I felt cheated when I discovered baroque system. In primary schools we only play German because it's "easier". Now I play an alto baroque. Thanks for the video Sarah. Cheers!!
I started out on the German system but decided it will be better to play the Baroque recorder. Must say that moving from the German to the Baroque was very easy.
I wish i could say the same.... My transition is being very hard.... I dont intend to abandon the german system but i want to know both.... But still the baroque is being quite frustrating...
I’m still having a hard time. That being said, 30 years of muscle memory are not easily overcome (even if I barely played in 20 of those years), but I now have access to enoug Soprano and Alto recorders in Baroque fingering that I really should concentrate on that. (Also, new notes we didn’t use in those pieces when I was little to learn, yay!)
I learned the German system in school, when I was 8 years old. They probably thought the F would be easier for young kids. When I got back to playing the recorder a few years ago, I thought myself the baroque recorder after reading about the difference between the two. It took maybe a day or two to get used to the baroque F, and now the German F feels weird.
Imagine buying a German soprano recorder, watching this video two days later and agreeing that the Baroque recorder is probably a better choice as it's more future-proof despite the odds of playing other types of recorders with the limitations being close to zero. Guess who's going to get a Baroque recorder?
When I had recorder lessons as a kid, my parents bought me a baroque recorder by mistake (they didn’t know, there were different ones) only to find out, that the entire class played the German system and they had to buy me another one, because it sounded weird and to be honest, 6-year-old-me was too confused playing differently than everyone else. 16 years later, I bought myself a beautiful baroque tenor and I am very, very happy with that.
I started playing the recorder in primary school and I only knew about the Baroque fingerings when I watched your videos about a year ago. Then I just realised that in school, we were taught the German system. I wanted to try the Baroque fingering so I bought a new recorder. It was definitely challenging to do the F and F sharp - I kept doing the German fingering. But with practice, I feel more comfortable now playing on my Baroque recorder. I also realised the curved windway sounds way better than the straight windway. Your videos are very encouraging and a great place to learn. Thank you, Sarah! 😊
I got one at a thrift shop not knowing what German fingering even was and thought everything was just baroque. So I thought my recorder was damaged when it didn't sound right.
Someone I know bought my daughter a German one, and explained it away as recorders being unreliable. This was a person who also played flute, so... I corrected the situation, and even though it's easier to start for her little fingers, I practice on my tenor with her, so she sees that daddy has to stretch, too, and can still practice the same e,f,g,f,e without too much difficulty. She loves her nightly music lessons, and she's learning the names of the notes. Yes, she's on a soprano, so she's really associating fingering with the notes, which baffles her if I play alto; she hears the same note, but see me finger it differently. However, she's become used to it, is developing her ear, and we're starting to work on the staff (treble clef). Thank you so much for this video! Btw, I love the flute and the sax, and I do play the practice chanter, so I get different fingerings, but I also play guitar, and use different tunings all the time, so, variety, right? Ta!
When I started on the recorder, I didn’t know there were two “flavours”. I thought the difference was just having double holes. When I restarted again with a good brand recorder and with proper baroque bore, I was determined my F’s were like they ought be. In a few months my F’s sounded great, but I had developed a tennis arm. According to AAFAB in Utrecht, this is a typical problem with recorder players. So take it easy when you switch to baroque. There are a few therapists online who have a website with exercises so you can train your right arm (there are more tennis players than recorder players). Start slow, and with a small recorder. If needed, you can use a thumbrest. Two or three times a day practicing 5 minutes is better that 30 minutes in one go. Don’t worry, soon you’ll be able to use your middle finger like it should be... ;)
Learned German system in school - we're talking about mid 90s -, never ever knew there were different flutes NOR another fingering system altogether. Only recently, when I decided to get back playing an instrument (I was in a wind band which I dropped out from due to time constraints), deeming my saxophone too bulky, and a concertina too expensive to just give it a try, I picked the recorder as my "main" instrument. So I got back playing the "old, boring, classic" German Soprano. Had bought an Alto too, years ago. Lovely. Wanted a Tenor, though, and couldn't find one with German fingering. Buying a "cheap" Soprano with Baroque fingering to "test" the system, accidentally got a Sopranino (because Amazon descriptions, very often, are translated extremely badly by people who have no idea about the topic they are translating). So, I decided to get a full set of recorders (in ABS/plastic, 'cause I can rough them up and be less concerned about maintenance), from sopranino to bass, but... they do not seem to exist with German fingering! So I started learning Baroque. After 30 years playing German, must say Baroque is counterintuitive on some passages (going from E to F, as to say my main issue, where German still feels superior), but many melodies became easier, and even high notes feel... easier to play. Now that I got to know it, I do think Baroque *is* someway superior to German... I just have to re-set 30 years of "bad" habits - and get my new full set of recorders!
Thank you Sarah for an intelligent and concise explanation of this matter. I played recorder (Baroque fingering) as a child & adolescent, and fell out of playing at that time. I'm working at picking it up again. Now, as a science teacher retiree, I find myself with little formal musical training working part-time in a parochial school and leading the kids (pre-school to 8th grade) in singing and music appreciation (no one else to do it - talk about the proverbial deer in the headlights!). The principal wants me to teach our 2nd & 3rd graders basic recorder. A generous donation of Baroque recorders by Chicago's classical WFMT radio (Baroque type) is making this possible. Dire predictions on-line about why German fingering is necessary for teaching children now do not faze me. I'm subscribing to your channel, will surely watch more. Thanks for your info!
Just discovered your channel and I want to tell you that this video in particular has saved my life! I learnt the Baroque system in school (though of course was never told that) and only discovered that there were alternative ways to play F a few years ago when I started as a primary music teacher. But I never understood the issues about the different systems etc. Only my ears kept telling me that "hey something is not quite right with the tuning of this new fingering". I kept teaching my children anyway because they seemed to understand faster with the "easier" fingering. But now I really have to examine the kinds of recorders they're buying and make sure everyone stays Baroque! Thank you so much! You're very entertaining and engaging!
I think the German system was never really designed to play much more than play in C major/ A minor. It was designed to be the first contact with an instrument.
The German/modern fingering is more logical. The fingerings are different, and if you know well your stuff it's not difficult to play #/b by playing with 2/3 covered hole.
At school I had one year of recorder lessons when I was 9. It was a german style recorder and of course I didn't get far so it sufficed. When I was 23 I had enough money to take lessons myself and I transferred to a baroque system recorder. It was very easy to adjust. I never stopped playing after that, still do. It is a wonderfull instrument. But now I also have started to play the violin, I think it is so easy if all the notes would be in the right order, like on a string. No fork grips! IDEAL!
Thank you for making me realise my sixième (collège, years 11 to 14 usually) music teacher made us learn German fingering on Baroque recorders. It did take trying to remind myself of the F's heavy Belle et Sebastien main theme for realising as well. Press F to pay respects
Sarah, if you're interested in my opinion: I think one should consider the German recorder an instrument of its own. Related to the original recorder, but not the same. Just like the tin whistle is not the same as a recorder, even though they are both tubes with finger holes and a fipple you blow into. Actually, in addition to the large fourth hole, Harlan's recorders had another thing in common with whistles: They were originally transposing instruments. The first recorder Harlan had made was an alto in E. Later, recorders in D and A were added. Until a German edict (Nazi German, actually) forbade the making of any new recorders pitched in anything but C and F. Hindemith's recorder trio for the Eutiner Musiktag is written for three transposed Harlan-type recorders. Which were better quality back then. Not only did Hindemith play one himself when the trio was performed for the first time, Friedrich von Huene also praised the original Hedwiga, which had a German fingering, and how well the third octave F sharp on the Hedwiga alto sounded. As you know, this note is difficult to play even on a recorder with baroque fingering as it requires covering the bell with one's knee. Or some kind of stand, whatever.
I thought I had a baroque recorder! It turns out, after 4 years of playing it, it’s a German! THAT’S why my tone was always off! Thanks for the wonderful vid!
Same!! I just bought 2 recorders since my old recorder was old and it was a German. But im a pretty quick learner and im pretty sire I can get used to baroque.
Thank you for this informative video. I’ve always purchased baroque for my students but considered buying German this year thinking it would be easier for them but your video changed my mind! Thank you!!!
Sarah - charming as usual and the video is full of lots of "useful" information ;) Love the summary "You've taken one problem and just shifted it somewhere else". Brilliant!
Actually, if one isn't trying quite as hard as Sarah is to offer even-handed opinions, what the German system does is to take a single problem that isn't really very problematic at all and shift it to at least three other places in such a way that it becomes a significantly worse problem in all of them.
Don't hang me out to dry, but I play a lot of folk music, mostly in the keys of D and E minor. So I converted my recorder to open fingering. Still sounds like a recorder but plays like a tin whistle, plus of course it's got a lead-in note which is useful. So I can see the sense of the German system just like I can see the sense of Albert system clarinets.
Hi, This sounds interesting. I have a recorder with German fingering that I would like to be able to play like a tin whistle. Would you mind sharing how you converted yours, please?
Birgit Nora Gourani, if you have a soprano german fingering recorder, by permanently closing with a tape the thumb hole and the upper first hole (left index finger hole), you can play it as a tin whistle using the rest of the 6 holes.
Thank you so much for this video! I (like so many others) learnt the recorder in school (back in the 1990s), using the german style. My step-daughter plays the french horn, but is also now learning the recorder at school. I had a go on it and couldn't work out why the scale sounded slightly off, then realised she has a baroque recorder. Until now, I never even knew there two different styles!
Similarly, I've seen Native American-style flutes, six holes (no thumb hole). These are each tuned to the Pentatonic Minor scale in a particular key--fun for improv, but very inflexible.
I've made a few of those and oh dear! I've never really improvised anything before, but with those it's so easy to sound good. And that newly acquired confidence to improvise carried on to the recorder. And hopefully I can bring it to my main instrument as well, the piano. It really pays to learn and play multiple instruments. You pick up skills and knowledge that carries over very well.
Some Native American-style flutes have only five holes and those are ONLY tuned to the pentatonic minor scale, but the ones with 6 holes can be a little more flexible than that--the ring finger on your left hand (3rd hole) is always covered to stay in pentatonic minor, but you can mix it up to make different notes! I've got a really weird one that's tuned to a diatonic major scale...it's basically a whistle that looks like a Native American flute but with less range (only an octave and a half). Trying to figure out what to play on it!
played bassoon. never thought i’d love the recorder so much. and suddenly realizing a bassoon is just a recorder with a reed.................. 🤔. then they added keys. oddly it was you talking about the Eb that made realize this.
I recently started playing recorder and am really enjoying it. I started with a Yamaha soprano (German fingering) and loved the ease of the E F G transitions. Got a German style alto and like it too and it works for me since I generally play in F major, G minor and Bb major on it. I’d be happy to get a baroque alto at some point in the future though
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HAHAHA OF COURSE IT WAS A GUITAR PLAYER!! 😂 (another guitar player here) I had no idea about these two systems, so when I switched from a plastic Yamaha to my new Moeck wooden recorders today, I was so confused and had to figure out new fingerings by trial and error.. Now it all makes sense!! And yay, my new recorders have the baroque system, phew!! Thank you, Sarah!
I think Moeck used to make a German-fingered bass in their Rondo line. At least they still publish a fingering chart for it on their website. And of course back in the day, the Moeck Tujuflöten of all sizes could, I think, be had with either fingering.
Thanks for this video. There's not much in-depth online discussion about German vs Baroque. I was raised a clarinetist by a professional clarinetist and music professor--- and I ended up in the Air Force Band playing clarinet and playing the Alto sax in the dance band---and later teaching clarinet at the university level. The first recorder I picked up was a Hopf soprano with German fingering and of course I was very used to playing the non-forked F like with the clarinet---and so I could move around fast on the thing without using the fork F. With me and my Dad's vast library of clarinet music I started playing all of it on my wooden recorder---you just have to raise the low clarinet notes below middle C up an octave. There's a treasure trove of recorder music in clarinet music!! And plenty of beautiful Duets for Two Clarinets---and easily played on recorder. I upgraded to a Woodi german recorder but really need to get a high quality German recorder---and Moeck makes a couple "professional" models---Flauto Rondo models with german fingering.
German system does match clarinet, sax, flute in that 123|45 to 123|4 is a semitone, but oboe and bassoon have a tone between 123|45 and 123|4. On oboe, it's F♯ (where flute, sax, upper clarinet have F♮) and on bassoon it's B♮ (where lower clarinet has B♭). Bassoon also has cross-fingerings galore, possibly more than other woodwinds, so baroque recorder isn't anything strange. (I ended up playing bassoon in an army band.) I'm sticking with baroque, but understand full well that there is a place for German. I have a soprano and alto Venova (dodgy plastic recorders with sax mouthpieces). They use German fingering, and it drives me crazy!
If you want to eventually move on to flute or oboe, the Baroque/English fingering is very much the right one and most advantageous to learn. Even the Bassoon follows it quite a lot, but watch out for that thumb there. I actually became a pianist and string player after learning the recorder really well, and learning to read music. The recorder is a wonderful, underrated instrument. I stillplay and have a mixture of better plastic and wooden recorders (esoecaiilytenors and trebles)
Well there are a few differences. The German system clarinet is older and is used in Germany and sometimes Austria. Professional players in classical orchestras in Germany and Austria always play on German system clarinets. And there is a third system: the reform boehm
I played soprano recorder in our church recorder orchestra for about 12 years. I started with Baroque recorder and after about ten years moved to German. I think it was only due to Irish whistle, which I started to play at that time. It was more natural to change these two instruments. I do not think F is easier on German or F# (of Fis as we call it) is easier on Baroque. These are just different movements which are of similar dificulty. It is even not so difficult to rebuild one to another with drill and a bit of photoplastic. (Do not try with wooden or expensive recorders. :))
For more than 25 years I had a trio of Moeck Tuju Baroque recorders, Soprano, Treble & Tenor, but could never afford a matching Bass - the only ones appearing on the second hand market were end blown - wrist breakers for me. Finally my wife bought me a matching Bass with a very nice crook head, oblivious of the fact that it was German fingering. However , I quickly realised that as I was going to have to teach my eye-to-finger system to work from the Bass clef anyway, it's actually no problem at all , the only real drawback is that the single F key means I really can't get a bottom F sharp!
I have 2 recorders, one is German and the other Baroque. I must confess I always preferred the German system cause I've been taught with that one... But is is totally true that it has a lot of limitations.
Thank you so much my son is moving up and his teacher said the German fingering is preferred but I can find one in my town. So we are.planning to buy a Yamaha tenor baroque recorder.
OMG all those years as a kid, when I would play the recorder, I instinctively added those fingers you were taking about to fix the tuning, and never realized my recorders were in a non standard tuning! And I'm 40! Well better later than never 😅 Thank you, it was a great video 👍
In 1990 my mother toured a recorder factory in Germany, and she brought back for me a very fine wooden recorder she had purchased at the factory. I loved the gift, but whenever I'd play the recorder the F would be so out of tune I could not stand it. In my mind this instrument must have been a factory reject, so I tossed the recorder. Many times over the coming years my mother would talk about this recorder she had carried all over Europe for me, like it was the most precious gift she had ever given me. I never told her I had tossed it. A few years ago I came to learn that German fingering differed from Baroque fingering,. Doh! I laughed and I cried when I realized I had tossed my most precious gift in vain.
@@amj.composer at one point in my life, I relocated, and all of my worldly possession needed to fit in the bed of a compact pickup truck. Difficult decision were made about what to keep.
In Germany the idea is, that these are for small children to begin on. They usually play simple melodies in Cmajor and tend to avoid the second octave for quite a while. Then if they continue learning, they "graduate" to a "proper" recorder with baroque fingering. So I'm not surprised you can find some models (there are people who will buy them, so why not make them), but not the handmade expensive professional grade instruments, as the people who buy those will have switched anyway.
Hello Sarah, this was a very interesting video. Reading here and there, I get the impression that baroque fingering is always better. The real reason German fingering hasn't disappeared yet is that school teachers can be... let's say "set in their habits". Also, most of them in most schools are not going to teach any recorder tune that is not extremely basic. As a consequence, manufacturers of cheap recorders will always go for the German fingering because it is the one that actually sells. Personally I got rid of my old German soprano all too happily and got my Yamaha 300 instead.
Note that the Trinity recorder exams only allow Baroque recorders to be used. The ABRSM and LCM recorder exams are silent about the types of recorders that can be used.
Indeed it was Edgar Hunt of Trinity who in the 1930s persuaded the German recorder makers to start producing inexpensive English-fingered recorders for use in UK schools. It figures that Trinity would be continue to be very specific on this point, since Hunt worked very hard to oppose the adoption of German fingerings in British schools.
When I was 7 my mother and I learned to play the recorder together (mother and child class). I played on a baroque and she on a German recorder (hers even hadn't double holes) but that was never a problem and I always thought it was just a different system. Until recently, when I started playing again and bought a new recorder (baroque of course).
I had that problem before. Everything began to change when after six years of using the German style, I switched to the barroque one. The first six months were complicated, until I finally began to use the alto recorder and the other ones. The good thing was that I only used the german fingering with my soprano recorder. The confusion was less.
Edgar Hunt (in 'The Recorder and Its Music) suggests that Harlan had erroneously believed that the F should have been in tune with 012345 and "believed that Dolmetch's ear rather inaccurate" (p. 123). The whole German/baroque phenomenon rests on a guitarist who, without knowledge of the recorder, created a system based on "this stupid mistake [and] was the beginning of recorders 'with German fingering', which are still manufactured in large numbers ... except, fortunately, in England" (ibid.). Here in Japan, both systems are used. My child's teacher taught the 012345 fingerings while the kids were using baroque instruments!
We learned to play the Flutophone in grade school and I think the fingering is similar to that of a German recorder. Joy! I found a German recorder (plastic) here in Thailand.
Thank you Sarah for another very informative video. After a bit of research I bought my first recorder last month. I intended get a baroque recorder, but then I fell in love at first sight with the transparent blue plastic Yamaha and the only one available on Amazon was German so I HAD to get that one :-) I wanted something inexpensive and fun, and actually I love it to bits! But I understand your points and you are right of course. My next (alto) will be Baroque though. Looking forward!
@@reeser8 there has been some development.. I annoyed myself with the shrill sound of that soprano and decided to get the Yamaha resin tenor instead. It's wonderful! Like a where have you been my entire life kind of feeling. I'm in love with the sound and feel like practicing all the time! :-)
I am a baroque recorder person, I think basic notes are harder especially F, but if you know how to finger it and know how to keep your fingering properly, you can think it’s easier.
Note: Renaissance style recorders often have a few alternate fingerings you need to use to play in tune. For instance the low F# needs 3 fingers, the C# uses just the thumb, the D uses no fingers (i.e. the fingerings for D is "Drop the recorder"). Some of the notes in the second octave also require additional shading. I have a matched set that was made by Thomas Prescott that uses the same "alternate" fingerings on all sizes so that once you learn the system it works on all of them. My point here is that having to use alternate fingerings is not automatically bad, if you get a return in sound quality out of your investment for the time it takes to learn it.
I'd learned to play recorder in school as a child and no one ever said anything about there being anything but the one style (which was German). I liked playing the recorder, so I did take it a little further than most of the kids. When handed a baroque recorder in high school I did NOT adjust very quickly, I had way too much old (and early) muscle memory for that. But I had taught myself to play whistles in the meantime, and I didn't find it confusing at all like you suggest, that there's a different third down there.
i love to play everything xD i think both fingering systems have positive and negative things, so i use both, i choose the system depending on what im playing... much of the folk and asian repertoires is better to play using the german system while "traditional recorder european repertoire" feels more confortable in the baroque system.... some asian and folk tunes are easier to play in the baroque system and some western pieces are also easier in the german system.... so i dont really focus on the system, but on the aplicability! 😁
I took recorder lessons for about two years in around 1st/2nd grade (don't really remember for how long exactly) and your videos make me wanna pick it up again after not having played it at all in like 11 or 12 years
This actually remind me of my primary school days where learning to play the recorder is an essential part of our music lesson, along with singing certain songs. That was in China and about 20 years ago. What we used were plastic recorders, and those were for the German system, which I had totally forgot or failed to noticed before I watched this! FYI primary schools in China use assigned textbooks so only several sets there, and in one state every single school uses the same thing. (I'd say 2 or 3 sets for the whole country maybe but not very sure). So this means millions of Chinese around my age actually learnt how to play a recorder in primary school to a certain level. I guess who ever designed our music textbook just believe that German fingering should be easier for kids, or maybe they are cheaper. Actually not many can play it properly in my class... Those plastic recorders were used a lot as a sword in fight though as you can imagine XD
I'm getting an Alto Baroque Recorder after trying to play the clarinet. My instructor, who's going to be teaching me it, suggested I switch to the recorder as it's easier to play. My asthma and Bells Palsy makes playing clarinet a bear, so we're gonna see how this new choice works out. Thanks for the videos! Makes for an interesting watch!
Hie Sarah thanks for the informative video. I use a German Yamaha Soprano. There are some alternate fingerings one can use to get well tuned notes. Typical notes are Eb 2nd octave, F# 2nd octave, Bb to C 2nd octave, C#, D, Eb 3rd Octave
Interesting! I was going to say, the problem with the German fingering being "compatible" with folk music instruments is that D diatonic instruments like the Irish whistle require an F# for that fingering which is actually more compatible with Baroque fingering on a Soprano/Descant recorder.
I stand by the opinion that it's mildly useful to have recorders of varying fingering systems around, including the German system. Sometimes not having to fork low F makes easy passages that would otherwise have been very tricky. Sometimes you have a use for an alternate fingering for E in the first and second octaves for the sake of timbral trills, which the German system gives you. I can't speak for any other models, but my Yamaha German soprano can produce a third octave C# without having to cover the bell, which can be used in a trill with the D above. It also has a very pleasant E/G# multiphonic. On the other hand, sometimes you need to trill between G and Ab in the second octave, in which case the baroque way is smoother. Most of the other fingering differences between baroque and German make no difference in my experience, as someone who has played both systems a lot. As for intonation discrepancies, I have found that those exist between any two recorders from the same system, to no particularly lesser degree than they exist between recorders of different systems. I *always* need to listen for the need to make adjustment no matter what I'm playing and what I'm tuning against.
Friedrich von Huene, one of the pioneers of the relaunch of the recorder in the 20th century, pointed out the same: With German fingering, you can play third octaves C# (or F#, in the case of an alto recorder in F) without covering the bell. Third octave F# on an alto is needed for Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 4, which is why Von Huene insisted that the recorders be able to play it. To put it with him: "It [the recorder devised by him] was sufficient for Hindemith, and it was sufficient for us." Maybe the German fingering's bad rep is partially due to the fact that superior quality recorders are no longer built with German fingering. This used to be the case at one point however, the Herwiga, named after recorder maker Herwig, was a gem with German fingering. I hated the recorder I had as a child, a Moeck entry-level soprano with German fingering and no double holes -- and yet we were expected to play pieces with up to four sharps or flats with it. That's not fair.
@@DellaStreet123 I figure the fact that the original rationale for the German system doesn't seem to take the recorder seriously has fed a self-perpetuating cycle where recorderists and recorder makers aren't inclined to take the German system seriously in return.
@@sashakindel3600 This is quite possible. Harlan definitely knew what he did, but decades later he tried to shift blame for the "faulty" German system to the Bärenreiter company, which used to be big in business selling both recorders and sheet music for recorders -- and he kept revising his story over and over again, which makes me think that Peter Harlan might have had the same issues with the truth his brother Veit did.
Back when i wanted to take keyboard/piano lessons, the music-school pushed very hard on getting a year of "Algemene muzikale vorming" (General Musical Development) wich ment learning to reconize measures, learing about different kinds of instruments,.. (and more) and PLAYING THE "Blokfluit" (recorder). And because they expected most of us to go to different kinds of instruments, we used German fingering-style. Those of us that bought the recorder trought the school got one from Yamaha.
Thanks, Sarah. After watching several of these, the question about German vs. Baroque came up naturally. So, how bout this: by "folk music" our friend Peter had in mind mostly tunes in C, which will use F natural a lot more. If you play tunes in G and D (Irish and Scottish, for instance), the F# will be more important. I am watching these instead of practicing; do I get some extra credit anyway?....maybe?
Hi Sara, I have some recorders and transverse flutes. I'm not a musician, just enthusiast, but some years ago I developed a neuritis of the radial nerve in my right forearm (because of diabetes), that made me quit practicing both transverse flute and recorder, i lost more than half of the strengh in my right hand. Now after exercising some years (weightlifting), I recovered most of the gripping strength but loose some fine dexterity, my pinky is still semi paralized. Playing the baroque seminotes is almost imposible, it's a lot easier for me to play a german one. Do you have any advice I could use to start practicing again? Some method that can improve my dexterity step by step, I would be so grateful. I am always learning a lot from your videos, although I am only an aficionado. Great video as always, hugs from Chile!!
Ok Cesar. You have serious right hand weakness. Myfirst suggestion is an old YFL Yamaha flute. vey soft keys and easy to play and cheap. My second suggestion is expensive. Try an oboe - "conservatoire" style. Oboes are actually very easy to "press" the right-hand fingers on, and you don't have to accurate as long as you can get them on, the "pads" and "key system" all do it for you. The compass isn't alot more than the descant recorder, but much easier to find the notes with a poor right hand. If ou want ot persist with the recorder, I suggest, going back to the beginningnand order "Tune a Day" book 2.
@@fluffy_chickadee The right hand on the oboe is easier to press the keys and the little finger is easier too and the position more natural. It's also thinner and easier to hold. The downside is the embouchure and getting decent reeds.Also the notes are the same, high up and low down, but they are NOT on the clarinet.
I am Italian and in schools they use the German system , I started learning the recorder ( I was 14 ) on that system out teacher was British , after many years I picked up the recorder again and learnt the Baroque system , by the way I play jazz ( not on this channel though )
Switching from German system to Baroque recorder actually was very difficult for me, decades later. I had a mental block I think. In America, the "flutaphone" certainly caught the K-6 grade-school teachers.. and I now see them marketed as a "pre-band" instrument. I didn't at the time, but I was only 8 to 11 years old at the time. sigh. The flutaphone certainly fit my small hands at the time, but I wish they would have taught baroque system. A Yamaha y24b is almost the same cost as a flutaphone and related german fingering instruments for children. It even comes in colours.
I just now found out, that my very first childhood recorder is in German fingering. I always was taught the baroque fingering. This cheep old thing actually does sound good. Bit airy and the notes are generally high pitched, but beautifully soft. Only the fingering turns me mad.
Good points. I think one of the reasons why german fingering is still around and sells is because schools around the world prefer it simply because most students (and teachers of course) won't go beyond C mayor and perhaps F mayor at least for a few years - if they have more than a couple of years of music aducation - and probably won't play the recorder again after finishing school, so a linear instrument is easier for that short period.
Thank you. I only play German-style soprano Recorder. It's my 'thing'. It was the only one I could afford that I really liked. Thank you for sending me the link.
I'm still used to the German one but I understand the difficulties that can come from it. I got a handmade plumwood (German) one from a Hungarian flutemaker, he makes all kinds of recorders (folk ones too) and both German and Baroque ones. I could still move to Baroque anytime.
I'm playing both baroque and german Recorders. There are many beautiful old instruments with a vivid soulful sound that i ve found, and i va made theam a part of my recorder family at home :) this is the reason, why i play it. And little differences in fingering are a godd training. I`m using different tunings on my guitars as well, each has its charms. Maybe this is, why i#m not confused. its just: "oh, my brown Tuju Alto - and i play german" - "oh, my baroque Schneider - and i play baroque automatically.
Inspired by your videos, I started playing recorder, duets with my daughter. We got a very good priced German wooden recorder for her, and a plastic Baroque Yamaha. The two alto recorders sound funny when played together I think this may explain the issue. 😅
Used to play on german but i realized how hard it is too use on passages with more accidentals so i got a baroque recorder and i never regretted it one bit
What did I learn today? TWO types of recorder! Back in 2001 I was walking a pilgrim route in Spain. It was my 50th birthday and I spotted a "cheap and cheerful" recorder in a Spanish "100Pts" (think Poundland) store. Joking with the young Swiss and Chilean ladies I was walking with I told them of the horrors inflicted on UK school kids - the weekly recorder class, every mouthpiece soused in Dettol. When we got back to where we were staying they produced a cake with a candle, a bottle of Cava and . . . . a recorder! I was taught to play "au Clair de la Lune" and that was about the limit of my recorder playing for 20 years until Covid's first lockdown when it was dragged out of the back of a drawer. I've been getting better at it but it always sounded a bit "off" - mind you I now wear hearing aids - and now I know why . . . . it's a German style recorder! Thank goodness I've moved on to fife and penny whistle but now I'm thinking, should I buy a new, English, recorder as well?
Did you do it? Lots of options to suit every budget! But if going budget, one should stick to the major manufacturers. There is a lot of off-brand junk out there.
Delightful! Most of my recorders are Baroque but there is one German Soprano. Usually it lives alone in my bag so I can practice fingering (silently) wherever I am waiting. Silent practice doesn't require "correct" fingering for the "German" instrument. And I am aware of some of the fingering difference in case I do need to play it with good solid German fingering (such as when my medieval consort meets and they have German recorders..... It's not worth arguing about! The point is PLAY and be happy.
Since I started again playing the Recorder after 45 years I did so with the baroque system. I instinctly tried to play the german system I learned as a kid but I got used to the baroque fingering now and it was the right choice.
The instrument I studied in school is the Clarinet, and I find the German fingerings for C and D scales map nicely to my muscle memory for low F-scale and G-scale on Clarinet. Given that I have 0 interest in being a professional Recorder-player, and just want to mess around playing tunes with my kids, that and the whole "but what about Bass-recorders? Those are only in Baroque!" confirms my choice of the German recorder fingering 👍
As a string player my self, you always add an extra figure to sharp something and you do it by putting a half step on the string, so I think he made the German recorder for himself to understand better, I get it pretty well
I don't know where these people live that there are no baroque recorders, but I live in GERMANY and you can get baroque recorders in a normal music store, if it's a larger one. Some of the mom-n-pop shops may not have them. Second thing is that a folk version of the recorder already exists. It is called a whistle and it's fantastic--also for teaching children. Whistle was my first wind instrument, and now I play recorder, clarinet, saxophone and duduk just fine. As it turns out, people can learn multiple fingering systems.
An F# on a Baroque-fingered recorder is still sharp and ideally, you need to add part of the pinky. I did learn at first on a German instrument and it wasn't difficult to switch to Baroque and eventually become a professional player. When I first learned the recorder I was very little, coming up from the flutophone, and I think that using a German instrument for a few months did no harm. On the other hand, I recently bought some German system instruments because if you play two recorders at once, the German system instruments allow an extra, in-tune note not available on the Baroque instrument (which I really prefer to call English since actual Baroque instruments did not historically use the system we use today) by using your left pinky. So in my mind, it does have a legitimate use.
Im sorry but I REALLY love how her shirt matches her eyes
Never noticed, pretty neat though
Simp she married...
@@Rekless_Z A female simp? Really?
not to forget her earrings
@@Rekless_Z simp... ok but I’m a teenage girl so-
I felt cheated when I discovered baroque system. In primary schools we only play German because it's "easier". Now I play an alto baroque. Thanks for the video Sarah. Cheers!!
I started out on the German system but decided it will be better to play the Baroque recorder. Must say that moving from the German to the Baroque was very easy.
Yes🤝
Yes🤝
. I am waiting for a barok recorder.
I wish i could say the same.... My transition is being very hard.... I dont intend to abandon the german system but i want to know both.... But still the baroque is being quite frustrating...
I’m still having a hard time. That being said, 30 years of muscle memory are not easily overcome (even if I barely played in 20 of those years), but I now have access to enoug Soprano and Alto recorders in Baroque fingering that I really should concentrate on that. (Also, new notes we didn’t use in those pieces when I was little to learn, yay!)
I learned the German system in school, when I was 8 years old. They probably thought the F would be easier for young kids. When I got back to playing the recorder a few years ago, I thought myself the baroque recorder after reading about the difference between the two. It took maybe a day or two to get used to the baroque F, and now the German F feels weird.
Imagine buying a German soprano recorder, watching this video two days later and agreeing that the Baroque recorder is probably a better choice as it's more future-proof despite the odds of playing other types of recorders with the limitations being close to zero.
Guess who's going to get a Baroque recorder?
omg same
Hahahaha that’s funny
Yeah that's me
Same
if overcame me just yesterday.
When I had recorder lessons as a kid, my parents bought me a baroque recorder by mistake (they didn’t know, there were different ones) only to find out, that the entire class played the German system and they had to buy me another one, because it sounded weird and to be honest, 6-year-old-me was too confused playing differently than everyone else. 16 years later, I bought myself a beautiful baroque tenor and I am very, very happy with that.
I so love watching people talk about things they're passionate about
welcome to Team Recorder 😄❤️
The only thing I use a German recorder for is when I'm playing two at once, where it's often useful.
I started playing the recorder in primary school and I only knew about the Baroque fingerings when I watched your videos about a year ago. Then I just realised that in school, we were taught the German system. I wanted to try the Baroque fingering so I bought a new recorder. It was definitely challenging to do the F and F sharp - I kept doing the German fingering. But with practice, I feel more comfortable now playing on my Baroque recorder. I also realised the curved windway sounds way better than the straight windway. Your videos are very encouraging and a great place to learn. Thank you, Sarah! 😊
Yea I found my old recorder from primary and found out it's German style lol
I got one at a thrift shop not knowing what German fingering even was and thought everything was just baroque. So I thought my recorder was damaged when it didn't sound right.
Best random TH-cam rabbit hole ever!
Thanks, you tought me that I was trying to play "german notes" with my "baroque" recorder ! :P
I'll go to bed less stupid tonight ! hahaha !
“Like an oboe and we wouldn’t want that” 😂😂😂😂😂
Someone I know bought my daughter a German one, and explained it away as recorders being unreliable. This was a person who also played flute, so... I corrected the situation, and even though it's easier to start for her little fingers, I practice on my tenor with her, so she sees that daddy has to stretch, too, and can still practice the same e,f,g,f,e without too much difficulty. She loves her nightly music lessons, and she's learning the names of the notes. Yes, she's on a soprano, so she's really associating fingering with the notes, which baffles her if I play alto; she hears the same note, but see me finger it differently. However, she's become used to it, is developing her ear, and we're starting to work on the staff (treble clef).
Thank you so much for this video!
Btw, I love the flute and the sax, and I do play the practice chanter, so I get different fingerings, but I also play guitar, and use different tunings all the time, so, variety, right?
Ta!
It is so good you are playing with and encouraging her.
Cool, why nightly music lessons? Don't you mean eveningly?
When I started on the recorder, I didn’t know there were two “flavours”. I thought the difference was just having double holes. When I restarted again with a good brand recorder and with proper baroque bore, I was determined my F’s were like they ought be. In a few months my F’s sounded great, but I had developed a tennis arm. According to AAFAB in Utrecht, this is a typical problem with recorder players.
So take it easy when you switch to baroque. There are a few therapists online who have a website with exercises so you can train your right arm (there are more tennis players than recorder players). Start slow, and with a small recorder. If needed, you can use a thumbrest. Two or three times a day practicing 5 minutes is better that 30 minutes in one go.
Don’t worry, soon you’ll be able to use your middle finger like it should be... ;)
I have a German system Bass. It's an absolute beast of an instrument that is mostly decoration now.
Learned German system in school - we're talking about mid 90s -, never ever knew there were different flutes NOR another fingering system altogether.
Only recently, when I decided to get back playing an instrument (I was in a wind band which I dropped out from due to time constraints), deeming my saxophone too bulky, and a concertina too expensive to just give it a try, I picked the recorder as my "main" instrument.
So I got back playing the "old, boring, classic" German Soprano. Had bought an Alto too, years ago. Lovely. Wanted a Tenor, though, and couldn't find one with German fingering.
Buying a "cheap" Soprano with Baroque fingering to "test" the system, accidentally got a Sopranino (because Amazon descriptions, very often, are translated extremely badly by people who have no idea about the topic they are translating).
So, I decided to get a full set of recorders (in ABS/plastic, 'cause I can rough them up and be less concerned about maintenance), from sopranino to bass, but... they do not seem to exist with German fingering!
So I started learning Baroque.
After 30 years playing German, must say Baroque is counterintuitive on some passages (going from E to F, as to say my main issue, where German still feels superior), but many melodies became easier, and even high notes feel... easier to play.
Now that I got to know it, I do think Baroque *is* someway superior to German... I just have to re-set 30 years of "bad" habits - and get my new full set of recorders!
Thank you Sarah for an intelligent and concise explanation of this matter. I played recorder (Baroque fingering) as a child & adolescent, and fell out of playing at that time. I'm working at picking it up again. Now, as a science teacher retiree, I find myself with little formal musical training working part-time in a parochial school and leading the kids (pre-school to 8th grade) in singing and music appreciation (no one else to do it - talk about the proverbial deer in the headlights!). The principal wants me to teach our 2nd & 3rd graders basic recorder. A generous donation of Baroque recorders by Chicago's classical WFMT radio (Baroque type) is making this possible. Dire predictions on-line about why German fingering is necessary for teaching children now do not faze me. I'm subscribing to your channel, will surely watch more. Thanks for your info!
Anyone who says German fingering is necessary for teaching children is speaking out of pure ignorance. How has your class gone?
I've waited an eternity for this topic! Thank you!
Just discovered your channel and I want to tell you that this video in particular has saved my life! I learnt the Baroque system in school (though of course was never told that) and only discovered that there were alternative ways to play F a few years ago when I started as a primary music teacher. But I never understood the issues about the different systems etc. Only my ears kept telling me that "hey something is not quite right with the tuning of this new fingering". I kept teaching my children anyway because they seemed to understand faster with the "easier" fingering. But now I really have to examine the kinds of recorders they're buying and make sure everyone stays Baroque!
Thank you so much! You're very entertaining and engaging!
Thank you for existing. I keep having various questions about the recorder and I keep ending up at this channel for the answers.
I think the German system was never really designed to play much more than play in C major/ A minor. It was designed to be the first contact with an instrument.
It was designed to have the same fingering system as the flute!!!! -.-
@@VitalijKaramakov which flute? I think most white notes share same fingering. But high C, high D and most accidentals are completely different.
The German/modern fingering is more logical. The fingerings are different, and if you know well your stuff it's not difficult to play #/b by playing with 2/3 covered hole.
Excellent. Everything I need to know. DId baroque as a kid. Gonna stick with it for a new purchase 60 years later!!
Good to know that clarinets aren’t the only instruments who rival two systems!
At school I had one year of recorder lessons when I was 9. It was a german style recorder and of course I didn't get far so it sufficed. When I was 23 I had enough money to take lessons myself and I transferred to a baroque system recorder. It was very easy to adjust. I never stopped playing after that, still do. It is a wonderfull instrument. But now I also have started to play the violin, I think it is so easy if all the notes would be in the right order, like on a string. No fork grips! IDEAL!
Thank you for making me realise my sixième (collège, years 11 to 14 usually) music teacher made us learn German fingering on Baroque recorders. It did take trying to remind myself of the F's heavy Belle et Sebastien main theme for realising as well.
Press F to pay respects
Sarah, if you're interested in my opinion: I think one should consider the German recorder an instrument of its own. Related to the original recorder, but not the same. Just like the tin whistle is not the same as a recorder, even though they are both tubes with finger holes and a fipple you blow into. Actually, in addition to the large fourth hole, Harlan's recorders had another thing in common with whistles: They were originally transposing instruments. The first recorder Harlan had made was an alto in E. Later, recorders in D and A were added. Until a German edict (Nazi German, actually) forbade the making of any new recorders pitched in anything but C and F. Hindemith's recorder trio for the Eutiner Musiktag is written for three transposed Harlan-type recorders. Which were better quality back then. Not only did Hindemith play one himself when the trio was performed for the first time, Friedrich von Huene also praised the original Hedwiga, which had a German fingering, and how well the third octave F sharp on the Hedwiga alto sounded. As you know, this note is difficult to play even on a recorder with baroque fingering as it requires covering the bell with one's knee. Or some kind of stand, whatever.
I thought I had a baroque recorder! It turns out, after 4 years of playing it, it’s a German! THAT’S why my tone was always off!
Thanks for the wonderful vid!
Lol
Same!! I just bought 2 recorders since my old recorder was old and it was a German. But im a pretty quick learner and im pretty sire I can get used to baroque.
Thank you for this informative video. I’ve always purchased baroque for my students but considered buying German this year thinking it would be easier for them but your video changed my mind! Thank you!!!
Sarah - charming as usual and the video is full of lots of "useful" information ;) Love the summary "You've taken one problem and just shifted it somewhere else". Brilliant!
Actually, if one isn't trying quite as hard as Sarah is to offer even-handed opinions, what the German system does is to take a single problem that isn't really very problematic at all and shift it to at least three other places in such a way that it becomes a significantly worse problem in all of them.
Don't hang me out to dry, but I play a lot of folk music, mostly in the keys of D and E minor. So I converted my recorder to open fingering. Still sounds like a recorder but plays like a tin whistle, plus of course it's got a lead-in note which is useful. So I can see the sense of the German system just like I can see the sense of Albert system clarinets.
Hi, This sounds interesting. I have a recorder with German fingering that I would like to be able to play like a tin whistle. Would you mind sharing how you converted yours, please?
Birgit Nora Gourani, if you have a soprano german fingering recorder, by permanently closing with a tape the thumb hole and the upper first hole (left index finger hole), you can play it as a tin whistle using the rest of the 6 holes.
Thank you so much for this video! I (like so many others) learnt the recorder in school (back in the 1990s), using the german style. My step-daughter plays the french horn, but is also now learning the recorder at school. I had a go on it and couldn't work out why the scale sounded slightly off, then realised she has a baroque recorder. Until now, I never even knew there two different styles!
Similarly, I've seen Native American-style flutes, six holes (no thumb hole). These are each tuned to the Pentatonic Minor scale in a particular key--fun for improv, but very inflexible.
I've made a few of those and oh dear! I've never really improvised anything before, but with those it's so easy to sound good. And that newly acquired confidence to improvise carried on to the recorder. And hopefully I can bring it to my main instrument as well, the piano. It really pays to learn and play multiple instruments. You pick up skills and knowledge that carries over very well.
Some Native American-style flutes have only five holes and those are ONLY tuned to the pentatonic minor scale, but the ones with 6 holes can be a little more flexible than that--the ring finger on your left hand (3rd hole) is always covered to stay in pentatonic minor, but you can mix it up to make different notes!
I've got a really weird one that's tuned to a diatonic major scale...it's basically a whistle that looks like a Native American flute but with less range (only an octave and a half). Trying to figure out what to play on it!
played bassoon. never thought i’d love the recorder so much. and suddenly realizing a bassoon is just a recorder with a reed.................. 🤔. then they added keys. oddly it was you talking about the Eb that made realize this.
you could split the difference with a baroque bassoon!
I recently started playing recorder and am really enjoying it. I started with a Yamaha soprano (German fingering) and loved the ease of the E F G transitions. Got a German style alto and like it too and it works for me since I generally play in F major, G minor and Bb major on it. I’d be happy to get a baroque alto at some point in the future though
HAHAHA OF COURSE IT WAS A GUITAR PLAYER!! 😂 (another guitar player here)
I had no idea about these two systems, so when I switched from a plastic Yamaha to my new Moeck wooden recorders today, I was so confused and had to figure out new fingerings by trial and error.. Now it all makes sense!! And yay, my new recorders have the baroque system, phew!! Thank you, Sarah!
I think Moeck used to make a German-fingered bass in their Rondo line. At least they still publish a fingering chart for it on their website.
And of course back in the day, the Moeck Tujuflöten of all sizes could, I think, be had with either fingering.
Thanks for this video. There's not much in-depth online discussion about German vs Baroque.
I was raised a clarinetist by a professional clarinetist and music professor--- and I ended up in the Air Force Band playing clarinet and playing the Alto sax in the dance band---and later teaching clarinet at the university level.
The first recorder I picked up was a Hopf soprano with German fingering and of course I was very used to playing the non-forked F like with the clarinet---and so I could move around fast on the thing without using the fork F.
With me and my Dad's vast library of clarinet music I started playing all of it on my wooden recorder---you just have to raise the low clarinet notes below middle C up an octave. There's a treasure trove of recorder music in clarinet music!! And plenty of beautiful Duets for Two Clarinets---and easily played on recorder.
I upgraded to a Woodi german recorder but really need to get a high quality German recorder---and Moeck makes a couple "professional" models---Flauto Rondo models with german fingering.
German system does match clarinet, sax, flute in that 123|45 to 123|4 is a semitone, but oboe and bassoon have a tone between 123|45 and 123|4. On oboe, it's F♯ (where flute, sax, upper clarinet have F♮) and on bassoon it's B♮ (where lower clarinet has B♭). Bassoon also has cross-fingerings galore, possibly more than other woodwinds, so baroque recorder isn't anything strange. (I ended up playing bassoon in an army band.)
I'm sticking with baroque, but understand full well that there is a place for German. I have a soprano and alto Venova (dodgy plastic recorders with sax mouthpieces). They use German fingering, and it drives me crazy!
I started with a recorder with german system to transfer it later to my medieval bagpipe which uses the same fingering and it helped me a lot :)
If you want to eventually move on to flute or oboe, the Baroque/English fingering is very much the right one and most advantageous to learn. Even the Bassoon follows it quite a lot, but watch out for that thumb there. I actually became a pianist and string player after learning the recorder really well, and learning to read music. The recorder is a wonderful, underrated instrument. I stillplay and have a mixture of better plastic and wooden recorders (esoecaiilytenors and trebles)
'esoecaiilytenors' Had two read that twice... 🤣🤣
Welcome to the clarinet world. Here also exist two systems. The german and the international used Boehm system...
Squidward has entered the chat
Well there are a few differences. The German system clarinet is older and is used in Germany and sometimes Austria. Professional players in classical orchestras in Germany and Austria always play on German system clarinets. And there is a third system: the reform boehm
I played soprano recorder in our church recorder orchestra for about 12 years. I started with Baroque recorder and after about ten years moved to German. I think it was only due to Irish whistle, which I started to play at that time. It was more natural to change these two instruments. I do not think F is easier on German or F# (of Fis as we call it) is easier on Baroque. These are just different movements which are of similar dificulty. It is even not so difficult to rebuild one to another with drill and a bit of photoplastic. (Do not try with wooden or expensive recorders. :))
For more than 25 years I had a trio of Moeck Tuju Baroque recorders, Soprano, Treble & Tenor, but could never afford a matching Bass - the only ones appearing on the second hand market were end blown - wrist breakers for me. Finally my wife bought me a matching Bass with a very nice crook head, oblivious of the fact that it was German fingering. However , I quickly realised that as I was going to have to teach my eye-to-finger system to work from the Bass clef anyway, it's actually no problem at all , the only real drawback is that the single F key means I really can't get a bottom F sharp!
I have 2 recorders, one is German and the other Baroque. I must confess I always preferred the German system cause I've been taught with that one... But is is totally true that it has a lot of limitations.
Thank you so much my son is moving up and his teacher said the German fingering is preferred but I can find one in my town. So we are.planning to buy a Yamaha tenor baroque recorder.
That shirt and those earrings really bring out your eyes.
OMG all those years as a kid, when I would play the recorder, I instinctively added those fingers you were taking about to fix the tuning, and never realized my recorders were in a non standard tuning! And I'm 40! Well better later than never 😅
Thank you, it was a great video 👍
In 1990 my mother toured a recorder factory in Germany, and she brought back for me a very fine wooden recorder she had purchased at the factory. I loved the gift, but whenever I'd play the recorder the F would be so out of tune I could not stand it. In my mind this instrument must have been a factory reject, so I tossed the recorder. Many times over the coming years my mother would talk about this recorder she had carried all over Europe for me, like it was the most precious gift she had ever given me. I never told her I had tossed it. A few years ago I came to learn that German fingering differed from Baroque fingering,. Doh! I laughed and I cried when I realized I had tossed my most precious gift in vain.
I would simply never toss a gift in the first place.
@@amj.composer at one point in my life, I relocated, and all of my worldly possession needed to fit in the bed of a compact pickup truck. Difficult decision were made about what to keep.
@@Chris.Brisson oohh fair enough :(
Don't be too hard on yourself. You did good.
In Germany the idea is, that these are for small children to begin on. They usually play simple melodies in Cmajor and tend to avoid the second octave for quite a while. Then if they continue learning, they "graduate" to a "proper" recorder with baroque fingering.
So I'm not surprised you can find some models (there are people who will buy them, so why not make them), but not the handmade expensive professional grade instruments, as the people who buy those will have switched anyway.
Hello Sarah, this was a very interesting video.
Reading here and there, I get the impression that baroque fingering is always better.
The real reason German fingering hasn't disappeared yet is that school teachers can be... let's say "set in their habits".
Also, most of them in most schools are not going to teach any recorder tune that is not extremely basic.
As a consequence, manufacturers of cheap recorders will always go for the German fingering because it is the one that actually sells.
Personally I got rid of my old German soprano all too happily and got my Yamaha 300 instead.
Subbed and set the bell to alert me when your next performance occurs. I didn't know the recorder was a real instrument but now I do!
Note that the Trinity recorder exams only allow Baroque recorders to be used. The ABRSM and LCM recorder exams are silent about the types of recorders that can be used.
Indeed it was Edgar Hunt of Trinity who in the 1930s persuaded the German recorder makers to start producing inexpensive English-fingered recorders for use in UK schools. It figures that Trinity would be continue to be very specific on this point, since Hunt worked very hard to oppose the adoption of German fingerings in British schools.
Thank you for posting this ☺️
When I was 7 my mother and I learned to play the recorder together (mother and child class). I played on a baroque and she on a German recorder (hers even hadn't double holes) but that was never a problem and I always thought it was just a different system. Until recently, when I started playing again and bought a new recorder (baroque of course).
I had that problem before. Everything began to change when after six years of using the German style, I switched to the barroque one. The first six months were complicated, until I finally began to use the alto recorder and the other ones. The good thing was that I only used the german fingering with my soprano recorder. The confusion was less.
Absolute fabulous channel, lovely way of clear and entertaining communication. Lost your channel but found it back true the bass. Keep it up.
Edgar Hunt (in 'The Recorder and Its Music) suggests that Harlan had erroneously believed that the F should have been in tune with 012345 and "believed that Dolmetch's ear rather inaccurate" (p. 123). The whole German/baroque phenomenon rests on a guitarist who, without knowledge of the recorder, created a system based on "this stupid mistake [and] was the beginning of recorders 'with German fingering', which are still manufactured in large numbers ... except, fortunately, in England" (ibid.). Here in Japan, both systems are used. My child's teacher taught the 012345 fingerings while the kids were using baroque instruments!
Baroque for me. Always. Thanks for sharing 🙋♂️
We learned to play the Flutophone in grade school and I think the fingering is similar to that of a German recorder. Joy! I found a German recorder (plastic) here in Thailand.
Thank you Sarah for another very informative video. After a bit of research I bought my first recorder last month. I intended get a baroque recorder, but then I fell in love at first sight with the transparent blue plastic Yamaha and the only one available on Amazon was German so I HAD to get that one :-) I wanted something inexpensive and fun, and actually I love it to bits! But I understand your points and you are right of course. My next (alto) will be Baroque though. Looking forward!
They make the blue Yamahas in Baroque! Get that one too!
@@reeser8 there has been some development.. I annoyed myself with the shrill sound of that soprano and decided to get the Yamaha resin tenor instead. It's wonderful! Like a where have you been my entire life kind of feeling. I'm in love with the sound and feel like practicing all the time! :-)
I thought I was going mad playing in G with that F# being so sharp! I am now at piece and buying a baroque recorder. Enlightening.
I am a baroque recorder person, I think basic notes are harder especially F, but if you know how to finger it and know how to keep your fingering properly, you can think it’s easier.
Note: Renaissance style recorders often have a few alternate fingerings you need to use to play in tune. For instance the low F# needs 3 fingers, the C# uses just the thumb, the D uses no fingers (i.e. the fingerings for D is "Drop the recorder"). Some of the notes in the second octave also require additional shading.
I have a matched set that was made by Thomas Prescott that uses the same "alternate" fingerings on all sizes so that once you learn the system it works on all of them.
My point here is that having to use alternate fingerings is not automatically bad, if you get a return in sound quality out of your investment for the time it takes to learn it.
I think the closest thing to a "name" for this system is Gnassi fingering, based on one of the first historical recorder teaching books.
I'd learned to play recorder in school as a child and no one ever said anything about there being anything but the one style (which was German). I liked playing the recorder, so I did take it a little further than most of the kids. When handed a baroque recorder in high school I did NOT adjust very quickly, I had way too much old (and early) muscle memory for that.
But I had taught myself to play whistles in the meantime, and I didn't find it confusing at all like you suggest, that there's a different third down there.
i love to play everything xD
i think both fingering systems have positive and negative things, so i use both, i choose the system depending on what im playing...
much of the folk and asian repertoires is better to play using the german system
while "traditional recorder european repertoire" feels more confortable in the baroque system....
some asian and folk tunes are easier to play in the baroque system and some western pieces are also easier in the german system.... so i dont really focus on the system, but on the aplicability! 😁
I took recorder lessons for about two years in around 1st/2nd grade (don't really remember for how long exactly) and your videos make me wanna pick it up again after not having played it at all in like 11 or 12 years
This actually remind me of my primary school days where learning to play the recorder is an essential part of our music lesson, along with singing certain songs. That was in China and about 20 years ago. What we used were plastic recorders, and those were for the German system, which I had totally forgot or failed to noticed before I watched this!
FYI primary schools in China use assigned textbooks so only several sets there, and in one state every single school uses the same thing. (I'd say 2 or 3 sets for the whole country maybe but not very sure). So this means millions of Chinese around my age actually learnt how to play a recorder in primary school to a certain level. I guess who ever designed our music textbook just believe that German fingering should be easier for kids, or maybe they are cheaper. Actually not many can play it properly in my class... Those plastic recorders were used a lot as a sword in fight though as you can imagine XD
I'm getting an Alto Baroque Recorder after trying to play the clarinet. My instructor, who's going to be teaching me it, suggested I switch to the recorder as it's easier to play. My asthma and Bells Palsy makes playing clarinet a bear, so we're gonna see how this new choice works out. Thanks for the videos! Makes for an interesting watch!
second video of you that I see and really enjoy it, I'll go with baroque, thanks for guide me.
Hie Sarah thanks for the informative video. I use a German Yamaha Soprano. There are some alternate fingerings one can use to get well tuned notes. Typical notes are Eb 2nd octave, F# 2nd octave, Bb to C 2nd octave, C#, D, Eb 3rd Octave
Interesting! I was going to say, the problem with the German fingering being "compatible" with folk music instruments is that D diatonic instruments like the Irish whistle require an F# for that fingering which is actually more compatible with Baroque fingering on a Soprano/Descant recorder.
I stand by the opinion that it's mildly useful to have recorders of varying fingering systems around, including the German system. Sometimes not having to fork low F makes easy passages that would otherwise have been very tricky. Sometimes you have a use for an alternate fingering for E in the first and second octaves for the sake of timbral trills, which the German system gives you. I can't speak for any other models, but my Yamaha German soprano can produce a third octave C# without having to cover the bell, which can be used in a trill with the D above. It also has a very pleasant E/G# multiphonic. On the other hand, sometimes you need to trill between G and Ab in the second octave, in which case the baroque way is smoother. Most of the other fingering differences between baroque and German make no difference in my experience, as someone who has played both systems a lot. As for intonation discrepancies, I have found that those exist between any two recorders from the same system, to no particularly lesser degree than they exist between recorders of different systems. I *always* need to listen for the need to make adjustment no matter what I'm playing and what I'm tuning against.
Friedrich von Huene, one of the pioneers of the relaunch of the recorder in the 20th century, pointed out the same: With German fingering, you can play third octaves C# (or F#, in the case of an alto recorder in F) without covering the bell. Third octave F# on an alto is needed for Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 4, which is why Von Huene insisted that the recorders be able to play it. To put it with him: "It [the recorder devised by him] was sufficient for Hindemith, and it was sufficient for us." Maybe the German fingering's bad rep is partially due to the fact that superior quality recorders are no longer built with German fingering. This used to be the case at one point however, the Herwiga, named after recorder maker Herwig, was a gem with German fingering. I hated the recorder I had as a child, a Moeck entry-level soprano with German fingering and no double holes -- and yet we were expected to play pieces with up to four sharps or flats with it. That's not fair.
@@DellaStreet123 I figure the fact that the original rationale for the German system doesn't seem to take the recorder seriously has fed a self-perpetuating cycle where recorderists and recorder makers aren't inclined to take the German system seriously in return.
@@sashakindel3600 This is quite possible. Harlan definitely knew what he did, but decades later he tried to shift blame for the "faulty" German system to the Bärenreiter company, which used to be big in business selling both recorders and sheet music for recorders -- and he kept revising his story over and over again, which makes me think that Peter Harlan might have had the same issues with the truth his brother Veit did.
I just ordered a German soprano recorder as my first music instrument last night and saw this
Back when i wanted to take keyboard/piano lessons, the music-school pushed very hard on getting a year of "Algemene muzikale vorming" (General Musical Development) wich ment learning to reconize measures, learing about different kinds of instruments,.. (and more) and PLAYING THE "Blokfluit" (recorder).
And because they expected most of us to go to different kinds of instruments, we used German fingering-style.
Those of us that bought the recorder trought the school got one from Yamaha.
What a sweetheart. Thank you. Very illuminating. It is fun to go forward with eyes open.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks, Sarah. After watching several of these, the question about German vs. Baroque came up naturally. So, how bout this: by "folk music" our friend Peter had in mind mostly tunes in C, which will use F natural a lot more. If you play tunes in G and D (Irish and Scottish, for instance), the F# will be more important. I am watching these instead of practicing; do I get some extra credit anyway?....maybe?
It is not the important thing... but once upon a time Moeck made german system bass recorder (I know it because I already have it).
Hi Sara, I have some recorders and transverse flutes. I'm not a musician, just enthusiast, but some years ago I developed a neuritis of the radial nerve in my right forearm (because of diabetes), that made me quit practicing both transverse flute and recorder, i lost more than half of the strengh in my right hand. Now after exercising some years (weightlifting), I recovered most of the gripping strength but loose some fine dexterity, my pinky is still semi paralized. Playing the baroque seminotes is almost imposible, it's a lot easier for me to play a german one. Do you have any advice I could use to start practicing again? Some method that can improve my dexterity step by step, I would be so grateful. I am always learning a lot from your videos, although I am only an aficionado. Great video as always, hugs from Chile!!
Ok Cesar. You have serious right hand weakness. Myfirst suggestion is an old YFL Yamaha flute. vey soft keys and easy to play and cheap. My second suggestion is expensive. Try an oboe - "conservatoire" style. Oboes are actually very easy to "press" the right-hand fingers on, and you don't have to accurate as long as you can get them on, the "pads" and "key system" all do it for you. The compass isn't alot more than the descant recorder, but much easier to find the notes with a poor right hand. If ou want ot persist with the recorder, I suggest, going back to the beginningnand order "Tune a Day" book 2.
@@heathermcdougall8023 Why would you suggest an oboe and not a clarinet? Just curious. I'm considering clarinet
@@fluffy_chickadee The right hand on the oboe is easier to press the keys and the little finger is easier too and the position more natural. It's also thinner and easier to hold. The downside is the embouchure and getting decent reeds.Also the notes are the same, high up and low down, but they are NOT on the clarinet.
@@heathermcdougall8023 wow thanks for that reply
I am Italian and in schools they use the German system , I started learning the recorder ( I was 14 ) on that system out teacher was British , after many years I picked up the recorder again and learnt the Baroque system , by the way I play jazz ( not on this channel though )
Remember recoder day in elementary school?
A very special day for parents too
Switching from German system to Baroque recorder actually was very difficult for me, decades later. I had a mental block I think. In America, the "flutaphone" certainly caught the K-6 grade-school teachers.. and I now see them marketed as a "pre-band" instrument. I didn't at the time, but I was only 8 to 11 years old at the time. sigh. The flutaphone certainly fit my small hands at the time, but I wish they would have taught baroque system. A Yamaha y24b is almost the same cost as a flutaphone and related german fingering instruments for children. It even comes in colours.
I just now found out, that my very first childhood recorder is in German fingering. I always was taught the baroque fingering. This cheep old thing actually does sound good. Bit airy and the notes are generally high pitched, but beautifully soft. Only the fingering turns me mad.
Good points. I think one of the reasons why german fingering is still around and sells is because schools around the world prefer it simply because most students (and teachers of course) won't go beyond C mayor and perhaps F mayor at least for a few years - if they have more than a couple of years of music aducation - and probably won't play the recorder again after finishing school, so a linear instrument is easier for that short period.
That moment (0:42 ) when u peacefully watching Sarah and then a suddenly wild chromatic scale attacks :0
Too funny! 🤣
I bought my soprano without knowing it was german fingering 😭😭😭
Thank you. I only play German-style soprano Recorder. It's my 'thing'. It was the only one I could afford that I really liked.
Thank you for sending me the link.
I'm still used to the German one but I understand the difficulties that can come from it. I got a handmade plumwood (German) one from a Hungarian flutemaker, he makes all kinds of recorders (folk ones too) and both German and Baroque ones. I could still move to Baroque anytime.
I'm playing both baroque and german Recorders. There are many beautiful old instruments with a vivid soulful sound that i ve found, and i va made theam a part of my recorder family at home :) this is the reason, why i play it. And little differences in fingering are a godd training. I`m using different tunings on my guitars as well, each has its charms. Maybe this is, why i#m not confused. its just: "oh, my brown Tuju Alto - and i play german" - "oh, my baroque Schneider - and i play baroque automatically.
Inspired by your videos, I started playing recorder, duets with my daughter. We got a very good priced German wooden recorder for her, and a plastic Baroque Yamaha. The two alto recorders sound funny when played together I think this may explain the issue. 😅
Used to play on german but i realized how hard it is too use on passages with more accidentals so i got a baroque recorder and i never regretted it one bit
Where I grew up, schools only used the German system, Im now upgrading my instrument and suffering porting over to Baroque system now. 😅
What did I learn today? TWO types of recorder!
Back in 2001 I was walking a pilgrim route in Spain. It was my 50th birthday and I spotted a "cheap and cheerful" recorder in a Spanish "100Pts" (think Poundland) store.
Joking with the young Swiss and Chilean ladies I was walking with I told them of the horrors inflicted on UK school kids - the weekly recorder class, every mouthpiece soused in Dettol.
When we got back to where we were staying they produced a cake with a candle, a bottle of Cava and . . . . a recorder!
I was taught to play "au Clair de la Lune" and that was about the limit of my recorder playing for 20 years until Covid's first lockdown when it was dragged out of the back of a drawer.
I've been getting better at it but it always sounded a bit "off" - mind you I now wear hearing aids - and now I know why . . . . it's a German style recorder!
Thank goodness I've moved on to fife and penny whistle but now I'm thinking, should I buy a new, English, recorder as well?
Doooo itttt
Did you do it? Lots of options to suit every budget! But if going budget, one should stick to the major manufacturers. There is a lot of off-brand junk out there.
Delightful! Most of my recorders are Baroque but there is one German Soprano. Usually it lives alone in my bag so I can practice fingering (silently) wherever I am waiting. Silent practice doesn't require "correct" fingering for the "German" instrument. And I am aware of some of the fingering difference in case I do need to play it with good solid German fingering (such as when my medieval consort meets and they have German recorders..... It's not worth arguing about! The point is PLAY and be happy.
Sara, thank you sooo much for your videos. I swear I heard at 0:48 "... classical musicians and other salsa music use"! I'm like "Awesome"! Thank you!
Since I started again playing the Recorder after 45 years I did so with the baroque system. I instinctly tried to play the german system I learned as a kid but I got used to the baroque fingering now and it was the right choice.
I was starting to think the German F was so much easier but you have convinced me to keep to the baroque thank you
The instrument I studied in school is the Clarinet, and I find the German fingerings for C and D scales map nicely to my muscle memory for low F-scale and G-scale on Clarinet. Given that I have 0 interest in being a professional Recorder-player, and just want to mess around playing tunes with my kids, that and the whole "but what about Bass-recorders? Those are only in Baroque!" confirms my choice of the German recorder fingering 👍
As a string player my self, you always add an extra figure to sharp something and you do it by putting a half step on the string, so I think he made the German recorder for himself to understand better, I get it pretty well
Thanks Sarah. I love the Baroque Recorder.
I don't know where these people live that there are no baroque recorders, but I live in GERMANY and you can get baroque recorders in a normal music store, if it's a larger one. Some of the mom-n-pop shops may not have them.
Second thing is that a folk version of the recorder already exists. It is called a whistle and it's fantastic--also for teaching children. Whistle was my first wind instrument, and now I play recorder, clarinet, saxophone and duduk just fine. As it turns out, people can learn multiple fingering systems.
An F# on a Baroque-fingered recorder is still sharp and ideally, you need to add part of the pinky. I did learn at first on a German instrument and it wasn't difficult to switch to Baroque and eventually become a professional player. When I first learned the recorder I was very little, coming up from the flutophone, and I think that using a German instrument for a few months did no harm. On the other hand, I recently bought some German system instruments because if you play two recorders at once, the German system instruments allow an extra, in-tune note not available on the Baroque instrument (which I really prefer to call English since actual Baroque instruments did not historically use the system we use today) by using your left pinky. So in my mind, it does have a legitimate use.