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As a fencing choreographer myself, I love the distance they maintain. You can actually see the bladework. Unlike today where the cameras are placed in tight close-ups to hide the actors inability with the blade. Also, normal audiences have no idea of the evolution of the sword and wouldn't know even if historical accurate weaponry was used. I agree that their execution was superb but I also understand the need for dramatic effect in a Hollywood action-adventure . It is not meant to be realistic.
As evident in that one Polish movie that I forgot the name of that has the great duel. I remember hearing that one of the actors nearly missed a parry and everyone on set was terrified, because he almost died
Dad fenced in Sicily in the 1950s . They used 1 inch wide Sabres . They wore leather padded jackets. He was concerned when I told him I was fencing Sabre in the 80s as people in his day were covered in welts. There was still an occasional duel going on when he fenced. He taught me old style Italian School foil. When I would get in trouble , I’d use it for a while to confuse the opponent until I regained my composure. His Maestro’s Salle were extras in an Errol Flynn Movie - ? Captain Blood. They boarded a pirate ship. I am 5foot 4. I ALWAYS fenced out of my opponent’s distance unless I made a mistake or had control of the blade,or was attacking in an open line. Short guys who stay in their opponent’s distance loose touches. The trick is to appear to be attacking to avoid being backed off the piste. Feints, invitations, second intention attacks. Gosh I miss fencing! Distance and tempo is 90% of fencing at higher levels. This is pretty good fencing in my mind. Check out Jose Ferrer in the first scene of Cyrano de Bergerac.
This choreography is far smoother and cleaner than almost any modern swordfight scene. Technology is highly important to reach new limits, but it can also result in laziness and people taking the easy way
@ have you watched "The Knight of Hope" or "Longsword Duel" by Adorea Olomouc? They put extra effort in making swordfight scenes as realistic and entertaining as possible. But Hollywood cares little about that; "it doesn't sell", I guess
I wouldn't say that's it's the choreography that's better so much as the cinematography. Now a days, directors rely heavily on wide shots to hide the use of stunt doubles and a lot quick cuts so that the actors/stunt people don't have to do as elaborate fight choreography as well as the hide mistakes.
@ Just out of curiosity, how would you use a blue screen to create a more realistic fight than just having the actors work with each other at safe distance?
@ That works with light sabers where you have to do the replacement anyway, but actual steel weapons would be a lot trickier, to the point where it's just not worth the effort to blue screen it and replace in post. Having the actors use safe props that look acceptable is just as easy and a lot cheaper and faster.
I agree completely. The start of the fight looks like sport, a matter of honour that can be resolved with one side backing down after feeling out each others' ability and indeed both characters give the other the opportunity to do just that. With both men equally matched and neither backing down, the fight gets closer and more wild, an actual fight. A fantastic visual example of escalation.
@@Robert399 It'll be partly that but also the same filmogrpahy reasons. The less complex motions make them look more tired but also more determined and carry more emotional weight
Also... I don't care what anyone says, you can make fun of the floppy blades, you can criticize the out of distance... but damn if these guys aren't both awesome at swords!
@Ulfhedinn Tyr True! I got thrust with a smallsword a while back (blunt one) just missed most of the padding. Got me right under the arm and this was in fencing gear. No real bruise, but it hurt for a week lol. And I imagine those two aren't wearin' any padding under those stylish 19th century clothes! A sabre is probably as stiff or more...
They might have not awesome skills (and they have it) but they look like they have and they are so convincing that I couldn't care less, ha ha ha. Enjoy every second of this fighting from my childhood to now.
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Another thing for the The Mark of Zorro duel is long cuts. It is unfortunately quite common and very annoying to have a cut after a cut in a fight scene.
@Luke Perkins - Even the ones with talent don't have the skills needed for fencing or other athletics. No matter how skilled the fight choreographer or how often they rehearse, accidents can happen. The result? Fancy sword twirling and peculiar moves to look flashy, combined with lots of cuts so that nobody notices that neither actor knows more than which end to hold.
Fims do show a lot of people using rapiers like sabres, as if they trained with sabre, but carried a rapier. I think it's becauase wide slashes are exciting to look at.
@@jasonpike9626 If they want to see a lot of cuts then why don't instead they use curved swords like cutlasses instead of the rapier? And I don't understand how a cutlass looks boring and a rapier looks cooler
Great analysis. I bet they used the modern swords because that's what Rathbone knew. Letting them use modern swords leveraged what both actors already knew about sword fighting without having to learn different swords or sabers, and that allowed the duel be performed at a very high level of skill.
i think the reason to see a lot of modern saber fencing in movies from that era was because that's what was popular enough to get an instructor for. Producers didn't wanna pony up the budget to for an authentic period-era instructor to teach their actors from scratch, so the studios just had them all learn what was most convenient and then stuck with it because the actors already knew the basics.
Basil Rathbone was an excellent fencer. He was an alternate on the British Olympic team. Also, there was stunt double used for Tyrone Power in much of the fight when you see his back. Lastly, they shot it at 24 fps instead of 30 to make it look faster.
My cousin, who was an actor in New York, lived next to Basil's widow, Ouida Bergere, in the early 1970's. She told him that Basil did a lot of training with the various heroes (Errol Flynn, especially) to improve their skills. However, the main reason the fights looked so good was that Basil was actually making an effort to make them look good, and that it always bugged him a little bit.
That was the Most Intense sword duel ever on screen...the passion shows through. My second would be Inigo Montoya vs. Count Rugen. I have watched "The Mark of Zorro" so many times I truly cannot count. That duel is so easy to watch over and over. Tyrone Power was amazing!!!
What I really liked in this scene is footwork. They move around a lot, changing angles and in general utilizing space around them. It is a very good example of how you can make visually engaging fight without over the top stuff that more modern movies prone to to do.
Hi. I'm an actor, a stage fencer/choreographer and a historical fencer myself. First, about the swords. Look closely. They are not sport fencing sabres. They are sport fencing sabre HILTS with epee blades mounted upon them. And yes they perform cuts with epee blades. The reason they used (and still use) these on stage is because Olympic sabre blades are too thin to be seen in long shots or from the back rows of the theater. Epee blades are slightly wider. Of course today they use aluminium replicas os swords, but they didn't exist in 1940. And a 800g sword is impossible to move at those speeds by people who are not wearing any kind of protection. All modern movie swords are aluminium. Stage plays however usually don't have the budget. A sport sabre hilt with an epee blade comes at 55 Euros. An aluminium sabre about 350 Euros. And remember, you need at least two of them to stage a fight. About the fight itself. Yes they are not fighting at the right distance. They're too far away from one another. And yes, the corps a corps is a cliché now. But from what I read in the comments, they're doing too many cuts. Indeed, a real fight never lasts that long. But let's not forget. It's a movie. It's made to entertain. Real fights are not entertaining. And this is the climax of the movie, the moment you've been waiting for since the characters were introduced. Not only was Rathbone an accomplished fencer, Fred Cavens (the choreographer) was a fencing master at the Brussels military academy in the late 1800's or early 1900's.
Excellent points. Katana live fighting lasts only 2 at most 3 strikes and one or both are mortally wounded. Katana movie fights of clanging metal last as long as American cowboy gun fights where they never run out of ammunition. Competitive sword match lasts only seconds before a touch.
Old actor skills. I remember a interview for Star Was about Christopher Lee about the the practice the younger actors went through for months for the lightsaber duels and how they had trouble keeping up with Lee. I think he was in his 70's at that time.
Yeah but Christopher Lee is a legend - also his rumoured times in the special forces....he learned it for real. There are good stories him giving some advise for Peter Jackson in LOTR....
@@bavariancarenthusiast2722 there was a time when actors were not just actors, trained in the theatre from birth. A time when an actor could be a real person with skills.
Well Sir Christopher Lee also starred in the old Musketeer movies so he has lots of sword fighting experience. And he is a legend in general. I really miss this man dearly.
Probably no, but spanish destreza does have a treta (technique) called the kiss of death in which the fencer would sort of bounce the blade on the opponent's levering an upwards cut that would cut the opponent's lips
@@mackenziebenedict8403 thats not even all of it, the spanish were masterful trickster fencers, they would throw sand, hats, capes, carry a wooden buckler with riveted borders to catch the opponent's way, if they got close they would grab the blade or pull the opponent's hat, all sorts of cheats
Still theatrical fencing, but I did like the fact that it displayed that the musketeers were more masters of brawling than some rigid rules of swordplay. Love the movies, but rarely watch them because I have always hated seeing Raquel Welch's character [damn this CRS! I can't remember her name right now] being killed. Loved her in this, she was perfect for the role.
Tyrone Power fenced from a very young age. Him and Basil Rathbone were known as the best fencers in Hollywood. Tyrone Power would have fenced Errol Flynn in a box according to Basil Rathbone.
I enjoyed your commentary and analysis of a classic Hollywood sword fight. I understand that Mr. Rathbone said that one of the best he ever came across was Danny Kaye. I hope you can review their fight in the movie, "The Court Jester", at some time in the near future!
Clearly the distancing is to help prevent actual injury during what is a very fast, intense and potentially slightly unpredictable fight (in the event of someone going wrong, at least) but I think the closing of distance as the fight progresses is perhaps calculated - they're ramping up the pressure on each other and that translates directly to the intensity of the fight for the viewer, which builds and builds. Also, the use of modern fencing swords allows it to be as fast (and cinematic) as it is. Look also at Rathbone's fight with Errol Flynn in The Adventures of Robin Hood... The swords they're using are - visually, at least - right for the period, but clearly are *far* lighter and are being used in pretty much exactly the same way as here - very fast, Olympic style fencing. Impossible with real versions of those swords, but nonetheless very exciting, and highly cinematic.
Fred Cavens, the fight choreographer on this movie, also worked on the Zorro Disney tv series with Guy Williams (Zorro) and Britt Lomond (Capitan Monastario), both actors having previously learned fencing at Aldo Nadi's school (their skill and ready fight chemistry won them the parts, though they only knew competition fencing and had to re-learn screen fencing). I don't know if Cavens did the same on this film 17 years earlier, but on the Disney production the actors used sabre guards with epee blades; because the epees were a heavier, stiffer blade, they were less likely to whip around during engagement and accidentally hit an actor. Even so, Guy accidentally cut Britt above the eyebrow during their very first take (the makeup artists were terrified they would give Britt blood poisoning if they covered the cut with powder :P) An actor playing villain-of-the-week was also injured during an improvised duel scene; the button on the end of Guy's blade hit the actor in the eye just barely, lifting the lens and causing copious bleeding, luckily no deeper damage. Some of the blades were sharp and not tipped with buttons, so the mook of the episode could be disarmed and have their blade go flying to end up stabbed into a plywood sheet on the wall of the set.
It looks like this fight scene had a huge influence on the two duels in The Princess Bride. From the way they were twirling their swords to the climb to higher ground. The only thing Zorro was missing was the witty repartee, but I guess that the dialogue in The Princess Bride during those scenes weren't too dissimilar, just more comdeic. Matt, for your next movie fight review you should do the modern Zorro movie that featured Antonio Banderas, Catherine Zeta-Jones, and Anthony Hopkins.
I never thought being a Zorro fan that Hannibal Lecter would be playing the older original Zorro. He did a wonderful job and brought great compassion to the character. Originally it was supposed to be Raul Julia as the older Zorro, he was quite a swordsman, and Andy Garcia as his protege. However, Andy Garcia was committed to another movie at the time, and unfortunately Raul Julia passed away.
As a theatre director, actor and fight choreographer I try to keep the actors safe. 🤺 Keeping them out of each other's reach is a way to do that. Personally I get them to start the attack from a distance where the other would be hit without a parry and then the defender will either dodge, or move in so that the most dangerous part of the opponent's blade is passed them, or move out of reach... as would happen in a real fight. This way it is only when the attack is finished that they are out of range, so the attack is made in range.💪 Also I get the attacks to actually aim for the target and it is through moving, partying, doing and some slight alterations to the execution of the cuts that the actor are kept safe, while maintaining the illusion of violence. Unless they are exchanging some blows without moving their feet in order to get some specif effect, in this case they stay out of reach. 🤔 Stage fight is meant to have a component of entertainment in most cases and must keep the actors safe, even though they have no protective gear. 🤔 Thus, you get longer sequences than you would get in a real fight and you must make some concessions to safety and narrative. We are not gladiators. 😅 Oh, by the way. From the 26th to the 28th of February 2021 the AAI (Académie d'Arms International) is hosting another World Stage Fencing Championship, this time at Puy du Fou, a theam park in France. You may find it interesting.
Amazing! The series of disengagements, at one point Zoro did double or even triple circular 6th (or 3rds for a sable) to avoid the blade, and at the end masterfully avoided the parries! But never forget, fencing was thought at schools and universities at the time. The distance thingy was done on purpose i guess to change the dynamics of the fight, from the initial 'cool' stage to the more dramatic 'in your face' ending, which seems fine... comparing to the modern 'zoro' this is a work of art.
Good sides of sport sabers and out of distance: much safer for actors in case of any mistake during practicing or filming. No stunts, no any kind of protection ("chainmail" made out of gray wool, something beneath it)... much less margin of error allowed compared to fight in Ivanhoe with Liz Taylor.
> was Diego really making the implied insult I think he was, here? Probably not. Both were married during the filming. The characters, maybe. Getting things right up to the Code was always a game.
Movies used to be way more clever and subtle (sometimes) than this modern crap they serve us these days. (I guess they fear that most of the "dumb masses" wouldn't get the joke, which i fear could be true, imo.)
My favourite Zorro fight is actually in the Disney series where he is fighting for his life in his Don Diego de la Vega identity. So he had to parry every attack while flailing around to appear like he is a terrible swordsman. It is really quite impressive choreography.
You know, I have to say, how it ends, that was damned good. I mean, really damned good. Not just how it closed the distance, but that end with that single, sharp clean thrust. When it came down to it, the better swordsman just ended it. No monologue how they're superior, just done. I might have to watch this movie in full.
@@mallardtheduck406 Which is why I like this so much. He brought that, after seeing the cut, he knew he had to end it. And then it was over. No unnecessary blade play, showing offing, no fake defeat to win, no unnecessary blood. Just ended it. Assuming I'm talking about the right guy. I'm yet to have the wake up brew.
@@leonpeters-malone3054 Basil Rathbone is the bad guy here:) And yes, I'd defo recommend seeing the whole film. I think it's still one of the best superhero movies.
I love the movie reviews, and this one touched on a movie that was one of my favorites when i was a kid. This, and the Adventures of Robin Hood, I always eagerly awaited to be shown on TV (no video rentals in the 70s). Great job Matt.I agree with Erik that the distance is forgivable due to safety concerns. But this was an exciting duel to watch (Basil Rathbone never fails to impress). I have read that the difference between sport and stage fencing is that stage fencers are trying to hit the opponents sword, while the sport fencer is just trying to hit the opponent. Would you say that is a true statement?
". . . I always eagerly awaited to be shown on TV (no video rental in the 70s)." Or 60s, when I also waited eagerly for the TV showings of these classics!
in this scene i always felt like the early part of the fight was much more a formal duel in the minds of both fighter, so i'm okay with the less than realistic distances. But then as the fight goes on and you can clear see both characters are feeling less and less gentlemanly, they get rougher and more intent on actually hurting each other (in the context of the plot). But then from a dramatic point of view that also makes this scene kinda' awesome, it's pretty good story telling through a sword fight as opposed to just being a sword fight.
Wonderful video! This film duel inspired me to become a college saber fencer in the late 1970/early 1980s. I got quite good and faced a number of world class sabreurs, notably world champions Pal Gerevich of Hungary and Michel Maffei of Italy. Of course, they both crushed me, but I still had my moments and I placed in a number of US tournaments). An interesting aspect of The Mark of Zorro duel is most often when Tyrone Power's back is to the camera (in the fancier parts of the scene) he is doubled by Albert Cavens, an actual swordsman, who was the son of the scene's choreographer, Fred Cavens. It is Albert who lunges into the bookcase, and Albert who spears Rathbone at the end. You can get a glimpse of Albert's face at 11:11. All of these decades later I still adore this scene. No music, no leaping on parapets and furniture, just an indoor fast paced fight scene in close quarters that packs an emotional wallop.
Not only is there a nod to Zorro in the movie Bruce Wayne went to, but Batman's cape, cowl and other character points were influenced by Zorro. Who knows perhaps we can explain the swords away like Batman's gear as ultra tech funded by Don Diego's fortune. :P
Didn't Basil Rathbone also play Sir Guy of Gisbourne in the Robin Hood movie. It's been years since I seen that film but the sword fighting looked similar if I recall.
He also fought Errol Flynn in Captain Blood, and he had a fight with Danny Kaye in The Court Jester. But the only time Basil Rathbone ever won a movie fight was in 1936's Romeo and Juliet, in which he played Tybalt and killed Mercutio.
@@Blokewood3 Very good, I couldn't remember where he had won, but I knew he did, at least once!. I believe he also fought and wone (single stick) in one of the old Sherlock Holmes adventures???
Probably the same as this: th-cam.com/video/1Y5fmah5pIg/w-d-xo.html I don't actually like the Robin Hood fight much but I'm guessing Matt's big historical criticism would be that they're using medieval arming swords as if they were Victorian sabres.
@@Robert399 "Welcome to Sherwood!" Yeah, Robin of Locksley didn't go swinging around on vines much in any of the literary versions of the story I've encountered, either... ;-)
Excellent. You’ve rightly praised the actors’ fluency. I’d also commend the director and editor, for trusting the actors. They let Rathbone and Power go at it, without countless rapid edits or deceptive close-up shots. This is closer to HK choreography and cinema than modern Hollywood.
Great choice to show the details and distinctions... congrats. also, those cinematographers really understood photographic compression and set dynamics. Great stuff.
This entire film holds up so well. I saw it was on the Disney + service and watched it for the first time and absolutely loved it. The coreography and stunts were so well done.
Ah, Basil Rathbone, the best swordsman in Hollywood. Overshadowed by him being an even better villain. Poor guy had to take the fall for worse fencers all the time.
I came upon a colorized version of this fight after watching the banderas zorro fights. After rathbone swung at the first candle i got excited but when the actual fight started i was completely blown away. The fake distance does nothing to hide their obvious skill. Best fencing scene ive seen hands down.
The fight in the old movie was more a duel, than a selfdefence fight. In TH-cam i have seen some time ago a number of french newsreels from the 1900s to 1960s showing duels, often with the name of the opponents, also an italian newsreel from the interwar time, so we can see the real duel fencing. But as far as i know, there had been some differences of rules in the different countries. A german nobleman, visitung the south of USA and the north of Mexico in the 1850s saw a machete duel of two mexicans , but on US soil. He wrote, the men cut each other, but only not so deep wounds, because in Mexico not so deep cuts are not so hard punished. Also a in a movie arround 1940 ( The life and death of captain Blimp??) , i have forgotten the correct name, contains a duel scene between a german and a british ( or US) officer. A swedish officer was the referee , who told the rules. And , i am german, but no fencer. There are in TH-cam clips of two german black and white movies, which contain german accademic fencing, which is basicly a ritualized duel. One of the movies is , Der Untertan' made about 1950 and the other one is from the 1930s , ( attention Propaganda!) , when i remember corect, the name is ,Hans Westmar, einer von uns.' In the comments of those clips there are comments of current/alive academic fencers, which say , either they fought before 1950 in a different style than now, or the producers/actors simply did not know academic fencing.
@@VideoMask93 Lol. No. It was intentional. The actor swung his sword to make it look like it hit the candle and they added that effect in post. BTW, scratches don't go all the way through the film in case you thought that.
I feel like they ramped the fight up in a very deliberate way: "This is what you expect from a film" - side-on out of distance exchange of blows, but showing better skill with the swords than most. "This makes it look better" - still out of distance, but on top of the superior swordsmanship, they use camera angles which disguise the range issues. "But this is what a *REAL* movie can do!" - closing in and showing off skill within a range where either fighter could actually get hurt if they screw up.
The close distance fighting you mentioned toward end of fight was allowed because Tyrone Power's double was the son of the choreographer and an excellent fencer. Rathbone was a competitive fencer who did all his own bladework. Between the two of them, they did the more complex and 'at distance' parts.
I like the way Rathbone;s character prepares himself with a bit of stretching. It is little details like this that convince you that he knows what he is doing. Please do Scaramouche next.
I think in this case the open measure in the first shot is meant - combined with the specific moves used - to show the two combatants sizing one another up. As such I feel that although it's worth pointing out, it's also forgivable as part of the narrative of the scene. Later on, then the characters are committing more the the duel, the camera takes pains to always foreshorten the the distance between them and hide that they are out of measure. This is definitely one of the finest sword fights in western cinema - possibly one of the greatest ever - not only because it is so technically skilled, but because it also communicates a great narrative within itself whilst advancing the plot. With barely any dialog we watch Captain Pasquale begin contemptuous of Don Diego Vega, then become more and more desperate as he realises he is outmatched and about to die. However in defeating Captain Pasquale Don Diego undoes himself, as witnessing the duel reveals to Don Luis that Don Diego is actually Zorro, leading to his capture. Great stuff.
Hey, that was amazing! I have very much appreciated your remarks. Let me enjoy even more the details of the movie. Not at all disappointed regarding the kind of sword they have used. Prob no one not so closely acquainted to fencing and history would have noticed it, imho. As a long term "pirate movies" lover, for me this one is the best fencing duel I've ever seen. Still remember my first impressions as a teen ager when I saw it the first time. Still now, my skin goes goose bumps. So well coreographed and the camara work is amazing too keeping the constant feeling of threat, in spite of the "covering" for the bigger distance between the fighters. Camera's usually abuse it by taking a shot from only one of the fighters fencing against whatever he's fencing (his shadow, maybe). Moreover, in this scene we always see both fencer giving and parrying hits what gives it a more deep sense of the fighting. They also do not abuse the use of jumpings and other acrobatic resources film makers use to use at that time. Besides both actors show they are skilled on what they are doing what conveys a sense of "reality" to the fight. Another aspect i'd like to highlight is the absolute absence of music/sound effects. By todays standards, they'd have surelly and unfortunatelly put some Gun's'Roses or other totally out of plaace heavy metal music (hey I love HM but, not at all times) in the background in a stupid supposition that it'll add to the action. Sooo lame! Besides, no need for CGI or special effects either! So, as I stated in the very beginning the best sword fight/coreography/camera work in cinema, imho.
The legend I heard about that was that Kaye had no fencing experience but his natural ability was such that the older Rathbone had trouble keeping up with him.
@@matthewbaugh5560 Yeah, that's what I've heard. I can believe it, since Danny Kaye got his start as a dancer (so the footwork would have come relatively easily for him).
@@matthewbaugh5560 As great as he was, Basil Rathbone was in his 60s during that fight and wasn't as fast as he used to be. For a few of the really fast exchanges the fight director stood in as Rathbone's double.
I love this movie. It started my life long obsession with swords when my grandfather showed it to me when I was 3. Wore a mask and cape everywhere I went until I was 6 or 7 haha.
Fred Cavens, the master fencer who choreographed this fight designed it to take place in the confines of one room and to make it more realistic rather than the OTT jumping on and over furniture and such like of other movies of the day. With that in mind, and knowing a little of period sword fighting, I feel the argument that at the start they were 'feeling' each other out makes logical sense. These two men had never crossed swords but Zorro knew the reputation of the Captain, he would want to size his opponent up first before risking lunges which could leave him open.
Someone needs to get onto directing a movie solely for the purpose of having a sword duel in it where they have a classic face-to-face sword bind, and for one of the characters to start monologuing only for the other dude to punch them square in the face and ruin the moment. Instant classic.
@14:53 The filmmakers are deliberately building the tension and portraying a sense of the fight becoming less controlled and more desperate to reach a conclusion, as time goes on and fatigue sets in.
Watching Zorro movies as a kid is why I became a fencer (modern Olympic) as an adult. Most male fencers I knew said the same sort of thing. I have huge respect for stage fencers, it's way more dangerous than people realize. Yeah yeah, they're mostly fencing out of distance. But mistakes happen, I can't count how many times in a choreographed lesson I've stepped forward when I should have stepped back and got nailed. Embarrassing with a Kevlar jacket and rigid steel mask, potentially fatal without it.
I read that, in the old studio system, contracted actors were made to take lessons in fencing, horsemanship, and other skills they would need for roles between movies.
Basil Rathbone was a really phenomenal fencer and Tyrone Powers worked incredibly hard to prepare for the role and really impressed Rathbone with his fencing. But they did sub in the fencing master for Tyrone Powers a couple of times in this scene. As good as he was, Powers still wasn't good enough for all of the fight choreography in this scene (but Rathbone was :)) If you notice, in some of the sections where the distance is closer, Diego's back is to the camera. Also during the final lunge...
The dramatic blade lock you keep seeing where the characters push against each other is referred to as a "corps-a-corps." When being trained in stage combat for single sword and rapier & dagger this is actually a required move on the final skill proficiency test.
Excellent film - I've only seen it once, but it holds up despite being a full 80 years old. The sheer fluid athleticism of the combat is one of its great strengths. The equipment and techniques may be anachronistic and filmic, but the speed and the framing helps it to feel weighty and real.
This scene never gets old. I'm guessing (and this is only a guess as my memory is fuzzy) that the exchanges that were in distance, particularly where you can't see Mr. Power's face, is where a double was used. Mr. Rathbone didn't need one, as he was the more experienced fencer, so I imagine all parties concerned were comfortable enough to risk it. IIRC, Mr. Rathbone also preferred those military style sabers.
The double in the longer shots is Albert Cavens, the son of the legendary choreographer for this fight, Fred Cavens. Tyrone Power's mother, Maria, was an Olympic-level fencer herself and had given him some relatively basic-level training when he was younger. For context, Power was 26 and Rathbone 48 at the time of release of this film.
Matt, I love you and I love your videos. I also prefer sponsorships to normal youtube ads because they're always fully skippable, and all the money goes to the content creator; google has plenty of money. All that said, two full minutes is kind of crazy to me. Sure, it's almost as easy to skip a two minute spot as a 15 second one; that's not really the issue. It just blows my mind that anyone is expected to sit through all that. I don't say all this to say "don't," cause really, good on ya. Get that money. I guess I'm just venting.
I love this movie, I own this movie and blame it and the Adventure of Robin Hood on my love of history, sword fighting and all things fantasy. Basil Wrathbone was one of the best swordsmen in Hollywood during the swashbuckler era.
Oh, you should watch the full movie. The whole thing is loaded with sly remarks and innuendos. Powers plays his non-Zorro side like a complete ponce, like almost flaming, as he wants to seem harmless while he collects information about what is going on. It's a meme in classic Spanish theatre that an effete or cultured gentleman may actually turn out to be the most dangerous, while the machos talk loud but don't have as much skill in the end. In one of the great ones (Fuenteovejuna), the deadliest swordsman in the region is a quiet country grape farmer with fine manners and a dry sense of humor.
Wasn't Zorro taking place when California still part of Spain? They talk about going back to Madrid, not Mexico City. That makes it more like late 1700's or early 1800's.
Poor Rathbone, because of his look he was always cast as the villain and therefore always had to lose to the hero, played a man who was a much inferior swordsman. Much like Lee Van Cleef in Westerns, where he was usually the best gunman but had not the look of a movie hero and so must lose in the end.
This duel is one of my favourite duels simply because of the killing blow, you see Zorro completely in the Captain's headspace and just toying with him at that point, it's almost silent save for the sound of whirring feints and disengages. I understand you criticism of this fight being a "staged fight" but even as staged fights go this has one of the best feels imo. As you concede, this is one of the fights where they actually start committing to lunges at the fight progresses, showing that after some initial non-committal swordplay they get the feel of each other enough to begin more committed, lethal moves. To me, this narrative of the fight culminates in that killing move I mentioned earlier where Diego is shown to be so confident of what Esteban is going to do that he goes in for a series of feints that span an eternity (which must certainly seem insulting, condescending and horrifying to the Capitan) before landing a very clean killing blow after getting through all that defensive bladework. It's stage fencing of course, but as you say, it's stage fencing with a narrative and executed by highly competent fencers. The bladework in particular is one of the highlights that really sell this fight, there isn't a lot of big, committed swings or movements you'd get in modern swordfights, it's all the honed, minute movement that tells you both of these gentlemen would lunge straight for the kill as soon as one of them knew they had a clean path over the other. Once again, these sorts of movements are only possible to be captured on screen because both duelists have fencing backgrounds. A lot of fluff and unnecessary sequences are added because this is a staged fight, but as staged fights go, this one feels a lot tighter.
One thing I might suggest about the distance is the factor of the drama of the story. In a real duel or fight the goal is usually to take out the opponent as quickly as possible to minimize risk to yourself. In a movie, the goal is to put on a performance, indeed a character may even want to put on a show for other characters sometimes. This could explain why they spend so much time testing each other before getting serious.
Pretty sure the reason why they're in distance in the latter part of the fight but they weren't earlier is a filmography one. By having them closer together it increases the threat and tension. The fight starts out relaxed and 'safe' and gets more and more desperate as it goes on
I totally get what you're always saying about distance, however it does make sense to me that historical weapons fights, at least duels, would often be "out of distance" for relatively large portions of the fight, especially at the beginning. Watch almost any match of almost any combat sport and you'll see that they tend to be out of distance a lot, especially for the so-called "feeling out process," which I acknowledge that you acknowledged in this video. That said, I can imagine that making it a life or death situation would increase a lot people's tendency to stay out of range until they saw a good opening. Given that a relatively light sword strike to the outstretched sword arm could be a game changer I imagine that the feeling out with swords involves more distance than with punches and kicks. I don't know anything, just guessing and pondering. Thanks for all these video, it's fun to learn about sword and such.
I mean, this is Basil Rathbone, generally acknowledged as the best swordsman actor in all Hollywood history. This and his scene in The Adventures of Robin Hood are two of the best swordplay scenes in all of cinema.
Excellent review, as I've come to expect. I so wish you would do a review of the climactic saber duel in 1952's Prisoner of Zenda. I think you would find it right in your wheelhouse. And Granger and Mason happen to be superb...
Matt, since we're talking Zorro, I'd love to see you break down the duels in the Mask of Zorro starring Antonio Banderas, Anthony Hopkins, and Catherinr Zeta-Jones.
The way they're undressing before the fight starts is everything. It's the first time in the film either of the characters have taken their opponent seriously, and it's such a great way of showcasing it.
The 1974 TV remake does the same thing. Frank Langella's Zorro and Ricardo Montalban's Pasquale strip down before trying to kill each other. The only difference is that Langella's in full Zorro costume for the fight, and unmasks just before spearing Pasquale.
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can you review the obi wan vs darth maul fight the actual fight is only about 5 seconds long which i think makes it very interesting.
th-cam.com/video/4Fye6X4h09Q/w-d-xo.html
@@CaptianDerp69 Shadiversity is the guy who likes to go frame-by-frame on Star Wars duels, so you'd be better off asking him.
They got Matt! Blink twice if you need rescued big man.
Thank you so much for this. I have been waiting and waiting for someone to cover this fight.
This and Cyrano de Bergerac with Jose Ferrer.
"I'm an antique sword dealer."
You've worn well, you don't look anywhere near that old.
As a fencing choreographer myself, I love the distance they maintain. You can actually see the bladework. Unlike today where the cameras are placed in tight close-ups to hide the actors inability with the blade. Also, normal audiences have no idea of the evolution of the sword and wouldn't know even if historical accurate weaponry was used. I agree that their execution was superb but I also understand the need for dramatic effect in a Hollywood action-adventure . It is not meant to be realistic.
I kind of forgive that they keep out of distance in movies. The possibility of injury is kind of real.
As evident in that one Polish movie that I forgot the name of that has the great duel. I remember hearing that one of the actors nearly missed a parry and everyone on set was terrified, because he almost died
@@LS-sp5hr Potop?
@@keeganowens8949 I think so? I believe Matt has done a review of the fight
Even a scratch to actors face would pause filming, maybe even end a career.
@@LS-sp5hr Yes, in English it is called the Deluge.
Rathbone was known as the finest swordsman in Hollywood. His duels with Errol Flynn are among the top ten too.
Sad that they stunt doubled most of Lee's fights and had him spend so much time twirling his blade over his head than fighting.
@@Scott-qq9jd Indeed - Christopher Lee was a highly accomplished sabreur.
Dad fenced in Sicily in the 1950s . They used 1 inch wide Sabres . They wore leather padded jackets. He was concerned when I told him I was fencing Sabre in the 80s as people in his day were covered in welts. There was still an occasional duel going on when he fenced.
He taught me old style Italian School foil. When I would get in trouble , I’d use it for a while to confuse the opponent until I regained my composure.
His Maestro’s Salle were extras in an Errol Flynn Movie - ? Captain Blood. They boarded a pirate ship.
I am 5foot 4. I ALWAYS fenced out of my opponent’s distance unless I made a mistake or had control of the blade,or was attacking in an open line. Short guys who stay in their opponent’s distance loose touches. The trick is to appear to be attacking to avoid being backed off the piste. Feints, invitations, second intention attacks. Gosh I miss fencing!
Distance and tempo is 90% of fencing at higher levels.
This is pretty good fencing in my mind. Check out Jose Ferrer in the first scene of Cyrano de Bergerac.
IIRC, Ladd's mother was an Olympic fencer, and she taught him.
Sorry. Tyrone Power.
This choreography is far smoother and cleaner than almost any modern swordfight scene. Technology is highly important to reach new limits, but it can also result in laziness and people taking the easy way
@ have you watched "The Knight of Hope" or "Longsword Duel" by Adorea Olomouc? They put extra effort in making swordfight scenes as realistic and entertaining as possible. But Hollywood cares little about that; "it doesn't sell", I guess
I wouldn't say that's it's the choreography that's better so much as the cinematography. Now a days, directors rely heavily on wide shots to hide the use of stunt doubles and a lot quick cuts so that the actors/stunt people don't have to do as elaborate fight choreography as well as the hide mistakes.
Insurance probably has something to do with it as well.
@ Just out of curiosity, how would you use a blue screen to create a more realistic fight than just having the actors work with each other at safe distance?
@ That works with light sabers where you have to do the replacement anyway, but actual steel weapons would be a lot trickier, to the point where it's just not worth the effort to blue screen it and replace in post. Having the actors use safe props that look acceptable is just as easy and a lot cheaper and faster.
Putting the fighters in closer distance as the fight went on could have been intentional to gradually increase drama/sense of danger to a climax.
I think so too.
I agree completely. The start of the fight looks like sport, a matter of honour that can be resolved with one side backing down after feeling out each others' ability and indeed both characters give the other the opportunity to do just that. With both men equally matched and neither backing down, the fight gets closer and more wild, an actual fight. A fantastic visual example of escalation.
Possibly. You can see though that the motions get less complex as the actors get closer, presumably for safety reasons.
@@Robert399 It'll be partly that but also the same filmogrpahy reasons. The less complex motions make them look more tired but also more determined and carry more emotional weight
I agree, I think it might be deliberate as the passions rise and they truly become intent on killing each other.
Also... I don't care what anyone says, you can make fun of the floppy blades, you can criticize the out of distance... but damn if these guys aren't both awesome at swords!
@Ulfhedinn Tyr True! I got thrust with a smallsword a while back (blunt one) just missed most of the padding. Got me right under the arm and this was in fencing gear. No real bruise, but it hurt for a week lol. And I imagine those two aren't wearin' any padding under those stylish 19th century clothes! A sabre is probably as stiff or more...
They might have not awesome skills (and they have it) but they look like they have and they are so convincing that I couldn't care less, ha ha ha. Enjoy every second of this fighting from my childhood to now.
Another thing for the The Mark of Zorro duel is long cuts. It is unfortunately quite common and very annoying to have a cut after a cut in a fight scene.
@Luke Perkins - Even the ones with talent don't have the skills needed for fencing or other athletics. No matter how skilled the fight choreographer or how often they rehearse, accidents can happen. The result? Fancy sword twirling and peculiar moves to look flashy, combined with lots of cuts so that nobody notices that neither actor knows more than which end to hold.
Fims do show a lot of people using rapiers like sabres, as if they trained with sabre, but carried a rapier. I think it's becauase wide slashes are exciting to look at.
@@jasonpike9626 If they want to see a lot of cuts then why don't instead they use curved swords like cutlasses instead of the rapier? And I don't understand how a cutlass looks boring and a rapier looks cooler
@@IamPatrickStar Goodness knows.
Rathbone once said that Tyrone Power could fence Errol Flynn into a cocked hat.
Great analysis.
I bet they used the modern swords because that's what Rathbone knew. Letting them use modern swords leveraged what both actors already knew about sword fighting without having to learn different swords or sabers, and that allowed the duel be performed at a very high level of skill.
They are lighter and easier to use without damaging the valuable actor and delaying production. 99% of the audience wouldn't know any better.
i think the reason to see a lot of modern saber fencing in movies from that era was because that's what was popular enough to get an instructor for. Producers didn't wanna pony up the budget to for an authentic period-era instructor to teach their actors from scratch, so the studios just had them all learn what was most convenient and then stuck with it because the actors already knew the basics.
@@petriew2018 both actors learn fencing at a very young age, power learned at 6.
Basil Rathbone was an excellent fencer. He was an alternate on the British Olympic team. Also, there was stunt double used for Tyrone Power in much of the fight when you see his back. Lastly, they shot it at 24 fps instead of 30 to make it look faster.
My cousin, who was an actor in New York, lived next to Basil's widow, Ouida Bergere, in the early 1970's. She told him that Basil did a lot of training with the various heroes (Errol Flynn, especially) to improve their skills. However, the main reason the fights looked so good was that Basil was actually making an effort to make them look good, and that it always bugged him a little bit.
That was the Most Intense sword duel ever on screen...the passion shows through. My second would be Inigo Montoya vs. Count Rugen. I have watched "The Mark of Zorro" so many times I truly cannot count. That duel is so easy to watch over and over. Tyrone Power was amazing!!!
"Flynning" :-)
...Basil Rathbone was a master actor, masterly villain, and a masterful fight choreographer.
What I really liked in this scene is footwork. They move around a lot, changing angles and in general utilizing space around them. It is a very good example of how you can make visually engaging fight without over the top stuff that more modern movies prone to to do.
Hi. I'm an actor, a stage fencer/choreographer and a historical fencer myself. First, about the swords. Look closely. They are not sport fencing sabres. They are sport fencing sabre HILTS with epee blades mounted upon them. And yes they perform cuts with epee blades. The reason they used (and still use) these on stage is because Olympic sabre blades are too thin to be seen in long shots or from the back rows of the theater. Epee blades are slightly wider. Of course today they use aluminium replicas os swords, but they didn't exist in 1940. And a 800g sword is impossible to move at those speeds by people who are not wearing any kind of protection. All modern movie swords are aluminium. Stage plays however usually don't have the budget. A sport sabre hilt with an epee blade comes at 55 Euros. An aluminium sabre about 350 Euros. And remember, you need at least two of them to stage a fight.
About the fight itself. Yes they are not fighting at the right distance. They're too far away from one another. And yes, the corps a corps is a cliché now. But from what I read in the comments, they're doing too many cuts. Indeed, a real fight never lasts that long. But let's not forget. It's a movie. It's made to entertain. Real fights are not entertaining. And this is the climax of the movie, the moment you've been waiting for since the characters were introduced. Not only was Rathbone an accomplished fencer, Fred Cavens (the choreographer) was a fencing master at the Brussels military academy in the late 1800's or early 1900's.
Excellent points. Katana live fighting lasts only 2 at most 3 strikes and one or both are mortally wounded. Katana movie fights of clanging metal last as long as American cowboy gun fights where they never run out of ammunition. Competitive sword match lasts only seconds before a touch.
It's a movie dude. Hahahahaah
Old actor skills. I remember a interview for Star Was about Christopher Lee about the the practice the younger actors went through for months for the lightsaber duels and how they had trouble keeping up with Lee. I think he was in his 70's at that time.
Yeah but Christopher Lee is a legend - also his rumoured times in the special forces....he learned it for real. There are good stories him giving some advise for Peter Jackson in LOTR....
@@bavariancarenthusiast2722 there was a time when actors were not just actors, trained in the theatre from birth. A time when an actor could be a real person with skills.
@@bavariancarenthusiast2722 is that where he criticised how someone being stabbed in the heart sounds?
@@McBlazington That was Return of the King
Well Sir Christopher Lee also starred in the old Musketeer movies so he has lots of sword fighting experience. And he is a legend in general. I really miss this man dearly.
Always my favorite Hollywood sword fight. Don't know anything about fencing but this looked like the real deal. Great performances.
I was hoping to learn if it is possible to quickly cut a Z into the opponent's forehead. ^^
Probably no, but spanish destreza does have a treta (technique) called the kiss of death in which the fencer would sort of bounce the blade on the opponent's levering an upwards cut that would cut the opponent's lips
ManOhMan that’s so evil.
I love it
@@mackenziebenedict8403 thats not even all of it, the spanish were masterful trickster fencers, they would throw sand, hats, capes, carry a wooden buckler with riveted borders to catch the opponent's way, if they got close they would grab the blade or pull the opponent's hat, all sorts of cheats
ManOhMan all’s fair when ones life is at stake
Based on Inglorious Basterds, I think it actually take some time to do it properly ....
How about a similar treatment for Richard Lester’s Musketeer films?
That movie really impressed me at the time, and I still love the fight scenes.
I second that! I remember some awesome fights - sword and cloak, sword and lamp, but how good were they?
Still theatrical fencing, but I did like the fact that it displayed that the musketeers were more masters of brawling than some rigid rules of swordplay. Love the movies, but rarely watch them because I have always hated seeing Raquel Welch's character [damn this CRS! I can't remember her name right now] being killed. Loved her in this, she was perfect for the role.
Ah, only Porthos could find a new way to disarm himself!
@@nunyabidniz2868 Constance
@@peternickle1884
And she always too many clothes on 😖
Tyrone Power fenced from a very young age. Him and Basil Rathbone were known as the best fencers in Hollywood. Tyrone Power would have fenced Errol Flynn in a box according to Basil Rathbone.
I enjoyed your commentary and analysis of a classic Hollywood sword fight. I understand that Mr. Rathbone said that one of the best he ever came across was Danny Kaye. I hope you can review their fight in the movie, "The Court Jester", at some time in the near future!
Good suggestions. I think that the scene would have been great even if the fencing wasn't. I hope that he gives it a thought.
The "pellet with the poison" routine was and is still funny to this day. Nowadays, clever humor has been replaced by crass humor/fart jokes.
Clearly the distancing is to help prevent actual injury during what is a very fast, intense and potentially slightly unpredictable fight (in the event of someone going wrong, at least) but I think the closing of distance as the fight progresses is perhaps calculated - they're ramping up the pressure on each other and that translates directly to the intensity of the fight for the viewer, which builds and builds. Also, the use of modern fencing swords allows it to be as fast (and cinematic) as it is. Look also at Rathbone's fight with Errol Flynn in The Adventures of Robin Hood... The swords they're using are - visually, at least - right for the period, but clearly are *far* lighter and are being used in pretty much exactly the same way as here - very fast, Olympic style fencing. Impossible with real versions of those swords, but nonetheless very exciting, and highly cinematic.
Fred Cavens, the fight choreographer on this movie, also worked on the Zorro Disney tv series with Guy Williams (Zorro) and Britt Lomond (Capitan Monastario), both actors having previously learned fencing at Aldo Nadi's school (their skill and ready fight chemistry won them the parts, though they only knew competition fencing and had to re-learn screen fencing).
I don't know if Cavens did the same on this film 17 years earlier, but on the Disney production the actors used sabre guards with epee blades; because the epees were a heavier, stiffer blade, they were less likely to whip around during engagement and accidentally hit an actor. Even so, Guy accidentally cut Britt above the eyebrow during their very first take (the makeup artists were terrified they would give Britt blood poisoning if they covered the cut with powder :P) An actor playing villain-of-the-week was also injured during an improvised duel scene; the button on the end of Guy's blade hit the actor in the eye just barely, lifting the lens and causing copious bleeding, luckily no deeper damage. Some of the blades were sharp and not tipped with buttons, so the mook of the episode could be disarmed and have their blade go flying to end up stabbed into a plywood sheet on the wall of the set.
Basil Rathbone was twice the British Army Fencing Champ
And a well played Sherlock, he's the one that started the "Elementary my dear Watson"
@@chadfalardeau3259 That was in the stage play first.
I didn't know that, thank you for the info
It looks like this fight scene had a huge influence on the two duels in The Princess Bride. From the way they were twirling their swords to the climb to higher ground. The only thing Zorro was missing was the witty repartee, but I guess that the dialogue in The Princess Bride during those scenes weren't too dissimilar, just more comdeic.
Matt, for your next movie fight review you should do the modern Zorro movie that featured Antonio Banderas, Catherine Zeta-Jones, and Anthony Hopkins.
Second that
I never thought being a Zorro fan that Hannibal Lecter would be playing the older original Zorro. He did a wonderful job and brought great compassion to the character. Originally it was supposed to be Raul Julia as the older Zorro, he was quite a swordsman, and Andy Garcia as his protege. However, Andy Garcia was committed to another movie at the time, and unfortunately Raul Julia passed away.
The Antonio vs Catherine zeta jones fight! So many dreams based off that scene
@@somethingsomethingsomethingdar lol
if for no other reason than so we can see a young Catherine Zeta-Jones sword fighting...
As a theatre director, actor and fight choreographer I try to keep the actors safe. 🤺 Keeping them out of each other's reach is a way to do that. Personally I get them to start the attack from a distance where the other would be hit without a parry and then the defender will either dodge, or move in so that the most dangerous part of the opponent's blade is passed them, or move out of reach... as would happen in a real fight. This way it is only when the attack is finished that they are out of range, so the attack is made in range.💪 Also I get the attacks to actually aim for the target and it is through moving, partying, doing and some slight alterations to the execution of the cuts that the actor are kept safe, while maintaining the illusion of violence. Unless they are exchanging some blows without moving their feet in order to get some specif effect, in this case they stay out of reach. 🤔
Stage fight is meant to have a component of entertainment in most cases and must keep the actors safe, even though they have no protective gear. 🤔 Thus, you get longer sequences than you would get in a real fight and you must make some concessions to safety and narrative. We are not gladiators. 😅
Oh, by the way. From the 26th to the 28th of February 2021 the AAI (Académie d'Arms International) is hosting another World Stage Fencing Championship, this time at Puy du Fou, a theam park in France. You may find it interesting.
Any link for this World Stage Fencing Championship? I'm interested but I don't find any reference on Google.
Amazing! The series of disengagements, at one point Zoro did double or even triple circular 6th (or 3rds for a sable) to avoid the blade, and at the end masterfully avoided the parries! But never forget, fencing was thought at schools and universities at the time. The distance thingy was done on purpose i guess to change the dynamics of the fight, from the initial 'cool' stage to the more dramatic 'in your face' ending, which seems fine... comparing to the modern 'zoro' this is a work of art.
Nice that there's no overblown orchestral score drowning out the action, which was usual for films of the period, just the sound of clashing blades.
Good sides of sport sabers and out of distance: much safer for actors in case of any mistake during practicing or filming. No stunts, no any kind of protection ("chainmail" made out of gray wool, something beneath it)... much less margin of error allowed compared to fight in Ivanhoe with Liz Taylor.
Those down the line shots are still better than the jump cuts and shaky cameras we have now.
Ah, the capitan's blade is not so firm, eh... was Diego really making the implied insult I think he was, here?
I think he was...
If so, the reply, 'Still firm enough to run you through!' takes on a whole other meaning.
@@CMwright89 A kinky one at it...
> was Diego really making the implied insult I think he was, here?
Probably not. Both were married during the filming. The characters, maybe. Getting things right up to the Code was always a game.
Movies used to be way more clever and subtle (sometimes) than this modern crap they serve us these days.
(I guess they fear that most of the "dumb masses" wouldn't get the joke, which i fear could be true, imo.)
My favourite Zorro fight is actually in the Disney series where he is fighting for his life in his Don Diego de la Vega identity. So he had to parry every attack while flailing around to appear like he is a terrible swordsman. It is really quite impressive choreography.
Guy William's was a wonderful Zorro....Antonio Banderas grew up watching this Zorro, and wanted to somewhat model his character after Williams.
Is that the series with Guy Williams (of Lost in Space fame)?
"You are the luckiest man alive!"
"The luckiest swordsman alive!"
its a great fight as he has to make his flailing look awkward and comedic and yet be effective.
You know, I have to say, how it ends, that was damned good. I mean, really damned good.
Not just how it closed the distance, but that end with that single, sharp clean thrust. When it came down to it, the better swordsman just ended it. No monologue how they're superior, just done.
I might have to watch this movie in full.
Basil Rathbone btw. was a 2 Time Army Fencing Champ... iirc in that time quite a few actors were seasoned fencers.
Basil Rathbone was absolutely stunning on screen and was truly ruthless acting and intimidating.
@@mallardtheduck406 Which is why I like this so much.
He brought that, after seeing the cut, he knew he had to end it. And then it was over.
No unnecessary blade play, showing offing, no fake defeat to win, no unnecessary blood.
Just ended it.
Assuming I'm talking about the right guy. I'm yet to have the wake up brew.
@@leonpeters-malone3054 Basil Rathbone is the bad guy here:) And yes, I'd defo recommend seeing the whole film. I think it's still one of the best superhero movies.
@@antoinemonks4187 Thanks for the recommendation, I'll try to pick it up soon. This one, I'll have to keep in the collection.
I love the movie reviews, and this one touched on a movie that was one of my favorites when i was a kid. This, and the Adventures of Robin Hood, I always eagerly awaited to be shown on TV (no video rentals in the 70s). Great job Matt.I agree with Erik that the distance is forgivable due to safety concerns. But this was an exciting duel to watch (Basil Rathbone never fails to impress). I have read that the difference between sport and stage fencing is that stage fencers are trying to hit the opponents sword, while the sport fencer is just trying to hit the opponent. Would you say that is a true statement?
". . . I always eagerly awaited to be shown on TV (no video rental in the 70s)."
Or 60s, when I also waited eagerly for the TV showings of these classics!
in this scene i always felt like the early part of the fight was much more a formal duel in the minds of both fighter, so i'm okay with the less than realistic distances. But then as the fight goes on and you can clear see both characters are feeling less and less gentlemanly, they get rougher and more intent on actually hurting each other (in the context of the plot). But then from a dramatic point of view that also makes this scene kinda' awesome, it's pretty good story telling through a sword fight as opposed to just being a sword fight.
That is a good observation...the reason for that is that they are both sizing each other up, looking for weaknesses & opportunities...
Together with Robin Hood, Zorro is my childhood hero. Still love fencing sabres and bow & arrow :-)
Wonderful video! This film duel inspired me to become a college saber fencer in the late 1970/early 1980s. I got quite good and faced a number of world class sabreurs, notably world champions Pal Gerevich of Hungary and Michel Maffei of Italy. Of course, they both crushed me, but I still had my moments and I placed in a number of US tournaments). An interesting aspect of The Mark of Zorro duel is most often when Tyrone Power's back is to the camera (in the fancier parts of the scene) he is doubled by Albert Cavens, an actual swordsman, who was the son of the scene's choreographer, Fred Cavens. It is Albert who lunges into the bookcase, and Albert who spears Rathbone at the end. You can get a glimpse of Albert's face at 11:11. All of these decades later I still adore this scene. No music, no leaping on parapets and furniture, just an indoor fast paced fight scene in close quarters that packs an emotional wallop.
Not only is there a nod to Zorro in the movie Bruce Wayne went to, but Batman's cape, cowl and other character points were influenced by Zorro. Who knows perhaps we can explain the swords away like Batman's gear as ultra tech funded by Don Diego's fortune. :P
Didn't Basil Rathbone also play Sir Guy of Gisbourne in the Robin Hood movie. It's been years since I seen that film but the sword fighting looked similar if I recall.
Yes
Yes, and he was excellent in it as well!
And a bunch more villainous swash bucklers (typically without an actual buckler, of course) in at least 10 films.
He also fought Errol Flynn in Captain Blood, and he had a fight with Danny Kaye in The Court Jester. But the only time Basil Rathbone ever won a movie fight was in 1936's Romeo and Juliet, in which he played Tybalt and killed Mercutio.
@@Blokewood3 Very good, I couldn't remember where he had won, but I knew he did, at least once!. I believe he also fought and wone (single stick) in one of the old Sherlock Holmes adventures???
I don’t think I had ever seen this before! Wow!!! Definitely one of the all-time best movie sword fights!
I would love to see an analysis of Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone from “Robin Hood”.
Probably the same as this: th-cam.com/video/1Y5fmah5pIg/w-d-xo.html I don't actually like the Robin Hood fight much but I'm guessing Matt's big historical criticism would be that they're using medieval arming swords as if they were Victorian sabres.
@@Robert399 "Welcome to Sherwood!" Yeah, Robin of Locksley didn't go swinging around on vines much in any of the literary versions of the story I've encountered, either... ;-)
@@nunyabidniz2868 Or bouncing on hidden trampolines either.
Robert R Thank you for sharing the video and your critique. All I know about the fight is that I “think” the lunge was an anachronism.
Or any of the fights from Captain Blood if you want to keep the Errol Flynn theme. For a change Basil Rathbone and Danny Kaye in "The Court Jester"
Excellent. You’ve rightly praised the actors’ fluency. I’d also commend the director and editor, for trusting the actors. They let Rathbone and Power go at it, without countless rapid edits or deceptive close-up shots. This is closer to HK choreography and cinema than modern Hollywood.
Great choice to show the details and distinctions... congrats. also, those cinematographers really understood photographic compression and set dynamics. Great stuff.
This entire film holds up so well. I saw it was on the Disney + service and watched it for the first time and absolutely loved it. The coreography and stunts were so well done.
Basil Rathbone, how can you get a better name than that?????????
I admit, it's Bad-Ass!!!
@@mallardtheduck406 hes up there with Max Planck and Magnus ver Magnusson as living up to a bad-ass name.
I mean...Tyrone POWERS isn't impressive?
Rasil Bathbone
Sounds like a Bond villain name. I love it.
Ah, Basil Rathbone, the best swordsman in Hollywood. Overshadowed by him being an even better villain. Poor guy had to take the fall for worse fencers all the time.
I came upon a colorized version of this fight after watching the banderas zorro fights. After rathbone swung at the first candle i got excited but when the actual fight started i was completely blown away. The fake distance does nothing to hide their obvious skill. Best fencing scene ive seen hands down.
The fight in the old movie was more a duel, than a selfdefence fight. In TH-cam i have seen some time ago a number of french newsreels from the 1900s to 1960s showing duels, often with the name of the opponents, also an italian newsreel from the interwar time, so we can see the real duel fencing. But as far as i know, there had been some differences of rules in the different countries. A german nobleman, visitung the south of USA and the north of Mexico in the 1850s saw a machete duel of two mexicans , but on US soil. He wrote, the men cut each other, but only not so deep wounds, because in Mexico not so deep cuts are not so hard punished. Also a in a movie arround 1940 ( The life and death of captain Blimp??) , i have forgotten the correct name, contains a duel scene between a german and a british ( or US) officer. A swedish officer was the referee , who told the rules. And , i am german, but no fencer. There are in TH-cam clips of two german black and white movies, which contain german accademic fencing, which is basicly a ritualized duel. One of the movies is , Der Untertan' made about 1950 and the other one is from the 1930s , ( attention Propaganda!) , when i remember corect, the name is ,Hans Westmar, einer von uns.' In the comments of those clips there are comments of current/alive academic fencers, which say , either they fought before 1950 in a different style than now, or the producers/actors simply did not know academic fencing.
6:53 This is was a pretty cool little optical effect for the candle slice.
I think it might be an actual scratch onto the film. I'm not sure about that, though.
@@VideoMask93 That's true. Slicing the film (2 frames?) would be economical. Either way it works perfectly.
@@VideoMask93 Lol. No. It was intentional. The actor swung his sword to make it look like it hit the candle and they added that effect in post. BTW, scratches don't go all the way through the film in case you thought that.
@@mightisright I was definitely thinking an intentional scratch for the effect. That'd be one hell of a coincidence if it was an accident!
Since you're doing movie swordfights again, please do the monastery fight from The Three Musketeers (1973) with Michael York.
I forget, is that the one with Christopher Lee as Rochefort? He was a great actor and amazing swordsmen if memory serves.
@@stefanfilipovits21 that's the one
@@jakubfabisiak9810 id loooooove to see that get a scholagladiatoria review!
Thanks much for this walk down Memory Lane! El Zorro was one of my heroes growing up and this is the first fencing scene I had ever seen.
One of my all time favorite movie swordfights!
I love how much better the 1940 Audio is compared to Matt's new mic setup lol
I feel like they ramped the fight up in a very deliberate way:
"This is what you expect from a film" - side-on out of distance exchange of blows, but showing better skill with the swords than most.
"This makes it look better" - still out of distance, but on top of the superior swordsmanship, they use camera angles which disguise the range issues.
"But this is what a *REAL* movie can do!" - closing in and showing off skill within a range where either fighter could actually get hurt if they screw up.
The close distance fighting you mentioned toward end of fight was allowed because Tyrone Power's double was the son of the choreographer and an excellent fencer. Rathbone was a competitive fencer who did all his own bladework. Between the two of them, they did the more complex and 'at distance' parts.
These 2 learned fencing at a young age, power learned at 6 and was taught by his mom while rathbone was a champion fencer.
Rathbone's beat-double' at 11:29 is a thing of beauty....so small and from the SHOULDER rathe than the wrist....amazing control.
I like the way Rathbone;s character prepares himself with a bit of stretching. It is little details like this that convince you that he knows what he is doing.
Please do Scaramouche next.
#1- Cardio
#18- Limber Up
I think in this case the open measure in the first shot is meant - combined with the specific moves used - to show the two combatants sizing one another up. As such I feel that although it's worth pointing out, it's also forgivable as part of the narrative of the scene. Later on, then the characters are committing more the the duel, the camera takes pains to always foreshorten the the distance between them and hide that they are out of measure.
This is definitely one of the finest sword fights in western cinema - possibly one of the greatest ever - not only because it is so technically skilled, but because it also communicates a great narrative within itself whilst advancing the plot. With barely any dialog we watch Captain Pasquale begin contemptuous of Don Diego Vega, then become more and more desperate as he realises he is outmatched and about to die. However in defeating Captain Pasquale Don Diego undoes himself, as witnessing the duel reveals to Don Luis that Don Diego is actually Zorro, leading to his capture.
Great stuff.
Hey, that was amazing! I have very much appreciated your remarks. Let me enjoy even more the details of the movie. Not at all disappointed regarding the kind of sword they have used. Prob no one not so closely acquainted to fencing and history would have noticed it, imho. As a long term "pirate movies" lover, for me this one is the best fencing duel I've ever seen. Still remember my first impressions as a teen ager when I saw it the first time. Still now, my skin goes goose bumps. So well coreographed and the camara work is amazing too keeping the constant feeling of threat, in spite of the "covering" for the bigger distance between the fighters. Camera's usually abuse it by taking a shot from only one of the fighters fencing against whatever he's fencing (his shadow, maybe). Moreover, in this scene we always see both fencer giving and parrying hits what gives it a more deep sense of the fighting. They also do not abuse the use of jumpings and other acrobatic resources film makers use to use at that time. Besides both actors show they are skilled on what they are doing what conveys a sense of "reality" to the fight.
Another aspect i'd like to highlight is the absolute absence of music/sound effects. By todays standards, they'd have surelly and unfortunatelly put some Gun's'Roses or other totally out of plaace heavy metal music (hey I love HM but, not at all times) in the background in a stupid supposition that it'll add to the action. Sooo lame! Besides, no need for CGI or special effects either!
So, as I stated in the very beginning the best sword fight/coreography/camera work in cinema, imho.
How about Basil Rathbone and Danny Kaye in "The Court Jester"?
The legend I heard about that was that Kaye had no fencing experience but his natural ability was such that the older Rathbone had trouble keeping up with him.
@@matthewbaugh5560 Yeah, that's what I've heard. I can believe it, since Danny Kaye got his start as a dancer (so the footwork would have come relatively easily for him).
@@matthewbaugh5560 As great as he was, Basil Rathbone was in his 60s during that fight and wasn't as fast as he used to be. For a few of the really fast exchanges the fight director stood in as Rathbone's double.
@@matthewbaugh5560 Fact is that Danny Kaye had a reputation for being able to do, or quickly learn, virtually anything he wanted to do.
I love this movie. It started my life long obsession with swords when my grandfather showed it to me when I was 3. Wore a mask and cape everywhere I went until I was 6 or 7 haha.
Every time I see the cliche face-to-face sword bind, I just want to yell "annnnnd... kiss!"
(Two seconds in) OOOOH my FAVORITE MOVIE SWORD DUEL OF ALL TIME! Thank you Matt, we are truly spoiled by your munificence!
Love your channel!! I always watch your videos on a particular piece before I do a video on it LOL.
Fred Cavens, the master fencer who choreographed this fight designed it to take place in the confines of one room and to make it more realistic rather than the OTT jumping on and over furniture and such like of other movies of the day. With that in mind, and knowing a little of period sword fighting, I feel the argument that at the start they were 'feeling' each other out makes logical sense. These two men had never crossed swords but Zorro knew the reputation of the Captain, he would want to size his opponent up first before risking lunges which could leave him open.
Someone needs to get onto directing a movie solely for the purpose of having a sword duel in it where they have a classic face-to-face sword bind, and for one of the characters to start monologuing only for the other dude to punch them square in the face and ruin the moment. Instant classic.
It doesn't have to be a swordfight, what about that famous scene in the good, the bad, and the ugly?
Sort of along the lines of Indiana Jones settling matters with the swordsman in "Raiders"?
@14:53 The filmmakers are deliberately building the tension and portraying a sense of the fight becoming less controlled and more desperate to reach a conclusion, as time goes on and fatigue sets in.
Watching Zorro movies as a kid is why I became a fencer (modern Olympic) as an adult. Most male fencers I knew said the same sort of thing.
I have huge respect for stage fencers, it's way more dangerous than people realize. Yeah yeah, they're mostly fencing out of distance. But mistakes happen, I can't count how many times in a choreographed lesson I've stepped forward when I should have stepped back and got nailed. Embarrassing with a Kevlar jacket and rigid steel mask, potentially fatal without it.
I read that, in the old studio system, contracted actors were made to take lessons in fencing, horsemanship, and other skills they would need for roles between movies.
Very interesting. Great video. In spite of it's flaws this is still one of my top three favorite sword fight scenes in a movie.
Seeing this movie on VHS when i was a child was almost certainly a huge influence in my interest in swordsmanship.
Basil Rathbone was a really phenomenal fencer and Tyrone Powers worked incredibly hard to prepare for the role and really impressed Rathbone with his fencing. But they did sub in the fencing master for Tyrone Powers a couple of times in this scene. As good as he was, Powers still wasn't good enough for all of the fight choreography in this scene (but Rathbone was :)) If you notice, in some of the sections where the distance is closer, Diego's back is to the camera. Also during the final lunge...
The dramatic blade lock you keep seeing where the characters push against each other is referred to as a "corps-a-corps." When being trained in stage combat for single sword and rapier & dagger this is actually a required move on the final skill proficiency test.
Corps-a-corps actually refers to body/body contact, at least in Olympic fencing.
@@samsignorelli Yes. Because the two combatants have to push against each other, that's probably why stage combat uses that term.
Excellent film - I've only seen it once, but it holds up despite being a full 80 years old. The sheer fluid athleticism of the combat is one of its great strengths.
The equipment and techniques may be anachronistic and filmic, but the speed and the framing helps it to feel weighty and real.
I never watched this 1940 old version but I really love the Antonio Banderas's Zorro movies.
I love his first shell guard rapier with the brown leather grip...that was an accurate sword to that time frame
I like both movies.
The most authentic was the George Harrison version...
Yei!!! The Zorro is one of my favorite heroes of all times!!
This scene never gets old. I'm guessing (and this is only a guess as my memory is fuzzy) that the exchanges that were in distance, particularly where you can't see Mr. Power's face, is where a double was used. Mr. Rathbone didn't need one, as he was the more experienced fencer, so I imagine all parties concerned were comfortable enough to risk it. IIRC, Mr. Rathbone also preferred those military style sabers.
The double in the longer shots is Albert Cavens, the son of the legendary choreographer for this fight, Fred Cavens.
Tyrone Power's mother, Maria, was an Olympic-level fencer herself and had given him some relatively basic-level training when he was younger.
For context, Power was 26 and Rathbone 48 at the time of release of this film.
Matt, I love you and I love your videos. I also prefer sponsorships to normal youtube ads because they're always fully skippable, and all the money goes to the content creator; google has plenty of money. All that said, two full minutes is kind of crazy to me. Sure, it's almost as easy to skip a two minute spot as a 15 second one; that's not really the issue. It just blows my mind that anyone is expected to sit through all that. I don't say all this to say "don't," cause really, good on ya. Get that money. I guess I'm just venting.
I'm contractually obliged to cover certain things in these ads - I try to keep them as brief as possible while still meeting the agreement.
I love this movie, I own this movie and blame it and the Adventure of Robin Hood on my love of history, sword fighting and all things fantasy.
Basil Wrathbone was one of the best swordsmen in Hollywood during the swashbuckler era.
"The captain's blade is not so firm"
"Firm enough to run your through"
...is that a penetration joke?
More context is needed
Oh, you should watch the full movie. The whole thing is loaded with sly remarks and innuendos. Powers plays his non-Zorro side like a complete ponce, like almost flaming, as he wants to seem harmless while he collects information about what is going on.
It's a meme in classic Spanish theatre that an effete or cultured gentleman may actually turn out to be the most dangerous, while the machos talk loud but don't have as much skill in the end. In one of the great ones (Fuenteovejuna), the deadliest swordsman in the region is a quiet country grape farmer with fine manners and a dry sense of humor.
A LOT of shots in this fight were not straight at all HAHAHAHA
Ithey did very well for that time ,actually name two actors from our days who could do better .Amazing fight one of my favorite
-I have no reason to letting you live either
-what a pleasant coincidence~
I don't know why, but that killed me
Wasn't Zorro taking place when California still part of Spain? They talk about going back to Madrid, not Mexico City. That makes it more like late 1700's or early 1800's.
Thanks, I love it when you review the older movie fight scenes
Poor Rathbone, because of his look he was always cast as the villain and therefore always had to lose to the hero, played a man who was a much inferior swordsman. Much like Lee Van Cleef in Westerns, where he was usually the best gunman but had not the look of a movie hero and so must lose in the end.
Well, at least he was a great Sherlock Holmes, where he could always win there ;)
This duel is one of my favourite duels simply because of the killing blow, you see Zorro completely in the Captain's headspace and just toying with him at that point, it's almost silent save for the sound of whirring feints and disengages.
I understand you criticism of this fight being a "staged fight" but even as staged fights go this has one of the best feels imo. As you concede, this is one of the fights where they actually start committing to lunges at the fight progresses, showing that after some initial non-committal swordplay they get the feel of each other enough to begin more committed, lethal moves. To me, this narrative of the fight culminates in that killing move I mentioned earlier where Diego is shown to be so confident of what Esteban is going to do that he goes in for a series of feints that span an eternity (which must certainly seem insulting, condescending and horrifying to the Capitan) before landing a very clean killing blow after getting through all that defensive bladework. It's stage fencing of course, but as you say, it's stage fencing with a narrative and executed by highly competent fencers.
The bladework in particular is one of the highlights that really sell this fight, there isn't a lot of big, committed swings or movements you'd get in modern swordfights, it's all the honed, minute movement that tells you both of these gentlemen would lunge straight for the kill as soon as one of them knew they had a clean path over the other. Once again, these sorts of movements are only possible to be captured on screen because both duelists have fencing backgrounds. A lot of fluff and unnecessary sequences are added because this is a staged fight, but as staged fights go, this one feels a lot tighter.
One thing I might suggest about the distance is the factor of the drama of the story. In a real duel or fight the goal is usually to take out the opponent as quickly as possible to minimize risk to yourself. In a movie, the goal is to put on a performance, indeed a character may even want to put on a show for other characters sometimes. This could explain why they spend so much time testing each other before getting serious.
Pretty sure the reason why they're in distance in the latter part of the fight but they weren't earlier is a filmography one. By having them closer together it increases the threat and tension. The fight starts out relaxed and 'safe' and gets more and more desperate as it goes on
Earliest possibility is 1780 when the pueblo of Los Angeles was founded. I think the Spanish period ended around 1820.
I totally get what you're always saying about distance, however it does make sense to me that historical weapons fights, at least duels, would often be "out of distance" for relatively large portions of the fight, especially at the beginning.
Watch almost any match of almost any combat sport and you'll see that they tend to be out of distance a lot, especially for the so-called "feeling out process," which I acknowledge that you acknowledged in this video.
That said, I can imagine that making it a life or death situation would increase a lot people's tendency to stay out of range until they saw a good opening.
Given that a relatively light sword strike to the outstretched sword arm could be a game changer I imagine that the feeling out with swords involves more distance than with punches and kicks.
I don't know anything, just guessing and pondering.
Thanks for all these video, it's fun to learn about sword and such.
I am so glad you got around to doing this. I'm not a fencer but this is such a wonderful scene in my opinion.
I mean, this is Basil Rathbone, generally acknowledged as the best swordsman actor in all Hollywood history. This and his scene in The Adventures of Robin Hood are two of the best swordplay scenes in all of cinema.
Are there any existing films of Basil fencing competitively? (Did he ever sword fight in his roles as Sherlock Holmes?)
Awesome fight! Really dramatic. Now I want to see the whole movie.
Excellent review, as I've come to expect. I so wish you would do a review of the climactic saber duel in 1952's Prisoner of Zenda. I think you would find it right in your wheelhouse. And Granger and Mason happen to be superb...
Yes that's a very fun fight, and closer to military sabre if I remember correctly.
Matt, since we're talking Zorro, I'd love to see you break down the duels in the Mask of Zorro starring Antonio Banderas, Anthony Hopkins, and Catherinr Zeta-Jones.
There's a lot of nice duels in Zorro history to choose from
The way they're undressing before the fight starts is everything. It's the first time in the film either of the characters have taken their opponent seriously, and it's such a great way of showcasing it.
The 1974 TV remake does the same thing. Frank Langella's Zorro and Ricardo Montalban's Pasquale strip down before trying to kill each other. The only difference is that Langella's in full Zorro costume for the fight, and unmasks just before spearing Pasquale.