husband came to find out that his dad was gay as well. My husband committed suicide @ 63, not just for that, but for other reasons having to do with his father. One thing that's interesting is that his father is extremely homophobic. But yet he's secretly gay. wth? His father is a member of the 'Assembly of God' - very bizarre organization.
@Michael Van Uytven Yes, following Jesus involves mental trepidation, among many other horrible things. Jesus literally said multiple times that following Him will be difficult (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:57-58). Since the dawn of Christianity, the best of Christians does not live an easy life. All of Jesus' apostles were persecuted, beaten, some stoned to death, some burned, etc. Jesus also said to gouge out our eye and cut our hand if it leads us to sin (Matthew 5:29-30). I think the message is clear, that to follow His teachings--and therefore to avoid sin--requires sacrifice. In this case, the sacrifice is not being able to satisfy one's sexual desires as well as emotional needs from a spouse.
@michaelvanuytven3072 "Doesn't seem like this teaching gives any sort of rest to LGBTQ folk," Sure, if you believe that 'rest' is unrestricted anarchy and indulgence...Either CS Lewis or Chesterton said, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried,"...it is not that they have gone to Christ and have found no rest,...it is in a culture like we live in, hypersexualized; narcissistic; consumerism; decadent, that has people rejecting Jesus to affirm their lusts/ proclivities...and this is true for all orientations, including the Transmovement, it is all self affirmation rather than "If any man desires to follow me, he must first deny himself, pick up his cross and follow me."
2 Timothy 4:3, NLT: "For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear."
This is the same verse i thought of. i cringe when they call themselves Christians. which is "christ" like. Sorry being gay is not christ like whatsoever. It is just a personal choice people make to do what they want. which of course is there right to do. BUT to teach that is a stumbling block to people truly seeking the lord.
Galatians 3:3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" 1 Corinthians 7:6-9 "I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." 1 Timothy 4:1-4 "Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. They will prohibit marriage... that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." This is the first time in over 2000 years that the Church has mandated lifelong celibacy unto believers, with false teachings that overlook the fact celibacy is a gift from God, as preached by every powerful voice since Jesus walked the earth; this deviation from sound and wholesome doctrine has lead to deep pychological hurts underneath the scars of conversion "therapy" and the mass suicide of Christian youth. The fruit is self-evident. The unloving manner in which the wider church community has espoused a fearful and forced Side B solution has lead to death and severe harm & loneliness in survivors (God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone"). Faced with the abject failure of their "pray away the gay" ministries, the Church now claims that Christians who quit the "gay lifestyle" are "ex-gay" - which totally deviates from the very definition of both "gay" and "homosexual" as stated in all dictionaries (Oxford, Cambridge, Merriam-Webster, Google) - and this intellectual dishonesty makes no sense whatsoever when considering a gay virgin who never once before engaged in premarital sex out of devotion to God; how can someone chaste like myself claim to be "ex-gay" without self-deception? The only people speaking any semblance of truth in this debate are gay Christians - meanwhile the wider church community insist on invalidating our existence and ignoring parts of scripture that deviate from the solution they offer - to walk in the fear of hell, which is antithetical from walking in faith and the Spirit. Romans 14:23 "Everything that does not come from faith is sin." 1 John 4:17-18 "In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." The Spirit taught me, and His truth set me free 7 years ago, yet I have remained single all these years. I know that when the time is right, He will make it happen. My ears are not itching to hear this truth so I can go sin. I am devout to my King. I understand the call to bear our cross, but I also understand that we are called to walk in the Spirit, not the power of our own flesh, nor the reliance of our own understanding. So when love comes my way, I choose to believe Jesus when He said His burden is light and His yoke is easy - I choose to believe in the central message of the Gospel - Faith in Christ to accredit us with His own perfect righteousness, Hope in Christ's work of salvation on the cross to atone once and forever my sins; and to Love God and to love my neighbor as myself, which fulfills the Law of Christ and bears fruit of the Spirit. I choose to believe Jesus when he taught that He is the vine and those who remain in Him will bear much fruit, and not face judgment (John 15). As long as I can bear fruit in His power, then it is evidence that He lives in me and I am sealed with the Spirit. Romans 14:22 "The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves." Romans 14:4 "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand." *I believe my King is able to make me stand.*
The problem with Brandon is that he doesn’t believe the Bible to be literal or true. His “Christianity” has a political agenda and not a salvation theology. He is in MAJOR error, and that is just sad.
Jesus is not literal either when he speaks. Not for nothing he says "grab your swords" to the apostles but chastes them when they grab them to harm the romans when they come to jail him. Because he meant another thing, he speaks in parables
@@nerdykeith It’s not a strength when he is purposely deceiving many people and preaching a false message. There is consequences to blaspheming God. That sucks! I don’t want that to happen, but if Brandon doesn’t repent for it he won’t make it.
Thumbs up for David Bennett. Very impressed for his courage, how the Spirit has moved through him, and I hope he represents a bright example for the rest of us of what it looks like to abide in Christ. Your comments on the necessity of reliance on the Spirit and yet testing that with the Scriptures I think was so important to this conversation.
@@tammygibson1556 Are you insinuating that the only logical consistency afforded to me is to become celibate myself if I found David's testimony encouraging?
@@tammygibson1556 Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute or any justification for saying that? I, a married heterosexual man, cannot find the story of another encouraging because he is willing to deny himself and follow in what he perceives to be obedience to his God? I too struggle with temptations and try to rely on God. Those specific struggles may differ individual to individual but I by no means have to celibate because he is. Nor would David state that either.
The Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in order to join the church. Paul warned them that to do so would be to put themselves back under the law and Jesus would mean nothing to them. The law leads people to Jesus, but Jesus does not lead people back to the law. We are no longer required to cut off a part of ourselves in order to faithfully follow him. The same idea applies to homosexuality and same sex relationships.
Every other sentence out of Brandan is something that is completely contradictory with the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, and I'm not talking just about the passages regarding homosexuality. It's astonishing the bumper sticker slogans and ideas he trumpets from the progressive types that are tired and have little to no meaning. I'm terrified that people are being "shepherded" by him. Beyond that, the real issue here is Brandan defines his own identity (instead of allowing God to) and then reasons that everything must fit into his personal identity and preferences. This is so counter Gospel that it has me at a loss for words.
Wow. He is attracted to males. And other males are attracted to other males. Therefore he is not alone. Therefore he can formulate relationships with them in a loving way. Therefore he can be happy, he can be married and have the legal status of hetorsexual people. and wow! his sexual emotions can be fulfilled, like mine can in my marriage. Wow! That is crazy!
@@1000whispering Gay people can get married all they like it doesn't change the fact homosexuality is wrong. Where do you draw the line with that argument? Do you believe people are born gay? Or born Trans?
@@1000whispering Actually it can and has hurt people but that's not the point it effects everyone because it makes up part of each persons belief system/worldview..
Excellent. I just purchased David’s book. He speaks to my spiritual conviction, as a life long christian and same sex attracted. I’ve tried to embrace Brandan’s views but have frequently struggled with it. David hits the spot. Amen. PTL.
He now claims there is no hell.. and if by chance there is one, Noone will be there because God would never send anyone to hell. He, unfortunately.. is well beyond a faulty interpretation. He's simply rewriting it as he wishes.
Brandan is interpreting scripture to make the lifestyle he's living ok. And even though he knows what he's doing is wrong and what he's preaching is unbiblical he's still doing it. He has sex out of marriage and says its ok, he tells people Jesus was gay, he says there's no hell, said Jesus was racist and had to repent of his sin. And so much more. If Jesus sinned why even worship or follow him if he wasn't perfect. Makes no sense. And he is preaching this to hundreds of thousands of people online. Leading others to hell with him and his distorted gospel. David literally picked up his cross. Brandan picked up his pride n lusts. And changed the bible to make his sins not sin. We need to pray hard for Brandan. God warned him already with the lightning video and Brandan knew it!! Pray for the sake of his salvation and eternity. He said in a video if he's wrong about hell and how he's living he's going to plead the blood of Jesus.
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." David Bennett has found the narrow gate. May God continue to give him the strength to perservere in his journey. His story is very touching.
Christ clearly embodied in both human beings, I listed to them slowly and backed up the video every time each one spoke multiple times; given I found a beautiful godly words coming out of the structure and argumentation of each one's point. This is a case of clear harsh political clashes from tradition and Gay Christians that belong to a very political union as such is the LGBTQ+; so I found even though there was a clear case for expecting rhetoric with plausible deniability bad faith, it was nothing at all. So much love on these mens's words to express very complex Theological positions, and being able to come out of their way cleanly spoken and giving an impression of a real disposition to understand each others's position on a true in god one; regardless of the political paraphernalia that would be supposed behind. It's an exceptional piece of Love expression true tolerance and acceptance. Added to that each ones's particular story was so absolutely moving. This can be so divisive and I expect all comments to take one side or the other as typical in these times where the political has merged in the Theological; but try and listen to it several time and be open to the love and disposition to not exclude the other in their positions.
Well said David - beautiful, passionate and powerful closing comments. This sounded to me like a discussion between the view of Christ-centred faith vs the philosophy of “accept me”. It was great to see such an amicable conversation. More polite than robust, but compelling views on both sides. To me, there were more grounded and compelling views shared from David’s side.
@@jakeschwartz2514 I've seen that video. I actually personally recognized that connection a month or so before I found that video and was shocked that somebody else noticed it. I legit haven't seen anybody else notice it.
I appreciate how David used scripture with everything he stated. I felt like Brandom mainly focused on the wrongs religious people in the church have done to the LGBTQIA community.
If that's what you heard, we did not listen to the same discussion. They both displayed commited study of scripture and both held criticism for recent historical treatment of queer people by/in the church
David, your perspective is simply beautiful and so edifying. This is THE perspective that has been missing in the church. Thank you for articulating your stance so beautifully. May God continue to bless you and continue to be the sole source in providing your a life that is truly flourishing.
Brandon says the word “broad” a LOT. ““Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.” Matthew 7:13 NASB2020
Hearing Brandan's story really opens up an understanding of why he has apostatized. There still is time to repent, and perhaps God has placed him in front of David. This is why I have an immense amount of respect for David. He understands the inerrancy of God's word through any culture.
@Michael Van Uytven You are confusing a lot of things in your comment. First, there is no such thing as a latin septuagint (the first latin translation was called vulgata) - the septuagint was the greek translation of the hebrew Old Testament, written around 70bc if I remember correctly. We have Hebrew manuscripts that are older than that, and modern bibles use the best available resources, therefore they aren‘t based on the septuagint. The New Testament was written in greek, and we have manuscripts that go as early as the early second century. There are scholars that always incorporate newly found manuscripts and put all of it together into a compiled version. The New Testament translations use that as a basis. The translators of the original King James Bible had less evidence at their hands and there are differences (but even they translated from hebrew and greek, not from latin as far as I know), but even the few notable ones don‘t change the message of the bible
As a lesbian I can say it’s not that easy because I am attracted to women naturally and I don’t know what to do because when I think about my future life it’s hard to imagine how I can live on my own
@@giraffewhiskers2045 Hey there! that does sounds like a tough spot. I am a straight man and I will soon be living alone away from family and friends. But one thing I know for certain is that God will be with me. psalm 62 is a good reminder of this. King David was in the desert alone, being hunted by enemies, probably hungry and cold yet he cried out to the Lord who was there. My plan for when I begin living alone is immediately finding a church community to get plugged into. Maybe asking about small groups and events. This is not an immediately gratifying process I would imagine, but I will stay the course and continue to pray that God would sent someone in my life to comfort me and mitigate against loneliness. If you genuinely make that your prayer, I have no doubt God will surround you with brothers and sisters in faith.
@@TS-ee7jx hey thanks man but I just realized today that I am actually bi and I really like my friend who I can’t get over and he doesn’t believe in organized religion and he sees Christianity as that
This is absolutely the kind of discussion we as Christians need to have more of! This channel provides so many great, civil and respectful discussions about complex issues. And to both guests, thank you for proving that people who differ can truly have a fruitful and kind conversation.
@@lifetogether4782 They do not interpret Scripture on the basis of Scripture but make up stories that enable them to explain away God's condemnation of sex outside the marriage of one man to one woman. They pretend that homosexuality today is quite different from the act condemned in Scripture. Their basis is their own beliefs, not Scripture.
I agree with you that Brandon’s view is not what scripture says (I assume that’s what you meant since David is arguing for abstinence). I still believe, though, that respectful and understanding conversation is what can help bridge the gap between the two sides. While I don’t agree with David’s view of biblical sexuality, I have empathy for his struggle with same sex attraction and I think it’s important to hear his perspective. I think you can hear and understand without agreeing with someone, and that’s what I admire about this conversation.I don’t think we will ever convince people like David of our biblical perspective without empathy and understanding for what he has gone through.
@@lifetogether4782 The gap between what God has said & the sinfulness of men cannot be bridged. To convince someone of what God has said requires them to have a change of heart, for a miracle to take place. You cannot convince them.
Respectfully, the Bible doesn’t refer to being gay as a sin it refers to the act of homosexual sex. Any kind of sex outside the safety of marriage is sinful behavior however being gay and living with homosexuality is never talked about in the Bible. It’s a known fact that being gay isn’t a conscious decision.
@@trystonromero7182 You can't be gay without committing the act and the act is most definitely a sin. If it isn't a conscious decision then tell me why some people who were lesbian or gay become straight?
@@trystonromero7182 we'll see my best friend after watching gay p chose to download the app and meet PPL Yea.. definately is a choice. I don't choose straight b4 you ask. It's the natural way humans are designed And no gay will be in a relationship and not Wana get down... So that's not gonna work Even if they tried. Whoever just looks at another with lust commits adultery in the heart
Marriage is not a out Hebrews 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled; but God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers Soooo
So let me get this straight, Robertson’s s theory is that : 1) The Genesis account is not literal 2) The Bible is patriarchal, 3) The Holy Spirit is giving new information that undermines what was already inspired, 4) The church is incorrect about the clear biblical teaching of marriage between a man and woman. With all love and respect, that sounds dangerous! I stand on the inspired text of 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21!
The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does and to go a step further and claim that it condemns such relationships.
@@theroguejester6412 What the bible does mention (more specifically the Lord Jesus Christ), “But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh“ Mark 10:6- 8. Christ gives us a clear definition of what marriage is! The God inspired apostle Paul clearly mentions, “Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in lust for one another, men with men committing that which is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of the error which was due.“ Romans 1: 26. We understand by these two texts (and others) that man was made for woman and woman for man. The anatomical and reproductive structure of humanity also attest to that. Believers who really want to follow the instruction of God Almighty will not look for loopholes and arguments from silence, to argue against that which was clearly stated. 2 Timothy 3:16.
Isn’t it funny that when some people cannot stand on the merit of substantial consistency they resort to ad hominem and name calling? I stand by my statement the Word of God endures forever (1 Peter 1:25).
Great conversation. And Justin you are a wonderful mediator. Was listening to David over on Speak Life, and I think that he is actually a really great preacher and a really important voice in the church right now. So praise God for him. Listen carefully and he always brings everything back to the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the reliance on the authority of scripture to avoid being deceived by the evil one.
Today's context is "pride" parades, and pride is deadly above all else. I see nothing about today's context that may help support any supposedly "Christian" argument which affirms homosexuality. Not that I would ever use the context excuse to ignore Scripture; but I am, in addition to agreeing with your comment, proving that the "context" argument is self-defeated.
@@nicholas3354 Amen, Brother, God was very aware his Word would be everlasting and also Psalms 119:130. The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
It's the difference between a God that Loves you and a God that does not. In other words, the way you interpret God/Bible is the way you interpret love. Authoritarianism is not loving. Authoritarianism- the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom; * lack of concern for the wishes or opinions of others.
@@tammygibson1556 Our opinions and wishes are "dogma" given to us by falsehood. "Whosoever saves his life shall lose it. Whosoever loses his life for my sake shall save it" - Messiah Scripture tells us that our dogma is blotted out, nailed to The Cross, and torn apart in Messiah's Crucified Body so that Israel and the nations become one in Israel (not one in the nations). We are wrong, Messiah is right, we look at God upon The Cross Of God's Love in order to learn what love is. God destroyed our dogma to set us free and make us alive. Messiah didn't accommodate us by letting us suffer in our own falsehood; He accommodated us by being crucified for us, to save us. Messiah bless and heal you Tammy. His blood is precious.
I’m so happy to hear such a respectful and sophisticated discussion about this topic. Both of the interlocutors raised important points that deserve to be considered seriously, although I found the more orthodox argument more self-consistent and convincing. Some of the discussion was helpful and applicable far beyond LGBT issues, deserving a re-watch. We must always be wary of relativist activism influencing our theology, setting the standard of reference anywhere other than Christ. Where Christ is, there the truth lies.
@@sophrapsune Yes. It's a sometimes nice anthology of poems, songs, allegories, fables, myths, and admonishments from sources that had been translated and edited and altered over and over again through many centuries--resulting in a fascinating read for those who appreciate all kinds of literature.
THIS OTHER MAN IS NOT CHRISTIAN and it's not because he's gay or because of his understanding of the scripture but bc of the sheer blasphemy he does against God in his tiktok. You know, for a long time I thought that he was just confused and desperate but what I've realised is that, He. Simply. Does. Not. Care. He doesn't care what the Bible says at all, because there's not one thing in the Bible that he agrees with.
Justin, I like that you are kind, but you don't have affirm crazy talk by nodding and saying "sure". Some of the things Brandan was saying was just simply not true. It's ideology, political ideology and nothing to do with truth.
I don't think he was affirming it. I thought it was jiust a stock reply. He is the moderator after all, not the debater. Would be inappropriate of him to just start jumping in and correcting the guy's theology.
@@willsal7806 He could challenge his statements without correcting. After all, it wasn't really a debate, just two people with similar ideas having a discussion. It's a shame that so many recent programmes have been like this with no real testing of claims.
the woke gospel will always be the broke gospel. Love you Brandan, but pride comes before the fall. you just cant claim to follow God at the same time work to desconstruct His Gospel and misleading believers
Those living for this world will not understand that Christ followers are not of this world but are called to be set apart, an example and a beacon of light in the midst of darkness. This is a command not a suggestion and we all need to remind ourselves of this calling.
@Marianne Havisham except, he never contradicted the scriptures, he corrected the religious leaders who had it wrong. Even if he did changed the scriptures, he didnt, but even if he did, he can do that, He is Jesus. this brother is not only blatantly contradicting the scriptures, he's misleading people, condoning sin and in doing so, claiming that those of us who follow the scriptures are in fact the ones who got it wrong. they can both be wrong but they cant both be right. also in todays world, keeping the scriptures as theyve always been is in fact considered radical. you dont think that being celibate and doing to self and self pleasure is radical?
josh G Whatever other law there may be, love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10 It would appear that if we take a step back from the harmful legalism that has hurt far too many LGBT throughout history, we can better love each other as Christ truly intended. He promoted the spirit of the law far more than strict adherence to rules, and even condemned the Pharisees for the latter. The law leads people to Jesus, but Jesus does not lead people back to the law.
I get a person has gay tendencies or dispositions... but doesn’t mean you need to flesh it out.. I have a tendency to want to sleep with every woman I see, but I don’t act it out. It’s called self control and putting to death the desires of the flesh.
Amen, we do not have a choice on our orientation but totally have the choice to either act upon those feelings or crucify the flesh and live above the ways of the fallen world to serve our HOLY FATHER and be close to HIM and have HIS love(AGAPE) in our lives.
Yes, but you get to put flesh to at least one woman you marry, if you wanted. Someone with same sex attraction must fully refrain and are not given the option of marriage.
@@BornOnThursday yes because in that instance it goes outside the perimeters of Gods design. Forget about God for a moment. Science doesn’t even support same sex intercourse. From a purely scientific and biological context, all animals partaking in this practice would die out within a generation. So both science and righteousness do not support same sex intercourse, regardless of one’s tendencies toward it.
@@lazzy2012 So, because it will discontinue a person's family tree, we should say it's bad and sinful, and teach people to hate it? Wouldn't educating people about this outcome be enough so that they could choose?
@@BornOnThursday do you want science or do you want God (speaking in this case.... but Science supports God when honestly evaluated). So either science, with no regard to emotion or sensuality, simply promotes reproduction, would therefore render same sex intercourse counter productive and against Darwinism, the prophet of evolutionary theory... or God, who made them man and woman with the purpose to be fruitful and multiply. One’s tendencies, desires or dispositions is not an excuse for action.. while it might explain your actions it certainly doesn’t excuse them.. God (not religion) sets the standard of righteousness. For He is truth and all truth flows from Him
I can't believe this stuff is free. What a time to be alive! I've always wanted to learn about gay marriage and it's relation to Christianity. I'm learning to be a Christian and it breaks my heart that some of the beliefs of Christianity may prevent the happiness of LGBTQ+ people. I think it's so important to get this right because the it affects the lives of so many. Hearing these two fine gentlemen have such an articulate intellectual discussion inspires me form my own beliefs grounded on logic. We need to be able to converse about this more everyday. At the end of the day we love each other.
Amazing talk, very thankful about it. So many points well put out. I’ll keep learning from scriptures, from teachers as the Spirit leads to understand this situation that is so present in the church nowadays. I see David delivering a great case and Andrew and both really pointing to inner church faults that shouldn’t be ignored.
Really can’t accept any critique of Scripture from a person who doesn’t believe it is inerrant. Which means he can pick and choose what he wants. His sexual choice is primary; therefore, everything else must be made to accommodate that primacy. Hard to buy that the people in the apostles day didn’t understand sexuality. Really? It is arrogant to think….they were not as enlightened as we are today. If anything, they were way deeper thinkers than us with our Twitter, Tic-Tok society.
I'm a former homosexual. I was desperate to find a way to reconcile my faith and my sexual orientation and grapsed for straws just like Brandon. Unfortunately/fortunately, the bible is crystal clear on this issue. Sex is to be between a man and a woman within marriage, period. The thing is God knew what he was talking about because when I was living as a gay man I had slept so many people I couldn't even tell you the number. I had chylamdia twice or three times I can't remember but worse of all I had a God sized hole in my heart. The thing is once I got back into church and I finally found a GOOD church home I started having healthy relationships with my church brothers and finally felt that love from another man that I never had growing up and my sexual desire towards men began to wane until it was finally gone.
❤thank you for sharing! I am waiting for my same sex desires to be completely gone too. I'm pushing into God and believing the breakthrough will come. Amen.
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine. I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for. Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated. To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you, we homosexuals are not offensive to what is right. Being YOU, at your essence, is always right. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it! In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned. As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws: It's an abomination to eat shellfish. It's an abomination to cut your hair. It's an abomination to be tattooed. It's an abomination to eat pork. It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates. I could go on, but you get the picture. I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites. Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that. Paul is the one who says: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy. To the pure, all things are pure. And Jesus himself said: It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him. Be pure of heart, and be yourself! Love and Light!
...and this, folks is what celibacy truly looks like: elegant eloquence, a calm and collected demeanor, depth, honesty and the peace of Jesus showing effortlessly. nowadays we run from celibacy as if it were the plague, but look at David speaking truth in his flowery shirt: he's glowing. he's clearly free from the idolatry of marriage and better off than most of us singles stressing about not finding 'the one' by 30. just sayin' :)
@@theroguejester6412 anything can be idolatry if it's a bigger priority than God. I feel a lot of people would rather settle for mediocre marriages out of fear, than settle for the will of God.
@@theroguejester6412 that's such a good question! The apostle Paul says that if you want to marry, go ahead and marry, but if you don't, that's a better choice. Not a single mention of marriage not being the will of God for someone who wants to marry is made. I think God, who is loving and just, put into the hearts of celibacy a genuine desire not to marry. So if one doesn't have that genuine desire to stay single, but actually wants to marry... it probably is the will of God for them to get married, if they want to. This bit, I'm 100% sure of. However, I think that some people, out of fear of being alone, pressure from outside, seeing marriage as the ultimate status (idolatry) or simply because they want to feel like they checked that box etc., marry partners God wouldn't want them to marry. So in that case it's not that it isn't the will of God for them to marry, it's not the will of God for them to marry THAT PERSON. This last bit is just my two cents.
Theea M What if a gay Christian has the genuine desire to marry the person they love and raise children together? Where is the harm in that? Is it a God-given desire? How is that any different from the infertile heterosexual who pursues a physically and emotionally fulfilling relationship?
Just a thought, God commanded for people to go and populate the earth. If homosexualty were an option, most people who exist today wouldn't be here. Hormones are very powerful, so much thatcthey can change the outer appearance. We see a lot of phytoestrogens in foods and environment, is this causing problems in human sexuality?
The sacrifice same sex attracted people who deny their flesh and become celibate have to make is huge please love them and be their friend to live alone forever is truly hard
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine. I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for. Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated. To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you, we homosexuals are not offensive to what is right. Being YOU, at your essence, is always right. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it! In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned. As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws: It's an abomination to eat shellfish. It's an abomination to cut your hair. It's an abomination to be tattooed. It's an abomination to eat pork. It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates. I could go on, but you get the picture. I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites. Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that. Paul is the one who says: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy. To the pure, all things are pure. And Jesus himself said: It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him. Be pure of heart, and be yourself! Love and Light!
@@camerong5513 I wasn't making an argument... are you _asking_ for a "cogent argument" for the question "who gives a rat's..."? Seriously, did you honestly think that was an argument? Are you so starved for attention on youtube that you try and create debate in the comments where there is none? Also, its more about having a third grade reading comprehension level than it is about apologetics.
You can choose not to have sex with a man just like you can choose not to have sex at all. You can choose to not masterbate. Walking with Jesus is denying your life in exchange for his. The Holy Spirit can give you the ability to overcome your lusts, but you have to want his help. Its not about following everything you want or like or even your hearts desires. Its about Gods will, not our own. The heart is decietful. We have to align our hearts with God's will!
“He WANTS to view scripture differently” that was an important statement. I don’t even know if Brandon caught that. Brandon wants to view the scripture in his way.
Listening to Robertson's 'explanation' is just like all the others - just a rewrite of biblical text and meaning to suit the ideology. Scripture is the 'progressive dismantling of colonizing patriarchy'? What?
Not sure what y'all think of Romans 1, but if you haven't read Douglas Campbell's 1,200 page book on the rhetoric of Romans 1 - 4, you need to. He is, far and away, the preeminent Pauline scholar and has dismantled the idea that Romans 1:18-32 is really what Paul believed. It's a rhetorical argument between Paul and the so-called false brothers that infiltrated Rome and the Galatian churches.
@@MatthewDistefano If that's the one where he attempts to show that Paul didn't really believe in what he was saying about man lying with man being an abomination etc. I've read material that was far more convincing it was nonsense to read it that way.
In my walk, personal I learned that what ever desires of I have, they are just that desires and I should seek a relationship with God with as much if not more interest in my own personal desires because what He wants matters more, why He created me is more important that satisfying my personal desires. I still fall short and “we’re not perfect” doesn’t mean what I did is ok, but I find joy in knowing He forgives and can still use me for His purpose. It seems today “we” tend to make ourselves happy THEN God and what His will is comes second. Majority doesn’t = right, and right and wrong doesn’t change by era.
God created adam and eve for a reason and others could've been gay Christians but non weren't for thousands of years coincidence? I believe there's a reason God made us straight
Romans 4:5 But to the one {person, human, sinner} that does not work {to change their sinful ways}, but {instead, as opposed to working to change to make their life less sinful or more righteous} believes on Him that JUSTIFIES THE WICKED. {Jesus the infinite eternal sin bearer imputes righteousness to each and every WICKED SINNER who believe His message or His Gospel}, this one's {person's, human's sinner's} belief {not belief plus effort to live righteously) is counted for righteousness. 1 John 5:5 "Who is he overcometh the world, but he that believes Jesus is the Christ ?" 1 John 5:1a "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:" What then did the lost sinner do to get saved? They believed THAT Jesus Is the Someone that saves. These did not seek justification through vain attempts to provoke God to save them through altering their moral values and moral lifestyle thereby making themselves more justifiable. These simply admitted they fell short and that Jesus did for them what they could not do for themselves. What then if there is no change? What if we like sheep keep going astray? Isaiah 53:6 All {not some} we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." It is characteristic of every human (Except Jesus the God Man) that we all sin & every one of us keeps going astray. It is characteristic of Jesus Christ that he keeps on bearing the iniquity of us all from those that are relatively good to those of us who do every form of evil. God's standard Is Jesus & He alone is PERFECT. Our ideas of repentance are relative. Some stop doing this sin and some stop doing that sin some may live a more righteous life than others but we all are in the same boat. "All have sinned and continually fall short of the Glory of God." @t 3%3A23&version=AMP Every second that we live from birth to death if at any point we were to seek eternal life based upon our worst or our best we would all fail in word thought deed motive & the purity of our very human essence. FAIL FAIL FAIL! Thank God our substitute sin bearer never is exhausted nor does the level of eternal grace in Him ever drain off. If we seek to be justified by our works then we cannot be justified by grace. Such seeking is sin in itself. We need to repent of trusting in our repentance & instead trust the one Whom rather kept bearing our sins until every category of it was paid in full. Though we may strive we may never get better at a Christian life than when we first began it. We may even get worse at it. Rom @,25 I pity the person who believes that their increased level of morality has something to do with their acceptance & the ones that fail the morality test are all the reprobate. "Matt 7Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." A successful (and admirable) life full of great works of deliverance is no guarantee nor evidence that any one is saved. I hope to God we all have excellent works to show for our salvation at the end of the day. But I hope to God that not one of us hates a brother in Christ for their lack of moral values & failing lifestyle. I for example never can get any better at my typing skills no matter how much I have practiced it. At times like above I even get WORSE
@@elmerbaez6784 It's natural. Lust: very strong sexual desire. Sexual orientation: a person's identity in relation to the gender or genders to which they are sexually attracted; the fact of being heterosexual, homosexual, etc. homosexual: of, relating to, or characterized by a sexual or romantic attraction to people of one's same-sex
It was disappointing to hear Brandan continuously blame the patriarchy and straight white men for this. I hate to burst his bubble but blaming them for everything is heterophobic, racist, and sexist. I was however pleased to see he at least attempted to talk about scripture which most people on side A seem to avoid like the plague. That said David does a far better job of not only drawing out the meaning of the text, but also pulling the whole tapestry of scripture together to form a cohesive and clear point. Sadly this debate did seem to lack a bit of something and was a little bit meh. At least I got to win liberal bingo listening to Brandan though.
@@belluh9765 an unnatural or unreasonable fear or hatred doesn't need to come from the grouo in question having been oppressed in any sense. Spiders have never been oppressed but you can still be aracnaphobic. I know of a guy at my sisters uni who was kicked out of the LGBT for being heterophobic, so clearly not everyone would agree with your assessment, even within the LGBT groups.
Euan Thompson all that i’m saying is that there is a difference between punching down and punching up. lgbt people are reacting negatively to straight people because it has been the other way around for centuries. Although I do not condone being rude like this, it is the same behavior as a black men and women retaliating to white men and women.
@@belluh9765 I am glad to hear that you don't condone punching from either side. Punching is punching regardless of height. I do find it interesting that you say it has been the other way around for centuries. Perhaps. But would that justify a role reversal? Or knowing the pain some in power have caused would mercy not be better than revenge? Particularly as many in this day and age have not suffered through any persecution in the west and are at great risk of being what they despise.
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine. I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for. Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated. To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you, we homosexuals are not offensive to what is right. Being YOU, at your essence, is always right. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it! In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned. As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws: It's an abomination to eat shellfish. It's an abomination to cut your hair. It's an abomination to be tattooed. It's an abomination to eat pork. It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates. I could go on, but you get the picture. I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites. Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that. Paul is the one who says: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy. To the pure, all things are pure. And Jesus himself said: It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him. Be pure of heart, and be yourself! Love and Light!
I'm another video Brandan said Jesus was racist and that the woman rebuked Him and He repented of His racism from this... Am I to believe this person is indwelled with The Spirit that thinks that The Word of God in flesh is fallible, racist, and mutable by human opinion?
Repent as repent or as " expand your mind"? Can't remember what he said... Still, Jesus can't sin and be the lam at the same time. Or did God say to the people: oh, by the way, it's ok if you don't have a perfect animal to sacrifice, it's ok if you use an old female 🐑 as well".... No, it had to be perfect. Brandan is strange...
Excellent discussion and well thougth through. We need to listen carefully to each other as Christians I can understand Brandan and I can understand the views of David. We need wisdom and a humble attitude. Thanks for this interesting discussion. Blessings to you all from a Dutch Roman Catholic Christian.
Frank 0603 Well one of the reasons I find that hard to believe is because there is no belief system or set of moral principles in the world that does a better job of ensuring the survival and thriving humanity than the bible. Now of course if you dont care about that very much, then I cant really help you there.
God is the same yesterday, today & forever!!! Brandan should try deliverance & denying the flesh, instead of twisting scripture to fit his sinful desires! We are getting closer to the end, so, of course, churches are getting more LGBT affirming!
Most of them are so busy casting the stone of subjective comparison, they wont even notice your concern. How easy it is to throw these stones when someone else is on the recieving end of its cruelty.
Although I think the Bible is clear on homosexuality, I find it interesting watching honest, sincere people deal with how they feel God "created" them versus what he's said (in the Bible) what he thinks of them. It reminds me of the discussion of how God doesn't condemn slavery in the Bible. Most people feel that enslaving another person is wrong but can't understand why God doesn't say that specifically in the Bible. You have to "end up" with the conclusion that God agrees with you on these issues through "context" regardless of the direct biblical text. Or, deny what you and most of us feel/know to be true and accept God means what's in the Bible. How unfair is it to make a person gay and then turn around and declare how you disapprove.? I appreciate and admire their bravery in this conversation and in life. Awesome people and conversation!
@Tony DC, exodus 21:20 " Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." This was wrong back then, now and in the future. Thou shall not own another human is the truth.
People love to get hung up on slavery. Slave or free; owner or owned - they both have the same Creator and the same Redeemer. The devil has so many bound up in the temporal that they spend their life missing the eternal. In God's economy, the only thing that has ultimate value is Christ's redemptive work on the cross; all the rest is deceptive distraction. Remember, this life is but a vapor; it's over within a blink of the eye. Where we're going to spend eternity should be priority number one, but folks want to debate the value of the artwork on the Titanic (slavery, sexuality, etc.), while ignoring (or simply not understanding) the fact that the ship is sinking. Better to be a slave and know Jesus as your Savior than to possess all the world's riches and lose your soul for eternity. The ship is sinking ... get in the Lifeboat. P.S. Jesus is the Lifeboat.
@Tony DC, here's what you don't understand: If God would have directly condemned ownership of another human, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No context, no story, no extra reading required. It's just that simple. If he's able to condemn other thing (commandments) then why skip slavery? My people have suffered from slavery while God expected us to use context clues to determine he's against it???
The young guy has such an educated dangerous mind. It’s obvious they will make all in their power to promote such youth with these implanted ideology of lies. twisting scriptures and blaming Historical Christian today’s caos is the game
The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does and to go a step further and claim that it condemns such relationships.
Brandan is a pastor in a progressive church - a church that contradicts Jesus and the Gospel. It’s what Alisa Childers targets. He also released a TikTok video claiming Jesus as biased. He opposes Christianity. I applaud how David presented himself and his belief in God’s Word. He believes in the power of the Scripture. Amen to that!
Sexuality exists alongside myriad other human needs and tendencies. One can easily see how trauma, existential terror, desire for power, vanity could all coalesce around the natural desire for sexual pleasure and allow that set of overlapping phenomena to create the kind of harm, and cycles of harm that we might call sin. Easily morally categorizing our human activities, either to exonerate them or condemn them, seems the greatest error of all. Christ said it is what overflows from our heart, which is intangible motive, that is in turn shaped by the experience of being affected by the motives of others, that makes one unclean, not what we take into our mouth. Mostly this is seen as a metaphor, but when sexuality is discussed it becomes quite literal. I don't think its meaningful, in this way, to categorize homosexuality or heterosexuality in terms of their moral acceptability or unacceptability. Too many other dynamics are found under the umbrella of those terms to have them be helpful moral heuristics.
I don't there there is a more clear cut physical earthly living metaphor for God and our relationship with Him than the gift that God has given in Sexuality.. ..as such there are not many more clear deviations from God's will than abusing this gift through our own personal desires. Sex between a Man and a Woman are living metaphors for the God and Human relationship.
I think Paul, in his letters, makes it clear where homosexuality stands in the church, that it is not to be practiced. The question I have, if God does not like homosexuality and doesn't want you to do it, what on earth otherwise should he say in his book, to tell you not to? Surely it is clear
Given that over 1000 species of animal exhibit homosexual behaviour, surely it is clear that God if he exists doesn't have a problem with it just because the authors of the bible claiming to be divinely inspired did.
The Bible never mentions commenting on TH-cam videos. From this, can we correctly assume that such an action is immoral? Of course not, that’s absurd. The Bible also does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does mention them and even worse to go a step further and claim that it condemns such relationships.
@@M.H.I.A.F.T. well, some animals, like sweetwater angelfish eat their own eggs/offspring. Would we eat our baby's? Nearly all of us would not. Can you maybe provide a study? I only heard about penguins and now I'm interested about the others.
yea, that's a big if. But hey, you have a book, seemingly at odds with the real world, the author/s of which you don't know, originals of which don't exist and you rely on an anglicised version of ancient languages you probably haven't the faintest understanding of much less the ability to read
No body is called to be 'fully them selves', bacause as flawed human beings that would also mean surrendering to our sinful nature(which Brandan is actually implying). And if we think about it truly, then no one has that kind of right anywhere. Parents restric their childrens life to protect them, spouses restrict one another to protect their marriage, police restricts citizens from unlawful behaviour and so forth. It's just an exuse to allow ourselves to satisfy our sinful desires. I really appreciate David for what he is doing. God bless him!!!
According to Scripture the working of the Holy Spirit in a Christians life will bring about the mind of Christ and remake the person from within. We all need to allow/expect the Spirit to bring us into the life He has for us.. David has a very mature Christian outlook, and our society is over sexed and immature.
One can agree with the over-sexualization of media and pop culture while still supporting LGBT relationships. The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does.
@@theroguejester6412 I would caution you, and everyone, to not use the Bible as a reference book. In other words, don’t take a subject of interest and try to look it up. The Bible is written to tell who God is and about His relationship/plan for His people . As the story unfolds a framework of understanding is presented and applicable to our lives, detailed information that we want may are may not be present. Pay attention to what IS there, not what you want to see.
D CB Please read books by Jason Lee, Kathy Baldock, James Brownson, Dr. John Corvino, Colby Martin, Fr. Jim Martin, Fr. Daniel Helminiak, Susan Cottrell, Fr. James Alison, and Matthew Vines.
@@theroguejester6412 Thx for the suggestion, but I have my own studies that absorb me currently. Read the Bible for what it is, not what you want it to be.
It’s troubling when Brandon speaks about how the spirit is showing is new truth, and how we should learn from it to get new insight from God. Christ didn’t say that the spirit will guide you with new info. In fact, he says to test the spirit, to know whether it’s from God or not. Because he doesn’t just change his stance on morality or creation. It’s the same. Sin is sin.
I agree completely that the spirit does not show new truth, only truth that aligns with God. I think sin can be a gray area however. Could it be that some people are not aware of something being a sin. Or some people are not able to escape a sin right away? Thank God for the grace of Jesus, I surely need it daily.
Sin is a religious concept, it doesn't actually exist unless you buy into the religious bullshit, free yourself and understand that sin is an imaginary disease religion has convinced you of so that religion can provide you the cure. It has essentially cut you in order to sell you a band-aid
I don't buy that it cuts you in order to sell you a band aid. So much of what is regarded as sin, is also regarded by the world as bad. Even atheists recognise that there are many bad things around.
Sarah Pfeuffer of course, sin is just going contrary to God. Everyone sins very day, even without realizing it. But there is recognizable sin. Most if not all come down to idolatry. Even sexual immorality. And most people know if they are committing idolatry. The issue is that if you call what is clearly sin not sin, then you’re rebelling against God. If you try and change the character of God and what he says is Good, then you’re worshipping a false God
The natural law argument, or the idea that God's male/female design and intent implies a prohibition on homosexuality is so weak to me. God also intended for families to be biologically related, yet we don't condemn people for adopting children in a fallen world, or refuse to let them be called "parents."
Poor reasoning sir. There are examples of people being adopted and accepted into Israel throughout the bible. God's will is that all will come to the truth and accept it for salvation but he also gives us free will.
Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow him. What authority do you have to change the church. Modern society is trying to throw away the cross and burn it. Your sin us what Jesus Christ wants to take away. To do that you have to detach from this world and all its lusts.
@@micahtandy4222 that includes every human being. We are made in His image. We all have our own cross to bear. For some its same sex attraction. For some its gambling or drugs. The problem today is that people want to change their vice and make it a virtue. Overcoming same sex attraction is a virtue.
@@DekoDeroman my point is you expect homosexual people to give up their sexuality and dont have the same standards for heterosexuals. This would make me question Gods omniscience. Also in my opinion, one homosexual man or woman is infinitely bigger than God, not Jesus, God.
The same church that condemned Galileo for his scientific discoveries? The Church that invented limbo, sold indulgences and tickets to heaven, instituted 400 years of slavery... etc?
As a Catholic (who am queer, btw), it's almost as if Brandan is called to marriage (with a man), while David clearly has the charism of celibacy, as is the case with Catholic religious -- nuns, brothers, priests -- for centuries. Two different Christian callings, perhaps. Whether "Side A" or "Side B", we have been afforded the delight and priviledge to follow Christ. +He is Risen+. With Peter, we live this truth : "You are the Christ. You are the Son of God." Same-sex partnership is holy and more precious that we can imagine, and we as the Body of Christ have a need to acknowledge and to give thanks for and bless the calling of two men or two women entering into sacred partnership together in Christ. Paranthetically, despite that i identify with Brandon, i am suspect of his talk of "deconstruction" of the "orthodox" Christian faith from "colonial, oppressive" influences. Bullocks, of course.
Just read the comments senction and see why many LGBT and their allies AVOID Christianity, regardless of the fact there's some like Brandon that are trying to find a way through this mess. Some of us are simply tired of hanging out with toxic people who are more interested in being self-righteous than loving or gracious.
His argument about being charismatic and not being open to new truths because the canon is closed, is the same reason why charismatics are given a hard time. Then he says there is a role for Orthodoxy but there really isn’t. God can still speak today, and if he speaks something we need to test it against scripture. And the reason we need to distinguish canonization of the text, and the inspiration of scripture, is because our hearts are prone to desire evil or fulfill selfish wants.
Brandan seems more interested in changing the Word/interpreting the Spirit through modern, liberal wokeness than allowing God to be an actual authority in his life. Brandan's wisdom is greater than God's. So why not throw out the whole thing and make up your own religion?
@@rydrakeesperanza5370 Context absolutely matters! Dining with Egyptians was once considered 'toevah' (abomination/taboo) according to the Old Testament, but no Jewish or Christian person abides by this rule today. It is not "inherently immoral" to dine with an Egyptian person, although a shallow reading of the text might lead some to that conclusion. Similarly, it is not "inherently immoral" for two people of the same-sex to fall in love, although again, a shallow reading of the text could lead biased and ignorant readers that way.
oh, I thought that's exactly what YOU did , Luke, make up your own religion, in effect: you have (insane) beliefs, and more disturbingly - teachings, that cannot be traced to your ostensible Lord
David, I say this with all the love in the world as someone who struggles in the same way, drop the label of gay, a temptation pattern is not an identity. So proud of you for submitting to the Scriptures and teaching others to do the same.
Yeah, that's the only thing that really bothered me. We are called to find our identity in Christ. We are Christians. We are children of God. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are no longer bound by our sins. So then, to identify ourselves by what we are convicted of as sin seems problematic.
@@MCNinjaDJ Being gay isn’t a sin. It’s just an attraction. Should I not call myself a man, a brother, a student, or a Star Wars fan? These things describe me. Having descriptors isn’t the same as putting our identities in them. They can be where we put our identity. But saying “I’m gay” isn’t the same thing as putting ones identity in that, anymore than me saying “I’m a brother” is putting my identity in that
I see alot of comments that are bashing brandan on his views and go ahead and have your disagreements, however dont use david as a symbol to justify your abuse by. This was a healthy convo between disagreeing men. I agree with David waay more than Brandan but I am happy this convo was had.
Concerning same sex relationships, sex that it is forbiden ,is in the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was from God. Both Old and New Testaments are in agreement concern this. I believe you know this Brandon but are trying to change God's law. May this not be allowed in the body of Christ. Best to start an GAY church. You are trying to reform God.
@Pastor Brandan Robertson | Lead Pastor hey man i applaud you staying up and engaging with criticism. I respect you even though I have a different view. You engaged in a wonderful conversation here. God bless, my brother.
Are you sure you didn’t do this yourself? The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does and to go a step further and claim that it condemns such relationships.
I think this Dave fella hit the nail on the head...whether we're hedro or homo, we as humans seam to think that we have this "right" to fulfill our sexual lust...we lie to ourselves and say it's love...instead it can be a sacrifice we make by crucifying our flesh for our Saviour who did so much more for us...brilliance
This guy recently released a Tik Tok saying Jesus was racist, seriously
Yep and he said Jesus repented of this sin. If Jesus Christ had sin then we are all “men most miserable “ because He is our hope that He did always the things that please the Father as the spotless sinless Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world
He didn't say that, he said he made a racial slur and then apologised for doing so. That is there, right there in the bible.
@@joshuataylor3550 he said that Jesus repented, you repent from sin. If Jesus had to repent then everything Jesus did was in vain! Sad to see how far he is from Jesus yet he is a so-called pastor.
@@joshuataylor3550 He apologised? Did Jesus make a mistake? Oh shit we're fucked up now.
I take issue with that along with a lot of other stuff he says but that's not relevant to what he's saying here.
With a debate as important as this one, we need to stay on topic and avoid trying to take down someone's argument on the basis of them being wrong on a different issue.
I like how Brandan says David's experience is in the minority as if it's a point in his favor. Yes, a minority of people choose to give up their desires to follow Christ.
Amen
Amen
Isn't that what following Christ is all about; denying yourself. This is not limited to sexuality alone but loads of other areas.
I don't agree I'm afraid nearly every christian I have met had to give up some form of desire and not necessarily a sexual one. Or over time God has changed and shaped them differently. It's impossible to come to Christ and not change if you are truly a believer it will happen. As the bible states clearly you are transformed by the renewing of your mind. For me this isn't a debate so much as there is nothing in bible that backs up a gay lifestyle. the only relationship norm that is promoted is a man and a women married which is also the only place for sexual relations. The bible also cuts across straight people having sex outside of marriage (fornication) which nobody debates. The bible is clear no liar no fornicator nobody who commits adultery and no homosexual will see the face of God.
Amen
I've been a homosexual my whole life. I'm willing to give that up and follow Christ. Doesn't matter if I spend the remainder of my life alone, my love for Christ is worth every step of celibacy.
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine.
I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for.
Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated.
To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you, we homosexuals are not offensive to what is right. Being YOU, at your essence, is always right. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it!
In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned.
As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws:
It's an abomination to eat shellfish.
It's an abomination to cut your hair.
It's an abomination to be tattooed.
It's an abomination to eat pork.
It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates.
I could go on, but you get the picture.
I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites.
Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that.
Paul is the one who says:
The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy.
To the pure, all things are pure.
And Jesus himself said:
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him.
Be pure of heart, and be yourself!
Love and Light!
Amen!! Im heterosexual and and staying celibate the remainder of my life.
@@daodejing81 You're kidding me right?
@geoffreywright9856
Christianity is a cult, and no I'm not kidding.
DON'T EVER SAY WE ARE JUST FINE. The love of HEAVENLY FATHER is magnificent, amazing, and can't be compared with anything else. NOBODY can take away the immense joy that brings loving GOD. GOD'S love is so powerful that you become so mighty and able to do what ever you ask GOD to. Yes I am still gay but I have peace and calm, I choose to stay celibate because I can with the strength that GOD gives me. But that is not important anymore, I don't have that urge to go find someone I am just so calm and I feel that my body is secondary to my spirit and soul. My body doesn't dictate what to do. I can't explain it, but I ask you all my brothers and sisters to read the scriptures ask GOD for guidance; it doesn't happen fast but it happens, GOD will tell you that you are just fine and MOST IMPORTANT THAT HE LOVES YOU VERY MUCH, and he has always loved you since the beginning and for all eternity. Staying celibate is big t on the eyes of Heavenly Father, and GOD will give you so many prices. I know most of you are great people have great hearts. Thus is the only thing that you have yo do. BE OBEDIENT.
I love how civil this is, regardless of disagreement I think this is the way we are meant to communicate with each other as followers of Christ and how we should be seen by those who aren't. This is the first video from this channel that I've seen and it's so refreshing to see a respectful conversation about such a touchy subject.
I agree completely they honoured each other with great respect. They were able to disagree well.
I agree!
Jesus was not civil with those who twisted scripture for their own personal gain. As a matter of fact thise were the ones Jesus was the harshest on callong them brood of vipers and hypocrites.
Jesus said I come not to bring peace but a sword. When you start to tell the truth people don't like it. Because they like Darkness more than light.
@@TheCAP25 There's a pretty gargantuan difference between people who have been historically marginalized and hated by "Christians" seeking acceptance and Clergymen exploiting churchgoers for money. I am not inclined to believe He would be pleased with so called Christians today driving LGBT teens to suicide with their over the top hatred and exclusion.
My view is Side A is attempting to configure Holy Scriptures to a modern day or secular view to embrace a fundamental human desire and nature. Side B is struggling to conform to a Scriptural view and willingness to find freedom whilst inhabiting a fallen nature. In short, Side B is conforming to God’s Word. I’m going to follow God’s Word even if it is uncomfortable.
Hey willy
If we are true children of GOD!!!!! baptised walking in right relationship we no longer have that sinful nature!, Being crucified with JESUS!!!!! and raised up as new creations the old has gone and the new has come dead to sin not dead in sin like the world! Paul speaks about this when he says I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I do want to do, cos that struggle with the flesh/sin remains but at our core we don't want it anymore, as the word states the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak! I hope this helps or at least gives ya some stuff to take to THEM!!!! peace!
haha, you follow "God's" word and leave the rest of us to reality
As a celibate (though not romantically celibate) bisexual person, I have to disagree. I don’t think chopping side a up to wanting to twist scripture around in the name of comfort is fair, and does an awfuk injustice to the amount of research, time & care is put into this topic. I’d argue side a christians care DEEPLY about scripture, so much that often they have gone kneesdeep into the rather messy history & context of the Bible. Are we also just conforming to society when we don’t keep the sabbath, when men have long hair, pray in public or tell people when we are fasting? I’m curious why we allow room for context and interpretation in those subjects, but never subjects relating to sexuality. Ultimately, we are ALL on this earth trying to seek the heart of God, & God knows we cannot have the answers to everything. It is by faith we are saved, not by works.
@@camerong5513 if you're gonna make such a comment, why are you even here?
@@Man.of.Tomorrow oh maybe what I said went right over ya head. All good...
David truly appreciates God's word while Brandan truly appreciates his own culture and desires. These views lead David to be obedient through celibacy and lead Brandan to refer to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior as a racist.
Absolutely. The proof is in the pudding.
@@cwradio4571 ooh interesting and thought provoking reply.
Our identity should be “children of God”....period! That’s the only identity that matters!
Brandan should not be leading a church. His teachings are way, way off.
There’s no good reason to deny the desire for a sexual relationship with a consenting adult, though, and no good reason to make gay people feel like they’re doing something wrong for simply having that desire. Christianity’s backasswards, narrow, and puritanical views of sex and sexuality have caused demonstrable harm to countless people who have attempted to live within its cell walls, and it’s one of the main reasons people such as myself cannot possibly take your religion seriously.
“There is a way that seems right unto a man but it ends in death” proverbs 14:12
The Bible speaks plainly about this issue
Anyone who says the Bible speaks "plainly" about anything doesn't understand hermeneutics 101.
@@tres-adames do the hermeneutic, it will be the same conclusion.
@@tres-adames My old pastor liked to use the phrase "hermeneutical gymnastics." That is to say... there are, in fact, very plain meanings to much of scripture and people often use hermeneutics as no more than a tool to ignore them.
@Tha Night have you read Alisa Childers' book Another Gospel? Very good on the topic of progressive "Christianity" in general.
@@tres-adames the Bible will be very confusing if you are not truly born again
Brandan reads a lot of current culture war into the Biblical text. This is not the way we ought to read. The Bible isn't about dismantling the PaTriArChY. Sheesh.
blah blah blah
Brandan seems like a very thoughtful person, who has interpreted scripture to fit his struggle. David seems like a Spiritual warrior, who has interpreted the scripture, for what he sees, apart from his struggle. I appreciated the conversation.
The word sounds like "fargut"
@Blackjoy Official aww. Did I hurt your feelings? Shut up
@@cartooncartel6493 Calling anyone that word is called slander. Slander is sin.
@@cartooncartel6493 As much as I disagree with the man, calling him that is classless and shameful.
Counter his arguments, fact check him, but don’t stoop low.
@@stefannydvorak7919 his depraved sexual stance is his point. He's gay. No reason not to call him out on the big fat gay he is.
This channel has the best Christian debates on the entire internet. Thanks for sharing. God bless!
Hands down
Marlon from The Gospel Truth channel has good debates too. Non trinitarians, Calvinists, Armenians, atheists, the whole lot.
Anchor north id REALLY good. Check them out.
Please read the Bible instead of getting false information from clear false teachers
@Tha Night - I shall quote from the Bible, regarding slavery:
Leviticus 25:44-46
“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.”
Exodus 21:20-21
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.”
Exodus 21:26-27
“When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.”
As a Christian, I'm just glad we are having sophisticated and compassionate discussions about this.
Luke NZ : lol, neither of those adjectives apply, if you only understood how woefully inadequate and arrogant the christian stance is to begin with..compared to plain conversation about morality without this religion forcefully injected.
it's a rude awakening for some to realize that christian (and other ideology based) morality is quite a low bar. I understand how the brainwashing makes you think otherwise but, it just aint so.
Chris The big “mic drop” post that actually says nothing. HOW is the Christian stance “woefully ignorant and arrogant?” “Plain” conversation? Non-ideological? Huh? Your positing your ideological position in your post, cutting off the branch you try to sit on. You said nothing of substance related to anything objective, other than what internet “Chris” thinks. Trying saying less and substantiate SOME position other than your opinion- which I’m assuming you’ve given little real attention, other than what you’ve been told to.
oh , but did you bring your bag of stones ?
we're gonna stone him to death , after this debate .... you in ?
or do YOU ... have morals better then your god ? from who we SHOULD STONE THE GUY TO DEATH and send get him a direct line to hell...
YakAngler : try not to surface read. i responded briefly, because the comment is brief and it was what i was addressing.
to re-phrase it: the commenter thinks we're having a nice and civil debate about an unsettled matter. reality is that the christian view on the topic is rooted in old myths and thus the debate is worlds apart. one view rooted in our best understanding of reality and the other rooted in incoherent myths.
you can have a more productive debate about it by having a plain conversation that doesnt invoke mythical gods.
this is like a climate scientist talking to a caveman and pretending it's a good debate.
all your additional gaslighting about branches etc. is ironically how you purport to discredit me, without addressing directly anything i said, apart from meaningless quote marks.
who is talking about stoning? must be some random bible verse invocation.
reality is that whilst christians with means to do so, subvert public policy and discourse, little progress is allowed. because christians have morality backwards, but claim superiority and primacy and ownership of humanity in parts of the world.
abortion, gay marriage, AIDS, or any other topic that comes up again and again, is always a matter of pathological mythicism for believers. for non-believers, these issues are settled long ago, and we're not changing our minds because of additional religious discourse based in a broken morality of mythical roots.
my god? what is this or other god but a fable of the ones in power?
@@Chris-op7yt
So what are your beliefs regarding the origin of the universe since you reject the idea of a creator as unfounded? (won't answer the question) And if the universe wasn't created what do you ground logic and morality in?
Lets be honest, our current sexuality is perverse. To seek justification in the Bible for our pervertedness is absurd. Side B guy is commendable in dealing with it the most Godly way that he can. The Church absolutely accepts all sinners, but we cannot SAY that we want the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, and for it to change ALL our sinful nature... just not THAT. We must accept that the tree will be pruned, and the pruning will hurt. Being a Christian is not supposed to be easy, because the easy way and the right way and almost never the same.
@Michael Van Uytven well said. Nothing more ridiculous than seeing an obvious homosexual, David Bennett, here, encourage abstinence. Didn't help the guy's cause that he's overweight & looked miserable
@Michael Van Uytven And even suicide later on. My husband was gay & his father knew it but coerced him into getting married anyway. A few years after we'd been married, my husband came to find out that his dad was gay as well. My husband committed suicide @ 63, not just for that, but for other reasons having to do with his father. One thing that's interesting is that his father is extremely homophobic. But yet he's secretly gay. wth? His father is a member of the 'Assembly of God' - very bizarre organization.
@Michael Van Uytven Becket Cook, Rosaria Butterfield, Jackie Hill Perry, etc gave up homosexuality when they became Christians. They're doing well.
@Michael Van Uytven Yes, following Jesus involves mental trepidation, among many other horrible things. Jesus literally said multiple times that following Him will be difficult (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:57-58). Since the dawn of Christianity, the best of Christians does not live an easy life. All of Jesus' apostles were persecuted, beaten, some stoned to death, some burned, etc.
Jesus also said to gouge out our eye and cut our hand if it leads us to sin (Matthew 5:29-30). I think the message is clear, that to follow His teachings--and therefore to avoid sin--requires sacrifice. In this case, the sacrifice is not being able to satisfy one's sexual desires as well as emotional needs from a spouse.
@michaelvanuytven3072 "Doesn't seem like this teaching gives any sort of rest to LGBTQ folk," Sure, if you believe that 'rest' is unrestricted anarchy and indulgence...Either CS Lewis or Chesterton said, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried,"...it is not that they have gone to Christ and have found no rest,...it is in a culture like we live in, hypersexualized; narcissistic; consumerism; decadent, that has people rejecting Jesus to affirm their lusts/ proclivities...and this is true for all orientations, including the Transmovement, it is all self affirmation rather than "If any man desires to follow me, he must first deny himself, pick up his cross and follow me."
2 Timothy 4:3, NLT: "For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear."
Amen !
This is the same verse i thought of. i cringe when they call themselves Christians. which is "christ" like. Sorry being gay is not christ like whatsoever. It is just a personal choice people make to do what they want. which of course is there right to do. BUT to teach that is a stumbling block to people truly seeking the lord.
yea, that's a good description of anti-LGBT "Christians"
Galatians 3:3 "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"
1 Corinthians 7:6-9 "I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and widows I say this: It is good for them to remain unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
1 Timothy 4:1-4 "Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. They will prohibit marriage... that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth."
This is the first time in over 2000 years that the Church has mandated lifelong celibacy unto believers, with false teachings that overlook the fact celibacy is a gift from God, as preached by every powerful voice since Jesus walked the earth; this deviation from sound and wholesome doctrine has lead to deep pychological hurts underneath the scars of conversion "therapy" and the mass suicide of Christian youth. The fruit is self-evident. The unloving manner in which the wider church community has espoused a fearful and forced Side B solution has lead to death and severe harm & loneliness in survivors (God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone"). Faced with the abject failure of their "pray away the gay" ministries, the Church now claims that Christians who quit the "gay lifestyle" are "ex-gay" - which totally deviates from the very definition of both "gay" and "homosexual" as stated in all dictionaries (Oxford, Cambridge, Merriam-Webster, Google) - and this intellectual dishonesty makes no sense whatsoever when considering a gay virgin who never once before engaged in premarital sex out of devotion to God; how can someone chaste like myself claim to be "ex-gay" without self-deception? The only people speaking any semblance of truth in this debate are gay Christians - meanwhile the wider church community insist on invalidating our existence and ignoring parts of scripture that deviate from the solution they offer - to walk in the fear of hell, which is antithetical from walking in faith and the Spirit.
Romans 14:23 "Everything that does not come from faith is sin."
1 John 4:17-18 "In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love."
1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
The Spirit taught me, and His truth set me free 7 years ago, yet I have remained single all these years. I know that when the time is right, He will make it happen. My ears are not itching to hear this truth so I can go sin. I am devout to my King.
I understand the call to bear our cross, but I also understand that we are called to walk in the Spirit, not the power of our own flesh, nor the reliance of our own understanding. So when love comes my way, I choose to believe Jesus when He said His burden is light and His yoke is easy - I choose to believe in the central message of the Gospel - Faith in Christ to accredit us with His own perfect righteousness, Hope in Christ's work of salvation on the cross to atone once and forever my sins; and to Love God and to love my neighbor as myself, which fulfills the Law of Christ and bears fruit of the Spirit. I choose to believe Jesus when he taught that He is the vine and those who remain in Him will bear much fruit, and not face judgment (John 15). As long as I can bear fruit in His power, then it is evidence that He lives in me and I am sealed with the Spirit.
Romans 14:22 "The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves."
Romans 14:4 "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand."
*I believe my King is able to make me stand.*
@@1Lordbuddy great thought
i enjoy this channel so much! you do a fantastic job of selecting people who are open and respectful. Keep up the great work Unbelievable team!!!
The spirit that manifests when Brandon Robertson speaks is of arrogance, pride and Narcissism- which encapsulates a false teacher.
The problem with Brandon is that he doesn’t believe the Bible to be literal or true. His “Christianity” has a political agenda and not a salvation theology. He is in MAJOR error, and that is just sad.
haha, not what I heard. Do please elaborate
true and literal are two different things
Jesus is not literal either when he speaks. Not for nothing he says "grab your swords" to the apostles but chastes them when they grab them to harm the romans when they come to jail him. Because he meant another thing, he speaks in parables
That’s not a problem in my view, it’s a strength
@@nerdykeith It’s not a strength when he is purposely deceiving many people and preaching a false message. There is consequences to blaspheming God. That sucks! I don’t want that to happen, but if Brandon doesn’t repent for it he won’t make it.
Thumbs up for David Bennett. Very impressed for his courage, how the Spirit has moved through him, and I hope he represents a bright example for the rest of us of what it looks like to abide in Christ. Your comments on the necessity of reliance on the Spirit and yet testing that with the Scriptures I think was so important to this conversation.
Are you planning on becoming celibate?
@@tammygibson1556 Are you insinuating that the only logical consistency afforded to me is to become celibate myself if I found David's testimony encouraging?
@@MrBenbenbenbenny yes I am.
@@tammygibson1556 Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute or any justification for saying that? I, a married heterosexual man, cannot find the story of another encouraging because he is willing to deny himself and follow in what he perceives to be obedience to his God? I too struggle with temptations and try to rely on God. Those specific struggles may differ individual to individual but I by no means have to celibate because he is. Nor would David state that either.
@@MrBenbenbenbenny if God is just I would expect the same standard across the board.
He went from Jesus is Lord to Jesus is racist! very telling
I'd imagine both would be true if one was allowed to criticize one's faith. Since it's not, off to hell he goes, I'd presume.
@@timfirst3536 you think that God commanded us to not take His name in vain but calling Him racist is ok?
Let's be honest, this guy is a total sjw. Mike winger took this guy apart and accused him of throwing jesus under the bus to fit his social agenda
@
Be honest.
During that time it would make sense if Jesus was a racist.
@@THE-WAY_THE-TRUTH_THE-LIFE. he was referring to the lost vs the saved. Nothing to do with her race
This is really great. Thank you to all three persons for this deep conversation and the respect you all exhibited for each other.
No!! Brandan Robertson is a heretic!! Hes taking scripture and twisting it to justify his sin!!!!
Yeah, I prefer my despicable lies top be told with polite tones and smiling faces.
Saying your a gay Christian is like saying your a meat eating vegan…
@@MrSturdystratus plenty of gay affirming churches don't agree with you
@@acek.7094 what despicable lies? Do you know what God thinks?
I don't say "Gay Christian" is a legitimate terminology.
A good word from David. Following Jesus is dying to self, that's where true freedom and identity is found.
NO
Fuck you
Amen
The Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in order to join the church. Paul warned them that to do so would be to put themselves back under the law and Jesus would mean nothing to them. The law leads people to Jesus, but Jesus does not lead people back to the law.
We are no longer required to cut off a part of ourselves in order to faithfully follow him. The same idea applies to homosexuality and same sex relationships.
How do heterosexuals die to self?
Every other sentence out of Brandan is something that is completely contradictory with the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, and I'm not talking just about the passages regarding homosexuality. It's astonishing the bumper sticker slogans and ideas he trumpets from the progressive types that are tired and have little to no meaning. I'm terrified that people are being "shepherded" by him.
Beyond that, the real issue here is Brandan defines his own identity (instead of allowing God to) and then reasons that everything must fit into his personal identity and preferences. This is so counter Gospel that it has me at a loss for words.
Willful ignorance... "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth."
Wow. He is attracted to males. And other males are attracted to other males. Therefore he is not alone. Therefore he can formulate relationships with them in a loving way. Therefore he can be happy, he can be married and have the legal status of hetorsexual people. and wow! his sexual emotions can be fulfilled, like mine can in my marriage. Wow! That is crazy!
@@1000whispering
Gay people can get married all they like it doesn't change the fact homosexuality is wrong. Where do you draw the line with that argument? Do you believe people are born gay? Or born Trans?
@@tyronelol doesn't hurt you. Doesn't hurt me. That where I draw the line.
@@1000whispering
Actually it can and has hurt people but that's not the point it effects everyone because it makes up part of each persons belief system/worldview..
"Historically colonized by straight white men".
Those buzz words tell you all you need to know about this person. Oh gosh, please don't.
Good point, some of those colonizers surely were gay
@@Mutantcy1992 🙃
No kidding. It usually takes about one or two sentences to realize what kind of 'Christianity' people embrace. Blind leaders of the blind.
Clearly has no idea of the history of the church fathers... Many who were African.
That made me cringe too
Excellent. I just purchased David’s book. He speaks to my spiritual conviction, as a life long christian and same sex attracted. I’ve tried to embrace Brandan’s views but have frequently struggled with it. David hits the spot. Amen. PTL.
All queer theory aside, I think the elephant in the room of greatest concern is Brandon's way of interpreting scripture.
He now claims there is no hell.. and if by chance there is one, Noone will be there because God would never send anyone to hell. He, unfortunately.. is well beyond a faulty interpretation. He's simply rewriting it as he wishes.
A concern because it challenges your traditional views?
Brandan is interpreting scripture to make the lifestyle he's living ok. And even though he knows what he's doing is wrong and what he's preaching is unbiblical he's still doing it. He has sex out of marriage and says its ok, he tells people Jesus was gay, he says there's no hell, said Jesus was racist and had to repent of his sin. And so much more. If Jesus sinned why even worship or follow him if he wasn't perfect. Makes no sense. And he is preaching this to hundreds of thousands of people online. Leading others to hell with him and his distorted gospel. David literally picked up his cross. Brandan picked up his pride n lusts. And changed the bible to make his sins not sin. We need to pray hard for Brandan. God warned him already with the lightning video and Brandan knew it!! Pray for the sake of his salvation and eternity. He said in a video if he's wrong about hell and how he's living he's going to plead the blood of Jesus.
@bettyricker9781
Homosexuality is NOT the problem. Your homophobia, your bigotry and your hypocrisy are the problem.
@@daodejing81 what do you mean by traditional?
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." David Bennett has found the narrow gate. May God continue to give him the strength to perservere in his journey. His story is very touching.
and Brandan hasn't!?
Nobody is going to hell you dimwit
@@camerong5513 nope..... he reads the Bible and twists it to fit his desire. You should read the Bible and twist your desires to be more Christ like.
Dude, they're both devout Christians.
You don't know what the narrow gate is. It's not Jesus.
Christ clearly embodied in both human beings, I listed to them slowly and backed up the video every time each one spoke multiple times; given I found a beautiful godly words coming out of the structure and argumentation of each one's point. This is a case of clear harsh political clashes from tradition and Gay Christians that belong to a very political union as such is the LGBTQ+; so I found even though there was a clear case for expecting rhetoric with plausible deniability bad faith, it was nothing at all. So much love on these mens's words to express very complex Theological positions, and being able to come out of their way cleanly spoken and giving an impression of a real disposition to understand each others's position on a true in god one; regardless of the political paraphernalia that would be supposed behind. It's an exceptional piece of Love expression true tolerance and acceptance. Added to that each ones's particular story was so absolutely moving. This can be so divisive and I expect all comments to take one side or the other as typical in these times where the political has merged in the Theological; but try and listen to it several time and be open to the love and disposition to not exclude the other in their positions.
Well said David - beautiful, passionate and powerful closing comments. This sounded to me like a discussion between the view of Christ-centred faith vs the philosophy of “accept me”. It was great to see such an amicable conversation. More polite than robust, but compelling views on both sides. To me, there were more grounded and compelling views shared from David’s side.
Well at least it's not a couple of straight guys pontificating on how I should feel.
@@frodericfrankenstein7590 I will never understand why the genetic fallacy persists even when it's the most obviously false fallacy that exists.
@@blanktrigger8863 look up Voddie B, he talks about this “Ethnic Gnosticism”
@@jakeschwartz2514 I've seen that video. I actually personally recognized that connection a month or so before I found that video and was shocked that somebody else noticed it. I legit haven't seen anybody else notice it.
haha, what's Christ got to do with it!?
Bennett nails it: we need to die to ourselves and live for Christ.
Don't just die, but rise, be born again, see. Those who see do not need the Bible. Those who see need no Savior.
“I just love Jesus Christ.”
David, it is so obvious that you do.
and Brandan doesn't?
WHO WON? WHO'S NEXT? YOU DECIDE!
😂😂😂best comment
ERG ending
I appreciate how David used scripture with everything he stated. I felt like Brandom mainly focused on the wrongs religious people in the church have done to the LGBTQIA community.
If that's what you heard, we did not listen to the same discussion. They both displayed commited study of scripture and both held criticism for recent historical treatment of queer people by/in the church
David, your perspective is simply beautiful and so edifying. This is THE perspective that has been missing in the church. Thank you for articulating your stance so beautifully. May God continue to bless you and continue to be the sole source in providing your a life that is truly flourishing.
how do you know what God's perspective is on the matter? Oh yea - you don't
This perspective has not been missing, it's not as mainstream as the other two, but is definitely as old as the other two.
It's pretty sad, he fell for and internalised homophobia.
Brandon says the word “broad” a LOT.
““Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.”
Matthew 7:13 NASB2020
Hearing Brandan's story really opens up an understanding of why he has apostatized. There still is time to repent, and perhaps God has placed him in front of David. This is why I have an immense amount of respect for David. He understands the inerrancy of God's word through any culture.
what!? You come here with NOTHING but "Godly" hate speech!
@Michael Van Uytven You are confusing a lot of things in your comment. First, there is no such thing as a latin septuagint (the first latin translation was called vulgata) - the septuagint was the greek translation of the hebrew Old Testament, written around 70bc if I remember correctly. We have Hebrew manuscripts that are older than that, and modern bibles use the best available resources, therefore they aren‘t based on the septuagint. The New Testament was written in greek, and we have manuscripts that go as early as the early second century. There are scholars that always incorporate newly found manuscripts and put all of it together into a compiled version. The New Testament translations use that as a basis. The translators of the original King James Bible had less evidence at their hands and there are differences (but even they translated from hebrew and greek, not from latin as far as I know), but even the few notable ones don‘t change the message of the bible
As a lesbian I can say it’s not that easy because I am attracted to women naturally and I don’t know what to do because when I think about my future life it’s hard to imagine how I can live on my own
@@giraffewhiskers2045 Hey there! that does sounds like a tough spot. I am a straight man and I will soon be living alone away from family and friends. But one thing I know for certain is that God will be with me. psalm 62 is a good reminder of this. King David was in the desert alone, being hunted by enemies, probably hungry and cold yet he cried out to the Lord who was there. My plan for when I begin living alone is immediately finding a church community to get plugged into. Maybe asking about small groups and events. This is not an immediately gratifying process I would imagine, but I will stay the course and continue to pray that God would sent someone in my life to comfort me and mitigate against loneliness. If you genuinely make that your prayer, I have no doubt God will surround you with brothers and sisters in faith.
@@TS-ee7jx hey thanks man but I just realized today that I am actually bi and I really like my friend who I can’t get over and he doesn’t believe in organized religion and he sees Christianity as that
This is absolutely the kind of discussion we as Christians need to have more of! This channel provides so many great, civil and respectful discussions about complex issues. And to both guests, thank you for proving that people who differ can truly have a fruitful and kind conversation.
There was a marked lack of sound, biblical thinking.
Martin Ploughboy really? How so?
@@lifetogether4782 They do not interpret Scripture on the basis of Scripture but make up stories that enable them to explain away God's condemnation of sex outside the marriage of one man to one woman. They pretend that homosexuality today is quite different from the act condemned in Scripture. Their basis is their own beliefs, not Scripture.
I agree with you that Brandon’s view is not what scripture says (I assume that’s what you meant since David is arguing for abstinence). I still believe, though, that respectful and understanding conversation is what can help bridge the gap between the two sides. While I don’t agree with David’s view of biblical sexuality, I have empathy for his struggle with same sex attraction and I think it’s important to hear his perspective. I think you can hear and understand without agreeing with someone, and that’s what I admire about this conversation.I don’t think we will ever convince people like David of our biblical perspective without empathy and understanding for what he has gone through.
@@lifetogether4782 The gap between what God has said & the sinfulness of men cannot be bridged. To convince someone of what God has said requires them to have a change of heart, for a miracle to take place. You cannot convince them.
A "gay Christian" is like saying a vegan carnivore. It's an oxymoron.
Respectfully, the Bible doesn’t refer to being gay as a sin it refers to the act of homosexual sex. Any kind of sex outside the safety of marriage is sinful behavior however being gay and living with homosexuality is never talked about in the Bible. It’s a known fact that being gay isn’t a conscious decision.
@@trystonromero7182 You can't be gay without committing the act and the act is most definitely a sin. If it isn't a conscious decision then tell me why some people who were lesbian or gay become straight?
@@trystonromero7182 we'll see my best friend after watching gay p chose to download the app and meet PPL
Yea.. definately is a choice. I don't choose straight b4 you ask. It's the natural way humans are designed
And no gay will be in a relationship and not Wana get down... So that's not gonna work
Even if they tried. Whoever just looks at another with lust commits adultery in the heart
Marriage is not a out
Hebrews 13:4
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled; but God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers
Soooo
@@trystonromero7182 it is definately a choice
My friend chose to watch p and to download GRI to meet men in hotel rooms sometimes
So let me get this straight, Robertson’s s theory is that : 1) The Genesis account is not literal 2) The Bible is patriarchal, 3) The Holy Spirit is giving new information that undermines what was already inspired, 4) The church is incorrect about the clear biblical teaching of marriage between a man and woman. With all love and respect, that sounds dangerous! I stand on the inspired text of 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21!
The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does and to go a step further and claim that it condemns such relationships.
@@theroguejester6412 What the bible does mention (more specifically the Lord Jesus Christ), “But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh“ Mark 10:6- 8. Christ gives us a clear definition of what marriage is!
The God inspired apostle Paul clearly mentions, “Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in lust for one another, men with men committing that which is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of the error which was due.“ Romans 1: 26. We understand by these two texts (and others) that man was made for woman and woman for man. The anatomical and reproductive structure of humanity also attest to that. Believers who really want to follow the instruction of God Almighty will not look for loopholes and arguments from silence, to argue against that which was clearly stated. 2 Timothy 3:16.
stand on whatever ya want, in "love". Doesn't make ya less ignorant
Isn’t it funny that when some people cannot stand on the merit of substantial consistency they resort to ad hominem and name calling? I stand by my statement the Word of God endures forever (1 Peter 1:25).
@@pedagogyofchrist1395 umm, when ya have a point, and one that's relevant, do give a holler
Great conversation. And Justin you are a wonderful mediator.
Was listening to David over on Speak Life, and I think that he is actually a really great preacher and a really important voice in the church right now. So praise God for him. Listen carefully and he always brings everything back to the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the reliance on the authority of scripture to avoid being deceived by the evil one.
"Twitter always gets me in trouble" the most real phrase I've ever heard in my life
Ahhh the old “context” argument to try make the Bible say what it doesn’t. Gymnastics with the text. Paul meant what he said and said what he meant.
Today's context is "pride" parades, and pride is deadly above all else. I see nothing about today's context that may help support any supposedly "Christian" argument which affirms homosexuality.
Not that I would ever use the context excuse to ignore Scripture; but I am, in addition to agreeing with your comment, proving that the "context" argument is self-defeated.
@@nicholas3354 Amen, Brother, God was very aware his Word would be everlasting and also Psalms 119:130. The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
It's the difference between a God that Loves you and a God that does not. In other words, the way you interpret God/Bible is the way you interpret love. Authoritarianism is not loving. Authoritarianism- the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom; * lack of concern for the wishes or opinions of others.
@@tammygibson1556 Our opinions and wishes are "dogma" given to us by falsehood.
"Whosoever saves his life shall lose it. Whosoever loses his life for my sake shall save it"
- Messiah
Scripture tells us that our dogma is blotted out, nailed to The Cross, and torn apart in Messiah's Crucified Body so that Israel and the nations become one in Israel (not one in the nations).
We are wrong, Messiah is right, we look at God upon The Cross Of God's Love in order to learn what love is. God destroyed our dogma to set us free and make us alive.
Messiah didn't accommodate us by letting us suffer in our own falsehood; He accommodated us by being crucified for us, to save us.
Messiah bless and heal you Tammy.
His blood is precious.
@@nicholas3354 the bible is nothing more than opinions of ancient sheep herders. Their opinions about God are no different than mine, self projection.
I’m so happy to hear such a respectful and sophisticated discussion about this topic.
Both of the interlocutors raised important points that deserve to be considered seriously, although I found the more orthodox argument more self-consistent and convincing.
Some of the discussion was helpful and applicable far beyond LGBT issues, deserving a re-watch.
We must always be wary of relativist activism influencing our theology, setting the standard of reference anywhere other than Christ.
Where Christ is, there the truth lies.
haha: you find some mere commentary "self-consistent" and convincing!? Go back to sleep where ya belong
The Christian Bible is inherently relativist, though.
@@jinglejangle100
Have you read it?
@@sophrapsune
Yes.
It's a sometimes nice anthology of poems, songs, allegories, fables, myths, and admonishments from sources that had been translated and edited and altered over and over again through many centuries--resulting in a fascinating read for those who appreciate all kinds of literature.
@@jinglejangle100 So in what way do you claim it is “inherently relativist”?
THIS OTHER MAN IS NOT CHRISTIAN and it's not because he's gay or because of his understanding of the scripture but bc of the sheer blasphemy he does against God in his tiktok. You know, for a long time I thought that he was just confused and desperate but what I've realised is that, He. Simply. Does. Not. Care. He doesn't care what the Bible says at all, because there's not one thing in the Bible that he agrees with.
Justin, I like that you are kind, but you don't have affirm crazy talk by nodding and saying "sure". Some of the things Brandan was saying was just simply not true. It's ideology, political ideology and nothing to do with truth.
I don't think he was affirming it. I thought it was jiust a stock reply. He is the moderator after all, not the debater. Would be inappropriate of him to just start jumping in and correcting the guy's theology.
@@willsal7806 That could be it too, good point.
@@willsal7806 He could challenge his statements without correcting. After all, it wasn't really a debate, just two people with similar ideas having a discussion. It's a shame that so many recent programmes have been like this with no real testing of claims.
Martin Ploughboy How do you test claims?
It’s called being neutral party. Besides Brandon makes more sense in my view
I’m Side B and I really appreciate conversations like this. :D
What is side B?
are you as miserable-looking as that overweight, repressed David?
@@camerong5513 -__-
@@nargesalove228 I'm curious as well. Bisexual?
So awesome. What an inspiration!!! God bless you in your wholehearted pursuit of Christ 😊
This is really interesting to hear. I really appreciated the side B individuals point of view and the depth of his thinking.
the woke gospel will always be the broke gospel. Love you Brandan, but pride comes before the fall. you just cant claim to follow God at the same time work to desconstruct His Gospel and misleading believers
Those living for this world will not understand that Christ followers are not of this world but are called to be set apart, an example and a beacon of light in the midst of darkness. This is a command not a suggestion and we all need to remind ourselves of this calling.
@@jackjones3657 Amen!!
@Marianne Havisham except, he never contradicted the scriptures, he corrected the religious leaders who had it wrong. Even if he did changed the scriptures, he didnt, but even if he did, he can do that, He is Jesus.
this brother is not only blatantly contradicting the scriptures, he's misleading people, condoning sin and in doing so, claiming that those of us who follow the scriptures are in fact the ones who got it wrong. they can both be wrong but they cant both be right. also in todays world, keeping the scriptures as theyve always been is in fact considered radical. you dont think that being celibate and doing to self and self pleasure is radical?
@@jackjones3657 You can't be seen as light if you are preaching destructive and harmful messages that hurt gay people.
josh G Whatever other law there may be, love does no harm to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10
It would appear that if we take a step back from the harmful legalism that has hurt far too many LGBT throughout history, we can better love each other as Christ truly intended.
He promoted the spirit of the law far more than strict adherence to rules, and even condemned the Pharisees for the latter. The law leads people to Jesus, but Jesus does not lead people back to the law.
I get a person has gay tendencies or dispositions... but doesn’t mean you need to flesh it out.. I have a tendency to want to sleep with every woman I see, but I don’t act it out. It’s called self control and putting to death the desires of the flesh.
Amen, we do not have a choice on our orientation but totally have the choice to either act upon those feelings or crucify the flesh and live above the ways of the fallen world to serve our HOLY FATHER and be close to HIM and have HIS love(AGAPE) in our lives.
Yes, but you get to put flesh to at least one woman you marry, if you wanted. Someone with same sex attraction must fully refrain and are not given the option of marriage.
@@BornOnThursday yes because in that instance it goes outside the perimeters of Gods design. Forget about God for a moment. Science doesn’t even support same sex intercourse. From a purely scientific and biological context, all animals partaking in this practice would die out within a generation. So both science and righteousness do not support same sex intercourse, regardless of one’s tendencies toward it.
@@lazzy2012
So, because it will discontinue a person's family tree, we should say it's bad and sinful, and teach people to hate it?
Wouldn't educating people about this outcome be enough so that they could choose?
@@BornOnThursday do you want science or do you want God (speaking in this case.... but Science supports God when honestly evaluated). So either science, with no regard to emotion or sensuality, simply promotes reproduction, would therefore render same sex intercourse counter productive and against Darwinism, the prophet of evolutionary theory... or God, who made them man and woman with the purpose to be fruitful and multiply. One’s tendencies, desires or dispositions is not an excuse for action.. while it might explain your actions it certainly doesn’t excuse them.. God (not religion) sets the standard of righteousness. For He is truth and all truth flows from Him
I can't believe this stuff is free. What a time to be alive!
I've always wanted to learn about gay marriage and it's relation to Christianity. I'm learning to be a Christian and it breaks my heart that some of the beliefs of Christianity may prevent the happiness of LGBTQ+ people. I think it's so important to get this right because the it affects the lives of so many. Hearing these two fine gentlemen have such an articulate intellectual discussion inspires me form my own beliefs grounded on logic. We need to be able to converse about this more everyday. At the end of the day we love each other.
Amazing talk, very thankful about it. So many points well put out. I’ll keep learning from scriptures, from teachers as the Spirit leads to understand this situation that is so present in the church nowadays. I see David delivering a great case and Andrew and both really pointing to inner church faults that shouldn’t be ignored.
No surprise that Brandon doesn’t understand the Bible, how it came to be or the role of the Holy Spirit. Mike Winger can educate him.
A prime example of a man living for God vs a man living for his own desires.
which is which
Really can’t accept any critique of Scripture from a person who doesn’t believe it is inerrant. Which means he can pick and choose what he wants.
His sexual choice is primary; therefore, everything else must be made to accommodate that primacy.
Hard to buy that the people in the apostles day didn’t understand sexuality. Really? It is arrogant to think….they were not as enlightened as we are today. If anything, they were way deeper thinkers than us with our Twitter, Tic-Tok society.
I'm a former homosexual. I was desperate to find a way to reconcile my faith and my sexual orientation and grapsed for straws just like Brandon. Unfortunately/fortunately, the bible is crystal clear on this issue. Sex is to be between a man and a woman within marriage, period. The thing is God knew what he was talking about because when I was living as a gay man I had slept so many people I couldn't even tell you the number. I had chylamdia twice or three times I can't remember but worse of all I had a God sized hole in my heart. The thing is once I got back into church and I finally found a GOOD church home I started having healthy relationships with my church brothers and finally felt that love from another man that I never had growing up and my sexual desire towards men began to wane until it was finally gone.
Beautiful testimony. God bless your walk with Christ, in Jesus' name.
❤thank you for sharing! I am waiting for my same sex desires to be completely gone too. I'm pushing into God and believing the breakthrough will come. Amen.
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine.
I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for.
Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated.
To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you, we homosexuals are not offensive to what is right. Being YOU, at your essence, is always right. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it!
In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned.
As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws:
It's an abomination to eat shellfish.
It's an abomination to cut your hair.
It's an abomination to be tattooed.
It's an abomination to eat pork.
It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates.
I could go on, but you get the picture.
I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites.
Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that.
Paul is the one who says:
The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy.
To the pure, all things are pure.
And Jesus himself said:
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him.
Be pure of heart, and be yourself!
Love and Light!
...and this, folks is what celibacy truly looks like: elegant eloquence, a calm and collected demeanor, depth, honesty and the peace of Jesus showing effortlessly.
nowadays we run from celibacy as if it were the plague, but look at David speaking truth in his flowery shirt: he's glowing. he's clearly free from the idolatry of marriage and better off than most of us singles stressing about not finding 'the one' by 30.
just sayin' :)
Marriage is idolatry? That’s a new one to me, what do you mean?
@@theroguejester6412 anything can be idolatry if it's a bigger priority than God. I feel a lot of people would rather settle for mediocre marriages out of fear, than settle for the will of God.
Theea M Can marriage never be the will of god for some people?
@@theroguejester6412 that's such a good question! The apostle Paul says that if you want to marry, go ahead and marry, but if you don't, that's a better choice. Not a single mention of marriage not being the will of God for someone who wants to marry is made. I think God, who is loving and just, put into the hearts of celibacy a genuine desire not to marry. So if one doesn't have that genuine desire to stay single, but actually wants to marry... it probably is the will of God for them to get married, if they want to. This bit, I'm 100% sure of.
However, I think that some people, out of fear of being alone, pressure from outside, seeing marriage as the ultimate status (idolatry) or simply because they want to feel like they checked that box etc., marry partners God wouldn't want them to marry. So in that case it's not that it isn't the will of God for them to marry, it's not the will of God for them to marry THAT PERSON. This last bit is just my two cents.
Theea M What if a gay Christian has the genuine desire to marry the person they love and raise children together? Where is the harm in that? Is it a God-given desire? How is that any different from the infertile heterosexual who pursues a physically and emotionally fulfilling relationship?
Just a thought, God commanded for people to go and populate the earth. If homosexualty were an option, most people who exist today wouldn't be here.
Hormones are very powerful, so much thatcthey can change the outer appearance. We see a lot of phytoestrogens in foods and environment, is this causing problems in human sexuality?
The sacrifice same sex attracted people who deny their flesh and become celibate have to make is huge please love them and be their friend to live alone forever is truly hard
then don't expect it of them!
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine.
I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for.
Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated.
To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you, we homosexuals are not offensive to what is right. Being YOU, at your essence, is always right. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it!
In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned.
As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws:
It's an abomination to eat shellfish.
It's an abomination to cut your hair.
It's an abomination to be tattooed.
It's an abomination to eat pork.
It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates.
I could go on, but you get the picture.
I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites.
Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that.
Paul is the one who says:
The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy.
To the pure, all things are pure.
And Jesus himself said:
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him.
Be pure of heart, and be yourself!
Love and Light!
Paul called the act of homosexuality “shameful” and/or “degrading” in the book of Romans... not sure how that could be misunderstood.
hahaha, who gives a rat's....
@@camerong5513 You tell me. You are the one watching the video and replaying.
@@museblock Haha, cogent argument, you should take up paid apologetics...
@@camerong5513 I wasn't making an argument... are you _asking_ for a "cogent argument" for the question "who gives a rat's..."? Seriously, did you honestly think that was an argument? Are you so starved for attention on youtube that you try and create debate in the comments where there is none? Also, its more about having a third grade reading comprehension level than it is about apologetics.
@@museblock Excuse me, while I'm "watching the video and replaying", bozo
You can choose not to have sex with a man just like you can choose not to have sex at all. You can choose to not masterbate. Walking with Jesus is denying your life in exchange for his. The Holy Spirit can give you the ability to overcome your lusts, but you have to want his help. Its not about following everything you want or like or even your hearts desires. Its about Gods will, not our own. The heart is decietful. We have to align our hearts with God's will!
The Creator made everyone different for a reason and loves everyone unconditionally.
Nice to see people who get it
I’m side B but totally miserable. I hate my life sometimes
Hi Mike! I hope and pray that things have become better for you. God bless you!
yea and the side B rep, David, looked totally miserable. I guess that is what happens when you're deceived and repressed for year upon year
I'm side A and sending you hugs ❤
“He WANTS to view scripture differently” that was an important statement. I don’t even know if Brandon caught that. Brandon wants to view the scripture in his way.
Listening to Robertson's 'explanation' is just like all the others - just a rewrite of biblical text and meaning to suit the ideology. Scripture is the 'progressive dismantling of colonizing patriarchy'? What?
I thought he sounded blind when he explained his understanding of Romans 1.
Mental gymnastics yes
Not sure what y'all think of Romans 1, but if you haven't read Douglas Campbell's 1,200 page book on the rhetoric of Romans 1 - 4, you need to. He is, far and away, the preeminent Pauline scholar and has dismantled the idea that Romans 1:18-32 is really what Paul believed. It's a rhetorical argument between Paul and the so-called false brothers that infiltrated Rome and the Galatian churches.
@@MatthewDistefano Can I ask for the book's name? I can't seem to locate a 1200 page version, and I'm quite intrigued.
@@MatthewDistefano If that's the one where he attempts to show that Paul didn't really believe in what he was saying about man lying with man being an abomination etc. I've read material that was far more convincing it was nonsense to read it that way.
In my walk, personal I learned that what ever desires of I have, they are just that desires and I should seek a relationship with God with as much if not more interest in my own personal desires because what He wants matters more, why He created me is more important that satisfying my personal desires. I still fall short and “we’re not perfect” doesn’t mean what I did is ok, but I find joy in knowing He forgives and can still use me for His purpose. It seems today “we” tend to make ourselves happy THEN God and what His will is comes second. Majority doesn’t = right, and right and wrong doesn’t change by era.
Do you think God desires a relationship with his creations? Should he resist his desires, is it okay if he gives in now and then?
God created adam and eve for a reason and others could've been gay Christians but non weren't for thousands of years coincidence? I believe there's a reason God made us straight
@@Nitesam
Well, maybe if everyone wasn't fucking family in the Bible, this wouldn't have happened /s
Any gospel that does not confront sin, is NO gospel at all!
Right!! Homosexuality is not the only bad sin...Lust plays a big part in it whether you are or not because PEOPLE LOVE SEX!!!
Romans 4:5 But to the one {person, human, sinner} that does not work {to change their sinful ways}, but {instead, as opposed to working to change to make their life less sinful or more righteous} believes on Him that JUSTIFIES THE WICKED. {Jesus the infinite eternal sin bearer imputes righteousness to each and every WICKED SINNER who believe His message or His Gospel}, this one's {person's, human's sinner's} belief {not belief plus effort to live righteously) is counted for righteousness. 1 John 5:5 "Who is he overcometh the world, but he that believes Jesus is the Christ ?" 1 John 5:1a "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:" What then did the lost sinner do to get saved? They believed THAT Jesus Is the Someone that saves. These did not seek justification through vain attempts to provoke God to save them through altering their moral values and moral lifestyle thereby making themselves more justifiable. These simply admitted they fell short and that Jesus did for them what they could not do for themselves. What then if there is no change? What if we like sheep keep going astray? Isaiah 53:6 All {not some} we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." It is characteristic of every human (Except Jesus the God Man) that we all sin & every one of us keeps going astray. It is characteristic of Jesus Christ that he keeps on bearing the iniquity of us all from those that are relatively good to those of us who do every form of evil. God's standard Is Jesus & He alone is PERFECT. Our ideas of repentance are relative. Some stop doing this sin and some stop doing that sin some may live a more righteous life than others but we all are in the same boat. "All have sinned and continually fall short of the Glory of God." @t 3%3A23&version=AMP Every second that we live from birth to death if at any point we were to seek eternal life based upon our worst or our best we would all fail in word thought deed motive & the purity of our very human essence. FAIL FAIL FAIL! Thank God our substitute sin bearer never is exhausted nor does the level of eternal grace in Him ever drain off. If we seek to be justified by our works then we cannot be justified by grace. Such seeking is sin in itself. We need to repent of trusting in our repentance & instead trust the one Whom rather kept bearing our sins until every category of it was paid in full. Though we may strive we may never get better at a Christian life than when we first began it. We may even get worse at it. Rom @,25 I pity the person who believes that their increased level of morality has something to do with their acceptance & the ones that fail the morality test are all the reprobate. "Matt 7Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." A successful (and admirable) life full of great works of deliverance is no guarantee nor evidence that any one is saved. I hope to God we all have excellent works to show for our salvation at the end of the day. But I hope to God that not one of us hates a brother in Christ for their lack of moral values & failing lifestyle. I for example never can get any better at my typing skills no matter how much I have practiced it. At times like above I even get WORSE
@@elmerbaez6784 It's natural. Lust: very strong sexual desire. Sexual orientation: a person's identity in relation to the gender or genders to which they are sexually attracted; the fact of being heterosexual, homosexual, etc.
homosexual: of, relating to, or characterized by a sexual or romantic attraction to people of one's same-sex
@@soteriology1012 is... Your username what I think it is? Savior + logos (or something)?
Particularly the sin of casting the stone of subjective comparison.
It was disappointing to hear Brandan continuously blame the patriarchy and straight white men for this. I hate to burst his bubble but blaming them for everything is heterophobic, racist, and sexist. I was however pleased to see he at least attempted to talk about scripture which most people on side A seem to avoid like the plague.
That said David does a far better job of not only drawing out the meaning of the text, but also pulling the whole tapestry of scripture together to form a cohesive and clear point.
Sadly this debate did seem to lack a bit of something and was a little bit meh. At least I got to win liberal bingo listening to Brandan though.
Not to be rude, but heterophobia does not exist. straight people have never been oppressed
@@belluh9765 an unnatural or unreasonable fear or hatred doesn't need to come from the grouo in question having been oppressed in any sense. Spiders have never been oppressed but you can still be aracnaphobic.
I know of a guy at my sisters uni who was kicked out of the LGBT for being heterophobic, so clearly not everyone would agree with your assessment, even within the LGBT groups.
Euan Thompson all that i’m saying is that there is a difference between punching down and punching up. lgbt people are reacting negatively to straight people because it has been the other way around for centuries. Although I do not condone being rude like this, it is the same behavior as a black men and women retaliating to white men and women.
@@belluh9765 I am glad to hear that you don't condone punching from either side. Punching is punching regardless of height.
I do find it interesting that you say it has been the other way around for centuries. Perhaps. But would that justify a role reversal? Or knowing the pain some in power have caused would mercy not be better than revenge? Particularly as many in this day and age have not suffered through any persecution in the west and are at great risk of being what they despise.
this makes you less ignorant and more loving - how!?
David is so right! I still believe he should try deliverance - it may help with his attraction. Regardless, bravo David!!! ✝️ ❤️
Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine.
I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for.
Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated.
To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you, we homosexuals are not offensive to what is right. Being YOU, at your essence, is always right. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it!
In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned.
As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws:
It's an abomination to eat shellfish.
It's an abomination to cut your hair.
It's an abomination to be tattooed.
It's an abomination to eat pork.
It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates.
I could go on, but you get the picture.
I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites.
Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that.
Paul is the one who says:
The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy.
To the pure, all things are pure.
And Jesus himself said:
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him.
Be pure of heart, and be yourself!
Love and Light!
Wow David, one of the best expressions of Christianity I’ve ever seen. You are truly seeking to glorify Christ, not the flesh like others. Well done.
you know what God thinks about it? Nah, you don't
I'm another video Brandan said Jesus was racist and that the woman rebuked Him and He repented of His racism from this...
Am I to believe this person is indwelled with The Spirit that thinks that The Word of God in flesh is fallible, racist, and mutable by human opinion?
Agree 100%, he is who Jesus will day he never knew them.
Repent as repent or as " expand your mind"? Can't remember what he said... Still, Jesus can't sin and be the lam at the same time. Or did God say to the people: oh, by the way, it's ok if you don't have a perfect animal to sacrifice, it's ok if you use an old female 🐑 as well".... No, it had to be perfect.
Brandan is strange...
hahahaha, maybe , yeah
God bless David and his heart of service. His words give so much peace and truth and seamless intertwining of scripture in his speech.
looks like he needs some prayers - overweight, repressed, miserable demeanour and no hope of romance. good to know he has well-wishers like you 🤣
Excellent discussion and well thougth through. We need to listen carefully to each other as Christians I can understand Brandan and I can understand the views of David.
We need wisdom and a humble attitude.
Thanks for this interesting discussion.
Blessings to you all from a Dutch Roman Catholic Christian.
David is such a wonderfully patient and well spoken man. So grateful for his voice.
you know what God thinks? Nope
Sheer idolatry when we make a god that ministers to our desires.
True! We make a God out of ourselves!
The god of the bible conforms to the desire of the people who wrote the bible
Frank 0603 Are you saying there's no spiritual guidance to those who wrote the bible?
@@PWNINSWAGMASTER yes. That's what I'm saying
Frank 0603 Well one of the reasons I find that hard to believe is because there is no belief system or set of moral principles in the world that does a better job of ensuring the survival and thriving humanity than the bible. Now of course if you dont care about that very much, then I cant really help you there.
This is a GREAT discussion....
I LOVE it.
God is the same yesterday, today & forever!!! Brandan should try deliverance & denying the flesh, instead of twisting scripture to fit his sinful desires! We are getting closer to the end, so, of course, churches are getting more LGBT affirming!
I’m too scared to read the comments because I already know they’ll all be hateful which breaks my heart.
lol ok
Yeah, same...
@@askmymomplease5363 mm, well, you'd be taken seriously by anyone with a functioning brain - why?
Most of them are so busy casting the stone of subjective comparison, they wont even notice your concern. How easy it is to throw these stones when someone else is on the recieving end of its cruelty.
@@christopherscheiber1439 there just saying that you can't be LGBT and Christian, no one is "throwing Stones"
Although I think the Bible is clear on homosexuality, I find it interesting watching honest, sincere people deal with how they feel God "created" them versus what he's said (in the Bible) what he thinks of them. It reminds me of the discussion of how God doesn't condemn slavery in the Bible. Most people feel that enslaving another person is wrong but can't understand why God doesn't say that specifically in the Bible. You have to "end up" with the conclusion that God agrees with you on these issues through "context" regardless of the direct biblical text. Or, deny what you and most of us feel/know to be true and accept God means what's in the Bible. How unfair is it to make a person gay and then turn around and declare how you disapprove.?
I appreciate and admire their bravery in this conversation and in life. Awesome people and conversation!
@Tony DC, exodus 21:20 " Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." This was wrong back then, now and in the future. Thou shall not own another human is the truth.
@Tony DC how much do you love and care for your slaves if it's ok to beat the slave because it's just property?
People love to get hung up on slavery.
Slave or free; owner or owned - they both have the same Creator and the same Redeemer.
The devil has so many bound up in the temporal that they spend their life missing the eternal.
In God's economy, the only thing that has ultimate value is Christ's redemptive work on the cross; all the rest is deceptive distraction.
Remember, this life is but a vapor; it's over within a blink of the eye. Where we're going to spend eternity should be priority number one, but folks want to debate the value of the artwork on the Titanic (slavery, sexuality, etc.), while ignoring (or simply not understanding) the fact that the ship is sinking.
Better to be a slave and know Jesus as your Savior than to possess all the world's riches and lose your soul for eternity.
The ship is sinking ... get in the Lifeboat.
P.S. Jesus is the Lifeboat.
@Tony DC, here's what you don't understand: If God would have directly condemned ownership of another human, we wouldn't be having this conversation. No context, no story, no extra reading required. It's just that simple. If he's able to condemn other thing (commandments) then why skip slavery? My people have suffered from slavery while God expected us to use context clues to determine he's against it???
@@Ransomhandsome, better to have proof that there is an afterlife before you dismiss humanities real suffering.
The young guy has such an educated dangerous mind. It’s obvious they will make all in their power to promote such youth with these implanted ideology of lies. twisting scriptures and blaming Historical Christian today’s caos is the game
The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does and to go a step further and claim that it condemns such relationships.
like, do ya know who you're talking about?
Brandan is a pastor in a progressive church - a church that contradicts Jesus and the Gospel. It’s what Alisa Childers targets. He also released a TikTok video claiming Jesus as biased. He opposes Christianity.
I applaud how David presented himself and his belief in God’s Word. He believes in the power of the Scripture. Amen to that!
Sexuality exists alongside myriad other human needs and tendencies. One can easily see how trauma, existential terror, desire for power, vanity could all coalesce around the natural desire for sexual pleasure and allow that set of overlapping phenomena to create the kind of harm, and cycles of harm that we might call sin. Easily morally categorizing our human activities, either to exonerate them or condemn them, seems the greatest error of all. Christ said it is what overflows from our heart, which is intangible motive, that is in turn shaped by the experience of being affected by the motives of others, that makes one unclean, not what we take into our mouth. Mostly this is seen as a metaphor, but when sexuality is discussed it becomes quite literal.
I don't think its meaningful, in this way, to categorize homosexuality or heterosexuality in terms of their moral acceptability or unacceptability. Too many other dynamics are found under the umbrella of those terms to have them be helpful moral heuristics.
I don't there there is a more clear cut physical earthly living metaphor for God and our relationship with Him than the gift that God has given in Sexuality..
..as such there are not many more clear deviations from God's will than abusing this gift through our own personal desires.
Sex between a Man and a Woman are living metaphors for the God and Human relationship.
@@kelvyquayo haha, no, but ok
I think Paul, in his letters, makes it clear where homosexuality stands in the church, that it is not to be practiced. The question I have, if God does not like homosexuality and doesn't want you to do it, what on earth otherwise should he say in his book, to tell you not to? Surely it is clear
Given that over 1000 species of animal exhibit homosexual behaviour, surely it is clear that God if he exists doesn't have a problem with it just because the authors of the bible claiming to be divinely inspired did.
The Bible never mentions commenting on TH-cam videos. From this, can we correctly assume that such an action is immoral? Of course not, that’s absurd.
The Bible also does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does mention them and even worse to go a step further and claim that it condemns such relationships.
@@M.H.I.A.F.T. well, some animals, like sweetwater angelfish eat their own eggs/offspring. Would we eat our baby's? Nearly all of us would not. Can you maybe provide a study? I only heard about penguins and now I'm interested about the others.
yea, that's a big if. But hey, you have a book, seemingly at odds with the real world, the author/s of which you don't know, originals of which don't exist and you rely on an anglicised version of ancient languages you probably haven't the faintest understanding of much less the ability to read
If you are heterosexual, of coarse you are not going to engage in the physical expression of homosexuality. You dont possess those desires.
No body is called to be 'fully them selves', bacause as flawed human beings that would also mean surrendering to our sinful nature(which Brandan is actually implying). And if we think about it truly, then no one has that kind of right anywhere. Parents restric their childrens life to protect them, spouses restrict one another to protect their marriage, police restricts citizens from unlawful behaviour and so forth. It's just an exuse to allow ourselves to satisfy our sinful desires. I really appreciate David for what he is doing. God bless him!!!
more fool him and you
According to Scripture the working of the Holy Spirit in a Christians life will bring about the mind of Christ and remake the person from within. We all need to allow/expect the Spirit to bring us into the life He has for us.. David has a very mature Christian outlook, and our society is over sexed and immature.
One can agree with the over-sexualization of media and pop culture while still supporting LGBT relationships. The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does.
@@theroguejester6412 I would caution you, and everyone, to not use the Bible as a reference book. In other words, don’t take a subject of interest and try to look it up. The Bible is written to tell who God is and about His relationship/plan for His people . As the story unfolds a framework of understanding is presented and applicable to our lives, detailed information that we want may are may not be present. Pay attention to what IS there, not what you want to see.
D CB Please read books by Jason Lee, Kathy Baldock, James Brownson, Dr. John Corvino, Colby Martin, Fr. Jim Martin, Fr. Daniel Helminiak, Susan Cottrell, Fr. James Alison, and Matthew Vines.
@@theroguejester6412 Thx for the suggestion, but I have my own studies that absorb me currently. Read the Bible for what it is, not what you want it to be.
D CB The Bible itself does not advocate Sola Scriptura. External research should be welcome if you actually care about truth
It’s troubling when Brandon speaks about how the spirit is showing is new truth, and how we should learn from it to get new insight from God.
Christ didn’t say that the spirit will guide you with new info. In fact, he says to test the spirit, to know whether it’s from God or not. Because he doesn’t just change his stance on morality or creation. It’s the same. Sin is sin.
I agree completely that the spirit does not show new truth, only truth that aligns with God.
I think sin can be a gray area however. Could it be that some people are not aware of something being a sin. Or some people are not able to escape a sin right away? Thank God for the grace of Jesus, I surely need it daily.
Sin is a religious concept, it doesn't actually exist unless you buy into the religious bullshit, free yourself and understand that sin is an imaginary disease religion has convinced you of so that religion can provide you the cure.
It has essentially cut you in order to sell you a band-aid
Crazy prayingmantis 😂😂😂 nah man, sin is a real thing. Thanks for the dense philosophical reasoning for saying it isn’t
I don't buy that it cuts you in order to sell you a band aid. So much of what is regarded as sin, is also regarded by the world as bad. Even atheists recognise that there are many bad things around.
Sarah Pfeuffer of course, sin is just going contrary to God. Everyone sins very day, even without realizing it. But there is recognizable sin. Most if not all come down to idolatry. Even sexual immorality. And most people know if they are committing idolatry.
The issue is that if you call what is clearly sin not sin, then you’re rebelling against God. If you try and change the character of God and what he says is Good, then you’re worshipping a false God
The natural law argument, or the idea that God's male/female design and intent implies a prohibition on homosexuality is so weak to me. God also intended for families to be biologically related, yet we don't condemn people for adopting children in a fallen world, or refuse to let them be called "parents."
Poor reasoning sir. There are examples of people being adopted and accepted into Israel throughout the bible. God's will is that all will come to the truth and accept it for salvation but he also gives us free will.
@@PDemi pff, his reasoning is just fine
Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow him.
What authority do you have to change the church.
Modern society is trying to throw away the cross and burn it. Your sin us what Jesus Christ wants to take away. To do that you have to detach from this world and all its lusts.
Does that include heterosexual people?
@@micahtandy4222 that includes every human being. We are made in His image. We all have our own cross to bear. For some its same sex attraction. For some its gambling or drugs. The problem today is that people want to change their vice and make it a virtue. Overcoming same sex attraction is a virtue.
@@micahtandy4222 even heterosexual people have their own struggles
@@DekoDeroman my point is you expect homosexual people to give up their sexuality and dont have the same standards for heterosexuals. This would make me question Gods omniscience. Also in my opinion, one homosexual man or woman is infinitely bigger than God, not Jesus, God.
The same church that condemned Galileo for his scientific discoveries? The Church that invented limbo, sold indulgences and tickets to heaven, instituted 400 years of slavery... etc?
Clearly understood scripture:
Brandon: It's allegory!
😑
Exactly
As a Catholic (who am queer, btw), it's almost as if Brandan is called to marriage (with a man), while David clearly has the charism of celibacy, as is the case with Catholic religious -- nuns, brothers, priests -- for centuries. Two different Christian callings, perhaps. Whether "Side A" or "Side B", we have been afforded the delight and priviledge to follow Christ. +He is Risen+. With Peter, we live this truth : "You are the Christ. You are the Son of God." Same-sex partnership is holy and more precious that we can imagine, and we as the Body of Christ have a need to acknowledge and to give thanks for and bless the calling of two men or two women entering into sacred partnership together in Christ. Paranthetically, despite that i identify with Brandon, i am suspect of his talk of "deconstruction" of the "orthodox" Christian faith from "colonial, oppressive" influences. Bullocks, of course.
Just read the comments senction and see why many LGBT and their allies AVOID Christianity, regardless of the fact there's some like Brandon that are trying to find a way through this mess. Some of us are simply tired of hanging out with toxic people who are more interested in being self-righteous than loving or gracious.
Funny that they use Romans 1 so often when Romans 2:1 calls them out on their own hypocrisy for they do the “very same things.”
@@bryanjones1498 People have a right to have personal boundaries, including safety and avoiding toxic relationships. That's not being unloving.
His argument about being charismatic and not being open to new truths because the canon is closed, is the same reason why charismatics are given a hard time. Then he says there is a role for Orthodoxy but there really isn’t. God can still speak today, and if he speaks something we need to test it against scripture. And the reason we need to distinguish canonization of the text, and the inspiration of scripture, is because our hearts are prone to desire evil or fulfill selfish wants.
Through whom would a god speak?
Brandon Robertson, I pray you see side B as David Bennett has. God Bless
Brandan seems more interested in changing the Word/interpreting the Spirit through modern, liberal wokeness than allowing God to be an actual authority in his life. Brandan's wisdom is greater than God's. So why not throw out the whole thing and make up your own religion?
Those who don't confess their sins, yet claim to be Christian, they have thrown the whole thing out and made up their own religion.
The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does.
@@theroguejester6412 is there a difference to it's sinfulness if it did mention non-pagan one's?
@@rydrakeesperanza5370 Context absolutely matters! Dining with Egyptians was once considered 'toevah' (abomination/taboo) according to the Old Testament, but no Jewish or Christian person abides by this rule today.
It is not "inherently immoral" to dine with an Egyptian person, although a shallow reading of the text might lead some to that conclusion. Similarly, it is not "inherently immoral" for two people of the same-sex to fall in love, although again, a shallow reading of the text could lead biased and ignorant readers that way.
oh, I thought that's exactly what YOU did , Luke, make up your own religion, in effect: you have (insane) beliefs, and more disturbingly - teachings, that cannot be traced to your ostensible Lord
David, I say this with all the love in the world as someone who struggles in the same way, drop the label of gay, a temptation pattern is not an identity. So proud of you for submitting to the Scriptures and teaching others to do the same.
Yeah, that's the only thing that really bothered me. We are called to find our identity in Christ. We are Christians. We are children of God. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are no longer bound by our sins. So then, to identify ourselves by what we are convicted of as sin seems problematic.
@@MCNinjaDJ Being gay isn’t a sin. It’s just an attraction. Should I not call myself a man, a brother, a student, or a Star Wars fan? These things describe me. Having descriptors isn’t the same as putting our identities in them. They can be where we put our identity. But saying “I’m gay” isn’t the same thing as putting ones identity in that, anymore than me saying “I’m a brother” is putting my identity in that
more fool him and you
"We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did- and in 1 day 23,000 of them died" (1 Corinthians 10:8)
I see alot of comments that are bashing brandan on his views and go ahead and have your disagreements, however dont use david as a symbol to justify your abuse by. This was a healthy convo between disagreeing men. I agree with David waay more than Brandan but I am happy this convo was had.
Praying Brendan repents and see s the truth
Hooray! Two beautiful people having a beautiful discussion (And no Answer Wilson talking dribble)
Concerning same sex relationships, sex that it is forbiden ,is in the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was from God. Both Old and New Testaments are in agreement concern this. I believe you know this Brandon but are trying to change God's law. May this not be allowed in the body of Christ. Best to start an GAY church. You are trying to reform God.
No hate but anyone who’s seen this Brandon dudes tiktok knows that he’s not even remotely Christian🙄
oh, so what?
“I haven’t exchanged the truth of God for a lie...” You sure about that?
@Pastor Brandan Robertson | Lead Pastor hey man i applaud you staying up and engaging with criticism. I respect you even though I have a different view. You engaged in a wonderful conversation here. God bless, my brother.
Are you sure you didn’t do this yourself? The Bible does not ever mention consensual, egalitarian, non-pagan same-sex relationships, and it is a dishonest anachronism to claim it does and to go a step further and claim that it condemns such relationships.
@Ashley Asareh Show me a consensual, egalitarian, non-cultic same-sexual relationship in the Bible.
what have you exchanged, ya ignorant narc?
@@camerong5513 lol
I think this Dave fella hit the nail on the head...whether we're hedro or homo, we as humans seam to think that we have this "right" to fulfill our sexual lust...we lie to ourselves and say it's love...instead it can be a sacrifice we make by crucifying our flesh for our Saviour who did so much more for us...brilliance